Why Did PCGS Label My Coin Like This? I've Never Seen This Before!
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Why Did PCGS Label My Coin Like This? I've Never Seen This Before!
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Why Did PCGS Label My Coin Like This? I've Never Seen This Before!
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Im thinking slot machine. I know many years ago the Las Vegas casinos used silver dollars in their slot machines.
Good morning! Thanks for making the informative videos. My son and I have questioned some of the grades our coins have received. PCGS grading isn't cheap. You know good and well the PCGS grading process involves a procedure (perhaps checklist). Why can't PCGS include a copy of the coin's grade procedure and explanation/justification of the grade? Hank from S.C.
Because they have a lot of coins to grade and they don’t have time to do that for each and every coin when there’s like 20 coins in an order.
I would just call it altered surfaces.
I would also call it a pity.
Love your videos keep up the great work very informative and entertaining
Its possible that they correctly assessed UNC details but assessed the wrong problem on this coin meant for another Morgan dollar. They constantly deal with so many submissions Daniel. Is my opinion a possibility?
It's always possible.
I have many coins with those lines,,,always in the field, never on any raised areas. I always thought of them as feeder marks or over polished die lines. Curious to see what you come up with.
That's a new one to me. Thanks for sharing. That's a nice educational keeper
Are we sure this is caused by post-mint damages? The fact that the lines on the obverse are on the field but not the device strongly suggests it’s either a planchet damage or something happened with the die, maybe polish marks (over polished die, which is plausible seeing the proof-like surface). Perhaps that’s what “machine damage” implies per PCGS. Hope this helps
There’s no doubt these are post mint cleaning lines, but I am questioning the machine damage. This damage didn’t happen during the coin minting process. Thanks
I had one that was previously labeled ms64 that came back machine damaged and a coin dealer said it was possibly a coin counter. Pcgs graded it both times. Once ms64 and second time machine damage unc details
Not surprised.
The fine lines in a way resemble planchet striations.
Agree. I’ve got some dimes (like a series-there’s also a progression of die cracks) that have marks like that in the fields and I was told that’s what they are.
I can't say I've seen that on a PCGS holder Daniel. If I have, I probably passed over it. I dont see machine damage on it. Sometimes it makes you wonder. If they would only explain what they see instead of just putting something on the label and expecting the owner to figure it out.
Actually, once in a blue moon I've come across a coin that was apparently purposely defaced. For example I had a penny that had a triangle carelessly scratched into the obverse, ruining the coin. Apparently some people have mental lapses sometimes.
Back in the day, did people not feed these coins into gambling machines? I’m thinking that maybe there is a situation where maybe inside the shoot there was a part that could do that? Totally a guess on my part
Thats a good theory but wouldn't coin slide and change position in the slot and the damage done was specific to one area
@@richardcope8102 true. 100% agree. I know there was an electric Mechanical counter in the days before electronics and I was thinking maybe one got stuck in there. But, yeah, I don’t see how it would be so specific in that type of damage
From the handling and banging around in casino use, this coin might not make Unc details. In casino vaults yes, unc. Used in machines most likely not.
In 1960 my mom hit an $80 payout on her first pull. She quit and brought them home. My brother would climb in the kitchen cabinet, push a cardboard tube through the drawer opening and we’d play slot machine. Great memories!
@@acousticshadow4032 We also played nudist colony. Only our younger cousin disrobed as my sister reasoned that the president, vice-president and the security guard of the colony should keep their clothes on.
Never seen or heard that used on a PCGS label, either it's a new phrase for them or you have a rare one of a kind holdered dollar that should go on Etsy. ;)
There appears to be what looks like a roll wrapping mark on the reverse between the rim and ERICA in AMERICA? Or check that damaged area? Looks non contact mark and more like damage. 2:48
thanks Daniel.
Interesting. There's a 1921 Peace Dollar AU Details Machine Dmg on eBay and it's difficult to say what they're referring to on that one. Lots of scratches on the holder plus bad photos. Looks straight up AU Details to me best i can tell.
How about a Vegas Slot machine pulling the coin into the holder.
I've seen "Whizzed" on an NGC label. Someone did that to a '55 double die and sent it in for grading.
That would be a sad thing to see !...you just want to find the person who did it and ask..WHY !?!?
@@morgansinner You can find a picture of it on the Stack's Bowers archived auction sales.
I was looking through ebay at 1969 s doubled dies the other day, closest I've seen to that is "Genuine wrapper dmg"
On there website it says it doesn't have to be intentional damage. They also mention it can be damage from a coin counting machine. That's it 🤷♀️
Yes. I've read that.
it's feeder finger damage from the mint in the making....many people collect these on ebay...it's fairly common
You’re mistaken. I know what that looks like and this isn’t even close. I recommend you do some research at error-ref.com.
If it was feeder finger scrapes PCGS would have labeled it as such, they didn’t even use feeder fingers to feed Morgan planchets into the coining chamber as they do today, it was a different set up.
1st time for everything, learn something new everyday
That’s a stumper. Thanks Daniel
The machine that damaged it is most likely a counting machine, it would have had a small rubber or leather wheel that grabbed the coins and likewise hairline them.
I have one coin with this label I'll see if I can get a photo.
Usually they put roller marks on those. Thanks
Likewise, I have a newer $0.25 Washington facing right quarter, in and that the date has diagonal rays above the date too. It's not on other quarters I've noticed. Else, I'd show you a picture, if it were capable of being uploaded here. Ask, if interested.
Beautiful 81-S, aside from the localized cleaning. Those early S mints rock.
Thanks Daniel!
I’m noticing the scratch marks are behind the date. I could be wrong.
They're not, these are post mint all the way. My question is why not just cleaned, why Machine damage?
A coin counting machine that utilized a rubber wheel. When the coin got stuck, the wheel would slip on the coin polishing a very small area. Often they are hard to see.
Then it should have been counter wheel damage. I have those as well.
I agree with Justathome probably a slot machine because really didn't use very sophisticated machines.
Ok sir quick question. Cleaning a coin with magic eraser . it's a sponge pad not a pencil top. ..... Thoughts? 👀inquiring mind wants to know lol
Nope, NEVER do that.
Hi Daniel.Ya that is a little weird. 😊
As a casual observer I'd say that those scratches above the date happened to the blank before the coin was struck.
They did not, they are post mint or PCGS would have not have labeled as damaged.
Great looking coin ......but very strange marking on it (?) . This is a first fer me . Thanks Dan , Tom Daytona Beach , FL . 3 , June 2024 .
A new person on their mile long assembly line doesn’t know the proper grading language! Have a great day Sir Daniel!
This is damage from a coin roller. I appreciate PCGS for recognizing this unfortunate damage came from equipment designed to package for shipping large amounts of coins.
It should be roller marks then not machine damaged, they use different terms for similar issues and it creates confusion.
I’m noticing the scratch marks are behind the date. I could be wrong.
They're not behind it.
In 1977 I was in Las Vegas with 4 friends. We saw a slot machine that paid in silver dollars. Each of us ponied up a buck and on the 4th pull we won $20 and split it 5 ways. I believe I still have them comingled with others I have accumulated.
I'm stumped. I don't even know how they did that. How do you only get the low areas between the date without getting the date and liberty as well?
Human hands IMO using a tool.
@@CoinHELPu That's extremely precise how parallel the lines are. But yeah, I can't see how a machine would do it. This might sound dumb, but there's no chance someone did that to the die and then the micro lines got struck into the coin is there?
These lines are not raised.
Exactly I got my 1862 $20 gold back it had a small scratch they said it was upgradable. I'll never send another one
I think they are saying that was done by a high speed soft brush wheel, caused by too much pressure being applied.
Wouldn't that be labeled as Whizzed, or is whizzing done with a different high speed tool?
It's not whizzed/
@@CoinHELPu what else would do that?
I had just sent two 1943 steels and PCGS graded both as replated. Who would replate a steel cent? My bank gave them to me. Have you heard of it before?
Late last year,purchased a 20.00$ dbl eagle,slabbed and graded by pcgs.marked as a 10.00$ coin and cleaned,neither applied.aparently theres issues there.
I think the fact that CAC has come on the scene, they may be trying to be more honest with a grade. I have never seen a PCGS coin with that grade that I can think of either (this one is on ebay right now though) "1936 DDO FS-103 (FS-016) PCGS Genuine Machine Dmg-Unc Details" Awesome video, thanks for the new info.
I love unsolved mysteries. I hope you start a series of them.
Is it possible that the coin was encased in cardboard and cellophane when a fire broke out which melted the cellophane onto the coin? The bottom received the most damage and the top edge also suffered some water damage. It was probably cleaned with a steel wire polishing brush.
Everything is speculative until someone like Daniel with the experience and expertise can identify. To me it appears the 2 areas in question are very specific, the "rough" areas dont appear to have hit raised areas except possibly the date. Since you have determined coin was cleaned id have to say that in the process of enhancing the coin whoever dis that was maybe trying to remove "spots" that didnt come off during said " enhancement".
Nobody can make perfect parallel lines with a Dremel. I can't really tell if those lines come up onto the devices. If they don't, then the scratches were there before the coin was struck, right. If that's the case then can't you appeal the grade.......Love the channel.
Yes, one can, people can do anything they want to a coin. There’s a lot of master crafters, jewelers, and hobo nickel carvers that can make a coin look like anything they want.
That's not feeder finger damage?
No it is not, the minting process was different then.
I JUST WANDER IF YOU SUBMIT THIS MORGAN DOLLAR TO CACG OR NGC HOW THIS COIN WOULD COME BACK WITH A GRADE OR NOT??
No, it would not.
Did they mean wheel mark from a counting machine that's what I assume I never seen that label before but have seen wheel mark on labels.
Why send it in?
I explained that in the video.
Can see exactly what they are meaning with that label. Most definitely a dremel or jewelers drill with a burnisishing tool/tip or fine wire wheel. The date, the stars, and other lettering appear to have been 'enhanced' as an artificial frosty appearance has been created. Looks like the tool got away from them in a couple places (like around the date numerals) helping to give it away. Thanks for the share.
Does the machine dmg rating affect the value a lot, a little or not at all?
Very good and interesting video Daniel.
The printing machine has an error and it results in the labels saying "MachineDmg"
Just kidding, idk.
MAYBE? They are using a more descriptive term other than WHIZZED?
With as much as we pay to get coins graded, they should come with a personally written breakdown of each coin and its grade and at least a brief of why it received the grade it did. I pay roughly the same to have my oil analyzed and I get a note from the person doing the analysis. Then you wouldn’t have to ponder this quandary.
Something happened during the machine process at the mint. It is at least a rare label indeed
No, that’s is not correct. It would be labeled as a mint error and it is NOT a mint error, it’s post mint damaged.
How can it be only on the field portion of the design. Planchets are machined. Clips and curved clips are not called planchet errors. Could it be at the planchet stage?
40 years of grading and I'm stumped.
back in about ‘07, I would purchase coins from a reputable local coin shop, and I would ask two or three other experts in the area, other coin shops:
Should I send this in to PCGS? They would look at it and say that,
“it doesn’t look like it was cleaned, send it in.”
So I would send it in and a month later it would come back,
“CLEANED”
and not even in a holder.
Now, nowadays they do put it in a holder ‘with details.’
So, thusly, nowadays the only coins I will buy are PCGS MS70 and PF70 ASE.
What experts have postulated is that, for example, on your Morgan dollar.
PCGS wants to keep the population of graded coins, down, so as to not ruin the value of the coins already graded. I have heard from coin shops that, PCGS is:
P - Preferred
C - Customer
G - Grading
S - Service.
More on this later.
Its damage from coin counting machines.
It's not new, but it is unusual. 🤷♂️
I have coins labeled counting wheel damage, that’s not the question, they put machine damaged instead.
Good morning Daniel from Maryland .
Thats weird. Maybe it was a prospective date change that was not fully carried through or it was put there to disguise a blemish.
I Hope you get a great answer to your question that puts this conundrum to bed once and for all.
Using steel wool to disguise a blemish , stranger things have happened 😂
Human grading is outdated and inconsistent. PCGS need to use AI grading.
AI is fake. Good luck to you who will be relying on it with your brain chips and constant mRNA gene therapies.
I wish we could actually talk to the individuals who assigned the grade to see what machine they think did this. I am no kinda of expert but I can’t imagine a machine that would scratch up the fields but NOT the raised devices. Anybody?
The coin has a lot of chatter all over it.
Most Morgan Dollars do, that’s very common.
I have seen them with "wheel marks"
Not at all Dan, I have tool and die exp and the parallel lines under the bust to the date weren't done by hand, a Dremel, no effin' way, those lines were on the hammer die in that area and the super small area they're in, plus like I mentioned the parallelism between lines in would make a mould polisher laugh.
These where not on the die, I have the coin in hand and these are post mint scratches. PCGS would not label die lines as damage. You’re must think, you’re looking at a video, not the coin. Also, you haven’t seen the coin damage and coin art I’ve seen, these areas are small, less than the width of a rotary tool bit.
PCGS broke my heart with my latest submission
Thank you
That’s the first I’ve seen. It seems like an unnecessary thing for PCGS to make a determination on the cause of an issue. That machine sure was very specific in its damaging. I’m not sure I buy that reason and don’t see the need to make a guess.
Whizzed and polished.
Nope
I think either a coin counting machine or possibly hung up in a mint machine. Hand polishing just can't match the symmetrical lines. Still thinking they could have labeled it at least MS64
On the upside, I’m sure some collectors would like to have rare curios like this in their collection.
I can see a coin rolling machine but that doesn't qualify for that coin plus it's details on top of machine damage they minus well just put authentic Morgan dollar on the slab
Casinos used to use silver dollars for their machines. Could those marks have been made by the slot machines or the casino cleaning them in some way?
I would call PCGS and ask what exactly machine damage is. my guess is machine is a general term to mean any instrument that could cause damage unless someone processed this in a machine counter at some point in time.
I got a pcgs slabbed con say genuine tool damaged
IMHO, machine damage due to insertion on a casino slot would have occurred on the devices more than the field itself or both. The lines are only on the field...hum, grading is an opinion 🎉
Hello Daniel
When one pays for a grade, one should receive a grade…not an opinion on a coin’s’ butt hairs…
Give it a grade PCGS..!!!
I’d be cracking that slab and switching grading companies…
It is cleaned, I would get the same result.
INTRUSION ON TRUST
Like Harsh cleaning that is what I see
why do you keep using them pcgs and what not is a total scam
Have to be on there to receive paper currency grading privileges
Interesting
That looks to me like a die issue....scratched or improperly polished. No machine did that.
I would never pay for someone "opinion". what a scam!
Anytime you buy a coin you’re paying for someone’s opinion, the person selling is selling their coins based on their opinion of grade, condition or value.
Damage is damage is damage. Bag marks and denticle impressions are damage. Grade the dang coin, taking into account the damage, and stop with the details stuff. The polished designation is infuriating too. 27-S Unc Peace $ - has frost, swirls, no fine lines yet details polished with no explanation. The horror....a shiny coin.
I agree, if a coin is truly uncirculated with no wear on it but gets a ms 68 because of a few dings how is that not damaged. Most coins never leave the mint in perfect shape so now what any coin could be machine damaged by the mints own sorting machine.
Probably some die touch-up that an earlier owner tried to rub out a bit? 3:31
No die touch up.