Derrick Jensen: Post-doom with Michael Dowd
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- This conversation with Derrick Jensen was recorded in August of 2019. A leading eco-philosopher and ecocentric activist, Derrick is the author of many books, including "A Language Older Than Words", "The Myth of Human Supremacy" and "Endgame Vol 1 and Vol 2". His official website is: derrickjensen.org/ (Apologies for the fact that we had a problem with Derrick's video camera.)
Regenerative conversations exploring overshoot, grief, grounding and gratitude.
"I see the collapse of human civilization as the liberation of the planet."
"Neither my life nor the life of any other individual human or non-human is more important than the health of the biotic community." ~ Derrick Jensen
I love Derrick so much because I can relate to him that much. He is one of the few who can express the suffering of other species through words in his essays and talks.
He's one of those who gave me inspiration for Earthetics project: Learning how to function in ecosystems by breaking up with our egosystems eartheticseducational.org
As you know, I completely agree with you! :-)
It's inevitable, but not worthy of too much self abuse. Consider that bacteria are more prolific and necessary to life on this planet than humans and we start to plummet down the list of species considered important here.
What a lovely and beautiful human being you are Derrick.
Really grateful for this conversation and the many others I've listened to here
First time hearing/exposure to Robrert Jenson. Decency soaked man. Thank you
Love, rage, and sorrow... well said.
Thanks!
Man I could listen to this all day.
Hope without resistance is useless ... Fight we must, pass on the will, till we fall.
Thanks for posting.
Thank you! 🙌💚
Simple comment. I loved this. Thanks guys. Loved the alternative takes you had on so many things that hadn't occurred to me and some that had. Personally it has helped towards me getting my purpose and orientation back
Our pleasure!
excellent interview
" If nature was a bank , it would have been bailed out by now." Eduardo Galeano
Thanks Reverend Reality!!
I love so many of Jensen's ideas that I hate to doubt the one about a gazelle's last thirty seconds (56:15) (The notion reminds me of the film "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" in which a man hallucinates his escape as he is hanged.) Not long ago, the loud cries of a small bird alerted me to its struggle to escape the claws of a hawk that flew by me and landed just feet away. As the raptor began tearing its prey apart, the little bird's protracted screams conveyed agony so excruciating that I will never be able to forget them. Could the poor thing really be dreaming it was still flying?
I wanted to listen to this one again.
My good friend and I were both raised seventh-day Adventist as well, and had similar experiences of nature-focused childhoods. Since leaving the church, we were both separately drawn to more animist/pagan forms of spirituality. It’s interesting to note as well that the SDA church has a strong emphasis on the end-times, which definitely contributed to my collapse-consciousness from an early age. One of the main issues I take with Christianity (of MANY), is the way that fixating on the afterlife or future “new world” removes all responsibility to take care of THIS world. Why can’t bringing heaven to earth be an *active* process of love and ecological restoration, rather than passively waiting for the return of some guy in the sky?
Thanks for your post! Amen, and amen!! More good stuff along similar lines here: postdoom.com/resources/ and here: postdoom.com/conversations/
Wow! Me too. Doing it for the hummingbird. The bee. The doe.
I miss the frogs. The pain of humans seem so small comparison with the pain humans caused the biosphere.
Take away grain, help the earth and your health
Earth needs a massive human die-off. Any volunteers?
Yup... My wife, for one: thegreatstory.org/covid-legacy-pledge.html
No need. Humans just need to have one or no kids
I would like to know his opinion on near death experiences.
They're nothing but a lack of oxygen to the brain that produces hallucinations.
@@millabasset1710 Anoxia does not produce the same set of coherent hallucinations that the millions of Near Death Experiencers have reported.
@@Samsara_is_dukkha near death experience is more likely to be due to anoxia than because of the soul (whatever that is) magically departing the body and floating around looking at things
two people I would like to be. with at the end.
Wow, I'm deeply honored, brother!! On a related note, if you've not already seen it, my latest two-part video series, "Collapse in a Nutshell: Understanding Our Predicament" has garnered 125,000 views in 12 days (a first for me): ruclips.net/video/e6FcNgOHYoo/видео.html / Please join us, if you're so led: postdoom.com/discussions/ I also recommend the "post-doom" conversations and resources found here: postdoom.com
Love it.
Come onnnnnn collapse of civilization. The liberation of nature!
Life is consciousness and consciousness is he content and container of reality, in both time and space and beyond those concepts,. Cultural relativism not withstanding.
Big ole male-lol, that’s funny
when Derrick said that he is waiting for the collapse of civilisation and looking forward to it, I breathed a deep sigh of relief, profound relief because that is exactly how I feel, but I go one step further, I want humans to go extinct.
Whether you (or anyone) "wants" human to go extinct or not, we likely will in the not-too-distant future. Unfortunately, that will mean dozens, if not hundreds, of uncontrolled nuclear meltdowns. And it will probably take Earth 10-15 million years to recover.
Chernobyl is doing great right now. The area rendered uninhabitable is a vibrant and thriving forest. IMO the planet can survive most nuclear reactors going critical (so long as there’s no nuclear winter.) is there a particular reason why you mention reactors a lot? Maybe there’s information in missing? If so I’d love it if you point me in the right direction
@@kylesmith1601 it's a necessary logical outcome of the deepgreen world horizon. if you identify with the biosphere directly, you end up hating technology, and eventually just hating humans in general.
here's the thing these guys don't get - their deepgreen anprim conceptual apparatus is itself actually an historical product. we can't identify with the biosphere except through inescapably historical-anthropocentric coordinates. they are leaving themselves and us out of the picture when they do this. WE ARE THE FRAME OF THE PICTURE. nature does not know itself except through us.
so ya. it leads to NUCLEAR SCAWY even tho nuclear is demonstrably safer than any other fuel-based energy source we have available, and to posts like the OP of this chain, lusting for extinction. if you want this to happen - why are you still around?
humans beings are not the problem. capitalism on fossil fuels is the problem. that shit has to go. we don't have to go extinct to get there! how much do you have to hate yourself to want your species to go extinct?
@@postholocene "WE ARE THE FRAME OF THE PICTURE"
This is your problem. We are part of the picture. Just another species. We don't somehow make the world meaningful by being in it. Our mere existence doesn't endow the universe with some greater purpose. Life is valuable in itself, especially to the creature in particular. We don't make the forest valuable by appreciating it. The forest is valuable in itself.
And I don't want people to go extinct. IDK where you got that from.
Interesting stuff here, no doubt. Dowd's conversations with almost exclusively white, middle-class males who are now grieving for a dying world are at times engaging and even uplifting. But as a middle-aged person of colour whose ancestors were torn away from their homes to be enslaved I find these talks somewhat nauseating. Indigenous peoples and brown-skinned peoples of the world have been experiencing immeasurable loss and grief for centuries. Those peoples have endured centuries of deprivation and exploitation by the colonial- industrial machines and systems created by the 'white' world. Now, in discussions such as these, materially comfortable men sit around lamenting the dying of the light. We, by contrast, can only celebrate the destruction of what will surely be the final 'great' imperial project of these such homo sapiens.
amen.
1. I don't hold him responsible for his ancestors colonial past, anymore than I hold my German friends responsible for their grandparents WWII atrocities (I'm Jewish btw, so ya, I'm pissed about the past too). 2. Nauseating? Dowd is devoting his life to the grim/heartbreaking subject of post-doom. He's putting his whole heart into being of service.
@@purposeguidesinstitute7652 He has benefitted from the colonial present just as you and I have. This shit never stopped, the first world just figured out how to keep doing it through economics.
And as for nauseating - well, he is and does remain a liberal. Born on the backs of billions, blind to the carnage his life has required and perpetuated, complicit in future-eating extinction pact, etc etc
Extinction consciousness is political consciousness for those of us not at the top of the world system. It is something that is being done to us - by liberals, their biosphere raping economic system, their bloodthirsty war machine, and their caste of econo-theologians. Framing this as a 'population overshoot' problem is inherently malthusian, idealist, and deprives the people who have struggled against this outcome of their dignity.
Acceptance is an incredibly privileged possibility. True acceptance only comes through struggle.
@@purposeguidesinstitute7652 Fair point as to German descendents. The nazi period was a terrible and disgraceful moment in human history. Germany as a nation has moved on and its people in the main have tried to learn from their 'mistakes'. Dowd et al have also recognised the mistakes we have made as a species and, as you say, seem perfectly decent, well-meaning individuals. However, humans are continuing on their mistaken path of endless growth, massive consumption and general profligacy, and these processes largely remain in the control of affluent white men. All humans will eventually suffer terribly because of the actions and the controlling mindset of this obscenely wealthy and powerful minority. After 55 years on this planet I've become somewhat wearied listening to the same priviledged group of humans again telling me, "This is what you should think and do". Dowd's approach smacks of fatalism and resignation. I have step-children, and their futures matter to me. If they are to have viable futures the global leadership will require entirely different voices, a more inclusive and activist approach, and the recognition that the arrogant white, western mentality which caused the problems should not now be entrusted to try to solve them.
@@Lyra0966
Well they gonna try anyway, but they gonna fail.
As a biologist i like this guy so much, but also he's nuts. Fair enough - that religious pattern thinking is hard to kill.
Good, but for the f-bombs dropped by the preacher! Seems out of character.
Get over it. If that's the worst thing you can criticize me for, I'm doing good! 😃
@@thegreatstory It just effin' threw me! I'm with the general message.
@@geot4647 effin will be the name of the dance just before all hell breaks loose ... "effin the night away!"
"they severed their relationship with me because of my solidarity with women" is a pretty funny way to say " they canned me because I said trans folks shouldn't exist on my podcast a bunch of times".
I love how you used quotes in the first part but declined to use it in the second part, because you know that is not what he said.
@@davidquispe1584 did the salmon in your fridge tell you to say that?
@@sonofdamocles I live in South America, don't eat salmon. We do have people trying to export their technophilic, consumerist social ideologies to us though, so I find it funny how objections to it get exaggerated to "denying existence"
@@davidquispe1584 ah, you don't get the reference to Jensen being an insane person that believes the salmon in his fridge talks to him. I had gotten pretty deep into his works, and while of it is useful and insightful, he straight up is terf as shit and pretty out of his mind. Take what you will from that.
@@sonofdamocles then why don't you just take what you find useful and insightful? That's the thing that leads me to agree with him on most things, he calls things as he sees it and links things back toward the hatred of nature and the narcissistic ego drive of our society. Why do we want the same homogeneization that this culture pushes for in our worldviews and opinions, and in subjugating and excluding anyone who disagrees? I think we can all agree on interpersonal kindness and respect, and we know the trans issue gets blown out of proportion on both sides but it seems to usually be started by the TRAs. It was literally not even the point of this video yet you chose to deride and dismiss him on the sole basis of it.