As a 21-year-old dreaming, this breakdown helps a lot. Going to follow this until completion and once its my time ill use all this information. Thank you for this it truly helps and does wonders. Keep up the great work
Guys. I just wanted to say thank you. Amidst this health and economic crisis we're in, I've spent most of my time stressed about not losing my business. I absolutely needed this distraction and reminder that goals and dreams are still achievable. I legit needed this video. Thank you.
Good luck Jerry with the business! With just about everyone struggling now, we weren't sure if the timing was right to discuss this subject. But with it being such and important part of the process- and the part we worry the most- we felt it needed to be broached early on in the timeline. It's a tacky subject (especially to discuss finances where we are from), but promised transparency from the beginning. Good or bad. Again, for everyone sake, I hope this recent rally translates into the economy coming back stronger than ever. Matt
@@rogerfranz1256 sometimes all you need is a goal. A person who isn't deterred can be an inspiration to people even if all people don't agree with them. It's a relief. They aren't a burden on the system or on others. They're chasing a dream and paying as they go. Good for them. Keep going and don't stop. My business is failing because all of a sudden I can't evict, can't collect, and am expected to support by providing homes for people making more on unemployment and stimulus than they were prior, yet haven't paid bills. Give me someone who is self sufficient and reaching for a dream any day.
I built an F-9A (31' tri) launched in 1993. An educated guess at the beginning was that it would take 8 months and $35K to build. It ended up taking 24 months and around $100K (at least $18K was rent for the indoor shop where it was built - SoCal prices). So approx x3 for both. I say this because designers and builders notoriously estimate the low end for $$$ and time. Be mentally and financially prepared for overruns and stay strong. In the end, you will have something to really be proud of when you are "horizoning" other boats. AND, you will know the boat inside and out. BUT, building takes so long because so many decisions have to be made before you even touch the material or the piece of gear. Researching, sourcing, ordering and receiving parts takes time. Wish you guys the very best success in your endeavor.
I've only been more interested in your channel because you decided to build another boat. I enjoyed the refurb of elements and your travels. But I enjoy the building more than anything.
The way you put together the video, spreadsheet, and just following you guys for a while, I am a believer you guys can absolutely pull this off. Looking forward to the start date.
Thanks. I was actually embarrassed that the spreadsheet was so basic. But I wanted it to translate simply to our website, so needed to just stick to these base columns. I ain't pretty, but it gets the information out :) -Matt
I’ve been watching you guys build your kit catamaran and the thought occurred to me what a good idea it would be to build a scale model of you boat in plastic extrusion similar to the Revel model kits. I would have loved to do what you are doing, what an adventure, but as an 82 year old I’ve missed the opportunity,but in my younger days I’ve owned four sailboats, divotced twice and raised three kids, so al I can do now is to build scale models, my latest attempt is to build a plastic scale model of the Titanic which has over 400 plastic extruded components. This could present a good business opportunity for you both to fund your lifestyle
Good luck to you. This is an exciting project. I've been following you for quite some time and I have no doubt that you can complete this project as long as you can manage outside factors. I've been involved in estimating large project professionally for decades, Adding contingency as a separate line item is really important as you set your budget. That way you can manage uncertainty; whether it is higher costs for identified items (economy, shortages), unidentified items within the current scope (additional hardware not anticipated); or items outside of the budgetted scope (adding a generator, watermaker, etc); either through scope creep or misfortune (errors, damage, etc.). The contingency should be higher at the beginning of the project; but then can be reduced as the project gets closer to completion as you have more committed costs. I've seen that regional costs make a big difference in labor projects which doesn't necessarily apply directly to you (since you are doing the labor youself); but indirectly since the cost of living, facilities, utilities, etc, varies tremendously depending on where you work. I've been noticing while we are starting the slow process of opening up from our stay at home orders; that things are just not going to be as efficient as before. What used to be a quick 10 minute trip to the grocery store has become an hour long ordeal. Everything slows down as social distancing, cleaning, limiting facility occupancies, etc. becomes the prime concern. I imagine that we will see significant price increases until the population gains immunity to this virus.
This is no different than someone building thier own landlocked home themselves. A ton of work, but in the end, your sweat equity puts you years ahead. Kudos to you guys and looking forward to the build videos. 😀
@@rogerfranz1256 I understand what you're saying. My comparison was not really the dollar value, but the couple doing the work. I know folks here who singlehandly built thier home. Not for everybody but still the perserverance is something to be admired.
@@@fritzk9118 @Roger franz Having actually built my own house singlehanded I can attest to Fritzk's meaning in his post of the the shear pleasure of standing back at every small advance forward and seeing what one has achieved, the sense of achievement especially when finished cannot, I believe, be understood or experienced, except by those who have done it. As I am also at this moment researching building a boat and have so far come to similar comclusions and costings as Matt and Jessica (although I have no idea of boat building as i didn't about house building when i started) I am aware as Roger points out one is unlikely to make a monetary from this endevour but this is isn't the reason us DIYer's do it :)
Wow! That is a big undertaking. I know you're up to the task. I hope everything works out for you I will be watching as you proceed. Thank you for taking the time for the explanation.
Thanks for your dedication to making great videos and sharing so much. I did sense you both are a bit tired of everyone chiming in, but for the most part, viewers have only the best intentions and wish you well. Here is my take on things. Just food for thought, do with it what you like. Outboard engine install is certainly easier and less $ than inboard diesels. However range may be an issue so you may want to look at fuel consumption on the gas motors vs. diesel based on your records of engine hrs and when you needed to motor-sail. Outboard manufacturers specs on consumption is likely very optimistic and your #'s are actual use. You may find you need much larger fuel tanks and $$$ for the same hrs and/or distance. There are more BTU's in diesel than gas, and diesels make power at lower RPM so inherently use less fuel. Gassers run much faster (2 X ish) for the same power. If you motored for days at a time, the sound of 2 gassers howling might get old real quick. I don't know of a diesel owner who wishes they had gas, but a lot of gassers wish they had diesel, for a lot of reasons. Consider exhaust fumes. I'm a power boater so don't know how wind and relatively slow speeds of a sail boat would affect fumes getting to the cockpit, but gas engine fumes are headache food and more motion sickness for almost everyone. So anytime you have smelled diesel fumes in elements,, multiply that annoyance by at least 2 for gas. You kids are full of energy and also have tremendous options for where your life can take you. Looking back for me (i'm 60), I think the best things came from recognizing and being in a position to take opportunities that were extraordinary, not just pretty good. This applied to my choice of woman to marry, career direction, real estate investments... Everything. Meaning more than just one or two stars needed to be lined up, out of the 5 or 6 needed for things to go reasonably well. Extraordinary was 3 , 4 or even 5 stars lining up and only 1 or 2 things (stars) left to follow common results. You both like to build, and are certainly not afraid of hard work, so labour is free (sort of). One star lined up. Start lovin' the fast food joint nearest the build site. Everything else seems pretty regular and no real stars lining up. Say you already had access to a near perfect space to do the build that was nearly (or totally) free (an uncle has a manufacturing business with a vacant building that's perfect). Great - two stars out of 6. Corona-plaooza hits! Sheesh. Effects on the economy are likely to last for most of a decade maybe even more. Cruising boat market will definitely go soft for a bit, so elements is worth less as you noted - Minus one star. You may need to pay near retail for many supplies and delivery can add up quick. - Minus 1 or at least 1/2 a star. As you said, refitting Elements wasn't cheap and it remains an old hull. But it's a metal hull so less mysterious than the same age fibreglass. Excellent call on that! However, the new build will still be a kit boat despite the newer year. Is that be a wash as far as value goes? The biggest value is the kit appears to be bringing the boat build into your price range. Like the warranty issues on the refit parts you described, things will always come up to throw off the budget. Now throw in just one wild card and the equation can fall apart. Plan for the worst, hope for the best, right? Say one of you breaks an ankle miss-stepping off a stool. My friend did exactly that building his house and added 6 months to the house move-in date and he's still limping 5 yrs later. In my experience there doesn't seem like enough stars lining up in Plan-A anymore to make the build an extraordinary opportunity. Opportunities come in many shapes and sizes. Maybe embrace Corona-plaooza for what it might offer in new options while the pendulum swings the other way. I built and did a pretty wide range of things in my life and had a great ride. There were a number of things we didn't do that we were 98% convinced were great next steps. Like you, planned them out meticulously, and at the last minute stopped it. Looking back, most of those were sheer dumb luck that we stopped and shortly after saw we had dodged a bullet. By far, the most rewarding was fitting a family into our plans and are so glad now that we have 2 amazing kids and shared so much of our lives with them. That's an opportunity you might be glad to have, and sail a 10 yr old 45' corona-cat for $0.25 on the dollar? What ever you do, we'll be watching your amazing adventure as long as you are sharing it with us!
Great to stumble across a YOUNG couple who seem to have worked out how to do it, and have the myriad skills to make it happen . I had to have a professional career, and do up 3 houses and two cats in England before I could buy a new Fontaine Pajot 37 ,which was then home for 22 years and a circumnavigation . Good luck with the blogging. I love your youthful energy !
I am doing the same thing. I am torn between the Schionning Arrow 1360 and the Oram 44 C or the Oram 45 R. They all look great boats to me. My prices had the Schionning as more costly but taking less time to build. The other factor for me was the resale value. I too just want to get my money back after 5-10 years and I have the Schionning ahead there. I think their furniture options gives them a better finish. The Oram philosophy is more upon the spartan/performance end, and the focus is on simplicity and pure sailing practicalities. I am probably going to hire some help so I am costing in some wages and on costs on top of this to give me a better comparison. I am not sure whether you have mentioned the choice between Duflex balsa or foam. I think both designers are right with preferring balsa but the resale value of foam seems better even though I think the concerns about balsa are ill informed. Please keep posting theses videos, it is much appreciated.
100% agree on balsa! From what I've seen, the typical amateur cat build is taking the time to decore and protect all deck/hull penetrations, so the chance of water intrusion is much less than most production boats. But regardless of how it's built, the balsa core stigma from years of cutting corners linger on... especially in the US. Is Schionning quoting ATL panels for the 1360 or infused from Current Marine in South Africa? There is a significant savings to be had by getting the panels from SA (if you're not in Australia). If we go with Schionning, that's the route we'll take. You're right about the furniture difference for the Schionning. With everything laid out and precut with their kit, it will force us to stick more to the plan and get it done. With the Oram, you can go spartan or build it out to your hearts content.... it's up to you. But I imagine with that blank space and no fixed plan, I'd end-up spending a lot of time doing all kinds of extras that eat up time. If we do go with the Oram it won't have the forward cockpit. It will basically be a 44c with reverse bows and flat front bulkhead ( I don't like slopped glass in the sun). -Matt
matt johnson I am in Australia so I assume the panels quoted are from here. The way the panels are made is that the balsa is in separate 1” bits so even if there is a crack on a rock, only a small bit gets affected and it can be easily fixed. What I like about the Oram’s is their simplicity. I like the one big dagger board. There is a you tube clip about a guy who puts one in his boat after a lot of study and he altered his boat and his performance really improved. I also like outboards which are cheaper than diesel and have the benefit of being able to be lifted to reduce drag and make it easier to beach and repair. My worry with them is generating your power and heating which require different systems. The front cockpit shown on the 45R would be good to sit around on at anchor, and I suspect that other seat would prove useful. I reckon if you want to at least get your money back in 10 years then you would really have to spend a lot of time making sure you finished the Oram well because I think that is what people will look at. So the spartan may not cut it. I think the Orams will be faster, just because they are lighter, but they are both very fast boats. The Schionning building system seems to me quicker and more simple. I did also look at the Spirited designs kit for the 480, which I think has the best building system of the lot. It is a bigger boat again. It would cost more but I suspect at that size it would repay that extra investment when you sold it. For me the Schionning is slightly ahead, but I have changed my mind so many times. My reasons are the building system looks easier and quicker, I think it’s resale value will be higher and the furniture options are integrated into the design meaning that it will be much easier to finish well.
@@mattjohnson6716 Just before your video I have been quoted for the Arrow 1360 and arrow 1500 from schioning. The quotes are from SA and I have both balsa and foam. interestingly the balsa is the dearest. I also have quotes from VDL in germany (I'm in spain) for raku and arrow and a quote from spirited.
My impression is that the Oram is much easier to build. Here is why I think that: 1) With the Oram you build it upright on a female form, flip it over when it is still light, tape the bottom seams, then flip it back over. That means very little fiberglassing is done overhead trying to defy gravity. 2) It only has only one seam at the typical sheerline to fair vs the multiple seams on the hull side, cabin top and deck of the Schionning. I think keeping all these seam lines straight, well blended and faired will be hard. 3) It also doesn't have any additional floor structures or as much furniture to build out. Is the interior being precut on the Schionning what make it easier for you? -Matt
matt johnson yes the furniture is one aspect. The Schionning system from what I can make out sort of comes together around its frame. Builders talk about the precision of the pieces, in the barebones project it talks about making things fit. It is a good point about not reaching up all the time. They both quote project build hours and the Schionnings are considerably less. Maybe Bob Oram is more conservative in his estimates, he certainly has examples of quickly built boats. I am a bit scared of getting the bows together and both hulls the same. On the other hand there are many Schionning projects built and the owners seem to support his estimates. I don’t really know, I am just trying to work it out myself.
This is absolutely the longest RUclips video I’ve sat through non stop. Thanks for the depth of detail. I’d be a bit concerned about the weight of this vessel. It’s light, very light. While that might be good for speed but what about the sea motion. I hope you’ll find it comfortable. That’s so important. Keeping a lid on scope creep will be a challenge. Resisting the “Might as wells” would be very hard for me. Hopefully you will have stronger self discipline. Regardless this is a daunting task. If you take it on I wish you the best. I’ll enjoy watching.
I really hope this pans out for the both of you. I followed pretty much the entire build of Elements. I am a former power boater and did almost ALL my own work on it. I will look forward to the start of the build. All the best from Canada.
will be very interesting to follow your hard work. However you missed the davit system for a dingy as this is not part of the structure. also there will be more SS pushpits and pullpits etc. Canvas wilh clears for the cockpit is also a substantial cost. Would strongly advise on installing an electric winch for using especially with the main halyard, remember a cat mail is a lot heavier than a mono main. Also advise to install a separate battery up front for the windlass, saves a lot of expensive heavy gauge cable. Again looking forward to the start of your build. PS as a Norwegian I loved your northern tour.
I added the davit blocks in the catch-all for blocks. Most of the builders I've spoken to use offcuts of the panels and some extra cloth for their davits. We hope to be lucky and have appropriate sizes off cuts for ours too :) I'd love electric, but unless we bought that used, I don't think it's in the budget. The deck plan does call for a 2:1 for the main halyard, and we plan to see how well that works for us before committing the money towards an electric winch. -Matt
I know, everybody has suggestions. I'll keep these to a minimum. Galley - replaced my entire electrical system, went to LiFePO4 too with bigger panels and charge controllers. Worked so well for my RO system, refrigeration, water heater and house uses I went and refitted the galley to an induction stovetop and microwave and tossed the propane system. Amazing upgrade. I still never need my gen unless it's cloudy for 3 days. Interior paints - look at the Ben Moore Advance waterborne alkyds, easy to use and great for wet areas. My deck, cockpit and both interior heads were redone with this (one head is converted to a sauna). Use the satin finish inside. The Yamaha high thrust outboards are an excellent choice. Retrofitted an old Catalina 30 using the 9.9 on a bracket, pushed the fat 11000lb boat at 6kts, used 1/2gph and SOOOO quiet. Just remember to make use of the cooling channel flush, plumb a permanent flush hose and open the valve for 30 seconds after every use.
great summary of the project, since you still have some time have you considered diesel outboards, petrol on a boat that has low usage may have shelf life issues typically it goes off between 3 and 6 months and is definitely at least as big a hazard on board as propane cheers
The safety issues is a bit different with a catamaran and gasoline. You put the tanks on the bridgedeck and vent out of the bottom directly overboard. Unlike a monohull- sail or powerboat- the fumes (the explosive part) can't accumulate to the percentage needed for combustion. It's just like a fuel tank in a car.... if any gas vapor leaks out of the tank, it just goes on the ground. There are only a few diesel outboards available, and they are unfortunately really heavy. -Matt
Good luck to you guys, I hope that all goes well for you to achive your dreams. A few things occurred to me while looking over your plans. I didn't see life raft or survival equipment listed. Also, from my experience of personally rehabbing two homes I am not sure you have enough budgeted for misc expenses such as incidentals, upgrades, spoilage, mistakes, inspections, license fees, etc. Do you have a separate budget for your expected living expenses over the two years if it differs from your living expenses aboard? Do you have a plan B if you get hurt or sick and can't work on the boat so you don't lose major equity on the project? Plan for the protective equipment and procedures you need so you don't have long term health issues from the heavy duty toxins you are going to be around for the next two years? Not trying to throw cold water on your plans, I would like you to succeed in your goals.
A great review of projects and associated costs. I run with a saying "If I buy cheap, I buy twice". Although now just an estimate, I felt the area of batteries and available power should not be compromised. I would build to the 400 watts now. Another $500 in the scope of things is nothing. We own a 44' motorhome, and carry 8 classmate batteries for an all electric coach. Obviously weight is not as big a concern, and our ability to recharge them is much easier, but the step up for 4 in our older coach to 8 makes life much more worry free. From one Michigander to another good luck, wish you were building near us, would love to offer free labor. Travel Safe
How about a line item for the expense of moving your completed boat to the place where you intend to launch it? Also, when completed will it fit on a flatbed truck and be not too big to haul down the highway? When I was a kid my parents built a themselves a houseboat from scratch over 100 miles away from its final destination. They did not think to measure twice (especially how wide it was going down the road) and also forgot to factor in how much it weighed for going over bridges on its final journey. In other words for them it was a hassle similar to moving an actual house. One other caution: working with all the chemicals and solvents and fiberglass will be really hard on your respiratory systems. Please don't ruin your lungs in the process. I do wish you all the best on your building adventure. Thanks for the weekly videos!
Although we have not decided on a build site yet, the plan had always been to have it within 10 miles of a navicable waterway. We'll be searching out property along the coast of the US, between Virginia and Texas.
Absolutely go for outboards! I had twin honda 20s on my 40' cat (Pescot Whitehaven that I built) and they were amazing! Being able to raise them out of the water, no folding props, no worry about anodes, 1/3 cheaper, 1/2 the weight, take 'em out when needed and they could push my boat at 9 knots fully loaded. Fuel economy was around 4-5 litres per hour. The down side is on resale-- people don't like them.For practical purposes, they are perfect.
Thank Philip for the feedback. It just seems so impractical to not focus so much expense and weight on diesel for a boat that you expect to sail well. -Matt
These things aren’t investments. You are buying a wonderful life experience and end up with a free boat at the end. Realism and transparency will add attraction to your film production, you seem to be committed to that. Good luck for the years ahead.
Oh man, that was pretty comprehensive and almost down to the penny. I have to agree, tech changes so fast it’s a total waste of time and money to talk about that now. I will say that I’m gonna be watching every video, call me stupid but I love boat work. Thanks to RUclips I’ve learned so much and have been able to do practically all my jobs, solar and fiberglass were the biggest. Thanks you two, I know it was long but I watched every second. We have lost a ton in the markets too, totally feel that pain, shoot.... so many good tips too! Take care and try not to get bored!
Yes one more thing... as one mention before; the market - how is corona going to impact the market? Locally we see now a surge for boats (Norway) - but how will the big international charter market look like in the future? There is a big chance there will be hard times for years to come and many will go under, so there can be a buyers market soon.
Best of luck to you guys. As far as location, all things considered I'd recommend somewhere on the North Carolina coast, maybe around Washington or New Bern. Up some of the rivers you're basically sitting beside navigable fresh water with enough depth for you. The climate is the most conducive - summers not too too hot, winters not too cold. Great protection from hurricanes. Reasonably cheap property values. Good labor rates. If you find a decent spot, you can then build a house on it for an eventual home base.
NC is still high on the list. But I think we'd need to be able to heat the building for almost 6 months out of the year, and that makes an insulated warehouse the only option.... which is way out of budget (the most important factor for us). -Matt
1-electrical system, is going to be 12v, 24v, 48v,? appliances are cheaper and more common for 12v system.. 3-The cost (build of material, BOM) to build the 42 footer is 4800 USD per linear foot(double hull). Excellent price. 4-What is the estimated cruising speed with the outboard engines only? 5-I would suggest taking into account a ready-drop-in solution (future upgrade) for an e-motor system from Oceanvolt or at least a hybrid wired-ready system for future use. 6-What is your estimated labor cost(normally 10x higher in the States) and certified inspection fees for 2 years? 7-I would add 10% for inventory (material, objects..) shrinkage during the building process.
Well, you've got your numbers, you've got your enthusiasm and dedication, now just have to do it... good luck, I'll be following you and waiting for an address.
Great overview, thank you. I think you need to add about $50,000 in miscellaneous extra cost for nuts bolts washers screws, wire terminals, vhf cable and connectors, plumbing fittings, etc and the 10,000+ extra parts on a cruising cat to install all of the major equipment you listed. Think about every time you go to West Marine and get a small bag of parts for $200 or more. It’s going to add up.
Keep an open mind as to the amount of time you have allotted for the build. That can change in a heart beat. And if you decide to go that route don't get in a hurry and by all means if you get discouraged take a break and walk away for awhile. It'll still be there. I know I'm building a 24 foot self designed Trimaran for use on the ICW and gulf. A self build is labor intensive and time consuming. Good luck to you fellow boat nut!
Thanks Randy! If you've been following our adventures for awhile through RUclips, or even before that on our blog, you may have seen all the time and effort we put in to getting Elements re-built and ready to sail. We spent 2 years in the work yard and another six months at the dock, working 7 days a week. We would take a week off every 4 months or so, but we're aware of what our bodies and minds can handle when it comes to a build. And for a brand new build, we're excited not to deal with the headache of fixing existing issues on a 30 year old boat. So already a mood booster there. 😃 💪
@@MJSailing At almost 72 I often wonder if maybe I should refocus my energy and time doing something far more easier. But from the moment my wife said she loved the idea it was game on. I'm a firm believer your dreams are only limited by your imagination and abilities. I've been following your journey's for awhile but sadly not from the beginning. Looking forward to your future project.
I get really excited about you and your new build. Cost is a killer but don't quite. Hull layup, spars, and rigging financing can be a headache but do it anyway. Love ya both.
As always, I am all in on your plans and am really looking forward to watching this project unfold. I just have to say this one time though, I really think you are making a mistake in prioritizing performance. I mean, this is a liveaboard, your home. Comfort would be my priority. It's like you are going to a catamaran, but, not reaping the biggest benefits...comfort. To me, a performance cat is one thing, and, a liveaboard home is another, not to be combined. In reality, how often is your cruising life is performance a deciding factor? The vast majority of your life, you are at anchor Anyways, you know way better than me what you want, but, I just had to express my reservations this one time. Love you guys and will be there for every episode, even if I cringe every time I look at those narrow hulls....: )
Lots of detail and number which is interesting, certainly be a challenging project. However, didn't see heating in the plan? Are you planning on sailing anywhere cold?
If we did venture to colder areas again, it wouldn't be for 1-2 years after launching the boat. And when you consider the heating system we added to Elements only ran about $300, we figure it is an easy add later on, if and when we need it.
Great video. Really excited to watch this process. Two items I didn't see listed but I would be surprised you didn't have: watermaker and generator/inverter. Any plans for theses?
Having heard what's basically involved, I think it's a great adventure, and you are very brave to take it on. Have you asked or even told Georgie Girl about it yet!
Thank you for the extremely detailed information. Seriously, you guys are awesome. And sharing the spreadsheet too, wow! I will be following your project with enthusiasm.
This is such a terrific video - you have given this topic such excellent thought, such thorough preparation, and present a very well condensed version of your findings. I agree with so much of what you've listed / spoken about, and understand your reasons where we differ. You've created a great resource for others considering this journey, including the spreadsheet. Thank you very much! I'm looking forward to your decision & build. I'm a big fan of Schionnings fwiw but Oram is great too . . . I respect your decision to favour your existing sail loft relationship, but you (and others) could consider making your own sails. Compared to a boat-build it's much easier! Designs can be found including free open-source designs AND software. I prefer the advanced laminates and more of a racing rig but again I get where you're coming from for more of a cruiser. Could you build your own carbon mast & get a better, stronger, lighter spar for less than the aluminium? I support your preference for outboards for this build too, and although i prefer electric, it is true they are hardly used so hard to justify.
You get a "thumbs up" right up front for segmenting the progress bar. 1:27 is a long YT commitment so I can pop in and out. This should be interesting.
Yes. We already have an account with ABYC... we'll, we let it lapse, but will sign-up again when its time. Basically, all it really needs to do is pass survey and the insurance isn't an issue. -Matt
200.000$ + 6000hour and 2-3 years hard work. Just one question about tax; if you build full time - can you get problem with taxes - maybe later if you sell? The tax people can maybe see you as pros with the YT-channel etc? And what about certifications, ref. the value of the boat when you sell, is that an issue? A 45 cat is a BIG project - I have seen this among locals here - and several took 20 years... a reference to a monohull is not too relevant - the cat is so much bigger and more complex. To go full time to do it the right approach then it can be effective working time. From what I see you can get a used Lagoon 380 or similar for close to 100.000$ - so it could be an option. But of c - as you are pros - the YT-channel - it is very interesting to follow this project - so I will follow - and I can even contribute some money if I use you channel a lot. You mention Jessicas parents that has build 4 houses themselves - now theres smart use of time - bec a house designed and build well on a good site will make money - thats an investment - a bout is hardly a good one. I didnt see the hole vid here -about costs; but a friend just bought a used mainsail for his performance cat on the international market for å fraction of the cost of a new - modern 3DL sail, some other gear like winches is maybe also possible to buy used? Mast - see it talk about alu-section - I have carbon rotating wingmast on my tri - its really not complicated - and gives an edge in speed together with good daggers and rudders. Motors - seen many options with outboards - it may be cheap and light at first sight - but for a 45ft cat i would not use it; its complicated to build a good arrangement for them (and takes up space) to be operated good and easy - so the weight saving is not that much - also they use gas - much more than the diesels - so you have to carry more. One diesel and one electric is maybe a good solution - later it will be electric - with saildrive.
Something to consider when deciding on components is the warranty length, where it has to be shipped to for warranty repair(Europe or USA) & if the mfg offer out of warranty repair. Pronautic P series chargers carry a five year warranty. Both Garmin & Raymarine offer out of warranty repair. (better than throwing away & cheaper than buying new.) If not repairable they may offer a reduced rate for upgrading to current models. Some Fusion(Stereo, Amp) models are warrantied for 3 years. Ritchie Compass I believe is five years as well. ...just little things can make life easier down the road.
We made the mistake on the last boat of snatching up deals (electronics, pumps) when available. By the time they were installed, the 1 year warranty had eclipsed.... that's when I found out that a few of the items were DOA out of the box and I had no recourse to get them repaired. Very costly mistake and I'll be paying better attention to the warranty offered this time around! -Matt
On the hoop house... I suggest that You search out an abandoned greenhouse I've seen these very inexpensive, if You remove them from the site. Many of these also include heating and lights. Of course, these are for growing plants.
Good idea. I did a cursory search on Google awhile ago, but nothing but new greenhouses showed. Granted, that was towards the end of winter and the growers may not be doing those types of projects at that time of year. -Matt
Immediately when finished? Around $300k. 7-10 years later when we sell it? Around 250k (adjust for inflation). There are a few Oram 44c that have sold in the past year or two and that's a pretty accurate number for a 10 year old boat -Matt
Hey Matt.... Just wondering, I heard you mention in another video that with all you put into your current boat it’s still what ever year build it is. You mentioned that the resale was not great to cover your build costs. With this build, I think you will be in the same place because selling a home made boat is going to be hard to sell thus bringing your selling price down to move it. The market is a buyers market right now. I think you should look around before making the big jump. I think you did a good cost breakdown but with living expenses and all I think you are under estimating your costs. I’m trying to figure out what your end goal is? Are you trying to have a better resale value at the end? I’m listening to you talk about painting the boat, out boards instead of diesel. I feel if you have a good down payment, interest rates are so low now. Get into a good production boat and do a refit. At the end of your build I think you will have a hard time getting you money back if you tried to sell it. I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer, but the market is all in your favor right now. Wish you both and the cat Good health! Be safe and I hope you guys make the right decision!!!!
@spacebassli - they have stated their end goal several times, and briefly mentioned here again as well. Their end goal is they have sailed the northern hemisphere in the metal hull boat, but are now intending to sail in more tropical locations that no longer needs that boat. So they want to *build* a cat. Period. They love the project of building, and that has just as much if not more to do with the route they are taking than anything else. They stated other reasons, such as only wanting more of a performance boat but not with the performance typical higher cost, and other reasons as well. But those are really secondary. They just simply want to build a cat and enjoy doing that for a price point that they can afford. Before this current situation, they did have enough to buy the kit and other first year build costs, with plans to purchase the remaining second year costs off the sale of their boat. As they stated here, lot of that has changed so unknown how much they can afford of it now. Definitely the way things are today, the total amount is no longer obtainable. Which leads to your suggestion of a down (which they do have) and implying with your 'low interest rates' of financing the rest. Which they will be unable to do, as they have stated they have decent credit, but obtaining a loan without steady income and without an actual 'home' or place of physical residence is extremely difficult to do. This project as they have stated will all be paid in cash (from savings and sale of boat). Besides the point that is not what they were wanting anyway. They have said before that if it comes down to it, they will simply just extend their cruising on their current boat longer until they can afford to start the project.
@@kevinfisher1345 Hey Kevin... I get it! I just think with the current situation around the world, it would be foolish not to look around before committing to such a huge project.
@@rogerfranz1256 Dreaming does not cost money. When It is time to pull the trigger things will be sorted out. Don't dump on some one else's dream. Realism does not exist when it comes to owning a boat except if you are making money from it. Look at the millions of boats there are. Lots of dreams. I understand building a boat. I built one and got more enjoyment from that then then the other six I owned. None of them ever made money.
Interesting that you listed three Australian Designers... Being a Queenslander, I get to see a lot of Schionning and Granger cats but have not seen many Oram cats. In the boat length you're planning, most Australian multihull sailors consider Schionning designs as premium boats, and thus they would probably fetch a higher resale, later in the boat's life. (Approximately 300K USD for a ten-year-old 45 footer)
I agree with the resale value being highest for the Schionning. While a lot of that is due to name recognition, I think some is from the liberties a lot of Oram builders take with his designs. Good or bad, there seems to be more dramatic modifications and customizing to his original plans. Without the consistency of multiple identical copies, it's hard to establish good resale. Matt
Matt...this question is off topic but when you two had Elements on the Hard in Tampa area...a) was it liveaboard and if so ...b) what Marina did you use ?
We were actually closer toward the east coast of Florida, in a place called Indiantown (Indiantown Marina). It was about 20 miles inland of Stuart, and 10 miles west of Lake Okechobee.
@@MJSailing thanks...i was looking at them ... I must have been thinking of the couple from Abandon Comfort(who have mysteriously vanished) but thanks for the comeback...stay safe and great video BTW...
I'm blown away by the detail cost breakdown. Great job. Personally, I hope you get a lot of things free from manufacturers on this build. Since you enjoy the building process, I'm looking forward to this process as well. Outboard engines are intriguing. Diesel is the preferred fuel due to it's safety factor. How are you migrating the risks of significant gasoline storage?
It's the issue of gas fumes accumulating in the hulls that is dangerous. On a catamaran, the tank is out of the hulls and instead mounted over the bridgedeck with vent holes in the bottom of the storage area. Fumes just don't accumulate.... just like in a car, the area below the tank is open. -Matt
Late late late to the show I know and send appropriate apologies. But the arrival of your kit got me to your channel and raises the question. How does the Maxx compare to the boats you were considering at the time this video was made? (and yes I sat through the entire video Its going to be an interesting series and Im already looking forward to seeing the final product.)
You could get a used travel trailer and keep it under the boat tent or next to it and then sell it when you move aboard your new boat. That will save you so much money! We actually did that when we were building our house. It cut down on driving back and forth and we were able to leave our tools out and also watch the property from people that would steal from us. It's tough to live in a small place but if your both on board with it and are already used to living in small places than I don't see a problem with that at all. You two are also a lovely couple that loves one another very much and I really don't see you getting in arguments over the living conditions. As for my wife, we had problems which made my life miserable at times even though we agreed on doing it. Apparently she changed her mind about it early on.
Happy for you guys ...I can’t wait until the build starts...I’ve been with you guys through the 1st boat refurb...I’ll be there for this build....Iam a quiet subscriber.Lol....It’s gonna be a great build ....😊😊😊😊
Biggest problem with outboards is lack of charging capability. You need to look at your charging needs. Some outboard manufacturers have a specific high thrust outboard. The best swings a larger diameter prop more slowly. I had a single diesel outboard on my last cat, but the extra cost over petrol was viable because it did not perform to windward very well, and the diesel had a better thrust.
We've actually nixed the idea of going with outboards for our new boat (after sailing on a Seawind that had them, and not loving the vibrations and limited movement) - so back in January we bought ourselves a set of diesel engines! ruclips.net/video/r1-LhR5hh34/видео.html&ab_channel=MJSailing
Matt - Have you considered using LG SOLAR system - LG Neon 2 Bifacial LG400N2T-A5 - look this up, put 3 or 4 on the rear should give you anywhere from 1200/1600 to as much as 1500/2000 watts of solar
Still years away from that choice, but I found a place that sells used (last gen) Sunpower panels from under $100 each. If we were to buy today, that's the direction we'd go. -Mat
Go to Amazon and type in B01FVRQVK4. That's an example of what we used (not the exact one). With a 12v system they can be direct wired without the included driver. -Matt
Omg I want to thank you for taking the time to do all the research and my husband and I are planning on building a cat as well and we are now interested in every video that you will produce in the future. Question? Which oram design would you reccomend for us if we wanted a king-size berth to we don't need more than 2 berths but we need a king-size bed so what would you suggest? I am unable to see the cockpit layouts on the orams where do you suggest we look to see them+
Wow, that's such a brave project to undertake. I thought the boat chores I was tackling were brave, ha ha (they're not). Anyway I'm subscribed just to see how this unfolds. Best of luck and stay safe guys!! ⛵️👌🏻😁
I'm interested in your choice of a forward cockpit design. Personally I can't understand the rationale as it seems to me the potential negatives (sealing a forward facing door, drainage, build complication, losing lazarette space) massively outweigh the potential benefits (more fixed seating). It seems to me that you're creating a less seaworthy boat by design which I wouldn't want to do in a bluewater cruiser. One, of the many, reasons why I wouldn't entertain a new Leopard is the forward facing cockpit. It seems fine for a east coast US/Mediterranean boat but not for a bluewater boat. Good luck with the build, we're doing something similar starting next year either with Schionning, Grainger or a different more bespoke option and it will be fascinating to follow on your progress! 👍👍
We won't do the forward cockpit... it's an option. We won't mostly since it splits the bridgedeck up internally, but also since I don't see the value in having sail handling in a different area than steering. -Matt
This catamaran build is going to be so awesome to watch. I'm so looking forward to checking out every video! I'd still go with the Schionning G-force 1500 or 1700. I really like what Onboard Lifestyle did with the deck house space and the design of it. I'm not sure if the 1500 would support the size needed to accommodate their design but I would assume that the 1700 would for sure. I would also make both hulls master and make them both identical. I also really like what Onboard Lifestyls did with the rest of there boat in terms of colors and not having any wood at all. Where are you planning to live while your building? They make electric inboard shaft driven motors that are designed for sailing boats and Sailing Uma talks about them and the companies that manufacture them in one of their latest videos. I personally think that electric has come to age and also the batteries for the most part. I believe that going electric is a much better way to go than an inboard diesel but please don't go with an outboard. There really isn't any ideal place on a catamaran to put an outboard. Not between the hulls at amidships or even on the transom. The reason why is the swells that you will encounter and you will definitely get water inside your outboards cowling for sure. So, that's why I wouldn't go with outboards and the weight is heavy compared to electric. On a folding prop with an electric motor, you can reverse the prop under sail so that the prop blades deploy and generate electric if there is no sun to power your solar panels. I really don't think you would ever need to do that but it is available nun the less. The electric motor that Sailing Uma installed is basically zero maintenance and you don't need to hull around fuel or store that fuel in a custom made holding tank and install all the fuel lines. I bet that the re-sail value will be better with electric than outboard and a Schionning is in my opinion a high end catamaran and probably one of the fastest designs out there if not the fastest cruising catamaran design available. Why not just purchase a used catamaran instead of spending two plus years building and the amount of RUclips money you can receive? I would bet that Schionning will work with you on the price rather than pass on that business. I bet if you talk to them that they would either match or give you an even deeper discount if you really want to go with a Schionning. It's the most stylish design in my opinion.
Sounds like you should be building in the UK , there a some good cheap sheds on the west side of the Tamar .. Anyway all the best on what sounds like a great project.
Just before lockdown we went to Multihull Center (Dazcat) on the other side of the Tamar...they had a pretty good set up going there! But we're looking to do the build somewhere warm so we don't need to add heating to our building space. We'll be looking at places on the coast of the US, between Virginia and Texas.
@@Ian_Woodsyes its nice to work in the warm, but spending 300 hrs plus hanging onto a longboard trying to fair the hull in temperatures of 30 degrees C sweat running into your boots, not much fun. Think how much time you could save working at a steady 12 degrees C
How does a household fridge handle the motion of the ocean? Yes for cats and no for monohulls? I know they ask you to wait an hour after you move it to use it, and I think they want you to have it level.
A big concern, but from people that have used them on boats for years, it seems to not impact reliability. Some catamaran manufactures (Bali) come right from the factory with household refrigeration. -Matt
Not sure if 1000watt solar panels will be enough? You should consider at least 2000watts of panels. Seems you may want to also consider an alternate blackup charging system...
If you go to watch the video of our final choice, between the Max Cruise and the Schoinning, we do more of a cost breakdown there of what we expect it to be.
If you go to watch the video of our final choice, between the Max Cruise and the Schoinning, we do more of a cost breakdown there of what we expect it to be.
Go to South Africa or Australia (lot of materials for boat building already there and cheap compared to the US), Thailand, Mexico Philippines are also options
Greetings from India Thanks for this so detailed explanation... You can check wharram designs or Chris White design as well since you are considering a multihull
We'll be watching ebay again like hawks. I always seem to find better stuff there than any of the used boat supply places. We will be on the look out for a slightly used rig if one becomes available- and used wheels is a good idea too. -Matt
As the kit comes from Vietnam, wasn'-it a good advice for persons who want to do the same to live there the time of the building ? Cost of living is cheaper, less transfort fees and it's easier to obtain advices from manufacturer, i suppose.
when they say they include all fillers and such in the kit - Is it enough to get the inside fared out to a good standard as well as fairing the outside?
There is suppose to be enough plus 20%. But Oram warned me that it greatly depends on the quality of your fiberglass work. So work neat from the beginning, and you save yourself time, money, and weight by not having to go nuts with filling uneven surfaces. -Matt
Would much prefer you to build the one in the Duflex foam (Oram), rather than the balsa core (Schoinning). Of course much prefer any Grainger design over the other 2, all his designs sail well. Schoinning will sail well as long as you have no payload, but once you have live aboard items, the waterline goes down and sailing performance affected. There is a huge advantage to living on site when building, for cost advantages, as well as time convenience. A demountable unit? "Donga" in Australia - trailer? in the US.
All three are available with foam flat panels... and it's the direction we're going. I do like the benefits of balsa, but the resale- especially in the US- is so much lower. -Matt
Put a secondary 20-35A ‘charger’. They are wide ranging so will operate at any input voltage/frequency.... gives your redundancy for charging when in 230V zones. Or switch the ‘inverter/charger’ for a dedicated inverter... will half pay for that small charger. The charger doesn’t run appliances... but even that small size is more than enough to fully charge your lithium batteries in
Sorry for delay. A Honda eu2200 gen is one thing I did forget to add to the list. While it's not a requirement, it is something we'll most likely get since we would need to always have power to run the galley. I rebuilt watermaker for resale for awhile, so I already have enough parts on hand to build a new system. -Matt
Since building codes are local, that will be a factor in deciding where do this project (setting up a 60' tent). Unfortunately, until we get closer it doesn't make sense to start investigating that too much. Matt
Charter companies are dying left and right. Used cat prices will plumet. After the hurrican season this fall you can probably get a production boat with a couple dings and scratches for close to what these kits cost. - but you need liquidity for that.
I like outboards but I just watched you working on inboard engine components and shaft alignment. Yamaha makes a stout 2 stroke enduro that’s way more simple than the 4 stroke.
I really wanted to do outboards on this boat.... The first production version coming from Vietnam had them, but after taking a Seawind out with outboards, I didn't like the sound, vibration and the drag from the outboard pod.
Hi Matt and Jess, I’m excited to watch this project evolve, and while I know it will be fabulous I’m still curious as to why you want to use up all the energy of a new build as opposed to finding something existing and making it your own.I watched the elements build closely and while you guys are very good at what you do, I just hope that the New World order ( Post corona) will allow this builder to move forward. By the way, which one of you is the trust fund baby? :-) Cheers from a huge fan
As a 21-year-old dreaming, this breakdown helps a lot. Going to follow this until completion and once its my time ill use all this information. Thank you for this it truly helps and does wonders. Keep up the great work
Guys. I just wanted to say thank you. Amidst this health and economic crisis we're in, I've spent most of my time stressed about not losing my business. I absolutely needed this distraction and reminder that goals and dreams are still achievable. I legit needed this video. Thank you.
Good luck Jerry with the business!
With just about everyone struggling now, we weren't sure if the timing was right to discuss this subject. But with it being such and important part of the process- and the part we worry the most- we felt it needed to be broached early on in the timeline. It's a tacky subject (especially to discuss finances where we are from), but promised transparency from the beginning. Good or bad.
Again, for everyone sake, I hope this recent rally translates into the economy coming back stronger than ever.
Matt
@@rogerfranz1256 Geez, what a joy you must be to have around.
@@rogerfranz1256 So, you'll be along for the next two years on the comments board while MJ takes on this project?
@@rogerfranz1256 sometimes all you need is a goal. A person who isn't deterred can be an inspiration to people even if all people don't agree with them. It's a relief. They aren't a burden on the system or on others. They're chasing a dream and paying as they go. Good for them. Keep going and don't stop. My business is failing because all of a sudden I can't evict, can't collect, and am expected to support by providing homes for people making more on unemployment and stimulus than they were prior, yet haven't paid bills. Give me someone who is self sufficient and reaching for a dream any day.
I built an F-9A (31' tri) launched in 1993. An educated guess at the beginning was that it would take 8 months and $35K to build. It ended up taking 24 months and around $100K (at least $18K was rent for the indoor shop where it was built - SoCal prices). So approx x3 for both.
I say this because designers and builders notoriously estimate the low end for $$$ and time. Be mentally and financially prepared for overruns and stay strong. In the end, you will have something to really be proud of when you are "horizoning" other boats. AND, you will know the boat inside and out. BUT, building takes so long because so many decisions have to be made before you even touch the material or the piece of gear. Researching, sourcing, ordering and receiving parts takes time.
Wish you guys the very best success in your endeavor.
I've only been more interested in your channel because you decided to build another boat. I enjoyed the refurb of elements and your travels. But I enjoy the building more than anything.
Hats off guys ... I can't go to the supermarket without going over budget. I'm very excited to see ye get started ! Best of luck !!
The way you put together the video, spreadsheet, and just following you guys for a while, I am a believer you guys can absolutely pull this off. Looking forward to the start date.
Thanks. I was actually embarrassed that the spreadsheet was so basic. But I wanted it to translate simply to our website, so needed to just stick to these base columns. I ain't pretty, but it gets the information out :)
-Matt
I’ve been watching you guys build your kit catamaran and the thought occurred to me what a good idea it would be to build a scale model of you boat in plastic extrusion similar to the Revel model kits. I would have loved to do what you are doing, what an adventure, but as an 82 year old I’ve missed the opportunity,but in my younger days I’ve owned four sailboats, divotced twice and raised three kids, so al I can do now is to build scale models, my latest attempt is to build a plastic scale model of the Titanic which has over 400 plastic extruded components. This could present a good business opportunity for you both to fund your lifestyle
Good luck to you. This is an exciting project. I've been following you for quite some time and I have no doubt that you can complete this project as long as you can manage outside factors.
I've been involved in estimating large project professionally for decades, Adding contingency as a separate line item is really important as you set your budget. That way you can manage uncertainty; whether it is higher costs for identified items (economy, shortages), unidentified items within the current scope (additional hardware not anticipated); or items outside of the budgetted scope (adding a generator, watermaker, etc); either through scope creep or misfortune (errors, damage, etc.). The contingency should be higher at the beginning of the project; but then can be reduced as the project gets closer to completion as you have more committed costs. I've seen that regional costs make a big difference in labor projects which doesn't necessarily apply directly to you (since you are doing the labor youself); but indirectly since the cost of living, facilities, utilities, etc, varies tremendously depending on where you work.
I've been noticing while we are starting the slow process of opening up from our stay at home orders; that things are just not going to be as efficient as before. What used to be a quick 10 minute trip to the grocery store has become an hour long ordeal. Everything slows down as social distancing, cleaning, limiting facility occupancies, etc. becomes the prime concern. I imagine that we will see significant price increases until the population gains immunity to this virus.
This is no different than someone building thier own landlocked home themselves. A ton of work, but in the end, your sweat equity puts you years ahead. Kudos to you guys and looking forward to the build videos. 😀
@@rogerfranz1256 I understand what you're saying. My comparison was not really the dollar value, but the couple doing the work. I know folks here who singlehandly built thier home. Not for everybody but still the perserverance is something to be admired.
@@@fritzk9118 @Roger franz Having actually built my own house singlehanded I can attest to Fritzk's meaning in his post of the the shear pleasure of standing back at every small advance forward and seeing what one has achieved, the sense of achievement especially when finished cannot, I believe, be understood or experienced, except by those who have done it.
As I am also at this moment researching building a boat and have so far come to similar comclusions and costings as Matt and Jessica (although I have no idea of boat building as i didn't about house building when i started) I am aware as Roger points out one is unlikely to make a monetary from this endevour but this is isn't the reason us DIYer's do it :)
Wow! That is a big undertaking. I know you're up to the task. I hope everything works out for you I will be watching as you proceed. Thank you for taking the time for the explanation.
Thanks for your dedication to making great videos and sharing so much. I did sense you both are a bit tired of everyone chiming in, but for the most part, viewers have only the best intentions and wish you well. Here is my take on things. Just food for thought, do with it what you like. Outboard engine install is certainly easier and less $ than inboard diesels. However range may be an issue so you may want to look at fuel consumption on the gas motors vs. diesel based on your records of engine hrs and when you needed to motor-sail. Outboard manufacturers specs on consumption is likely very optimistic and your #'s are actual use. You may find you need much larger fuel tanks and $$$ for the same hrs and/or distance. There are more BTU's in diesel than gas, and diesels make power at lower RPM so inherently use less fuel. Gassers run much faster (2 X ish) for the same power. If you motored for days at a time, the sound of 2 gassers howling might get old real quick. I don't know of a diesel owner who wishes they had gas, but a lot of gassers wish they had diesel, for a lot of reasons. Consider exhaust fumes. I'm a power boater so don't know how wind and relatively slow speeds of a sail boat would affect fumes getting to the cockpit, but gas engine fumes are headache food and more motion sickness for almost everyone. So anytime you have smelled diesel fumes in elements,, multiply that annoyance by at least 2 for gas.
You kids are full of energy and also have tremendous options for where your life can take you. Looking back for me (i'm 60), I think the best things came from recognizing and being in a position to take opportunities that were extraordinary, not just pretty good. This applied to my choice of woman to marry, career direction, real estate investments... Everything. Meaning more than just one or two stars needed to be lined up, out of the 5 or 6 needed for things to go reasonably well. Extraordinary was 3 , 4 or even 5 stars lining up and only 1 or 2 things (stars) left to follow common results.
You both like to build, and are certainly not afraid of hard work, so labour is free (sort of). One star lined up. Start lovin' the fast food joint nearest the build site. Everything else seems pretty regular and no real stars lining up. Say you already had access to a near perfect space to do the build that was nearly (or totally) free (an uncle has a manufacturing business with a vacant building that's perfect). Great - two stars out of 6. Corona-plaooza hits! Sheesh.
Effects on the economy are likely to last for most of a decade maybe even more. Cruising boat market will definitely go soft for a bit, so elements is worth less as you noted - Minus one star. You may need to pay near retail for many supplies and delivery can add up quick. - Minus 1 or at least 1/2 a star. As you said, refitting Elements wasn't cheap and it remains an old hull. But it's a metal hull so less mysterious than the same age fibreglass. Excellent call on that! However, the new build will still be a kit boat despite the newer year. Is that be a wash as far as value goes? The biggest value is the kit appears to be bringing the boat build into your price range. Like the warranty issues on the refit parts you described, things will always come up to throw off the budget. Now throw in just one wild card and the equation can fall apart. Plan for the worst, hope for the best, right? Say one of you breaks an ankle miss-stepping off a stool. My friend did exactly that building his house and added 6 months to the house move-in date and he's still limping 5 yrs later. In my experience there doesn't seem like enough stars lining up in Plan-A anymore to make the build an extraordinary opportunity.
Opportunities come in many shapes and sizes. Maybe embrace Corona-plaooza for what it might offer in new options while the pendulum swings the other way.
I built and did a pretty wide range of things in my life and had a great ride. There were a number of things we didn't do that we were 98% convinced were great next steps. Like you, planned them out meticulously, and at the last minute stopped it. Looking back, most of those were sheer dumb luck that we stopped and shortly after saw we had dodged a bullet. By far, the most rewarding was fitting a family into our plans and are so glad now that we have 2 amazing kids and shared so much of our lives with them. That's an opportunity you might be glad to have, and sail a 10 yr old 45' corona-cat for $0.25 on the dollar?
What ever you do, we'll be watching your amazing adventure as long as you are sharing it with us!
Great to stumble across a YOUNG couple who seem to have worked out how to do it, and have the myriad skills to make it happen . I had to have a professional career, and do up 3 houses and two cats in England before I could buy a new Fontaine Pajot 37 ,which was then home for 22 years and a circumnavigation . Good luck with the blogging. I love your youthful energy !
I am doing the same thing. I am torn between the Schionning Arrow 1360 and the Oram 44 C or the Oram 45 R. They all look great boats to me. My prices had the Schionning as more costly but taking less time to build. The other factor for me was the resale value. I too just want to get my money back after 5-10 years and I have the Schionning ahead there. I think their furniture options gives them a better finish. The Oram philosophy is more upon the spartan/performance end, and the focus is on simplicity and pure sailing practicalities. I am probably going to hire some help so I am costing in some wages and on costs on top of this to give me a better comparison. I am not sure whether you have mentioned the choice between Duflex balsa or foam. I think both designers are right with preferring balsa but the resale value of foam seems better even though I think the concerns about balsa are ill informed. Please keep posting theses videos, it is much appreciated.
100% agree on balsa! From what I've seen, the typical amateur cat build is taking the time to decore and protect all deck/hull penetrations, so the chance of water intrusion is much less than most production boats. But regardless of how it's built, the balsa core stigma from years of cutting corners linger on... especially in the US.
Is Schionning quoting ATL panels for the 1360 or infused from Current Marine in South Africa? There is a significant savings to be had by getting the panels from SA (if you're not in Australia). If we go with Schionning, that's the route we'll take.
You're right about the furniture difference for the Schionning. With everything laid out and precut with their kit, it will force us to stick more to the plan and get it done. With the Oram, you can go spartan or build it out to your hearts content.... it's up to you. But I imagine with that blank space and no fixed plan, I'd end-up spending a lot of time doing all kinds of extras that eat up time.
If we do go with the Oram it won't have the forward cockpit. It will basically be a 44c with reverse bows and flat front bulkhead ( I don't like slopped glass in the sun). -Matt
matt johnson I am in Australia so I assume the panels quoted are from here. The way the panels are made is that the balsa is in separate 1” bits so even if there is a crack on a rock, only a small bit gets affected and it can be easily fixed. What I like about the Oram’s is their simplicity. I like the one big dagger board. There is a you tube clip about a guy who puts one in his boat after a lot of study and he altered his boat and his performance really improved. I also like outboards which are cheaper than diesel and have the benefit of being able to be lifted to reduce drag and make it easier to beach and repair. My worry with them is generating your power and heating which require different systems. The front cockpit shown on the 45R would be good to sit around on at anchor, and I suspect that other seat would prove useful. I reckon if you want to at least get your money back in 10 years then you would really have to spend a lot of time making sure you finished the Oram well because I think that is what people will look at. So the spartan may not cut it. I think the Orams will be faster, just because they are lighter, but they are both very fast boats. The Schionning building system seems to me quicker and more simple. I did also look at the Spirited designs kit for the 480, which I think has the best building system of the lot. It is a bigger boat again. It would cost more but I suspect at that size it would repay that extra investment when you sold it. For me the Schionning is slightly ahead, but I have changed my mind so many times. My reasons are the building system looks easier and quicker, I think it’s resale value will be higher and the furniture options are integrated into the design meaning that it will be much easier to finish well.
@@mattjohnson6716 Just before your video I have been quoted for the Arrow 1360 and arrow 1500 from schioning. The quotes are from SA and I have both balsa and foam. interestingly the balsa is the dearest. I also have quotes from VDL in germany (I'm in spain) for raku and arrow and a quote from spirited.
My impression is that the Oram is much easier to build. Here is why I think that:
1) With the Oram you build it upright on a female form, flip it over when it is still light, tape the bottom seams, then flip it back over. That means very little fiberglassing is done overhead trying to defy gravity.
2) It only has only one seam at the typical sheerline to fair vs the multiple seams on the hull side, cabin top and deck of the Schionning. I think keeping all these seam lines straight, well blended and faired will be hard.
3) It also doesn't have any additional floor structures or as much furniture to build out.
Is the interior being precut on the Schionning what make it easier for you? -Matt
matt johnson yes the furniture is one aspect. The Schionning system from what I can make out sort of comes together around its frame. Builders talk about the precision of the pieces, in the barebones project it talks about making things fit. It is a good point about not reaching up all the time. They both quote project build hours and the Schionnings are considerably less. Maybe Bob Oram is more conservative in his estimates, he certainly has examples of quickly built boats. I am a bit scared of getting the bows together and both hulls the same. On the other hand there are many Schionning projects built and the owners seem to support his estimates. I don’t really know, I am just trying to work it out myself.
This is absolutely the longest RUclips video I’ve sat through non stop. Thanks for the depth of detail. I’d be a bit concerned about the weight of this vessel. It’s light, very light. While that might be good for speed but what about the sea motion. I hope you’ll find it comfortable. That’s so important.
Keeping a lid on scope creep will be a challenge. Resisting the “Might as wells” would be very hard for me. Hopefully you will have stronger self discipline.
Regardless this is a daunting task. If you take it on I wish you the best. I’ll enjoy watching.
I really hope this pans out for the both of you. I followed pretty much the entire build of Elements. I am a former power boater and did almost ALL my own work on it. I will look forward to the start of the build. All the best from Canada.
will be very interesting to follow your hard work. However you missed the davit system for a dingy as this is not part of the structure. also there will be more SS pushpits and pullpits etc. Canvas wilh clears for the cockpit is also a substantial cost. Would strongly advise on installing an electric winch for using especially with the main halyard, remember a cat mail is a lot heavier than a mono main. Also advise to install a separate battery up front for the windlass, saves a lot of expensive heavy gauge cable.
Again looking forward to the start of your build.
PS as a Norwegian I loved your northern tour.
I added the davit blocks in the catch-all for blocks. Most of the builders I've spoken to use offcuts of the panels and some extra cloth for their davits. We hope to be lucky and have appropriate sizes off cuts for ours too :)
I'd love electric, but unless we bought that used, I don't think it's in the budget. The deck plan does call for a 2:1 for the main halyard, and we plan to see how well that works for us before committing the money towards an electric winch.
-Matt
This is HUGE information package for my project. Going to watch and learn it closely! I thank you! 😀
I know, everybody has suggestions. I'll keep these to a minimum.
Galley - replaced my entire electrical system, went to LiFePO4 too with bigger panels and charge controllers. Worked so well for my RO system, refrigeration, water heater and house uses I went and refitted the galley to an induction stovetop and microwave and tossed the propane system. Amazing upgrade. I still never need my gen unless it's cloudy for 3 days.
Interior paints - look at the Ben Moore Advance waterborne alkyds, easy to use and great for wet areas. My deck, cockpit and both interior heads were redone with this (one head is converted to a sauna). Use the satin finish inside.
The Yamaha high thrust outboards are an excellent choice. Retrofitted an old Catalina 30 using the 9.9 on a bracket, pushed the fat 11000lb boat at 6kts, used 1/2gph and SOOOO quiet. Just remember to make use of the cooling channel flush, plumb a permanent flush hose and open the valve for 30 seconds after every use.
great summary of the project, since you still have some time have you considered diesel outboards, petrol on a boat that has low usage may have shelf life issues typically it goes off between 3 and 6 months and is definitely at least as big a hazard on board as propane cheers
The safety issues is a bit different with a catamaran and gasoline. You put the tanks on the bridgedeck and vent out of the bottom directly overboard. Unlike a monohull- sail or powerboat- the fumes (the explosive part) can't accumulate to the percentage needed for combustion. It's just like a fuel tank in a car.... if any gas vapor leaks out of the tank, it just goes on the ground.
There are only a few diesel outboards available, and they are unfortunately really heavy.
-Matt
Good luck to you guys, I hope that all goes well for you to achive your dreams.
A few things occurred to me while looking over your plans.
I didn't see life raft or survival equipment listed. Also, from my experience of personally rehabbing two homes I am not sure you have enough budgeted for misc expenses such as incidentals, upgrades, spoilage, mistakes, inspections, license fees, etc. Do you have a separate budget for your expected living expenses over the two years if it differs from your living expenses aboard? Do you have a plan B if you get hurt or sick and can't work on the boat so you don't lose major equity on the project? Plan for the protective equipment and procedures you need so you don't have long term health issues from the heavy duty toxins you are going to be around for the next two years?
Not trying to throw cold water on your plans, I would like you to succeed in your goals.
A great review of projects and associated costs. I run with a saying "If I buy cheap, I buy twice". Although now just an estimate, I felt the area of batteries and available power should not be compromised. I would build to the 400 watts now. Another $500 in the scope of things is nothing. We own a 44' motorhome, and carry 8 classmate batteries for an all electric coach. Obviously weight is not as big a concern, and our ability to recharge them is much easier, but the step up for 4 in our older coach to 8 makes life much more worry free.
From one Michigander to another good luck, wish you were building near us, would love to offer free labor.
Travel Safe
How about a line item for the expense of moving your completed boat to the place where you intend to launch it? Also, when completed will it fit on a flatbed truck and be not too big to haul down the highway? When I was a kid my parents built a themselves a houseboat from scratch over 100 miles away from its final destination. They did not think to measure twice (especially how wide it was going down the road) and also forgot to factor in how much it weighed for going over bridges on its final journey. In other words for them it was a hassle similar to moving an actual house.
One other caution: working with all the chemicals and solvents and fiberglass will be really hard on your respiratory systems. Please don't ruin your lungs in the process. I do wish you all the best on your building adventure. Thanks for the weekly videos!
Although we have not decided on a build site yet, the plan had always been to have it within 10 miles of a navicable waterway. We'll be searching out property along the coast of the US, between Virginia and Texas.
Absolutely go for outboards! I had twin honda 20s on my 40' cat (Pescot Whitehaven that I built) and they were amazing! Being able to raise them out of the water, no folding props, no worry about anodes, 1/3 cheaper, 1/2 the weight, take 'em out when needed and they could push my boat at 9 knots fully loaded. Fuel economy was around 4-5 litres per hour. The down side is on resale-- people don't like them.For practical purposes, they are perfect.
Thank Philip for the feedback. It just seems so impractical to not focus so much expense and weight on diesel for a boat that you expect to sail well. -Matt
These things aren’t investments. You are buying a wonderful life experience and end up with a free boat at the end. Realism and transparency will add attraction to your film production, you seem to be committed to that. Good luck for the years ahead.
Oh man, that was pretty comprehensive and almost down to the penny. I have to agree, tech changes so fast it’s a total waste of time and money to talk about that now. I will say that I’m gonna be watching every video, call me stupid but I love boat work. Thanks to RUclips I’ve learned so much and have been able to do practically all my jobs, solar and fiberglass were the biggest. Thanks you two, I know it was long but I watched every second. We have lost a ton in the markets too, totally feel that pain, shoot.... so many good tips too! Take care and try not to get bored!
Thanks guys. We'll see if we can start yet this year... crazy world! -Matt
Yes one more thing... as one mention before; the market - how is corona going to impact the market? Locally we see now a surge for boats (Norway) - but how will the big international charter market look like in the future? There is a big chance there will be hard times for years to come and many will go under, so there can be a buyers market soon.
Best of luck to you guys. As far as location, all things considered I'd recommend somewhere on the North Carolina coast, maybe around Washington or New Bern. Up some of the rivers you're basically sitting beside navigable fresh water with enough depth for you. The climate is the most conducive - summers not too too hot, winters not too cold. Great protection from hurricanes. Reasonably cheap property values. Good labor rates. If you find a decent spot, you can then build a house on it for an eventual home base.
NC is still high on the list. But I think we'd need to be able to heat the building for almost 6 months out of the year, and that makes an insulated warehouse the only option.... which is way out of budget (the most important factor for us). -Matt
1-electrical system, is going to be 12v, 24v, 48v,? appliances are cheaper and more common for 12v system..
3-The cost (build of material, BOM) to build the 42 footer is 4800 USD per linear foot(double hull). Excellent price.
4-What is the estimated cruising speed with the outboard engines only?
5-I would suggest taking into account a ready-drop-in solution (future upgrade) for an e-motor system from Oceanvolt or at least a hybrid wired-ready system for future use.
6-What is your estimated labor cost(normally 10x higher in the States) and certified inspection fees for 2 years?
7-I would add 10% for inventory (material, objects..) shrinkage during the building process.
Well, you've got your numbers, you've got your enthusiasm and dedication, now just have to do it... good luck, I'll be following you and waiting for an address.
Great overview, thank you. I think you need to add about $50,000 in miscellaneous extra cost for nuts bolts washers screws, wire terminals, vhf cable and connectors, plumbing fittings, etc and the 10,000+ extra parts on a cruising cat to install all of the major equipment you listed. Think about every time you go to West Marine and get a small bag of parts for $200 or more. It’s going to add up.
Keep an open mind as to the amount of time you have allotted for the build. That can change in a heart beat. And if you decide to go that route don't get in a hurry and by all means if you get discouraged take a break and walk away for awhile. It'll still be there. I know I'm building a 24 foot self designed Trimaran for use on the ICW and gulf. A self build is labor intensive and time consuming. Good luck to you fellow boat nut!
Thanks Randy! If you've been following our adventures for awhile through RUclips, or even before that on our blog, you may have seen all the time and effort we put in to getting Elements re-built and ready to sail. We spent 2 years in the work yard and another six months at the dock, working 7 days a week. We would take a week off every 4 months or so, but we're aware of what our bodies and minds can handle when it comes to a build. And for a brand new build, we're excited not to deal with the headache of fixing existing issues on a 30 year old boat. So already a mood booster there. 😃 💪
@@MJSailing At almost 72 I often wonder if maybe I should refocus my energy and time doing something far more easier. But from the moment my wife said she loved the idea it was game on. I'm a firm believer your dreams are only limited by your imagination and abilities. I've been following your journey's for awhile but sadly not from the beginning. Looking forward to your future project.
I get really excited about you and your new build. Cost is a killer but don't quite. Hull layup, spars, and rigging financing can be a headache but do it anyway. Love ya both.
As always, I am all in on your plans and am really looking forward to watching this project unfold. I just have to say this one time though, I really think you are making a mistake in prioritizing performance. I mean, this is a liveaboard, your home. Comfort would be my priority. It's like you are going to a catamaran, but, not reaping the biggest benefits...comfort. To me, a performance cat is one thing, and, a liveaboard home is another, not to be combined. In reality, how often is your cruising life is performance a deciding factor? The vast majority of your life, you are at anchor Anyways, you know way better than me what you want, but, I just had to express my reservations this one time. Love you guys and will be there for every episode, even if I cringe every time I look at those narrow hulls....: )
Totally agree with your remarks.. Yet some would argue you need speed to escape bad weather. I'll stick to comfort.
I agree, comfort is primary. Don’t just focus on the cost.
I’m looking forward to the build and will watch every episode. You guys do great work.
Totally love and can relate to the extreme research. That was a ton of talking, your arms must be tired ;). Looking forward to your journey.
A lot of homework you have done already, and very informative for any considering such a thing.
Nice weather and Sutton Harbour good marina...hope your enjoying Plymouth... plenty of bass under your boat... enjoy...
I have briefly been on board an Oram 44C which is the forerunner to the 45R. It is a very good design, nice choice.
Lots of detail and number which is interesting, certainly be a challenging project. However, didn't see heating in the plan? Are you planning on sailing anywhere cold?
If we did venture to colder areas again, it wouldn't be for 1-2 years after launching the boat. And when you consider the heating system we added to Elements only ran about $300, we figure it is an easy add later on, if and when we need it.
Great video. Really excited to watch this process.
Two items I didn't see listed but I would be surprised you didn't have: watermaker and generator/inverter. Any plans for theses?
Guys just wanted to let you know that your pretty close on budget i did same costings a little bit ago and it came to $350K AUS DOLLAR.
Having heard what's basically involved, I think it's a great adventure, and you are very brave to take it on. Have you asked or even told Georgie Girl about it yet!
Thank you for the extremely detailed information. Seriously, you guys are awesome. And sharing the spreadsheet too, wow! I will be following your project with enthusiasm.
This is such a terrific video - you have given this topic such excellent thought, such thorough preparation, and present a very well condensed version of your findings. I agree with so much of what you've listed / spoken about, and understand your reasons where we differ. You've created a great resource for others considering this journey, including the spreadsheet. Thank you very much! I'm looking forward to your decision & build. I'm a big fan of Schionnings fwiw but Oram is great too . . . I respect your decision to favour your existing sail loft relationship, but you (and others) could consider making your own sails. Compared to a boat-build it's much easier! Designs can be found including free open-source designs AND software. I prefer the advanced laminates and more of a racing rig but again I get where you're coming from for more of a cruiser. Could you build your own carbon mast & get a better, stronger, lighter spar for less than the aluminium? I support your preference for outboards for this build too, and although i prefer electric, it is true they are hardly used so hard to justify.
You get a "thumbs up" right up front for segmenting the progress bar. 1:27 is a long YT commitment so I can pop in and out. This should be interesting.
I am sure I will never take on a task this massive. Big respect to you guys. I will follow along while you build it! Best of luck!
Will you be able to insure a kit build? Will you build to standards, required by insurance companies , like ABYC.?
Yes. We already have an account with ABYC... we'll, we let it lapse, but will sign-up again when its time. Basically, all it really needs to do is pass survey and the insurance isn't an issue. -Matt
200.000$ + 6000hour and 2-3 years hard work. Just one question about tax; if you build full time - can you get problem with taxes - maybe later if you sell? The tax people can maybe see you as pros with the YT-channel etc? And what about certifications, ref. the value of the boat when you sell, is that an issue? A 45 cat is a BIG project - I have seen this among locals here - and several took 20 years... a reference to a monohull is not too relevant - the cat is so much bigger and more complex. To go full time to do it the right approach then it can be effective working time. From what I see you can get a used Lagoon 380 or similar for close to 100.000$ - so it could be an option. But of c - as you are pros - the YT-channel - it is very interesting to follow this project - so I will follow - and I can even contribute some money if I use you channel a lot. You mention Jessicas parents that has build 4 houses themselves - now theres smart use of time - bec a house designed and build well on a good site will make money - thats an investment - a bout is hardly a good one. I didnt see the hole vid here -about costs; but a friend just bought a used mainsail for his performance cat on the international market for å fraction of the cost of a new - modern 3DL sail, some other gear like winches is maybe also possible to buy used? Mast - see it talk about alu-section - I have carbon rotating wingmast on my tri - its really not complicated - and gives an edge in speed together with good daggers and rudders. Motors - seen many options with outboards - it may be cheap and light at first sight - but for a 45ft cat i would not use it; its complicated to build a good arrangement for them (and takes up space) to be operated good and easy - so the weight saving is not that much - also they use gas - much more than the diesels - so you have to carry more. One diesel and one electric is maybe a good solution - later it will be electric - with saildrive.
23:17 the plans are not in the kit?
Something to consider when deciding on components is the warranty length, where it has to be shipped to for warranty repair(Europe or USA) & if the mfg offer out of warranty repair. Pronautic P series chargers carry a five year warranty. Both Garmin & Raymarine offer out of warranty repair. (better than throwing away & cheaper than buying new.) If not repairable they may offer a reduced rate for upgrading to current models. Some Fusion(Stereo, Amp) models are warrantied for 3 years. Ritchie Compass I believe is five years as well. ...just little things can make life easier down the road.
We made the mistake on the last boat of snatching up deals (electronics, pumps) when available. By the time they were installed, the 1 year warranty had eclipsed.... that's when I found out that a few of the items were DOA out of the box and I had no recourse to get them repaired. Very costly mistake and I'll be paying better attention to the warranty offered this time around!
-Matt
On the hoop house... I suggest that You search out an abandoned greenhouse I've seen these very inexpensive, if You remove them from the site. Many of these also include heating and lights. Of course, these are for growing plants.
Good idea. I did a cursory search on Google awhile ago, but nothing but new greenhouses showed. Granted, that was towards the end of winter and the growers may not be doing those types of projects at that time of year. -Matt
nice please may I have the excel file because the link doesn't work please!!!!
How much do you expect the boat to be worth after it is finished?
Immediately when finished? Around $300k. 7-10 years later when we sell it? Around 250k (adjust for inflation). There are a few Oram 44c that have sold in the past year or two and that's a pretty accurate number for a 10 year old boat -Matt
This was a great and thorough video. Any plans for Genset, Water maker or AC unit? Those will ramp up your comfort factor 1m%
Hey Matt.... Just wondering, I heard you mention in another video that with all you put into your current boat it’s still what ever year build it is. You mentioned that the resale was not great to cover your build costs. With this build, I think you will be in the same place because selling a home made boat is going to be hard to sell thus bringing your selling price down to move it. The market is a buyers market right now. I think you should look around before making the big jump. I think you did a good cost breakdown but with living expenses and all I think you are under estimating your costs. I’m trying to figure out what your end goal is? Are you trying to have a better resale value at the end? I’m listening to you talk about painting the boat, out boards instead of diesel. I feel if you have a good down payment, interest rates are so low now. Get into a good production boat and do a refit. At the end of your build I think you will have a hard time getting you money back if you tried to sell it. I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer, but the market is all in your favor right now. Wish you both and the cat Good health! Be safe and I hope you guys make the right decision!!!!
@spacebassli - they have stated their end goal several times, and briefly mentioned here again as well. Their end goal is they have sailed the northern hemisphere in the metal hull boat, but are now intending to sail in more tropical locations that no longer needs that boat. So they want to *build* a cat. Period.
They love the project of building, and that has just as much if not more to do with the route they are taking than anything else. They stated other reasons, such as only wanting more of a performance boat but not with the performance typical higher cost, and other reasons as well. But those are really secondary. They just simply want to build a cat and enjoy doing that for a price point that they can afford. Before this current situation, they did have enough to buy the kit and other first year build costs, with plans to purchase the remaining second year costs off the sale of their boat. As they stated here, lot of that has changed so unknown how much they can afford of it now. Definitely the way things are today, the total amount is no longer obtainable. Which leads to your suggestion of a down (which they do have) and implying with your 'low interest rates' of financing the rest. Which they will be unable to do, as they have stated they have decent credit, but obtaining a loan without steady income and without an actual 'home' or place of physical residence is extremely difficult to do. This project as they have stated will all be paid in cash (from savings and sale of boat). Besides the point that is not what they were wanting anyway. They have said before that if it comes down to it, they will simply just extend their cruising on their current boat longer until they can afford to start the project.
@@kevinfisher1345 Hey Kevin... I get it! I just think with the current situation around the world, it would be foolish not to look around before committing to such a huge project.
@@rogerfranz1256 Dreaming does not cost money. When It is time to pull the trigger things will be sorted out. Don't dump on some one else's dream. Realism does not exist when it comes to owning a boat except if you are making money from it. Look at the millions of boats there are. Lots of dreams. I understand building a boat. I built one and got more enjoyment from that then then the other six I owned. None of them ever made money.
Watching the refit of Elements was fun, so I look forward to seeing this process unfold! The detail is impressive as always, thanks for sharing guys!
I'm looking forward to following this project!
Keep it simple, light and fast.
Such an interesting and deductive video...super!! Thank you for sharing all this amazing plan and info
Great Planning , thank for educating us about this. Important information. Thank You
I am so excited to watch the two of you tackle this project!
Interesting that you listed three Australian Designers...
Being a Queenslander, I get to see a lot of Schionning and Granger cats but have not seen many Oram cats. In the boat length you're planning, most Australian multihull sailors consider Schionning designs as premium boats, and thus they would probably fetch a higher resale, later in the boat's life. (Approximately 300K USD for a ten-year-old 45 footer)
I agree with the resale value being highest for the Schionning. While a lot of that is due to name recognition, I think some is from the liberties a lot of Oram builders take with his designs. Good or bad, there seems to be more dramatic modifications and customizing to his original plans. Without the consistency of multiple identical copies, it's hard to establish good resale.
Matt
Thank you so much for all of that work and information. Very impressive well done and thought out
Matt...this question is off topic but when you two had Elements on the Hard in Tampa area...a) was it liveaboard and if so ...b) what Marina did you use ?
We were actually closer toward the east coast of Florida, in a place called Indiantown (Indiantown Marina). It was about 20 miles inland of Stuart, and 10 miles west of Lake Okechobee.
@@MJSailing thanks...i was looking at them ... I must have been thinking of the couple from Abandon Comfort(who have mysteriously vanished) but thanks for the comeback...stay safe and great video BTW...
I'm blown away by the detail cost breakdown. Great job. Personally, I hope you get a lot of things free from manufacturers on this build. Since you enjoy the building process, I'm looking forward to this process as well. Outboard engines are intriguing. Diesel is the preferred fuel due to it's safety factor. How are you migrating the risks of significant gasoline storage?
It's the issue of gas fumes accumulating in the hulls that is dangerous. On a catamaran, the tank is out of the hulls and instead mounted over the bridgedeck with vent holes in the bottom of the storage area. Fumes just don't accumulate.... just like in a car, the area below the tank is open. -Matt
Late late late to the show I know and send appropriate apologies. But the arrival of your kit got me to your channel and raises the question. How does the Maxx compare to the boats you were considering at the time this video was made? (and yes I sat through the entire video Its going to be an interesting series and Im already looking forward to seeing the final product.)
Wonderful detailed description folks. Thank you. I clearly see your logic, "BUT", I really wish I had seen inboard engines with shafts . . .
Really enjoyed every second of this!
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain the individual details and breaking down the costs. This gave me a better understanding of it all.
Old, I know, but what interior lights were you talking about?
You could get a used travel trailer and keep it under the boat tent or next to it and then sell it when you move aboard your new boat. That will save you so much money! We actually did that when we were building our house. It cut down on driving back and forth and we were able to leave our tools out and also watch the property from people that would steal from us. It's tough to live in a small place but if your both on board with it and are already used to living in small places than I don't see a problem with that at all. You two are also a lovely couple that loves one another very much and I really don't see you getting in arguments over the living conditions. As for my wife, we had problems which made my life miserable at times even though we agreed on doing it. Apparently she changed her mind about it early on.
Im amazed at how he sat there and talk for an hour and a half
Matt is really in his element explaing this! But it gets painful to watch. like most things he explains.
any details on what rustoleum you used on elements interior? watched entire refit and don't remember seeing... thanks!
Happy for you guys ...I can’t wait until the build starts...I’ve been with you guys through the 1st boat refurb...I’ll be there for this build....Iam a quiet subscriber.Lol....It’s gonna be a great build ....😊😊😊😊
Biggest problem with outboards is lack of charging capability. You need to look at your charging needs. Some outboard manufacturers have a specific high thrust outboard. The best swings a larger diameter prop more slowly. I had a single diesel outboard on my last cat, but the extra cost over petrol was viable because it did not perform to windward very well, and the diesel had a better thrust.
We've actually nixed the idea of going with outboards for our new boat (after sailing on a Seawind that had them, and not loving the vibrations and limited movement) - so back in January we bought ourselves a set of diesel engines!
ruclips.net/video/r1-LhR5hh34/видео.html&ab_channel=MJSailing
Matt - Have you considered using LG SOLAR system - LG Neon 2 Bifacial LG400N2T-A5 - look this up, put 3 or 4 on the rear should give you anywhere from 1200/1600 to as much as 1500/2000 watts of solar
Still years away from that choice, but I found a place that sells used (last gen) Sunpower panels from under $100 each. If we were to buy today, that's the direction we'd go. -Mat
Matt,
Could you please provide a link or details on the ceiling cabin lights you referenced in this video? Thanks!
Go to Amazon and type in B01FVRQVK4. That's an example of what we used (not the exact one). With a 12v system they can be direct wired without the included driver. -Matt
Omg I want to thank you for taking the time to do all the research and my husband and I are planning on building a cat as well and we are now interested in every video that you will produce in the future. Question? Which oram design would you reccomend for us if we wanted a king-size berth to we don't need more than 2 berths but we need a king-size bed so what would you suggest? I am unable to see the cockpit layouts on the orams where do you suggest we look to see them+
Wow, that's such a brave project to undertake. I thought the boat chores I was tackling were brave, ha ha (they're not). Anyway I'm subscribed just to see how this unfolds.
Best of luck and stay safe guys!! ⛵️👌🏻😁
I'm interested in your choice of a forward cockpit design. Personally I can't understand the rationale as it seems to me the potential negatives (sealing a forward facing door, drainage, build complication, losing lazarette space) massively outweigh the potential benefits (more fixed seating).
It seems to me that you're creating a less seaworthy boat by design which I wouldn't want to do in a bluewater cruiser. One, of the many, reasons why I wouldn't entertain a new Leopard is the forward facing cockpit. It seems fine for a east coast US/Mediterranean boat but not for a bluewater boat.
Good luck with the build, we're doing something similar starting next year either with Schionning, Grainger or a different more bespoke option and it will be fascinating to follow on your progress! 👍👍
We won't do the forward cockpit... it's an option. We won't mostly since it splits the bridgedeck up internally, but also since I don't see the value in having sail handling in a different area than steering.
-Matt
This catamaran build is going to be so awesome to watch. I'm so looking forward to checking out every video! I'd still go with the Schionning G-force 1500 or 1700. I really like what Onboard Lifestyle did with the deck house space and the design of it. I'm not sure if the 1500 would support the size needed to accommodate their design but I would assume that the 1700 would for sure. I would also make both hulls master and make them both identical. I also really like what Onboard Lifestyls did with the rest of there boat in terms of colors and not having any wood at all. Where are you planning to live while your building? They make electric inboard shaft driven motors that are designed for sailing boats and Sailing Uma talks about them and the companies that manufacture them in one of their latest videos. I personally think that electric has come to age and also the batteries for the most part. I believe that going electric is a much better way to go than an inboard diesel but please don't go with an outboard. There really isn't any ideal place on a catamaran to put an outboard. Not between the hulls at amidships or even on the transom. The reason why is the swells that you will encounter and you will definitely get water inside your outboards cowling for sure. So, that's why I wouldn't go with outboards and the weight is heavy compared to electric. On a folding prop with an electric motor, you can reverse the prop under sail so that the prop blades deploy and generate electric if there is no sun to power your solar panels. I really don't think you would ever need to do that but it is available nun the less. The electric motor that Sailing Uma installed is basically zero maintenance and you don't need to hull around fuel or store that fuel in a custom made holding tank and install all the fuel lines. I bet that the re-sail value will be better with electric than outboard and a Schionning is in my opinion a high end catamaran and probably one of the fastest designs out there if not the fastest cruising catamaran design available. Why not just purchase a used catamaran instead of spending two plus years building and the amount of RUclips money you can receive? I would bet that Schionning will work with you on the price rather than pass on that business. I bet if you talk to them that they would either match or give you an even deeper discount if you really want to go with a Schionning. It's the most stylish design in my opinion.
We like the G-force too, but the cost and time needed for the build is significantly higher with that model. -Matt
thats an amazing amount of info, I'd like a copy of that spreadsheet. I dont have money yet to build, i want to learn ahead of time.
I can’t access the Bob Oram Design website. Do you have another way to contact them? Many thanks.
Sounds like you should be building in the UK , there a some good cheap sheds on the west side of the Tamar .. Anyway all the best on what sounds like a great project.
Just before lockdown we went to Multihull Center (Dazcat) on the other side of the Tamar...they had a pretty good set up going there! But we're looking to do the build somewhere warm so we don't need to add heating to our building space. We'll be looking at places on the coast of the US, between Virginia and Texas.
@@MJSailing yeah UK to cold, that's why I if I decide to do this will do it near my villa here in sunny warm spain :)
@@Ian_Woodsyes its nice to work in the warm, but spending 300 hrs plus hanging onto a longboard trying to fair the hull
in temperatures of 30 degrees C sweat running into your boots, not much fun. Think how much time you could save working at a steady 12 degrees C
How does a household fridge handle the motion of the ocean? Yes for cats and no for monohulls? I know they ask you to wait an hour after you move it to use it, and I think they want you to have it level.
A big concern, but from people that have used them on boats for years, it seems to not impact reliability. Some catamaran manufactures (Bali) come right from the factory with household refrigeration. -Matt
Not sure if 1000watt solar panels will be enough? You should consider at least 2000watts of panels. Seems you may want to also consider an alternate blackup charging system...
Was there an update cost video after this? The boat you are building is from Vietnam so did you do an update cost video???
If you go to watch the video of our final choice, between the Max Cruise and the Schoinning, we do more of a cost breakdown there of what we expect it to be.
If you go to watch the video of our final choice, between the Max Cruise and the Schoinning, we do more of a cost breakdown there of what we expect it to be.
Go to South Africa or Australia (lot of materials for boat building already there and cheap compared to the US), Thailand, Mexico Philippines are also options
Why you change to BobOram but not Schionning? Will you use balsa core or foam?
We didn't. We're still undecided which cat we're going with. This was just a pricing example.
Matt
Greetings from India Thanks for this so detailed explanation... You can check wharram designs or Chris White design as well since you are considering a multihull
Any thoughts of raiding boat scrapyards for some stuff like the steering quadrant or wheel?
We'll be watching ebay again like hawks. I always seem to find better stuff there than any of the used boat supply places. We will be on the look out for a slightly used rig if one becomes available- and used wheels is a good idea too. -Matt
As the kit comes from Vietnam, wasn'-it a good advice for persons who want to do the same to live there the time of the building ? Cost of living is cheaper, less transfort fees and it's easier to obtain advices from manufacturer, i suppose.
Wow so much info! Thanks for sharing!!
when they say they include all fillers and such in the kit - Is it enough to get the inside fared out to a good standard as well as fairing the outside?
There is suppose to be enough plus 20%. But Oram warned me that it greatly depends on the quality of your fiberglass work. So work neat from the beginning, and you save yourself time, money, and weight by not having to go nuts with filling uneven surfaces. -Matt
Great information
Would much prefer you to build the one in the Duflex foam (Oram), rather than the balsa core (Schoinning). Of course much prefer any Grainger design over the other 2, all his designs sail well. Schoinning will sail well as long as you have no payload, but once you have live aboard items, the waterline goes down and sailing performance affected. There is a huge advantage to living on site when building, for cost advantages, as well as time convenience. A demountable unit? "Donga" in Australia - trailer? in the US.
All three are available with foam flat panels... and it's the direction we're going. I do like the benefits of balsa, but the resale- especially in the US- is so much lower. -Matt
Put a secondary 20-35A ‘charger’. They are wide ranging so will operate at any input voltage/frequency.... gives your redundancy for charging when in 230V zones. Or switch the ‘inverter/charger’ for a dedicated inverter... will half pay for that small charger. The charger doesn’t run appliances... but even that small size is more than enough to fully charge your lithium batteries in
How about desalination? Your water tank capacity is a bit low. And even though you’ll be running solar, generator as well?
Sorry for delay. A Honda eu2200 gen is one thing I did forget to add to the list. While it's not a requirement, it is something we'll most likely get since we would need to always have power to run the galley.
I rebuilt watermaker for resale for awhile, so I already have enough parts on hand to build a new system. -Matt
Site prep will be dependent on where you build. Some areas will have fire codes that need to be followed.
Since building codes are local, that will be a factor in deciding where do this project (setting up a 60' tent). Unfortunately, until we get closer it doesn't make sense to start investigating that too much.
Matt
Charter companies are dying left and right. Used cat prices will plumet. After the hurrican season this fall you can probably get a production boat with a couple dings and scratches for close to what these kits cost. - but you need liquidity for that.
I like outboards but I just watched you working on inboard engine components and shaft alignment. Yamaha makes a stout 2 stroke enduro that’s way more simple than the 4 stroke.
I really wanted to do outboards on this boat.... The first production version coming from Vietnam had them, but after taking a Seawind out with outboards, I didn't like the sound, vibration and the drag from the outboard pod.
Move to South Africa, and do your build there . . .
im planning to get out of here by end 2022
cheap to build here but there is no future for us anymore
@@brettdutoit5424 Sad to hear. I have many South African Friends in both the UK and Australia.
Hi Matt and Jess, I’m excited to watch this project evolve, and while I know it will be fabulous I’m still curious as to why you want to use up all the energy of a new build as opposed to finding something existing and making it your own.I watched the elements build closely and while you guys are very good at what you do, I just hope that the New World order ( Post corona) will allow this builder to move forward. By the way, which one of you is the trust fund baby? :-) Cheers from a huge fan