@@TheGodYouWishYouKnew That they should have done hard rock album after Unmasked instead of The Elder. But I was corrected that Paul did admit they should have listened.
@@TheGodYouWishYouKnewI guess. If you literally count minutes. If you don't however, you know he'd been saying they were headed away from their true roots and mission for years. At least since 1978 but likely longer. Both musically and in core image, becoming a kiddie band at the expense of the 20 somethings that got them there. Even though I was one of those kiddies, he was right. They became more of a marketing gimmick and theater show and less of a serious band in everyone's eyes, just like he said they would.
yngwie can play but he hasn't written one song on the level of any co-writes Cusano did with kiss. Not one. Gene doesn't want to give credit when it's due.
V.V brought a faster pace and harder edge sound that i don't think Gene & Paul could keep up with they refuse to give V.V credit cause they want to cut him out of anything KISS related the image the merchandising and pretend it was always Singer & Thayer cause to them the costume and makeup is more important than the person behind them
@@lucas8095 respectfully, none of that is accurate. There was never a moment of consideration given to the idea of anyone other than Gene and Paul having merchandising rights to the band. Ace and Peter sold/relinquished their partnership in the KISS brand, and none of their replacements ever became stake holders. The LEAST deserving of holding any financial stake in the band would be a guy who was there maybe two years (Vinnie), and had no skin in the game besides writing and playing on a couple records and doing some touring. He had no role in the formation of the band, no role in choreography, brand development or any business dealings whatsoever. You can say the same for Eric Carr and Bruce Kulick, both of whom gave SIX TIMES the years of service that Vinnie did, and they don't get any merchandising rights. What would make anyone in their right mind think that Vinnie Vincent should be entitled to merchandising? The guy couldn't manage his own career. He was eventually kicked out of his own namesake band, lost his record deal and then went on countless times making promises to fans, taking their money and never delivering. That's theft. And that's a bad person. When you speak of speeding up the pace, that was a directive of Paul and Gene, and it continued long after Vinnie was gone. They intentionally began playing their songs faster because they were wanting to compete head to head with the new wave of metal, as well as the hair bands. Listen to the Animalize tour. They were ripping fast, with Kulick on guitar and Carr on drums. Gene and Paul held their own just fine. Now, don't mistake me as a Gene and Paul lover. I realize those two are all about the money -- particularly Gene. But both are fine rock musicians in their abilities. Everyone wants to make Vinnie out to be the hero that he wasn't. Vinnie supporters would love you to believe that all the negative talk about him was Gene and Paul just being petty, but every other musician who tried to play with Vinnie says the same thing those two do, to this day. He was impossible to exist in a band with, and his character was questionable.
Vinnie Vincent played on 6 of the 9 tracks on COTN and co-wrote 3 of them. He played on all the tracks of LIU, his featured solo was replaced by Derringer on Exciter, he co-wrote 8 of the 9 tracks. He also came back and co-wrote the 3 best tracks on Revenge! They always rewrite history 😠 to fit their narrative.
I need to listen to Vinnie more. So far I've not cared for anything he's done... I have to think many people's dislike for Stanley and Simmons help them elevate some of the players they played with. I've been playing for 45 years and my favorite KISS guitarist is Bruce Kuilick.... Early 70s Ace was also great.
Understood buddy, I just wickedly love Creatures Of The Night, Lick It Up and Revenge I will connect with those songs! I appreciate Bruce Kulick very much. Love all eras of KISS including current lineup. Just wish Tommy and Eric had their own characters like Carr and Vincent.
Gene didn't talk about VV's song-writing. He talked about VV's uncooperative performances during recording (which gets managed through editing) and on stage (which doesn't get managed as easily if VV decides to be uncooperative and self-indulgent) and, his unwillingness to sign a contract. No song makes it onto a KISS record without Paul and Gene approving it so, he is not "rewriting history". That history is there for anyone to see on the song-writing credits. Gene is relaying his thoughts on VV based on his personal experiences with him, none of which we were there to see so, how is that rewriting history? Other than the live performances and refusal to sign a contract with KISS, there is no documentary history of what Gene is referring to. However, listen to any of the interviews with people who have worked with VV, including Mark Slaughter. Then listen to what VV says about KISS and Mark Slaughter. Bottom line: VV has done very, very little since his days with KISS so, that pretty much tells the story. VV needed KISS waaaay more than KISS needed VV. One or both of the following two elements are required to be successful in any profession: 1) Be needed. If you can't be needed, then, 2) Be wanted. It seems that, for many decades now, VV is neither needed nor wanted with respect to his musical career.
@@darinpearson2554 Good eval, its the way Ive seen it as well. Also, VV is even been more of a sketchy character. He's sold stuff as authentic, like guitars, that were copies, and he's advertised and taken money from people selling music sets, only to never ever send out what they paid for. Lastly, the most recent actions of the man, he was trying to sell these 'A night with vv" events where he would play for people on a personalize level, only to cancel and postpone these shows time and time again. He has a unique opportunity to build something off of his brief time with Kiss, and he's failed miserably. It's pretty sad when he announces something these past few years and the big headline is, will he actually come through. And then he doesn't. If he ever came through man, his fortunes may actually change.
I call bullshit. Gene & Paul hired him. Vinnie wrote several songs on COTN and LIU. Toured the planet with them. He may not have signed a contract but he write songs for them. Toured with them, shared the stages with them was on the album covers with them. He was a member of the band.
Eric Carr’s drumming was INCREDIBLE on War Machine & Loud. It was so well produced on the record and had a real full ‘in your face’ power effect. My 2 cents.
I read in KISS-Behind The Mask that they were going for a John Bonham sound. I think they nailed it! Michael James Jackson recorded the drums with vintage mics. Eric did not use his drum kit. The book doesn't mention what brand of drums were used.
@@ObsidianLife Yeah because I definitely believe Paul on that one. You don't get to be in a band like Kiss or even make it to audition if you can't play the same material twice. It is more of Stanley talking Cr@p about every past member of Kiss.
@@kenni123064 that would be NO the best besides ACE was Bruce Kulick he was solid and does not get the credit he deserves... Mark St John was not a consistent player what good is a guitarist that cannot repeat something he plays the first time... and Vinnie was NOT a team player he was a me me me and that does not work with a band like kiss
Bruce Kulick was the right replacement for Mark St John . It's like every album that Bruce played on seemed to slowly get heavier and heavier and Bruce is just a badass guitarist that's very underrated
Ace gave the correct advice but was dismissed by Gene and Paul because they knew best...according to THEM! Time proved them wrong. Ace had problems that nearly all the Rock Musicians do but he was also the true HEART of the KISS sound.
I love Gene but he always minimized the contributions to Kiss from others. Vinny helped write, I love it loud, unholy, lick it up, killer, and several more songs! I think Vinny breathed new life into an aging Kiss. Saw them in 82 and it was great!
There isn't room for much else with Gene's ego. I know a lot of people say "Vinnie saved Kiss" when he joined, but what saved them and gave them new life was taking the makeup off and rebranding themselves as a hair metal band. Creatures is one of the best records Kiss ever made - but nobody cared in 1982-83 (the album took 10+ years to go gold), as the band was seen as "a relic from the 70's".
@@drmidnight680-kz2lethat's ridiculous. I love Vinnie, the sound of the LIU album is Vinnie but when the tour was announced I bought a Kiss ticket, that never changed no matter who was in the band. Let's just remember we don't know who Kiss is because Vinnie was in the band we know Vinnie because he played in Kiss, it's not even open for debate
Vinnie's playing was amazing on the KISS stage. He was eccentric and his playing was wildly passionate, his onstage performing was jaw droppingly psychotic, in a rockin' good way.
I saw Kiss with Vinnie and I agree, my first concert! When VV came out he was the biggest thing on the stage, massive presence! As far as Creatures, the title track is one of my favorite ever Kiss songs, Steve Farris played to solos I think, and were fantastic! I also liked Elder and I think the biggest mistake the band made there, is that is when the makeup should have come off. The album would have been taken more seriously.
We must have seen a different guy, because I saw it as a self serving, disjointed mish-mash of arpeggios that had no direction. I much preferred Kulick's sense of balance. There isn't any doubt Vinnie could play well, but the product left a lot to be desired. If speed and only speed is your thing, then maybe. But guys like Vinnie Moore and even Malmsteen ate him alive in substance and melody. Plus, he was a terrible human being who ripped people off and treated people like garbage. You won't find a single musician who has anything good to say about him. He got kicked out of his own band later and removed from the label. Hence Slaughter was born.
@@freepressright Vinnie doesn't sound like a good guy to work with. But Eric brought the thunder and Vinnie brought the lightning back to KISS. (I LURVE Ace: but if it was down to Ace, there'd be no KISS between the Unmasked Tour and the Reunion/2nd Coming tour: a big gap where a whole lotta KISS thunderrock lived.) KISS's "thunder rock" is about passion. Ace and Vinnie were 'Alpha Phux': unreliable; 'zero-shytes-given'; Chads/Tyrones laying pipe but never phoning again. Bruce and Tommy were 'Beta Bucks': reliable; hard working wage-slave Husbands, who pay the mortgage and the bills, but 'just didn't do it' for the audiences who barely noticed them, much less enjoy multiple orgasms. Not a lot of fans clamored for selfies or autographs from Bruce or Tommy, both of whom were just 'there'. Ace was an earthquake to audiences. Vinnie was a great white shark to audiences. Different disasters, but both had high body counts.
@@Drahculia you're dead wrong about Bruce. He has traveled the United States more than any other non original member, supporting KISS conventions and doing guitar clinics. Bruce isn't a beta. Bruce is a balanced professional. You can't compare him to Tommy Thayer. Thayer is a copycat of Ace Frehley. Bruce was his own player -- a fusion of the classic elements of a rock guitar player with just enough evolution into the shreddy side of the 80s without getting lost in a world of senseless wankery. He was on fire on the Asylum album. That's a rocker start to finish, with blazing lead guitar work that was far more listenable than the senseless and soulless vomiting of notes that Vinnie laid out. Few people -- and most who just want to be "for" the underdog because it means being against Gene and Paul, support Vinnie like he's some sort of icon. He was barely a member. People think he contributed all this momentum to creatures. He didn't. His biggest contribution was Lick it Up. Bruce Kulick stayed for 12 years. Vinnie lasted what, 2? His live solos were God awful. At least you can give credit to shredders like Malmsteen or Vinnie Moore by recognizing their sense of melodic composition when soloing live. Not Vinnie Vincent. He was to excess, all about himself, was a total fucking weirdo, treated people like garbage, wore a wig, looked like an ugly woman and was party to the theft of money and equipment. He wasn't alpha. Alpha males do not live in ego. Ego is a weakness. Ego is beta in every way, because it hides insecurity. Vinnie was the epitome of a beta male. So while I'd love to agree with you, I just can't. Sorry.
@@freepressright Even in disagreement, I enjoy your opinions. Vinnie's wig was Paul's idea! LOL. But it's not the current 'Gene & Paul vs Vinnie retro-bashing for P.R.' of 'now' I'm referring to. It's the 'then' of: 1983 Creatures Tour (saw 2 gigs) & LickItUp tour (saw 5 gigs). KISS with Vinnie: Off the hook & burned the house down! (I acknowledge your 'who played what' studio facts). Bruce is GREAT on KISS studio albums. KISS with Bruce Live? (and I saw Animalize 2 gigs; CrazyNites 2 gigs; Revenge 1 gig but with the HotInTheShade stage). Bruce is competent for 'some rock band', or any! But Bruce Live with KISS? Yeah, Bruce was, um, really a wild man of rock. Like a database manager. Gene said it best: Bruce was "one of THOSE guys", a musician, "while (we in KISS) we're ENTERTAINERS". Ace, Vinnie: Entertainers. Bruce, Tommy: passionless, polished, professional Musicians. I respect them all. But I know WHO can deliver a more entertaining concert experience.
Vinnie Vincent and Eric Carr brougth the heaviest line up they had, don´t get me wrong i love Ace and Peter but i loved that line up, no matter what Gene say
I hear this all the time, and I vehemently disagree. He gave them Lick it Up. How was that helping bring them back? He was a warm body when they needed someone. If not him, it would have been someone else. Most of the guitar work on Creatures is not Vinnie. Dude looked like a woman, and acted like one off stage. His lead work was a Mish mash of random arpeggios with no direction. He was forgotten as quickly as elevator music.
It was time to take off the grease paint. Vinnie certainly did help KISS, especially with the Lick It Up album, although in the end, VV demonstrated he clearly was not a good fit.
@Moshe Goldberg I despise Gene Simmons, but I also know Vinnie was an absolute scoundrel of a person, and his playing was obnoxious. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but the experiences of other musician colleagues of Vinnies corroborate Paul and Gene right down the line. I mean, the guy ended up kicked out of his own band, for God's sake. He was implicated in thefts of music gear. He has repeatedly scammed fans out of money. I don't understand how anyone in good conscience romanticizes this guy's legacy, except for what they THINK they know, combined with a hidden desire to be "for" what they perceive as the underdog. And why is it that if anyone is against a POS like Vinnie, they're all of a sudden huge Paul and Gene fans? I assure you that I'm not.
I saw Kiss on the Creatures & the Lick it up tour & Vinnie was awesome each time. Gene talks trash about everyone who's not currently a member of KISS. Ace had his problems with coke & alcohol but, he was by far the most musically talented of the four & his solo album proved it in sales & the fact that it's the only one I still listen to.
Vinnie salvó a Kiss de su desplome. Esa es la verdad. Paul y Gene hicieron experimentos musicales extraños, que por poco hunden al grupo. Creatures of the night es el álbum de Kiss que escucho, más a menudo.
Sounds like a compliment, actually. The only thing I know is that I talked to people who went to Creatures era shows. They said Vinnie's solo was incredible.
I read Ace's bio and he was definitely his own worst enemy. Having said that, he was also the most rocking member of the original band. Hands down he had the best solo album. And his solo career after KISS, in my opinion, is quite good and rivals KISS or even surpasses KISS at times. Vinnie Vincent showed what he could do on his first Invasion album. For me, I just didn't take to it. He was out to prove he could play fast but it was largely forgettable. The second Invasion album was much better because he remembered a very important word... melody.
What you forget there though is those two first frehleys comet albums was all about Tod howarth not ace. Most of the best songs came from Tod. In fact pretty much the whole second album was written by rod as ace was out of it on drink and drugs. That’s the reason ace got rid of Tod because he felt it was becoming the Tod howarth band and ace hated that. If it wasn’t for Tod those two albums probably wouldn’t have seen the light of day.
@@richardlawson6787New York Groove was a hit. Ace didn’t write it but it was a hit in the 78 solo album. Paul’s album was a solid album too. The other two were really bad
If Kiss would have released "Creatures Of The Night" without ever releasing "Un-Masked" & "Music From The Elder" Ace would have stayed. However, Vinnie wrote "Not For The Innocent" & "Young & Wasted" on the "Lick It Up" album. Both of those tunes are better than a lot of Original 70's Kiss. 2 kickass heavy tunes.
I’m an Ace and Peter guy, (damn that sounds kind of, umm, wrong) and I’ve always put a lot of blame on Gene and Paul. But the more I listen to Gene lately the more I can sympathize with their situation.
I think Gene and Paul, as much as they complain, wanted to keep the original four together. They knew the value of that group. But Peter and Ace made it impossible. The Elder didnt help, which they admit was a dumb idea. The substance abuse broke up Kiss.
Business becomes personal at times. They were friend but drugs and alcohol abuse ruined two members and for the business to go on those two had to go. I have no sympathy for Criss who from all accounts including Ace was unprofessional and couldn’t even play. When the guy who produces your solo album comes in to produce the Unmasked album and he won’t let you - Criss/ play on it because you suck so he brings in session drummers - you know it’s bad. I still like Ace as he accepts blame and admits he screwed up
It is never fair to hold others hostage to one's substance abuse demons. I am not the biggest Gene and Paul lover, but I sympathize with two straight edge guys trying to deal with addicts.
Lately? Genes been an ego maniac since the beginning. Just look at the early interviews. And let's not forget about his lack of involvement during the 80s years, while he was being an " actor " . Paul carried that time period..Gene would show up to record his bass tracks then back to Hollywood
@@mikemacdonald2032 you are correct. Paul Stanley really owns the rights to being the glue. He also reportedly found out he was being robbed by management and legal counsel.
Lick It Up is easily one of the best Kiss albums and one of the most underrated metal albums ever. Vinnie is a talented guitarist and sing writer . Gene and especially Paul have nothing good to say about anybody , not even each other .
Vincent is a total nut job. Simmons was correct. KISS had an established guitar doing. Basic rock with some Ace solos. Bob Kulick ghosted for Ave and played in his style on a few tracks. Vincent was overplaying and shredding all over and that’s not KISS. The idiot is a non member lucky to have a shot and he’s telling Gene and Paul what to do. How did that work out for him!
Gene already said Ace was right about a lot stuff. Vinnie Vincent that freak of nature was a paid employee of the band that these guys built from the ground up.
I'm just amazed to hear Gene say anything positive about Ace at all. And let's face it, all their biggest hits are from the Ace and Peter era. After they left the band did 20 years of flailing around, then finally became a nostalgia rock band, with the new 'spaceman' emulating all of Ace's solos. There can be no disputing that Ace was an integral part of what made the original KISS lineup a big deal.
Come on, Gene. You and every fan of KISS knows that without Vinnie Vincent, KISS would not have continued. He was a headcase, sure, but the man was a very, very gifted guitarist and songwriter, evidenced by the fact he helped create THREE of KISS's best albums, with or without makeup: Creatures, Lick It Up, and Revenge. Give the dude his due. It's way past time.
I remember interviews where Paul and Gene said that Ace didn't play a note on COTN, while Eric Carr said he MIGHT have done some backing tracks, though.
That´s exactly what Gene and Paul did with Bruce Kulick! After his surprising work on Asylum and Crazy Crazy Nights, on the following albums Hot in th Shade and Revenge he was limited to very simple solos, even though there were very good songs; He didn't go beyond pentatonic scale without a lot of melody and with little creativity or technical difficult.
Did you know that V.V. played guitar in a disco band with Dan Hartman and G.E.Smith on bass guitar? They even had a video for the song called {Instant Replay}
And yet his style rejuvenated the band...I remember when Creatures of the night came out and then Lick it up...Also, let's not forget this was the early 80's and shredders were the BIG thing back then so in order for the band not to sound antiquated they had to capitalize on that trend with Vinnie Vincent... It's true that he did overplay a lot though... I remember the Kiss show in Paris in '83, it was AMAZING and as long as Vinnie played the songs it was great...But when he got his solo spotlight thing half-way through the show it became boring after 5 minutes, it wasn't even musical, just senseless avalanches of notes on the fingerboard at 200 mph... Impressive...But way too much... At some point the audience began to boo him and Paul Stanley had to come back on stage to "finish" the solo spotlight thing and move on to the next song... And His solo project ( Vinnie Vincent's Invasion) was pretty much like his style...Great songs but way too much overplaying...
@@warthogA10 If you read my post again you'll see that I wrote that shredders were a BIG back then 🙂🙂 I should know...I was a kid back then with my first guitar...And just like most kids back then I absolutely idolized people like David Chastain, Paul Gilbert, Steve Vai, etc...
@@jeromewagschal9485 my apologies, I completely misread that. I was a kid of the 70s, my first guitar was a plastic Roy Rogers acoustic for Christmas at 3 or 4 yo, I think I was 4 ,some tell me 3. From there it was an addiction and I'm still going today I've never been turned on by nor even slightly interested in the mechanical shredding thing Ive always loved the expression on "shredders" faces when I Introduced them to old, long time jazz, blues, swing music
@@jeromewagschal9485 my first electric, a 1970s model, gloss black Kent Les Paul... Best guitar I ever had which was stolen as my band was loading our equipment after a show in 1985. I still miss it.
I went to one of the early concerts after Creatures came out. We didn't even know that Ace wasn't playing. I was most impressed by Brad Gillis, the guitarist from the opening band Night Ranger. I liked Vinnie but don't think he was the savior of the band like some others think. They could have had any decent metal guitarist at that point.
Gene and Paul can downplay Vinnie all they want, and lord knows they have, but the proof is right there in your ears. He was a nice shot of fresh energy in Kiss' music at the time. Creatures and Lick it Up are my 2 favorite Kiss albums. There's a reason for that.
I get it, but the band needed to sell records and that one just confused the average fan (like my brother who tuned back in around Creatures/Lick). I thought the Elder was cool.
I love it too...I loved it back then and I still do, but...Like the gentleman above says : It confused the average fan... Hell, I remember asking myself back then : " Wow...That is so cool, I wonder when the movie comes out ?" Because to me it was the soundtrack of a movie written by Kiss otherwise what was the point of the music on that album 😄😄😄 ?? But no, there was no movie and Kiss tried something different...Too different...
@@jeromewagschal9485 Yeah but how ignorant is the average Kiss fan? It was very popular in the 70s to listen to more opera-ish complex music like Queen or prog-rock, nothing weird or outlandish about that at all in the rock world. Kiss made the right move artistically and i wish that they would've gone even further and more extreme. I loooove the Elder!
@@pfzt I love it too 🙂🙂 But the difference between Kiss and bands like Queen or even the other bands that did prog rock is : There was always an opera element to their music, their music had some grandeur, some sophistication and other things too... Whereas Kiss was always a rock'n'roll/ hard rock band with catchy riffs and melodies, the kind that was easy to remember to sing along with the band or in the shower 🙂🙂 It's true that they went a bit further in "sophistication" with "Destroyer" but for the most part the music of Kiss was always simple... So I guess the average Kiss fan ( I'm not saying they're... intellectually challenged...) couldn't really understand what The Elder was about...Shame, it's a great album...
There's one important difference between yngwie and vinny: Yngwie eventually learned how to self edit and made some really amazing albums in the late 80's.
The list of guitar players that went down for the auditions was enormous lot of big guys just couldn't slow me down enough to play a kiss parts with Melody
@@hooters139 Sorry but you’re wrong. Read Paul Stanley’s book Slash called and spoke with him about auditioning, but he was only 16 so it never happened.
Flyingburrito What are you talking about? I like the 80’s kiss but the original kiss sounded so much more original with Peters amazing drum style and Ace’s amazing solos
Comparing 80s KISS to classic KISS is apples and oranges. But as technical proficiency goes, the superior lineup was with Kulick and Carr. That's not taking anything away from Ace and Peter.Peter's. Ace was no virtuoso. His solos were simple blues based, Chuck Berry on steroids leads, but they were part of the sound. I don't know that I'd ever call them amazing, but they laid the groundwork.
@@flyingburritobro68 I get what you're saying but Asylum, Crazy Nights and Hot In The Shade is the best Kiss has to offer? No disrespect, just maybe a little clarification.
he is a great songwriter and great guitar player, yet for some reason he wanted to play lead guitar as if the recording was sped up. What comes out of his guitar is like a sped up recording yet he is actually playing it . Oddly V.V. has recorded some AMAZING lead guitar on demos that have never made it to a lable release, he sing pretty damn well too , when VV is interviewed he talks more like Barry Manalow than someone in a rock band lol
That's what I was thinking. And what are Gene and Paul thinking not splitting money the band made and paying Eric Carr and Vinnie a decent wage. They were big contributors that helped keep the band rolling. Gene and Paul are some greedy a holes. There's money management and then there is Greed and that's what those two are G.R.E.E.D.Y They are not a fair couple of guys. They piss me off badly because I grew up listening to them and spending money on them because they were my heroes. Now not so much with two new 'victims' that they have in the band. Give it up already. They should of been done at the end of the reunion tour but no, they go and embarrass themselves.
I still don’t understand why Gene and Paul keep trashing other band members of Kiss. Vinnie brought great sound and style to the Creatures of the night album. Still you can see why Ace left, Gene and Paul are control freaks, they never listen to Ace, he did not wanted to do The Elder, they did not listen. That’s why the band when down, and fan’s lost interest. Creatures of the night was a great album, If you listen to Ace music while he was in Kiss great songs, just like Peter. The solo albums Ace great album, great songs, if Gene and Paul would listen those track could ended in a kiss album. In fact, at that time if they could pick the best songs of every solo album, that could be a smash for them. Another missed opportunity, Gene and Paul wanted every guitar player they recruited too sound like Ace and that is a fact.
According to Vinnie, he had nothing to do with creating the ankh character. They had the design all ready to go. It was just a question of who was going to get the gig.
In an old interview Gene Simmons said that Vinnie Vincent was fired from the band since he stole the show when the band played live, it was in the minutes when Vincent played his guitar solo improvisation, if you had a chance to see some of those guitar solo improvisations on RUclips than you know exactly what i'm talking about, Gene Simmons is a big name in rock/metal history because he call the shots in Kiss along with Paul Stanley, but he's a lousy vocalist, delivering only one good vocal performance in all his career on the Crazy Nights album, he's also a decent bass player but nothing more, Gene Simmons can say whatever he want but the final result is that COTN and LIU albums are great albums and to a large extent because the guitar playing of Vinnie Vincent!!!
Vinnie’s contribution went a long way towards returning KISS to relevancy. He was/is a very gifted songwriter, and listening to Gene and Paul trying to minimize his contributions at every turn, is pretty disheartening. However, it’s very much in-line with what they have been doing for decades, especially when it comes to THE talent in the band, ACE FREHLEY.
Yeah. Vinnie joined Kiss when the band were so bad they almost broke up. Vinnie saved Kiss. In fact Kiss were in so bad shape that Gene Simmons went on to acting in movies and TV Series back then.
Creatures was a great album imo. It is mysterious with all the different guitarists. When I was a kid jammin on it back in the day I thought is was Ace sounding and playing better than Ace ever had.
Yes other than EXCITER vinnie played rest of LIU.....on Creatures I have him playing lead on 6 out of the 9 tracks and having co wrote 3 tracks. He played in every Creatures track except Creatures title song, Rock n Roll Hell, and despite writing it be didn't play I Still Love You.. Is this in agreement to what you guys know to be true? I've researched it good.
@CooganWhy the hell coming at my rude? I have followed the story of this album and its making for 40 years ..being completely intrigued and a fan since buying it at my local record store when it cams out. I wasn't rude at all in my assessment and comment so why the hostility? Anyway....it is in agreement with many notable Kiss historians that Vinnie wasn't on Creatures title track as that was Steve Ferris and Adam Mitchell himself.....he was not on Rock n roll Hell as that was Robben Ford, he wrote I Still Love You but Robben Ford did solo......Vinnie did play on Danger, Killer, War Machine, I Love it Loud, Keep Me Comin, and Saint and Sinner.....I have seen nothing respectfully that goes against that.
1. Vinnie plays more like if Zakk Wylde and CC Devil let's styles had a baby: fast, screezhy and not controlled. The writing is really good but the solos are mostly all over the place. 2. Gene was bored with KISS and left Paul to do a lot of the work. It started with Gene writing the plot for The Elder. He wanted the critics to notice him and mostly forgot the fans who made his money for him. 3. Ace had issues because Gene and Paul were dissing him. He could have completely baked and not allowed them to US anything of his. He wasn't that petty. It was good of Gene to acknowledge the favor that Ace did. 4. Vinnie lost credibility, money, and 14 o lawsuits by procrastinating and not signing any contracts. He was afraid of losing royalties. But you can't get paid if you don't completely go through the hiring process.
If I were Ace in that same situation, knowing full on that my band is about to make a career killing blunder , and my band mates are listening to outside opinions and agreeing with them and ignoring my point of view.. I would of been out of there too... Gene is wrong completely saying that Ace was wrong in not sticking around.. Seems as though Gene can't see it from this point of view.
Vinnie was/is a good player. I bought his solo tape way back when and saw him live. Gene needs to realize that he (Gene) is God awful without his makeup! 😆
Funny, if Vinnie wasn't an official member who was on the Lick it Up album cover? Who was on the Rio video that appears on Kissology? Who appears on almost everything on the new Creature Boxset? Gene and Paul will never admit that Vinnie was the best musician Kiss ever had, thay just wanted an employee to do everything they wanted, and then they got Bruce and Tommy nowadays . After Lick it Up everything just went down (I like Animalize), and when Revenge came out, who's there composing great songs like "Unholy"? Yeah, himself the unofficial Kiss member.
I'm curious, what makes him the best musician? Is it that he could play fast? Because to me, that's about all I can say for the guy. He's been kicked out of his own band before and had his record deal rescinded. No one has anything good to say about him.
@@freepressright I listen the songs not only for fun, but also with a "critical ear" for the things. Vinnie stuff its so more musical than the things Kiss done, most of Kiss songs are just the basic of basic, Vinnie songs has more musicallity into. I understand your statement and of many people out there.
@@themechanix8804 the weird thing about Vinnie is that he turned out his best work when someone, be it a producer or artist who was paying him, reined him in and kept him on a leash. Left to his own devices he was excessive and self destructive. He lacked self discipline, and that was evident in his Invasion works. Every solo was just a flurry of notes. Like vomiting sound everywhere, or like that dude who brags to women about how good he is in bed but thinks slamming it as hard and fast as he can is his default game
There's literally nothing Ace could do that any other lead player couldn't play. He's slow, can't even use his pinky and only played 2 scales his entire career. Dick Wagner and Bob Kulick who played ghost appearances on Kiss records were better than Ace.
Not an “official member”? He developed a character, he put on the makeup, he did multiple magazine interviews as the new member and he went on tour. Gene, he was in KISS.
There's more to the story. It's becoming clear why Ace quit. It's called Rock and Roll, not Rock and Broadway. I'm glad that I got to see the original members twice. Dynasty and the reunion or whatever that was. But in between that time span,I got the honor to be a guest roadie for Space Ace. I got to play all the guitars he brought into the venue. I was just beginning playing guitar and the lead roadie for ace showed me most songs by ace. I didn't get meet Ace, but to be able to shake his hand from floor to stage and sing all his songs? Fuck yeah! And to top it off, play all his songs on his guitars from the smoking guitar, the strobe, shit man.... all his guitars. Ace, if you ever read this, thank you for allowing me to handle your guitars and jam for about an hour with your crew. You showed right there, that you cared enough to trust your fans to handle something that not many have ever had the chance to get.
Saint and Sinner Keep me coming are Kisses best tracks of all time thanks to Eric's drums production and Vinnie plus great vocals. As much overlooked at Ray Gillens contribution to rock.
The Elder is one of KISS best albums. Though they should have reversed and recorded Creatures first. Vinnie is/was a hell of a player. His playing brought a freshness and update to KISS. Made them relevant. Just more of Gene trying to bash Vinnie
"We hired these '80s shredder guitarists and then--get this!--they played like '80s shredders. Paul and I just couldn't believe it. What the hell were these guys thinking?!"
Funny that Gene would say Ace didn’t know the song well so he didn’t do a good job during the video. I just watched that shitty music video, and each time there’s that little riff that is done on the bass, you’ll notice that Gene isn’t doing it. But Ace is doing a fine job.
@Moshe Goldberg There are quite a few songs over their career where Gene doesn't play bass. He just doesn't talk about them the way he does about Ace and Peter not playing on songs.
Whatever. Say what you want about Vinnie, and a lot of the stuff is valid, but don't downplay Vinnie's importance to KISS at the time he was in the band.
The hardest words for Gene to say “Ace was right all along.”
About what?
@@TheGodYouWishYouKnew That they should have done hard rock album after Unmasked instead of The Elder. But I was corrected that Paul did admit they should have listened.
@@shawnevarts511 Oh. He was right in that moment. I wouldn’t say he was right all along.
@@TheGodYouWishYouKnewI guess. If you literally count minutes. If you don't however, you know he'd been saying they were headed away from their true roots and mission for years. At least since 1978 but likely longer. Both musically and in core image, becoming a kiddie band at the expense of the 20 somethings that got them there. Even though I was one of those kiddies, he was right. They became more of a marketing gimmick and theater show and less of a serious band in everyone's eyes, just like he said they would.
LOL
Gene and Paul make it so hard to be a Kiss fan
Very good point at times this is very true
Agreed. I'm not the fan I used to be due to their rude and condescending remarks about other people.
I quit being a fan at the end of the 70s.
Especially Gene, arrogant ass. Vinnie was talented imo
Starting with the music they create.
Nobody on the planet has a higher opinion of KISS than KISS!
I'm a fan of Vincent's work with KISS no matter what Gene says
He was a great songwriter, but I found his lead work obnoxious.
yngwie can play but he hasn't written one song on the level of any co-writes Cusano did with kiss. Not one. Gene doesn't want to give credit when it's due.
@@zaiusbaltar7091 but the one thing Malmsteen did have, and still has, is an active career. Cusano not so much.
V.V brought a faster pace and harder edge sound that i don't think Gene & Paul could keep up with they refuse to give V.V credit cause they want to cut him out of anything KISS related the image the merchandising and pretend it was always Singer & Thayer cause to them the costume and makeup is more important than the person behind them
@@lucas8095 respectfully, none of that is accurate. There was never a moment of consideration given to the idea of anyone other than Gene and Paul having merchandising rights to the band. Ace and Peter sold/relinquished their partnership in the KISS brand, and none of their replacements ever became stake holders. The LEAST deserving of holding any financial stake in the band would be a guy who was there maybe two years (Vinnie), and had no skin in the game besides writing and playing on a couple records and doing some touring.
He had no role in the formation of the band, no role in choreography, brand development or any business dealings whatsoever. You can say the same for Eric Carr and Bruce Kulick, both of whom gave SIX TIMES the years of service that Vinnie did, and they don't get any merchandising rights.
What would make anyone in their right mind think that Vinnie Vincent should be entitled to merchandising? The guy couldn't manage his own career. He was eventually kicked out of his own namesake band, lost his record deal and then went on countless times making promises to fans, taking their money and never delivering.
That's theft. And that's a bad person.
When you speak of speeding up the pace, that was a directive of Paul and Gene, and it continued long after Vinnie was gone. They intentionally began playing their songs faster because they were wanting to compete head to head with the new wave of metal, as well as the hair bands.
Listen to the Animalize tour. They were ripping fast, with Kulick on guitar and Carr on drums. Gene and Paul held their own just fine.
Now, don't mistake me as a Gene and Paul lover. I realize those two are all about the money -- particularly Gene. But both are fine rock musicians in their abilities.
Everyone wants to make Vinnie out to be the hero that he wasn't. Vinnie supporters would love you to believe that all the negative talk about him was Gene and Paul just being petty, but every other musician who tried to play with Vinnie says the same thing those two do, to this day. He was impossible to exist in a band with, and his character was questionable.
Vinnie Vincent played on 6 of the 9 tracks on COTN and co-wrote 3 of them. He played on all the tracks of LIU, his featured solo was replaced by Derringer on Exciter, he co-wrote 8 of the 9 tracks. He also came back and co-wrote the 3 best tracks on Revenge! They always rewrite history 😠 to fit their narrative.
Doesn't take away that his shredding on guitar was a mess and sounded like shit mostly.
I need to listen to Vinnie more. So far I've not cared for anything he's done... I have to think many people's dislike for Stanley and Simmons help them elevate some of the players they played with. I've been playing for 45 years and my favorite KISS guitarist is Bruce Kuilick.... Early 70s Ace was also great.
Understood buddy, I just wickedly love Creatures Of The Night, Lick It Up and Revenge I will connect with those songs! I appreciate Bruce Kulick very much. Love all eras of KISS including current lineup. Just wish Tommy and Eric had their own characters like Carr and Vincent.
Gene didn't talk about VV's song-writing. He talked about VV's uncooperative performances during recording (which gets managed through editing) and on stage (which doesn't get managed as easily if VV decides to be uncooperative and self-indulgent) and, his unwillingness to sign a contract. No song makes it onto a KISS record without Paul and Gene approving it so, he is not "rewriting history". That history is there for anyone to see on the song-writing credits. Gene is relaying his thoughts on VV based on his personal experiences with him, none of which we were there to see so, how is that rewriting history? Other than the live performances and refusal to sign a contract with KISS, there is no documentary history of what Gene is referring to. However, listen to any of the interviews with people who have worked with VV, including Mark Slaughter. Then listen to what VV says about KISS and Mark Slaughter. Bottom line: VV has done very, very little since his days with KISS so, that pretty much tells the story. VV needed KISS waaaay more than KISS needed VV. One or both of the following two elements are required to be successful in any profession: 1) Be needed. If you can't be needed, then, 2) Be wanted. It seems that, for many decades now, VV is neither needed nor wanted with respect to his musical career.
@@darinpearson2554 Good eval, its the way Ive seen it as well. Also, VV is even been more of a sketchy character. He's sold stuff as authentic, like guitars, that were copies, and he's advertised and taken money from people selling music sets, only to never ever send out what they paid for. Lastly, the most recent actions of the man, he was trying to sell these 'A night with vv" events where he would play for people on a personalize level, only to cancel and postpone these shows time and time again. He has a unique opportunity to build something off of his brief time with Kiss, and he's failed miserably. It's pretty sad when he announces something these past few years and the big headline is, will he actually come through. And then he doesn't. If he ever came through man, his fortunes may actually change.
I call bullshit. Gene & Paul hired him. Vinnie wrote several songs on COTN and LIU. Toured the planet with them. He may not have signed a contract but he write songs for them. Toured with them, shared the stages with them was on the album covers with them.
He was a member of the band.
Plus they worked with him again on their best post makeup album Revenge
@@metalmark65 If Gene disliked him so much, Vinnie wouldn't be hired for Unholy album.
@V3ntilator I agree. Apparently he's better to work with in the writing department than the playing live department lol
@@V3ntilatorI’ve heard Gene give Vinnie lots of credit and praise in other interviews and articles.
Technically no as he never signed the contract. He's lost every lawsuit claiming to have more contribution in songs as well.
I just love Creatures. Drum and guitar sounds are really great. That album has a very unique sound.
Eric Carr’s drumming was INCREDIBLE on War Machine & Loud. It was so well produced on the record and had a real full ‘in your face’ power effect. My 2 cents.
I agree. It's one of my favorites along with Destroyer.
Agreed. It was a powerful record.
About as unique as one pile of steaming shit from the next.
I read in KISS-Behind The Mask that they were going for a John Bonham sound. I think they nailed it!
Michael James Jackson recorded the drums with vintage mics. Eric did not use his drum kit. The book doesn't mention what brand of drums were used.
"Play the notes exactly as we tell you to." Gee, how fun.
From two guys who couldn't play a lick.
I still think the most underrated guitarist in KISS was Mark St. John, RIP. His playing on Animalize was great & the album was on fire.
St John was badass but I think Paul was the one who said he couldn’t play the same thing twice, which is a HUGE problem when you’re making a record…
@@ObsidianLife Yeah because I definitely believe Paul on that one. You don't get to be in a band like Kiss or even make it to audition if you can't play the same material twice. It is more of Stanley talking Cr@p about every past member of Kiss.
Agreed Mark St John was very overlooked and probably the best of all guitar players besides Ace
@@kenni123064 that would be NO the best besides ACE was Bruce Kulick he was solid and does not get the credit he deserves... Mark St John was not a consistent player what good is a guitarist that cannot repeat something he plays the first time... and Vinnie was NOT a team player he was a me me me and that does not work with a band like kiss
Bruce Kulick was the right replacement for Mark St John . It's like every album that Bruce played on seemed to slowly get heavier and heavier and Bruce is just a badass guitarist that's very underrated
I still buy Frehley's new albums. Always good tunes on them. I think Lick It Up was the last KISS album I bought.
Ace gave the correct advice but was dismissed by Gene and Paul because they knew best...according to THEM! Time proved them wrong. Ace had problems that nearly all the Rock Musicians do but he was also the true HEART of the KISS sound.
He Was.
I love Gene but he always minimized the contributions to Kiss from others. Vinny helped write, I love it loud, unholy, lick it up, killer, and several more songs! I think Vinny breathed new life into an aging Kiss. Saw them in 82 and it was great!
There isn't room for much else with Gene's ego.
I know a lot of people say "Vinnie saved Kiss" when he joined, but what saved them and gave them new life was taking the makeup off and rebranding themselves as a hair metal band. Creatures is one of the best records Kiss ever made - but nobody cared in 1982-83 (the album took 10+ years to go gold), as the band was seen as "a relic from the 70's".
Paul does the same thing as well. They both like to try and take credit for everything
@@TheJohnnyCottsno it was a dead band and the people came out to see Vinnie not Kiss
@@drmidnight680-kz2le 😆 🤣
@@drmidnight680-kz2lethat's ridiculous. I love Vinnie, the sound of the LIU album is Vinnie but when the tour was announced I bought a Kiss ticket, that never changed no matter who was in the band.
Let's just remember we don't know who Kiss is because Vinnie was in the band we know Vinnie because he played in Kiss, it's not even open for debate
Vinnie's playing was amazing on the KISS stage. He was eccentric and his playing was wildly passionate, his onstage performing was jaw droppingly psychotic, in a rockin' good way.
I saw Kiss with Vinnie and I agree, my first concert! When VV came out he was the biggest thing on the stage, massive presence! As far as Creatures, the title track is one of my favorite ever Kiss songs, Steve Farris played to solos I think, and were fantastic! I also liked Elder and I think the biggest mistake the band made there, is that is when the makeup should have come off. The album would have been taken more seriously.
We must have seen a different guy, because I saw it as a self serving, disjointed mish-mash of arpeggios that had no direction. I much preferred Kulick's sense of balance. There isn't any doubt Vinnie could play well, but the product left a lot to be desired.
If speed and only speed is your thing, then maybe. But guys like Vinnie Moore and even Malmsteen ate him alive in substance and melody.
Plus, he was a terrible human being who ripped people off and treated people like garbage. You won't find a single musician who has anything good to say about him. He got kicked out of his own band later and removed from the label. Hence Slaughter was born.
@@freepressright Vinnie doesn't sound like a good guy to work with. But Eric brought the thunder and Vinnie brought the lightning back to KISS. (I LURVE Ace: but if it was down to Ace, there'd be no KISS between the Unmasked Tour and the Reunion/2nd Coming tour: a big gap where a whole lotta KISS thunderrock lived.) KISS's "thunder rock" is about passion. Ace and Vinnie were 'Alpha Phux': unreliable; 'zero-shytes-given'; Chads/Tyrones laying pipe but never phoning again. Bruce and Tommy were 'Beta Bucks': reliable; hard working wage-slave Husbands, who pay the mortgage and the bills, but 'just didn't do it' for the audiences who barely noticed them, much less enjoy multiple orgasms. Not a lot of fans clamored for selfies or autographs from Bruce or Tommy, both of whom were just 'there'. Ace was an earthquake to audiences. Vinnie was a great white shark to audiences. Different disasters, but both had high body counts.
@@Drahculia you're dead wrong about Bruce. He has traveled the United States more than any other non original member, supporting KISS conventions and doing guitar clinics. Bruce isn't a beta. Bruce is a balanced professional.
You can't compare him to Tommy Thayer. Thayer is a copycat of Ace Frehley. Bruce was his own player -- a fusion of the classic elements of a rock guitar player with just enough evolution into the shreddy side of the 80s without getting lost in a world of senseless wankery.
He was on fire on the Asylum album. That's a rocker start to finish, with blazing lead guitar work that was far more listenable than the senseless and soulless vomiting of notes that Vinnie laid out.
Few people -- and most who just want to be "for" the underdog because it means being against Gene and Paul, support Vinnie like he's some sort of icon. He was barely a member.
People think he contributed all this momentum to creatures. He didn't. His biggest contribution was Lick it Up.
Bruce Kulick stayed for 12 years. Vinnie lasted what, 2?
His live solos were God awful. At least you can give credit to shredders like Malmsteen or Vinnie Moore by recognizing their sense of melodic composition when soloing live. Not Vinnie Vincent.
He was to excess, all about himself, was a total fucking weirdo, treated people like garbage, wore a wig, looked like an ugly woman and was party to the theft of money and equipment.
He wasn't alpha. Alpha males do not live in ego. Ego is a weakness. Ego is beta in every way, because it hides insecurity. Vinnie was the epitome of a beta male.
So while I'd love to agree with you, I just can't. Sorry.
@@freepressright Even in disagreement, I enjoy your opinions. Vinnie's wig was Paul's idea! LOL. But it's not the current 'Gene & Paul vs Vinnie retro-bashing for P.R.' of 'now' I'm referring to. It's the 'then' of: 1983 Creatures Tour (saw 2 gigs) & LickItUp tour (saw 5 gigs). KISS with Vinnie: Off the hook & burned the house down! (I acknowledge your 'who played what' studio facts). Bruce is GREAT on KISS studio albums. KISS with Bruce Live? (and I saw Animalize 2 gigs; CrazyNites 2 gigs; Revenge 1 gig but with the HotInTheShade stage). Bruce is competent for 'some rock band', or any! But Bruce Live with KISS? Yeah, Bruce was, um, really a wild man of rock. Like a database manager. Gene said it best: Bruce was "one of THOSE guys", a musician, "while (we in KISS) we're ENTERTAINERS". Ace, Vinnie: Entertainers. Bruce, Tommy: passionless, polished, professional Musicians. I respect them all. But I know WHO can deliver a more entertaining concert experience.
Vinnie Vincent and Eric Carr brougth the heaviest line up they had, don´t get me wrong i love Ace and Peter but i loved that line up, no matter what Gene say
Vinnie gave KISS a rebirth. He may have been difficult to deal with but as a fan I loved his playing and how he helped bring KISS back.
The best solos on Creatures aren’t Vincent!
I hear this all the time, and I vehemently disagree. He gave them Lick it Up. How was that helping bring them back? He was a warm body when they needed someone. If not him, it would have been someone else. Most of the guitar work on Creatures is not Vinnie.
Dude looked like a woman, and acted like one off stage. His lead work was a Mish mash of random arpeggios with no direction.
He was forgotten as quickly as elevator music.
It was time to take off the grease paint. Vinnie certainly did help KISS, especially with the Lick It Up album, although in the end, VV demonstrated he clearly was not a good fit.
@Moshe Goldberg I despise Gene Simmons, but I also know Vinnie was an absolute scoundrel of a person, and his playing was obnoxious. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but the experiences of other musician colleagues of Vinnies corroborate Paul and Gene right down the line.
I mean, the guy ended up kicked out of his own band, for God's sake. He was implicated in thefts of music gear. He has repeatedly scammed fans out of money.
I don't understand how anyone in good conscience romanticizes this guy's legacy, except for what they THINK they know, combined with a hidden desire to be "for" what they perceive as the underdog.
And why is it that if anyone is against a POS like Vinnie, they're all of a sudden huge Paul and Gene fans? I assure you that I'm not.
@@flyingburritobro68 So?
I saw Kiss on the Creatures & the Lick it up tour & Vinnie was awesome each time. Gene talks trash about everyone who's not currently a member of KISS. Ace had his problems with coke & alcohol but, he was by far the most musically talented of the four & his solo album proved it in sales & the fact that it's the only one I still listen to.
Vinnie salvó a Kiss de su desplome. Esa es la verdad. Paul y Gene hicieron experimentos musicales extraños, que por poco hunden al grupo. Creatures of the night es el álbum de Kiss que escucho, más a menudo.
Sounds like a compliment, actually. The only thing I know is that I talked to people who went to Creatures era shows. They said Vinnie's solo was incredible.
I read Ace's bio and he was definitely his own worst enemy. Having said that, he was also the most rocking member of the original band. Hands down he had the best solo album. And his solo career after KISS, in my opinion, is quite good and rivals KISS or even surpasses KISS at times. Vinnie Vincent showed what he could do on his first Invasion album. For me, I just didn't take to it. He was out to prove he could play fast but it was largely forgettable. The second Invasion album was much better because he remembered a very important word... melody.
What you forget there though is those two first frehleys comet albums was all about Tod howarth not ace. Most of the best songs came from Tod. In fact pretty much the whole second album was written by rod as ace was out of it on drink and drugs. That’s the reason ace got rid of Tod because he felt it was becoming the Tod howarth band and ace hated that. If it wasn’t for Tod those two albums probably wouldn’t have seen the light of day.
His solo album sucked...never had one tune played on the radio ....of course the other guys solo albums sucked
@@richardlawson6787 -- Ace's solo album was great. It is you that sucks.
@@richardlawson6787New York Groove was a hit. Ace didn’t write it but it was a hit in the 78 solo album. Paul’s album was a solid album too. The other two were really bad
For reference the kiss song beth was a major hit ..voted number one song for the year 1976....never heard New York groove on the radio
Creatures of the night my favourite kiss album has a raw sound to it. Drums by Eric carr are amazing
Canadian musician Bryan Adams also contributed to this album!
If Kiss would have released "Creatures Of The Night" without ever releasing "Un-Masked" & "Music From The Elder" Ace would have stayed.
However, Vinnie wrote "Not For The Innocent" & "Young & Wasted" on the "Lick It Up" album. Both of those tunes are better than a lot of Original 70's Kiss. 2 kickass heavy tunes.
I’m an Ace and Peter guy, (damn that sounds kind of, umm, wrong) and I’ve always put a lot of blame on Gene and Paul. But the more I listen to Gene lately the more I can sympathize with their situation.
I think Gene and Paul, as much as they complain, wanted to keep the original four together. They knew the value of that group. But Peter and Ace made it impossible. The Elder didnt help, which they admit was a dumb idea. The substance abuse broke up Kiss.
Business becomes personal at times. They were friend but drugs and alcohol abuse ruined two members and for the business to go on those two had to go. I have no sympathy for Criss who from all accounts including Ace was unprofessional and couldn’t even play. When the guy who produces your solo album comes in to produce the Unmasked album and he won’t let you - Criss/ play on it because you suck so he brings in session drummers - you know it’s bad. I still like Ace as he accepts blame and admits he screwed up
It is never fair to hold others hostage to one's substance abuse demons. I am not the biggest Gene and Paul lover, but I sympathize with two straight edge guys trying to deal with addicts.
Lately? Genes been an ego maniac since the beginning. Just look at the early interviews. And let's not forget about his lack of involvement during the 80s years, while he was being an " actor " . Paul carried that time period..Gene would show up to record his bass tracks then back to Hollywood
@@mikemacdonald2032 you are correct. Paul Stanley really owns the rights to being the glue. He also reportedly found out he was being robbed by management and legal counsel.
Lick It Up is easily one of the best Kiss albums and one of the most underrated metal albums ever. Vinnie is a talented guitarist and sing writer . Gene and especially Paul have nothing good to say about anybody , not even each other .
Nothing good is absolutely correct!!
Vincent is a total nut job. Simmons was correct. KISS had an established guitar doing. Basic rock with some Ace solos. Bob Kulick ghosted for Ave and played in his style on a few tracks. Vincent was overplaying and shredding all over and that’s not KISS. The idiot is a non member lucky to have a shot and he’s telling Gene and Paul what to do. How did that work out for him!
Gene already said Ace was right about a lot stuff. Vinnie Vincent that freak of nature was a paid employee of the band that these guys built from the ground up.
LICK IT UP is , in my opinion , one of the TOP 5 KISS Albums . The songs , the mix . “ A MILLION TO ONE “ is my favorite song on that album
Vinnie Vincent pulled Kiss out of the Dumpster!!!
I will always like the original lineup of Kiss best.
I'm just amazed to hear Gene say anything positive about Ace at all. And let's face it, all their biggest hits are from the Ace and Peter era. After they left the band did 20 years of flailing around, then finally became a nostalgia rock band, with the new 'spaceman' emulating all of Ace's solos. There can be no disputing that Ace was an integral part of what made the original KISS lineup a big deal.
Come on, Gene. You and every fan of KISS knows that without Vinnie Vincent, KISS would not have continued. He was a headcase, sure, but the man was a very, very gifted guitarist and songwriter, evidenced by the fact he helped create THREE of KISS's best albums, with or without makeup: Creatures, Lick It Up, and Revenge. Give the dude his due. It's way past time.
Regardless of what Gene says about Vinnie, The guy kicks ass.
Credit & Respect where it's due!
🤘🏻👽
His lead playing on Lick It Up was stellar.
That completely contradicts what’s been said since ‘83 that Ace was on primarily side 1, and Vinnie on side 2.
I remember interviews where Paul and Gene said that Ace didn't play a note on COTN, while Eric Carr said he MIGHT have done some backing tracks, though.
That's why Ace is the coolest and best member of KISS!
Agree big time
The guy was cool. Now he's just another washed up bum.
Yeah. I loved the way he didn't show up to recording sessions.
I loved Ace's sound and he's a solid guitar player. Not much of a songwriter though. That's where Gene and Paul shined.
@@michaelracicot233 What? lol, he didn't showed up because he was out of the band already.
A question for lead guitarists; how would you feel about being told exactly how to play your lead parts, and left with zero creative input?
That wouldn't happen cause it's my band lol.
That´s exactly what Gene and Paul did with Bruce Kulick! After his surprising work on Asylum and Crazy Crazy Nights, on the following albums Hot in th Shade and Revenge he was limited to very simple solos, even though there were very good songs; He didn't go beyond pentatonic scale without a lot of melody and with little creativity or technical difficult.
Which lead guitarist wants all his solos written for him?
The one who has no sense of restraint and vomits 99999999 notes all over the place all the time.
Did you know that V.V. played guitar in a disco band with Dan Hartman and G.E.Smith on bass guitar?
They even had a video for the song called {Instant Replay}
I love "The Elder" and I'm so thankful that they made it.
Same.
You have got to be kidding either that or you bumped you're head against an anvil
Congrats FULL IN BLOOM to 30 K subscribers! I been here since i think 17 K subs.
Thank you, D! I always remember D Wade.
And yet his style rejuvenated the band...I remember when Creatures of the night came out and then Lick it up...Also, let's not forget this was the early 80's and shredders were the BIG thing back then so in order for the band not to sound antiquated they had to capitalize on that trend with Vinnie Vincent...
It's true that he did overplay a lot though...
I remember the Kiss show in Paris in '83, it was AMAZING and as long as Vinnie played the songs it was great...But when he got his solo spotlight thing half-way through the show it became boring after 5 minutes, it wasn't even musical, just senseless avalanches of notes on the fingerboard at 200 mph...
Impressive...But way too much...
At some point the audience began to boo him and Paul Stanley had to come back on stage to "finish" the solo spotlight thing and move on to the next song...
And His solo project ( Vinnie Vincent's Invasion) was pretty much like his style...Great songs but way too much overplaying...
"shredders weren't a big thing"... in the 80s?🤨
You're kidding... Right?
@@warthogA10 If you read my post again you'll see that I wrote that shredders were a BIG back then 🙂🙂
I should know...I was a kid back then with my first guitar...And just like most kids back then I absolutely idolized people like David Chastain, Paul Gilbert, Steve Vai, etc...
@@jeromewagschal9485 my apologies, I completely misread that.
I was a kid of the 70s, my first guitar was a plastic Roy Rogers acoustic for Christmas at 3 or 4 yo, I think I was 4 ,some tell me 3.
From there it was an addiction and I'm still going today
I've never been turned on by nor even slightly interested in the mechanical shredding thing
Ive always loved the expression on "shredders" faces when I Introduced them to old, long time jazz, blues, swing music
@@warthogA10 That must've been something I'm sure 😄😄😄
My first guitar was a no-name cheap strat knockoff but I had to start somewhere...
@@jeromewagschal9485 my first electric, a 1970s model, gloss black Kent Les Paul... Best guitar I ever had which was stolen as my band was loading our equipment after a show in 1985. I still miss it.
I went to one of the early concerts after Creatures came out. We didn't even know that Ace wasn't playing. I was most impressed by Brad Gillis, the guitarist from the opening band Night Ranger.
I liked Vinnie but don't think he was the savior of the band like some others think. They could have had any decent metal guitarist at that point.
Gene and Paul can downplay Vinnie all they want, and lord knows they have, but the proof is right there in your ears. He was a nice shot of fresh energy in Kiss' music at the time. Creatures and Lick it Up are my 2 favorite Kiss albums. There's a reason for that.
Blah blah blah.
@@markusaurelius777 😘
I love the Elder, so no matter what KISS says….
I get it, but the band needed to sell records and that one just confused the average fan (like my brother who tuned back in around Creatures/Lick). I thought the Elder was cool.
I love it too...I loved it back then and I still do, but...Like the gentleman above says : It confused the average fan...
Hell, I remember asking myself back then : " Wow...That is so cool, I wonder when the movie comes out ?" Because to me it was the soundtrack of a movie written by Kiss otherwise what was the point of the music on that album 😄😄😄 ?? But no, there was no movie and Kiss tried something different...Too different...
@@jeromewagschal9485 Yeah but how ignorant is the average Kiss fan? It was very popular in the 70s to listen to more opera-ish complex music like Queen or prog-rock, nothing weird or outlandish about that at all in the rock world. Kiss made the right move artistically and i wish that they would've gone even further and more extreme. I loooove the Elder!
@@pfzt I love it too 🙂🙂
But the difference between Kiss and bands like Queen or even the other bands that did prog rock is :
There was always an opera element to their music, their music had some grandeur, some sophistication and other things too...
Whereas Kiss was always a rock'n'roll/ hard rock band with catchy riffs and melodies, the kind that was easy to remember to sing along with the band or in the shower 🙂🙂
It's true that they went a bit further in "sophistication" with "Destroyer" but for the most part the music of Kiss was always simple...
So I guess the average Kiss fan ( I'm not saying they're... intellectually challenged...) couldn't really understand what The Elder was about...Shame, it's a great album...
There's one important difference between yngwie and vinny:
Yngwie eventually learned how to self edit and made some really amazing albums in the late 80's.
I grew up listening to Kiss and thought the works of them till I figured out Gene and Paul are A Holes
Don’t forget Mike Porcaro on bass
LOL.
Creatures is my favorite kiss album
Then hotter than hell
In 1982 Slash would have been 17 years old. Probably 16 when he supposedly auditioned.
I love both albums Vinnie Vincent Invasion put out
Slash never went down to audition for Kiss. Jeez, Paul and Gene can’t talk about Kiss’ past without bashing somebody.
He absolutely went and auditioned. He didnt couldnt do the make-up. He's interviewed about it... Alot
The list of guitar players that went down for the auditions was enormous lot of big guys just couldn't slow me down enough to play a kiss parts with Melody
Because they're both complete narcissists
@@hooters139 Sorry but you’re wrong. Read Paul Stanley’s book Slash called and spoke with him about auditioning, but he was only 16 so it never happened.
Creatures was the Classic “Bait and switch” routine, not surprising Gene is a business man above all
But when Ace did stick with the band it was the best Version of KISS..
Ace and Peter made the band unique
@@vonholland64 Not so much🤔 As far as musicianship the best lineup by far was Carr and Kulick with Gene and Paul.
Flyingburrito What are you talking about? I like the 80’s kiss but the original kiss sounded so much more original with Peters amazing drum style and Ace’s amazing solos
Comparing 80s KISS to classic KISS is apples and oranges. But as technical proficiency goes, the superior lineup was with Kulick and Carr. That's not taking anything away from Ace and Peter.Peter's.
Ace was no virtuoso. His solos were simple blues based, Chuck Berry on steroids leads, but they were part of the sound. I don't know that I'd ever call them amazing, but they laid the groundwork.
@@flyingburritobro68 I get what you're saying but Asylum, Crazy Nights and Hot In The Shade is the best Kiss has to offer? No disrespect, just maybe a little clarification.
Thanks for this information. I was unaware of all the other musicians who performed on Creatures.
Vinnie was a great guitar player and songwriter writer who saved Paul and Gene in the 80s
Vinnie Vincent is an amazing guitar player to good for Kiss .
100%%% They held him back.
Nah . His solo albums proved he wasn't as good as I thought he was.
I just bought creatures of the night remastered on 180 gram vinyl
If Vinnie was so ridiculous, then why bring him back and have him basically write the whole next album?
And Revenge album too.
Because sometimes when you run a business you have to work with the people who show up and not with the people that you wanted.
@@ISOLATIONHUB Quality not quantity. He co-wrote all the lead singles off of those 3 albums.
he is a great songwriter and great guitar player, yet for some reason he wanted to play lead guitar as if the recording was sped up.
What comes out of his guitar is like a sped up recording yet he is actually playing it . Oddly V.V. has recorded some AMAZING lead guitar on demos that have never made it to a lable release, he sing pretty damn well too , when VV is interviewed he talks more like Barry Manalow than someone in a rock band lol
That's what I was thinking. And what are Gene and Paul thinking not splitting money the band made and paying Eric Carr and Vinnie a decent wage. They were big contributors that helped keep the band rolling. Gene and Paul are some greedy a holes. There's money management and then there is Greed and that's what those two are G.R.E.E.D.Y They are not a fair couple of guys. They piss me off badly because I grew up listening to them and spending money on them because they were my heroes. Now not so much with two new 'victims' that they have in the band. Give it up already. They should of been done at the end of the reunion tour but no, they go and embarrass themselves.
As I now look back at the Kiss catalog, VV era Kiss is my favorite.
I still don’t understand why Gene and Paul keep trashing other band members of Kiss. Vinnie brought great sound and style to the Creatures of the night album. Still you can see why Ace left, Gene and Paul are control freaks, they never listen to Ace, he did not wanted to do The Elder, they did not listen. That’s why the band when down, and fan’s lost interest. Creatures of the night was a great album, If you listen to Ace music while he was in Kiss great songs, just like Peter. The solo albums Ace great album, great songs, if Gene and Paul would listen those track could ended in a kiss album. In fact, at that time if they could pick the best songs of every solo album, that could be a smash for them. Another missed opportunity, Gene and Paul wanted every guitar player they recruited too sound like Ace and that is a fact.
I loved Vinnie with Kiss.
He wasn’t a member, but they let him develop a Kiss character makeup design? Kinda weird…
According to Vinnie, he had nothing to do with creating the ankh character. They had the design all ready to go. It was just a question of who was going to get the gig.
@@TheJohnnyCotts
That sounds like something Paul and Gene would do. 😄
In an old interview Gene Simmons said that Vinnie Vincent was fired from the band since he stole the show when the band played live, it was in the minutes when Vincent played his guitar solo improvisation, if you had a chance to see some of those guitar solo improvisations on RUclips than you know exactly what i'm talking about, Gene Simmons is a big name in rock/metal history because he call the shots in Kiss along with Paul Stanley, but he's a lousy vocalist, delivering only one good vocal performance in all his career on the Crazy Nights album, he's also a decent bass player but nothing more, Gene Simmons can say whatever he want but the final result is that COTN and LIU albums are great albums and to a large extent because the guitar playing of Vinnie Vincent!!!
Vinnie’s contribution went a long way towards returning KISS to relevancy. He was/is a very gifted songwriter, and listening to Gene and Paul trying to minimize his contributions at every turn, is pretty disheartening. However, it’s very much in-line with what they have been doing for decades, especially when it comes to THE talent in the band, ACE FREHLEY.
Yeah. Vinnie joined Kiss when the band were so bad they almost broke up. Vinnie saved Kiss.
In fact Kiss were in so bad shape that Gene Simmons went on to acting in movies and TV Series back then.
Vinnie vincent is a genius ..period
Vinnie’s character? What about Gene & Paul’s? Take’s one to know one!
Creatures was a great album imo. It is mysterious with all the different guitarists. When I was a kid jammin on it back in the day I thought is was Ace sounding and playing better than Ace ever had.
I heard - Rick Derringer did the song “ Exciter “.
he did the solo, vinnie did the rest
Yes other than EXCITER vinnie played rest of LIU.....on Creatures I have him playing lead on 6 out of the 9 tracks and having co wrote 3 tracks. He played in every Creatures track except Creatures title song, Rock n Roll Hell, and despite writing it be didn't play I Still Love You.. Is this in agreement to what you guys know to be true? I've researched it good.
@CooganWhy the hell coming at my rude? I have followed the story of this album and its making for 40 years ..being completely intrigued and a fan since buying it at my local record store when it cams out. I wasn't rude at all in my assessment and comment so why the hostility? Anyway....it is in agreement with many notable Kiss historians that Vinnie wasn't on Creatures title track as that was Steve Ferris and Adam Mitchell himself.....he was not on Rock n roll Hell as that was Robben Ford, he wrote I Still Love You but Robben Ford did solo......Vinnie did play on Danger, Killer, War Machine, I Love it Loud, Keep Me Comin, and Saint and Sinner.....I have seen nothing respectfully that goes against that.
I love, Music from "The Elder". It's my favorite Kiss album. Anyone else? 💚🎸
1. Vinnie plays more like if Zakk Wylde and CC Devil let's styles had a baby: fast, screezhy and not controlled. The writing is really good but the solos are mostly all over the place.
2. Gene was bored with KISS and left Paul to do a lot of the work. It started with Gene writing the plot for The Elder. He wanted the critics to notice him and mostly forgot the fans who made his money for him.
3. Ace had issues because Gene and Paul were dissing him. He could have completely baked and not allowed them to US anything of his. He wasn't that petty. It was good of Gene to acknowledge the favor that Ace did.
4. Vinnie lost credibility, money, and 14 o lawsuits by procrastinating and not signing any contracts. He was afraid of losing royalties. But you can't get paid if you don't completely go through the hiring process.
Vinnie LITERALLY SAVED Gene & Paul’s ass
Wow... A rare moment of honesty from Gene!..
Rare? All he does is Honesty. And people don't like it.
@@JohnSmith-rk6jy Oh, you must have misread something... We're talking about Gene Simmons, the Bass player from the band KISS... 😳
Right. He's honestly stupid.
Man at cteatures I missed the spaceman but I was impressed for what it was
it must have been agony for gene to find a way to agree with ace and also shit on Vinnie
Vinnie was involved in the key albums post Ace: Creatures, Lick it up, and Revenge.
Everything Vinnie did was Everything Kiss did for quite a while.
What guitarist would want to be told what notes to play verbatim???
Lick It Up is an epic album
They hired Vinnie then said his guitar playing was shit. They hired Mark ST. John then said his guitar playing was shit.
By far the best version of kiss was with Vinnie
Good honest assessment. That matches what Michael James Jackson says regarding Vinnie..He said that Vinnie had to be reined in to fit KISS
Lick it Up album saved Kiss
Like it or not VV wrote many of the biggest hits post OG band….dude was a monster during that time
If I were Ace in that same situation, knowing full on that my band is about to make a career killing blunder , and my band mates are listening to outside opinions and agreeing with them and ignoring my point of view.. I would of been out of there too...
Gene is wrong completely saying that Ace was wrong in not sticking around..
Seems as though Gene can't see it from this point of view.
Personally, I loved Vinnies playing with Kiss.
Vinnie was/is a good player. I bought his solo tape way back when and saw him live. Gene needs to realize that he (Gene) is God awful without his makeup! 😆
Wow! You actually said that!? Lmfao!!
& Let's not forget, he was the one in the band RESISTING to remove it in the first place! Lolol
"For all his issues, Ace was a unique player. "
That's the truth, right-dur!
Funny, if Vinnie wasn't an official member who was on the Lick it Up album cover? Who was on the Rio video that appears on Kissology? Who appears on almost everything on the new Creature Boxset? Gene and Paul will never admit that Vinnie was the best musician Kiss ever had, thay just wanted an employee to do everything they wanted, and then they got Bruce and Tommy nowadays . After Lick it Up everything just went down (I like Animalize), and when Revenge came out, who's there composing great songs like "Unholy"? Yeah, himself the unofficial Kiss member.
I'm curious, what makes him the best musician? Is it that he could play fast? Because to me, that's about all I can say for the guy. He's been kicked out of his own band before and had his record deal rescinded. No one has anything good to say about him.
He never signed his contract and as such never became an official member.
The fact that he later sued Kiss, can’t have helped either.
@@freepressright I listen the songs not only for fun, but also with a "critical ear" for the things. Vinnie stuff its so more musical than the things Kiss done, most of Kiss songs are just the basic of basic, Vinnie songs has more musicallity into. I understand your statement and of many people out there.
@@themechanix8804 the weird thing about Vinnie is that he turned out his best work when someone, be it a producer or artist who was paying him, reined him in and kept him on a leash. Left to his own devices he was excessive and self destructive. He lacked self discipline, and that was evident in his Invasion works.
Every solo was just a flurry of notes. Like vomiting sound everywhere, or like that dude who brags to women about how good he is in bed but thinks slamming it as hard and fast as he can is his default game
Agree with that statement been a fan for decades , just bringing it down !
meh who cares. VV's solos on the LIU album are balls to the wall.
He can play but he's a scumbag
Best lead guitar of any Kiss album by far
@@bobowrathsovine. Oh stop!! Not even close. Best lead guitar of any KISS album was Rock & Roll Over. Ace is eons better than Vinnie.
There's literally nothing Ace could do that any other lead player couldn't play. He's slow, can't even use his pinky and only played 2 scales his entire career. Dick Wagner and Bob Kulick who played ghost appearances on Kiss records were better than Ace.
Honestly don't think Gene gets how truly hated he is by what used to be fans ...
Not an “official member”? He developed a character, he put on the makeup, he did multiple magazine interviews as the new member and he went on tour. Gene, he was in KISS.
Vinnie didn't develop the character. He's said that they had it all ready to go.
There's more to the story. It's becoming clear why Ace quit. It's called Rock and Roll, not Rock and Broadway.
I'm glad that I got to see the original members twice. Dynasty and the reunion or whatever that was. But in between that time span,I got the honor to be a guest roadie for Space Ace. I got to play all the guitars he brought into the venue. I was just beginning playing guitar and the lead roadie for ace showed me most songs by ace. I didn't get meet Ace, but to be able to shake his hand from floor to stage and sing all his songs? Fuck yeah! And to top it off, play all his songs on his guitars from the smoking guitar, the strobe, shit man.... all his guitars.
Ace, if you ever read this, thank you for allowing me to handle your guitars and jam for about an hour with your crew. You showed right there, that you cared enough to trust your fans to handle something that not many have ever had the chance to get.
Gene and Paul are the Don and Glen of metal
Ace could have stayed with Kiss and had a solo career at the same time. Easy money.
But that would have required him to keep dealing with Paul and Gene. I think he decided the $ wasn't worth dealing with them.
Saint and Sinner Keep me coming are Kisses best tracks of all time thanks to Eric's drums production and Vinnie plus great vocals.
As much overlooked at Ray Gillens contribution to rock.
The Elder is one of KISS best albums. Though they should have reversed and recorded Creatures first.
Vinnie is/was a hell of a player. His playing brought a freshness and update to KISS. Made them relevant. Just more of Gene trying to bash Vinnie
"We hired these '80s shredder guitarists and then--get this!--they played like '80s shredders. Paul and I just couldn't believe it. What the hell were these guys thinking?!"
Funny that Gene would say Ace didn’t know the song well so he didn’t do a good job during the video. I just watched that shitty music video, and each time there’s that little riff that is done on the bass, you’ll notice that Gene isn’t doing it. But Ace is doing a fine job.
@moshegoldberg9685 oh wow! I didn’t know that!
@Moshe Goldberg There are quite a few songs over their career where Gene doesn't play bass. He just doesn't talk about them the way he does about Ace and Peter not playing on songs.
Paul is Brittney Spears, & if you watch ALL OF THEIR VIDEOS, is he really playing guitar 🎸?
He's too busy dancing & making kissy faces
Ugh!!!
Gene Simmons is the best - just ask him.
Whatever. Say what you want about Vinnie, and a lot of the stuff is valid, but don't downplay Vinnie's importance to KISS at the time he was in the band.
Like Ace should have stuck around and just keep gettin his ideas and thoughts kicked to the curb? When he was RIGHT??