Good God you produce Excellent content, sir. I absolutely LOVE your analytical nature - I haven't played rogue since 60 but still religiously follow your content because it's so often valuable knowledge for all raiders.
Happy to finally hear someone mention tailoring, prepped it for wrath after trying to calculate its benefits myself, and it seemed like a fun and viable buff - but everyone just kept saying Engi+JC/BS.. so I thank you for saving me from my worries! I can meme around as a rogue on a flying carpet without feeling too ridiculous now
I remember when WotLK hit, during Naxx, Honnor Amongs Thieves (cannot remember the name) talent, had an interaction that was bugged a bit, it should have worked only on crits, grant party rogues a combo point but it procced all the time. So you had 4 rogues in a party and infinite combo points, we just spammed eviscerate the entire fight.
Yeah, it was hilarious... It didn't last long but was insane to see the damage you could do on Thaddius. Haha! Yes it was named Honor Among Thieves. We called it the HAT spec
I personally like to point out that until Trial of the Crusade is released, sticking to Slow Fist weapon in MH and fast dagger in OH with Bleed combat spec is best bet for you because of low itemlevel of swords/axes compared to daggers and fist weapons, with rupture ticks able to crit and fist/daggers spec giving you crit.
im trying man but there are so many words to say I can't do it without a script! maybe I should get a auto-scroller application to read from instead of a notepad document :) then my eyes would stay in roughly the same spot
At the start of tbc i gave up on rogue . Since raid spots were limited switched to priest. Then phase 2 rolled around and i finally found a spot in a dad guild. Sunwell came around and i managed to get both glaives full t6 with immortal pants. Glad i didn't give up on rogue they finally back to top dps in wrath similar to classic wow
Shadowmeld would not trigger Overkill back in the day, and also would not even always remove your threat (can cause some funny or embarrassing deaths) Also when adding/removing glyph of sinister strike from Aldrianna's spreadsheet back in the day at BiS levels for combat rogue was around a 1k dps difference.
Out with the old and in with the new I say - I've researched Aldrianna's sheets for wrath, I've researched old EJ sheets for TBC, and Classic. My general impression is that they take a lot of "shortcuts" in calculation that make calculation easier but less accurate and less reflective of what actually happens in actual gameplay. These are just mathematical models and they can do some things well and other things poorly, as time grinds on we tend to improve the accuracy of these things.
How Shadowmeld works at least in private server and retail, is once trigger you can use stealth again, proccing your Overkill. Shadowmeld itself I don't think will proc Overkill.
After thinking a bit about Sinister Strike glyph, I am starting to somewhat agree that it’s not as valuable with the low armor pen, low crit Combat build. This is because until you reach roughly 70% passive armor pen and 50% crit, you will be prioritizing high point Ruptures. But in T10 with ICC gear and ToGC weapons, you’ll have enough armor pen and crit to start focusing more on your Eviscerates. A combat rogue in ICC gear will do significantly more DPS with Eviscerates and low point Ruptures. That’s where Glyph of Sinister Strike starts to become a key piece in your build, alongside Glyph of Eviscerate of course to ensure you’re getting those 12K Eviscerate crits.
Dude, EXCELLENT content. Love that you covered relevant topics and did comparisons between assassination and combat. I did hear from others that you should be assassination in the beginning of wrath for naxxramas and then later switch to combat for Ulduar and ICC? What are your thoughts on that?
Good guide, though I greatly disagree with your opinion on combats Sinister Strike glyph not being optimal. Having the chance at additional finishers under burst windows with AR, BF, and trinket procs is a likely chance and a guaranteed DPS increase. With phase 1 full BIS unbuffed you play around 30-35% crit, which with buffs increases to around 50%, and this increases across each phase meaning that you have essentially a 25% chance for your SS to grant additional combo points, 2 CP every 1 in 4 SS's will yield better rupture and slice and dice uptime, with an increased chance at finding space for Eviscerates between rotation (assuming you play blood splatter) which you previously wouldn't have a chance for at all if you didn't play with the glyph.
I agree with you that SS glyph shines during AR with trinket procs, but you use AR like once per fight and without passive arp and improved eviscerate it's still kinda lackluster if it does not crit. I think that you will generally eviscerate very rarely unless you have AR up or very lucky offhand energy procs/SS extra CP procs from crits.We are talking about t7 and that is when the glyph has the worst value possible, so the higher your crit and arp are the more value you will get from using it to get those extra eviscerates. I guess in t7 if u have the Embrace of the spider and you eviscerate during that you will get a lot of value if it crits. The question is how many extra eviscerates does the SS glyph provide you and what other glyph could possibly replace it and how does the dps of the other one compare to SS glyph? I really encourage you to just try dropping it for something else even if it seems silly just to really test it and feel it out yourself. He could be wrong about it of course but I think everyone should be open minded about trying different things.
Regarding the Glyph of SS, was your analysis for the first few tiers of the expansion or did it also include the latest tiers? I can imagine that Glyph of SS isn't as good near the start of the expac due to having less crit chance opposed to the later tiers where you'll be able to more frequently and consistently proc it. Even so, I'd love it if Glyph of SS wasn't meta. It feels very bad to have to take into consideration, especially when it comes to the whole 4-5 CP Eviscerate debacle. Would be nice to just go for 5 CP Eviscerates and not have to worry about wasting CPs.
WRT Sinister Strike Glyph. I believe you answered the question yourself, the other glyphs weren't available at the time. I very much remember running SS, Rupture and SnD glyphs early on in wotlk. You just end up doing a 4/4 rotation and 50% of the time you're getting an extended duration on SnD or Rupture. AR glyph is an extra 40-60 energy, whereas SS can give you far more across the duration of a fight. Correct me if your maths shows otherwise but that is what my memory is telling me
Sinister Strike, Rupture, Slice and Dice, Adrenaline Rush, Blade Flurry are all 3.0.2 version glyphs. I do think I could have explained this better in the video though. Big picture is that finishing moves aside from Slice and Dice are just not very good for combat - they aren't a large percentage of your damage and they aren't nearly as spectacular as the finishing move Envenom that Assassination gets to use. When you equip Glyph of Sinister Strike, you aren't increasing your Slice and Dice uptime - you already had enough points and energy to maintain that fully. You are rarely increasing Rupture uptime but usually you can maintain that fully without Sinister Strike glyph anyways. Sinister Strike glyph is giving you excess combo points that end up getting spent on your third best finishing move, Eviscerate, which just kindof sucks. Effectively Sinister Strike glyph is increases the number of Eviscerates you get to cast in a fight. Like most things yeah its a damage increase, but its just less of a damage increase than other things you can do instead.
@@SimonizeShow Agreed but what I am saying is that before the release of further glyphs, there is still none better for combat. If Blizzard does staged glyph releases then we would still end up using SS for a while, no?
Nope! It is publicly accessible right now. You can find it on the discord linked in the video description. I say the spreadsheet is in "BETA" mode because it is mostly functional but I'm still looking to catch and fix any small errors, and waiting to confirm mechanics in the wrath BETA.
After doing vanilla and tbc private servers for years leading up to classic, I just had no desire to play the game through again. But following the rogue meta, discords and your godly spreadsheet has been fun in its own right. Wrath though? Haven’t touched it in nearly 10 years. Might be time to sharpen my blades.
WOTLK private servers do exist, but they are best guesses at how mechanics were supposed to work back in original wrath. Blizzard builds the classic versions backwards from the modern WoW client which means there are plenty of opportunities for technical details and interactions to be different than they were originally. I'm not really concerned with "how things used to be", I'm concerned with "how things are" in Wrath Classic which is a new game.
Simon! I'm going to be levelling in a dungeon grind group the obvious spec I'd choose for levelling in this environment would be combat but im curious if you have any insight on that
Probably combat for dungeons I'd say - lots of good opportunities to use Blade Flurry and Killing Spree and Adrenaline for lots of bonus damage on short fights there.
Omfg I love you mate, been waiting for some relatable stuff to be sure what's best And thing about SS glyph is so insane, I been playing with it without any doubt on private server for a month, but now u say its kinda shit? U're the best
With 3.3.5 having double fast as “dead on arrival”, what about the envenom buff providing an increased 75% chance to apply instant poison? Would double fast daggers not be more worthwhile with keeping the uptime of this buff?
the wording is important here, it says "75% increased frequency of applying instant poison". its worth testing on the beta to be sure, but how I interpret that is a 1.4 speed weapon will default have 20% chance to trigger instant poison, with envenom buff up it is 0.2 * 1.75 = 0.35, 35% chance to trigger instant poison. maybe you mean more energy from focused attacks for more casts of envenom. if thats the case the answer is no, not really. the math is all laid out in another comment here but the TLDR is that over THREE MINUTES of continuous attacking, you're getting about 45 more energy for using a 1.4 weapon instead of a 1.8 weapon with 45% crit chance. Not even a single mutilate worth of energy in a 3 minute time frame. It will change your average envenom uptime a tiny bit but I think most people grossly over estimate how significant of a change it really is.
I went combat but time to swap. I don't have the $$$$ to duel spec yet. Thanks for the info. Edit: Days later. Holy shit! This spec is awesome. 300+ dps increase from my combat spec.
Enchanting, Inscription, Alchemy, and Leatherworking all give some equivalent form of +80 attack power by offering a enchant that is +80 ap better than the alternative. Its just weaker than the bonus provided by JC or Tailoring. Not significantly but its pretty plain to see that 3x +68ap gems compared to 3x +40ap epic gems is +84ap, or if you compare it to rare gems, its 3x +68ap ap gems compared to 3x +32ap gems is +108 attack power. As long as your 2nd profession (1st in engineering) is providing some kind of combat benefit, its really not a big deal what it is. People overhype optimal professions way way too much.
Orc will line up better for your cooldowns and that's what I'll be running. But the change for Trolls to be a flat 20% at all times makes its very attractive for Mutilate rogue as Haste is a high priority Stat for them. The different is probably negligible but are vastly better than undead, blood elf for sure
Nice video as always. I would like to see a video comparing gear fro mutilate and combat. I want to play mutilate rogue but my have to play combat for my guild. Would it be easy to switch or is the gearing very different for both spec ?
A lot of the armor choices are identical, generally you are just gemming for much more expertise on mutilate compared to combat since you don't get it for free from talents. Weapons are obviously different too.
Thoughts on LW? ive always used it in classic and TBC currently, is engi only worth it for the raiding to pump out the damages more? or is LW just not worth cause of the need to farm and get lucky with patterns and such and just hoping the RNG gods are kind and u win the roll...Loving your videos, im currently engi and LW on tbc so i can do a bit more damages and its thanks to your vids, also improving on gear choices n stuff, keep up the awesome work dude
2 года назад
Engi is too good not to have you get an engi only haste proc on gloves and jc is what min maxers pair with it cause you get access jc only epic gems the 2 paired together are best for highest dps
@@brandonkruse6412 why go leatherworking then? Have someone else craft it for you. Generally guilds have a token lw/bs to soak recipes and craft for the guild. The materials are also boe so you can trade them. Going LW if you're not the token crafter in lieu of jc/engi is mediocre.
@@loatheme6610 Why go LW over Engi because you can just have your guild craft for you? I think you answered your question for you man. If everyone went JC/Engi like people recommend, you’ll have nobody that can craft potions, armor/weapons and glyphs. Al professions have level 400 required buffs, enchants and benefits. Sure, JC/Engi is technically BiS for dps but you can always switch to it for endgame raiding. I recommend LW/BS/Tailoring or Herb/Inscription early until ICC because: You’ll make a ton of money, a ton of gear for yourself and guildies, much of your BiS or pre-ICC BiS comes from craftable gear (like the 264 rogue expertise chest) and if you want to stick with LW for endgame (same applies to BS/Tailor) there are lots of level 400 profession enchants for your gear that you can’t use without having the profession. Besides, JC/Engi is only really needed for doing ICC, RS and maybe a couple of fights in Ulduar that rocket boots will help you get out of ground danger. *But if you are a rogue, you do NOT need Engineering because Haste is a mediocre stat with armor penetration gear and you have the Sprint ability that can be improved with talents down to 60 seconds*
@@brandonkruse6412 I agree with Engi not being as OP as it is for some other melee, as Rogue have more than enough ways to get out of trouble with their base toolkit. Paladins, DKs, Shamans, Warlocks, Priests, Hunters (to some degree) and Warriors (to some degree) all lack mobility to deal with mechanics/reposition. Boot tinker (rocket/nitro) has significantly higher value for these than Rogues. Honestly wouldn’t be surprised to see BS or Tailoring joining JC as the best Rogue profession, over Engineering.
I seriously love informative videos like this! Good job But i totally got massive blue balls waiting for you to talk about Subtlety Rogues and PvP PLEASE MAKE A VIDEO FOR US PVP ROGUES AND Subtlety Spec!
I love your content. Keep going!! I"m so happy u got a set of warglaives, its so well deserved man!! i have one question, can u give me the name of the first song ?
I don't recall the name of the track, but it all comes from Streambeats.com Harris Heller who produces music and releases it copyright-free for streamers and content creators to use without fear of DMCA takedowns. VERY cool stuff!
thats true only for instant poison and wound poison. deadly poison remains a fixed % chance to trigger per hit regardless of the speed of the weapon it is applied to so faster weapon = more deadly procs. since deadly has the nice effect of triggering the other weapon's poison, each time deadly procs when it is at 5 stacks its basically just giving you an instant poison proc.
my only guess is the additional damage on mutilate for the MH component somehow marginally outweighs the additional energy gain opportunities from the MH swings??
whenever you cast a weapon-based ability like Mutilate or Envenom, you get a chance to trigger your MH weapon's poison. it uses the same chance as it has for auto attacks. Since the number of mutilate and envenoms you do is roughly the same regardless of fast/slow weapon, slow is preferable because it gives higher chance per mutilate and higher chance per envenom to get a poison proc. the procs from auto attacks are roughly equal regardless of fast or slow weapon. energy gain differences of using a 1.8 instead of a 1.4 are very marginal and I wrote up the math in another comment here (thread under a comment by Rugs). over three minutes of attacking, the 1.4 weapon gains roughly 45 more energy than the 1.8 weapon would - not even a single mutilate worth of energy difference in three whole minutes of attacking.
The saddest part about classic wotlk is that people wont get to enjoy the broken HAT. This is what made rogues so incredibly strong for the longest time. Later, at least from my memory, rogues were still good, but other classes outdamaged them.
Nah, rogues were excellent through the expansion, HAT was broken and I dont thin many people considered it seriously, it was just something to fool around with for a bit.
mostly bad but it has more to do with the best weapons in each phase not being maces than the talent being weaker. you typically just have higher ilvl swords/fist/dagger available and the higher weapon dps and increased stats are super important.
I agree that assassination becomes very strong but I 100% believe you will be surprised combat will be just as much. in the later patches combat gets a good number of buffs and that's why people switch. Rupture now crits, armor pen rating % is buffed. With instant poison new proc rate MH will hit more often plus slice and dice gains another 10% speed. As for mutilate it gets a nerf from 50% dmg increase to poison targets to 20%. So we shall see! anyways great guide looking forward to Wrath!
I think maybe you are misunderstanding how classic vanilla and classic TBC have worked and how classic wrath will work - the whole expansion is played on the balance patch of the final patch of that expansion. Talents, spells, and the vast majority of items generally don't change what they do throughout the classic expansion. Phase 1 Classic TBC with Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon was played with the Patch 2.4 (sunwell patch) versions of all the different talents, spells, and items. They just unlock the different raids with each phase so players gain access to different items and content, but talents and spells and item powers stay the same. I would be very very surprised if they changed this model for Wrath Classic. They even SAID in the announcement stream for wrath classic that "3.3.5 is the patch" for wrath classic.
@@SimonizeShow I think the argument is that starting with 3.3.5 favors combat more than it favors assassination, although I do think assassination will be the superior spec in t7 regardless.
@@SimonizeShow I agree with you. But like the other person commented I was stating that since all specs and spells are balance to 3.3.5 that each patch prior buffed combat and had small nerfs to assassination. So my argument is combat could be just as powerful as assassination from the get go taking into account the buffs it received since we are starting with 3.3.5 patch which takes into consideration of all the needs and buffs for balance.
You go daggers and spam backstab/ambush/hemo if you can't reach their back. If you want to go sword, you have to go a "hybrid" specc where you get hemorrhage (but not Shadow dance), and then go into the assassination tree for cold blood.
It is definitely not expired - thats the same "never expires" link that I have in all my videos - I just re-checked and re-created a "never expires" link from discord and it gives the exact same URL. Its possible that clicking it from your browser isn't working because of an ad blocker or something similar. Try opening discord and putting the url into the discord app instead.
Quicker to level as combat, due to larger range of weapons available (daggers are few & far between vs swords, maces, axes, occasional fists). Plus better defensive & multi-target capabilities reducing the likelihood of avoidable ghost runs. But assassination would be my choice at max level (PvE)
WOTLK was the perfect Rogue and it was true to it's tenant, we were glass cannons, able to dish out the punishment but unable to take punishment, hence the reason for being able to vanish to lick our wounds and then come back into the fight to finish them off and another reset in order to escape with our lives if needed. After WOTLK Rogues suffered for 4 expansions. They at add insult to injury they introduce Demon Hunters which is an over powered hero class with Rogue abilities and then some. We don't have the ability to detect and disarm traps, I guess we are no longer master thieves.
Orcs will always be best physical dps because of AP racial but the expertise bonus to axes is actually quite insignificant because the stat is on several of your tier 9/10 pieces as well as your BiS leather working chest.
@@NazSef Attack Power does scale, you have DK/Hunter aura, crit damage, etc. You’re also not considering that BiS weapons in the last two raids are axes, too. +axe expertise is a big one late game. Tbh it’s a *very* small difference between the two. Combat benefits from Orc most of the expansion, if you’re talking about absolute absolute BiS, you’ve beaten the game and it doesn’t matter.
@@brandonkruse6412 The point is that the AP the orc racial offers becomes a smaller percentage of your total AP as tiers are increased, thus it makes a lower impact each time. I was replying to you specifically saying "Orcs will always be best physical dps because of AP racial" and this blanket statement is misleading. Especially for those planning on sticking to daggers, troll is the winner. But as far as sticking to the OP's question, yes, Orc it is.
Really mutilate will be forever better than combat? I was under the impression after some time Combat would outclass Ass rogues in later phases. How big of a difference in dps is there between Mutilate and Combat but ICC?
Correct. Assasin starts out better than Combat because Combat needs armor penetration to scale. You’ll start to see Combat taking over in Ulduar with better trinkets and Swords/Axes being available, as well as more arp on leather gear.
@@brandonkruse6412 On the sim sheet in all phases it shows Mutilate doing more damage than combat. Sorry should have specified why I asked the question. Unless im understanding it wrong.
@@UserName-ei7dk I wouldn’t even bother simming man, no rogues play Assasination in ICC because armor penetration scales damage further than Assasin can go.
Sim is probably for pure patchwork style encounter. Mutilate on a stand still for the entire fight and smash face will be better. However the gap shinks greatly with gear. Couple that with the fact that any movement, downtime, target swapping etc will hurt assassination more. In ICC you might lose as combat to a mutilate rogue on festergut, that's about it
I swear to god I walked in the bedroom like 2 days ago and my wife had on the new Simon video and I was like wtf why you watching this and she said “it was on recommended and I liked his hat"
look at warmane forums.. people have been working on rogue troubleshooting for about 10 years now.. you may be surprised by what you find. i have been playing on warmane for about 9 years as primarily a rogue in wrath.. first phase yes we are strong with min/maxing.. but we drop off when other classes start to get arp. Warlocks as well.. start strong... dip off..
with 3.3.5 version of talents and poisons fast/fast weapon meta is dead - you will want one fast, one slow. in *original* wrath with patch 3.0, poisons and talents were different, and this made the fast/fast weapon choice a good idea. fast/fast is NOT IDEAL with 3.3.5 version of talents and poisons.
@@SimonizeShow yeah i saw that video you only talking about dps gain from the passive the profession has, as a lw you can make armor for yourself as rogue, like i did in tbc p1 primal strike set, and belt of deep shadow which i use 3 phases cause i never get 100death, and the newest sun and shadow chest from sw drop.
most of the LW gear that matters is BoE so you don't have to be LW to use it. LW get to craft a lower cost version of the leg enhancement that only they get to use, so that is a nice perk.
Simon the following is meant as constructive criticism, your videos content is amazing, your spreadsheets are amazing, and talking with you has always been a blast But my friend You always look so angry in your videos Now i cant see the behind the scenes so i dont know how many takes you record, i dont know when you record, and i dont eant to see you full of fake enthusiasm like so many youtubers, but maybe try some things and experiment Maybe improv the script with only some small notes on specific numbers to read off of Maybe try changing the lighting around your office so that differant parts of you are lit up in ways to better contour your face? Just some ideas, and i mean this all from a place of love
![Kodak Black - Sharp Vibes [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oEV0OoLJeIs/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm so glad to be a rogue main because of your content
Great vid Simon! You’re a beast as always! Keep doing gods work my friend!
Thanks! Glad you liked it!
Good God you produce Excellent content, sir.
I absolutely LOVE your analytical nature - I haven't played rogue since 60 but still religiously follow your content because it's so often valuable knowledge for all raiders.
Your channel is impressive dude. Is anyone else producing content of this quality for another class?
Happy to finally hear someone mention tailoring, prepped it for wrath after trying to calculate its benefits myself, and it seemed like a fun and viable buff - but everyone just kept saying Engi+JC/BS.. so I thank you for saving me from my worries! I can meme around as a rogue on a flying carpet without feeling too ridiculous now
oh damn i forgot all about the flying carpet im hella going tailoring now!!
You are very concise and easy to understand. And organized. Easy sub!
I remember when WotLK hit, during Naxx, Honnor Amongs Thieves (cannot remember the name) talent, had an interaction that was bugged a bit, it should have worked only on crits, grant party rogues a combo point but it procced all the time. So you had 4 rogues in a party and infinite combo points, we just spammed eviscerate the entire fight.
Yeah, it was hilarious... It didn't last long but was insane to see the damage you could do on Thaddius. Haha! Yes it was named Honor Among Thieves. We called it the HAT spec
..you deserve more subs. Your info and knowledge is top notch. Keep it up man
thank you!!
Fantastic video. Best rogue channel around. Thanks for the hard work
Glad you enjoy it!
I personally like to point out that until Trial of the Crusade is released, sticking to Slow Fist weapon in MH and fast dagger in OH with Bleed combat spec is best bet for you because of low itemlevel of swords/axes compared to daggers and fist weapons, with rupture ticks able to crit and fist/daggers spec giving you crit.
bro, ive never seen anyone else doing so much math. Awesome content, insta subscribe
Man I'm so happy I found you
awesome informative video! I dig the background music!
I definetly recall the SS glyph being used back in the day. Very interested to see how that one plays out.
I am quite new to the game but do you think assassination is better than combat for earlier levels? Thanks from noob
i cant wait for all of your wrath content
Mutilate apply both poisons and when deadly poison is applied it also procs the other weapon’s poison
I have wrath videos on channel from OG as a mutilate rogue. Vanish does not trigger potion reset, it does trigger overkill.
lol the eyes reading the script
im trying man but there are so many words to say I can't do it without a script! maybe I should get a auto-scroller application to read from instead of a notepad document :) then my eyes would stay in roughly the same spot
At the start of tbc i gave up on rogue . Since raid spots were limited switched to priest. Then phase 2 rolled around and i finally found a spot in a dad guild. Sunwell came around and i managed to get both glaives full t6 with immortal pants. Glad i didn't give up on rogue they finally back to top dps in wrath similar to classic wow
hell yeah! thats great!
my man you are just a beast with content - its getting stuffy in this wotlk waiting room >.
Shadowmeld would not trigger Overkill back in the day, and also would not even always remove your threat (can cause some funny or embarrassing deaths)
Also when adding/removing glyph of sinister strike from Aldrianna's spreadsheet back in the day at BiS levels for combat rogue was around a 1k dps difference.
Out with the old and in with the new I say - I've researched Aldrianna's sheets for wrath, I've researched old EJ sheets for TBC, and Classic. My general impression is that they take a lot of "shortcuts" in calculation that make calculation easier but less accurate and less reflective of what actually happens in actual gameplay. These are just mathematical models and they can do some things well and other things poorly, as time grinds on we tend to improve the accuracy of these things.
How Shadowmeld works at least in private server and retail, is once trigger you can use stealth again, proccing your Overkill. Shadowmeld itself I don't think will proc Overkill.
My hero!
thanks for the info simonized, im staying rogue after thinking about it.u are the best
:)
First time rogue main in wotlk classic, great video man glad I found your channel! Very informative.
Great video as always! Keeps me hyped for WoTLK classic!
I remember raiding on my rogue back in WOTLK and was frequently top damage so looking forward to it!!
Let's gooo! I'm tired of feeling useless, and want to have fun again.
going from "ugh we already have one rogue can we really carry two?" to "we only have 2 rogues I wish we had 3 or 4 in this raid" gonna be lit
After thinking a bit about Sinister Strike glyph, I am starting to somewhat agree that it’s not as valuable with the low armor pen, low crit Combat build.
This is because until you reach roughly 70% passive armor pen and 50% crit, you will be prioritizing high point Ruptures. But in T10 with ICC gear and ToGC weapons, you’ll have enough armor pen and crit to start focusing more on your Eviscerates.
A combat rogue in ICC gear will do significantly more DPS with Eviscerates and low point Ruptures. That’s where Glyph of Sinister Strike starts to become a key piece in your build, alongside Glyph of Eviscerate of course to ensure you’re getting those 12K Eviscerate crits.
Thanks man this was a good clear video.
Glad you liked it!
Great video as always simon!
Glad you enjoyed it
Dude, EXCELLENT content. Love that you covered relevant topics and did comparisons between assassination and combat. I did hear from others that you should be assassination in the beginning of wrath for naxxramas and then later switch to combat for Ulduar and ICC? What are your thoughts on that?
Insane video as allways, top stuff
Nice Bro,you good!! 👏
thanks for this video-guide
Love the content!!
Shadow meld does make you leave combat that was a huge thing about nelf druids, meld, cat stealth
yeah well it doesnt do that when engaged with a raid boss
Good guide, though I greatly disagree with your opinion on combats Sinister Strike glyph not being optimal. Having the chance at additional finishers under burst windows with AR, BF, and trinket procs is a likely chance and a guaranteed DPS increase. With phase 1 full BIS unbuffed you play around 30-35% crit, which with buffs increases to around 50%, and this increases across each phase meaning that you have essentially a 25% chance for your SS to grant additional combo points, 2 CP every 1 in 4 SS's will yield better rupture and slice and dice uptime, with an increased chance at finding space for Eviscerates between rotation (assuming you play blood splatter) which you previously wouldn't have a chance for at all if you didn't play with the glyph.
I agree with you that SS glyph shines during AR with trinket procs, but you use AR like once per fight and without passive arp and improved eviscerate it's still kinda lackluster if it does not crit. I think that you will generally eviscerate very rarely unless you have AR up or very lucky offhand energy procs/SS extra CP procs from crits.We are talking about t7 and that is when the glyph has the worst value possible, so the higher your crit and arp are the more value you will get from using it to get those extra eviscerates. I guess in t7 if u have the Embrace of the spider and you eviscerate during that you will get a lot of value if it crits. The question is how many extra eviscerates does the SS glyph provide you and what other glyph could possibly replace it and how does the dps of the other one compare to SS glyph? I really encourage you to just try dropping it for something else even if it seems silly just to really test it and feel it out yourself. He could be wrong about it of course but I think everyone should be open minded about trying different things.
Regarding the Glyph of SS, was your analysis for the first few tiers of the expansion or did it also include the latest tiers? I can imagine that Glyph of SS isn't as good near the start of the expac due to having less crit chance opposed to the later tiers where you'll be able to more frequently and consistently proc it.
Even so, I'd love it if Glyph of SS wasn't meta. It feels very bad to have to take into consideration, especially when it comes to the whole 4-5 CP Eviscerate debacle. Would be nice to just go for 5 CP Eviscerates and not have to worry about wasting CPs.
WRT Sinister Strike Glyph. I believe you answered the question yourself, the other glyphs weren't available at the time. I very much remember running SS, Rupture and SnD glyphs early on in wotlk. You just end up doing a 4/4 rotation and 50% of the time you're getting an extended duration on SnD or Rupture. AR glyph is an extra 40-60 energy, whereas SS can give you far more across the duration of a fight. Correct me if your maths shows otherwise but that is what my memory is telling me
Sinister Strike, Rupture, Slice and Dice, Adrenaline Rush, Blade Flurry are all 3.0.2 version glyphs.
I do think I could have explained this better in the video though. Big picture is that finishing moves aside from Slice and Dice are just not very good for combat - they aren't a large percentage of your damage and they aren't nearly as spectacular as the finishing move Envenom that Assassination gets to use. When you equip Glyph of Sinister Strike, you aren't increasing your Slice and Dice uptime - you already had enough points and energy to maintain that fully. You are rarely increasing Rupture uptime but usually you can maintain that fully without Sinister Strike glyph anyways. Sinister Strike glyph is giving you excess combo points that end up getting spent on your third best finishing move, Eviscerate, which just kindof sucks. Effectively Sinister Strike glyph is increases the number of Eviscerates you get to cast in a fight. Like most things yeah its a damage increase, but its just less of a damage increase than other things you can do instead.
@@SimonizeShow Agreed but what I am saying is that before the release of further glyphs, there is still none better for combat. If Blizzard does staged glyph releases then we would still end up using SS for a while, no?
@@chameleonedm yes, i think so. without access to 3.1 glyphs i think combat uses Sinister Strike glyph.
@@SimonizeShow ok cool we’re aligned then, great work as ever mate
great content as usual and very good questions for BETA. did i get it right that you'll keep Wrath spreadsheet private at least till BETA/Launch?
Nope! It is publicly accessible right now. You can find it on the discord linked in the video description. I say the spreadsheet is in "BETA" mode because it is mostly functional but I'm still looking to catch and fix any small errors, and waiting to confirm mechanics in the wrath BETA.
Thanks dude, can't wait to be a yellow boy in wrath classic
SAME!
After doing vanilla and tbc private servers for years leading up to classic, I just had no desire to play the game through again. But following the rogue meta, discords and your godly spreadsheet has been fun in its own right.
Wrath though? Haven’t touched it in nearly 10 years. Might be time to sharpen my blades.
Hell yeah! Time to BLAST!
@@SimonizeShow Mutilate go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Don't we have lk private servers to check the questions at the end?
WOTLK private servers do exist, but they are best guesses at how mechanics were supposed to work back in original wrath. Blizzard builds the classic versions backwards from the modern WoW client which means there are plenty of opportunities for technical details and interactions to be different than they were originally. I'm not really concerned with "how things used to be", I'm concerned with "how things are" in Wrath Classic which is a new game.
JC / Engineering is BIS just do it guys, you’ll thank me with rocket boots, haste to gloves
Simon! I'm going to be levelling in a dungeon grind group the obvious spec I'd choose for levelling in this environment would be combat but im curious if you have any insight on that
Probably combat for dungeons I'd say - lots of good opportunities to use Blade Flurry and Killing Spree and Adrenaline for lots of bonus damage on short fights there.
Omfg I love you mate, been waiting for some relatable stuff to be sure what's best
And thing about SS glyph is so insane, I been playing with it without any doubt on private server for a month, but now u say its kinda shit? U're the best
I double checked the code in the spreadsheet relating to that glyph a bunch of times to be extra sure.
very informative 👍
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks !
Welcome!
Thanks for the video ! What about Tear of Bitter Anguish for trinket slot (PvE Muti spec) ? Is it worth farming it ?
I wouldn't bother - definitely not as good as Mirror and Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Great video
With 3.3.5 having double fast as “dead on arrival”, what about the envenom buff providing an increased 75% chance to apply instant poison? Would double fast daggers not be more worthwhile with keeping the uptime of this buff?
the wording is important here, it says "75% increased frequency of applying instant poison". its worth testing on the beta to be sure, but how I interpret that is a 1.4 speed weapon will default have 20% chance to trigger instant poison, with envenom buff up it is 0.2 * 1.75 = 0.35, 35% chance to trigger instant poison.
maybe you mean more energy from focused attacks for more casts of envenom. if thats the case the answer is no, not really. the math is all laid out in another comment here but the TLDR is that over THREE MINUTES of continuous attacking, you're getting about 45 more energy for using a 1.4 weapon instead of a 1.8 weapon with 45% crit chance. Not even a single mutilate worth of energy in a 3 minute time frame. It will change your average envenom uptime a tiny bit but I think most people grossly over estimate how significant of a change it really is.
I went combat but time to swap. I don't have the $$$$ to duel spec yet. Thanks for the info. Edit: Days later. Holy shit! This spec is awesome. 300+ dps increase from my combat spec.
Any update on whether shadowmeld triggers overkill or not?
shadowmeld does not trigger overkill.
How far behind JC/Tailoring is Inscription in your opinion?
Similar thoughtprocess in adding AP for poison damage but how does it hold up?
Enchanting, Inscription, Alchemy, and Leatherworking all give some equivalent form of +80 attack power by offering a enchant that is +80 ap better than the alternative. Its just weaker than the bonus provided by JC or Tailoring. Not significantly but its pretty plain to see that 3x +68ap gems compared to 3x +40ap epic gems is +84ap, or if you compare it to rare gems, its 3x +68ap ap gems compared to 3x +32ap gems is +108 attack power.
As long as your 2nd profession (1st in engineering) is providing some kind of combat benefit, its really not a big deal what it is. People overhype optimal professions way way too much.
leaving stealth and leaving combat are entirely different things. and if u have engaged the boss and your party is in combat, you aint leaving combat
Thx for the video. Is there a preferrable race for rouges as horde?
Orc will line up better for your cooldowns and that's what I'll be running. But the change for Trolls to be a flat 20% at all times makes its very attractive for Mutilate rogue as Haste is a high priority Stat for them. The different is probably negligible but are vastly better than undead, blood elf for sure
You read the notes, nice
Nice video as always. I would like to see a video comparing gear fro mutilate and combat.
I want to play mutilate rogue but my have to play combat for my guild. Would it be easy to switch or is the gearing very different for both spec ?
A lot of the armor choices are identical, generally you are just gemming for much more expertise on mutilate compared to combat since you don't get it for free from talents.
Weapons are obviously different too.
@@SimonizeShow Hey Thanks for the answers that helps to know.
Best race for Assassination rogue? Human, Gnome, or NE?
Specific question - is Assassination viable for PvP with purely PvP gear (no Raid gear whatsoever)?
I'm sorry PVP is really not my forte - I'm a PvE specialist.
Thoughts on LW? ive always used it in classic and TBC currently, is engi only worth it for the raiding to pump out the damages more? or is LW just not worth cause of the need to farm and get lucky with patterns and such and just hoping the RNG gods are kind and u win the roll...Loving your videos, im currently engi and LW on tbc so i can do a bit more damages and its thanks to your vids, also improving on gear choices n stuff, keep up the awesome work dude
Engi is too good not to have you get an engi only haste proc on gloves and jc is what min maxers pair with it cause you get access jc only epic gems the 2 paired together are best for highest dps
LW is quite valuable for rogue, your BiS chest is craftable as is several good boe 264 leather pieces that become available the in ICC phase.
@@brandonkruse6412 why go leatherworking then? Have someone else craft it for you. Generally guilds have a token lw/bs to soak recipes and craft for the guild. The materials are also boe so you can trade them. Going LW if you're not the token crafter in lieu of jc/engi is mediocre.
@@loatheme6610 Why go LW over Engi because you can just have your guild craft for you? I think you answered your question for you man.
If everyone went JC/Engi like people recommend, you’ll have nobody that can craft potions, armor/weapons and glyphs. Al professions have level 400 required buffs, enchants and benefits.
Sure, JC/Engi is technically BiS for dps but you can always switch to it for endgame raiding. I recommend LW/BS/Tailoring or Herb/Inscription early until ICC because:
You’ll make a ton of money, a ton of gear for yourself and guildies, much of your BiS or pre-ICC BiS comes from craftable gear (like the 264 rogue expertise chest)
and if you want to stick with LW for endgame (same applies to BS/Tailor) there are lots of level 400 profession enchants for your gear that you can’t use without having the profession.
Besides, JC/Engi is only really needed for doing ICC, RS and maybe a couple of fights in Ulduar that rocket boots will help you get out of ground danger.
*But if you are a rogue, you do NOT need Engineering because Haste is a mediocre stat with armor penetration gear and you have the Sprint ability that can be improved with talents down to 60 seconds*
@@brandonkruse6412 I agree with Engi not being as OP as it is for some other melee, as Rogue have more than enough ways to get out of trouble with their base toolkit.
Paladins, DKs, Shamans, Warlocks, Priests, Hunters (to some degree) and Warriors (to some degree) all lack mobility to deal with mechanics/reposition. Boot tinker (rocket/nitro) has significantly higher value for these than Rogues.
Honestly wouldn’t be surprised to see BS or Tailoring joining JC as the best Rogue profession, over Engineering.
I seriously love informative videos like this! Good job
But i totally got massive blue balls waiting for you to talk about Subtlety Rogues and PvP
PLEASE MAKE A VIDEO FOR US PVP ROGUES AND Subtlety Spec!
Wooo WotLK hype! No more struggle street for rogues. Gigachad class doing gigachad damage again.
Thank you based Simon
You're welcome!
I love your content. Keep going!! I"m so happy u got a set of warglaives, its so well deserved man!! i have one question, can u give me the name of the first song ?
I don't recall the name of the track, but it all comes from Streambeats.com Harris Heller who produces music and releases it copyright-free for streamers and content creators to use without fear of DMCA takedowns. VERY cool stuff!
did focused attacks ever give 3 energy?
does this apply to private servers like warmane at 3.3.5?
nice karl marx book
ty
im confused, if proc chance is normalized with poisons, wouldnt we want two slow daggers to maximize damage?
thats true only for instant poison and wound poison. deadly poison remains a fixed % chance to trigger per hit regardless of the speed of the weapon it is applied to so faster weapon = more deadly procs. since deadly has the nice effect of triggering the other weapon's poison, each time deadly procs when it is at 5 stacks its basically just giving you an instant poison proc.
@@SimonizeShow ooh ok, thank you.
Can I macro troll 20% racial haste and slice and dice together for 60% haste?
If the IP percent chance is roughly egualized with weapon speed. Why is a 1.8 in MH better?
my only guess is the additional damage on mutilate for the MH component somehow marginally outweighs the additional energy gain opportunities from the MH swings??
whenever you cast a weapon-based ability like Mutilate or Envenom, you get a chance to trigger your MH weapon's poison. it uses the same chance as it has for auto attacks. Since the number of mutilate and envenoms you do is roughly the same regardless of fast/slow weapon, slow is preferable because it gives higher chance per mutilate and higher chance per envenom to get a poison proc.
the procs from auto attacks are roughly equal regardless of fast or slow weapon.
energy gain differences of using a 1.8 instead of a 1.4 are very marginal and I wrote up the math in another comment here (thread under a comment by Rugs). over three minutes of attacking, the 1.4 weapon gains roughly 45 more energy than the 1.8 weapon would - not even a single mutilate worth of energy difference in three whole minutes of attacking.
It’s not.
since everyones being convinced to go jc i can see tailoring being a bigger money maker as well
Please talk about PvP Rogue @ WOTLK at some point! Amazing content!
I'm sorry PVP is really not my forte - I'm a PvE specialist.
The saddest part about classic wotlk is that people wont get to enjoy the broken HAT. This is what made rogues so incredibly strong for the longest time. Later, at least from my memory, rogues were still good, but other classes outdamaged them.
I remember that back in the day.. ahhh it was great. 5 rogues in a group, pressing 5 point eviscerate every single global... very balanced for sure
Nah, rogues were excellent through the expansion, HAT was broken and I dont thin many people considered it seriously, it was just something to fool around with for a bit.
How was combat maces in wrath, they got changed to 15% armor pen
mostly bad but it has more to do with the best weapons in each phase not being maces than the talent being weaker. you typically just have higher ilvl swords/fist/dagger available and the higher weapon dps and increased stats are super important.
I agree that assassination becomes very strong but I 100% believe you will be surprised combat will be just as much. in the later patches combat gets a good number of buffs and that's why people switch. Rupture now crits, armor pen rating % is buffed. With instant poison new proc rate MH will hit more often plus slice and dice gains another 10% speed. As for mutilate it gets a nerf from 50% dmg increase to poison targets to 20%. So we shall see! anyways great guide looking forward to Wrath!
I think maybe you are misunderstanding how classic vanilla and classic TBC have worked and how classic wrath will work - the whole expansion is played on the balance patch of the final patch of that expansion.
Talents, spells, and the vast majority of items generally don't change what they do throughout the classic expansion. Phase 1 Classic TBC with Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon was played with the Patch 2.4 (sunwell patch) versions of all the different talents, spells, and items. They just unlock the different raids with each phase so players gain access to different items and content, but talents and spells and item powers stay the same.
I would be very very surprised if they changed this model for Wrath Classic. They even SAID in the announcement stream for wrath classic that "3.3.5 is the patch" for wrath classic.
@@SimonizeShow I think the argument is that starting with 3.3.5 favors combat more than it favors assassination, although I do think assassination will be the superior spec in t7 regardless.
@@SimonizeShow I agree with you. But like the other person commented I was stating that since all specs and spells are balance to 3.3.5 that each patch prior buffed combat and had small nerfs to assassination. So my argument is combat could be just as powerful as assassination from the get go taking into account the buffs it received since we are starting with 3.3.5 patch which takes into consideration of all the needs and buffs for balance.
straight to the points no bullshit
where i can download this Wrath Rogue Sheet Beta?
discord linked in video description
Did you get Beta access?
No
Question: The PvP spec of Subtlety is still played with Maces/Swords or now that you have Shadow Dance you can go Daggers to spam Ambush ?
You go daggers and spam backstab/ambush/hemo if you can't reach their back. If you want to go sword, you have to go a "hybrid" specc where you get hemorrhage (but not Shadow dance), and then go into the assassination tree for cold blood.
@@Zedd550 nice thank you ! Was always a fan of Dagger Rogue pvp fantasy wise
Nooo , your discord link is expired
could you please link another one? :)
It is definitely not expired - thats the same "never expires" link that I have in all my videos - I just re-checked and re-created a "never expires" link from discord and it gives the exact same URL. Its possible that clicking it from your browser isn't working because of an ad blocker or something similar. Try opening discord and putting the url into the discord app instead.
SIMONIZE OWNS
well heck im glad you think so :)
Is assassination good for levelling guys? Someone help 😢
Quicker to level as combat, due to larger range of weapons available (daggers are few & far between vs swords, maces, axes, occasional fists). Plus better defensive & multi-target capabilities reducing the likelihood of avoidable ghost runs.
But assassination would be my choice at max level (PvE)
Mirror of truth is not bis in phase one, you can get FFF from OS 25 for consistent +320 attack power
okay dude thats like your opinion, man. i disagree.
@@SimonizeShow So what's the difference in dps between mirror and fff in your chart?
Anybody know if Elemenrtal sharpening stones work in wrath ?
I assume they do - but there is no shot that they are worth using over poisons.
Shadowmourn = END!
WOTLK was the perfect Rogue and it was true to it's tenant, we were glass cannons, able to dish out the punishment but unable to take punishment, hence the reason for being able to vanish to lick our wounds and then come back into the fight to finish them off and another reset in order to escape with our lives if needed.
After WOTLK Rogues suffered for 4 expansions. They at add insult to injury they introduce Demon Hunters which is an over powered hero class with Rogue abilities and then some.
We don't have the ability to detect and disarm traps, I guess we are no longer master thieves.
any guesses if orcs with axes will have any value?
Yep! In phase 4 the bis combat weapons are both axes, so orcs are pretty nice there.
Orcs will always be best physical dps because of AP racial but the expertise bonus to axes is actually quite insignificant because the stat is on several of your tier 9/10 pieces as well as your BiS leather working chest.
@@brandonkruse6412 This might be true early on, but the AP racial doesn't scale, where the troll's racial is % based, thus it becomes stronger.
@@NazSef Attack Power does scale, you have DK/Hunter aura, crit damage, etc.
You’re also not considering that BiS weapons in the last two raids are axes, too. +axe expertise is a big one late game.
Tbh it’s a *very* small difference between the two. Combat benefits from Orc most of the expansion, if you’re talking about absolute absolute BiS, you’ve beaten the game and it doesn’t matter.
@@brandonkruse6412 The point is that the AP the orc racial offers becomes a smaller percentage of your total AP as tiers are increased, thus it makes a lower impact each time. I was replying to you specifically saying "Orcs will always be best physical dps because of AP racial" and this blanket statement is misleading. Especially for those planning on sticking to daggers, troll is the winner. But as far as sticking to the OP's question, yes, Orc it is.
Really mutilate will be forever better than combat? I was under the impression after some time Combat would outclass Ass rogues in later phases. How big of a difference in dps is there between Mutilate and Combat but ICC?
Correct. Assasin starts out better than Combat because Combat needs armor penetration to scale. You’ll start to see Combat taking over in Ulduar with better trinkets and Swords/Axes being available, as well as more arp on leather gear.
@@brandonkruse6412 On the sim sheet in all phases it shows Mutilate doing more damage than combat. Sorry should have specified why I asked the question. Unless im understanding it wrong.
@@UserName-ei7dk I wouldn’t even bother simming man, no rogues play Assasination in ICC because armor penetration scales damage further than Assasin can go.
Sim is probably for pure patchwork style encounter. Mutilate on a stand still for the entire fight and smash face will be better. However the gap shinks greatly with gear. Couple that with the fact that any movement, downtime, target swapping etc will hurt assassination more. In ICC you might lose as combat to a mutilate rogue on festergut, that's about it
I swear to god I walked in the bedroom like 2 days ago and my wife had on the new Simon video and I was like wtf why you watching this and she said “it was on recommended and I liked his hat"
nice
The GOAT
Nice :)
rip mace spec =(
look at warmane forums.. people have been working on rogue troubleshooting for about 10 years now.. you may be surprised by what you find. i have been playing on warmane for about 9 years as primarily a rogue in wrath.. first phase yes we are strong with min/maxing.. but we drop off when other classes start to get arp. Warlocks as well.. start strong... dip off..
So we aren't getting double papercutters for assass like everyones saying?
with 3.3.5 version of talents and poisons fast/fast weapon meta is dead - you will want one fast, one slow.
in *original* wrath with patch 3.0, poisons and talents were different, and this made the fast/fast weapon choice a good idea. fast/fast is NOT IDEAL with 3.3.5 version of talents and poisons.
@@SimonizeShow Very interesting! Thank you for the info!
is it worth to going leather worker in wlk as rogue?
I just published a video about professions in wrath - you can check it out here: ruclips.net/video/OCoj35gyj7E/видео.html
@@SimonizeShow yeah i saw that video you only talking about dps gain from the passive the profession has, as a lw you can make armor for yourself as rogue, like i did in tbc p1 primal strike set, and belt of deep shadow which i use 3 phases cause i never get 100death, and the newest sun and shadow chest from sw drop.
@@SimonizeShow my point is are those leather work gear matters in wtk?
most of the LW gear that matters is BoE so you don't have to be LW to use it. LW get to craft a lower cost version of the leg enhancement that only they get to use, so that is a nice perk.
@@SimonizeShow so there's no bop lw exclusive gear that's on part with bis gear (or alternative)drop from dungeon or raids is that right?
If you read why tf would you camera yourself?
cause i got a pretty face
Simon the following is meant as constructive criticism, your videos content is amazing, your spreadsheets are amazing, and talking with you has always been a blast
But my friend
You always look so angry in your videos
Now i cant see the behind the scenes so i dont know how many takes you record, i dont know when you record, and i dont eant to see you full of fake enthusiasm like so many youtubers, but maybe try some things and experiment
Maybe improv the script with only some small notes on specific numbers to read off of
Maybe try changing the lighting around your office so that differant parts of you are lit up in ways to better contour your face?
Just some ideas, and i mean this all from a place of love
haha its all good man :) I will try, I know my facial expression is kinda weird sometimes.