@@danmesnard8761 I love mixing on it. You can make it sound great if the input source is good. Ofc, i'd prefer a more modern board, but if i get this as my main console for the night, i'm just as happy.
I have always used this approach and I teach my students that in order to foster a sense of teamwork and mutual respect among the players and the techs, it's a good idea to actually ask musicians what they prefer. If you don't know the band, don't know their music well, you might, as a sound engineer, be trying to change something that they consider to be part of the "signature" of their sound. It's the three C's of music; Cooperate, Communicate and Collaborate!
@adminallen On this console there is no "scrolling thru screens". Simply touch one button and the center channel with all of it's normal knobs for EQ and aux sends and dynamics are at your finger tips. That's the whole idea behind the M7CL. It's just like running an analog console. Albeit you have to do things one at a time but the same is true for an analog console.
@GrandMasterIV by default on must boards if there is a separate meter on a "meter bridge" for every channel it is going to be Post-fader. When you need to examine the Pre-fader level during the show you use the Solo button and you can compare input to output at a glance. The reason being is that channel input strips can clip at many points in the channel strip. The EQ and the fader are both Gain-stages and can be over saturated or clipped and you will be able to see that on a post fade meter.
@thegordian it makes a huge difference in the way the mic sounds or what I would call the timbre or character of the sound. It has nothing to do with S/N ratio. It just sounds better, just my opinion. But I know many engineers that feel the same way. The argument can also be made that unless you are using all 24bits of word depth, you aren't taking advantage of the processes like anti-aliasing that are a function of the A/D converter. Of course you still have to be careful to avoid clipping.
I mix on M7s all the time. The mic pre's aren't so great. We just picked up a profile and is now my preferred digital board...Analogue....? I use a Midas H2000 for FOH and a Midas XL250 on Monitors (just used at the Detroit Jazz Fest) and just love them both. When I can I go analogue...especially for festivals and on the fly gigs. I prefer digital for corporate gigs.
what a great range of desks by Yamaha, i mic on a 32 cahnnel LS9 at my local venue! i prefer a audix d6 or an akg d112 as a kick mic though, i agree with the 57 on the snare though! nice sounds man!
@adminallen I totally understand where you are coming from. I love the old analog consoles but I'm a real fan of the processing power that is built into a digital console! My first consoles were a Soundcraft 1S! But still, I'll take a digi console over an analog one everytime these days. Who has all the room for racks and racks of dynamic processing equipment that you have to carry around for an analog console? A Midas H3000 weighs like 800 pounds in it's roadcase and is eight feet long!
@calk1993 your right I am having a great deal of difficulty getting my head round the digital desk concept, But slowly getting there. I would much rather a venice, or a nice sound craft or Allen heath ml 5000 than a digital but slowly i am seeing the joys of a digital desk
the M7CL is approximately $25,000.00 USD. But you should check out the new CL1 consoles that were just released. Newly designed mic preamps by Rupert Neve and Neve's classic dynamic processors as part of the standard plug-in package. I understand they will be much cheaper than the M7CL but a much better console. Hard to believe I love the M7!
@gigbutt Very cool. Are you still running your subs out of your main sub output too? Or are you just doing it from your aux send for your subs out front? Basiclly, is it running out both your sub main outs and the aux out for the kick as well? and If so, I suppose the monitor console is running seperate than YOU are from your sub outs out of the FOH board. Im just a little confused, but really interested! Thanks man!- Jas.
We have two of the same consoles. I'm a bit hesitant to "heat up" the channels as much as you do, because rarely does anyone play as loud in "soundcheck" as they do during a full blown rock show with an audience. If you set them this high, when the drummer actually gets fired up you will look down and find that everything is on the verge of clipping. I use -12 for everything.
@gigbutt aliasing is a frequency related problem and has nothing to do with the input gain. the aliasing filter works for all signals the same way. if the mic pre's would sound differently if you add more gain, yamaha would've done a really bad job designing them.
I don't speak portuguese either but spanish, and i can understand something like " the kick it's sounding horrible , cut between 250hz to 800hz, then add some boost in 60hz or 80hz to have some subs , later a boost on 4khz withoput mistake you're gonna get a perfect kick sound " ... something like that ...
@azombiestool I use an Auxiliary Send.....we have a separate monitor mix console so I don't have to use any aux sends for anything but effects and subs. Sometimes guys want front fills on a aux send for instance. Same difference. But yeah, every aux send has a send pot on the channel and a master output as well. Yeah I'm sweeping thru the EQ with the +6dB gain to find the nasty little ring in the snare .....when I find the offending frequency I turn the EQ to -6dB and it's gone.
I have a hard time getting used to digital consoles I hate flipping through screens. I would take an analog console any day over digital. i just like to be able to reach for the eq right there without scrolling through a menu.
@gigbutt indeed it is a very important piece of information to achieve good gain structure. unfortunately I only learned of this on the last day of a festival, after using the M7 for an entire weekend! Yamaha should make it more obvious, or just use the standard dB scale...
It takes me a matter of 10 minutes to mix drums on an analog. Digital just seems to lengthy of a process. The yamaha M7CL is a great console but can become hard to adjust quickly and efficiently.
Well the CL1 looks like around $15K and then you need at least one Dante 32 input rack @$5K. Since the Rio comes in either a 32 channel or 16 channel you will need a 32 and a 16 to fill out the full 48 channel capabilities of a CL1.......seems like the CL1 fully kitted out for 48 inputs is going to run right around the same as a M7CL....but you sure get a hell of a lot more procession power for the bucks! My friend has one on tour right now and he prefers it over the PM5D!
Very nice! Do you have a seperate fader for your subs including a mute button? You were talking about getting that nice mid range for the kick, THEN turning up your subs to balance it back out. How were you controlling the volume of the subs particularly for the kick? Or is it just an overall master SUB fader? Also, what were you tweaking (I guess in the EQ it looked like) to get rid of that ring out of the snare? Thanks! -JAS.
@snapascrew there is no "Live Sound School" yet. Not until I open the Production Institute next year! :) Recording schools will teach you a thing or two about recording bro. Do you really think that will prepare you for live audio?? Good luck!
@gigbutt Actually scrolling was not the right terminology when i used it. What I meant was you have to select the channel and then go to the screen you can just reach for the knob on the channel console so to me it's slower especially in a multiband event. Just personal preference I spent my life on analog consoles like soundcraft 500B and series 2. I just don't think the digital stuff is all it's cracked up to be.
@snapascrew A recording school will teach you the basics of a sound board. But listen....consoles for live and consoles for recording have different features, they require a different approach to gain structure. There's a lot of difference and a lot that is shared. The real issue with live sound is dealing with all the other physics and properties of sound in a big reverberant room. Remember, a studio is a tightly controlled environment which is very unlike a big concert hall.
I gotta tell ya, I have been a live sound engineer for about 23 years and even though the new digital consoles pack a lot of power in a much smaller foot print, it is much easier and faster to get tones on an analog desk with some outboard gates, comps eqs etc. I can see everything at a glance, grab a knob instantly and no paging. I have spent a ton of time on many of the new digital desks but man, I still much prefer the navigation of analog....
+Johnnie Jackson I have online courses available at www.productioninstitute.com. This is a certificate course that you study on your own time, at your own speed. I would recommend the ALS201 course. It's 8 weeks long but in reality I let students take as long as they need to complete it. I hold weekly Google Hangouts with students and individual Skype chats on weekends. You'll learn more in two months than you would with two years of OJT!
saludos muy buen video very good video saludos de aka de mexico thanks for your contribution you utility two mics or one im using two mics y am is diferent soun my friend por que puedes invert to the fase. ok snare sound good man good aportation 100% heavy metal aaaa jejeje good mixing m7cl
What kind of microphone are you using for vocals? Also, most microphones can have a strong "proximity effect." The singer must keep their mouth very close to the microphone. Lips must be touching the mic in order for the mic to reproduce low-mid frequencies effectively. Close proximity makes fat vocals! If the mouth is far away, no fatness. Keep the microphone wire mesh blast screen clean by unscrewing them from mic and washing often. Encourage singers to "stay on the mic." Also, LS9 is not the greatest sounding microphone preamp in the world! Try reducing 2.5KHz by 3dB, and raise the channel volume very slightly to make the vocal sound a little fatter.
@digico66 OK cool. Thank you for translating.....Yeah for an expensive kick drum it sounded pretty bad and required a deep notch filter in the mid-bass range......I run into guys that have great drum kits and can play them very well but the one thing they can't do is TUNE them! lol
it makes no real sense to "heat up the mic pres" as you say. the adc convert to 24 bit, which means you'll have 144 dB snr. you don't need all of that.
Yeah, it's a brazilian writing horrible portuguese.. He said something like: "geez, that kick is horrible, cut between 250hz and 800hz, then boost between 60hz and 80hz for the sub, then a little boost around 4khz, no doubts, the kick will be perfect, and for some punch, use a noise gate." Like you don't know those guidelines..
+BigMoneyAl We ran out of time! You have to look at these vids in context. This is a real gig with musicians waiting to GET IT DONE. So, I really had to rush things along. I had a group of SAE students helping me film and edit this stuff and in the end, despite doing an excellent job, there were some errors in the editing and obviously the problem with audio only on one channel. I try to give students and those interested the best I can. But real world demands on our time simply don't allow one to go back and redo everything. I try to do the best I can. Let the haters hate. Let the inquisitive learn.
I have used the presonus, I didn't say I don't enjoy digital consoles, I do. But Im not gonna fork out 1-10k for one when Ive got a perfectly good GL2400 thats been paid off for years. Ill use a digital board if its supplied but Ill never buy one. haha.
@krazydrummer Yes I know...unfortunately it's very hard to fix without removing the video. It was a mistake I made when editing. Premier video editing software can be darn tricky for a lowly soundman....
eeew, this kick is horrible, makes a cutting rate between 250 hz and 800hz and then makes a pression between 60 and 80 hz going to the sub, and then rise up about 4khz, there is no mistake, the kick comes perfectly e to attack it comes a gate "facho?" ((fechado?)i guess it's closed) this is what i've got
credooooo esse kick ta horrivel faz uma taxa de corte entre 250 hz e 800 hz depois da uma pressao em 60 e 80 hz pra vim o sub e depois da uma levantadinha em 4khz naun tem erro o kick vemm perfeito e pra ataca ele um gate facho
Make sure to take your skull cap off around your ears before you mix the band live. God, that guy was an idiot. everything from 1 kHz and up was way too high. I had plugs of course. People were looking around funny and gritting their teeth a lot! Don't be that guy!
What mixer were you using?
Yamaha M7CL-48
Glad those consoles are gone for the most part lol
No kidding. They had their time and place, but the latest hardware from pretty much all console makers sounds sooo much better now!
Ric Wallace oh yea! my current fav is the Midas Pro2. Pretty tired of the SC48 these days. Rather pretentious UI imo.
@@danmesnard8761 I love mixing on it. You can make it sound great if the input source is good. Ofc, i'd prefer a more modern board, but if i get this as my main console for the night, i'm just as happy.
5 and a half years after you recorded this the information you relayed is still relevant today!! Thanks
I have always used this approach and I teach my students that in order to foster a sense of teamwork and mutual respect among the players and the techs, it's a good idea to actually ask musicians what they prefer. If you don't know the band, don't know their music well, you might, as a sound engineer, be trying to change something that they consider to be part of the "signature" of their sound. It's the three C's of music; Cooperate, Communicate and Collaborate!
i like the speed of your work, if only it was always this chill
fwiw, the numbering scale on the M7 meters is in dBFS. Unity gain (0dB) is at -20dBFS, ie. just before the orange LEDs light up.
@adminallen On this console there is no "scrolling thru screens". Simply touch one button and the center channel with all of it's normal knobs for EQ and aux sends and dynamics are at your finger tips. That's the whole idea behind the M7CL. It's just like running an analog console. Albeit you have to do things one at a time but the same is true for an analog console.
GREAT VIDEO! One of the best live sound videos I have seen on You Tube.
I love the text bubbles.
@GrandMasterIV by default on must boards if there is a separate meter on a "meter bridge" for every channel it is going to be Post-fader. When you need to examine the Pre-fader level during the show you use the Solo button and you can compare input to output at a glance. The reason being is that channel input strips can clip at many points in the channel strip. The EQ and the fader are both Gain-stages and can be over saturated or clipped and you will be able to see that on a post fade meter.
@thegordian it makes a huge difference in the way the mic sounds or what I would call the timbre or character of the sound. It has nothing to do with S/N ratio. It just sounds better, just my opinion. But I know many engineers that feel the same way. The argument can also be made that unless you are using all 24bits of word depth, you aren't taking advantage of the processes like anti-aliasing that are a function of the A/D converter. Of course you still have to be careful to avoid clipping.
I mix on M7s all the time. The mic pre's aren't so great. We just picked up a profile and is now my preferred digital board...Analogue....? I use a Midas H2000 for FOH and a Midas XL250 on Monitors (just used at the Detroit Jazz Fest) and just love them both. When I can I go analogue...especially for festivals and on the fly gigs. I prefer digital for corporate gigs.
what a great range of desks by Yamaha, i mic on a 32 cahnnel LS9 at my local venue! i prefer a audix d6 or an akg d112 as a kick mic though, i agree with the 57 on the snare though! nice sounds man!
@adminallen I totally understand where you are coming from. I love the old analog consoles but I'm a real fan of the processing power that is built into a digital console! My first consoles were a Soundcraft 1S! But still, I'll take a digi console over an analog one everytime these days. Who has all the room for racks and racks of dynamic processing equipment that you have to carry around for an analog console? A Midas H3000 weighs like 800 pounds in it's roadcase and is eight feet long!
@calk1993 your right I am having a great deal of difficulty getting my head round the digital desk concept, But slowly getting there. I would much rather a venice, or a nice sound craft or Allen heath ml 5000 than a digital but slowly i am seeing the joys of a digital desk
@mufasor That console is a Yamaha M7CL
the M7CL is approximately $25,000.00 USD. But you should check out the new CL1 consoles that were just released. Newly designed mic preamps by Rupert Neve and Neve's classic dynamic processors as part of the standard plug-in package. I understand they will be much cheaper than the M7CL but a much better console. Hard to believe I love the M7!
sorry if i came off accusatory. i was only wondering because the 16.4.2 is only 2 grand and it just has so much capability in such a compact mixer
nice work
@gigbutt Very cool. Are you still running your subs out of your main sub output too? Or are you just doing it from your aux send for your subs out front? Basiclly, is it running out both your sub main outs and the aux out for the kick as well? and If so, I suppose the monitor console is running seperate than YOU are from your sub outs out of the FOH board. Im just a little confused, but really interested!
Thanks man!- Jas.
We have two of the same consoles. I'm a bit hesitant to "heat up" the channels as much as you do, because rarely does anyone play as loud in "soundcheck" as they do during a full blown rock show with an audience. If you set them this high, when the drummer actually gets fired up you will look down and find that everything is on the verge of clipping. I use -12 for everything.
@gigbutt
aliasing is a frequency related problem and has nothing to do with the input gain. the aliasing filter works for all signals the same way.
if the mic pre's would sound differently if you add more gain, yamaha would've done a really bad job designing them.
I don't speak portuguese either but spanish, and i can understand something like " the kick it's sounding horrible , cut between 250hz to 800hz, then add some boost in 60hz or 80hz to have some subs , later a boost on 4khz withoput mistake you're gonna get a perfect kick sound " ... something like that ...
@azombiestool I use an Auxiliary Send.....we have a separate monitor mix console so I don't have to use any aux sends for anything but effects and subs. Sometimes guys want front fills on a aux send for instance. Same difference. But yeah, every aux send has a send pot on the channel and a master output as well.
Yeah I'm sweeping thru the EQ with the +6dB gain to find the nasty little ring in the snare .....when I find the offending frequency I turn the EQ to -6dB and it's gone.
I have a hard time getting used to digital consoles I hate flipping through screens. I would take an analog console any day over digital. i just like to be able to reach for the eq right there without scrolling through a menu.
@gigbutt indeed it is a very important piece of information to achieve good gain structure. unfortunately I only learned of this on the last day of a festival, after using the M7 for an entire weekend! Yamaha should make it more obvious, or just use the standard dB scale...
do you set your input level meters pre or post-fader while the show is in progress?
have you tried the presonus boards? they are great digital boards that are very similar to mixing on an analog board
It takes me a matter of 10 minutes to mix drums on an analog. Digital just seems to lengthy of a process. The yamaha M7CL is a great console but can become hard to adjust quickly and efficiently.
Well the CL1 looks like around $15K and then you need at least one Dante 32 input rack @$5K. Since the Rio comes in either a 32 channel or 16 channel you will need a 32 and a 16 to fill out the full 48 channel capabilities of a CL1.......seems like the CL1 fully kitted out for 48 inputs is going to run right around the same as a M7CL....but you sure get a hell of a lot more procession power for the bucks! My friend has one on tour right now and he prefers it over the PM5D!
Very nice! Do you have a seperate fader for your subs including a mute button? You were talking about getting that nice mid range for the kick, THEN turning up your subs to balance it back out. How were you controlling the volume of the subs particularly for the kick? Or is it just an overall master SUB fader?
Also, what were you tweaking (I guess in the EQ it looked like) to get rid of that ring out of the snare? Thanks! -JAS.
@snapascrew there is no "Live Sound School" yet. Not until I open the Production Institute next year! :)
Recording schools will teach you a thing or two about recording bro. Do you really think that will prepare you for live audio?? Good luck!
Copper snake being used. Analog monitor mixer on stage and digital mixer at FOH. Simple 2-way split snake connects the two.
Buggs me that a sound operator got the audio wrong on their video. Kinda ironic.
So the CL1 costs less than the M7CL including the fact that you also buy at least one I/O rack?
@integer22 Excellent information! I love it when people add important information to these comment threads. Thank you!
Hey how much does that yamaha digital board cost? I`m thinking of getting one. Thanks!
@Bikingstingray one of my favorites for sure :)
@gigbutt Actually scrolling was not the right terminology when i used it. What I meant was you have to select the channel and then go to the screen you can just reach for the knob on the channel console so to me it's slower especially in a multiband event. Just personal preference I spent my life on analog consoles like soundcraft 500B and series 2. I just don't think the digital stuff is all it's cracked up to be.
@snapascrew
A recording school will teach you the basics of a sound board. But listen....consoles for live and consoles for recording have different features, they require a different approach to gain structure. There's a lot of difference and a lot that is shared. The real issue with live sound is dealing with all the other physics and properties of sound in a big reverberant room. Remember, a studio is a tightly controlled environment which is very unlike a big concert hall.
I gotta tell ya, I have been a live sound engineer for about 23 years and even though the new digital consoles pack a lot of power in a much smaller foot print, it is much easier and faster to get tones on an analog desk with some outboard gates, comps eqs etc. I can see everything at a glance, grab a knob instantly and no paging. I have spent a ton of time on many of the new digital desks but man, I still much prefer the navigation of analog....
What a dream job you have :)
I tried the Google Translate from Portuguese and it didn't work too well :).
Can someone else translate for me?
Is this an analog snake in use (Kick/Snare sound check) or are you using a/d converters on stage and running digital signal into the board?
I'm glad that I use mixer. just Centered left output :P
Ric Wallace, Where and how do I find you? I need to study under you. I love what you just did.
+Johnnie Jackson I have online courses available at www.productioninstitute.com. This is a certificate course that you study on your own time, at your own speed. I would recommend the ALS201 course. It's 8 weeks long but in reality I let students take as long as they need to complete it. I hold weekly Google Hangouts with students and individual Skype chats on weekends. You'll learn more in two months than you would with two years of OJT!
Ok thanks... I'll look into it asap.
saludos muy buen video very good video saludos de aka de mexico thanks for your contribution you utility two mics or one im using two mics y am is diferent soun my friend por que puedes invert to the fase. ok snare sound good man good aportation 100% heavy metal aaaa jejeje good mixing m7cl
If I hadn't read this I hadn't recognized it :D
Sir why mixer yamaha ls9 for vocal not fat at botton?? I use speaker line array master audio..can u teach me how can i solve to my issue
What kind of microphone are you using for vocals? Also, most microphones can have a strong "proximity effect." The singer must keep their mouth very close to the microphone. Lips must be touching the mic in order for the mic to reproduce low-mid frequencies effectively. Close proximity makes fat vocals! If the mouth is far away, no fatness.
Keep the microphone wire mesh blast screen clean by unscrewing them from mic and washing often. Encourage singers to "stay on the mic."
Also, LS9 is not the greatest sounding microphone preamp in the world! Try reducing 2.5KHz by 3dB, and raise the channel volume very slightly to make the vocal sound a little fatter.
i using microphone audia tecnica,shure beta sm58.. sir what the best frequency for subwoofer...i using subwoofer montarbo full1018st
I mean -12 as my MAX. I use -18 as nominal and ask the drummer to step on it a little..then adjust to get -12
@digico66 OK cool. Thank you for translating.....Yeah for an expensive kick drum it sounded pretty bad and required a deep notch filter in the mid-bass range......I run into guys that have great drum kits and can play them very well but the one thing they can't do is TUNE them! lol
anyone else notice this video is panned entirely to the left?
it makes no real sense to "heat up the mic pres" as you say. the adc convert to 24 bit, which means you'll have 144 dB snr. you don't need all of that.
mil años despues......snare¡¡¡
Well, there was no word about hi-hat tuning))p
Wow I never had a sound tech say that to me, they just mic the drums the way they think is best.
what subwoofers do you use?
+Nahh jeer I use Meyer Sound 1100LFCs and 700HPs.
Thanks so much
Dommage, sur cette vidéo on entend le côté gauche seulement :-/
Yeah, it's a brazilian writing horrible portuguese.. He said something like:
"geez, that kick is horrible, cut between 250hz and 800hz, then boost between 60hz and 80hz for the sub, then a little boost around 4khz, no doubts, the kick will be perfect, and for some punch, use a noise gate."
Like you don't know those guidelines..
@JBLgangsta yessir!
@gigbutt the guy wrote that the kick sound flat was poor...
what happen to the hat ?
+BigMoneyAl We ran out of time! You have to look at these vids in context. This is a real gig with musicians waiting to GET IT DONE. So, I really had to rush things along. I had a group of SAE students helping me film and edit this stuff and in the end, despite doing an excellent job, there were some errors in the editing and obviously the problem with audio only on one channel. I try to give students and those interested the best I can. But real world demands on our time simply don't allow one to go back and redo everything. I try to do the best I can. Let the haters hate. Let the inquisitive learn.
I have used the presonus, I didn't say I don't enjoy digital consoles, I do. But Im not gonna fork out 1-10k for one when Ive got a perfectly good GL2400 thats been paid off for years. Ill use a digital board if its supplied but Ill never buy one. haha.
@krazydrummer Yes I know...unfortunately it's very hard to fix without removing the video. It was a mistake I made when editing. Premier video editing software can be darn tricky for a lowly soundman....
@miar123 Yes, Yamaha M7CL
@bitencortt what's it mean in English? somebody translate for me :)
no audio for me
The drummer makes that choice. If he likes the way it sounds with less muffling, you as a sound engineer have to figure out how to deal with it.
Yeah. I had a 69 camaro too. Good car, but the 2012's drive better, have A/C, use less gas, and are actually quicker. Get the point here?
Yeah but you can buy a 69 camaro in good condition for 5-6k why spend 25k on something newer if the classic is already paid off. Get my point here?
eeew, this kick is horrible, makes a cutting rate between 250 hz and 800hz and then makes a pression between 60 and 80 hz going to the sub, and then rise up about 4khz, there is no mistake, the kick comes perfectly e to attack it comes a gate "facho?" ((fechado?)i guess it's closed)
this is what i've got
credooooo esse kick ta horrivel faz uma taxa de corte entre 250 hz e 800 hz depois da uma pressao em 60 e 80 hz pra vim o sub e depois da uma levantadinha em 4khz naun tem erro o kick vemm perfeito e pra ataca ele um gate facho
edit: *i Mix*
@naklivc Me too!
please video is rather long
Vendo yamaha7cl $8500000
Make sure to take your skull cap off around your ears before you mix the band live. God, that guy was an idiot. everything from 1 kHz and up was way too high. I had plugs of course. People were looking around funny and gritting their teeth a lot! Don't be that guy!
credo bumbo flete som horrivel