One detail I only noticed on my second playthrough: Miyazu being Khonsu's knowledge was hinted at very early on during the school segment right before Lhamu's reveal. If you exhaust her dialogue, she tells you about how she's been having dreams of a moon god coming to meet her. Also, another thing I realized: Miyazu has Khonsu's knowledge, that of the egyptian moon god. Yuzuru has the knowledge of Tsukuyomi, the japanese moon god. They are siblings. Hmmmmm...
Unironically, some side quests in this game had better plot than the main storyline. Like, to me atleast, choosing who to side with between Leanan Sidhe and Apsaras early on was geniuenely harder than picking an ending.
I think my big issue with the story can be explained like, it's a very fast story told in a very slow way. Like you mentioned, the actual events that happen are pretty few in number, it doesn't narratively build towards anything. You do feel a sort of progression because of the way the gameplay is set up, but you go from joining Bethel, to saving the students, to hunting down the demon King (who hasn't even been mentioned before, I thought they were talking about Lucifer at first), to competing for the right to re-create the world with a bunch of jerks who also haven't been introduced beforehand. Then you pick your design for the new world in the literal final hour. It feels like there should have some breathing room in between the big events where some smaller things happen to build up the weight and impact of the big events.
I think the game would have benefitted from optional sidequests directly related to/given by Bethel between the big story beats, I guess when you reach the end of the story in each area of Da'at. Like 1 mandatory sidequest and 4 optional ones. If each of these quests allowed you to interact in some substantive way with all the important players, maybe actually get to know Yuzuru and Tao a little better, get a better grasp of why Yakumo and Nuwa feel the way that they do, have the war against the demons of chaos go on throughout the game instead of it all happening at once in the 3rd area (maybe even finding out where Arioch's lair is could be part of this), meet the other Bethel leaders (I actually think it was really cool hearing Zeus as part of Artemis' quest before Bethel falls apart), I think everything would feel more earned and the pace of the story would feel more natural.
The game was stuck in development hell for a while. It think I read that they had to cut a LOT from the game in order to finally rush it out for release last year.
@@matmil5 "Sucker" I kept thinking he was going to get played in some way, but he ended up playing everyone for a fool. Pretty sure he only acted dumb and revealed his true colors at that point.
The only quest that I feel makes sense for unlocking the 4th ending is the Shiva quest, since if you don’t kill him, no matter what ending you choose he destroys the universe anyway
@@Mavuika_Gyaru I havent actually done the Shiva fights as im saving it for the Hard playthrough i just started, but its stated twice that Shiva is preparing to destroy the world regardless of the outcomes.
*Abrahamist. A lot of their concepts are in Islam and Judaism. He also turns into a utilitarian and collectivist where the ends justify the means but even more sicko mode.
The thing that stands out to me about Nocturne is the storytelling in the scenes when you meet the human characters. I think of Hikawa spinning in the Diet building or Chaiki in the red and white classroom, talking about how we should remove pointless people. A shame they couldn’t put that effort into scenes in this game. At least change the colour of the screens in the briefing room to match Koshimizu’s intent or use some more interesting camera angles.
We had some interesting angles in the Bethel Summit, but overall I think they went very safe with the visual presentation with this one to appeal to a wide audience. I wonder how much of those scenes of the past were stylized to account for the technical limitations of the hardware at the time.
To me the main difference between V in Nocturne with how they portray characters is how while we probably see the characters a similar number of times, Nocturne shows each key stage of their development and nothing else while with V all the characters apart from Dazai act the same way at the start and the end of the game, I also like Dazai quite a bit more because of this. If you are only going to show each character a few times you have to make each scene count, which V doesn't really there are multiple times where characters show up and they are pretty much the same as the last time you see them. If the story was fleshed out a bit more it could be great, I'm a huge fan of the themes and ideas but there is a lot holding it back.
Because Tao and Yuzuru were Veteran Bethel members so it made sense why Dazai had a bigger focus than them since he is new and had no idea what to do. SMT 4's cast were brand new samurais just like Flynn so it made more sense for character progression to happen
highly agreed. In nocturne you didnt get a lot of time to spend with them but you see each of them develops little by little and there's a real process to get their own reasons, while in V its really unfair that only dazai thats get a lot of development while others is not,i'd say this is probably due to how the story is pacing,the pacing is really up and down even sometimes it always down which is bad thing because you only seen characters a few times and you didnt get a lot of what they're wants this world is gonna be,what they thoughts on this world,how they use this knowledge that belongs to god/demon in their body to themselves and this world(literally there's no process to be a nahobino)and at the end of the game the story is rushed af and dazai is really edgy at the end. i wish they do rewrite the story in "upcoming maniax releases" there's a lot themes and ideas to explore and there's a lot story point' that could been fleshed out more and can take out from the story.
@@mizael_7 this game definitely feels like it will get a maniax style game in the future, the story, given a few pushes in the right direction could be really good. A few extra things could really help the pacing of the game, i doubt they could completely fix the story, but i hope that we may get a little more satisfying arcs for the other characters
The concept of the 'knowledge' that different humans possess refers to the main theory of Gnosticism, which is the belief that each human in the world possesses fragments of God within them. It's a very interesting belief system and I actually started reading a lot of books on the matter. THis game is a lot deeper than people see on the surface, it deals with a lot of psychological and philosophical concepts and I love it.
I have too, it’s a really cool ideology. I’d love to learn more about it and how it’s affected both fiction like smt and Judeo-Christianity in its current form.
Gold eyes are signs of tapping into their Knowledge and getting cool special powers. Yuzuru hilariously only taps into it when him and Tsukuyomi become a Nahobino before their fight and it’s so fast so you can easily miss it.
I find the different Bethel branches and their leaders to be incredibly underutilized. IMO the summit should've been the climax of act 1 and the rest of the game should've been conflicts between these worldwide factions vying for power and influence over the new world. Instead they all show up just to fuck off and hang out in their corners of Area 4 as boss fights. Such a shame.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 Not really; in Yakumo's ending, Shekinah Glory will eventually fade and no one will be able to rectify it because the Throne is destroyed. Unless the Nahobino chooses not to restore Shekinah Glory, humanity is ultimately worse off without the Throne than with Camperbino.
The true ending is kinda wack because you make all demon to cease after you help Khonshu, Amenozako and Fionn Cumhail. You became Fionn's King only to fuck him over.
@@cooldudeachyut what's to say he didn't. Lucifer never says out loud what he told the protagonist to do in order to end the system. Theres nothing against the protagonist having turned demons into humans by erasing them and then reincarnating them after the new world was completed. Just nothing for it either. So it could just be left open to interpretation.
@@isgamer-8732 The problem is they showed no context for it, so they likely are erased. Lijke if they at least showed humans that looked like Amanozako and Fionn dressed in school uniforem that would be convincing, but they don't/
@@hondshoven8477 The thing is though that the hidden ending doesn't need to cause the "one good ending" problem. You can still make the hidden ending bad in its own way (like the MC suffers massive personal loss and literally cannot ever have any remotely happy life - or even live at all - after the decision). The issue is that the ending just makes no sense with the requirements. Why do the quests which show the most human parts of demons, that involve you making incredibly personal relationships, end with you saying "fuck it" and basically killing all of them? If they wanted to stick with the idea that the hidden ending involves making a world for humanity alone and killing all demons, they have to at least justify it so it makes sense with what builds up to it. Because as of now, it just comes off as really dickish and makes more sense as a default neutral ending.
There's no way this game isn't a sequel to Nocturne's True Demon Ending. 18 years ago, Lucifer killed God. Nocturne came out 18 years ago, and the TDE ends with Lucifer getting ready to go kill God. The Conception happened, causing Tokyo to "disappear" from the perspective of the rest of the World. You can see little destroyed Kagutsuchis in the sky. There's an NPC that mentions Ayakashi Monthly, etc.
Tsukuyomi does mention "18 years ago, Tokyo Endured the Conception unwittingly." this during the summit meeting. With Demi-fiend dlc with Nocturne Hd being a thing. I do believe it meant be hinted that this is a sequel without saying it as well. Which could lead people to Think Demi-fiend may be Lucifer holder of Knowledge.
@@Zeik56SMT V's Conception happens only in Tokyo while Nocturne's affected the whole world (which is why Kagatsuchi gets so mad at Demi-fiend in the regular Demon ending, wince he basically destroyed the world for nothing really). Another point of contempt is the Mandala System (this is a different thing from Amala) which in SMT V, getting rid of it was Lucifer's ultimate goal while in Nocturne he talks about the Great Will (which is not really mentioned in V).
Da’at is straight up Vortex World Tokyo but with it having degraded/fallen apart even more over the past 18 years. You even fight the Three Archangels in service to their true lord Baal in the exact same spot as Nocturne.
In Nocturne the main theme was Reasons, as the characters tried to make sense of the world as they knew it and what it was lacking, trying to come up with a concept of the ideal world based on that. Here, the theme is Knowledge, because ultimately, any Reason you may have can change the moment new information is revealed to you, which is exemplified in Lucifer becoming neutral after learning what YHVH knew. It's also why the MC is mainly presented as a student reading a book, and the main conflict is between a central authority decreeing what is the one true Knowledge (Dazai: The world doesn't an excess of false opinions) and multiple ones stablishing that truth can't be truth outside of stablished cultural boundaries (Atsuta: Only each land's pantheon can understand it's needs)
Yeah everyone’s calling it underdeveloped and while I see why they’d think that I personally really like what the story does and how it’s represented. You are being fed info at all times and how it changes your perspective, everyone says Yuzuru is underdeveloped but he’s just someone who’s beliefs are simple and already developed when you meet him versus someone like Dazai who needs that push to find himself. I also love the change with Lucifer because it shows that you’re not really “locked” into any one belief like you are nocturne, information can change you and that’s a cool read on the ending where in Neutral, you become unbound from everything but it’s implied you might have to step in again to protect what you’ve created
@@PatoViriResonance i never realized about yuzuru. I dont know how i didnt cause its similar to Jonathan from part 1 of jojo he isnt underdeveloped he was already a simple developed character for the most part
@@beanieboi7743 yeah exactly, like yes he doesn’t grow and we don’t see much of him but we don’t need to, he’s established enough and I can totally see why he’d side with the Amatsukami whole heartedly
@@PatoViriResonance My problem with Yuzuru is compared to Dazai, we aren't fed his thoughts as we are Dazai's. Yuzuru mentions wanting to protect Tokyo, but he never expands on how Koshimizu's plan helps protect tokyo, other than by parroting Koshimizu. Dazai mentions why he believes what he believes several times, and why he trusts Abdiel. Yuzuru being a simple character is fine, but tell us why he is the way he is, and give us time with him to figure that out
@@mrfox5117 I'd argue that Koshimizu gives Yuzuru's reasons. After all, they are two halves of the whole in the end and it seems like Koshimizu has been basically nurturing Yuzuru and teaching him what to believe.
There are so many ideas in my head for how to make Yuzuru a cool chaos character and have a change of heart. Why couldn't they do anything for him? Even if it wasn't too great, it would at least be something.
I personally liked the random side quests to have the special cool ending on a, like, conceptual level? Like Khonsu has a super strong theme of the unhealthy relationship between humans and demons and the unfairness of their situation, and Shiva is all about how one god can destroy everything if they wanted. I would have LOVED if the patron of that route would have been Aogami. Like, hear me out. Aogami is all about the fact that while he has Susano-o's power, his consciousness is his own and he seems to be learning morals and ethics from you. What if by going in those sidequests, as you approach the throne and are going to destroy it he goes "Young Man. A word..." and he pours his heart out about how much he learned from you and what he thinks that should be done. Because he learned by the whole Khonsu thing that the relationship of humans and gods can be unfair for both parties. Because he learned by the fight with Shiva that humans are cursed to die due to a big god being capable of erasing everything if he wants go. I think he would make a better final patron than Nuwa
That’s a really cool idea In my experience, the relationship between Aogami and the MC really carried my will to continue the story, I just wanted to see what the next 1 to 1 moment would be. Having a larger focus on that could really boost the feel of that dynamic the two carry
I know it's obviously very funny and out of left-field, but Dazai's magic teleportation bullshit is, I believe, actually foreshadowed! In the school when Aogami gives the spiel about how Dazai's fear of combat and demons is justified because it brings the human soul closer to that of a demon? I'm absolutely certain that was foreshadowing for that, and more generally an explanation of how demon summoners develop magic powers (Flynn You're Just Some Guy How Do You Use Antichthon) and how they often twist into less and less reasonable people. Dazai just gave into it, and, uh. Learned to teleport.
It's a Nahobino thing. Nahobino have golden eyes, and Humans who have awoken their Knowledge gain them as well. Yakumo has them, Sahori gets them when under Lahmu's influence, and Yuzuru also gets them moments before fusing into Tsukuyomi. The protagonist (when not fused with Aogami into a golden-eyed Nahobino) even shows his golden eyes on occasion, like when he sees all the corpses in front of the burning temple.
I feel the student characters are mostly underwritten, which sucks but also The best characters for me were the main demons/gods, so the moral alignment for me is choosing if I want a world with or without them, Making a world for humanity alone is prob my fav option because while it is maybe the best for humanity, it comes at the cost of my demon partners, like Tao, fionn, amanozako, nuwa, and of course the big emotional gutpunch aogami. I do like that the neutral faction in this game is more antagonistic towards you, (like SMT fans who tell people to do the true demon ending) I do also agree that the alignments and endings are a lot more nuanced even if the characters are underwritten I feel nocturne works better because the cast have a pre established connection to you and each-other as well as every major player being set up in the first part. Demi fiend, chiaki,yuko,isamu, the guy with the bad hair, lucifer, and even raidou/dante lol And these characters are going through this same hard ass game world you are going through, so you understand why they feel the way they do even if you don’t agree, V doesn’t really give that with its student friend characters, So overall I still love the game gameplay wise and story/character wise just not in the way maybe the game intended lol
Even being a bit underwritten I honestly still cared more about the human companions in this game than any of the reason characters in Nocturne. I really couldn't feel any connection to any character in that game, except the teacher, who gets screwed over. And I suppose Hijiri to some extent, who gets screwed over even more. It's why the demon path seems appealing, because I just had no interest in the siding with any of the character reasons. Granted, I do feel the demons are more compelling than the humans in this game, but I at least felt something for them.
@@mr.personalspace7831 Imagine if Dazai removed his hat before the game even started I guess he would become a religious extremist or LTG (because he was a streamer)
@Dan the Axolotl that’s why it’s an interesting discussion, because I don’t fully know if it’s the best solution for humanity but in context of other SMT games it seems really nice because breaking the cycle that world eventually being ruled by law or chaos no matter what It’s why it’s emotional for me as well because I like these demon and god characters especially in V So that’s why I like the story
I loved some of the lore drops and cool concepts we got in this (No Stephen though) but the story and characters were quite poorly written although at least character wise I found everyone enjoyable in varying degrees and different ways. I like the new smt nocturne info we got from the Demifiend dlc.
@@ex_philemon Yeah, Stephen got derailed hard as a character in SMT IV: Apocalypse where he pretty much tanks the story’s narrative of Law vs. Chaos in a pretty egregious wank to Neutral while ridiculously making all facets of the series the will of the Great Reason. Which is just… so dumb.
Just like nocturne, this game at original release feels a bit half baked in terms of story (and specifically in SMTV’s case the compendium). Then nocturne maniax came out and fixed it with new story content and context, and I think a maniax like release for SMTV would be very beneficial.
The cynic in me feels that Atlus will definitely release a ''Shin Megami Tensei V Maniax' so too speak to try to mend things ups. And if P5 Royal is any indication, it will be a full price retail release with no options to transfer over stuff.
I think Nocturne would be looked upon alot less fondly if the vanilla version was the only one that existed with Kagutsuchi being the only final boss and without the whole amala labyrinth + extra lore presented by Lucifer
We're in 2021 and Atlus would certainly realease the same game with extra content when DLC exists With P5R i understood, they changed a lot of core things in gameplay, palaces and etc. But adding more story content isn't impossible for DLC Make a DLC who unlocks a story sequence afther the Taito area and before hall of eternity you would trigger this new story content and a new ending like TDE or a freedom ending
I feel the overall world and lore of it are ot's strongest point in SMTV. The Main story I do feel maybe needed some new cutscenes and some of the characters I feel needed a bit more fleshing out, even with the NPC Dialogue and context added with the endings. Acts 1 sets up the world, Acts 2 & 3 felt like protecting tokyo, and Act 4 revealing more about gods and the Nahobino. I feel it's better viewing the allignments similar to say Nocturne's reasons rather than say SMT4's allignment reps. I feel Dazai & Abdiel are some of the best Law reps we got in a while. Yuzuru & Koshimizu,I feel Koshimizu was really cool and Yuzuru needed fleshing out. Yakumo & Nuwa are VERY cool, most would agree And NO ONE can hate Aogami lol
The whole thing with the quests and decisions needed to get the 4th ending not actually having anything to do with the 4th ending is what really irks me, as well as Nuwa's whole "Oh that plan we were talking about? We had a completely different plan all along" just feels really slapped together. It also feels to me that the game balancing really took a dive once you entered the Temple of Eternity. You've got enemies running around the place that are all a higher level than the boss at the end, and things get especially weird in Empyrean. You've got this easily accessible Zeus quest, who is a higher lvl than all the Nahobino bosses, and it rewards you with a Demeter who is by that point going to be over 10 lvls behind you. And to top it all off you have to beat the Shiva boss to get the "True" ending, and yet while Lucifer gets a buff in the True Ending version, he's STILL lower lvl than Shiva is. I dunno, a lot of stuff just felt really off near the end, and it definitely feels like cuts were made and that time and/or money became a problem at some point. Great game overall, but it really left me with a sour taste. At least there's New Game +
SMT has always had a problem with end game balance. It's kind of the nature of the game tbh, with how much customization and options they give you and all the side content that they have to design with the assumption not everyone will do. This game still felt much better balanced to me than Nocturne though. The balance in that game was a bit of a mess.
Personally, I wish there was an ending that let humanity and demons coexist in peace, for the simple fact that the game has you see so many different sides of demons on the journey, from the bloodthirsty and irredemable to ones who may well be more human than many actual humans (especially considering how little screentime you get from the actually human characters of the game). None of the endings really align with that perfectly if at all, with the true ending being one that destroys that side of the world entirely, the chaos ending being one where the divine hold all the power and the strong have control over all, the law ending just being dystopian, and the neutral ending being one where both still exist, but everybody is still in conflict and suffering and nothing changes. And while I can appreciate that reality almost never gives us what we want, I can't really go all "we should fight for a future where humanity doesn't have to worry about the threat of demons" when the whole game I've found many demons that not only have endeared themselves to me as a result of being a party member, but also just have nuanced and (relatively more) fleshed out characters that show they aren't monsters, but indivduals.
This might not be the best story in SMT, but i really enjoyed it. the themes and presentation of the story really carry it all the way. I like how they let you go about and do your stuff, and if you look hard enough, you end up finding stuff like the third Khonsu quest. i also want to say the way they did the final boss is really fucking cool (context: i did chaos ending only so far). There's no grand epic music, there's just... the wind and the faint sound of music getting carried through it. It builds up Lucifer as this greater being, stronger than anything. it was an unnerving but very fun fight.
I think the Conception happening 18 years ago is a hint that Da'at is the aftermath of Nocturne. Nocturne was released 18 years ago and there are demons who reference things that happened in Nocturne. The most obvious reference is the Black Frost in the 3rd area who mentions getting beat up by a strong fiend. Asakusa in the 4th area is also the same as it was in Nocturne. Lucifer defeating god 18 years ago lines up with the TDE ending.
No, its common knowledge that every game from Nocturne onwards is its own contained alternate universe. Even 4A is a separate timeline from vanilla 4, SMT1 and 2 are the only mainline games set in the same universe
@@akiradkcn this was never set in Stone SJ was referenced in IV but isn't same universe, okay but IV is definitively another timeline while IVA is a what if scenario I think that SMT V follows Nocturne just like 1 followed 2, and IVA follows an AU of Neutral route IV And it's obvious the connections(they will obviously never state if it's or not, it will be to us to theorize)
No, probably not. The demi fiend Dlc, the Fiends repeatedly imply, or outright state, that they and demi Fiend came from another world, meaning Nocturne cant be connected to this game.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 what if Demi Fiend and the fiends are from the game Smt Nocturne timeline While Smt V is a sequel to Nocturne from other timeline (most precisely one where Demi Fiend dies and possibly he had Lucifer's knowledge maybe or something like that since Lucifer uses some Demi fiend skills, but in this timeline Lucifer killed the Great Will/YHVH himself and then V happened)
You aren't alone in liking Dazai. I think the game defined him best out of everybody else in the game honestly. I wish they could of done so with other characters, especially Yuzuru. I feel like the story could of did better if they focused more on ideologies. Yuzuru and Dazai also need some thematic connection that pushes their ideologies. Maybe have it during the school attack both Yuzuru and Dazai fail at protecting somebody. For Yuzuru this pushes him to want to be stronger so he can protect those around him better. Dazai though acts like he does currently and just feels he isn't cut out for it and believes there are those more suited for stuff like this. It doesn't put the reps into conflict with each other but can start with building their ideologies. Dazai looking for others to help guide him due to lacking confidence, so he turns to Abdiel and God. He believing there are always people better suited for certain jobs, be it fighting, decision making, or ruling tokyo. While Yuzuru looks for ways to protect more and more people, starting with those around him like his sister, his classmates, and eventually leads to him wanting to protect Tokyo. He has confidence in himself and believes he can continue to do better so he pushes forward to do so. Simple write up, but at least gives the reps contrasting arcs with each having their own merits.
Dazai's arc is more or less exactly what you suggested, but they could have done a bit more with Yuzuru. I think the path he chose makes sense given his goals to protect Tokyo, but they don't go deep enough into his motivations as to why he wants that path so much over any of the others.
You know what would have been REALLY cool in 4 Apocalypse..? You know how there is no Level Cap? Like, you can go about every level 99. What if instead of that, if you choose anarchy, THEN you no longer have a level cap. If you choose Bonds, you can become Lv 99, which is completely understandable and a good level for end game. But imagine pursuing personal strength in the story, and in return, you can essentially have the infinite power of infinite growth/leveling. Idk, was watching this and it just came to my head.
Zeus is my favorite god among the other Gods besides Nuwa, Khonsu, and Shiva. Unfortunately, I wished Odin didn't have that weird voice they gave him in this game.
Yea I remember really liking his voice in smt4 apocalypse and was surprised and somewhat dissapointed hearing his voice in this game. He has one of my favorite smt designs.
@@steampunk1610 yea same. I ended up liking Zeus design more after fighting him. Especially his voice since it fits so well for someone like Zeus for me. I also just love how his unique attack animation looks like
I'll be honest, I consider the ending where humanity and the gods get to coexist to be the True Ending, for myself at least. The actual true ending getting unlocked by bonding with the demons only to yeet them out of existence is a bit, shall we say, wack.
It truly is bizarre how you have to interact with so many demons to get the "true" ending, only for the ending to have nothing to do with them, and in fact directly oppose them. It really does feel something like Fither says about some of the endings feel jumbled up
@@moonpoff6456 Like, if the "destroy them all, world for humans only" was the normal ending for that route, that'd make sense. Then swap the true ending for the one where they have to live together and boom, problem solved.
@@LiterallyWhomstve I got the Myriad Gods ending myself as well, and as far as Chaos endings go it certainly wasn’t bad at all. After Seeing the Law ending though I think its my favorite of the four. Its effectively a world of order on your own terms, without the usual trappings associated with the alignment. Humanity and Demons can still coexist in the ending as well, but they must remain as Demons without their knowledge/divinity. Too many Gods vying for power is a problem highlighted in the Myriad Gods ending. I’m not fond of the Neutral endings for the same reason as you, the Demons are usually the most interesting characters in SMT and its a shame to exclude them from the world entirely.
@@s.silverman9864 My issue with the Myriad Gods ending is that it still places the path of the world in the hands of the divine, and we see multiple times in even just the main story that none of these guys are on the same page, and most of them don't give a fuck about those weaker than them (aka humans). If there was an ending where we use the throne's apparently limitless power to create a world where everyone, demon and human alike can live on equal footing, that would be my pick.
@@DragonEdge10 If that's what you want I think the Law ending is still your best bet given the choices we have. At least in that ending the usual obnoxious Law reps had the courtesy to make themselves scarce in the end this time around, leaving our Nahobino the sole authority so to speak. As with all SMT endings they present the idea of a world and leave the rest up to player interpretation. Naturally some endings are more narratively restrictive than others, but out of the four we have in this game I think Law offers the most narrative flexibility for the world of equality between Humanity and Demons that you're after.
While I can accept the story as it is it lacked development to basically every character except one: Ichiro. I really disliked Ichiro at the beggining but grew to understand his point of view even if I disagreed with it cause you see his natural progression, and Abdiel has her goals clear for the very start. But Yuzuru and Tsukuyomi are kidna just there and once they state their goal thats kinda it. No progression which leads to their goal feeling organic at all. Even more so in the ending when the alignments state their views, Ichiro blows a very clear hole in Tsukuyomi's plan ("You expect all these gods to play nice with each other"). The gameplay itself shows you these gods have no interest in cooperating with each other, but Yuzuru and Tsukuyomi never present any counter argument other than "Nah itll be fine". I love that all the alignments have a clear goal that don't just lead to pure misery (even the incomplete neutral ending which was my first felt like something i agreed with). It just really sucks that Yuzuru and Tsukuyomi are not even there when they are 2/6ths of the story.
Smt V's true shine is its gameplay. I had other expectations of the story after games like Strange Journey Redux or even IV. The devs even said at some point that it would include a lot of real world problems, like crime, terrorism, corruption... Not to mention the fact that God was "dead" was very interesting. But in the end we got a very underwhelming story with bland characters and unmeaningful endings for Smt's standards at least.
They dropped the ball hard on Yuzuru and Miyazu, literal figurants. Rushed Sahori arc terribly (make we TALK TO HER in person before her arc please...does she even knows our name?). Forgot to give a personality to Tao (and more screentime for her human part of the plot, what's the "saintess" even do in Bethel?). Yakumo and Nuwa are cool, but need more screentime. NPC mentioning Yakumo stealing Bethel comps should have been a good sidequest or two. Maybe an arc. Some sidequests (Isis-Horus, Khonsu-Ra+Miyazu, Baal, Amanozako) should have been integrated into the mandatory plot. Same for some NPC lore dumps.
Dazai has the most interesting character concept for sure, the issue with him is how he's presented. He tells us verbatim who he is and what his motivations are every time we see him rather than letting actions and subtleties in his dialogue speak for themselves. He doesn't speak as if he's unconfident, he just tells you that's what he is. The constant signposting of his progression made his arc really obvious from a mile away so I feel it lost all impact.
There is a brief lore dump after the nuwa fight where A) director says that the tokyo you know is a place created outside of the current world (sort of like a bubble floating outside of reality). B) the conception happened 18 or 20 years ago and that the miracles god made were slowly disappearing, you becoming a nahobino was proof due to a condemnation being in effect. Later shown why tokyo disappearing.
Yuzuru’s name already foreshadowed who he was related to 敦田 Atsuta referring to a shrine which housed the Kusanagi and has Amaterasu as its patron deity ユヅル Yuzuru which can be read as 弦, is part of a character 弦月 (read as gengetu) meaning Half moon.
Da'at is the eleventh sphere of the Sephirot, or Tree of Life, which is an ontological map of the universe. You know like how a donut is topologically indistinguishable from a mug? That's how you have to compare the Tree of Life to the physical universe. The spheres are like distinct psychological states that can be thought of as separate dimensions of the world as a whole. Da'at is distinct from all the other spheres in that it's an empty space, making it much more like the opposite of a sphere; a qluiphort, meaning "shell," as in the discarded shell that had previously contained something. The shards are the evil half of the universe and represent an absence God left behind so that a world outside of God could manifest. However, the reason Da'at is an empty space is because it used to be a sephira but was destroyed when the divine spheres were separated from the collective and human spheres. So if represented as a physical place, Da'at is a wasteland and a wellspring of demons, just like in SMTV. It was originally the sphere of knowledge.
What I will say about this game’s alignment reps is that they are not what people usually would expect. Dazai is the law rep without question; but, I think the prime minister is the actual chaos rep, instead of Yuzuru. Having played through the game I felt the pull was coming from Koshimizu and Dazai, with Yuzuru being the PM’s other half. The summit has Yuzuru’s reason being “I agree with the Director.” I do wonder, since it’s Atlus, if we are going to get an SMT V version of P5 Royal or Nocturne Maniax with added content. The fiends were not in original Nocturne, but I can’t imagine the story without them and the other additions.
I think a lot of the effort went into the various demon negotiations when it comes to the writing, they even went the extra mile and had specific demons have special conversations with each other. The demons have never had this much personality injected into them prior to this game and as someone who likes SMT mainly for the world and the demons I'm mostly ok with the main cast not getting as much attention.
this isn't meant to sound sarcastic but please tell me what you see in Ichiro because he's the most annoying, the most whiney and the most cliche member of the group He's only the most interesting to me because the other two may as well just not be in the game, they're that non-existent. He's literally just "waaah I'm not confident, please Abdiel lemme help" and then turns into "heh I don't wear hat anymore. I'm edgy and super confident. Did I mention I can teleport and shit now? Pretty cool huh?" Truly cannot stand him
This game needed like another Da'at map, or fill in the gap between school invasion and returning to False Tokyo. False Tokyo should've been a map by itself. Atleast going from school, temple, dormitory, and research building... OK I LIED I JUST WANT MORE SCREEN TIME FOR MIYAZU. Lahmu was worthless.
He was supposed to be the first demon that joined you, and was supposed to be used as a mount that you can ride on the game world, but they cut that out and left him as a background character just not to waste artistic and modelling effort Source:Doi's blog.
It's a shame it suffers from underdevelopment because I honestly love a lot of what's here. With even a bit more time and care, the story could have been genuinely fantastic, but as it stands it's just kinda mid, with the overall narrative only being salvaged by interesting ideas and strong sidequests.
I have two issues with the endings, which are weird issues to start with lol I'd like to just say that the individual endings themselves are fine and I like them, however what bugs me are the choices themselves. And I know going "I wanted more endings" sounds greedy, but there's a lot of emphasis on you making your vision of the world and all that, yet when it comes down to it, it's other people's visions and you happen to side with one of them, It is why looking back, I like the logic of the Demi-Fiend unable to make his own reason, it forces that limit. (Which you can still break in that game~) I also find it a bit of a kick in the teeth the 4th ending which requires you to do a lot of the side quest and interact with demons and such, maybe even helping them or what have you, only for you to just throw it all away. While the ending itself is good, I would have liked another option, maybe something akin to what Khonsu's vision was, being a world where Demons and Humans coexisted, which also makes me wonder if that was an plan they had thought of but ultimately cut for time? Once again I know It just sounds like I'm asking for more endings, but I do like what's there and am just a bit deflated with the choices and how they where presented. That being said, the game still rocks!
doing alot of sidequest is also a thing you need to do in the Neutral path of SMT4 in fact it one of the reason I kinda stopped playing it I couldn't find the last sidequest I needed to do and just decided to fight the archangel. My hope is they might add a "Manix" version like they did with Nocturne as initially Nocturne only had 5 endings, 3 reason , freedom , demon. Also no Fiends and no Dante/Raidou.
This is my problem as well. It's made even worse by the choice itself. Being able to choose your ending without being karma-locked into Law because you weren't enough of a dick? Great! But when you choose, it gives you voice lines from the reps. Really hammers home how the choice isn't really yours, even though you know by then that it's your ass going on the throne. And then there's the 4th ending, where the Nahobino can't conceive it without being told by Nuwa, and Nuwa and Yakumo lie to everyone about their goal for some reason. Feels like it's hidden just for the sake of having a hidden ending. Also +1 to wanting a different ending from the offered ones, but my pick would be something Lucifer-aligned, like making everyone, human and demon, into Nahobino. Then again, we know little of the limitations on soulcraft other than that there are some (else YHVH could've just destroyed all Knowledge instead of hoarding it, and angels like Abdiel wouldn't have Knowledge at all), so it may just be impossible.
@@illusive-mike I mean, honestly would be funny just to have an ending where the MC goes "I am now the creator and everyone worship me" or "Idk... Tao is now in charge I'm going to bed" there is a lot they could do with it. And it's a shame they seemed to limit it to just those ideas (though once again I'm sure they did think of them but wasn't sure how to get them fit/finish it in time)
Khonsu was my favorite rep at the summit, so a new ending siding with him would be sick. Perhaps encouraging him and Miyazu to become a nahobino during their side quest.
Yeah I've brought this up a lot, but of course the guy who lacks confidence is gonna go crazy the moment he's given power and the promise of a world where humanity will be united under God, where he never has to worry about standing out or being unsure of himself. He finally has the answers, promises and powers he needs, and since it's a massive turn, it's gonna go to his head.
Yes, that's why i like him and i understand what they wanted to do with him but the way the scene worked made law dirty again Imagine if afther he throw the hat, dazai stays the same but without the hat and he would cut a part of his hair (this have meaning of starting a new phase in Japan) so he would start talking about how he wants a world for God to himself without sounding crazy, then in the end we see him more serious and confident but more friendly towards the protag and less villain, but he would only get mad at you If you reject law
@@neoonewingedren1836 That would work really well. I just think that despite their attempts to make law look bad I liked it more since Dazai is pretty relatable to anyone who lacks confidence, and the edgy thing he does shows that he still doesn't know how to fully act. In any case bringing about law would give him some peace, especially since it's proclaimed Nahobino brings back everyone too.
Sorry, can't watch this video yet since I'm still playing the game and want to do it as blind as possible (will 100% give it a watch after finishing, though), but, from what I have seen of the story in SMT V, there is one thing that has been stuck in my mind for a while now: the absolute crushing tragedy that is the life of Sahori Itsukishima. Shin Megami Tensei as a series definitely has a bad - or good, depending on your perspective - habit of forcing its characters to go through some really fucked up shit and end up either dead or, in some cases, suffering a fate way worse then death. Being brainwashed, brutally murdered by someone whom you considered a friend, sacrificed (or choosing to sacrifice themselves) to achieve some higher goal, doomed to be eternally trapped in the cycles of rebirth and reincarnation, not to mention completely losing your mind and/or having all your hopes and dreams be crushed right before your eyes - these things, including some stuff I didn't mention, happen in all of SMT or SMT-related games. Not all of them at once, obviously, but there is no title that is completely excluded from the tradition of *someone* drawing the short straw. Still, when something like this happens, usually at least one of the two following statements is true: the character in question gets fucked due to the protagonist's choice (so it is preventable, and there is an outcome where they don't have to go through mental or physical torture, one way or another usually resulting in their death) or they had a few happy/peaceful/validating moments during the story, so it wasn't *ALL* completely bad. Most of the alignment representatives easily fall into the first category, while some of the less important side characters with tragic fates fit better in the second: for example, Honda from Devil Survivor still had hope of saving his sick son until the very end and acted upon it, Deru-Deka from Devil Survivor 2 died knowing that his daughter was alive and safe, the teacher from Nocturne held the (sadly, unfulfilled) ambition of creating her own Reason, and so did the manikins, and Asahi from Apocalypse had plenty fun and games with the gang before Sheisha fucking ate her. Yes, what happened to them was horrible, but it wasn't like mercilessly kicking someone who is already down. This is not the case for Sahori. From the moment she is first introduced till the moment she dies, there is not a single good thing that happens to this poor girl. It's all fucked. All of it. Like, imagine being bullied for months or maybe even years by your former teammates because of some dumb reason and willingly avoiding your best and only friend, Tao, because you don't want them getting involved in all this mess. Then some disgusting, abominable creature suddenly appears before you out of literally nowhere, destroying half your school, spouts some nonsense about "being destined for each other" or some other crap, brainwashes/manipulates you into killing two people and abducts you into the hellish, nightmare realm filled with demons. Then, after some time being trapped in that shithole, Tao finally comes to save you, and she even seemingly manages to defeat the terrible monster with the help of some unknown blue-haired boy, but - surprise, surprise - it turns out that you have been already possessed by the demon all along, and he uses your hand to YOU FUCKING KILL YOUR BEST FRIEND. And further yet, as if all that still hasn't been enough to fully break you, Tao miraculously comes back to life and sacrifices herself to help that blue-haired boy, giving him - and you - one final opportuntity to put an end to this. And you do. You accept your death, because there is no other alternative. After killing three (almost four, five counting the Proto-Fiend) people, after witnessing someone you love die in front of your eyes BECAUSE OF YOU, the only thing you can do is to suppress Lahmu controlling your body for just long enough, so that boy, whom you don't even know and who doesn't know you, can put his blade through your heart, while holding you gently in his embrace during your final moments. I didn't feel sad when Itsukishima died, because she wasn't given enough screentime for me to get attached to her. Instead, I felt empty. Those last ten-fifteen hours of gameplay, this whole heroic rescue quest ultimately amounted to nothing. Sure, we saved some students, but many more were killed by the demons - their bodies were never found and will never be found. We killed the one responsible, Lahmu, and stoped his plans, but so what? It was insignificant in the grand scheme of things, in the grand war between Law and Chaos. Not to mention, the damage has already been done: Bethel lost a lot of talented personnel, including the Savior, Tokyo as a whole got fucked by this sudden invasion, people are hurt and dying. And the main reason we fought, and fought, and fought all this time - to find and protect Sahori? Just an empty promise now. She's dead, and no one cares, really. For the angels and those in charge of protecting humanity she is just a statistic - simply another life tragically lost in the incident. Her parents will most likely cry for her, and some of her classmates will probably sometimes think of her, but aside from that there is no one really left who will mourn her, who will remember that the person by the name of Sahori Itsukishima ever existed. Except you. You, the Nahobino - the one who killed her. Even though you didn't know her personally, you will forever hold a part of her inside your own heart, because that awful bond - the bond between the killer and the victim - will never go away, as long as your humanity is still intact. *You* will remember that she lived. And *you* will remember the sacrifice that poor-poor girl, forced into all this mess, made as her last will. (Also, as someone who, like I said, haven't yet finished the game: even if she somehow comes back to life, and all of this essay turns out to be meaningless - I don't care, pls don't spoil. Thanks!)
I feel like this game's story is probably appreciated by those who are aware of Kabbalah and it's concepts. I really like how this game portrayed Ein Sof, or in this game they call it the Mandala System. Essentially a god that cannot be understood as a being but infinity itself that allows others to conceive of it but only partially. And you are forever in a loop that cannot be dismantled because the system, or being, cannot be destroyed as you cannot even possibly perceive of it. I love how the game puts you in the center of the Sefirot and then you go through the game transcending the Sefirot and the 4 worlds symbolically to become a god. Only to be met with the knowledge that no matter what you do, there will always be a world and an existence higher than you, making your free will as a god null. I like how they did the 3 keys signifying the 3 columns of the Sefirot or the Tree of Life. Unrelated to Kabbalah, but how they handled Tao was very interesting. Probably one of the more interesting interpretations of The Virgin Mary I've ever experienced in media. The idea of having the birth through a symbolic passing of a portal or a hole as a birth into godhood was insanely well done. I could go on about the symbolism in the game and how they use the games mechanics to help tell the story or even the ui. But some simples examples would be 1) Learning the concept of the Mandala system and then realizing the UI of the game has a ton of circles everywhere. 2) Shiva being as strong as he is. If there's a god or a concept that could bring about the destruction of a system, it would be Shiva. And i like how they make him as strong as he is to really hammer home that idea. There's a lot of story in this game and it is well written or shown very well, and has done so in a lot of ways that have simply not been done before. Little things, such as the placing of where Abdiel was able to eat the apple, are accurate to where Eden would be placed in the context of the 4 worlds and where the throne or Beriah. This is also a game where it demands an insane amount of knowledge on the players end to appreciate it's writing. I don't know if that means the writing is bad but it surely one of the most gatekeepy games i've played in my lifetime.
Also I love how they connected this game to Nocturne through Kabbalah concept of Sitra Achra. It is also known as Qlippoth, Tree of Death or The Other Side. Just as there are 10 Sefirot or branches in the Tree of Knowledge or Tree of Life, there are 10 branches in the Qlippoth representing 10 Demons. In this game they replace 8 of the original demons with the 8 Fiends in Nocturne. Then they add Demi-Fiend making it 9 and Lucifer from Nocturne is already present since he killed god, so that would make it 10. It pretty much ties in why these 2 games universes are so tight knit yet being separate at the same time.
I still think the writing is bad because sure all of those references and intricate setpieces are cool, characters are arguably the most forgettable for me out of the SMT games I've played (4/4A, DDS, Noc and SJ) and the overall structure is honestly just gross considering the type of story it's trying to tell. Very few actual plot points in an otherwise looong ass game make everything aggressively disjointed and most lore is dumped on you in the last 10% of the game it feels like. Tao was probably the most egregious example of a character being important but I barely even consider her a character, and just a mere plot device.
The world and lore are good Characters bad The story would be just "fine" if the humans characters were well done because everything else having more potential or not was minimalistic but good and small details added a lot to this game Non ironically i would like they adding Fire Emblem Supports like thing (Just without marriage) in Smt This would help a lot in situations like these and also these supports could give you more than just character talk(similiar to P5 with the rewards in the confidants)
@@neoonewingedren1836 The only character I find bad is Daizai. This isn't because the ideas behind him are bad, it's because the execution behind the ideas weren't fleshed out. They didn't adequately juxtapose his fascination with higher or spiritual ideas enough with the rest of the cast, so his turning seemed out of place or rushed. I'm not entirely sure how they could've made it more in place without just adding more textboxes talking about how every decision or thought ends up in a physical or spiritual box which moves the person further or closer towards humanity. Not unlike how actions in Kabbalah either end up being an action in sitra achra or sitra kedusha. Abdiel on the other hand is very much faithful to their character in Paradise Lost. I think they depicted her very well. And then built upon her fanatical love for the Creator in a pretty realistic sense. I could go on about the others.
@@walter4180 Thanks for reading my shit lmao.... so like the disjoint here, is what you perceive as references or set pieces, aren't really that. They are integral to the game, hence why I feel it's very gatekeepy. The 1st 1/4th of the game is establishing that the origins of the story are a take on the first few books of Paradise Lost. The differences are that they add nuance with the plot points of Nahobino and how they were divided for a time, they group in all deities and gods as being punished instead of just demons, and they also consolidate the history of the Babylonian captivity into this as well (we learn this later). Lucifer takes the place of Satan in this game. From this point they refer to Tokyo as the Netherworld, implying you are lower or in some sort of hell. From this point on the player assumes it's a Christian story, although there are hints of Judaism. Once we return to fake Tokyo when we find out the game is taking place within the Four Worlds (this is sort of a plot twist). Lahmu breaks into Assiah and refers to it as such. When the player returns to the Netherworld, you learn this is Da'at, the 11th hidden sefirot where all 10 are active. Easy to assume from here that the real Tokyo is in Yetzirah, elevated to this place from this game's Conception. And from here it's obvious it's Kabbalah, a lot of other shit happens from this point on that is actually pretty meaningful and paced well. Especially with the True Demon DLC, it's very clean cut. but... I feel like the characters are fine for what this story is about. Dazai is really the only one who I feel really stood out in a way where it wasn't good, it was awkward. The execution of his insanity was pitiful and probably should have been scaled back. I think taking off his cap and then having a more serious face while having glowing yellow eyes to indicate he is using his Knowledge would've been more appropriate. This game is about determinism, and respectfully critiquing the theological assumption that there is free will if there is a god. And even if humans could control who our god is or even how many, it doesn't move us as a human race towards having free will. We still arrive at the same destination of being lesser or not able to control our fate. It is a nihilistic game with a nihilistic message for those who want to engage on it, on it's level. It uses the humans as tools to be exploited by the gods like Sahori and Tao. And sometimes it uses the humans to show the gods love for the lesser humans like Aogami/Protag, Khonsu/Miyazu and Nuwa/Yakumo... all depicting different types of love. Whether it be unconditional, pure or lustful. But it isn't a character study and that's not indicative of bad writing. I don't think they should've advertised it as a character focused game in trailers.
Just finished my first playthrough, went with Law, thought Dazai was going in just the coolest direction he could've went in and then he just friggin dies man lmfao what the heck I think Abdiel could've totally kicked the bucket and it could've been fine but Dazai just getting one-shot like that was so underwhelming and I can't help but let that experience taint everything else I loved about the story until that point. I think even just having him walk with the protag by the end credits would've brought about way more closure.
I completely agree that map 3 or even map 2 could have just flat out not existed since the story really on starts out at map 4 where everything from before is rather unimportant. What was the point to all that stuff with Lahmu? It seemed like they are setting up Sahori as Chiaki but she just dies... Tao dies too only to come back for no particular reason.
This was the only time I chose Law in the 4 games I've played. I had to think on it for a little bit between choosing Neutral and Law. Chaos was out of the question. Tsukiyomi barely did anything and his end goal was barely better than what was currently going on. And he had an obsession with just Japan (which is his right of course.) Neutral was close. But I feel Neutral didn't do anything at all in this game except bother me. You can mumbo jumbo reasonings all you want, but besides your intro, you were inconsequential and do not give me a reason to believe humans are better off on their own. Law, I actually understood Abdiel's reasonings even if I didn't agree with her. One thing in particular I've noticed piss people off was that she tries to kill you. I expected her to try much earlier, because she even hinted at it. In the end she only tried to kill me to keep Bethel unified. That was the most 'business decision' attack in the whole game for me. I liked that she refused to become a Nahobino, because it was against her code. Now she ends up teaming with Dazai, but in the Law Route she never actually becomes a Nahobino, which I find perfect. She does fall however and that was rough for me to see, because she was doing so good until that point. Dazai also called out chaos straight up with a 'then what happens? You can't even agree now.' And that point was never destroyed. I can at least point to Japan being preserved by god as proof of Law working. Even Tsukiyomi expresses gratitude about that situation. The actual Law ending is. . .ehhhh. Typical SMT ending .
The problem with law is Abdiel and Dazai transformation's presentation being weird with Atlus trying hard to make law evil But honestly the only reasonable endings in this game are law and Neutral Everything else is... No Nahobino thanos snap every demon friend but in the end the mandala system returns because the franchise needs to continue The chaos world would be just our world but with super politicians Neutral... Honestly i choose it because Nuwa -is hot- and Yakumo is cool But law is the best one
Man I beat the game 4 days ago and I ended up getting the 4th route, cuz I beat Shiva and did every challenge quest. Took me 85 hours and 30 mins. And then I choose to destroy the Throne, but man my soul was crushed when Tao left. Cuz I got myself and Tao up to level 90 to fight Shiva. And her leaving just....Man. and then it got worse when I chose to make a world for humans and then Aogami said he would cease to be and...Gah. And then with the credits, I realized my boy the Nanabino was completely alone. All classmates dead, Tao, Aogami, and amanozaki. Just that realization made me adore the game more. Also my boy Dazai, I felt so bad for him. I wanted so hard to support him, but Yakumo. The raidou impersonator who stole my heart.....Even if I kinda supported Tsukyomi more.
About the hidden ending. I assume that by doing these quests you gain Nuwa's trust. Nuwa said herself that she saw Sahori situation so I think it's save to assume that she was observing MC.
I quite liked Dazai as a character, with him developing over the story and all. Always gave him all the support options and everything. I actually stopped when he joined Abdiel and said to my wife that I was upset about him being an enemy because he effectively said "I'm stupid, so I've chosen not to think anymore" because I wanted him to do well. I chose the neutral "red dot" route, since it makes more sense that having one being ruling everything wouldn't suit everyone. That's why empires always crumble. Don't care what anyone says, breaking the throne is dumb and actual chaos.
Well, the problem with Dazai is that he basically says to you "Thinking is hard, head empty, no thoughts" and yet later in the game he is supposed to be one of the people who is supposed to present his vision of the world? I just... Don't get it. He basically says he is a gullible dumbass outright to you, and then the game presents him as a viable ideological choice. After he already said he is a dumbass,so he probably did not think very hard about his views.
I like the idea of these characters, but like we spend no time with them outside Dazai. Miyazu is more well developed as a side character than her brother! Who is a damn alignment rep!
Aside from Dazai, they really fucked over the student characters, like damn killing off Tao, Yuzuru pretty much becoming non-existant, Miyazu even MORE non-existant and doesn't get any voice lines past when you get back to school, like c'mon Atlus your way better than that at humanizing your characters. I find it humorous that Amanozako got more character developement than ANYONE, hell all her quest are fully voiced too, it's clear they prioritized her over any other character, like damn.
I'm fine with it. Tao dying felt like a surprise, and at least Yuzuru got her own side-quest. SMT stories are driven by their world and the plot, it's generally not as character driven as the spin-off series. These characters were written more like archetypal representations of their alignments rather than fully fleshed out characters and I think they succeeded in that. Spending game time humanizing them with extraneous dialogue would detract from the main plot, and their thoughts and feelings just aren't as interesting to hear about as their actions are to see. Extra voice lines would've been nice, I agree, but watching these characters makes choices informs you about their character AND moves the plot forward, which seemed to be important choice made for the pacing of the game. I sympathize with those who have difficulty connecting with those characters because of the lack of context their choices are given. The writers really relied on the player to engage in a certain amount of thematic inference to give these characters meaning. TL;DR I feel you. Was pretty good though.
I'm fine with Tao dying for the most part, outside of the two main issues I have with that portion of the plot in general: First, why the hell did they have Lahmu manage to oneshot knockout Nahobino-kun, despite us clearly having kicked his ass barely an hour ago, conveniently long enough for the situation to get out of hand and him be able to escape with Sahori to the netherworld? Sure, you could argue that he ended up getting more powerful from the magatsuhi from the attack on the school as well as being near his human knowledge, but it felt so contrived that Nahobino-kun would not interfere with what is clearly Sahori threatening the students, Aogami not being able to detect that Lahmu's presence was right next to her, and that Lahmu suddenly got powerful enough to knock us out cold for just as long as they needed to kill the students and then escape, but not powerful enough to actually cause us any lasting damage. Second, why in the damn hell do we not just smack the shit out of Lahmu before he can do anything and talk to Sahori after the threat is gone? The game even prompts you with a choice that asks whether you should prioritise eliminating Lahmu while he's caught off guard or protecting Sahori, and instead we stand there like a dope looking on as Lahmu takes in his knowledge and powers up, despite knowing full well how powerful Nahobino can be on account of being one ourselves. Like, they could've had Lahmu summon some demons to keep us occupied in order to protect Tao, but instead they make us look on and stand still as an enemy that has already proven to us is a threat (slowly) gets himself a powerup that also happens to harm the target of our rescue mission. Considering it's also a narrative point that we smack Lahmu enough that he must power up, and then still loses and has to resort to trickery to ambush us, it's blatantly obvious that had we simply dashed in beamsword hands blazing, none of this would have ever escalated to where it did. So while I'm perfectly fine with the fact that both Sahori and Tao end up dying from that from a narrative perspective, I really dislike it due to how it's executed, since the way it plays out makes it feel like Nahobino-kun just threw and as a result let a friend and a classmate die for no reason.
@@drewb1979 These characters weren't written at all mate. Ichiro was and is the most obnoxious character in the game who just turns into an anime villain as they needed a reason for him to be relevant. Tao dying didn't surprise me because I didn't give a shit about her and she was barely a character. Glasses guy was boring as all sin and barely a character and the girl with glasses was as the OP said, even worse than him. You can have characters written as archetypes and still be written well and actually be idk, people instead of toy soldiers just being placed down when the plot needs them. They can still be INTERESTING. You also mentioned their actions but what actions do you even mean? Sure we see them do "things" but we BARELY EVER see them do ANYTHING. I knew what the characters were about and I understood everything about them. It's not about the player not engaging with them at all. It's simply that they're badly written, boring characters. Nocturne did pretty much anything story/character related better than 5 with a similar story structure. No masterpiece in that department either but I at least remember Isamu and Chiaki after all these years and I can barely remember the names of the siblings after a few weeks. In Noc I was at least wondering from time to time "hmm, wonder what's happening with Isamu" but in 5 I just dreaded the next slog of a cutscene that Ichiro would be in where he just whines all the time. Like "we get it Ichiro, you're weak, not confidant but still want to help. That is literally all you are as a character". I'm all up for different interpretations but I simply cannot agree that any of these characters are any better than mediocre plot fodder. Lemme put it another way. Some demon conversations and special interactions were better written than these characters. That's pretty bad.
Excellent Video! Literally a Nocturne sequel, The mask of Gozu Tennoh plus all of the dialogue with Daisoujou, those aren’t just references those are direct connections.
The only thing that bugs me a bit is that with how the route lock occurs means there is little to no exclusive content for each route. SMT IV had at least one whole dungeon to every ending except for one, where it has none for very obvious reasons. Meanwhile in SMT V there's maybe 2 fights and maybe 1-2 sidequests.
I'unno, all the routes are on the cover of the game. It's just like them to follow the theme of the games... How much more we notice after every cycle of being alive, as the nahobino, if you will. How much more we pick up through every emanation of our own divinity. It may be contrived, but it's about the journey. I could have seen that cover or scenes of monsters and not have understood their importance to the story or what I was even looking at. I too heavily avoided spoilers. I didn't watch shit, BUT trailers. They showed off a good bit, yeah, but I had no idea what I was even looking at in hindsight.
I like Dazai, until I don't. I can't stand the whole "aha my personality has completely changed, look I slicked my hair back so you know I'm evil" trope. Like, you say you really like it cuz its just dumb, and that's the exact reason I hate it. Honestly if they kept everything the same, but didn't radically change his personality at the end, I probably wouldn't hate him. Its weird he's suddenly super confident and giving orders to Abdiel when the entire point of his worldview is that he's not confident and wants a higher power to help him feel secure. He gets props for being the most developed alignment rep, but that's mostly because you barely see the other two.
Honestly, I feel the Prime Minister ties in with a way the world is reborn because he even states it happens before, and then there's a few demons with the holy sword. I'm wondering if the Prime Minister was in fact holding knowledge about what happened in nocturne. That's why they have a proto instead of a demi. The whole point of Nahobino just screams Demi.
In my opinion, my favorite endings were Chaos then Law then Secret then Neutral. Secret is only so low because I was attached to the Demons like Konsu and Amanazako and did not like the idea of killing them. I also interpreted Chaos sort of like a council. Gods could do as they pleased but Nahobino would actively step in and big things would have to go though him.
I think they're only giving you small tidbits of info because this is pretty much, based on miman dialog, a sequel to Nocturne. Opening up with Lucifer pretty much killing god is what he intended to do by the end of Nocturne & it just kind of all fits together if you view it as a continuation. In Vengeance I'm pretty sure there's more dialog that really drives it home, especially the Haunt and Demi-Fiend & Lucifer conversations. I know a lot of people don't want to jump to that conclusion but it feels like all of the pieces are there and fit though.
I'm late but I can already envision an SMT5A where Odin, Shiva, Khonsu, and Zeus all find their knowledge in an alternate universe and that open up even more endings. It would be great schlock and fan service to see Nahobino fusion forms for those characters. Miyazu and Khonsu got me to this concept for a game because it felt like Miyazu was supposed to be a main character as she was introduced like one and Khonsu was a god that ended up being sidequest stuff. I can easily see a what if sequel similar to SMT4A with this game that allows for new endings with all the important gods. The game also makes Goto out to be an important character when all he really does is just observe what happens and is so inconsequential to the story, an SMT5A could fix that by adding a Goto route.
I like that they sort of foreshadowed this game by releasing the SMT 3 Remaster before. It was like the developers were reminding you of the part 1 before delivering the part 2 of the narrative. Dragon Ball did something similar by re-releasing the Broly and Fusion Reborn movies before the DBS Broly movie, to remind you of original designs of Broly and Gogeta. I'm so happy we finally got a follow up on the ending TDE left us with. TDE overall made the ending seem like it was only the first step in the overall goal of dismantling these systems of higher power that get to decide how the universe works, to make way for proper freedom for humanity. But of course you can decide to go against that long term goal since this is SMT after all.
You wanna talk cut content? Take a look at those in-cutscene prompts that you occasionally get, the ones with the stylized text that's got a bunch of flickering effects over it. At the bottom of the screen, just barely in sight, you can see the same effect popping up with the top halves of letters occasionally being visible. Those letter only appear on the bottom making it hard to call it a stylistic choice for the borders, the letters change, and they don't line up with what the prompts say. I'm convinced that those are cut responses that they hid by just cropping them out.
Honestly the most confusing thing to me was having to beat Shiva. The rest of the quests may not make sense story wise but doing all the content to unlock something extra makes sense.
@@kaueleao9957 If it was on a repeat playthrough, you may have already defeated Shiva on a previous playthrough. The game is looking at your demon analysis, not what you've done during that playthrough.
For True Neutral: Its not centered around her, its about sidelining all possible challengers to the Throne. It just happens that Khonsu's story intertwines with hers.
i was gonna go chaos on ym 1st run, but as i progressed i realized based dazai was all i needed to switch to law. dazai's the best alignment rep since walter imo
There definitely feels like there was a cut area with more time for people like Yuzuru, Yakumo and the Bethel branches. Overall though the story was still enjoyable but seemed like stuff was missing for time.
I recently finished SMT5 for the first time. I think for me, the game was too light and thematic because I actually tuned out with the few exceptions where I was like "whoa" such as Goddess Tao, or Dazai's transformation (if he threw his cap away like Terry, I probably would've chose his side in a heartbeat). As for the characters though? I can't say I liked any of them necessarily since I honestly barely know them. Dazai gets the most development, but I still don't feel like I know him that well personally. but Tao is the one that infuriates me the most because she's the one that the most by your side, but says nothing. Side note about Tao, but it sucks that you can't take her into NG+, but Amanozako can. I haven't got the chance to go for the 4th ending, maybe I will since I might be able to just blast through it all. Good to know Miyazu gets some screen time finally, but I don't really see it as a good thing if it happens at the very end.
One detail I only noticed on my second playthrough: Miyazu being Khonsu's knowledge was hinted at very early on during the school segment right before Lhamu's reveal. If you exhaust her dialogue, she tells you about how she's been having dreams of a moon god coming to meet her. Also, another thing I realized: Miyazu has Khonsu's knowledge, that of the egyptian moon god. Yuzuru has the knowledge of Tsukuyomi, the japanese moon god. They are siblings. Hmmmmm...
At same Yuzuru don't give a fuck about Miyazu after area 2 lmao
Also they are both green coded
Does that make MC estranged family?
@@simonfisher4592 The biggest clue.
@@alsaiduq4363 Yuzuru has things to do in Bethel and was she was the most safe in the fairy village.
Unironically, some side quests in this game had better plot than the main storyline. Like, to me atleast, choosing who to side with between Leanan Sidhe and Apsaras early on was geniuenely harder than picking an ending.
100% agreed
I describe that scene where Dazai slicks his hair back as “Dazai’s Joker moment”
Dazai when he learnt he lives in a society.
Lookin' cool, Joker!
Dazai pulling an Aizen on us.
@@Ulqui_210 underrated coment
All I could see was Vergil.
I think my big issue with the story can be explained like, it's a very fast story told in a very slow way. Like you mentioned, the actual events that happen are pretty few in number, it doesn't narratively build towards anything. You do feel a sort of progression because of the way the gameplay is set up, but you go from joining Bethel, to saving the students, to hunting down the demon King (who hasn't even been mentioned before, I thought they were talking about Lucifer at first), to competing for the right to re-create the world with a bunch of jerks who also haven't been introduced beforehand. Then you pick your design for the new world in the literal final hour. It feels like there should have some breathing room in between the big events where some smaller things happen to build up the weight and impact of the big events.
I think the game would have benefitted from optional sidequests directly related to/given by Bethel between the big story beats, I guess when you reach the end of the story in each area of Da'at. Like 1 mandatory sidequest and 4 optional ones. If each of these quests allowed you to interact in some substantive way with all the important players, maybe actually get to know Yuzuru and Tao a little better, get a better grasp of why Yakumo and Nuwa feel the way that they do, have the war against the demons of chaos go on throughout the game instead of it all happening at once in the 3rd area (maybe even finding out where Arioch's lair is could be part of this), meet the other Bethel leaders (I actually think it was really cool hearing Zeus as part of Artemis' quest before Bethel falls apart), I think everything would feel more earned and the pace of the story would feel more natural.
The game looks and plays fantastic, it took me to cycle 5 to realize how weak the story was.
The game was stuck in development hell for a while. It think I read that they had to cut a LOT from the game in order to finally rush it out for release last year.
I like Dazai, though I do think it is funny that he just becomes a fucking anime villain as soon as his hat drops
The hat limited his true power.
The hat is equivalent to Aizen's glasses
I think hat has like "Dunce" or "Moron" written on it, making the last cutscene with his even cooler.
@@matmil5 "Sucker" I kept thinking he was going to get played in some way, but he ended up playing everyone for a fool. Pretty sure he only acted dumb and revealed his true colors at that point.
The only quest that I feel makes sense for unlocking the 4th ending is the Shiva quest, since if you don’t kill him, no matter what ending you choose he destroys the universe anyway
They don't explicitly state that, but yeah
@@Mavuika_Gyaru they did state that when you talk to him.
The issue is you can't talk to him until you reach a level limit.
@@Mavuika_Gyaru I havent actually done the Shiva fights as im saving it for the Hard playthrough i just started, but its stated twice that Shiva is preparing to destroy the world regardless of the outcomes.
@@TehThespian I literally agreed with what he said. Are you illiterate?
@@jackehstil7945 did you not read what I said?
I love how Dazai's solution to fixing the reality of the world is to become an instantly devout Christian.
*Abrahamist. A lot of their concepts are in Islam and Judaism. He also turns into a utilitarian and collectivist where the ends justify the means but even more sicko mode.
I feel like it makes sense for character since he was suffering from a lack of meaning which religion provides
@@Z50nemesis TBH the same can also be said about any radical ideology that promises answers across the political compass.
@@twohooks3533 Sure , Dazai just happen to fall on the christian one
Dazai is technically Jewish if anything since he doesn't believe in Jesus or Muhammed
The thing that stands out to me about Nocturne is the storytelling in the scenes when you meet the human characters. I think of Hikawa spinning in the Diet building or Chaiki in the red and white classroom, talking about how we should remove pointless people. A shame they couldn’t put that effort into scenes in this game. At least change the colour of the screens in the briefing room to match Koshimizu’s intent or use some more interesting camera angles.
We had some interesting angles in the Bethel Summit, but overall I think they went very safe with the visual presentation with this one to appeal to a wide audience. I wonder how much of those scenes of the past were stylized to account for the technical limitations of the hardware at the time.
I miss the old smt flair
To me the main difference between V in Nocturne with how they portray characters is how while we probably see the characters a similar number of times, Nocturne shows each key stage of their development and nothing else while with V all the characters apart from Dazai act the same way at the start and the end of the game, I also like Dazai quite a bit more because of this.
If you are only going to show each character a few times you have to make each scene count, which V doesn't really there are multiple times where characters show up and they are pretty much the same as the last time you see them.
If the story was fleshed out a bit more it could be great, I'm a huge fan of the themes and ideas but there is a lot holding it back.
Exactly why nocturne works imo
Because Tao and Yuzuru were Veteran Bethel members so it made sense why Dazai had a bigger focus than them since he is new and had no idea what to do. SMT 4's cast were brand new samurais just like Flynn so it made more sense for character progression to happen
@@Mattjazz47 you still can have character development even if your characters are veteran loo
highly agreed. In nocturne you didnt get a lot of time to spend with them but you see each of them develops little by little and there's a real process to get their own reasons, while in V its really unfair that only dazai thats get a lot of development while others is not,i'd say this is probably due to how the story is pacing,the pacing is really up and down even sometimes it always down which is bad thing because you only seen characters a few times and you didnt get a lot of what they're wants this world is gonna be,what they thoughts on this world,how they use this knowledge that belongs to god/demon in their body to themselves and this world(literally there's no process to be a nahobino)and at the end of the game the story is rushed af and dazai is really edgy at the end. i wish they do rewrite the story in "upcoming maniax releases" there's a lot themes and ideas to explore and there's a lot story point' that could been fleshed out more and can take out from the story.
@@mizael_7 this game definitely feels like it will get a maniax style game in the future, the story, given a few pushes in the right direction could be really good.
A few extra things could really help the pacing of the game, i doubt they could completely fix the story, but i hope that we may get a little more satisfying arcs for the other characters
The concept of the 'knowledge' that different humans possess refers to the main theory of Gnosticism, which is the belief that each human in the world possesses fragments of God within them. It's a very interesting belief system and I actually started reading a lot of books on the matter. THis game is a lot deeper than people see on the surface, it deals with a lot of psychological and philosophical concepts and I love it.
Finally someone said it
I have too, it’s a really cool ideology. I’d love to learn more about it and how it’s affected both fiction like smt and Judeo-Christianity in its current form.
Gold eyes are signs of tapping into their Knowledge and getting cool special powers. Yuzuru hilariously only taps into it when him and Tsukuyomi become a Nahobino before their fight and it’s so fast so you can easily miss it.
Jeez really, I didn't even notice in the law and neutral routes
Implications for the persona series
When a minor semi-optional boss has more character than one of the main reps.
Blue dance man?
I find the different Bethel branches and their leaders to be incredibly underutilized. IMO the summit should've been the climax of act 1 and the rest of the game should've been conflicts between these worldwide factions vying for power and influence over the new world. Instead they all show up just to fuck off and hang out in their corners of Area 4 as boss fights. Such a shame.
The biggest shame is that none of them got to be a nahobino
Like dude that was what i was looking forward the most
I wish Miyazu was the neutral-peace ending where you spawn camp the throne so no one can reset the universe.
That's basically the destroy the throne ending, without destroying the Throne. That wouldn't be new.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 Not really; in Yakumo's ending, Shekinah Glory will eventually fade and no one will be able to rectify it because the Throne is destroyed. Unless the Nahobino chooses not to restore Shekinah Glory, humanity is ultimately worse off without the Throne than with Camperbino.
The true ending is kinda wack because you make all demon to cease after you help Khonshu, Amenozako and Fionn Cumhail. You became Fionn's King only to fuck him over.
I kinda like it, it prevents the "One good ending" syndrome that games like Strange Journey and Apocalypse have.
Yea, like couldn't Nahobino turned demons into humans or something like that?
@@cooldudeachyut what's to say he didn't. Lucifer never says out loud what he told the protagonist to do in order to end the system. Theres nothing against the protagonist having turned demons into humans by erasing them and then reincarnating them after the new world was completed. Just nothing for it either. So it could just be left open to interpretation.
@@isgamer-8732 The problem is they showed no context for it, so they likely are erased.
Lijke if they at least showed humans that looked like Amanozako and Fionn dressed in school uniforem that would be convincing, but they don't/
@@hondshoven8477 The thing is though that the hidden ending doesn't need to cause the "one good ending" problem. You can still make the hidden ending bad in its own way (like the MC suffers massive personal loss and literally cannot ever have any remotely happy life - or even live at all - after the decision). The issue is that the ending just makes no sense with the requirements. Why do the quests which show the most human parts of demons, that involve you making incredibly personal relationships, end with you saying "fuck it" and basically killing all of them?
If they wanted to stick with the idea that the hidden ending involves making a world for humanity alone and killing all demons, they have to at least justify it so it makes sense with what builds up to it. Because as of now, it just comes off as really dickish and makes more sense as a default neutral ending.
There's no way this game isn't a sequel to Nocturne's True Demon Ending. 18 years ago, Lucifer killed God. Nocturne came out 18 years ago, and the TDE ends with Lucifer getting ready to go kill God. The Conception happened, causing Tokyo to "disappear" from the perspective of the rest of the World. You can see little destroyed Kagutsuchis in the sky. There's an NPC that mentions Ayakashi Monthly, etc.
Doesn't a demon straight up mention the Conception at some point? Either way, the game riddled way to many references to Nocturne for it not to be.
Tsukuyomi does mention "18 years ago, Tokyo Endured the Conception unwittingly." this during the summit meeting. With Demi-fiend dlc with Nocturne Hd being a thing. I do believe it meant be hinted that this is a sequel without saying it as well. Which could lead people to Think Demi-fiend may be Lucifer holder of Knowledge.
@@Zeik56SMT V's Conception happens only in Tokyo while Nocturne's affected the whole world (which is why Kagatsuchi gets so mad at Demi-fiend in the regular Demon ending, wince he basically destroyed the world for nothing really).
Another point of contempt is the Mandala System (this is a different thing from Amala) which in SMT V, getting rid of it was Lucifer's ultimate goal while in Nocturne he talks about the Great Will (which is not really mentioned in V).
Da’at is straight up Vortex World Tokyo but with it having degraded/fallen apart even more over the past 18 years.
You even fight the Three Archangels in service to their true lord Baal in the exact same spot as Nocturne.
Nocturne Japan release was Feb 2003 which would be 18 years ago funny enough.
In Nocturne the main theme was Reasons, as the characters tried to make sense of the world as they knew it and what it was lacking, trying to come up with a concept of the ideal world based on that. Here, the theme is Knowledge, because ultimately, any Reason you may have can change the moment new information is revealed to you, which is exemplified in Lucifer becoming neutral after learning what YHVH knew. It's also why the MC is mainly presented as a student reading a book, and the main conflict is between a central authority decreeing what is the one true Knowledge (Dazai: The world doesn't an excess of false opinions) and multiple ones stablishing that truth can't be truth outside of stablished cultural boundaries (Atsuta: Only each land's pantheon can understand it's needs)
Yeah everyone’s calling it underdeveloped and while I see why they’d think that I personally really like what the story does and how it’s represented. You are being fed info at all times and how it changes your perspective, everyone says Yuzuru is underdeveloped but he’s just someone who’s beliefs are simple and already developed when you meet him versus someone like Dazai who needs that push to find himself. I also love the change with Lucifer because it shows that you’re not really “locked” into any one belief like you are nocturne, information can change you and that’s a cool read on the ending where in Neutral, you become unbound from everything but it’s implied you might have to step in again to protect what you’ve created
@@PatoViriResonance i never realized about yuzuru. I dont know how i didnt cause its similar to Jonathan from part 1 of jojo he isnt underdeveloped he was already a simple developed character for the most part
@@beanieboi7743 yeah exactly, like yes he doesn’t grow and we don’t see much of him but we don’t need to, he’s established enough and I can totally see why he’d side with the Amatsukami whole heartedly
@@PatoViriResonance My problem with Yuzuru is compared to Dazai, we aren't fed his thoughts as we are Dazai's. Yuzuru mentions wanting to protect Tokyo, but he never expands on how Koshimizu's plan helps protect tokyo, other than by parroting Koshimizu. Dazai mentions why he believes what he believes several times, and why he trusts Abdiel. Yuzuru being a simple character is fine, but tell us why he is the way he is, and give us time with him to figure that out
@@mrfox5117 I'd argue that Koshimizu gives Yuzuru's reasons. After all, they are two halves of the whole in the end and it seems like Koshimizu has been basically nurturing Yuzuru and teaching him what to believe.
Miyazu Ending where she becomes a Madoka style goddess who creates a paradise at a great cost.
There are so many ideas in my head for how to make Yuzuru a cool chaos character and have a change of heart. Why couldn't they do anything for him? Even if it wasn't too great, it would at least be something.
I personally liked the random side quests to have the special cool ending on a, like, conceptual level?
Like Khonsu has a super strong theme of the unhealthy relationship between humans and demons and the unfairness of their situation, and Shiva is all about how one god can destroy everything if they wanted. I would have LOVED if the patron of that route would have been Aogami.
Like, hear me out. Aogami is all about the fact that while he has Susano-o's power, his consciousness is his own and he seems to be learning morals and ethics from you. What if by going in those sidequests, as you approach the throne and are going to destroy it he goes "Young Man. A word..." and he pours his heart out about how much he learned from you and what he thinks that should be done.
Because he learned by the whole Khonsu thing that the relationship of humans and gods can be unfair for both parties. Because he learned by the fight with Shiva that humans are cursed to die due to a big god being capable of erasing everything if he wants go.
I think he would make a better final patron than Nuwa
That’s a really cool idea
In my experience, the relationship between Aogami and the MC really carried my will to continue the story, I just wanted to see what the next 1 to 1 moment would be. Having a larger focus on that could really boost the feel of that dynamic the two carry
I know it's obviously very funny and out of left-field, but Dazai's magic teleportation bullshit is, I believe, actually foreshadowed! In the school when Aogami gives the spiel about how Dazai's fear of combat and demons is justified because it brings the human soul closer to that of a demon? I'm absolutely certain that was foreshadowing for that, and more generally an explanation of how demon summoners develop magic powers (Flynn You're Just Some Guy How Do You Use Antichthon) and how they often twist into less and less reasonable people. Dazai just gave into it, and, uh. Learned to teleport.
Never really thought of that , my belief was that amybe one of his demons was giving him that power , kinda like in Devil survivor
It would make more sense if we saw it happen to anyone else, but no. All we got was Dazai at the very end of the game
Yakumo was seen doing teleport as well. It must be something common to humans who was able to tap into nahobino shinanigans power
It's a Nahobino thing. Nahobino have golden eyes, and Humans who have awoken their Knowledge gain them as well. Yakumo has them, Sahori gets them when under Lahmu's influence, and Yuzuru also gets them moments before fusing into Tsukuyomi. The protagonist (when not fused with Aogami into a golden-eyed Nahobino) even shows his golden eyes on occasion, like when he sees all the corpses in front of the burning temple.
I thought he was in a semi nahobino form, like he was bonded with abdiel but didn't fully fuse
I feel the student characters are mostly underwritten, which sucks but also
The best characters for me were the main demons/gods, so the moral alignment for me is choosing if I want a world with or without them,
Making a world for humanity alone is prob my fav option because while it is maybe the best for humanity, it comes at the cost of my demon partners, like Tao, fionn, amanozako, nuwa, and of course the big emotional gutpunch aogami.
I do like that the neutral faction in this game is more antagonistic towards you, (like SMT fans who tell people to do the true demon ending)
I do also agree that the alignments and endings are a lot more nuanced even if the characters are underwritten
I feel nocturne works better because the cast have a pre established connection to you and each-other as well as every major player being set up in the first part.
Demi fiend, chiaki,yuko,isamu, the guy with the bad hair, lucifer, and even raidou/dante lol
And these characters are going through this same hard ass game world you are going through, so you understand why they feel the way they do even if you don’t agree,
V doesn’t really give that with its student friend characters,
So overall I still love the game gameplay wise and story/character wise just not in the way maybe the game intended lol
The reveal of Dazai’s hair was the biggest development he went through. It made me giggle.
Even being a bit underwritten I honestly still cared more about the human companions in this game than any of the reason characters in Nocturne. I really couldn't feel any connection to any character in that game, except the teacher, who gets screwed over. And I suppose Hijiri to some extent, who gets screwed over even more.
It's why the demon path seems appealing, because I just had no interest in the siding with any of the character reasons.
Granted, I do feel the demons are more compelling than the humans in this game, but I at least felt something for them.
@@Zeik56 that’s fair
@@mr.personalspace7831 Imagine if Dazai removed his hat before the game even started
I guess he would become a religious extremist or LTG (because he was a streamer)
@Dan the Axolotl that’s why it’s an interesting discussion, because I don’t fully know if it’s the best solution for humanity but in context of other SMT games it seems really nice because breaking the cycle that world eventually being ruled by law or chaos no matter what
It’s why it’s emotional for me as well because I like these demon and god characters especially in V
So that’s why I like the story
It took me all the way til dazais joker moment to realize his "freckles" were just raw ass acne.
I loved some of the lore drops and cool concepts we got in this (No Stephen though) but the story and characters were quite poorly written although at least character wise I found everyone enjoyable in varying degrees and different ways. I like the new smt nocturne info we got from the Demifiend dlc.
@@ex_philemon Yeah, Stephen got derailed hard as a character in SMT IV: Apocalypse where he pretty much tanks the story’s narrative of Law vs. Chaos in a pretty egregious wank to Neutral while ridiculously making all facets of the series the will of the Great Reason. Which is just… so dumb.
Just like nocturne, this game at original release feels a bit half baked in terms of story (and specifically in SMTV’s case the compendium). Then nocturne maniax came out and fixed it with new story content and context, and I think a maniax like release for SMTV would be very beneficial.
Free DLC?
@@mr.personalspace7831 more so a release like how most megaten games get one
The cynic in me feels that Atlus will definitely release a ''Shin Megami Tensei V Maniax' so too speak to try to mend things ups. And if P5 Royal is any indication, it will be a full price retail release with no options to transfer over stuff.
I think Nocturne would be looked upon alot less fondly if the vanilla version was the only one that existed with Kagutsuchi being the only final boss and without the whole amala labyrinth + extra lore presented by Lucifer
We're in 2021 and Atlus would certainly realease the same game with extra content when DLC exists
With P5R i understood, they changed a lot of core things in gameplay, palaces and etc. But adding more story content isn't impossible for DLC
Make a DLC who unlocks a story sequence afther the Taito area and before hall of eternity you would trigger this new story content and a new ending like TDE or a freedom ending
I feel the overall world and lore of it are ot's strongest point in SMTV.
The Main story I do feel maybe needed some new cutscenes and some of the characters I feel needed a bit more fleshing out, even with the NPC Dialogue and context added with the endings. Acts 1 sets up the world, Acts 2 & 3 felt like protecting tokyo, and Act 4 revealing more about gods and the Nahobino.
I feel it's better viewing the allignments similar to say Nocturne's reasons rather than say SMT4's allignment reps.
I feel Dazai & Abdiel are some of the best Law reps we got in a while.
Yuzuru & Koshimizu,I feel Koshimizu was really cool and Yuzuru needed fleshing out.
Yakumo & Nuwa are VERY cool, most would agree
And NO ONE can hate Aogami lol
Dont worry, itll be fleshed out in SMTV Brainiax feat. Sam porter Bridges from the Death Stranding series.
@@ClaymanFlames No cap, I'd buy that lol
@@urameshitrev1851 *Sam uses Lunge*
*Trips on a pebble, killing everyone.*
I need this.
@@ClaymanFlames I think that Atlus will do a Apocalypse like sequel or DLC
I would rather have that than a royalgoldenmaniax thing
It was almost depressing to get the true ending since you basically betrayed Susano-O when all he did was protect you
The whole thing with the quests and decisions needed to get the 4th ending not actually having anything to do with the 4th ending is what really irks me, as well as Nuwa's whole "Oh that plan we were talking about? We had a completely different plan all along" just feels really slapped together.
It also feels to me that the game balancing really took a dive once you entered the Temple of Eternity. You've got enemies running around the place that are all a higher level than the boss at the end, and things get especially weird in Empyrean. You've got this easily accessible Zeus quest, who is a higher lvl than all the Nahobino bosses, and it rewards you with a Demeter who is by that point going to be over 10 lvls behind you. And to top it all off you have to beat the Shiva boss to get the "True" ending, and yet while Lucifer gets a buff in the True Ending version, he's STILL lower lvl than Shiva is.
I dunno, a lot of stuff just felt really off near the end, and it definitely feels like cuts were made and that time and/or money became a problem at some point. Great game overall, but it really left me with a sour taste. At least there's New Game +
SMT has always had a problem with end game balance. It's kind of the nature of the game tbh, with how much customization and options they give you and all the side content that they have to design with the assumption not everyone will do.
This game still felt much better balanced to me than Nocturne though. The balance in that game was a bit of a mess.
Personally, I wish there was an ending that let humanity and demons coexist in peace, for the simple fact that the game has you see so many different sides of demons on the journey, from the bloodthirsty and irredemable to ones who may well be more human than many actual humans (especially considering how little screentime you get from the actually human characters of the game). None of the endings really align with that perfectly if at all, with the true ending being one that destroys that side of the world entirely, the chaos ending being one where the divine hold all the power and the strong have control over all, the law ending just being dystopian, and the neutral ending being one where both still exist, but everybody is still in conflict and suffering and nothing changes. And while I can appreciate that reality almost never gives us what we want, I can't really go all "we should fight for a future where humanity doesn't have to worry about the threat of demons" when the whole game I've found many demons that not only have endeared themselves to me as a result of being a party member, but also just have nuanced and (relatively more) fleshed out characters that show they aren't monsters, but indivduals.
This is what I've been looking for
Play SMT II Chaos Route, my dude
In nocturne the characters where childhood friends while in SMT V they all just meet everyone in one scene
It was implied that Tao and Yuzuru were already your friends in that scene.
This might not be the best story in SMT, but i really enjoyed it. the themes and presentation of the story really carry it all the way. I like how they let you go about and do your stuff, and if you look hard enough, you end up finding stuff like the third Khonsu quest.
i also want to say the way they did the final boss is really fucking cool (context: i did chaos ending only so far). There's no grand epic music, there's just... the wind and the faint sound of music getting carried through it. It builds up Lucifer as this greater being, stronger than anything. it was an unnerving but very fun fight.
Vishnu Nahobino Form was in SMT IV Apocalypse.
I think the Conception happening 18 years ago is a hint that Da'at is the aftermath of Nocturne. Nocturne was released 18 years ago and there are demons who reference things that happened in Nocturne. The most obvious reference is the Black Frost in the 3rd area who mentions getting beat up by a strong fiend. Asakusa in the 4th area is also the same as it was in Nocturne. Lucifer defeating god 18 years ago lines up with the TDE ending.
No, its common knowledge that every game from Nocturne onwards is its own contained alternate universe.
Even 4A is a separate timeline from vanilla 4, SMT1 and 2 are the only mainline games set in the same universe
@@akiradkcn this was never set in Stone
SJ was referenced in IV but isn't same universe, okay but IV is definitively another timeline while IVA is a what if scenario
I think that SMT V follows Nocturne just like 1 followed 2, and IVA follows an AU of Neutral route IV
And it's obvious the connections(they will obviously never state if it's or not, it will be to us to theorize)
No, probably not. The demi fiend Dlc, the Fiends repeatedly imply, or outright state, that they and demi Fiend came from another world, meaning Nocturne cant be connected to this game.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 what if
Demi Fiend and the fiends are from the game Smt Nocturne timeline
While Smt V is a sequel to Nocturne from other timeline (most precisely one where Demi Fiend dies and possibly he had Lucifer's knowledge maybe or something like that since Lucifer uses some Demi fiend skills, but in this timeline Lucifer killed the Great Will/YHVH himself and then V happened)
You aren't alone in liking Dazai. I think the game defined him best out of everybody else in the game honestly. I wish they could of done so with other characters, especially Yuzuru.
I feel like the story could of did better if they focused more on ideologies. Yuzuru and Dazai also need some thematic connection that pushes their ideologies. Maybe have it during the school attack both Yuzuru and Dazai fail at protecting somebody. For Yuzuru this pushes him to want to be stronger so he can protect those around him better. Dazai though acts like he does currently and just feels he isn't cut out for it and believes there are those more suited for stuff like this.
It doesn't put the reps into conflict with each other but can start with building their ideologies. Dazai looking for others to help guide him due to lacking confidence, so he turns to Abdiel and God. He believing there are always people better suited for certain jobs, be it fighting, decision making, or ruling tokyo.
While Yuzuru looks for ways to protect more and more people, starting with those around him like his sister, his classmates, and eventually leads to him wanting to protect Tokyo. He has confidence in himself and believes he can continue to do better so he pushes forward to do so.
Simple write up, but at least gives the reps contrasting arcs with each having their own merits.
Dazai's arc is more or less exactly what you suggested, but they could have done a bit more with Yuzuru. I think the path he chose makes sense given his goals to protect Tokyo, but they don't go deep enough into his motivations as to why he wants that path so much over any of the others.
You know what would have been REALLY cool in 4 Apocalypse..? You know how there is no Level Cap? Like, you can go about every level 99.
What if instead of that, if you choose anarchy, THEN you no longer have a level cap.
If you choose Bonds, you can become Lv 99, which is completely understandable and a good level for end game.
But imagine pursuing personal strength in the story, and in return, you can essentially have the infinite power of infinite growth/leveling.
Idk, was watching this and it just came to my head.
Zeus is my favorite god among the other Gods besides Nuwa, Khonsu, and Shiva. Unfortunately, I wished Odin didn't have that weird voice they gave him in this game.
Yea I remember really liking his voice in smt4 apocalypse and was surprised and somewhat dissapointed hearing his voice in this game. He has one of my favorite smt designs.
@@GradMeat same! I was more surprised that I ended liking Zeus more than Odin because he's such a fun character to see in this game.
@@steampunk1610 yea same. I ended up liking Zeus design more after fighting him. Especially his voice since it fits so well for someone like Zeus for me. I also just love how his unique attack animation looks like
@@GradMeat again same. He's just a loveable jerk in this game.
He has my fave line "You beat me twice you magnificent bastard"
Tao's Demon Description: She lost her personality 😢
Me: She had a personality other than "Nice Girl" ?
I'll be honest, I consider the ending where humanity and the gods get to coexist to be the True Ending, for myself at least.
The actual true ending getting unlocked by bonding with the demons only to yeet them out of existence is a bit, shall we say, wack.
It truly is bizarre how you have to interact with so many demons to get the "true" ending, only for the ending to have nothing to do with them, and in fact directly oppose them. It really does feel something like Fither says about some of the endings feel jumbled up
@@moonpoff6456
Like, if the "destroy them all, world for humans only" was the normal ending for that route, that'd make sense. Then swap the true ending for the one where they have to live together and boom, problem solved.
@@LiterallyWhomstve I got the Myriad Gods ending myself as well, and as far as Chaos endings go it certainly wasn’t bad at all.
After Seeing the Law ending though I think its my favorite of the four. Its effectively a world of order on your own terms, without the usual trappings associated with the alignment.
Humanity and Demons can still coexist in the ending as well, but they must remain as Demons without their knowledge/divinity. Too many Gods vying for power is a problem highlighted in the Myriad Gods ending.
I’m not fond of the Neutral endings for the same reason as you, the Demons are usually the most interesting characters in SMT and its a shame to exclude them from the world entirely.
@@s.silverman9864 My issue with the Myriad Gods ending is that it still places the path of the world in the hands of the divine, and we see multiple times in even just the main story that none of these guys are on the same page, and most of them don't give a fuck about those weaker than them (aka humans). If there was an ending where we use the throne's apparently limitless power to create a world where everyone, demon and human alike can live on equal footing, that would be my pick.
@@DragonEdge10 If that's what you want I think the Law ending is still your best bet given the choices we have.
At least in that ending the usual obnoxious Law reps had the courtesy to make themselves scarce in the end this time around, leaving our Nahobino the sole authority so to speak.
As with all SMT endings they present the idea of a world and leave the rest up to player interpretation.
Naturally some endings are more narratively restrictive than others, but out of the four we have in this game I think Law offers the most narrative flexibility for the world of equality between Humanity and Demons that you're after.
While I can accept the story as it is it lacked development to basically every character except one: Ichiro.
I really disliked Ichiro at the beggining but grew to understand his point of view even if I disagreed with it cause you see his natural progression, and Abdiel has her goals clear for the very start. But Yuzuru and Tsukuyomi are kidna just there and once they state their goal thats kinda it. No progression which leads to their goal feeling organic at all. Even more so in the ending when the alignments state their views, Ichiro blows a very clear hole in Tsukuyomi's plan ("You expect all these gods to play nice with each other"). The gameplay itself shows you these gods have no interest in cooperating with each other, but Yuzuru and Tsukuyomi never present any counter argument other than "Nah itll be fine". I love that all the alignments have a clear goal that don't just lead to pure misery (even the incomplete neutral ending which was my first felt like something i agreed with). It just really sucks that Yuzuru and Tsukuyomi are not even there when they are 2/6ths of the story.
Remember about Aogami being Susano-o?
Smt V's true shine is its gameplay. I had other expectations of the story after games like Strange Journey Redux or even IV. The devs even said at some point that it would include a lot of real world problems, like crime, terrorism, corruption... Not to mention the fact that God was "dead" was very interesting. But in the end we got a very underwhelming story with bland characters and unmeaningful endings for Smt's standards at least.
They dropped the ball hard on Yuzuru and Miyazu, literal figurants.
Rushed Sahori arc terribly (make we TALK TO HER in person before her arc please...does she even knows our name?).
Forgot to give a personality to Tao (and more screentime for her human part of the plot, what's the "saintess" even do in Bethel?).
Yakumo and Nuwa are cool, but need more screentime. NPC mentioning Yakumo stealing Bethel comps should have been a good sidequest or two. Maybe an arc.
Some sidequests (Isis-Horus, Khonsu-Ra+Miyazu, Baal, Amanozako) should have been integrated into the mandatory plot. Same for some NPC lore dumps.
Dazai has the most interesting character concept for sure, the issue with him is how he's presented. He tells us verbatim who he is and what his motivations are every time we see him rather than letting actions and subtleties in his dialogue speak for themselves. He doesn't speak as if he's unconfident, he just tells you that's what he is. The constant signposting of his progression made his arc really obvious from a mile away so I feel it lost all impact.
There is a brief lore dump after the nuwa fight where
A) director says that the tokyo you know is a place created outside of the current world (sort of like a bubble floating outside of reality).
B) the conception happened 18 or 20 years ago and that the miracles god made were slowly disappearing, you becoming a nahobino was proof due to a condemnation being in effect. Later shown why tokyo disappearing.
Yuzuru’s name already foreshadowed who he was related to
敦田 Atsuta referring to a shrine which housed the Kusanagi and has Amaterasu as its patron deity
ユヅル Yuzuru which can be read as 弦, is part of a character 弦月 (read as gengetu) meaning Half moon.
Da'at is the eleventh sphere of the Sephirot, or Tree of Life, which is an ontological map of the universe.
You know like how a donut is topologically indistinguishable from a mug? That's how you have to compare the Tree of Life to the physical universe. The spheres are like distinct psychological states that can be thought of as separate dimensions of the world as a whole.
Da'at is distinct from all the other spheres in that it's an empty space, making it much more like the opposite of a sphere; a qluiphort, meaning "shell," as in the discarded shell that had previously contained something. The shards are the evil half of the universe and represent an absence God left behind so that a world outside of God could manifest.
However, the reason Da'at is an empty space is because it used to be a sephira but was destroyed when the divine spheres were separated from the collective and human spheres.
So if represented as a physical place, Da'at is a wasteland and a wellspring of demons, just like in SMTV. It was originally the sphere of knowledge.
The endings aren’t even Law, Chaos and Neutral. It’s monotheism, polytheism and atheism and true neutral is an atheist that hates religion lol
This actually kinda makes sense holy shit
What I will say about this game’s alignment reps is that they are not what people usually would expect. Dazai is the law rep without question; but, I think the prime minister is the actual chaos rep, instead of Yuzuru. Having played through the game I felt the pull was coming from Koshimizu and Dazai, with Yuzuru being the PM’s other half. The summit has Yuzuru’s reason being “I agree with the Director.”
I do wonder, since it’s Atlus, if we are going to get an SMT V version of P5 Royal or Nocturne Maniax with added content. The fiends were not in original Nocturne, but I can’t imagine the story without them and the other additions.
Tsukuyomi felt more fitting as chaos rep than yuzuru imo
I think a lot of the effort went into the various demon negotiations when it comes to the writing, they even went the extra mile and had specific demons have special conversations with each other. The demons have never had this much personality injected into them prior to this game and as someone who likes SMT mainly for the world and the demons I'm mostly ok with the main cast not getting as much attention.
Amanozako definately got all the attention, lol, also Demeter's and Khonsu's whole quest line too.
@@dantemustdie00 King Frost has a better character than the entire human cast
"WeLl, If it ISN'T tHe DuMbaSS with Too mANy fRiendS!
tHE heLL, buddY!? You STILL GoT No roOm!? So MucH foR FuCkin' HosPiTaLitY!"
@@neoonewingedren1836 I felt so bad for that King Frost, he was such a good boi.
@@DragonEdge10 i had him in my stock in the entire game except the last half because i needed a fusion to beat Zeus
I loved Dazai too and his development. Stuart Allan did a good job
this isn't meant to sound sarcastic but please tell me what you see in Ichiro because he's the most annoying, the most whiney and the most cliche member of the group
He's only the most interesting to me because the other two may as well just not be in the game, they're that non-existent.
He's literally just "waaah I'm not confident, please Abdiel lemme help" and then turns into "heh I don't wear hat anymore. I'm edgy and super confident. Did I mention I can teleport and shit now? Pretty cool huh?"
Truly cannot stand him
This game needed like another Da'at map, or fill in the gap between school invasion and returning to False Tokyo.
False Tokyo should've been a map by itself.
Atleast going from school, temple, dormitory, and research building...
OK I LIED I JUST WANT MORE SCREEN TIME FOR MIYAZU.
Lahmu was worthless.
Can't wait for the Maniax edition with the 5th ending "make a world for me and mommy nuwa"
I was expecting to be able to side with some of the other gods konsu especially after his full side quest.
Remember the dog on the box art that appeared twice in the game? Yea me nethier
You get him in chaos route at level 40 lmao
He is severely under leveled and under powered by the time you get him.
He was supposed to be the first demon that joined you, and was supposed to be used as a mount that you can ride on the game world, but they cut that out and left him as a background character just not to waste artistic and modelling effort
Source:Doi's blog.
It's a shame it suffers from underdevelopment because I honestly love a lot of what's here. With even a bit more time and care, the story could have been genuinely fantastic, but as it stands it's just kinda mid, with the overall narrative only being salvaged by interesting ideas and strong sidequests.
To be honest we waited for 5 years so I can forgive the mid narrative because I love the gameplay.
An SMT game with a mid story?
That shit is so surprising...
"we have a law guy in our group, and when he talks about law stuff, we kind of clown on him"
Me: As you should.
I have two issues with the endings, which are weird issues to start with lol
I'd like to just say that the individual endings themselves are fine and I like them, however what bugs me are the choices themselves. And I know going "I wanted more endings" sounds greedy, but there's a lot of emphasis on you making your vision of the world and all that, yet when it comes down to it, it's other people's visions and you happen to side with one of them, It is why looking back, I like the logic of the Demi-Fiend unable to make his own reason, it forces that limit. (Which you can still break in that game~)
I also find it a bit of a kick in the teeth the 4th ending which requires you to do a lot of the side quest and interact with demons and such, maybe even helping them or what have you, only for you to just throw it all away. While the ending itself is good, I would have liked another option, maybe something akin to what Khonsu's vision was, being a world where Demons and Humans coexisted, which also makes me wonder if that was an plan they had thought of but ultimately cut for time?
Once again I know It just sounds like I'm asking for more endings, but I do like what's there and am just a bit deflated with the choices and how they where presented. That being said, the game still rocks!
doing alot of sidequest is also a thing you need to do in the Neutral path of SMT4 in fact it one of the reason I kinda stopped playing it I couldn't find the last sidequest I needed to do and just decided to fight the archangel.
My hope is they might add a "Manix" version like they did with Nocturne as initially Nocturne only had 5 endings, 3 reason , freedom , demon. Also no Fiends and no Dante/Raidou.
This is my problem as well. It's made even worse by the choice itself. Being able to choose your ending without being karma-locked into Law because you weren't enough of a dick? Great! But when you choose, it gives you voice lines from the reps. Really hammers home how the choice isn't really yours, even though you know by then that it's your ass going on the throne. And then there's the 4th ending, where the Nahobino can't conceive it without being told by Nuwa, and Nuwa and Yakumo lie to everyone about their goal for some reason. Feels like it's hidden just for the sake of having a hidden ending.
Also +1 to wanting a different ending from the offered ones, but my pick would be something Lucifer-aligned, like making everyone, human and demon, into Nahobino. Then again, we know little of the limitations on soulcraft other than that there are some (else YHVH could've just destroyed all Knowledge instead of hoarding it, and angels like Abdiel wouldn't have Knowledge at all), so it may just be impossible.
@@illusive-mike I mean, honestly would be funny just to have an ending where the MC goes "I am now the creator and everyone worship me" or "Idk... Tao is now in charge I'm going to bed" there is a lot they could do with it. And it's a shame they seemed to limit it to just those ideas (though once again I'm sure they did think of them but wasn't sure how to get them fit/finish it in time)
Khonsu was my favorite rep at the summit, so a new ending siding with him would be sick. Perhaps encouraging him and Miyazu to become a nahobino during their side quest.
@@anonymous71207 It would be cool and interesting, like I thought the implications of that quest and the results of it where interesting.
Dazai is basically how every single one of us would act like if we were in the same situation, but we don't want to admit it.
Yeah I've brought this up a lot, but of course the guy who lacks confidence is gonna go crazy the moment he's given power and the promise of a world where humanity will be united under God, where he never has to worry about standing out or being unsure of himself. He finally has the answers, promises and powers he needs, and since it's a massive turn, it's gonna go to his head.
Yes, that's why i like him and i understand what they wanted to do with him but the way the scene worked made law dirty again
Imagine if afther he throw the hat, dazai stays the same but without the hat and he would cut a part of his hair (this have meaning of starting a new phase in Japan) so he would start talking about how he wants a world for God to himself without sounding crazy, then in the end we see him more serious and confident but more friendly towards the protag and less villain, but he would only get mad at you If you reject law
@@neoonewingedren1836 That would work really well. I just think that despite their attempts to make law look bad I liked it more since Dazai is pretty relatable to anyone who lacks confidence, and the edgy thing he does shows that he still doesn't know how to fully act. In any case bringing about law would give him some peace, especially since it's proclaimed Nahobino brings back everyone too.
Sorry, can't watch this video yet since I'm still playing the game and want to do it as blind as possible (will 100% give it a watch after finishing, though), but, from what I have seen of the story in SMT V, there is one thing that has been stuck in my mind for a while now: the absolute crushing tragedy that is the life of Sahori Itsukishima.
Shin Megami Tensei as a series definitely has a bad - or good, depending on your perspective - habit of forcing its characters to go through some really fucked up shit and end up either dead or, in some cases, suffering a fate way worse then death. Being brainwashed, brutally murdered by someone whom you considered a friend, sacrificed (or choosing to sacrifice themselves) to achieve some higher goal, doomed to be eternally trapped in the cycles of rebirth and reincarnation, not to mention completely losing your mind and/or having all your hopes and dreams be crushed right before your eyes - these things, including some stuff I didn't mention, happen in all of SMT or SMT-related games. Not all of them at once, obviously, but there is no title that is completely excluded from the tradition of *someone* drawing the short straw.
Still, when something like this happens, usually at least one of the two following statements is true: the character in question gets fucked due to the protagonist's choice (so it is preventable, and there is an outcome where they don't have to go through mental or physical torture, one way or another usually resulting in their death) or they had a few happy/peaceful/validating moments during the story, so it wasn't *ALL* completely bad. Most of the alignment representatives easily fall into the first category, while some of the less important side characters with tragic fates fit better in the second: for example, Honda from Devil Survivor still had hope of saving his sick son until the very end and acted upon it, Deru-Deka from Devil Survivor 2 died knowing that his daughter was alive and safe, the teacher from Nocturne held the (sadly, unfulfilled) ambition of creating her own Reason, and so did the manikins, and Asahi from Apocalypse had plenty fun and games with the gang before Sheisha fucking ate her. Yes, what happened to them was horrible, but it wasn't like mercilessly kicking someone who is already down.
This is not the case for Sahori. From the moment she is first introduced till the moment she dies, there is not a single good thing that happens to this poor girl. It's all fucked. All of it. Like, imagine being bullied for months or maybe even years by your former teammates because of some dumb reason and willingly avoiding your best and only friend, Tao, because you don't want them getting involved in all this mess. Then some disgusting, abominable creature suddenly appears before you out of literally nowhere, destroying half your school, spouts some nonsense about "being destined for each other" or some other crap, brainwashes/manipulates you into killing two people and abducts you into the hellish, nightmare realm filled with demons. Then, after some time being trapped in that shithole, Tao finally comes to save you, and she even seemingly manages to defeat the terrible monster with the help of some unknown blue-haired boy, but - surprise, surprise - it turns out that you have been already possessed by the demon all along, and he uses your hand to YOU FUCKING KILL YOUR BEST FRIEND. And further yet, as if all that still hasn't been enough to fully break you, Tao miraculously comes back to life and sacrifices herself to help that blue-haired boy, giving him - and you - one final opportuntity to put an end to this.
And you do. You accept your death, because there is no other alternative. After killing three (almost four, five counting the Proto-Fiend) people, after witnessing someone you love die in front of your eyes BECAUSE OF YOU, the only thing you can do is to suppress Lahmu controlling your body for just long enough, so that boy, whom you don't even know and who doesn't know you, can put his blade through your heart, while holding you gently in his embrace during your final moments.
I didn't feel sad when Itsukishima died, because she wasn't given enough screentime for me to get attached to her. Instead, I felt empty. Those last ten-fifteen hours of gameplay, this whole heroic rescue quest ultimately amounted to nothing. Sure, we saved some students, but many more were killed by the demons - their bodies were never found and will never be found. We killed the one responsible, Lahmu, and stoped his plans, but so what? It was insignificant in the grand scheme of things, in the grand war between Law and Chaos. Not to mention, the damage has already been done: Bethel lost a lot of talented personnel, including the Savior, Tokyo as a whole got fucked by this sudden invasion, people are hurt and dying. And the main reason we fought, and fought, and fought all this time - to find and protect Sahori? Just an empty promise now. She's dead, and no one cares, really. For the angels and those in charge of protecting humanity she is just a statistic - simply another life tragically lost in the incident. Her parents will most likely cry for her, and some of her classmates will probably sometimes think of her, but aside from that there is no one really left who will mourn her, who will remember that the person by the name of Sahori Itsukishima ever existed.
Except you. You, the Nahobino - the one who killed her. Even though you didn't know her personally, you will forever hold a part of her inside your own heart, because that awful bond - the bond between the killer and the victim - will never go away, as long as your humanity is still intact. *You* will remember that she lived. And *you* will remember the sacrifice that poor-poor girl, forced into all this mess, made as her last will.
(Also, as someone who, like I said, haven't yet finished the game: even if she somehow comes back to life, and all of this essay turns out to be meaningless - I don't care, pls don't spoil. Thanks!)
I dodged ALL trailers by not knowing about the game until it came out, I loved every second
You uploaded this right as i beat the game
The streets been waiting for this one
SMT V story discussion
Thanks for watching
I feel like this game's story is probably appreciated by those who are aware of Kabbalah and it's concepts. I really like how this game portrayed Ein Sof, or in this game they call it the Mandala System. Essentially a god that cannot be understood as a being but infinity itself that allows others to conceive of it but only partially. And you are forever in a loop that cannot be dismantled because the system, or being, cannot be destroyed as you cannot even possibly perceive of it.
I love how the game puts you in the center of the Sefirot and then you go through the game transcending the Sefirot and the 4 worlds symbolically to become a god. Only to be met with the knowledge that no matter what you do, there will always be a world and an existence higher than you, making your free will as a god null.
I like how they did the 3 keys signifying the 3 columns of the Sefirot or the Tree of Life.
Unrelated to Kabbalah, but how they handled Tao was very interesting. Probably one of the more interesting interpretations of The Virgin Mary I've ever experienced in media. The idea of having the birth through a symbolic passing of a portal or a hole as a birth into godhood was insanely well done.
I could go on about the symbolism in the game and how they use the games mechanics to help tell the story or even the ui. But some simples examples would be
1) Learning the concept of the Mandala system and then realizing the UI of the game has a ton of circles everywhere.
2) Shiva being as strong as he is. If there's a god or a concept that could bring about the destruction of a system, it would be Shiva. And i like how they make him as strong as he is to really hammer home that idea.
There's a lot of story in this game and it is well written or shown very well, and has done so in a lot of ways that have simply not been done before. Little things, such as the placing of where Abdiel was able to eat the apple, are accurate to where Eden would be placed in the context of the 4 worlds and where the throne or Beriah.
This is also a game where it demands an insane amount of knowledge on the players end to appreciate it's writing. I don't know if that means the writing is bad but it surely one of the most gatekeepy games i've played in my lifetime.
Also I love how they connected this game to Nocturne through Kabbalah concept of Sitra Achra. It is also known as Qlippoth, Tree of Death or The Other Side. Just as there are 10 Sefirot or branches in the Tree of Knowledge or Tree of Life, there are 10 branches in the Qlippoth representing 10 Demons. In this game they replace 8 of the original demons with the 8 Fiends in Nocturne. Then they add Demi-Fiend making it 9 and Lucifer from Nocturne is already present since he killed god, so that would make it 10. It pretty much ties in why these 2 games universes are so tight knit yet being separate at the same time.
I still think the writing is bad because sure all of those references and intricate setpieces are cool, characters are arguably the most forgettable for me out of the SMT games I've played (4/4A, DDS, Noc and SJ) and the overall structure is honestly just gross considering the type of story it's trying to tell.
Very few actual plot points in an otherwise looong ass game make everything aggressively disjointed and most lore is dumped on you in the last 10% of the game it feels like.
Tao was probably the most egregious example of a character being important but I barely even consider her a character, and just a mere plot device.
The world and lore are good
Characters bad
The story would be just "fine" if the humans characters were well done because everything else having more potential or not was minimalistic but good and small details added a lot to this game
Non ironically i would like they adding Fire Emblem Supports like thing (Just without marriage) in Smt
This would help a lot in situations like these and also these supports could give you more than just character talk(similiar to P5 with the rewards in the confidants)
@@neoonewingedren1836
The only character I find bad is Daizai. This isn't because the ideas behind him are bad, it's because the execution behind the ideas weren't fleshed out.
They didn't adequately juxtapose his fascination with higher or spiritual ideas enough with the rest of the cast, so his turning seemed out of place or rushed.
I'm not entirely sure how they could've made it more in place without just adding more textboxes talking about how every decision or thought ends up in a physical or spiritual box which moves the person further or closer towards humanity. Not unlike how actions in Kabbalah either end up being an action in sitra achra or sitra kedusha.
Abdiel on the other hand is very much faithful to their character in Paradise Lost. I think they depicted her very well. And then built upon her fanatical love for the Creator in a pretty realistic sense. I could go on about the others.
@@walter4180
Thanks for reading my shit lmao.... so like the disjoint here, is what you perceive as references or set pieces, aren't really that. They are integral to the game, hence why I feel it's very gatekeepy.
The 1st 1/4th of the game is establishing that the origins of the story are a take on the first few books of Paradise Lost. The differences are that they add nuance with the plot points of Nahobino and how they were divided for a time, they group in all deities and gods as being punished instead of just demons, and they also consolidate the history of the Babylonian captivity into this as well (we learn this later). Lucifer takes the place of Satan in this game. From this point they refer to Tokyo as the Netherworld, implying you are lower or in some sort of hell. From this point on the player assumes it's a Christian story, although there are hints of Judaism.
Once we return to fake Tokyo when we find out the game is taking place within the Four Worlds (this is sort of a plot twist). Lahmu breaks into Assiah and refers to it as such. When the player returns to the Netherworld, you learn this is Da'at, the 11th hidden sefirot where all 10 are active. Easy to assume from here that the real Tokyo is in Yetzirah, elevated to this place from this game's Conception. And from here it's obvious it's Kabbalah, a lot of other shit happens from this point on that is actually pretty meaningful and paced well. Especially with the True Demon DLC, it's very clean cut.
but...
I feel like the characters are fine for what this story is about. Dazai is really the only one who I feel really stood out in a way where it wasn't good, it was awkward. The execution of his insanity was pitiful and probably should have been scaled back. I think taking off his cap and then having a more serious face while having glowing yellow eyes to indicate he is using his Knowledge would've been more appropriate.
This game is about determinism, and respectfully critiquing the theological assumption that there is free will if there is a god. And even if humans could control who our god is or even how many, it doesn't move us as a human race towards having free will. We still arrive at the same destination of being lesser or not able to control our fate. It is a nihilistic game with a nihilistic message for those who want to engage on it, on it's level.
It uses the humans as tools to be exploited by the gods like Sahori and Tao. And sometimes it uses the humans to show the gods love for the lesser humans like Aogami/Protag, Khonsu/Miyazu and Nuwa/Yakumo... all depicting different types of love. Whether it be unconditional, pure or lustful. But it isn't a character study and that's not indicative of bad writing. I don't think they should've advertised it as a character focused game in trailers.
Just finished my first playthrough, went with Law, thought Dazai was going in just the coolest direction he could've went in and then he just friggin dies man lmfao what the heck
I think Abdiel could've totally kicked the bucket and it could've been fine but Dazai just getting one-shot like that was so underwhelming and I can't help but let that experience taint everything else I loved about the story until that point. I think even just having him walk with the protag by the end credits would've brought about way more closure.
I completely agree that map 3 or even map 2 could have just flat out not existed since the story really on starts out at map 4 where everything from before is rather unimportant. What was the point to all that stuff with Lahmu? It seemed like they are setting up Sahori as Chiaki but she just dies... Tao dies too only to come back for no particular reason.
I was literally just thinking about when this type of video would come out
Good shit bois
This was the only time I chose Law in the 4 games I've played.
I had to think on it for a little bit between choosing Neutral and Law. Chaos was out of the question. Tsukiyomi barely did anything and his end goal was barely better than what was currently going on. And he had an obsession with just Japan (which is his right of course.)
Neutral was close. But I feel Neutral didn't do anything at all in this game except bother me. You can mumbo jumbo reasonings all you want, but besides your intro, you were inconsequential and do not give me a reason to believe humans are better off on their own.
Law, I actually understood Abdiel's reasonings even if I didn't agree with her. One thing in particular I've noticed piss people off was that she tries to kill you. I expected her to try much earlier, because she even hinted at it. In the end she only tried to kill me to keep Bethel unified. That was the most 'business decision' attack in the whole game for me. I liked that she refused to become a Nahobino, because it was against her code. Now she ends up teaming with Dazai, but in the Law Route she never actually becomes a Nahobino, which I find perfect. She does fall however and that was rough for me to see, because she was doing so good until that point.
Dazai also called out chaos straight up with a 'then what happens? You can't even agree now.' And that point was never destroyed. I can at least point to Japan being preserved by god as proof of Law working. Even Tsukiyomi expresses gratitude about that situation.
The actual Law ending is. . .ehhhh. Typical SMT ending .
The problem with law is Abdiel and Dazai transformation's presentation being weird with Atlus trying hard to make law evil
But honestly the only reasonable endings in this game are law and Neutral
Everything else is... No
Nahobino thanos snap every demon friend but in the end the mandala system returns because the franchise needs to continue
The chaos world would be just our world but with super politicians
Neutral... Honestly i choose it because Nuwa -is hot- and Yakumo is cool
But law is the best one
Man I beat the game 4 days ago and I ended up getting the 4th route, cuz I beat Shiva and did every challenge quest. Took me 85 hours and 30 mins.
And then I choose to destroy the Throne, but man my soul was crushed when Tao left.
Cuz I got myself and Tao up to level 90 to fight Shiva. And her leaving just....Man. and then it got worse when I chose to make a world for humans and then Aogami said he would cease to be and...Gah.
And then with the credits, I realized my boy the Nanabino was completely alone. All classmates dead, Tao, Aogami, and amanozaki. Just that realization made me adore the game more.
Also my boy Dazai, I felt so bad for him. I wanted so hard to support him, but Yakumo. The raidou impersonator who stole my heart.....Even if I kinda supported Tsukyomi more.
About the hidden ending. I assume that by doing these quests you gain Nuwa's trust. Nuwa said herself that she saw Sahori situation so I think it's save to assume that she was observing MC.
I quite liked Dazai as a character, with him developing over the story and all. Always gave him all the support options and everything. I actually stopped when he joined Abdiel and said to my wife that I was upset about him being an enemy because he effectively said "I'm stupid, so I've chosen not to think anymore" because I wanted him to do well.
I chose the neutral "red dot" route, since it makes more sense that having one being ruling everything wouldn't suit everyone. That's why empires always crumble. Don't care what anyone says, breaking the throne is dumb and actual chaos.
Well, the problem with Dazai is that he basically says to you "Thinking is hard, head empty, no thoughts" and yet later in the game he is supposed to be one of the people who is supposed to present his vision of the world? I just... Don't get it. He basically says he is a gullible dumbass outright to you, and then the game presents him as a viable ideological choice. After he already said he is a dumbass,so he probably did not think very hard about his views.
I like the idea of these characters, but like we spend no time with them outside Dazai. Miyazu is more well developed as a side character than her brother! Who is a damn alignment rep!
Aside from Dazai, they really fucked over the student characters, like damn killing off Tao, Yuzuru pretty much becoming non-existant, Miyazu even MORE non-existant and doesn't get any voice lines past when you get back to school, like c'mon Atlus your way better than that at humanizing your characters.
I find it humorous that Amanozako got more character developement than ANYONE, hell all her quest are fully voiced too, it's clear they prioritized her over any other character, like damn.
I'm fine with it. Tao dying felt like a surprise, and at least Yuzuru got her own side-quest. SMT stories are driven by their world and the plot, it's generally not as character driven as the spin-off series. These characters were written more like archetypal representations of their alignments rather than fully fleshed out characters and I think they succeeded in that. Spending game time humanizing them with extraneous dialogue would detract from the main plot, and their thoughts and feelings just aren't as interesting to hear about as their actions are to see. Extra voice lines would've been nice, I agree, but watching these characters makes choices informs you about their character AND moves the plot forward, which seemed to be important choice made for the pacing of the game. I sympathize with those who have difficulty connecting with those characters because of the lack of context their choices are given. The writers really relied on the player to engage in a certain amount of thematic inference to give these characters meaning.
TL;DR I feel you. Was pretty good though.
I'm fine with Tao dying for the most part, outside of the two main issues I have with that portion of the plot in general: First, why the hell did they have Lahmu manage to oneshot knockout Nahobino-kun, despite us clearly having kicked his ass barely an hour ago, conveniently long enough for the situation to get out of hand and him be able to escape with Sahori to the netherworld? Sure, you could argue that he ended up getting more powerful from the magatsuhi from the attack on the school as well as being near his human knowledge, but it felt so contrived that Nahobino-kun would not interfere with what is clearly Sahori threatening the students, Aogami not being able to detect that Lahmu's presence was right next to her, and that Lahmu suddenly got powerful enough to knock us out cold for just as long as they needed to kill the students and then escape, but not powerful enough to actually cause us any lasting damage.
Second, why in the damn hell do we not just smack the shit out of Lahmu before he can do anything and talk to Sahori after the threat is gone? The game even prompts you with a choice that asks whether you should prioritise eliminating Lahmu while he's caught off guard or protecting Sahori, and instead we stand there like a dope looking on as Lahmu takes in his knowledge and powers up, despite knowing full well how powerful Nahobino can be on account of being one ourselves. Like, they could've had Lahmu summon some demons to keep us occupied in order to protect Tao, but instead they make us look on and stand still as an enemy that has already proven to us is a threat (slowly) gets himself a powerup that also happens to harm the target of our rescue mission. Considering it's also a narrative point that we smack Lahmu enough that he must power up, and then still loses and has to resort to trickery to ambush us, it's blatantly obvious that had we simply dashed in beamsword hands blazing, none of this would have ever escalated to where it did.
So while I'm perfectly fine with the fact that both Sahori and Tao end up dying from that from a narrative perspective, I really dislike it due to how it's executed, since the way it plays out makes it feel like Nahobino-kun just threw and as a result let a friend and a classmate die for no reason.
@@drewb1979 These characters weren't written at all mate.
Ichiro was and is the most obnoxious character in the game who just turns into an anime villain as they needed a reason for him to be relevant.
Tao dying didn't surprise me because I didn't give a shit about her and she was barely a character.
Glasses guy was boring as all sin and barely a character and the girl with glasses was as the OP said, even worse than him.
You can have characters written as archetypes and still be written well and actually be idk, people instead of toy soldiers just being placed down when the plot needs them. They can still be INTERESTING.
You also mentioned their actions but what actions do you even mean? Sure we see them do "things" but we BARELY EVER see them do ANYTHING.
I knew what the characters were about and I understood everything about them. It's not about the player not engaging with them at all. It's simply that they're badly written, boring characters.
Nocturne did pretty much anything story/character related better than 5 with a similar story structure. No masterpiece in that department either but I at least remember Isamu and Chiaki after all these years and I can barely remember the names of the siblings after a few weeks. In Noc I was at least wondering from time to time "hmm, wonder what's happening with Isamu" but in 5 I just dreaded the next slog of a cutscene that Ichiro would be in where he just whines all the time. Like "we get it Ichiro, you're weak, not confidant but still want to help. That is literally all you are as a character".
I'm all up for different interpretations but I simply cannot agree that any of these characters are any better than mediocre plot fodder.
Lemme put it another way. Some demon conversations and special interactions were better written than these characters.
That's pretty bad.
Excellent Video! Literally a Nocturne sequel, The mask of Gozu Tennoh plus all of the dialogue with Daisoujou, those aren’t just references those are direct connections.
After 100 hours I am confident that watching this video won't spoil me
Dazai teleporting was one of the best moments of all of Metaten for me. Shit hit me out of left field
loved this discussion!
The only thing that bugs me a bit is that with how the route lock occurs means there is little to no exclusive content for each route. SMT IV had at least one whole dungeon to every ending except for one, where it has none for very obvious reasons. Meanwhile in SMT V there's maybe 2 fights and maybe 1-2 sidequests.
I'unno, all the routes are on the cover of the game. It's just like them to follow the theme of the games... How much more we notice after every cycle of being alive, as the nahobino, if you will. How much more we pick up through every emanation of our own divinity. It may be contrived, but it's about the journey. I could have seen that cover or scenes of monsters and not have understood their importance to the story or what I was even looking at. I too heavily avoided spoilers. I didn't watch shit, BUT trailers. They showed off a good bit, yeah, but I had no idea what I was even looking at in hindsight.
I like Dazai, until I don't. I can't stand the whole "aha my personality has completely changed, look I slicked my hair back so you know I'm evil" trope. Like, you say you really like it cuz its just dumb, and that's the exact reason I hate it. Honestly if they kept everything the same, but didn't radically change his personality at the end, I probably wouldn't hate him. Its weird he's suddenly super confident and giving orders to Abdiel when the entire point of his worldview is that he's not confident and wants a higher power to help him feel secure. He gets props for being the most developed alignment rep, but that's mostly because you barely see the other two.
I feel like I'd have preferred if he just turned his hat around instead lol
>takes off hat with the words "sucker" on it
>is no longer a sucker
is this the 'subtle storytelling' that SMT fans keep talking about?
Also, it fucks me up that you can only choose to kill all gods and demons after doing all the quests that demonstrate that they're people, too.
Honestly, I feel the Prime Minister ties in with a way the world is reborn because he even states it happens before, and then there's a few demons with the holy sword. I'm wondering if the Prime Minister was in fact holding knowledge about what happened in nocturne. That's why they have a proto instead of a demi. The whole point of Nahobino just screams Demi.
In my opinion, my favorite endings were Chaos then Law then Secret then Neutral.
Secret is only so low because I was attached to the Demons like Konsu and Amanazako and did not like the idea of killing them. I also interpreted Chaos sort of like a council. Gods could do as they pleased but Nahobino would actively step in and big things would have to go though him.
Yessss been waiting for this
I think they're only giving you small tidbits of info because this is pretty much, based on miman dialog, a sequel to Nocturne. Opening up with Lucifer pretty much killing god is what he intended to do by the end of Nocturne & it just kind of all fits together if you view it as a continuation. In Vengeance I'm pretty sure there's more dialog that really drives it home, especially the Haunt and Demi-Fiend & Lucifer conversations. I know a lot of people don't want to jump to that conclusion but it feels like all of the pieces are there and fit though.
Imagine just casually saying you beat the demi-fiend.
I'm late but I can already envision an SMT5A where Odin, Shiva, Khonsu, and Zeus all find their knowledge in an alternate universe and that open up even more endings. It would be great schlock and fan service to see Nahobino fusion forms for those characters. Miyazu and Khonsu got me to this concept for a game because it felt like Miyazu was supposed to be a main character as she was introduced like one and Khonsu was a god that ended up being sidequest stuff. I can easily see a what if sequel similar to SMT4A with this game that allows for new endings with all the important gods. The game also makes Goto out to be an important character when all he really does is just observe what happens and is so inconsequential to the story, an SMT5A could fix that by adding a Goto route.
Oh yeah plus the Lahmu and the bullied girl could potentially be their own route since they almost became a Nahobino.
My biggest surprise about this game was that Scott the Woz actually liked it
Surprisingly this game's law route had cooler characters than the chaos route.
I like that they sort of foreshadowed this game by releasing the SMT 3 Remaster before. It was like the developers were reminding you of the part 1 before delivering the part 2 of the narrative. Dragon Ball did something similar by re-releasing the Broly and Fusion Reborn movies before the DBS Broly movie, to remind you of original designs of Broly and Gogeta. I'm so happy we finally got a follow up on the ending TDE left us with. TDE overall made the ending seem like it was only the first step in the overall goal of dismantling these systems of higher power that get to decide how the universe works, to make way for proper freedom for humanity. But of course you can decide to go against that long term goal since this is SMT after all.
You wanna talk cut content? Take a look at those in-cutscene prompts that you occasionally get, the ones with the stylized text that's got a bunch of flickering effects over it. At the bottom of the screen, just barely in sight, you can see the same effect popping up with the top halves of letters occasionally being visible. Those letter only appear on the bottom making it hard to call it a stylistic choice for the borders, the letters change, and they don't line up with what the prompts say. I'm convinced that those are cut responses that they hid by just cropping them out.
The only thing I don't like about how they went with Dazai - why did they give him an obvious evil grin after a certain point?
Aogami seemingly makes a Terminator reference when you meet him.
"Young man, take my hand if you wish to live."
Honestly the most confusing thing to me was having to beat Shiva. The rest of the quests may not make sense story wise but doing all the content to unlock something extra makes sense.
Shiva would destroy the world because of his ritual but by defeating him, you stop that.
O got the 4 ending without killing shiva
@@kaueleao9957 If it was on a repeat playthrough, you may have already defeated Shiva on a previous playthrough. The game is looking at your demon analysis, not what you've done during that playthrough.
For True Neutral: Its not centered around her, its about sidelining all possible challengers to the Throne. It just happens that Khonsu's story intertwines with hers.
i was gonna go chaos on ym 1st run, but as i progressed i realized based dazai was all i needed to switch to law. dazai's the best alignment rep since walter imo
There definitely feels like there was a cut area with more time for people like Yuzuru, Yakumo and the Bethel branches. Overall though the story was still enjoyable but seemed like stuff was missing for time.
I recently finished SMT5 for the first time.
I think for me, the game was too light and thematic because I actually tuned out with the few exceptions where I was like "whoa" such as Goddess Tao, or Dazai's transformation (if he threw his cap away like Terry, I probably would've chose his side in a heartbeat).
As for the characters though? I can't say I liked any of them necessarily since I honestly barely know them. Dazai gets the most development, but I still don't feel like I know him that well personally. but Tao is the one that infuriates me the most because she's the one that the most by your side, but says nothing.
Side note about Tao, but it sucks that you can't take her into NG+, but Amanozako can.
I haven't got the chance to go for the 4th ending, maybe I will since I might be able to just blast through it all. Good to know Miyazu gets some screen time finally, but I don't really see it as a good thing if it happens at the very end.
Just finished my first play through just a couple hours ago!
I didn't feel like grinding an extra 15 levels to beat Shiva.