The Secret Nazi Fighter Jet You've Never Heard Of
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- By 1944, the war had taken a sharp turn for the axis forces after three years of military dominance. They were not only severely depleted in strategic resources but also facing an overwhelming Allied offensive in all the theaters of World War 2.
As the Allies threatened to achieve complete aerial supremacy over Europe, Germany’s high command opted to halt the production of bombers and large aircraft to concentrate on developing state-of-the-art jet fighters.
But the legendary German engineering would not be enough to give the Axis the upper hand this time. The Allies had caught up with their aviation industry, and the Germans panicked when they learned their enemies were about to deploy the British Gloster Meteor jet-powered airplane.
In response, the Luftwaffe clung to its hopes of developing the Focke-Wulf Ta 183 Huckebein, a groundbreaking jet fighter that would replace the Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet warplane in the world.
Still, as the Allies drove ever closer to Berlin and the last steel and aluminum stockpiles were exhausted, the Germans continued their desperate attempt to build the aircraft, hoping that they could repel the Allies as they made their final push towards the Führerbunker. And if they had to use wood to complete the project, that’s how it would be…
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No question that Kurt Tank's team's design was uber-influential in the design of many aircraft after the war. It wasn't until the 60s that western fighter jet designs steered away from that basic design philosophy, with the soviets keeping it until the 70s. A testament to a brilliant yet simple and elegant solution.
He did have gen 2 fighters in the drawingboard as well, with afterburner and everything.
@@matsv201
Designed and wind-tested in Argentina Pulqui III, a.k.a. later as the Indian Hindustan HF-24 Marut ...
Tank was forced to leave Argentina in 1955, after Perón was ousted in a military coup.
You said Uber
Kurt Tank is one of the best Airspace engineers we knew. Adaptive and Inventive. Per example with his legend of the 190. Everything about it was (we cant use this so what else can we do and still make it better)
@@matsv201 8
While the MIG 15 is quite different in many ways, it certainly seems like it was at least loosely influenced by the TA-183.
The Russians and Americans captured thousands of German scientists at wars end... along with blueprints and Jet/Rocket prototypes. They were all put to work in their military and space projects.
Look into Operation Paper Clip.
SS Officer Wernher von Braun is known as The Father Of NASA.
Mig15 had copied rolls Royce jet engines
mig 15 was based on this design the russians where to technological impaired to design their own . its even a noted fact that they used parts and design to make their own .
As soon as I saw the 183's drawings, I immediately thought of the MiG-15. The resemblance is striking.
@@marcusfranconium3392 Just look at the TU-4 vs the B-29.
There was also the Saab 29 Tunnan which was losely based on the designs of the Messerschmitt P.1101 and the Ta 183.
There is a town in Sweden called Finspång. They have made steam turbines since turn of the century. During WWII they was contracted to build gasturbien (aka jet) engines, this was fairly late in the war, and as far as i know non was delivered. Anyway, the industry started to make gasturbine after the war and sell them.
Anyway, the rumors have it that somewhere in the documentation the P.1101 drawings was smuggled out. Finspång is really close to Linköping where the J29 Tunnan was developed and built.
Now J29 tunnan never used that engine, but rather a UK engine that was licences build by Volvo in the other side of Sweden that was a radial flow engine.
Its interesting to see that the Mig 9 is far more similar to J29 and P1101 than to Ta183, while the Mig 15 look simular to the Ta183. Still Mig 9 and Ta183. The mig 9 just use a Russian built BMW 003 engine, while Ta183 would have used a hybrid design. And to be fair, the F86 sabre, kind of also look rather simular.
I guess J29, Mig 15 and F86 simply have the benefit of being a few years later, hence having access to more powerful engines.
The irony of the story was that the plant in Finspång was bought up by ASEA, that was merge into ABB that sold out the gas turbine production in Finspång in the early 00 to Siemens. (gasturbines was sold to Alstom but the generator was retained in ABB production)
@@matsv201 It was Operation Paperclip that gained all information about german designs and development. As soon as Boeing engineers had german data for swept wing design they turned all their aircraft design over. B47 and B52 had never borned without Operation Paperclip. And so fort all rocketry that US designed since W. Von Braun surrendered to allies with all his crew and data.
The Tunan is a Kurt Tank design. Heavily based on the Ta-183 Huckbein.
@YT I've read in actual books that it was Kurt Tank's design
@YT Its been over a decade since I looked into it. The one book I can remember is German Secret Weapons of World War II, I believe the one by Ian V. Hogg. I remember reading that at one point Tank ended up in South America, where he completed the Tunan design.
Also, the MiG-15 is directly related to the Ta-183. When the Allies were dividing up the spoils, Stalin grabbed everything(and everyone) he could, and relocated it all to Russia. This inlcuded the wooden mock-up of the Ta-183, and a lot of its research material. We got some of the info also, but not a mock-up. Tge Soviets got a copy of tge Brits Nene engine when Stalin was allowed to send people to check out the factory. One way tgey guaranteed they got the correct material was one of the Soviet team had foam soles on his shoes. As they went by the machine tools, he would step hard to collect the metal shavings, at the same time noting which section he was in.
The Me262, with tricycle landing gear, was a gorgeous design despite its flaws!
El problema estaba en la débil aleación de los alabes de sus turbinas Jumo 004 .
Todo lo demás un avion revolucionario e insuperable.
Agreed. A magnificent, beautiful, and timeless design. One of the most influential aircraft ever.
It was very interesting to see the very early tail dragger 262, one that is often overlooked.
German aircraft DESIGN was more than a decade, better 2 decades ahead of anybody else.
No olvidar el fantástico diseño sigilo del Horten Ho 229 !!! predecesor de los actuales aviones sigilos
Well now we know where the mig15 came from.
Hell yes! And we or folks like us knew about this aircraft long ago. Read Anthony Sutton's book, National Suicide and one will see that much of the Soviets technology was purposely fed to them by Western nations. They need to have a boogey-man to justify feeding the Military Industrial Complex monster, that today has become the Technocracy Corporate Deep State.
And thanks to Rolls Royce the mig 15 had a decent engage.
Like most Russian designs, they’re always a cheaper engineered knockoff.
@@michaelbooher339 you say that like its a bad thing.
F 86 SABRE too
Another major problem was the shortage of experienced pilots . They lost all the ace and such and the training for new pilots was very short do to the shortage .
Also the lack of instruments for the cockpit,1200 262 were built but only 300 were completed for duty,
La falta de combustible dejó a la mejor fuerza aérea del mundo en tierra.
the victor it wasn't called if the us said the truth
@@luiscesarcenturion8583 I translated that into Spanish, it still didn't make sense. Please edit or post in your native language.
("Sgt.J"). Yeai! Duster. 👍The Car a Decent one. "Even the inline 6." Lol.✌️
Lack of oil, aluminum, steel, and a reliable logistical system to get the supplies to where they were needed. Also, the Me-262 was not designed as a dogfighter. It was a bomber interceptor.
Actually... it was AH who wanted it to be used as a bomber interceptor/fighter bomber. Adolph Galland, one of Germanys top aces and Hitlers favorite... tried to convince AH to designate it strictly as a fighter. His pleas fell on deaf ears though.
A rather unhappy workforce didn't help either. It's tough being slave labor.
The war was lost in 1941. Provoking two enemies with large populations and invulnerable manufacturing was a damn fool move for the Axis.
It was designed as a fighter not the Bomber Interceptor that Hitler demanded.
@@taniusarndt8975 Hitler DIDN'T insist on a Bomber Interceptor. That was a function of being a fighter at that time (although it was no accident that German fighters mostly had cannon armament). Hitler wanted it to be an untouchably fast light bomber. Chalk that up to Stuka nostalgia and Mosquito envy.
I made a vac-form kit of one of these in the 1980's.
It's suspiciously close to several later cold-war era aircraft - the MiG 15 & 17, for instance, and the SAAB 29 'Tunnan'.
I was thinking of the SAAB myself when I saw it.
and the Dassault Ouragan
Main difference from the Migs and Ouragan being the high shoulder-mounted wing.
@@lancerevell5979 La-15 then.
The SAAB design team under Lars Brising acquired P.1101 data, a Messerschmitt design and used it to explore the swept-wing configuration with an experimental version of the SAAB 91 Safir. This led to development of the SAAB 29 Tunnan (Barrel), designated J29 by the Royal Swedish Air Force and first flown on Sept. 1, 1948
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the Swedish J29 because that resembles the Ta183 way more than the Migs
Most people aren't going to be familiar with Swedish fighters.
@@darklordojeda If you're going to make a video about it you damn well better do your research.
SAAB supposedly also had access to the Ta 183 blueprints.
Even more than the Americans and Soviets? Even though they both took Nazi scientists who worked on the Ta-183 and Me-163 projects?
Dr. Kurt Tank also developed a beautiful Bird of Prey HF 24 named as Marut for India. But because it lacked a really good engine, the Air Force considered its performance not upto their satisfaction.
The "MK" in "Mk 108" stood for "Maschinenkanone"-"machine cannon", not "Mark" 108
Yup.
"Em - Kay" instead of "mark".
Depsite knowing that, in my head I imagine pronouncing it "mark" at least half the time.
@@BlahVideosBlahBlah Ikr . (off-topic) I was bewildered to learn a Baja Bug , off-roader , was pronounced Ba Ha , as in the Baja Desert in Cal/Mex . I've known several American friends also pronounce Baja as Ba Ja . Who'da thought ?
Have a look at the Messerschmitt P.1101, a competitioner in the Emergency Fighter program. For testing it had variable sweep wing. The later Bell X-5 based on it.
Not just based...it was allmost a total copy
To be fair, "based on", "copied from", and "come with same ingenious solution independently" were virtually visually indistinguishable, unless one have access to development cycle dossiers. No disrespect intended to Nazi germany engineer, or american engineer, just another perspective.
And the Bell X-5 showed that there was significant issues with the concept - mostly a tail that was way too small.
The Me P1101 had fixed swept wings but the Bell X-5 had variable sweep wings.
Oh you are so wrong.
Bell X5 was ripped off from the British Miles M52.
That is where the Bell got the moving tail design from.
As per an agreement the Brits gave Bell the drawings of the M52, however nothing came the other way.
The M52 was able to break the sound barrier with a jet engine and conventional take off, whereas the Bell needed a rocket and an air launch.
If the Government hadn't cut funding and gave the plans to America, the mach race could have ended very differently.
Miles had been working on the M52 since 1943.
@@fryertuck6496 The Bell X-1 ripped the tail design off the Miles M52 (and then the British government canceled it).
The X-5 came much later…
In winning WW2, Russia and the US out manufactured the Germans in bombs, planes, ships, tanks and artillery.
Stalin was quoted, “Quantity has a quality all its own”
@supersayianjim-xl
German Generals wanted to start the War in 1945. Hitler was a Gambler and thought he could Bluff the English and the French into giving him Europe without a fight. The invasion of Poland forced the English and the French into declaring War.
Hitler and Stalin knew a War between the two was Inevitable. Hitler was ready to start it after the Battle of Britain ended. Stalin thought it would start a couple of years later than it did. Hitler needed conquered Russian oil, metals, wheat, farm land and Slave labor to maintain his War machine.
Hitler knew War with the US was Inevitable too, but he thought he could defeat the Soviet Union before then, and the US would be too busy with Japan to be much of a threat to him.
@supersayianjim-xl
The Japanese Zero's superiority was destroyed by the US Hellcat and every other US warplane made after that.
The Zero was turned into an exploding firecracker with a two second machine gun by US fighter planes.
Why?
No armor for the Japanese pilot and no self sealing fuel tanks which turned the Zero into a fiery funeral pyre.
Most of the experienced Japanese pilots were killed at Midway as was four Main Aircraft Carriers.
The Big Japanese submarines were just targets for US planes and accomplished nothing.
The US Submarine fleet sunk 55 percent of the Japanese merchant fleet turning Japan into a land of starvation.
The Japanese Naval superiority was destroyed by its Admiral's stupidity, with Midway and Leyte Gulf being prime examples.
Of course, the US cracking of the Japanese secret Naval codes helped a lot.
The Japanese banked on one Big Naval battle to destroy the US fleet but the US never obliged and pursued a hit and run strategy until 1944 when it overwhelmed the Japanese with huge numbers of new Battleships, cruisers and Aircraft Carriers.
The Germans and Japanese did share tech of the German jet fighters, rocket engines and radar via long distance German submarine trips between Germany and Japanese occupied territory.
The range of the Meteor was only 600 miles. It would probably be of limited use in Europe. Remember that the German jets needed only very limited range.
The Allies were well into mainland Europe! So 600 miles heaps
By late 1944, the Allies already had bases in France.
@@WALTERBROADDUS The early Meteors were not that good. The Meteors were only 20MPH faster than the Hawker Tempest and significantly less maneuverable. The Meteor rapidly gained the name of the "flying coffin" . In tests against the Spitfire Mk 19, the Meteors were outclassed. Eric Brown had very little respect for early Meteor.
@@malcolmbruce1894 still, it was a decent first try. The Bell P 59 was a dog as well.
@@malcolmbruce1894 Virtually a piston engine plane with a jet engine. The meteor was petty terrible.
Just accept the fact that there would be no f-86 or Mig 15 without that aircraft design seriously.
Yep worlds first assult rifle stg44, ballistic missile and fighter jet!
Because the USA and USSR were wholly incapable of separate development programmes.
@@thefunnyfritz4035While early soviet jet design was actually at least to some degree based on late war german jets. The Americans, like the British, had already designed and flown their own jets before the fall of Berlin, before the capture of enemy Me262s, way back in 1942. The Americans did study the technology as much as possible to fully grasp the level of technology and understanding the germans had achieved which was roughly the information that the soviets possessed at the time too, meaning studying these machines could aid the understanding of future Soviet jet design. As for the sabre, it was designed by the same designer of the p51, using the experience gained from the bell p59a in test flights and the failures of the p80a in early korea.
Hookebein was obviously the origin of the early MIG and Sabre. The allies were not shy about copying German innovation.
The Pulqui II is on an argentinian air force museum. I was able to visit it and the plane looks spectacular. White and red. I didn't know about its story in Germany.
The Tank design team had already designed the Pulqui III, which was finally developed in India, being this already a supersonic fighter with ground attack characteristics.
That's right, that plane was the Hindustan "Marut" (storm in Hindi)...greetings from Argentina...
El Pulqui III que llegó a ser maqueta era un delta diseñado por Horten. Nunca pasó de maqueta de madera, porque a Horten no lo respetaban, porque no era un fiestero como Tank, que luego de 5 años de hacer las cosas mas o menos bien comenzó a preferir las tertulias filo nazis y gastar gran parte de lo asignado avanzar en el proyecto en champagne y putas para agasajar, a los políticos que estaban encantados y les importaba poco que defalque al estado, ya que "organizaba e invitaba a las festicholas".
@@aronrealco4434 En el Museo Nacional de Aeronáutica de Moron está un ala volante de Horten, y otra llamada "piernífero", ya que era una especie de ala volante en la que el piloto le daba impulso para despegar usando sus piernas...
Now we know where the Sabre Jet came from.
Mig 15 as well
The Me 262 was vastly superior to the Glouster Meteor. It was deferred by Hitler into a FB role thus delaying development and roll out. The TA would never had been a replacement for the Me 262, simply too late.....
Except for reliability and availability the ME262 engines. The ME262 would have been of limited use against the Meteor as it would have spent most of it’s time being serviced and having engines replaced
patrick roger that
Superior in what way, they had a maximum life of only 16 hours before they self destructed.
Some mention J-29, that set several speed records. The FW was not known by Sweden, but German research papers on swept wings reached SAAB 1945, which made them change from straight to swept wings. The bulky look was for housing the bulky British jet engine. Not for using wood. The Swedish jet engine was abandoned for the proven British, due to emergency with the cold war and Soviet union.
Swept wings, the proud british never would have accepted this "German invention!!
@@michaelpielorz9283 The fact the Spitfire wing came from pre-war German research rather blows that idea out of the water. Not that it was a one way street either - the Germans copied the British idea of using fuel injection, and upward firing guns to name but two. Countries will always evaluate other countries ideas, and sometimes adopt them for themselves.
If you know anything about German aircraft... you know about Kurt Tank and german experimental and jet powered aircraft. The Huckbein being no exception.
Sad end of the Pulqui II. The last prototype is in the Morón's Aeronautic Museum, Buenos Aires. A beautiful machine.
Thank you for an unbiased, and semingly factful insight to an aircraft, as an aviation enthusiast was unaware of. Please keep up this good work.
I wish I was smart enough to be a pilot.
These are all scripted from Wikipedia. No real effort put in to creating original content.
@@treystephens6166 Just wish I was Smart!
@@pepermintpilot1694 I’m almost a 34 year old part time dishwasher & I’ve never had a car, a girlfriend or a place of my own. I don’t understand why I never succeeded in life but then I remember it’s because I’m stupid!!!
@@treystephens6166 Thanks. I can relate to that!
I saw the thumbnail and Immediately thought, “Pulqui”?
Quisiera añadir que, afortunadamente para la población civil (sobre la que se centró el bombardeo previo al derrocamiento de J.D.Peron) el Pulqui II no consta que tuviera participación alguna, ya que solo había un prototipo en vuelo (quizas ninguno), ya que de los 5 construidos, 1 fue para pruebas estáticas y 3 se destruyeron en accidentes con dos pilotos fallecidos), actualmente el 5° (último construido en 1959) sobrevive y se exibe en el Museo del Aire y espacial de Morón), saludos y buen informe...
True. Pulqui II was never used in action and certainly not during the coup that overthrew Perón.
En realidad el pulqui no participo en el derrocamiento de peron ya que esa funcion la cumplieron los Gloster Meteor, si un pulqui II participo en el desfile de la victoria, en el cual las maquinas tenian la inscripcion "cristo vence"
Cuantos pilotos alemanes trabajaron por Argentina? Cuantos se quedaron, y cuantos volvieron a su patria, Marcelo?
Saludos desde Alemania :)
Me consta según archivos que Adolf Galand asesoró a pilotos de la Fuerza Aerea Argentina, Otto Bherens falleció en un accidente de uno de los prototipos del Pulqui II, y Werner Baumbach, estuvo volando Lancaster en pruebas de un bomba tipo Hs,296 (PAT 1), en una prueba sobre el Rio de la PLata uno de los motores fallo estrellandose y falleciendo en el mismo junto a otros tripulantes.Tambien Hans Rudel estuvo de paso por el pais desonozco si realizo vuelos,.Los hermanos Horten, realizaron trabajos de diseño (Reimar) y dictaron clases en la escuela de la F.A.A. y la facultad de la ciudad de Córdoba, de sus proyectos I.A 47 (sólo se realizó la maquueta de madera) el I.A 48 solo dibujos y el mod. para túnel de viento y del I.A 48 se construyo un sólo ejemplar que volo a fines de la década de 1950, Reimar se establecio en la Pcia. de Córdoba , se caso y tuvo hijos y murió en Argentina-Saludos desde Argentina.
This is not a Nazi fighter…it was designed by Kurt Tank after the war….this channel constantly uses spurious information and non-related footage.
Exactly 👍
Some americans and a lot of brit s got stuck in WWII propaganda and were unable to differ between Nazi- and german.(:-))
@@michaelpielorz9283 that's true for several nations, I suppose. But I'm sick and tired of these historical inaccuracies for the purpose of creating cheap clickbait. Worst...people start to believe this.
@@KFO6666 ……good point….disinformation will mess up peoples perception of history.
This channel has obviously never heard of the "Observers Book of Aircraft" It was a pocket sized book with editions brought out every year and included all these things some bloke concluded I never heard of. It taught me of this project, East German jet airliner, italian cruise and sprint engined jet fighters and many others. Bring them on Dark Skies, I've heard of them all.
The Ta 183 was not chosen as the final "Emergency Lightweight Fighter". The Messerschmitt P.1011 and Blohm & Voss P 209 both had orders for several prototypes each.
Great production value using limited footage…and excellent voice over!
This was not a 'Nazi' fighter. And activities of well know German aircraft designers such as Tank and Messerschmitt after WW2 are well known and documented.
That's a argument Hill to die on for another day.
Ha.
True,,,, it wasn't.
German weapons
German design
German cars
German engineer
German knowhow
Amazing !
A friend who passed away in 1999 was a WWII Polish fighter pilot who flew in England in 315 Sq, married an English girl and ended up in Argentina with Kurt Tank and the rest of the jet program team. He actually had to sell himself to Peron as an experienced pilot and engineer that could be beneficial as a member of the production crew, since he had traveled there without being an official member of the group. He also became close friends with Otto Behrens who sadly died in the crash of a Pulqui Dos when the wings failed. He preferred the personality of Rudel(a common man) over the seemingly arrogant aristocratic Adolph Galland. His wife was a seamstress who made many dresses for the German wives as well.
Interesting information, thx!
Thank you for this anecdote.
The Saab 29 flying Tunnan was the real successor of the Huckebein.
we tried our best.
Odd how many post ww2 Soviet designs resemble German (and some Allied) designs, yet are always explained away via this or that set of differences.
Not to mention they ,,meaning both Soviet and allied designs jumped a generation.
@@gregelliott2537I love how people try to act like the allies did not take German technology and that they just looked the same and had the same system out of coincidents lol
@@tiagomonteiro130 Professor Werner Von Braun was the engineer who put people on the moon. The Saturn V did look more than a bit like his earlier work, e.g. the V2
@@tiagomonteiro130 exactly. It's a fun subject to look into and research. The mig 15 wasn't the only jet that came from re-worked German plans that flew over the skies of Korea
@@tiagomonteiro130 Everyone who got their hands on German technology used a lot of it, because it was ahead of what they had themselves. Except the defeated Axis nations of course, partly because the US and Russia had taken all their geniuses away.
The La 15 resembles this much more than the MiG 15, I think it was even based off the appearance.
i like your pfp
I thought the thumbnail was la-15 at first
The La-160 is very close to the design.
Yes, el ala alta y el timón de cola en "T"
Some encounters between Gloster Meteors and German Jets seem having taken place in Northern Italy or Flanders; after this, Meteor pilots received instructions to avoid any fighting with German jets, just run away upon sighting them.
*There were no Gloster Meteors in Northern Italy.*
*The RAF was very unimpressed with the Meteors performance and it was never used in the fighter role during WW2.*
^^ Y porque? Porque los Me 262 eran mas agiles? O los pilotos mejores?
El Me-262 era poco ágil en combate, su velocidad, superaba a todos los aviones aliados, tenía sus inconvenientes, ni los pilotos ni los sistemas de tiro estaban adaptados a esas velocidades, para tirar con sus cañones, tenían que reducir algo la velocidad, y quedaban un momento a merced de los artilleros de los bombarderos. No iba mal encaminado el Hitler al indicar que el Me-262 se utilizase como bombardero, los fabricantes pudieron modificar al menos alguno, enfrentarse radicalmente a un poder así no es inteligente ni práctico. Gesund +
@@sandervanderkammen9230 You are known for your pontifical and no supported comments about Wankel Rotary Combustion Engine, that cross the fence of free expression, and make you member of the bullying class. No interest in whatever you may say
TA-183, any IL-2 sturmovick player worth his cannons knows of this fighter
I was going to comment something similar before I saw this comment. So many great aircraft in those games!
The British prototype jet engines spent more time running on benches prior to being fitted to an aircraft than the expected lifespan of the 262 engines. The German designs were just too immature and manufacturing capabilities too limited to ever make a difference. The aircraft did look nice though.
By the time the 262 became operational the UK had three Centrifugal flow turbine engines and two Axial flow turbine engines in production. But that's ignored by these RUclips channels. Both the US and UK had two Jet fighters by the wars end with several more on the drawing books.
The maximum life of the jet engine on the Me262 was 25 hours, with a more realistic life expectancy of 15 hours. The flight hours before overhaul on the first Allied centrifugal jet engines was around 180 hours, and steadily went up. The U.S. was flight testing the P-80 Shooting Star in early 1944, along with the British Meteor. Both were faster than the Me262.
The key thing was the superior metallurgy of the British
@@robertpatrick3350 in knowing what is needed and having access to the materials required.
@@robertpatrick3350 as it happens Sir Frank Whittle knew of the limitation of the integrity of the metals which is why he made centrifugal engines. I recommend a book by Sir Stanley Hooker "Not much of an Engineer". He designed the superchargers for the Merlin engine and was in on the ground floor on the development of jet engines with Whittle from the beginning. Amazing read and highly recommend it. Also there is a interview with Hooker on RUclips also by the same name as the book. Also well worth a gander.
Kurt Tank also went on to design a very elegant strike fighter for India before he finally returned home to Germany.
Very slight note: It`s not a Mark 103 cannon, it`s Maschinenkanone 103.
The Problem wasnt the production of enough fighters but they had no gasoline. Ive read in an depot in Regensburg they had stored 1000 262planes but no fuel
The Messerschmitt Me-262 ran primarily on J-2 stoff, a synthetic jet fuel made from coal which was in plentiful supply in Germany.
Allied bombing caused shortages of all logistical support.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 main LW fuel problems was SUPPLY OF AVGAS , not JP-2. The last chance to make jet fighter work ; would have been late 1943 when LW had 1000 'experten" pilots.
COMPLETING the JUMO-004A by 1942 COULD HAVE BEEN MADE TO WORK , PROVIDED SUFFICIENT AMOUNT OF NICKEL/CHROME alloy was stockpiled. which was assembled but installed in the EAST-WALL WEST WALL AND THE ATLANTIC WALL.1940-1943.
@@paullakowski2509 Exactly my point! the Jumo -004b Orkan engine needed *No Avgas,* was cheaper and needed less manpower to build than a DB-601 or Jumo 210 engine and used significantly less restricted strategic materials.
The Jumo 004b required no Nickel in its construction, the Jumo -004A required Krupp P-193 _Tinadur-60_ (60% Nickel).
The Jumo 004b was redesigned to use Krupp P-198 _Chomadur_ a high temperature, creep resistant alloy based on Chromium with no Nickel content. _Chromadur_ (A296) is still used in jet and gas turbine production.
The Jumo 004b had excellent durability thanks to the introduction of hollow turbine blades with bleed air-cooling, and high temperature, heat resistant ceramic coatings throughout the hot section.
Common on modern engines but completely unavailable to Allied jet engines.
Many factors effected the outcome of the war... in hindsight ir is easy to see that by late 1940 Britain and Germany had both lost the war and America and the Soviet Union would be the only winners.
I think the biggest issue with the thin wooden wings isn't even enemy fire, it's the strength in turns or any oscillations from transsonic flight.
But what about the British _Mosquito_ and its wood construction? Albeit not as fast as the 183, wouldn't the Mosquito's weight (due to larger size) induce much more wing loading and thereby experience the same issue with strength?
My understanding was that they were fast and agile, but maybe their use as a night bomber/recon plane meant that it hadn't seen the same high-stress maneuvers your referring to... 🤷♂️
@@DUKE_of_RAMBLE the mosquito had both thicker wings and wouldn't be pulling as many Gs as a jet fighter
The period from the 1930s-1950s was a time of incredible advancements to aviation. In 1939, when the war began, biplanes were still relatively common military aircraft, the British, Soviets, Italians and Chinese using them, Italy even used them in front line duty around 1941 and the last kill scored in combat by a biplane was in 1945. Yet in 1942, this Ta-183 project begins, which results in the most advanced plane by 1945's standards and a plane which influenced the Mig-15, a plane incredibly modern for 1949's standards. It's ridiculous to think that in 1945, biplanes associated with WW1 were still in use, and at the same time, the Ta-183 could have been finished, a plane roughly as effective as a 1950 fighter jet of the early cold war!
The MiG-15 was designed by German Heinkel engineer Siegfried Gunter as part of the Projekt 1000 series in the early 1940s.
Back I think in the 80s, there were two tv programs called, 'Wings." One was comedy about a small airline.
The other was about airplanes. One of their shows stated that the Soviets made the first jet airplane before the war but, Stalin felt it was to expensive and declined to fund its full development.
Has anyone else come across that ?
That was very interesting, thank you. I certainly had never heard of the TA-183 before
The very first jet airplane is the German Heinkel He 178. First flight was in August 1939.
I was fortunate to take several pictures of the Pulqui II during a visit to Argentina many years ago.....they had an air museum by the aeroparque Jorge Newberry right next to the Rio De La Plata.....they also had a Skyhawk and a Black Lancaster.....the Pulqui did remind me of a MIG 15.....but a bit more graceful and not as utilitarian as the Mig.....
Imagine if Germany waited just a bit longer to go to war and already had jet fighters made?
vor 1 Sekunde
I had the same idea! But... the biggest obstacle for this forthgoing was Hitler himself ;P
He made so much wrong and stupid decisions, so that more and more argue, he was a traitor.
Everybody wonders... why he was in such a hurry to start the war, so unprepared and unsecured?
@@TessaractAlemania-hd7tv Jet engine production was only delayed by the shortage of Nickel... the annecdotes about Hitler interfering is a popular but completely false urban myth.
Kurt Tank actually collaborated in the construction of three prototypes, called Pulki 1, Pulqui 2 and Pulki 3, the latter which was not built in Argentina, Kurt escaped to India due to the liberating revolution and there he built it under the name of Maruti, a twin-reactor destined for Argentina but that stayed in India.
Pulki 1 Dewotine
I'm from Argentina. The Pulqui II prototypes where never used in combat, much less in the 1955 coup against Perón, father of the Pulqui and Pulqui II proyects. The infamous bombarment of the plaza was made with Gloster Meteors.
Hubo un ataque con un Pulqui tomado por la sublevación. No recuerdo si fue aereo o un ataque a tierra.
@@zumb42 Interesante. Nunca leí nada sobre un Pulqui usado más que en vuelos de prueba. Los cañones de 20mm estaban completamente operacionales?
Great video - IL2 1946 had most of these futuristic german designs.
Actually the Pulqui II never got into production run since they couldn't find an engine supplier,the 1955 dogfights that occurred during the Revolución Libertadora were between older WWII models,that I can tell you as an Argentinian
Muy bien, Santiago, viva Messi! :D
MiG-15? Nah, the LA-15 is a clone pretty much. very distinct features, almost identical.
If you read up on the history of the la-15 you'd know that it incorporates data collected from various prototypes that were built to test various design elements such as the swept wings, whilst the placement of the engine was already a preexisting design the Soviets used earlier. No doubt that they probably referenced the German design but I doubt they just "copied it" since the German design was pretty barebones as it is and without reliable data on its performance it would've been a big gamble to do that
Kurt Tank was a very talented, innovative, but also practical designer, for sure!
Like so many in germany. If there would have been no war, probably this engineers and designers would have built up the most incredible jets of that time (like the russians nowadays) and sold them massively into the world.
@@TessaractAlemania-hd7tv possibly, yes. Although Russian jets are kind of overrated, today (since you brought this one up). They used to be very innovative, for sure. Nowadays obviously the talented engineers are still there, but the execution is poor (probably not engineers' fault).
Saab 29 Tunnan was also similar to the Focke-Wulf Ta 183 Huckebein
Right, and 'tunnan' means barrel in english.
@@markkupio4472 And I still think that the Swedish team had the better "TA183" compared to the Pulki and the Mig15.
Just like the AK, the Soviets were great at copying German engineering.
The Americans also copied German engineering... and took all the German engineers back to America too!
Hey at least it's not aliens. We truly are a terrifyingly brilliant species
Listening to dark skies is like listening to a wehraboo kid read his favourite fanfic
Can I ask why the aircraft is described a political persuasion in the title? American aircraft aren’t described as Democrat or Republican (apart from the company name), nor English fighters Tory or Labour? Just asking. Calling it German might be more correct. Great video.
Superb narration and production quality, thanks for your time and effort, they keep me endlessly entertained.
I always used to wonder about those Korean War era jets...
Apparently, it was as I always suspected.
No wonder the 183 has been "hushed up".
Thank you very much for this video.
It is interesting to see what the origin of the jet engine was that powered the Russian MiG-15 jets that flew in Korea from November 30, 1950. The title of an article: "The Jet that Shocked the West" and an excerpt "(having been alerted to the fact that the U.K. Labour government wanted to improve post-war UK-Russia foreign relations)" will give some clues.
Unfortunately, a precurser to the present situation and a lesson in Russian ethics and, consequently, how one should act and respond. In this case the wishes of the governments of the UK and Germany, at different times, were similar and appear to me to have been well Intentioned though, as time has shown, misplaced.
@@PNH-sf4jz The MiG-15 was powered by the VK1 designed by Vladimir Klimov
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Hello Sandyboy as you know, the VK-1 was a little changed copy of the the Rolls Royce Nene engine. As the RD 45 the Russians increased the size of combustors and the turbine a little and finessed the airflow a bit and used their own metallurgy but before Klimov would put his name to what they'ed produced he made them change the metallurgy back to Rolls Royce's.
It's always funny to see you desperately trying to deny the famous Rolls Royce origins of the VK1 when we know that soon you'll be just as desperately claiming that the Snecma Atar is nothing other than unadulterated BMW engine.
Germany could have rolled out the F-22 Raptor; it wouldn't have mattered. They had little fuel and very few trained pilots. When Germany surrendered, they had hundreds of useable fighters remaining.
To my knowledge fuel was less a problem as synthesis of gas started in Germany from "braunkool", shortedge of pilots however.......
@@henkfokkema9528 CORRECT the jet fuel was JP-2 with Kerosene diesel mixture., this didn't compete with AVGAS supplies that LW needed . The pilots were critical but more than that their flying hours per pilot is what determined success in most dogfights.
Don't be stupid, almost every WWII German aircraft nerd knows where Kurt Tank went and what he did.
Lesson: What is happening on your airfield is as important as what you can do up in the sky.
Everyone was looking over Kurt Tank's homework. There's no shame in copying the best.
Are you saying the Nazi Party designed jets? Or was it Germans who designed jets? Calling it a Nazi jet is like calling the P-51 a Democrat fighter because FDR and his party were in power when North American Aviation designed the Mustang.
You’ve already proven you’re better than this, so stay better!
Yes, but Nazi Jet sounds more Catchy and Clickbaity for dumb people...😏🤣
Too true...unfortunately.
THANK YOU for slowing down your presentation compared to your earlier videos. I can actually follow what you're saying without reducing the playback speed.
German tech is a good one
Tank used this plane as blueprint for some airplanes he built for Argentina.
Yes, interesting read to dispel claims made here.
Imagine what Germany could have produced if they had taken Russia and captured all of its resources.
They would have needed the one thing they were already most short of: time. The Soviet army had a scorched earth policy, so Germany would have had to build or rebuild everything before they could make use of the resources they would have captured. Another year, probably two.
While the F-86 is quite different in many ways, it certainly seems like it was at least loosely influenced by the TA-183. Why didn't you mention it?
The F-86 Sabre was designed by German Fokker engineer Edgar Shmud and a team from Messerschmitt.
Leave it to German engineering to have built a Mig 15 by 1944...
Ah, leave it to Soviet engineering to build a Ta-183 by 1947
@@person0-016 yeah and if Germany had have mistakenly landed a TA-183 in Belarus in 1945 then the soviets would have had 3 more working models of them by 1946...
The Luftwaffe also developed the all wooden Me 163 Komet as a rocket powered interceptor.
Dangerous enough to fly that it was close to the Japanese Kamakazi.
@@AndyZach Fastest aircraft in the world (702 mph) until the Bell X1 broke the sound barrier in 1947.
The problem with the Komet was the special refinery that made the fuel was destroyed by Allied bombing.
@@AndyZach The British Gloster _"Meatbox"_ wins that title... over 1,000 crashed and killed 450 RAF pilots.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Over 4,000 Meteors were produced and were in service with the RAF between 1944 and 1965. This ignores the other 30 countries who flew it. So not so dangerous after all. The Komet had a habit of dissolving its pilots and no country after the war built the Komet as it was so lethal. Name me one other hydrogen peroxide powered fighter that was in service? Thought not.
@@sapphiresomeday *Yeah, 1 out of 4 crashed... the worst safety record of any jet fighter and particularly fatal considering that the Gloster **_"Meatbox"_** (as it was called by RAF pilots) couldn't even reach Mach 1.*
There is some things that are not real:
- 1st, as I read below, the aircraft never saw combat action because it was int a development phase. Argentina suffered an economic crisis between 1951 through 1955 because of drought, which made agriculture exports decrease, and with it, loss of exports income.
It was planned that Argentina will set an Rolls Royce Nene factory just close to the aircraft factory in order to make the whole aircraft in Argentina. Indeed, there are some engine factory draws/sketches in web.
The whole project could not be completed due to financial budget, but 5 aircraft could be maked.
- 2nd, the argentine decision of buying F-86 was not the proposed in the video. The coup d'etat made in 1955 had an anti peronism vision, and everything made by Peron's Goverment was cancelled. In order to cancel the Pulqui program, USA promised that they would supply the FAA requirements for 100 F-86 in order to replace the Gloster Meteor (which was not a very good aircraft). After the Pulqui II's program cancellation, the purchase order was authorized and came the first aircraft to Argentina. There are some ideas about what happened later: some says that "due to budget problems, the budget was enought to buy only 36", some others (including me) says "it was a maneuver to stop the project and to halt the argentinean idea of develop it's own aircrafts" which did not halt the argentinean design, but relegate the capability of make an indigenous fighter leading it to a very good jet trainer by it's time and nothing else.
- 3rd, the FAA (Fuerza Aerea Argentina) never used the Pulqui at 1955 coup, because it was a prototype. Then the FAA's Meteors fought against Argentine Navy's T-28 over Buenos Aires sky.
I'd love to see more content on Nazi X-Planes. Their concepts were ahead of their time and I find them quite fascinating. The ME 262 outperforms an F-84, which was the first aircraft the newly-reformed Luftwaffe used in 1956.
Did the F-84's engines die after 10 hours?
The WW2 Gloster Meteor outperformed the Me 262. So what that is saying is the F-84 was a really bad jet fighter…
(The F-84G was slightly faster than both and had basically the same range on internal fuel and both the F-84 and Meteor had a much higher rate of climb than the Me 262).
Im no 262 fan boy, but I blame the common issues with the bird on a dying war machine thanks to allied bombings on major facilities. And I know for every 1 ME262 in the sky there were 5 on the ground having their jets overhauled. I think the normal lifecycle of the Jumo was 20 hours or so before overhaul.
The 262's primary role (allegedly) was as a bomber interceptor, not a fighter. The main advantage over the meteor was it's speed, but that was about it. Every bit of performance was nearly on par with the other, but at the end of the day the Brits had overwhelming numbers of meteors compared to the 262. Plus, Sir Frank Whittle's jet engine was nearly bullet-proof from the get go
@@guerrinlove69 the jumos got overhauled every 10 hours. That was due to the low material quality. The first engines passed the 100hour test, but after they got rid of short materials (as much as possible) the engines became overhaul intense.
The F-84 was a straight wing which limited its speed and maneuvering. the F-86 was the interim answer in the Korean War
In Sweden we called it Saab 29 "Flygande tunnan", "The Flying Barrel". Guess they got the drawings cheap after the war :)
"theoretically" faster and better..are you kidding me? The me 262's destroyed almost 600 enemy airplanes in the matter of the 1,5 year. The gloster meteors destroyed 2 airplanes, one being their own airplane.
Some Meteors forced a Fiesler Storch aka "Terror of the skies" to land and finished him off with only minimal losses.
Meteors destroyed many (hundreds?) of V1 buzz bombs, many by going wing to wing and flipping the V1 which overwhelmed the V1 guidance system
542 Me262 kills apparently.
Meteors were deliberately never used over Germany and we're never involved in a dogfight so I'm not quite sure what your point is.
FWIW they are credited with destroying 14 V1s and 49 German aircraft in ground attack raids.
@@robertmarsh3588 Well first Meteor's were crap , so no wonder they never used it against other planes or jets . A breakfast for 262's ...
@@michaelpielorz9283 hehehe..cute story, but my argument still stands
They also didn't have the fuel to make the planes fly, or the pilots, so...
....not just aircraft,....the worlds technology derives from Germany & some other European Countries.
An American officer, collecting weapons after the war, was told by a German crew that they could change the engine on a 262 in half an hour, even in the field, if needed! So the low endurance wasn't a problem, only spares. I wonder how long it took to change an engine on a Meteor? And Kurt Tank was the most gifted designer of the war, making some of the best functioning fighters, FW190/TA152, but luckily at that time Germany had neigther pilots left nor the fuel. If a Lockheed Lightning had met top German pilots on an equal level, it wouldn't stand a chance, so the "Forktailed Devil" is a later myth made by Americans. Only the fact that it could fly and the Germans couldn't, made it a threat
The Brits and Tanks need their lies to live.
If Germany had managed to be producing jet aircraft just a few years earlier, it's very possible that all of Europe would be speaking German today.
As was indicated in the dialogue, the difference between winning and losing, success and faillure, can be a time span of mere days, weeks, months and sometimes years, in any war. I guess this is why I am amused at the avid optimism of pro-Russian supporters 'waving the checkered flag', to signify the end of the race, at what may be, this relatively early, or even possibly late stage of the WAR, being waged by Russia against Ukraine. It is also worth acknowledging that the real Nazis were ahead of the game for much of WWII. It was in the later stages that the tide turned, in favour of the allies, which at that time included Russia and China.
Their were said to be plans, in the event of the successful invasion of Auatralia, by the Japanese during WWII, for the established German immigrant population there, to cross the Bass Strait to relocate to Tasmania. On a trip through the centre of Australia, some years ago, I was surprised to learn of how far south of the town of Darwin, in Australia, that the Japanese aircraft had actually dropped bombs, including Darwin, Broome and deep into the Northern Territory, of which Darwin was the major town, with a pre-war population of just under 6,000 people.
It is interesting when considering the countries that the Lend-Lease progam was used to assist during WWII, among them, Russia and China. Indeed the picture of allies and curent and possible enemy forces is now so completely different and with regard to some countries, thankfully, reversed.
I already heard of it. Cool video nevertheless. Just one thing - The Mk in Mk.108 doesn't stand for "Mark", it stands for "Maschinenkanone".
The meteor was a poor copy of the German plane. The Italians where about to finish they single engine jet but the war ended, the Americans took every thing home
Hmmm looks like the Saber and the early Mig. Wonder where they got those ideas..
why is a Brit calling aluminium aluminum? 🤣
Interesting video, this was a WWII Nazi jet that I had never heard of before.
There's some great plastic model kits in 1/48th scale available , if you're interested . Also , why not have a look out for what is known as 'Luft 46' . Lots of wild , crazy designs . Some only designs on paper , some model and full-size mock-ups and wind-tunnel designs , but definitely some made !
Maybe not related to the Mig-15.
The Lavochkin La-15 on the other hand... 🤔
Everybody who want to see and admire the Pulqui II, can go to the National Air Museum located at Moron city, in Buenos Aires province, Argentina...
I love all of your channels! Thanks for making all these great videos!
Fascinating how RUclipsrs know what I am aware of or not. "Here's something you've never heard of!" Really?
Mig 1.0 - we got the rocket scientists, the Soviets got this tech.
hey I'm early, hope everyone has a good day
Thank you very much for your video. Very interesting and informative. I remember very well the Pulqui, I was born in Argentina in December 1945. When I was a young child I had a plastic kit of this airplane.
hello jorge mosca - are there still this plastic kits buyable?
Use to fly the sims ,the Huckebein was one of the simulation , the ME 262 was a delight to fly ,there was a crazy rocket plane too ,can't remember much about it ,it was tested by a female test pilot . The Mig and Sabre were both highly influenced by the Huckebein ,the Mig was really a great fly ,had smarter air brakes than the Sabre ,but in combat the Sabre had the edge , very difficult to land ,because of the speed and second rate air brakes.
Me 163, flown by the famous german female pilot Hanna Reitsch, which also flew the first german helicopter
Thanks for slowing down the voice-over.
Cherminy ran out of the even more critical Aluminium for their aircraft, years before running out of Luminum.
Germany produced 10 times the amount of Aluminum that Britain did during WW2.
Most post-war aircraft in the US and USSR are based on German technology. You just have to see how similar most airplanes were back then in such a small span of time. All of it came from captured German engineers by the Allies.
It baffles me how almost everything we take for granted in modern warfare comes from an evil fascist state.
the german language really lends itself to scientific thought. its very direct quick and to the point. the opposite of french which is all about social finery. berlin before the wars was a center of intellectual achievement a new renaissance was happening then. the nazis had many flaws but they had a few points in their favor for innovative thinking.
they were open to alternate ideas of how things worked not dogmatic. this included consciousness studies the other western powers thought to be silly but proved useful. by searching out the truth about the human past in tibet and developing a whole alternate way of looking at things they found novel solutions.
some based on our ancient high tech past civ. some say they even made contact with lets say covert groups on earth the west still does not admit in public to. if hitler didnt go off the deep end and blame the jews and take on the whole world all at once he might have made germany the superpower today that the united states became.
those are big ifs though. 2cts anyway...look into the work of joseph p farrel for more....his site giza death star
Not remotely correct. UK and France developed the modern tank. UK innovated aircraft carrier landings. "assault rifles" prototypes were first tried in France and Russia in WW1. Jet aircraft and RADAR was separately developed by multiple countries in secret all at the same time, and UK and US shared their designs with each other. Almost all the tech from Germany was a technological dead end. Both Russia and the US were really after the rocket and missile programs more than anything else, and those were of limited help.
@@muxite6035 Changing over to another viable energy source does not happen overnight. Other countries buy Russian gas too.
Говорить,что МиГ-15 имеет корни этого самолета , это как сравнивать АК47 и МР-43. Стреловидное крыло нужно для достижения большой скорости. Так как двигатель сзади - кабина перенесена вперед, для лучшего обзора. И так далее.Посмотрите как похожи последние российские,китайские и американские истребители.
Looks like everybody’s got some of THAT technology