Juan, is it possible that when they departed controlled flight, they slammed both throttles back and grabbed the prop controls as well in the confusion? Or can the props appear to be feathered because of the impact?
My first thought here is the IP setting up a simulated engine out, and the other guy pulling the wrong controls AND kicking the rudder the wrong direction. It wouldn't take long for this to turn to worms. As far as V/SSE and ground track, if there was a few knots of wind in the direction that they were going, that would give them a ground track above V/SSE but an actual airspeed below. Again, not a lot of time to deal with this, especially when it has to be caught in the first quarter of a turn.
@@SoloPilot6 I calculated the winds aloft and IAS based on density altitude and they were right at Vsse (86 KIAS) a couple seconds before they spun. So that part was normal. If props are feathered, does that make spin recovery more difficult? I would tend to think so as you have no idle prop disc slowing down your rotation.
@@igclapp That would depend on which engine went out. While we think of thrust being straight back from the prop, it actually isn't (P-factor). There are a bunch of things that all affect each other in various ways. Having BOTH props feathered eliminates all effects from the engines, good or bad. Let's also remember that the stated air temp for an area may not be what's actually being experienced by the airfoils. Is the plane's skin heated enough to reduce air density, even a little? How about engine exhaust, where is it going and what is it affecting? Heat from the oil coolers? The plane's been in sunlight, how hot is the fuel in the wing tanks, and what's that doing to the air flowing back across the ailerons? For that matter, how accurate is the stated temp? I've seen "certified" thermometers just a few feet apart which didn't agree with each other by several degrees. Anyone who has ever flown a small plane over the Western deserts or ag areas (like Galt) knows the effect of the ground below on the air temp above.
Juan if RUclips demonetizes these videos then they are idiots. You are providing valuable lessons with each vid teaching people how to survive in airplanes. Thank you.
Why would they demonetize them? Is there an actual reason? Maybe Juan is 'too factual' and some people don't like the hard truth staring them in the face? 🤔😏🙄🫣
@@endokrin7897 If I understand it correctly the RUclips minions assume that Juan is trying to profit off of other peoples tragedy. Meanwhile he is describing how these accidents happen (backed up by NTSB reports which collaborate his analysis) and informing us how to avoid falling victim to similar circumstances.
Seems they need to have an actual close type of aircraft that has either a parachute anti-spin shute or an actual acrobatic twin where you actually do these movers at altitude where it can be made safe or at least safer to try and recover. Seems that is one aspect that would be a way to train and prevent this style of accident...
Personally, I think it should only be done in a simulator. The rest of the training is "DO NOT EVER DO THIS"... There are lots of things in flying that you don't need actual training on to know they're a really bad idea. It's like saying "Flying into a box canyon that exceeds your performance is a really bad idea - let's go out and fly into a random canyon and demonstrate this and hope we survive." Just say no.
Juan, you do a great job discussing these accidents and gleaning what we as pilots should look out for while being respectful to those involved. Appreciate you.
My mother was a pharmacist for Raley's for 30 years, and Richard was the examiner who did my initial CFI checkride. This one hits a little close to home. Sobering that something like this can happen to even the most experienced pilots in the nicest of airplanes. Hopefully we can all learn from accidents like these, condolences to the families and friends left behind.
A military test pilot recently crash because he didn't release the lock physically holding the controls in place. He failed to do a checklist. I think if you are an animal, and we all are, you are subject to the whims of the soup in the can.
After looking 👀at Density Altitude, Airspeed and Minimum Control Speed Chart on this report and that the Stall Speed can be Higher than the Minimum Control Speed it shows this Airplane to be Fundamentally Unsafe. Observe; Instructor pulls back left engine and targets MCS (Minimum Control Speed but Engine Out Stalls First with an Instant Spin ensuing; Caught by Surprise there’s no recovery in the Quarter Turn Window and as Juan said “They’re Off to the Rodeo. This Airplane Should be Grounded
I just scored an old stamped American Airlines mechanic’s tool chest and box set on Facebook marketplace. I’m restoring them. There is an old quote pasted inside the toolbox: “Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.”
@@davidmann4533 - not if practiced with caution and in airworthy aircraft. I long ago lost count of friends and acquaintances….somewhere north of 25….who have died in accidents. Every single one was careless, neglectful or exceeded his capacity. I’m alive today only because I took that saying to heart from my earliest flying days (1971) on.
My instructor (in a 172) quoted this to me several times as I moved toward my license. I took it to heart - only one failure, and it ended as well as it could have. Thank you, Lord!
@capybaras I was thinking exactly the same thing - it looks haunting. It looks like it just landed - the wings are in position and the plan is almost intact. It looks like it should’ve been survivable…but it wasn’t.
We flew a B55 Baron for 10 years and I can remember my Dad talking about how the Baron was non recoverable in a flat spin. We had the bird from 1983 to 1993 in between a 2 Bonanza's and 2 C310's. We had VG's installed on the Baron and were doing stalls but Dad said we aren't doing full power or single engine stalls cause we don't need to die today. It was rather chilling but he told me we were flying a twin engine F33 and even though the Baron had a bigger tail it wasn't big enough. I never forgot that. So we did slow flight and also did stalls at lower power. The stalls were very docile. This picture looks to show the right engine feathered witch is a red flag to me. There were a couple guys in a Baron decades ago doing training in a Baron over the Florida Everglades Dad told me about who got into a flat spin and survived because they mushed into the swamp which absorbed they spin. Story was they tried every possible thing to get out of it and nothing came close to working. They tried swaping power on the engines and were able to reverse the spin but could never get the airplane to even hint at nose down. Gear, flaps you name it but no joy. Thanks for sharing!
@Paul Hilliard For sure, absolutely agree. Those training techniques have changed so much since my Dad's early days. So many fatal accidents back then from flight training.
Juan, Great job as always, just wanted to let you know I knew Richard Conte at the Sacramento FSDO and he was probably the best FAA guy I ever met. Really knowledgeable and helpful. The engines on a 1984 58 Baron and all later year models are TCM IO-550C. IO-520CB was used up to 1983 when the Baron 58 underwent significant changes in 1984. New instrument panel, separate dual controls (no more center control with control arms and/or he throw over yoke), gear and flap switches were now in their proper place, small increase in gross weight from 5,400 # to 5,500# and there were several other small changes. Dimensional, it was the same airplane.
So sad! A colleague of mine told me about Richard a few weeks ago, he was about to do a check ride with him in the coming weeks. This makes the accident all the more personal. I learned about Richard, he is the salt of the earth, a very good and capable man. The news is devastating indeed! He will be missed. My gut feeling is that the holes in the Swiss Cheese lined up, Juan. Recent temperatures and density altitude? We will never know. My brother had a Baron for years, I'll have to get in touch.
@@robertborchert932 Robert, I owned and flew a B58TC for about 1,000 hours over 15 years and it was a fabulous airplane with little maintenance other than annuals. The TC is basically an unpressurized P58 and looks identical to a normally aspirated 58 except the engines are a foot farther in front of the wings because of the turbo plumbing and had a gross weight of 6,100#. In other words, the nacelle is a foot longer. I also had VGs and they did lower stall speed by about 3-4 kts. Mine was a 1977 and had TSIO-520LB engines built by LyCon (310 hp at 2,700X38 inches. the WB engine had 325 hp at 2,700X39.5 inches). Handling was Beechcraft perfect and balanced. I trained every other year (the first three years of ownership I trained every year) for about 4-5 hours in a B55 out of RHV basically flying single engine (other engine at zero trust) at 5,000'agl or higher except when doing single engine approaches (ifr). I also lucky to spend a week at Flight Safety. I now own a V35B. This accident is a mystery. Conte was super regarded in the Sacramento area, a pilot's pilot and a prince of a man. I can't understand what happened unless there was a control cable or airframe failure. Juan's description of the what may have happened looks to be correct, the big question is why , especially with Richard Conte (and Kenneth Mueller) at the controls?
@@larryweitzman5163 I think the pilot candidate was the kind that locked up in panic with up elevator and frozed feet on pedals. I was a multi CFI. They can lock in panic and wont release the controls unless you hit them on ribs. seriously.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 You might be correct, the guy in the left seat may have froze up. I knew a CFI, Ron G., who had a student freeze up and wouldn't let go during a stall demonstration. Ron said that's a fire extinguisher's other purpose. Ron grabbed it and hit the student pilot up side the head hard enough to make him release the controls which was pretty hard. Ron never flew with that guy again.
Just started my multi training in a G58 with a very experienced instructor. Thank you for your detailed examination of this accident with what is available. A flat spin has to be the most terrifying kind of spin cause only a tremendous amount of horsepower can get you out of it and it is exceptionally rare.
Juan, I think you are on the money with your analysis. I managed to stall a Twin Comanche (while giving engine out instruction) at altitude and learned a valuable lesson. I never did that again!!! Seems likely that at the high density altitude in this case that’s what might have happened. One thing I learned in my many years of instructing is that training can quickly become counter productive. The training risks often outweigh the safety benefits intended. It seems to occur all too often, and experienced instructors (myself included) can often be too confident in their ability to handle these situations.
Bob , I have a twin Comanche also and on instrument check rides I always warn the instructor that stalls or VMCA demonstrations are banned. We certainly practice engine-out ops on climb or cruise but never near minimum speeds. PARE - power off - ailerons neutral - rudder opposite - elevator full forward
@@camh7788 recovered immediately before it got serious but it could very easily have developed into full spin. Would not like to experiment with a full spin recovery.
@@camh7788 Vmca demo is in my mind a once only thing done in Initial twin training under very controlled circumstances and ideal conditions, and not a recurrent exercise. Recurrent training should focus on maintaining airspeed above Vmca. “You recall what will happen if you don’t maintain Vmca“ kind of thing.
Another superb review of currently know and obvious incident evidence along with an explanation of aircraft specific stall characteristics and general stall and stall recovery procedures. You are one of, if not the best GA incident video producers in RUclips .
That’s a shame. Such a beautiful plane and sounds like two great guys. I saw that plane at McClellan last year. Had no idea who it belonged to but took a picture because it was so beautiful. 😔
Another really sad one Juan. It’s over four and half decades since I did this sort of training, and I never ever underestimated the risk if things were in any way mishandled. As always- thanks for your work on this.
thanks Juan, your accident analysis presentations are always very informative and interesting for us laymen albeit simultaneously sad...thank you for sharing your intelligence and experience...RIP to the pilots and condolences to their families...
This is crazy! I tracked that bird that morning! It flew nearly over my house around 0745 and I usually if in the house will check out one flying by on flightaware. It left Calaveras to Modesto then bounced over to Tracy shortly after. Man oh man. RIP gentlemen
I'm not an instructor, but I remember my old instructors use to let me go as far as I could recovering from emergency situations. Although none of my instructors has to take over... I feel there has got to be an incredible critical time where instructors have to decide when to take over... in microseconds. I think you are spot on in the overconfident assessment.. even if just a little.
Juan, do you remember the name “William Kerschner”? 50 years ago, he was fairly recognized, as one of THE “Go-To guys”, in the civilian flight training world. He wrote several manuals, pertaining to flight training. I have memories, of seeing a video, sometime in the early 1980’s, that I think Mr Kerschner produced, on the topic of “spins”. The subject of “aftermarket V.G.’s” was touched. Those devices, on some docile planes, in a developed spin, seemed to make a previously controllable plane uncontrollable, once established in a spin. Ever since seeing that “material”, I have been somewhat less than enthusiastic about aftermarket V.G.’s.
*_A.E.B.E. = All Else Being Equal_* This is the universal caveat for any technical mod to anything that functions with more than 1 independent variable. It's why _silver bullets_ are so hard to come by.
Juan, Thank you for your excellent aviation reports. (Been with you since early Oroville Dam, and learned so much about aviation, dam structures, off-road motorcycling, and how to be a great Dad & husband).
Asymmetric demonstration and recoveries are probably one of the most dangerous maneuvers you can do in aircraft. All the way up to transport category aircraft. I've lost count of the amount of fatal accidents i've read over my time in aviation because of it - and they continue to happen. One of the greatest reasons we now use simulators instead of doing it for real. It's such a shame there still isn't affordable and realistic simulator options for the smaller end of multi engine planes and the practise of doing checks and training in actual aircraft is prohibited.
I’m surprised one cannot do this with X-Plane Pro. CFI’s are using this sim for a lot of other flight practices, and in VR, the B58 G1000 is similar (smaller engines and no VGs) to the crash model. But the bottom line is your perspective is spot on.
There are full simulators for Baron training. The owners/pilots had the money. Just a bad choice to practice incipient loss of control in the air where that one little error means death. FAA has specific warnings against this type of in-aircraft Baron training.
X Plane or even MS Flight Simulator COULD be real options.. I know some pilots consider them 'games' but the physics they have are very realistic; on a per plane basis. (Each model had its own characteristics.) It's time to get with the times. ATPs fly Level D sims and the time counts as flight time! Just sayin'
I've got a lot of time in the baron both the 260 horse and the 285 horsepower models. I have been an instructor and a DPE in light aircraft for several years. I'm retired now. Decades ago the US Army did a study on this model of Beechcraft because they were experiencing a lot of accidents. The Army used to operate the baron and it was a difficult airplane to control in vmc demonstrations. This sounds like just more of the same.
Thank you for providing some insight into the relationship between Vmc, stall speed, density altitude and how they can aggravate the recovery from an accidental spin. I watched that part twice.
You can see this if you look at an ice skater spinning around. Tucked in tight, fast spin, but when she moves her hands and off foot away from the axis, she slows almost to a stop -- but the weight then keeps the spin going until she turns that into another maneuver or brakes with her feet.
The method I used to train for Vmca was to reduce the amount of rudder available for the student which caused an artificial Vmca which was above the stall speed of the aircraft.
My old boss (and an instructor) did that, as it showed the concept. Unfortunately some examiners and the FAA want the full monty, using full rudder no matter what
Thanks Juan for your detailed analysis of this tragic accident. Like many others have said, I only hope we can derive some life saving education from this terrible accident. Thank you also Juan for using my photos in a way that tells the story such that people better understand what likely happened and how to avoid this outcome.
Excellent video, Juan. You note at 11:32 that Vsse (intentional one engine inoperative speed) is 86 KIAS in the Baron. You also show an excerpt from the Baron POH warning that minimum control training and checkrides should never be conducted below Vsse. Temp at KSAC around the time of the accident was 25 degrees C. That would put the temp at 5000 feet at roughly 15 degrees C. At a pressure altitude of of 5000 feet and 15 degrees C, 86 KCAS translates to 94 KTAS. Based on the 360 turns performed right before the spin, it appears winds at altitude were 10 knots out of the west. As the plane was on a north heading, the direct crosswind would not have affected groundspeed by more than about one knot. ADS-B shows the plane at 94 knots groundspeed and in a climb of 320 fps just before the departure into the spin.
I still remember the vmc demo from my multi training 20 years ago. Holding that configuration and feeling the ailerons stop having roll control was super fascinating to me.
Very informative Juan. I appreciate all the details in your explanation. This is scary because this seems like one of those maneuvers that’s too dangerous to practice for the odd chance that you’d actually find yourself in this situation. Also this is the first time I’ve heard an examiner being fatally injured during a check ride. So sad. My condolences to everyone involved.
One again your insight, thoughtfulness, and compassion has helped us all be better pilots. My prayers and best wishes go out to our lost friends and their families.
Thank you Juan for all your recent reports on these terrible incidents. Aviation is such a tried & tested & trusted form of travel and it has been for soooo many years...yet it's also such a finicky form of travel of a fine line of procedures for it to have become so...and how those procedures and processes are so vital to successful operations of an aircraft are imperative...and to those such as yourself who are pilots...more respect to you and all...as recent times have shown that it can become such a traumatic event when something goes awry!!!! Many many more safe flights to yourself and all those that take on the great beyond in aviation!!!! Cheers from Sydney Aus!!!!
I learn so much from your channel Juan! Thank you for taking the time to post all your videos and the professionalism that goes into your presentations!
Thanks Juan. As a pilot myself I find questioning many training’s that I received or gave in the past and we had similar conditions. Ex. altitudes around (5000’), slow flight, and engine failure identification techniques. We were in that coughing margin. RIP Sad loss.
Excellent video, Juan. I got my multiengine rating in 1990 and haven't flown a twin since the 90's, but I do remember the VMC demo. Of course I studied the literature first, but I wasn't smart enough to realize it was such a high risk maneuver.
It always saddens me to hear of these crashes, I had wanted to be a licensed pilot when I was younger but life just got in the way, love working on aircraft. We lost a pilot here at Minter and he will be missed. 🙏⚘️♥️🇺🇸
Hello sir, random subscriber here. Hope your well! I randomly stumbled upon a crash in Santa Monica California/Airport. 2 fatalities(student and teacher) unfortunately. I thought this accident would be of interest for you to skillfully breakdown. Thanks again for all that you do!
I agree - a constant altitude with decreasing speed would be a Vmc demo. As an instructor, you should be limiting rudder travel with your foot and be ready to yank the power on both engine as soon as LOC starts to happen, along with full rudder and down elevator to dump lift (avoid the stall). It's a risky maneuver, as they go. You DO NOT want to stall a twin - ever.
You don't dump liftbso much as angle of attack. Yes it does decrease lift but if already stalled or partially stalled you actually gain lift by decreasing angle of attack.
I think I experienced something like this in the new Xplane 12 simulator. I was taking off with the beechcraft baron and I theorized that I can turn faster by differentiating throttle inputs as I was climbing out just like we used differential braking during taxi with taildraggers. Before I could realize what was happening, the wing dropped, plane started to spin around dropping rapidly out of the sky slamming into the ground. It was crazy how fast everything happened!
I remember reading at one point in the late 1950s or the 1960s there were more twin engine fatals from training/instruction then from engine out crashes in singles.
The Piper Twin Comanche was used for multi engine instruction during that period and many fatal accidents resulted. It had counter-rotating props as a safety feature but was not really designed for singe engine out training and maneuvering.
@@bernieschiff5919 No, the Twin Comanche came many years later. The Apache started in 1954. I trained in one in about 1966 and fully loaded I suspect it could not hold altitude above maybe 1,500 feet on a hot day. That single engine operation only extended your distance to an emergency landing compared to gliding in a single.
@@bernieschiff5919 Excellent point. Some years ago a very experienced pilot -friend whom I knew was on approach to landing at Hayward (HWD) in an Apache. He lost an engine , the plane went down and he was killed. Truly sad…..
@@bjs2022 As I recall light twins were not required to maintain altitude at gross for certification. Trained in the Apache in 1967 and had an actual engine out just after leveling off to begin the exam. Scanning left I noticed oil streaming over the left engine cowling and the Examiner asked what are you looking at and I simply pointed to the oil pressure gauge which was decreasing rapidly. He leaned quickly forward to view the left engine and said go to the engine out procedure which I did. Since it was the "critical engine" with the only hydraulic pump available for gear extension I got to lower the gear manually; about 30 pump's if I recall. Not being far from the airport but at a relatively low altitude I had to descend slowly to maintain Vmc for landing;Oklahoma in July. Since I discovered the problem on the "critical engine" and was very familiar with emergency procedure's I passed the check ride based on that maneuver only. Total time in type including the flight check was 5.6 hr. Cause of oil leak was a ruptured oil cooler hose; through an oil analysis there was no damage to the engine.
This stall/crash appears to have been at an altitude where a Cirrus type chute could have saved the pilots. These events are tragic and my heart goes out to the families and friends. Sincere thanks Juan.
I flew with Richard 5 years ago, and we had many mutual friends. I was in Galt for work the week before this accident. I even got a few phone calls from coworkers in Galt that day. So sad all the way around.
I remember getting an MEI that the most dangerous part was teaching a student VMCA because if they messed up the recovery it was very important to take over and correctly recover before it was too late. The first and most important thing to do if the plane starts yawing is cut the power on the full power engine. (That should stop the yawing moment) while simultaneously lowering the nose and applying opposite rudder.
I haven’t done any Vmc demos or single engine work in my 310 since 2003. I do it in the simulator every two years. Not worth the risk but to each their own.
These cases becoming quite common. This is truly tragic and very sad. You are far more knowledgeable and experienced than I. Someway somehow a change has to be made. Thank you Juan for keeping informed, your work is invaluable.
This accident certainly gave me pause. I am training for Comm Multi in a 310. Thanks for covering this particular accident. We definitely lost some good pilots.
These are wonderful, sobering and haunting breakdowns, Juan, as always. I learn so much from your analyses. As a former multi CFI, my question is how do you then teach VmC, or slow flight regime in general in light twins? Should we just mandate that all such training be in sims? Do the costs outweigh the benefits?
The onus is on the instructor to block the rudders or to force the student to recover at a specific speed. 1kt per second must be adhered to. Frasca sims do not do a good enough job properly emulating rudder pressures in single engine ops, at least in my experience with the PA-44.
Juan, Thank you for your consistently great coverage of airplane mishaps. It saddens and concerns me as to the sheer number of crashes and lives lost due to airplane crashes, especially the last few months. We as a pilot group, and CFi's, need to do a better job and stay at the top of our game. As a retired 747 Captain and current CFIA/CFII I have seen it all and recently don't like what I see. I require my current students to do more than just be able to fly a plane. Threat assessment, decision making, complete preflight briefing, etc, etc are just as, if not more important, for a successful flight.
One of the reasons the twin Comanche I flew for years had such a bad rap. Back then the instructor would teach at low altitude and with initially low power settings before adding power to the single engine. Disproportionate number of twin Comanches went in because there was such a large training fleet of PA30s. When I did my rides, we were at 4500 ft agl.
I live in Elk Grove, just a few miles north of the accident site, and it has indeed been crazy hot this last week, in the 108° to 116°F range in mid afternoon for several days running. I learned a lot from this video; for example, I didn't know that twin engines can make it more difficult to recover from a spin than a single engine in an aircraft of the same size and weight. It sounds to me as if there is a possibility that, had the flight been in a Cessna Caravan, with it's single engine, the unrecoverable spin might have been averted. First the mid-air collision at Watsonville and now this, 4 people killed in just a couple of weeks in small aircraft here in Nor-Cal. Very sad for the families of these men.
Yep probably a Vmc demo gone wrong. I was an MEI while working my way up and by far ME training was the most dangerous instruction I ever did. You had to put you, your student, and the airplane in bad situations to make the training realistic. I taught in the Piper seminole which only had 160 normally aspirated HP a side....less up at altitude. Not enough to get into big trouble during a botched Vmc demo. But the Baron with those big turbo engines is another story. The twin comanche with it's tip tanks was also notorious for flat spins if mishandled during training. I was taught to pull power and drop the gear in a flat spin. The idea being gear drag would pull the nose down to a positive AOA and the wings are flying again and the rudder effective to allow recovery. Fortunately I never had to put that to the test. RIP to these two souls.
Reading all these comments shows the extreme value your constant analysis provides the rest of us. I am wondering if the DPE checked the METARS at KSAC or KSCK for temps and density altitude before beginning the exercises at 4,700’ Also concur about the “left-seat-lockup.” I have heard multiple similar stories. Two fatalities and one beautiful airplane gone…. Just sad.
Nearly identical accident B58 with VGs near Latrobe PA several years ago. Peter Garrison wrote an article about the danger of VG change of stall speed below Vmc.
Manual page (@12:22) sez: "The following procedure shall be used at a safe altitude of at least 5000 feet above the ground in clear air only." but your flightaware chart shows them below 5000 feet for the entire flight.
Very saddening 😢. My heart goes out to the loved ones they left behind. I truely know the absolute and intense horror sudden loss leaves us with. worse is pervading intensity of every atom around us reminds us of them. mainly in hope it was all incorrect, some kind of admin or name mixup, and they still exist. seeking, painfully, for a tiny scrap of our hope to be realised. and that never stops. Ever.
maybe the one you look for is in heaven very much alive and you know it is true - that is why your heart persists! the spiritual life of eternity is every bit as real as the present - perhaps more so - much more so! maybe so, my friend!
In my flying lessons, which I am still doing, the spin and spiral recovery scared the living daylights out of me the first time we did it. They still do! My lessons are in a Piper Cherokee and a Warrior. The Cherokee for the spins and other like maneuvers. Losing nearly 1000 feet in a spiral so quickly is a huge eye opener at how dangerous it is to get into one, especially when turning final. My deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the two who perished.
Never flown a Cherokee certified for spins. In fact spinning was prohibited. The Cherokee if flown within its limitations is a very inherently stable aircraft and is more inclined to waffle about in a stall with limited wing drop unless commanded do do so with rudder imput.
@@baaa4698 Spins in the 140 are limited, and only in the utility category. So we have to be careful to ensure the weight and balance is in that envelope.
The early-block P-38 had both props turning the same way, resulting in a tendency to roll if you lost an engine, especially at low speeds. When they went to counter-rotating props, the Lockheed pilot went around to the bases saying "The left engine is no longer the critical engine . . .with this new setup, BOTH engines are critical!"
one of my friends crashed while taking the commercial pilot check ride in a piper satatoga with a DPE. the DPE cut power to simulate engine failure. my friend hit trees on short final and crashed onto the end of the runway. both men were thrown clear of the plane and survived the DPE had a broken arm. the plane burst into flames. the DPE was cited in the accident report as contributing to the accident by failure to initiate power before hitting the trees. since then the runway threshod was displaced. KSSI.
It may also have been a power off stall recovery gone bad. The one real Vmc I got into was as a MEI in a Seneca. The commercial student was practicing power off stalls to a full break. On one recovery he added power before getting the nose down and airspeed above blue line. One engine came on line, but the other engine “coughed”. Since we were below Vmca the airplane immediately rolled past 90 degrees. Fortunately I use to teach aerobatics and immediately pushed forward on the yoke, unloading the flight controls, while simultaneously bringing both throttled to idle. We were able to immediately recover. The very startled student asked, “What the %^*# was that?” I responded, “That was a Vmc roll.” It was much more abrupt than the Vmc maneuver we practice,
Wow.. God bless their souls.. Prayers to their families and friends. I went skydiving there on my 40th BD. There's been numerous accidents there throughout the years..
You always refer back to what you have said before. We certainly appreciate it, and we always remember what you've said. Case in point: You can stall at any speed but at only one critical angle of attack. It might be annoying if it wasn't about aviation, where it can be the difference between life and death. We appreciate your attitude and that is, and that is education. They shouldn't de-monitize any of your videos for that reason. Condolences to the pilots and their families.
According to Scott Perdue over at Flywire you may actually need to pull back on the elevator too help recover from a spin. That's because when you're falling flat the elevator blocks air that's rushing up from below from hitting the rudder. Raising the elevator lets some of this air wash over the rudder giving it more authority and once you stop spinning then you push forward on the yoke. You can look up his video on the subject titled "J35 Bonanza Power-On Stall / Spin" and he goes into detail at 10:14 of said video.
My mom's boss fatally spun in his Baron on take off years ago on my B'day shortly after I passed my written. Needless to say, bc of that I'm always interested in light Twin mishaps like this. Thanks!
Your knowledge continues to impress me - I learn at each of your videos. I start to worry about not knowing what I don't know. For instance this video makes me think about flying gliders with water ballast: Add mass far away from center of gravity while increasing stall speed... hmmm...
Juan - at my flight school we had a PA-44 spin. Instructor and student started at 6500 or so. For some reason during a stall recovery the airplane entered a spin with an aggressive wing drop. About 2500ft AGL they were 90° nose down according the data cards. At the last second the instructor added asymmetric thrust opposite the spin and it recovered at roughly ~800ft AGL. FAA and NTSB got involved to figure out what happened. Obviously conflicting reports from the student and instructor but either way a terrifying picture was painted. Goes to show that multiengine twin maneuvering - not just VMC demos - is incredibly dangerous to pilots.
I think the aircraft impacted 20-30 m prior to it's resting place slightly right wing down. It has had just enough forward airspeed for the aircraft to then veer sharp right as the RH prop had dug into the terrain which has caused the fuse to break just behind the cabin. The disturbed vegetation behind the left wing is as the wing has arced around as it rotated.
Do you think an aggressive spin recovery technique like the Single Spin Recovery in a T-37 might have broken that spin? Rudder--abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn needle and hold. Stick--abruptly full forward one turn after applying rudder. Etc. Probably not. The 37 didn't have those big engines out there among other differences. Just wondering. Great channel and content.
I looked at Katherine’s photos blown up and the right engine looks like it was not turning and feathered. It also looks like the nose gear trunnion off to the right in the grass. It will interesting to see where the horizontal stab is. My friend said the Baron’s nacelles will create lift in rotation and hold the nose up. This is a tough one for sure.
@@jonasbaine3538 Haha, but I think you could be at 15k and end up in the same pile. They were close to a mile up and came down at 60-70mph so under a minute from loss of control 15 thousand 2.5 minutes till you hit. Those are rough numbers and I am assuming the 6k per minute was accurate.
As a very young check airman, on a 135 new hire check ride, I failed an engine in a Chieftian soon after takeoff. I was looking for just a correct identification and planned on giving the engine back. He was highly skilled and very fast with emergencies. Furthermore, two high time Chieftian pilots. The aircraft was set up for aircargo and full of fuel. Before I could restore the mixture Mike had already secured the engine.....at barely 150 ft in a densely populated area. The Chieftian would not climb. I told him: "my aircraft" and found myself with an aircraft that I could not trim nor affect elevator even with brute force full aft. 150ft agl attempting to avoid obstacles maneuvering above a 6 lane highway, all just above VMC. Only correct move I made was taking the aircraft. Unwittingly this truely saved us. All the engine start controls are easily accessed from left seat and my left seater without hesitation began restart procedures. A 5 or 6 minute nightmare that saw us struggle as the 540 had essentially "vapor locked" and required full throttle and mixture at idle cut off which Mike had never performed. When the engine finally roared to life and we began climbing, I terminated the ride and told him to take us back. After much hanger talk and much head scratching, we discovered with 2 pilots, no interior and full fuel, we were out of CG, some 3 or 4 inches forward of the limit! Lesson here? Be wary of training flights! Especially, piston twins. Be very aware of CG, even though you are well below gross weight.
When they upengined the B-29, they had to make the vertical and rudder larger -- enough change that they redesignated it the B-50. Closer to home, the early, square-tail Cessna 150 had better spin recovery than the later swept-tail model. The horizontals blanked airflow in the area where the vertical and rudder are located, and in the same direction as the rudder, while the square tail poked up out of that blanked zone. Not enough airflow and air pressure = stall.
UPDATE 11 SEPT. New photos on Reddit show BOTH PROPS FEATHERED!. Left prop located behind the left wing.
Juan, is it possible that when they departed controlled flight, they slammed both throttles back and grabbed the prop controls as well in the confusion? Or can the props appear to be feathered because of the impact?
Could you post the reddit link?
My first thought here is the IP setting up a simulated engine out, and the other guy pulling the wrong controls AND kicking the rudder the wrong direction. It wouldn't take long for this to turn to worms. As far as V/SSE and ground track, if there was a few knots of wind in the direction that they were going, that would give them a ground track above V/SSE but an actual airspeed below. Again, not a lot of time to deal with this, especially when it has to be caught in the first quarter of a turn.
@@SoloPilot6 I calculated the winds aloft and IAS based on density altitude and they were right at Vsse (86 KIAS) a couple seconds before they spun. So that part was normal. If props are feathered, does that make spin recovery more difficult? I would tend to think so as you have no idle prop disc slowing down your rotation.
@@igclapp That would depend on which engine went out. While we think of thrust being straight back from the prop, it actually isn't (P-factor). There are a bunch of things that all affect each other in various ways. Having BOTH props feathered eliminates all effects from the engines, good or bad.
Let's also remember that the stated air temp for an area may not be what's actually being experienced by the airfoils. Is the plane's skin heated enough to reduce air density, even a little? How about engine exhaust, where is it going and what is it affecting? Heat from the oil coolers? The plane's been in sunlight, how hot is the fuel in the wing tanks, and what's that doing to the air flowing back across the ailerons?
For that matter, how accurate is the stated temp? I've seen "certified" thermometers just a few feet apart which didn't agree with each other by several degrees. Anyone who has ever flown a small plane over the Western deserts or ag areas (like Galt) knows the effect of the ground below on the air temp above.
Juan if RUclips demonetizes these videos then they are idiots. You are providing valuable lessons with each vid teaching people how to survive in airplanes. Thank you.
Why would they demonetize them? Is there an actual reason?
Maybe Juan is 'too factual' and some people don't like the hard truth staring them in the face? 🤔😏🙄🫣
@@endokrin7897 If I understand it correctly the RUclips minions assume that Juan is trying to profit off of other peoples tragedy. Meanwhile he is describing how these accidents happen (backed up by NTSB reports which collaborate his analysis) and informing us how to avoid falling victim to similar circumstances.
Yes, they are idiots. They would rather encourage silly videos (take your pick from the infinite vapidity) than anything educational...
Seems they need to have an actual close type of aircraft that has either a parachute anti-spin shute or an actual acrobatic twin where you actually do these movers at altitude where it can be made safe or at least safer to try and recover. Seems that is one aspect that would be a way to train and prevent this style of accident...
Personally, I think it should only be done in a simulator. The rest of the training is "DO NOT EVER DO THIS"... There are lots of things in flying that you don't need actual training on to know they're a really bad idea. It's like saying "Flying into a box canyon that exceeds your performance is a really bad idea - let's go out and fly into a random canyon and demonstrate this and hope we survive." Just say no.
Juan, you do a great job discussing these accidents and gleaning what we as pilots should look out for while being respectful to those involved. Appreciate you.
Was thinking the exact same thing. 👍🏽
My mother was a pharmacist for Raley's for 30 years, and Richard was the examiner who did my initial CFI checkride. This one hits a little close to home. Sobering that something like this can happen to even the most experienced pilots in the nicest of airplanes. Hopefully we can all learn from accidents like these, condolences to the families and friends left behind.
A military test pilot recently crash because he didn't release the lock physically holding the controls in place. He failed to do a checklist. I think if you are an animal, and we all are, you are subject to the whims of the soup in the can.
@@james-faulkner he was the real maverick!
This scares me because it's proof nobody is really safe.
After looking 👀at Density Altitude, Airspeed and Minimum Control Speed Chart on this report and that the Stall Speed can be Higher than the Minimum Control Speed it shows this Airplane to be Fundamentally Unsafe. Observe; Instructor pulls back left engine and targets MCS (Minimum Control Speed but Engine Out Stalls First with an Instant Spin ensuing; Caught by Surprise there’s no recovery in the Quarter Turn Window and as Juan said “They’re Off to the Rodeo. This Airplane Should be Grounded
@@james-faulkner Yep-Snodgrass, covered on this channel for sure.
I just scored an old stamped American Airlines mechanic’s tool chest and box set on Facebook marketplace. I’m restoring them. There is an old quote pasted inside the toolbox:
“Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.”
Thats a great find. Words of wisdom from the past.
Aviation in itself is inherently dangerous
@@davidmann4533 - not if practiced with caution and in airworthy aircraft. I long ago lost count of friends and acquaintances….somewhere north of 25….who have died in accidents. Every single one was careless, neglectful or exceeded his capacity. I’m alive today only because I took that saying to heart from my earliest flying days (1971) on.
So right!
My instructor (in a 172) quoted this to me several times as I moved toward my license.
I took it to heart - only one failure, and it ended as well as it could have.
Thank you, Lord!
The photo of its final resting place is haunting, somehow worse than a burned wreckage. Clearly as you said a flat spin. Must have been awful, RIP
U
@@lilianedediot4694 No U
@capybaras I was thinking exactly the same thing - it looks haunting. It looks like it just landed - the wings are in position and the plan is almost intact. It looks like it should’ve been survivable…but it wasn’t.
@@Jag-alskar-dig Internal organs would be a ruptured mash at those g-loadings upon impact with the ground. Not a hope.
We flew a B55 Baron for 10 years and I can remember my Dad talking about how the Baron was non recoverable in a flat spin. We had the bird from 1983 to 1993 in between a 2 Bonanza's and 2 C310's. We had VG's installed on the Baron and were doing stalls but Dad said we aren't doing full power or single engine stalls cause we don't need to die today. It was rather chilling but he told me we were flying a twin engine F33 and even though the Baron had a bigger tail it wasn't big enough. I never forgot that. So we did slow flight and also did stalls at lower power. The stalls were very docile. This picture looks to show the right engine feathered witch is a red flag to me. There were a couple guys in a Baron decades ago doing training in a Baron over the Florida Everglades Dad told me about who got into a flat spin and survived because they mushed into the swamp which absorbed they spin. Story was they tried every possible thing to get out of it and nothing came close to working. They tried swaping power on the engines and were able to reverse the spin but could never get the airplane to even hint at nose down. Gear, flaps you name it but no joy. Thanks for sharing!
@Paul Hilliard For sure, absolutely agree. Those training techniques have changed so much since my Dad's early days. So many fatal accidents back then from flight training.
Juan, Great job as always, just wanted to let you know I knew Richard Conte at the Sacramento FSDO and he was probably the best FAA guy I ever met. Really knowledgeable and helpful. The engines on a 1984 58 Baron and all later year models are TCM IO-550C. IO-520CB was used up to 1983 when the Baron 58 underwent significant changes in 1984. New instrument panel, separate dual controls (no more center control with control arms and/or he throw over yoke), gear and flap switches were now in their proper place, small increase in gross weight from 5,400 # to 5,500# and there were several other small changes. Dimensional, it was the same airplane.
Thanks Larry!
So sad! A colleague of mine told me about Richard a few weeks ago, he was about to do a check ride with him in the coming weeks. This makes the accident all the more personal. I learned about Richard, he is the salt of the earth, a very good and capable man. The news is devastating indeed!
He will be missed. My gut feeling is that the holes in the Swiss Cheese lined up, Juan. Recent temperatures and density altitude? We will never know.
My brother had a Baron for years, I'll have to get in touch.
@@robertborchert932 Robert, I owned and flew a B58TC for about 1,000 hours over 15 years and it was a fabulous airplane with little maintenance other than annuals. The TC is basically an unpressurized P58 and looks identical to a normally aspirated 58 except the engines are a foot farther in front of the wings because of the turbo plumbing and had a gross weight of 6,100#. In other words, the nacelle is a foot longer. I also had VGs and they did lower stall speed by about 3-4 kts. Mine was a 1977 and had TSIO-520LB engines built by LyCon (310 hp at 2,700X38 inches. the WB engine had 325 hp at 2,700X39.5 inches). Handling was Beechcraft perfect and balanced. I trained every other year (the first three years of ownership I trained every year) for about 4-5 hours in a B55 out of RHV basically flying single engine (other engine at zero trust) at 5,000'agl or higher except when doing single engine approaches (ifr). I also lucky to spend a week at Flight Safety. I now own a V35B.
This accident is a mystery. Conte was super regarded in the Sacramento area, a pilot's pilot and a prince of a man. I can't understand what happened unless there was a control cable or airframe failure. Juan's description of the what may have happened looks to be correct, the big question is why , especially with Richard Conte (and Kenneth Mueller) at the controls?
@@larryweitzman5163 I think the pilot candidate was the kind that locked up in panic with up elevator and frozed feet on pedals. I was a multi CFI. They can lock in panic and wont release the controls unless you hit them on ribs. seriously.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 You might be correct, the guy in the left seat may have froze up. I knew a CFI, Ron G., who had a student freeze up and wouldn't let go during a stall demonstration. Ron said that's a fire extinguisher's other purpose. Ron grabbed it and hit the student pilot up side the head hard enough to make him release the controls which was pretty hard. Ron never flew with that guy again.
Just started my multi training in a G58 with a very experienced instructor. Thank you for your detailed examination of this accident with what is available. A flat spin has to be the most terrifying kind of spin cause only a tremendous amount of horsepower can get you out of it and it is exceptionally rare.
Thank you for reassessment of basic points of flight instruction. Information all of us to constantly review and self evaluate.
Juan, I think you are on the money with your analysis. I managed to stall a Twin Comanche (while giving engine out instruction) at altitude and learned a valuable lesson. I never did that again!!! Seems likely that at the high density altitude in this case that’s what might have happened. One thing I learned in my many years of instructing is that training can quickly become counter productive. The training risks often outweigh the safety benefits intended. It seems to occur all too often, and experienced instructors (myself included) can often be too confident in their ability to handle these situations.
Bob , I have a twin Comanche also and on instrument check rides I always warn the instructor that stalls or VMCA demonstrations are banned. We certainly practice engine-out ops on climb or cruise but never near minimum speeds.
PARE
- power off
- ailerons neutral
- rudder opposite
- elevator full forward
Was it difficult to recover??
@@camh7788 recovered immediately before it got serious but it could very easily have developed into full spin. Would not like to experiment with a full spin recovery.
@@camh7788 Vmca demo is in my mind a once only thing done in
Initial twin training under very controlled circumstances and ideal conditions, and not a recurrent exercise. Recurrent training should focus on maintaining airspeed above Vmca. “You recall what will happen if you don’t maintain Vmca“ kind of thing.
How did you recover?
Juan. Excellent explanation of the dangers of when Vmca approaches stall speed.
Thank you for all the work you put into making these and other videos. It is extremely valuable for everyone to learn more.
Another superb review of currently know and obvious incident evidence along with an explanation of aircraft specific stall characteristics and general stall and stall recovery procedures. You are one of, if not the best GA incident video producers in RUclips .
That’s a shame. Such a beautiful plane and sounds like two great guys. I saw that plane at McClellan last year. Had no idea who it belonged to but took a picture because it was so beautiful. 😔
Another really sad one Juan. It’s over four and half decades since I did this sort of training, and I never ever underestimated the risk if things were in any way mishandled. As always- thanks for your work on this.
Right. Almost happened to me on a go around. My fault. English is my third language. Full Power instead.
thanks Juan, your accident analysis presentations are always very informative and interesting for us laymen albeit simultaneously sad...thank you for sharing your intelligence and experience...RIP to the pilots and condolences to their families...
This is crazy! I tracked that bird that morning! It flew nearly over my house around 0745 and I usually if in the house will check out one flying by on flightaware. It left Calaveras to Modesto then bounced over to Tracy shortly after. Man oh man. RIP gentlemen
I'm not an instructor, but I remember my old instructors use to let me go as far as I could recovering from emergency situations. Although none of my instructors has to take over... I feel there has got to be an incredible critical time where instructors have to decide when to take over... in microseconds. I think you are spot on in the overconfident assessment.. even if just a little.
Juan, do you remember the name “William Kerschner”? 50 years ago, he was fairly recognized, as one of THE “Go-To guys”, in the civilian flight training world. He wrote several manuals, pertaining to flight training. I have memories, of seeing a video, sometime in the early 1980’s, that I think Mr Kerschner produced, on the topic of “spins”. The subject of “aftermarket V.G.’s” was touched. Those devices, on some docile planes, in a developed spin, seemed to make a previously controllable plane uncontrollable, once established in a spin.
Ever since seeing that “material”, I have been somewhat less than enthusiastic about aftermarket V.G.’s.
I loved my Kershner manuals. They were excellent.
*_A.E.B.E. = All Else Being Equal_*
This is the universal caveat for any technical mod to anything that functions with more than 1 independent variable.
It's why _silver bullets_ are so hard to come by.
Juan thank you for the concise and accurate breakdown...this one was brutal...condolences to both families
Juan, Thank you for your excellent aviation reports. (Been with you since early Oroville Dam, and learned so much about aviation, dam structures, off-road motorcycling, and how to be a great Dad & husband).
Asymmetric demonstration and recoveries are probably one of the most dangerous maneuvers you can do in aircraft. All the way up to transport category aircraft. I've lost count of the amount of fatal accidents i've read over my time in aviation because of it - and they continue to happen. One of the greatest reasons we now use simulators instead of doing it for real. It's such a shame there still isn't affordable and realistic simulator options for the smaller end of multi engine planes and the practise of doing checks and training in actual aircraft is prohibited.
I’m surprised one cannot do this with X-Plane Pro. CFI’s are using this sim for a lot of other flight practices, and in VR, the B58 G1000 is similar (smaller engines and no VGs) to the crash model. But the bottom line is your perspective is spot on.
There are full simulators for Baron training. The owners/pilots had the money. Just a bad choice to practice incipient loss of control in the air where that one little error means death. FAA has specific warnings against this type of in-aircraft Baron training.
@Andrew_koala OK Mr Perfect......
X Plane or even MS Flight Simulator COULD be real options..
I know some pilots consider them 'games' but the physics they have are very realistic; on a per plane basis. (Each model had its own characteristics.)
It's time to get with the times. ATPs fly Level D sims and the time counts as flight time!
Just sayin'
@Andrew_koala No one misunderstood his post; you owe him an apology. You know, because otherwise you'll be seen as more of a jackass than a koala.
I've got a lot of time in the baron both the 260 horse and the 285 horsepower models. I have been an instructor and a DPE in light aircraft for several years. I'm retired now. Decades ago the US Army did a study on this model of Beechcraft because they were experiencing a lot of accidents. The Army used to operate the baron and it was a difficult airplane to control in vmc demonstrations. This sounds like just more of the same.
tragic then that this accident was somewhat predictable and wasn't prevented or perhaps beechcraft could have done recal or design update work
Thank you for providing some insight into the relationship between Vmc, stall speed, density altitude and how they can aggravate the recovery from an accidental spin. I watched that part twice.
Thanks for the explanation about mass location and spin. Never heard that before.
I had never heard of stalling the rudder before, but it stands to reason that any aerodynamic surface can stall. Thanks Juan.
You can see this if you look at an ice skater spinning around. Tucked in tight, fast spin, but when she moves her hands and off foot away from the axis, she slows almost to a stop -- but the weight then keeps the spin going until she turns that into another maneuver or brakes with her feet.
The method I used to train for Vmca was to reduce the amount of rudder available for the student which caused an artificial Vmca which was above the stall speed of the aircraft.
My old boss (and an instructor) did that, as it showed the concept. Unfortunately some examiners and the FAA want the full monty, using full rudder no matter what
@@boeingav8tr525 I had a great instructor for my multi-engine and multiengine instructor ratings.
Thanks Juan for your detailed analysis of this tragic accident. Like many others have said, I only hope we can derive some life saving education from this terrible accident. Thank you also Juan for using my photos in a way that tells the story such that people better understand what likely happened and how to avoid this outcome.
Excellent video, Juan. You note at 11:32 that Vsse (intentional one engine inoperative speed) is 86 KIAS in the Baron. You also show an excerpt from the Baron POH warning that minimum control training and checkrides should never be conducted below Vsse.
Temp at KSAC around the time of the accident was 25 degrees C. That would put the temp at 5000 feet at roughly 15 degrees C. At a pressure altitude of of 5000 feet and 15 degrees C, 86 KCAS translates to 94 KTAS. Based on the 360 turns performed right before the spin, it appears winds at altitude were 10 knots out of the west. As the plane was on a north heading, the direct crosswind would not have affected groundspeed by more than about one knot.
ADS-B shows the plane at 94 knots groundspeed and in a climb of 320 fps just before the departure into the spin.
I still remember the vmc demo from my multi training 20 years ago. Holding that configuration and feeling the ailerons stop having roll control was super fascinating to me.
Very informative Juan. I appreciate all the details in your explanation. This is scary because this seems like one of those maneuvers that’s too dangerous to practice for the odd chance that you’d actually find yourself in this situation. Also this is the first time I’ve heard an examiner being fatally injured during a check ride. So sad. My condolences to everyone involved.
As always, information and precise. Thank you.
Stay safe.
One again your insight, thoughtfulness, and compassion has helped us all be better pilots. My prayers and best wishes go out to our lost friends and their families.
Thank you Juan for all your recent reports on these terrible incidents. Aviation is such a tried & tested & trusted form of travel and it has been for soooo many years...yet it's also such a finicky form of travel of a fine line of procedures for it to have become so...and how those procedures and processes are so vital to successful operations of an aircraft are imperative...and to those such as yourself who are pilots...more respect to you and all...as recent times have shown that it can become such a traumatic event when something goes awry!!!!
Many many more safe flights to yourself and all those that take on the great beyond in aviation!!!!
Cheers from Sydney Aus!!!!
hi juan.. Indonesian Navy Bonanza training plane crash on java sea near surabaya 2 days ago.. 2 fatalities... rip..
I learn so much from your channel Juan! Thank you for taking the time to post all your videos and the professionalism that goes into your presentations!
Thanks Juan. As a pilot myself I find questioning many training’s that I received or gave in the past and we had similar conditions.
Ex. altitudes around (5000’), slow flight, and engine failure identification techniques. We were in that coughing margin.
RIP Sad loss.
Excellent video, Juan. I got my multiengine rating in 1990 and haven't flown a twin since the 90's, but I do remember the VMC demo. Of course I studied the literature first, but I wasn't smart enough to realize it was such a high risk maneuver.
It always saddens me to hear of these crashes, I had wanted to be a licensed pilot when I was younger but life just got in the way, love working on aircraft. We lost a pilot here at Minter and he will be missed. 🙏⚘️♥️🇺🇸
Hello sir, random subscriber here.
Hope your well!
I randomly stumbled upon a crash in Santa Monica California/Airport.
2 fatalities(student and teacher) unfortunately.
I thought this accident would be of interest for you to skillfully breakdown.
Thanks again for all that you do!
Thanks Juan. I always learn something from you.
Your analysis' always demonstrate a comprehensive and in depth knowledge that is immensely useful and meaningful-
I agree - a constant altitude with decreasing speed would be a Vmc demo. As an instructor, you should be limiting rudder travel with your foot and be ready to yank the power on both engine as soon as LOC starts to happen, along with full rudder and down elevator to dump lift (avoid the stall). It's a risky maneuver, as they go. You DO NOT want to stall a twin - ever.
You don't dump liftbso much as angle of attack. Yes it does decrease lift but if already stalled or partially stalled you actually gain lift by decreasing angle of attack.
Alpenglow hit the nail exactly!!
I think I experienced something like this in the new Xplane 12 simulator. I was taking off with the beechcraft baron and I theorized that I can turn faster by differentiating throttle inputs as I was climbing out just like we used differential braking during taxi with taildraggers. Before I could realize what was happening, the wing dropped, plane started to spin around dropping rapidly out of the sky slamming into the ground. It was crazy how fast everything happened!
Outstanding video and presentation.
Thanks Juan. As a pilot this one is very haunting.
I remember reading at one point in the late 1950s or the 1960s there were more twin engine fatals from training/instruction then from engine out crashes in singles.
The Piper Twin Comanche was used for multi engine instruction during that period and many fatal accidents resulted. It had counter-rotating props as a safety feature but was not really designed for singe engine out training and maneuvering.
@@bernieschiff5919 No, the Twin Comanche came many years later. The Apache started in 1954. I trained in one in about 1966 and fully loaded I suspect it could not hold altitude above maybe 1,500 feet on a hot day. That single engine operation only extended your distance to an emergency landing compared to gliding in a single.
@@bernieschiff5919 Excellent point. Some years ago a very experienced pilot -friend whom I knew was on approach to landing at Hayward (HWD) in an Apache. He lost an engine , the plane went down and he was killed. Truly sad…..
@@bjs2022 As I recall light twins were not required to maintain altitude at gross for certification. Trained in the Apache in 1967 and had an actual engine out just after leveling off to begin the exam. Scanning left I noticed oil streaming over the left engine cowling and the Examiner asked what are you looking at and I simply pointed to the oil pressure gauge which was decreasing rapidly. He leaned quickly forward to view the left engine and said go to the engine out procedure which I did. Since it was the "critical engine" with the only hydraulic pump available for gear extension I got to lower the gear manually; about 30 pump's if I recall. Not being far from the airport but at a relatively low altitude I had to descend slowly to maintain Vmc for landing;Oklahoma in July. Since I discovered the problem on the "critical engine" and was very familiar with emergency procedure's I passed the check ride based on that maneuver only. Total time in type including the flight check was 5.6 hr. Cause of oil leak was a ruptured oil cooler hose; through an oil analysis there was no damage to the engine.
@@garymiller5624 Great story, thanks.
Great job Juan. As usual explained in detail .
This stall/crash appears to have been at an altitude where a Cirrus type chute could have saved the pilots.
These events are tragic and my heart goes out to the families and friends.
Sincere thanks Juan.
RIP. Condolences and prayers for the families. Thank you JB for this report. 🙏
I flew with Richard 5 years ago, and we had many mutual friends. I was in Galt for work the week before this accident. I even got a few phone calls from coworkers in Galt that day. So sad all the way around.
I remember getting an MEI that the most dangerous part was teaching a student VMCA because if they messed up the recovery it was very important to take over and correctly recover before it was too late. The first and most important thing to do if the plane starts yawing is cut the power on the full power engine. (That should stop the yawing moment) while simultaneously lowering the nose and applying opposite rudder.
I haven’t done any Vmc demos or single engine work in my 310 since 2003. I do it in the simulator every two years. Not worth the risk but to each their own.
Exactly what I thought. Do this in a sim.
These cases becoming quite common. This is truly tragic and very sad. You are far more knowledgeable and experienced than I. Someway somehow a change has to be made. Thank you Juan for keeping informed, your work is invaluable.
Thanks a million Mr Browne. 👍👍
So sad. 🙏🙏🙏
This accident certainly gave me pause. I am training for Comm Multi in a 310. Thanks for covering this particular accident. We definitely lost some good pilots.
Thank you for covering this.
These are wonderful, sobering and haunting breakdowns, Juan, as always. I learn so much from your analyses. As a former multi CFI, my question is how do you then teach VmC, or slow flight regime in general in light twins? Should we just mandate that all such training be in sims? Do the costs outweigh the benefits?
That's not a bad idea. Seems like these light twins are just itching to bite you.
I was told to do Rudder Blocks or limit the students rudder travel so it Vmc at a higher speed.
The onus is on the instructor to block the rudders or to force the student to recover at a specific speed. 1kt per second must be adhered to. Frasca sims do not do a good enough job properly emulating rudder pressures in single engine ops, at least in my experience with the PA-44.
Thanks for proving this valuable service Juan.
Thank you for the report, sir. I know these accidents are never fun to get sorted out to do the reports. Good luck. 👍
Very sorry to hear that . Condolences to the families.
Juan, Thank you for your consistently great coverage of airplane mishaps. It saddens and concerns me as to the sheer number of crashes and lives lost due to airplane crashes, especially the last few months. We as a pilot group, and CFi's, need to do a better job and stay at the top of our game. As a retired 747 Captain and current CFIA/CFII I have seen it all and recently don't like what I see. I require my current students to do more than just be able to fly a plane. Threat assessment, decision making, complete preflight briefing, etc, etc are just as, if not more important, for a successful flight.
One of the reasons the twin Comanche I flew for years had such a bad rap. Back then the instructor would teach at low altitude and with initially low power settings before adding power to the single engine. Disproportionate number of twin Comanches went in because there was such a large training fleet of PA30s. When I did my rides, we were at 4500 ft agl.
Juan,
Excellent report - thank you. Too bad another tragedy.
Paul (in MA)
Great explanation of vmca and critical engine Juan , you are the go to guy for “anything aviation” avait navigate communicate
I live in Elk Grove, just a few miles north of the accident site, and it has indeed been crazy hot this last week, in the 108° to 116°F range in mid afternoon for several days running. I learned a lot from this video; for example, I didn't know that twin engines can make it more difficult to recover from a spin than a single engine in an aircraft of the same size and weight. It sounds to me as if there is a possibility that, had the flight been in a Cessna Caravan, with it's single engine, the unrecoverable spin might have been averted. First the mid-air collision at Watsonville and now this, 4 people killed in just a couple of weeks in small aircraft here in Nor-Cal. Very sad for the families of these men.
Yep probably a Vmc demo gone wrong. I was an MEI while working my way up and by far ME training was the most dangerous instruction I ever did. You had to put you, your student, and the airplane in bad situations to make the training realistic. I taught in the Piper seminole which only had 160 normally aspirated HP a side....less up at altitude. Not enough to get into big trouble during a botched Vmc demo. But the Baron with those big turbo engines is another story. The twin comanche with it's tip tanks was also notorious for flat spins if mishandled during training. I was taught to pull power and drop the gear in a flat spin. The idea being gear drag would pull the nose down to a positive AOA and the wings are flying again and the rudder effective to allow recovery. Fortunately I never had to put that to the test. RIP to these two souls.
When I did twin BFRs, I had them feather one. But I always used the simulated SE thrust settings for any SE air work.
Reading all these comments shows the extreme value your constant analysis provides the rest of us.
I am wondering if the DPE checked the METARS at KSAC or KSCK for temps and density altitude before beginning the exercises at 4,700’
Also concur about the “left-seat-lockup.” I have heard multiple similar stories.
Two fatalities and one beautiful airplane gone…. Just sad.
Nearly identical accident B58 with VGs near Latrobe PA several years ago. Peter Garrison wrote an article about the danger of VG change of stall speed below Vmc.
Manual page (@12:22) sez: "The following procedure shall be used at a safe altitude of at least 5000 feet above the ground in clear air only." but your flightaware chart shows them below 5000 feet for the entire flight.
An object in motion tends to stay in motion. Thanks so much Juan !
Did my PPL checkride with Conte. RIP
Very saddening 😢. My heart goes out to the loved ones they left behind. I truely know the absolute and intense horror sudden loss leaves us with. worse is pervading intensity of every atom around us reminds us of them. mainly in hope it was all incorrect, some kind of admin or name mixup, and they still exist. seeking, painfully, for a tiny scrap of our hope to be realised. and that never stops. Ever.
maybe the one you look for is in heaven very much alive and you know it is true - that is why your heart persists! the spiritual life of eternity is every bit as real as the present - perhaps more so - much more so! maybe so, my friend!
Great explanation flew the c402 1000s of hours in the 80s, RIP,
In my flying lessons, which I am still doing, the spin and spiral recovery scared the living daylights out of me the first time we did it. They still do! My lessons are in a Piper Cherokee and a Warrior. The Cherokee for the spins and other like maneuvers. Losing nearly 1000 feet in a spiral so quickly is a huge eye opener at how dangerous it is to get into one, especially when turning final. My deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the two who perished.
@@baaa4698 1977 PA-28-140 Cherokee
Never flown a Cherokee certified for spins. In fact spinning was prohibited. The Cherokee if flown within its limitations is a very inherently stable aircraft and is more inclined to waffle about in a stall with limited wing drop unless commanded do do so with rudder imput.
@@challenger2aircraftadventures have you personally sighted the aircraft certification.
@@rickhannah6262 Yes.
@@baaa4698 Spins in the 140 are limited, and only in the utility category. So we have to be careful to ensure the weight and balance is in that envelope.
May God comfort the families of these pilots. My sincerest condolences. Thanks Juan.
The early-block P-38 had both props turning the same way, resulting in a tendency to roll if you lost an engine, especially at low speeds. When they went to counter-rotating props, the Lockheed pilot went around to the bases saying "The left engine is no longer the critical engine . . .with this new setup, BOTH engines are critical!"
“The most dangerous mission is a training flight.” - Ex Navy Carrier Pilot I know.
one of my friends crashed while taking the commercial pilot check ride in a piper satatoga with a DPE. the DPE cut power to simulate engine failure. my friend hit trees on short final and crashed onto the end of the runway. both men were thrown clear of the plane and survived the DPE had a broken arm. the plane burst into flames. the DPE was cited in the accident report as contributing to the accident by failure to initiate power before hitting the trees. since then the runway threshod was displaced. KSSI.
It may also have been a power off stall recovery gone bad.
The one real Vmc I got into was as a MEI in a Seneca. The commercial student was practicing power off stalls to a full break. On one recovery he added power before getting the nose down and airspeed above blue line. One engine came on line, but the other engine “coughed”. Since we were below Vmca the airplane immediately rolled past 90 degrees. Fortunately I use to teach aerobatics and immediately pushed forward on the yoke, unloading the flight controls, while simultaneously bringing both throttled to idle. We were able to immediately recover. The very startled student asked, “What the %^*# was that?” I responded, “That was a Vmc roll.” It was much more abrupt than the Vmc maneuver we practice,
Great comment 👍
My thoughts also... If they were actually doing the Vmc demo you would expect the DPE to be ready to block the rudder and reduce throttles.
Wow.. God bless their souls.. Prayers to their families and friends. I went skydiving there on my 40th BD. There's been numerous accidents there throughout the years..
GREAT VIDEO, JUAN GREAT JOB...
I can’t help but imagine the last moments of these crashes. May these men Rest In Peace and be honored by their friends and family.
You always refer back to what you have said before. We certainly appreciate it, and we always remember what you've said. Case in point: You can stall at any speed but at only one critical angle of attack. It might be annoying if it wasn't about aviation, where it can be the difference between life and death. We appreciate your attitude and that is, and that is education. They shouldn't de-monitize any of your videos for that reason. Condolences to the pilots and their families.
According to Scott Perdue over at Flywire you may actually need to pull back on the elevator too help recover from a spin. That's because when you're falling flat the elevator blocks air that's rushing up from below from hitting the rudder. Raising the elevator lets some of this air wash over the rudder giving it more authority and once you stop spinning then you push forward on the yoke.
You can look up his video on the subject titled "J35 Bonanza Power-On Stall / Spin" and he goes into detail at 10:14 of said video.
This is so sad, I had a checkride scheduled with Richard in 2 weeks from now
Dang that's rough. 😔
He was also going to do my IR checkride. So sad :((
My mom's boss fatally spun in his Baron on take off years ago on my B'day shortly after I passed my written. Needless to say, bc of that I'm always interested in light Twin mishaps like this. Thanks!
Juan, thanks for all the information.
Your knowledge continues to impress me - I learn at each of your videos. I start to worry about not knowing what I don't know. For instance this video makes me think about flying gliders with water ballast: Add mass far away from center of gravity while increasing stall speed... hmmm...
Juan - at my flight school we had a PA-44 spin. Instructor and student started at 6500 or so. For some reason during a stall recovery the airplane entered a spin with an aggressive wing drop. About 2500ft AGL they were 90° nose down according the data cards. At the last second the instructor added asymmetric thrust opposite the spin and it recovered at roughly ~800ft AGL. FAA and NTSB got involved to figure out what happened. Obviously conflicting reports from the student and instructor but either way a terrifying picture was painted. Goes to show that multiengine twin maneuvering - not just VMC demos - is incredibly dangerous to pilots.
That was a lot of good info
What a bad couple weeks we're having in the aviation world. Bad year, if I'm honest. Prayers for the families of these 2 men. R.I.P.
Knew Richard well, did a lot of work with him some 20 years ago when he was with the FAA. Rest well my friend.
I think the aircraft impacted 20-30 m prior to it's resting place slightly right wing down. It has had just enough forward airspeed for the aircraft to then veer sharp right as the RH prop had dug into the terrain which has caused the fuse to break just behind the cabin. The disturbed vegetation behind the left wing is as the wing has arced around as it rotated.
Hey Juan! Are you going to highlight the Santa Monica Piper Sport crash?
Need more info.
Do you think an aggressive spin recovery technique like the Single Spin Recovery in a T-37 might have broken that spin? Rudder--abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn needle and hold. Stick--abruptly full forward one turn after applying rudder. Etc. Probably not. The 37 didn't have those big engines out there among other differences. Just wondering. Great channel and content.
I looked at Katherine’s photos blown up and the right engine looks like it was not turning and feathered. It also looks like the nose gear trunnion off to the right in the grass. It will interesting to see where the horizontal stab is. My friend said the Baron’s nacelles will create lift in rotation and hold the nose up. This is a tough one for sure.
another sure thing is I won’t be doing twin stalls at only 4500.
@@jonasbaine3538 Haha, but I think you could be at 15k and end up in the same pile. They were close to a mile up and came down at 60-70mph so under a minute from loss of control 15 thousand 2.5 minutes till you hit. Those are rough numbers and I am assuming the 6k per minute was accurate.
As a very young check airman, on a 135 new hire check ride, I failed an engine in a Chieftian soon after takeoff. I was looking for just a correct identification and planned on giving the engine back. He was highly skilled and very fast with emergencies. Furthermore, two high time Chieftian pilots. The aircraft was set up for aircargo and full of fuel. Before I could restore the mixture Mike had already secured the engine.....at barely 150 ft in a densely populated area. The Chieftian would not climb. I told him: "my aircraft" and found myself with an aircraft that I could not trim nor affect elevator even with brute force full aft. 150ft agl attempting to avoid obstacles maneuvering above a 6 lane highway, all just above VMC. Only correct move I made was taking the aircraft. Unwittingly this truely saved us. All the engine start controls are easily accessed from left seat and my left seater without hesitation began restart procedures. A 5 or 6 minute nightmare that saw us struggle as the 540 had essentially "vapor locked" and required full throttle and mixture at idle cut off which Mike had never performed. When the engine finally roared to life and we began climbing, I terminated the ride and told him to take us back. After much hanger talk and much head scratching, we discovered with 2 pilots, no interior and full fuel, we were out of CG, some 3 or 4 inches forward of the limit! Lesson here? Be wary of training flights! Especially, piston twins. Be very aware of CG, even though you are well below gross weight.
I had never heard of a rudder stall before. This must have been a terrifying way to go.
When they upengined the B-29, they had to make the vertical and rudder larger -- enough change that they redesignated it the B-50. Closer to home, the early, square-tail Cessna 150 had better spin recovery than the later swept-tail model. The horizontals blanked airflow in the area where the vertical and rudder are located, and in the same direction as the rudder, while the square tail poked up out of that blanked zone. Not enough airflow and air pressure = stall.