Did Jesus Exist? ATHEIST vs Christian (Vocab Malone & David Fitzgerald)
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- Опубликовано: 4 мар 2018
- Fast moving and fun debate between Vocab Malone and atheist David Fitzgerald of the Secular Student Alliance. David is the author of Nailed, a book arguing Jesus never existed. Our focus is the non-biblical evidence for Jesus, such as the Jewish historian Josephus. Watch the whole thing to see a special extended discussion after the show … Click on the link at the end to watch the full uncut video, with the in between break discussions!
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#MarchForMessiah
*Recorded live in the KPXQ Talk Studio in Phoenix, AZ
Lol, Fitzgerald is funny. Dope debate. Cab took this one, hands down.
That Christian dude would change the subject every time he got cornered.
Not really
That's all they ever do.
You can't have a dialog with anybody who talks fast and loud and over you
If a book could have serious implications on an "eternity" , you'd think it wouldn't be so damn confusing.
Which part confuses you? This is an honest question.
If it's written by God, it's going to have layers.
The basic meaning is easy to understand.
But it does all it says is bunch of crap it says believe in Jesus which doesn't do anything because I can throw you into Hellfire too and actually eternity Jesus could be thrown to Hellfire himself for eternity which he probably was and is.
And they don't need any arguing apologists to defend it they just need regular people who can think for themselves and conform to it and prove it as well as it proves itself independently.
First time I've seen Vocab without a top!
The description States fast moving debate, why were people upset that each person was talking over the other one at times? Neither of The debaters seem to have a problem with it. And in the end it appeared that they enjoyed each other's back and forth.
I'm pretty sure most of the people who said this have been guilty at some point in their life of doing the exact same thing. Because of passion about a subject, their own ideals on a subject and at times even blind yet zealous ignorance on a subject.
David even does it at the end of the debate as vocab is throwing some information his way because he doesn't agree with vocabs thoughts on the matter.
Onlookers and commenters upset about nothing.
Vocab, As I always Said....Most People can't Tell Fact from Fiction.
Let's hear from the camera man lol
Pathetic, I've listened to a lot of these now. It's time we (atheists) stop debating theists on these points. Let's start having podcast talks with one another about actually fixing the horrible brainwashed / conditioned / indoctrinated mind set of the world. I would be surprised if any of these conversations were actually helping humanity. Maybe I'm wrong.
RMZ 450 RMZ you are dead on. Debates like this are a waste of time. No one can help this apologist dude. No one. He can’t even wait long enough for David F to finish a sentence. Uggggghhhh.
It's a waste of time to you because you LOSE every debate. Try exploring the Bible - start with all the archaeology that backs it. That's what did it for me. GOD Bless.
Sandy Pidgeon That’s the whole point! When you start an investigation with an outcome, you cannot seriously be impartial. Unfortunately, the Bible is not a historical account of history and archeology (in particular), strengthens that case.
@@blairansellfraser Good afternoon, Blair. ah no. The Bible is the most studied book in history. Why do archaeologists doing "digs" in the Middle East first consult the Bible? Please give me ONE example of where archaeology does NOT support the Bible. Several atheists have concluded - Ehrman and Gerd Ludemann - that the historical account is accurate.
Sir William Ramsay was a classics professor at Oxford who set out to DISPROVE the Bible by doing Paul's "walk" through ACTS. He found that Luke was a better historian than the Romans because of the archaeology. He became a Christian because of it. Please look him up - even wiki gets this right. GOD Bless.
@@sandypidgeon4343 uh..because they don't
5 This, rather, you must do; overthrow their altars, break their idols, cut down their sacred groves, set fire to their carved figures,
Fitzgerald is way too nervous and excited. He interrupts his opposition in mid sentence, he stammers when attempting to make his point, he hurries when spouting his position instead of calmly making it. While he claims to have a BA in History, he strikes me as someone who failed to acquire the benefits of college, namely the discipline and technique of argumentation.
Geo fromNJ Wrong on all counts. Fitzgerald is the only one in the room who knows what he's talking about. He's talking fast to correct all the false arguments spewing out so fast.
@@AndrewBackhouse1I disagree, he came off like a conspiracy theorist
Somehow, believing in magic puts a Christian’s arguments on equal footing with arguments based on evidence. And, additionally, justifies douchiness in response to skepticism.
Mr. Fitzgerald nails it again. Mythicists rule historicists drool.
you mean your contradiction in terms?
@@sandypidgeon4343 I was just being silly. I've done more research on the origin of Christianity and have reached an intriguing position: the texts Christianity is based on, is in actuality one of the most clever, vicious post-war political satires ever written wherein the leaders and followers of a defeated rebellion are maliciously mocked and the military triumphs of the victors and the victors themselves are glorified. In the Gospels a Jesus is even pressed in a wine press! Another Jesus, in the Wars of the Jews by Josephus Flavius, is crushed with a stone hurled from a catapult as soon as he says "...and woe to me also!" Ha! Looney Tunes! Have a great day.
@@intermediaryfossil7163 What is your proof for that claim? GOD Bless.
@@sandypidgeon4343 Primarily because, sequentially, geographically and conceptually, Gospel Jesus's ministry matches The Wars of The Jews military campaign of Titus Flavius, the Roman general who surrounded Jerusalem with a wall and destroyed the temple. Jesus's "prophecies" are like taunting puns depicting scenes and triumphs of Titus Flavius as he wars through Judea. For example in the same location, at the start of both of their "beginnings", Gospel Jesus "prophecies" "...I will make you fishers of men...we will catch men." And in Wars of the Jews, Titus Flavius has a sea battle where he literally catches and fishes for men, the Jewish rebels, during the sea battle. Prophecy fulfilled! This is the type of humor of the combined literature. Jesus will say something "mysterious", "symbolic"-and Titus will do it or it will literally happen. And these parallel connections just keep occurring in EXACT sequence! Here's another. Remember Gospel Simon's three denials that he is not Jesus's disciple? In Wars of the Jews guess how many times Titus tells rebel Simon to surrender and guess how many times rebel Simon refuses: yep. Three times. Archaeologically coins have been discovered from the Jewish rebellion that have Eleazar/Lazarus (that's a whole nother fascinating can of worms) on one side and Simon, on the other. The works are supposed to be read together to understand this subsurface satirical dimension. Check out Caeser's Messiah by Joseph Atwill, he does a lot of the heavy lifting. You can check this premise yourself by analyzing Josephus Flavius works in combination with the Bible/Gospels. I recommend the kindle versions (easier to search). The audio version of Caeser's Messiah is terrific as well. Test this premise. Let me know what you think, what you discover. Who knew the bible could be so entertaining! If you want a few more examples let me know. Enjoy your day/night.
@@sandypidgeon4343 Forgot to mention: Valliant and Fahy: Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Created Christianity. They demonstrate their amazing conclusion archaeologically. Among other findings, they have the coin photos, the Arch of Titus etc...Really an amazing work as well. Audio version is terrific too. Have a tremendous day.
Great job, Vocab. Love it.
We know that the gospels are not what he claims because they didn't exist until lifetimes later.
"early christians worshipping jesus"
That proves literally nothing other than christians worshipped jesus. People worshipped all sorts of people and gods. Does that make them real?
Hate to tell u guys.... shlomo pines names is actually pronouneced shlomo " penis" just for consistencies sake.
Kurio is not lord it just means master or owner or one who runs a subject.
Lord or Lady etc is In Greek koine and Normal Greek is Archonetes.
By his logic how can he trust anything historically
To answer your question you can’t. History is written by the victors and the standard for calling something history is a far cry from the rigor of science. Not to mention that the only extra biblical evidence for Jesus was proven to be a forgery the only question is how much of it was a forgery. If you tell me that a passage in a book is a forgery, I don’t care how much of it is or isn’t, I wouldn’t trust any of it.
Plenty of ancient people are proven to have existed, Jesus isn't one of them.
Exactly. Yet these same people who question the existence of a man 2000 years ago will look at you with a straight face and talk about the big bang billions of years ago or knowing we were ape like creatures millions of years ago. What a joke.
becomes extranious
This is stupid. Among world class scholars virtually no one buys the mythicist argument.
🙄 it’s like arguing if Caesar ever existed. History deniers.
Except there is evidence for Caesar.
mickey thompson 🤦♂️ and we have more written about Jesus of Nazareth then we do Caesar.
@@radical4christ214 Really? By contemporary sources?
David writes about this directly in his book. The evidence for Caesar is physical, from all sides even enemies, and contemporary
I’m really surprised David let him slide on so much
David didn't "let him slide...David lost...
Nope
this is no way to discuss a topic, any topic.
Man, the whole part after the debate was over, Vocab just took him to school in his own field. lol
Whaddo You Meme?? No, Vocab just spoke into/over all attempts to answer questions, as is his way. Anyhows. You think a god-almighty who spoke to iron-age, goat-hearders, in a collection of books almost two-thousand years old and counting, has divine relevance today? Okay with that? I 'm not.
When would you give it up? Into the third millennium? The fourth?..
Good question! Why did your christ not end things before the first millennium? Surely he knew, by the second (At very least) that we would start to be asking serious questions on his time-line! Your god is a time trickster?!
The fact that Christians to this day have to continue to attempt to argue god into existence is pretty indicative of how compelling said argument is.
Jordan Vincenzo Yes, agreed. It's long silly. Their 'god hypothesis' (Their most recent one) is well over two thousand years from his supposed birth..
Two people arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Who fun? Depends on who you thought was right before you viewed the video.
"BEAUTIFUL" BIBLICAL CHAPTERS ABOUT JEWISH RELIGION!!!
6 Suffer none to whisper that counsel in thy ears, brother nor son nor daughter, nor the wife thou dost cherish in thy bosom, nor the friend thou lovest as thy own self. Whoever bids thee follow the worship of alien gods, unknown to thee and to thy fathers,
7 gods of any other nation in the wide world, near or far,
8 do not consent, do not listen. Have no glance of pity for them, throw no merciful cloak over their guilt; 9 put them to death without parley. The hand of every Israelite must be lifted against them, but thine first of all.
10 One who would so tempt thee away from the worship of the Lord thy God, that rescued thee from slavery in Egypt, must die by stoning;
5 It is through him we have received the grace of apostleship; all over the world, men must be taught to honour his name by paying him the homage of their faith,
Richard Carrier says he probably never existed,but even if did,he was no God....
Theists,like Craig are poor Historians,Scientists and Philosopher,they dont care about facts but cherry pick to try to support their silly beliefs
Carrier??? LOLOLOL.......Carrier is a fraud. Carrier regularly gets his false academic tail handed to him in every debate. You say William Lane Craig is a poor historian? What are YOUR academic bona-fides. You certainly need a grammar lesson.
Jesus is God sir he raised from the dead he was only able to do things God could
@@VitoHoffa AMEN
I wish this guy would stop using words like “logic” when he’s trying to defend the existence of an inter-dimensional zombie Jewish carpenter with whom he’s best friends.
Why?
Poisoning the well
Vocab like all Christians you need to know the truth is the word Christ and Truth like your false belief system Christ actually has nothing to do with Jesus and it's not the same as Messiah and Jesus was no Messiah or and he wasn't a Christ either so all you got left is just jesus with no label.
David's final argument.." Atheist scholars disagree with the thoughts that Jesus never existed because they're working for Jesus."
...........
besides the bible, which can't prove itself, give evidence for jesus
It's been 2 years and this is the first reply. There is no evidence.
@@god_is_gay_for_satan prob. no one has time to waste, if you and the other fella @Augford P. Doggie don't accept Jesus is alive( not even gonna entertain the 'he never' existed madness coming out of you lot)
then hold to it and see where it gets you....simple really.
@@MRFITTA OH. So you have some evidence? I'd love to hear it. Been asking for years and no one has ever produced any sufficient evidence to even prove he existed let alone he had magical powers. But wow. You have evidence he's still alive? Wow. World changing. Produce said evidence so I can become a believer.
@@god_is_gay_for_satan lol, your'e joking obvs. wait Im coming with it....yh, right, as if.
And while you're waiting, can you tell me one religion where the main person of focus didnt exist and, it was proven.
Then explain why the person with the largest following of the lot- the Lord Jesus is a fictional character.
As I've typed this its obvs. that only an unbalanced individual would even try but anyway, go ahead explain pls.
@@MRFITTA Your comment is so hard to understand... How am I suppose to respond to that crap? Take your time and type things coherently please. I didnt see any evidence for your god in that terrible comment. Maybe I missed it.
First a religion where the main person doesn't exist? Um what does that even mean? Are you asking if the religion's diety didn't exist?
The amount of people that follow a religion doesn't make it based of factual events. Thats fallacious.
Where is your evidence. I was really excited then you let me down.
anyone looking for a good scholarly essay on Josephus with regard to this debate should see: "Jesus in Josephus: A Modest Proposal." The Catholic Biblical Quarterly 52, 1990 John P. Meier. This is the accepted scholarship and pointed out to me during seminary. GOD Bless.
Josephus didn't exist when Jesus was purported to exist. All he is doing is repeating what he heard
@@flame984 so what....that isn't the way history is written. Josephus took the eye-witness accounts from Roman historians beginning in 78AD. Thallus was much earlier. Letters from many non-biblical Roman historians account for the Christian movement in "Chrestus".
@@sandypidgeon4343 Resurrection and walking on water is not history. It’s on Harry Potter level.
@@GeoPePeTto so you're a history denier. Even atheist scholars confirm Jesus was a real historical figure. You might want to do some research - your eternal destiny depends on it.
@@sandypidgeon4343 Sure. Whatever makes you sleep at night.
None of the references, were either old enough, or alive to have met Jesus.. NO one.. that met Jesus as a man, wrote a word about him. Period..
The Bible isn't a history book, and if it was the word of "god", "god", doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about. lol
I'll repeat.. NO ONE, that met Jesus as a MAN, wrote a word about him.. That is completely relevant.. He wasn't alive, and the portions that discuss Jesus, are well known to be forged..
Daniel Eyre because, you replied, and what you said. . Is... wrong.. thanks.. lol
@@RyanBorger LOL! So from where did the Gospels come as they were all eye-witnesses? "Well known to be forged" - by whom? When? Try an argument rather than a hand-waive....not very scientific of you.
@@sandypidgeon4343 Umm hey stupid. The Gospels were written by anon authors LONG after Jesus supposedly "died". Did you think Jesus's disciples wrote them? Bwhahaha. Go ahead, look it up. I have read the Bible 7 times, and actually KNOW what I am talking about. You silly ignorant Christian nutters are a hoot. lol
What it boils down to is this guy will not believe any evidence because he doesn’t want Jesus to be real. The funny thing is he doesn’t believe “anything” in regards to Jesus!
Sidlow
There's nothing to believe. There is NO evidence for a jesus OUTSIDE the bible and believers. NONE!! There is NO evidence whatsoever!! NO record of his trial by the temple, NO record of his execution by the Romans, and they kept scrupulous records of who they killed! There were 40+ Roman and Greek historians in the Jerusalem area to study jewish cults, and they NEVER MENTION HIS NAME!! ONE guy who was anonymous wrote the jesus tale, and three other anonymous authors, OR THE SAME GUY, plagiarized him. And paul never met jesus, and NEVER mentioned ANY jesus on earth, NO miracles, NO disciples, NO ministry! The disciples themselves NEVER appear in history!! NO families, NO activities, NO report of their deaths!! They are FICTION, as was jesus.
rstevewarmorycom of course there are extra Biblical sources not to mention Jewish writings about Jesus being a sorcerer. To say that is ridiculous.
Sidlow
No there aren't, you're lying. The jewish writings relate to persons named jesus but at the wrong time period, or identified as a different jesus. This has been totally debunked. And no, no extra biblical sources. Josephus writes about other jesuses. And the christ passage has been proven to be a forgery by Eusebius a century later, and it does NOT appear in older copies! Origen, from whom Eusebius inherited his library, said that it was a shame Josephus had NOT written about any jesus.
You're a fool for your Christ. We get you.
This is the fun part. You expose the flaw in your argument. You WANT Jesus to be real, so you only give the most charitable interpretation to the claims. On the flip side, we WANT to believe true things and you object to the fact we treat your evidence with the exact skepticism you use in every other walk of life.
So I think the bias is exposed.
1 John 4:1-3 BELOVED, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 And every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof you have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
just because something is written in a book doesnt make it true, as the muslims believe in contrast to the bible, which automatically refutes both. No contemporary accounts of Jesus. Here is the Messiah, someone performing incredible miracles and not 1 person writes a single word about this guy, not 1?
ah yah - they did write about it - it's called....wait for it....THE NEW TESTAMENT
@Melvin Carter give me one source of jesus' existence at the time he was alive
@@sandypidgeon4343 that was written well after jesus was dead. Gospel of Mark, not written by mark, was the first gospel written approx 75 /78 CE
@@Augfordpdoggie ah no, Auggie the Doggie...(I do remember that cartoon - lol). Although I don't adhere to Markian priority, Mark was written in the early 60's when Peter was in Rome. Mark was his amanuensis or secretary. Peter dictated to Mark what appears in Mark. Peter was executed circa 67 AD. Kinda tough to write the words of a dead man, huh? None of the Gospels, nor ACTS, talks about the Temple destruction - would that have not been notable? All were written BEFORE that time. As well, all the Gospels were written on wax tablets and skins as Paul says in 1 Cor 15 "what I received I GAVE to you". These oral histories were attested to by groups over and over. Hope that explains it. GOD Bless.
@Melvin Carter none of those were alive at the time of jesus except for saul, and saul/ pauls supposed counter withjesus doesnt count because it is not independently verifed. And according to the bible no man can look upon the lord. So which is it? Believin st. Paul is like believing the follower of a political party. Like i said no contemporary evidence
Atheists , from a philosophical point makes you believe in so many unreasonable things just so everything has to fall into place for the argument against it that believing Jesus Christ is the son of God is the only reasonable thing to do.
Wostemes Queiroz
How is believing in an invisible being , and stories of a man who may or may not of existed as being the son of that invisible being reasonable ? How is that any more reasonable then believing in fairies ?
Yeshua is not the son of Yahweh, but it's okay to "believe" it. Doesn't make it a fact though.
Jesus existed, LOL .. many guys named Jesus have always existed, and some of those claim to be God. So what?
ah yah - that was relevant (eye roll)
We're all atheists. I'm just one more god ahead of you.
But man that vocab guy just put his fingers in his ears and went la la la. Refusing to listen to anything.
So atheist can believe in 1 god? Is that like a loophole or something?
@Oatmeal Richard Dawkins is your God. Bow down and obey. And listen to all the institutions that tell you what to believe. What a joke. Calling others indoctrinated while all your beliefs are mainstream 😂😂😂
If a Jesus character did exist there's no reliable way to know anything about him.
Ok vocab half the time you deflected and went off topic. U are just as bad as the kulltss are on this. David gave you some firm points and proof and you didn't consider it. And, that's a disingenuous dude.
This is a stupid debate. The earth is flat.
The flat earth model will disappear as soon as youtube starts demonetizing it. Nibiru and their fear mongerers disappeared after the first wave of youtube demonetization. Flat earth and a Jupiter sized planet X are scams abusing adsense along with the latest who were banned proclaiming GTA 6 unboxings.