The reason why ANALOG sounds BAD!
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
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Small correction. The distortion was not being caused by the input transformer, but rather by the input tube stage. This first gain stage of the compressor is placed before the input gain knob. From an electrical design perspective, it makes a lot of sense to place gain stages (or impedance buffers) before a passive gain knob...
Is this the same reason why ART PRO VLAII needs VERY low gain input?
Great video for we hybrid recordists, and reveals where our studio has a potentially big problem: the main converter sends stereo to a Burl summing mixer, which then sends stereo to 4 Pultecs (two eqp and two midrange types), then back into the daw. The Pultecs don’t have input meters so you don’t know with real certainty the level they’re receiving! This could be detrimental to the mix and may not bring out the best of those units. Plug in versions aren’t a good option because nothing sounds as good as the hardware Pultecs. Is the solution to insert hardware VU meters before each unit? Or am I over thinking this?
@@NathanxxyyxxI’ve wondered why these units are so difficult to dial in (using for parallel compression). Everything comes out as a blob rather than punch. So feed them lower levels.
Overthinking this. Just use your ears
You’re Not overthinking this.
And use your ears.
To me, audio engineering is both Art & Science.
You’re producing Art and the Artist inside of you should be most concerned with what’s coming out of the speakers for the audience.
How does it Sound? How does it Feel.
The Engineer side of you Should try to get mastery over every signal at every stage. Some studios have every single in and out routed to the Patchbay, and the ability to “patch in” VU or PPM meters, Spectrum Analyzers, Phase Coherence meters, Oscilloscopes, and full Analog Precision systems.
Are any of these things “necessary”?
Necessary for whom?
An Engineer Knowing exactly what each piece in your signal chain is doing only informs and empowers the decision you make and actions you take as an Artist.
My two cents.
You seem so much more chill these days -- congratulations!! And I always seem to add real-world knowledge to my audio skill set, simply by watching your channel. You're getting better and better, video by video, and I love it!
First of all, I like this video, please don’t stop making stuff like this!!
Could you also make a video where you talk more about the gain related artifacts?
THANK YOU!!
Absolutely brilliant looking and sounding unit!Would love to hear more soundexamples with different settings!😍
I’ve found that I learn some incredible tricks and new techniques with my existing gear when something “isn’t quite right” with another piece of gear. In the trouble-shooting process I have those “Oh, so THAT’s how this works” moments.
This is exactly right. The equipment designers are very specific how their gear should be set up. If you don’t pay attention to that you can spend ages muddling around, and the suddenly, oh I should gain stage this device like they suggest.
I’ve listened back to a lot of the records I’ve produced and thought “shit” I wish I’d known that then!
I'm still learning my gear too. I was raising the snare with drum comp and mixbus comp and it wouldn't get louder then I looked at the compressor and it was crushing! Analog takes some time to get a handle of.
I enjoy the creative solutions you have to come up with working in the analogue domain
This is so much more valuable than snake oil vids! Loved it! 🙌🏽
I have an orbit, and it wants +24 but I can only give it +20. so I never get the full saturation possibilities. No interface has everything I want like the ensemble, but the ensemble only does +20dbu, so in order to saturate the unit I have to make sure to use all 16inputs and hit them hot. That is something I learned about my gear recently. It would have been cool if Neve just added some sort of setting to with it to +20. but that is the drag about analog stuff. it isn't as easy to change something like that as it is in software, and prob would have made the unit way more pricey...... or maybe not, I dunno
Interesting topic, thanks for sharing.
Awesome. I used to have a TC pilot but switched for a Big Knob. Realized yesterday the compressor at the front the analog chain has a VU meter that can show output levels… duh. So I can send 0VU to the Pultecs, which if I remember correctly, is +4db which vintage hardware likes to see. Tried it yesterday I think it sounds pretty good!
A video that also happens to interest me.(volume)
I am purchasing more 500 rack modules myself.
The only problem I now have is when I want to use 2 (mono) units if the stereo volume balance is not equally loud.
I solved this in Ableton External audio effect by placing a utility plug-in with panning left/right.
I have yet to find out whether I am doing the right thing 🙂
I personally have every outboard gear connect directly to my interface (Antelope Orion gen3) so I can individually set input and output gain to each gear I use. Sure it causes more ADDA conversions but this works easier for me…
This is the best way to go. I used to do this then installed a Burl summing mixer which changed everything!! So I have to rely on compressor VUs in the chain to manage gain along the line. Point is, I’ve found, that feeding analog gear along the signal path makes a difference. So your strategy is kinda the easiest way.
Actually the unit is capable of +20db going on, which is quite a lot but if that's not enough for you, you may have to work around that for some more headroom, sure.
I just always figured the reference level choices were there to match the next input/output device in the chain.
MTRX studio and dadman allow you to pad like 5 different settings. So you can drive the output on inserts.
Hey! Glad to compare notes. I get the trust your ears approach for sure. The thing is that many analog devices, and digital, have meters. DAWs have meters, Wavelab mastering has a lot of meters, even my Lynx Hilo converter has multiple meters. So…. It’s pretty clear that checking gain is both analytical and subjective (ears). The starting point, I think, is to know how devices are designed in terms of optimal input, and the you can cross that off the list and use your ears for other things in the chain. Does that make sense?
For your comment about hardware review: “Hey! maybe we are out of internet. Or we have a life or something.” I think the people, like me, that view your videos are hobbies.
But I like hearing how analog equipment work.
Keep going! My German Ing.
You need to listen to the bass and the kick, there is where the difference is noticeable. On the first example it had a lot of air, on the third one sounded the worst, compressed and choppy.
This is well known phenomena with transformers and tubes, they usually have poor low level signal handling and are usually designed for higher signal levels, but not too loud so you don't start to saturate the transformers nor clip the tubes... unless that's what you want.
And that's an overall great point, that analog domains and digital domains work in different rules. Thus they're called "domains"...
Analog gear wants to work in certain window and it's a wonderful thing if you can run them at proper levels from your interface. And that's why it's important to know that if my reference level is such and such, what does 0dBFS or -6dBFS actually mean in dBU etc. :)
And with all the "analog modelling" plugins ,this starts to creep into digital domain as well, since the models have been tweaked to work in certain window, as the originals they try to imitate...
Always read the manual, always try to learn it.
You could create a secondary channel and use the more popular topics as leverage to send traffic to the second channel
That way you can both make content that might appeal to you (financially speaking) and content that you might find interesting but are afraid of doing because of RUclips.
Sure, a new channel means more work to do, but it might also mean more flexibility for you to make stuff for us!
While your idea is good on the theoretical level, practically, videos on a new second channel would have even less views than they get on his main channel and if you are a young entrepreneur such as him, you don't have time to throw around. You're always trying to balance doing what you want to do with a good return on your time-investment. Unfortunately, a solution that suits both is not always possible. If he was to start a second channel (which would be work on its own) he could theoretically do nothing on there and only post once he has spare time and is inspired - buuut allegedly algorithms don't like inactivity. Also it would raise expectations with his viewers.
This video is an example how he tries to work around it. He realized that software-topics do better, but wants to do something about hardware. Thus, the title reads "The reason why ANALOG is BAD!" and he explains an aspect that can be tricky about using hardware, before demoing hardware. Thus, he frames a subject in a way that should be appealing to the profile of his audience. Whether this works? I can't tell for sure, but this video has already 2/3 of the views (within 8 hours) that his last hardware video (RSE TC505) got (within 4 weeks).
@@akagerhard Yeah...I know that RUclips algorithms are a piece of crap, which is sad just by itself...
I don't understand why people can't just do what they want to do with their channel without having RUclips screw them over...
But either way, I know that the second channel would have much less traffic just by itself, and I know it would be something that had to be developed from scratch, but my suggestion would be to promote it's second channel within the main one, make some self promotion to redirect people to the second channel if they wanted to, almost like both making content that RUclips decides it's good to promote and use it almost as a segway to get people from point A to point B without the help of this RUclips's useless algorithm...
I know it might be a pain in the ass to create/make/develop, and it might not even be feasible, truth be told I haven't really studied RUclips's algorithm before writing this idea, but if, for some reason, this might be possible...
I mean, it could be a way out of this controlled environment RUclips like call platform...
I guess the 2nd channel would be lots of work and pressure too. But would it be fun to have a some kind of collaboration channel from several tubers? No rules, no pressure of making scheduled content, sharing the workload. A flip side collection for us weirdos.. or like musicians fun/party bands outside their regular "serious" repertoire. One can only dream.
@@bastosluis244 Oh I get it and understand where you're coming from. My brain is just wired in a way that I always question: "Why is that idea not happening/what could go wrong?" Usually, people aren't stupid. Usually professionals have thought about most of the "easy" solutions we come up with. And your suggestion is such an "easy" solution - and it has been done by multiple people! It really depends on your content, life, financial situation and so much more whether it's "feasible" as you called it.
My comment was just an attempt to share why I think your idea is not a reality for him (yet?). I'm not negative, I'm just a critical thinker. What I think of to be constructive is often perceived as pessimistic/negative, when really I'm just trying to be real.
@@akagerhard I was not suggesting you were criticizing my idea just for the sake of it, I understand exactly what you're saying and I do agree with that, the thing is...well yeah, while I have a lot of knowledge regarding many fields, RUclips algorithms and ways to get around it isn't one of them, for sure, so yeah, either I get some feedback and information regarding the algorithms structure, or I will never be able to have a good idea (not that it really matters, to be honest, this is now just a matter of curiosity, nothing else) and be capable of forming a valid alternative.
Either way, and while trying to understand this a little bit more before writing, I imagine RUclips prioritizes what is, in their opinion, more likely to get more engagement, such as how you call your video and it's structure, the type of content itself, from more addictive/shallow to less stimulating/harder to absorb, and if this is the case...well, then there's absolutely nothing he can do, since no option besides getting out of RUclips will actually solve the problem (and create a new one)...
Oh well, now I'm sad 🥹
Side note to Darude.
Did you know that the ADI 2 fsr now has a dedicated software control app?
(RME ADI-2 Remote 2.0)
I didn’t.
You never have to touch the box and menu dive.
Just a heads up.
Disregard if you already knew.
Great video thanks for all you do. I wish you will do a video about Make Believe MixHead
I see your analogy ❤love it
Hi! I have one of this units. Tried to track drums, it sucked, actually i sucked at getting the gain level right. For guitars it was very good. I managed to get a usefull bass drum sound also, but had to engage the pads on my preamps every time. For drum bus it was really good too. As you said, you can not be throwing anything at it and expecting to sound beautiful...its not like that at all. Less is more with this Big apparatus.
Review videos are valuable for the producer community, I get what you mean, it's ridiculous that youtube simply works this way and makes you pay for doing reviews instead of your regular videos, you can always make alternative channels for that, I would suggest to never back down on sharing the good knowledge about things few people have access to, it might also be some extra work but you won't be affecting your own mainstream. Try linking them at the end of your main stream if you can somehow make a thread without youtube being a b!"*h about it. Cheers-
That thumbnail! lol! watching your video always to the end✌️
You're the best!
How do you know for sure what the proper gain staging should be for each piece of gear? Is this something you have to test out on each piece of gear, or is it something consistently/inconsistently listed in the specifications? Are you listening for harmonic distortion or using tools to find the lowest harmonic distortion level?
Right, this is the conundrum. If you know that most analog gear is designed (because of historical designs) to optimally accept +4db, then you need somehow to gain stage into that device.
Fortunately I send my master buss to a JDK compressor that has VU meters, so I can set the output to feed 4db to the Pultecs… unique to our setup, but the point is that it helps ALOT to send 4db to the Pultecs. Using “your ears” has a lot of limitations and doubt. Meters help!
I liked this. But, now I want to see you play with this on other compressors like SPL's Iron.
I have a few passive line level attenuators I keep around just for this. I use Mackie Big Knob Passives and TC Level pilots for input trim all the time. 2 Mackies live on my patchbay and the level pilot just floats around.
This is so interesting. So you’d be managing gain by ear, rather than some kind of meter?
Okay, PLEASE Tell me more!
I have been rebuilding my dream studio in slow motion for years.
I’ve accumulated a Ton of the gear I’ve always wanted, built the room in a room, and have about 10 patchbays and a mile of Mogami waiting for my soldering iron.
My plan is to wire in a bunch of “utility items” into the bay: mults, various transformers, pads, re-amping, balance/unbalancing, etc.
But I also picked up a pair of Heritage Audio Passive Monitor Controllers, like your Mackies & TCs, with the exact same intention.
I believe that the other two are variable resistors, and that the Heritage is a Gigantic rotary switch with precision matched stepped resistors.
What I don’t know, is if either yours or mine will “interfere” with the sound passing through Other than attention.
How “Transparent” do you find your solution?
What else have you discovered that I should be thinking about?
Thanks in advance, I’m really glad you posted what you did.
I too try to post these kind of things knowing full well it will be lost on most in a RUclips comment section.
But someone is always listening….
Thank You.
….one more thought:
These attenuators can obviously bring the level Down before the next stage.
What about boosting levels Up?
I’m toying with the idea of wiring in Transformers with a 6dB boost on the secondary side.
A couple of my interfaces have +18dBFS outs, and on paper, that would give me the +24 than many Inputs can handle.
Any thoughts?
@@robfernandez5234 Yeah. If it sounds like I'm hitting the input to hard coming out of the box I'll just patch through a Potentiometer and knock it back a couple of dB. It isn't rocket science, you are just putting a passive input trim in front of your sensitive gear. Works for old Altec compressors, and especially cheaper ART VLA and the like. if you don't want to use a knob, you can easily wire up a few Pad Cables with a couple of resistors and do the same thing, Pad boxes were super common in the old days for this exact issue with transformer / Tube gear.
@@G_handle Cleanest way is use any preamp that can accept a line level signal and give it a little boost. If you really want to add more transformer stages and amplifier stages for color or whatever you can literally come out of a piece of gear, into a quality DI, and into any mic preamp you like and "re-pre" the signal back in. I do this with Neve style preamps all the time for a little saturation and girth. NOt the most direct path but it's whats fun about analog gear... just plugging it all in to everything.
Information like this saves me money. Total bummer that it hurts your channel. Also.. Wes audio linked the NG bus comp transformer/pad!!!
Yes! They did! Its amazing!
Thank you so much for your support!
This is pretty good to know. Though I always thought manufacturers had some norms about electric levels on the inputs and outputs. Everybody knows what 1 dBu is in Volts (0,775V) so this "should" be no issue. I understand that some companies kinda "play" with these levels to sound maybe superior!? Well, it is a very delicate debate I guess. THX for the video!! I learned something 🙂
Well, I liked it in bypass. compression changed the groove (a bit), didn't sound as relaxed anymore. Compressing is something I do less and less of (well, vocals and other live instruments obviously need it). But especially when compressing a whole mix I became very, very, very picky. I don't like when it changes the feeling I (or someone else) worked so hard for in production.
When it comes to impedance on other channels: I can't listen to everybody. Some people just aren't my cup of tea.
I guess analog is part of your passion in audio. Don’t give up talking about it. You can do sort of ‘ analog playlist’ in your channel and attract some crazy people ( like me) in a 'long term audience’. basis… just a thought. Cheers
I have a lot of high end outboard gear; and would recommend everyone who wants a good analog stereo compressor sound for cheap to look into the Elektron Analog Heat. I wouldn't even bother getting the newest one with effects. The first version is my favorite. It also has a solid EQ.
Analog Heat isn't a compressor?
@@------YeahOK------ it's not a 'compressor' per se. But it's settings add VCA type auto compression to the signal. And it does a pretty damn good job at it. Especially when adjusting the envelope. The AH+efx has a digital compressor. Or if you have any version of the AH, adding an Electro-Harmonix Platform before it will achieve even greater results for us common poor-men lol.
You could always start a hardware side channel?
Love the videos. Can you please show an example where 0.5db of gain makes such a difference like you said in analog gear. From using mostly digital I can't imagine 0.5db making such a difference that it's drastic so would love for you to show us exactly what you mean! Thanks 🙏
What about a second channel for the gear review stuff?
Interesting but gainstaging is allways a Thing in a analog Chain, isnt it? Regardless of referenz Level. Most Equipment Has output gains?
So its important to know about it for the first Unit in the Chain...?
I definitely understand the conundrum. Personally I am far more interested in hardware as I have an adequate amount of plugins to the point I know when a new one drops because every channel makes a video and I just ignore.
Obsessing over inaudible differences.
You need to know what to look for, is audible. And you need to have the best mix possible because that music is going to degenerate down the road in every other system.
so thats why in my opinion a hardwired studio with Dante interfaces would be the best solution to solve such a problem ... like the DAD AX64 with line AD & DA cards: cause you can set the level for the DA conversion in steps of 0,1 dBu for every output channel to drive you hardware gear on that especially channel with the invidually needs of the hardware and get back the line signal from the unit in the DAD AX64 --> and there you´ll be able to set a signal chain with multiple hardware units of outboard gear by using the Dante controller (like you would do with a traditionally patchbay so you can choose everytime to put the "Kultrumm" before or after the "SSL B-Dyn" ...) ... maybe the DAD AX64 is one of the most expensive ways to do it ;-) --> but may one of the most "nicest" ways too i think ... ... or was I getting something really wrong about what you´re talking??!
What about members only reviews?
I will watch your hardware videos 3 times!
I would vote to stop caring about the algorithm and just make the videos you want to the most.
Bypass klinkt het beste, maar daar zit ook vervorming op de sax als die zijn intro doet. Vervorming wordt erger en erger trouwens, brijd zich ook uit op de bas en bassdrum. De impedantie is veel te hoog lijkt het, klopt geen reet van. Het bedrijf wil je ook 220V Hi-end kabels verkopen trouwens dus ik denk dat het hele zwikkie in de kliko thuis hoort. Die transformators hebben er ook niks te zoeken trouwens, konden er noch wel eens verkeert om in zitten met dat gain probleem trouwens.
Nice barber beats
Uncostly is a better term for the affiliate links
Sad to hear that there will be less hardware stuff in the future. I'm just a fan older gear and then also like human side of things you show and speak. Was it about music business or life.. I feel that those quite are universal themes everywhere.
I'm not so keen on digitals, emulation-simulation plug-ins or AI. It's not that I'm against anybody or that some technologies are being more betterer than others (especially in professional industy where one must have an efficient and functional workflow). It's just like.. I've decided to be interested in hardware stuff in this world of infinite possibilities. Being an old non-professional fart, I just feel more connected with machinery and knobs than digit bits. Sometimes even when they're worse than the alternatives 😅
But as you put it, algorithms run how they run and I guess I'm in minority here. You should earn your bread too. All in all, fantastic combination of audio and life related stuff on your channel, keep up the good work!
Of course I'll be still checking the videos that I'm into.
You are so intelligent, Vytse, and in this video, you are way over my head... I don't understand what you're talking about here.... haha
I think for mixing analog isn't really worth it anymore. For mastering, having one chain that is fixed and just works can be a timesaver and also impress clients lol
and when you put any passive unit in chain , it will be even more fun ..ha
conversely in eurorack, analogue modules modules work fine with all kinds of levels (you can make creative use of different responses at different levels; but most often they sound great when driven), but it's the digital modules that are often picky and need attenuation to not make them clip.
Kultrumm 😍🇦🇷
it's a beauty, we absolutely agree here.
high WAF (wife acceptance factor) ☝😁
@@FalkensteinProAudio That’s more than important 😂
Absolutely 😅
Wow that's really interesting, guess I should think about that if I ever get a preamp or compressor or something when i have a million dollars. haha I'm joking but it does seem like useful knowledge.
White Sea Studio - DON'T become more 'chill.' Must be a fellow American - who wants you what, asleep? You've never been so energetic it's annoying.
I would immediately speak to the manufacturer about the input transformer as it relates to 'pickiness' of desired level. I'd love to hear what their thoughts are.
Finally, what do you mean, "way the youtube algorithm" is you hint darkly, not allowing you to share more?
All the best,
this is why I never use analogue hardware again. the analog plug or daw software is absolutely great these days.. you can trick everyone with saturation, diffusion and blurring digital audio signals.. 🌶️🌋🎉
Personally, it seems to me that the main reason for using analog equipment in sound recording nowadays is to add color and saturation to the sound. But this is not necessary everywhere and not always. For example, in rock music, analogue distortion and saturation would be quite appropriate (since rock music was formed during the heyday of analogue recording), but in modern electronic music, where all the sounds are computer and synthetic, analogue saturation is not particularly needed.
Analog true to transients, they will always sound better. Compression sounds and works better in analog, if i want to make a mix only using plugins i have to do so much morge work to get it to the same level of punch, detail and space.
But that was not colour or saturation. That was full on analog BS. If you want to add analog colour and saturation to your mix, you use something that does those by (intentional) design and not by a flaw. Doing it this way as shown in the video would be equivalent to adding clipping to a digital mix simply by pushing the faders up until your DAW have to choose between a suicide or killing the audio, or even just making the mix way too loud so that your listeners' own DAC or even speakers does the clipping.
From sound design perspective, abusing your equipment, even plugins, in unconventional and objectively wrong ways can be good, but from mixing perspective that's the complete opposite.
@@mirkomarkovic3438that’s not true bc digitals are getting better and better 😊
@@BadBoy-cp9lp yes it is true, even if it's getting better
Looks like a nice piece of gear 😢
At some point you could create a second channel for those videos that might not get clicked that much?
Even more reasons to stay in the box. 🤓😊
Witzee the GainChanger.
Dam... I come for the hardware reviews more than anything... lot more drama in plugins
Could you make a new channel just for that and make those channels complete separate if possible?
Fuck the system
strart share the video on alles !!!
Hardware is a tough sell these days. Buy a compressor or pay your rent?
Where’s the fancy nails mate?
Dan!
Ik snapte hier geen reet van. Maar dat geeft niks. Leuk muziekje gehoord ;-)
All you need is cash!
Make a second channel just for reviews.
wytse, that title was highly misleading somehow.
Maybe make these gear reviews on a second channel and then when making these videos refer to them…
You’re now a slave to the algorithm.
Comment for da algorithm
Streak count: 245
I am sorry that you get penalized but yeah, I am way to old and poor to watch videos that deal with gear that it would take me another lifetime to afford, so I tend to skip them.
6:22 This is NOT an "issue ". This is your user error. No analogue outboard gear has +24 dBu input as it's sweet spot. Most devices are set up and calibrated to the professional audio standard of +4 dBu input. It you overload the device by over 800% (20 dBu) what do you expect?!?!? Were you really ignorant of this, or just making a video to cast this companies device in a negative light?
I literally explain this later in the video... You're showing you haven't watched the video, so what do you expect?!?!? Where you really ignorant of this? Or just commenting because you just want to spread hate?
@@Whiteseastudio I'm not spreading hate. There is nothing hateful in my message. Don't gaslight with false accusations. You spent several minutes literally doing the wrong things to this device and blamed the device for having a tube input stage before the input Gain knob. That's facts. Not hate. It was an inappropriate thing you did to the device, period. So your idea of a good video is to misuse the gear and then expect people to watch until the end so you can then disclose that you misused the gear?!? Ludicrous. Unprofessional.
This has got me confused as well. On the SSL website that B DYN says it’s supposed to work at a ref level of +4dbu, so the only reason I can think of that you can’t get any compression with the threshold at -20db, at +13ref and little at +24ref, is the level in the DAW you’re sending it out is really low. Be interesting to know what the mix was peeking at in the DAW and on the RME output in TotalMix
Genuinely interested, not hating, just seems somethings amiss
Yeah, the B-Dyn is just really weird, the levels in my daw are like at -3 dBFS... The extra problem that the B-Dyn has is that there is some rudimentary auto-gain in there, so it boosts its output on lower threshold settings, resulting in clipped inputs
@@Whiteseastudio yeah I had some comps that have auto gain and any peaks just went straight to clipping… Though you could lower the reference level on the RME return in put, but won’t help if you have a unit after it. Odd because I would have thought the threshold at ‘ZERO’ would be set at +4dbu / -18dbfs, so a -3dbfs signal should trigger something. Where’s the signal going..? That is ‘BAD’
Well, I think there is an obvious reasson that your hardware reviews are not so popular: the gear you're talking about is too expensive. Maybe you could consider reviewing stuff in the lower price segement. I guess a lot of or even most of your subscribers aren't Studio-PROs.
First vid I watched from him was about the ART pro vla II
@@nikolasb8313 Yes, I remeber, that one was helpful, at least for my purposes.
:O
learn to play the rock/metal guitar :)
no better way to learn bout gain
when u get good sound out of the metalzone
ur a gainmaster......................... :)