'The TRUTH about audio plugins'.. Is this the worst audio video on youtube?
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- Опубликовано: 27 апр 2021
- Audio engineer REACTS to 'The truth about audio plugins' | Is this the worst audio video on youtube?
This video perpetuating the idea that all analog gear is better than digital plugins ( • The Truth About Audio ... ) has been doing the rounds on a lot of audio forums and I felt that I had to address a lot of the purposeful inaccuracies and narrow minded views and opinions voiced by this mixing engineer of 15 years. As a youtuber with an audio channel based around testing hardware vs plugins in an objective manner I think its important that topics surrounding the analog vs digital debate is discussed objectively so beginner music producers and audio engineers at the start of their audio journey have all of the facts delivered in a subjective medium so there is no bias to be distracted with.
The original video discusses waves l2 ultramaximiser, waves audio plugins, universal audio plugins, why he believes plugins cant replicate analog circuitry, as well as lengthy discussion into phase and how it affects the stereo image.
I am giving my opinions and reflections on each point made as there are many points I feel are very one sided. There is no talk of other plugin developers ie acustica audio plugins (convolution sampling), plugin alliance, fabfilter, noiseash, slate digital etc)
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FYI for anybody wondering I did get a reply from him in the comments below. I tried to help him and give him some advice about moving forward but he's not listening and instead still defending his entire video. he's not willing to accept anything he was called out for and just spouting the same BS. He wants a proper rebuttal but I don't see the point in kicking the same dirt around. It's boring and already been addressed and I didn't think I'd have to repeat myself after this video and especially after all the comments on this.. But the guy is completely set on defending his video which.. I know.. I know. He's entitled to.. But.. (sigh)
To me it's almost like a badly behaved barky jack Russel who keeps biting at your leg after telling him off for barking at everybody. You tell him NO.. Stop barking .. Your doing everybody's box in! But it continously keep coming back to try and gnaw at your leg. He's not listening, doesn't want to listen or is listening and still wants to push his youtube 'fame' haha. So to stop having my leg gnawed at I've hidden him from the channel for any future comments as he's just gonna make it worse for himself.
So just so everyone knows. This isn't now 'beef' and a YT war of 'analog guy vs digital guy' regardless of what he says. I'm not 14 and this is not MSN 😂😂 The video was the issue, I called it out and put it in line so people new to the industry could see past the BS. Videos like this that hit the algorithm give audio youtubers a bad name and only perpetuates the notion that we are all click baity noobs only in it for views.
So there won't be a response to any video he makes. I'm not interested. He can slate me and my channel to bits if he likes.. Whatever, but to me my job here is done and we move on. I now have to get back to the fun of shooting out plugins against each other and looking into more hardware gear for comparisons. It's not all doom and gloom you know haha 🤓
Want to help me create more analog and digital comparisons? Check out the patreon campaign 🤓
www.patreon.com/mixingwedesdays
Love your sense of humor,!!! Great video. ..
Thank Levon 🤓 I'm like this every day but it can get me in a bit of trouble sometimes 😅
@@PaulThird 😊👏
You tried.... Lol. Let him go on his imaginary crusade. There certainly is some hardware I'd love to own if I could afford it!
I still can't believe it 😂 if that was me I'd lick my wounds, see where I went wrong and do one of two things;
Change the video title and thumbnail to 'the truth about waves plugins' as it would massively bring down the heat from everybody and actually make more sense as we all know he's referring to waves in this entire video but blanketing all plugins.
Or
Forget about the whole stupid 'analog is better always' narrative and go back to making videos about yamaha gear with his new subscriber base to grow his channel.
He did say he was going to do hardware vs digital so would that be good.. Even said he was going to shootout it his real SSL E console strip vs the plugins.. But that was 9 months ago. He says at one point he's a hobbyist but then goes in the huff when you say he's a hobbyist. Gives me a sore head man 😂
OK, Soooooo... I own one of those companies that makes the spendy analog and the plugins. I also know and am friends/friendly with half the other companies that do (we're a small, friendly-competition industry full of eccentrics). I gotta set the record straight on a few points here:
1) analog companies who license their brand to, e.g., UAD, *absolutely* have input, control, and veto-power over the plugin's sound, behavior etc. The folks who designed these analog pieces are fanatics, I don't know a single one who would remotely contemplate a deal where they just hand over their brand image and flagship products and say "here you go, do with it what you will." That's just... not the reality.
2) phase is a *massive* part of the sound of analog eq, and is why the high frequencies on the sweeter analog eq's has a texture that plugin eq's don't. Doesn't mean you have to prefer or even like that analog vibe, but it's a sound you can't get in the box as of the day I'm typing this. For processes that get their sound from non-linearities (namely, compression and distortion), transient response and clipping behaviors dominate the equation (literally!) 😛
3) so many of those hits mixed in the box were tracked by geniuses and are generally printed thru some serious analog chains. IME, when you print a vocal thru a 1073 or an Earlybird with some top end lifted and one or two stages of compression for tone, you can do damn near anything you want to that vocal track ITB and it will sound glorious. But if you track that same vocal thru a built in preamp in a budget interface, you will have to work verrrrrry hard to make it glow like the spendy chain, and it may never glow like that chain, and it will be very easy to make it sound like ass. This is what Andrew Scheps was referring to with his comment about "once it's converted to digital". Internet BS myth is that tracking 'clean' is the standard 'pro' workflow, but I've been in enough rooms with (and even more conversations with) enough people doing high level work to know that this simply is not the case. The conventional wisdom is you front-load your tone, from there ITB always wins hands down because 'workflow', and when you're paid by major labels to mix the songs that pay their rent, "efficient repeatable workflow" is everything.
Gregory you're a gentleman and a legend. I love your channel. I've been saving for one of your analogue claraphonic EQs even though I bought the plugin because... Well, I'm one of those eccentric, obsessive sound guys that just wants to collect awesome stuff.
I hope one day I can get a mix critique from you. Please keep up the good work.
Greg
Thanks for setting the record straight. I thought brand licensing was different from endorsing which is crazy to me with UAD as they can sound identical and or better (both subjective) in the hardware comparisons I've done so far which is crazy that a hardware brand would allow a plug to sound so incredibly close.
My only concern is the fact that there are many licensed products I've tried that don't really sound anything like the hardware (waves being the biggest example). I'm just a bit confused why a manufacturer would have input into something and allow it to go out and it doesn't really do the hardware justice, thus not have a great impact on the brand.. No? Or perhaps its OK if the plugin gives you a taste of the hardware.. Therefore justifying the hardware price.. Just purely speculation on my part though.
Just confuses me a bit as the lines seem blurred to me in terms of wanting to achieve the same sound as the hardware and taking the $$$
In terms of the rest you won't find argument from me. I trust the man behind the clariphonic and the rest of the plugins. As a hardware and plugin maker I trust your experience.
I think from what the comments have told me. Hybrid is now the norm with hardware tracking being the preferred option to capture the sound going in and plugins being the preferred option in mixing with hardware being an added option to get certain sounds. Both being used to great effect 🤓
So if I can gather it correctly. Your saying that in your opinion, plugins can enhance and glorify an already well recorded track. So whilst hardware will probably always be the preferred option for tracking, the right plugins used professionally are not going to make that sound any worse or degrade the quality? Just as its something that the original video claims that is the opposite compared to hardware. In my opinion after its tracked, printed and in your session either will give you the results you need to glorify that track. You can use both 🤓
He'll argue that this comment proves that hardware is always best as 'why don't you just track with plugin emulations if they sound identical'
For me, I've done shootouts (not all) where in my opinion the differences are so marginal that it sounds like 2 hardware units side by side and the differences you are hearing could be likened to that of tolerances of 2 hardware units. I've done some tests where in my opinion I and others actually prefer the plugin over the hardware.
On the subject of phase is it more of a subtle thing in most cases or quite an audible difference to yourself in most cases or just certain units? I've just always wondered what was the most important in terms of plugins sounding like hardware. Again only reason I'm asking as I've done shootouts where it's been very close and others and I have actually preferred the plugin.
I guess what I'm trying to ask in a very long winded way (aspergers is a bitch) is would you say that in your experience..
Plugins can sound like hardware. Even if not exactly 100% like for like the plugins still sound like hardware. If I can liken it to the same way a £500 hardware clone can't fully replicate the £4000 original. Just like plugins there are differences but would you say that if plugins can sound like hardware then what's the difference in buying a hardware clone when you can buy a plugin that actually samples or closely emulates the original.
At that point, the £500 hardware clone and the £100 plugin both don't sound exactly like or better the original hardware.. So surely you are only buying the clone just cause its hardware.. And then the analog vs digital debate ultimately falls apart as they are both just tools trying to emulate the same thing. The analog clone can't replicate the analog unit which is what analog luddites complain about the software. At that point you have 2 tools that are missing that '5%'.. So what's the difference?
I'm just trying to summarise the points you have made so I know if I've taken them in right 🤓
Appreciate the time you took to make a response 🤓
Love the channel!!
being in the same industry, +1 for that.
Just as a side note Greg. The point you made about phase. Is it only the eq's that are sweet in the top end that you would say is the only thing that can't be properly replicated ITB due to the texture the phase relationship results in i.e. Rupert Neve's silk, clariphonic silk/sheen, maag 40k air band etc
Just as with silika you say this;
"After 9 years in the plugin game, Kush can finally say without exaggeration that, at least for one particular flavor of vintage compressors that clip beautifully, we have completely closed the Analog/Digital gap. SILIKA is not ‘close’, it’s not ‘different but just as good’. It’s ‘Sonically Identical’ to the types of hardware it’s modeled after."
So modern day plugins can indeed sound like their hardware counterparts but in certain circumstances when it comes to super high end in hardware, the plugs struggle to nail that phase relationship but when the high end really isn't in play, like silika here with diode bridge compression, you don't have those issues?
So recreating phase is a massive issue, but only in certain hardware units?
I'm just trying to learn more and piece it all together incase I don't get a reply 🤓
I have a rule on what I watch here on RUclips: If the title is anything like “The Truth Of…” I immediately click on that menu that allows me to tell RUclips to not recommend that channel to me anymore.
The fact is, most of RUclips right now is pretty much clickbait trash.
I do that on videos that have thumbnails of some douchebag making a surprised/amazed face. Had to unsub from Linus Tech Tips for this reason (and the constant non-stop ads)
"The fact is, most of RUclips right now is pretty much clickbait trash", so true Callista! I've been thinking the same thing as lately I'm recommended nothing ;but click bait, reaction videos and grown men running TMZ style RUclips channels.
The only thing worse than a "Truth about..." video (which is usually just a bunch of misinformation and personal opinions) is a reaction video to a "Truth about..." video (which is usually just another load of misinformation and personal opinions).
Man there is something beautiful about an Irish/Scottish/British man ranting about something, I love it!
Us Scots do love a rant haha
@@PaulThird Canadian here, I love a good Scots rant.
Pause
As long as he dosnt tell Kirk “we can’t do it capn we don’t have to power’
@@furryz666 that’s the best though
I find that whenever an article, book or video starts with "The Truth About...." it tells you nothing of the sort.
It's a youtube algorithm thing. For some reason it ranks very high as a search term
@@PaulThird Similar to "[insert profession / demographic] REACTS TO [insert topic / song / music genre / video by other RUclipsr]" ;) But it's fine, yours is reasonable and interesting, unlike 90% of "reaction" videos that are soul-crushingly dull and repetitive.
Thanks 🤓 The whole youtube thing is annoying but if you don't follow its path then the videos won't go anywhere. I had to change the thumbnail after the first day as it didn't like it and started slowing it down at the start would you believe it haha
Yup, usually there is a huge underlying...lie.
I started learning audio engineering 25 years ago in a studio with a Fostex 16 track and a small bunch of outboard like SPX90s. In my A-Level, we were still being taught how to splice quarter inch tape on a Revox B77. Fast forward a few years and I was using ADATs and only in 2001 did I first use DAWs. The whole plug-in / outboard thing is like the whole analogue / digital debate. We're at a point now where both are fine and if you can combine the 2, even better. Having been away from engineering for so long but recently getting back into it via learning from CLA and Andy Wallace's tutorials, they're making hit records with both plug-ins and outboard. What surprised me most was that they are much more conservative in their processing than I thought. Both can produce killer mixes by using the same SSL channel strip on every mix, some 480Ls and PCM42s.
When I bought a real Juno 60, the tracks I recorded made the hair on my arms stand up. Those strings sounds brought tears to my eyes. When I sold it and bought Tal-U-no's Juno 60 plugin, I got convenience, but none of the emotional reactions I had hoped for. I can not sell my plugin and get my money back--I can get my money back with hardware.
Thats another discussion. Analogue instruments certainly still sound better than digital instruments in many cases. This video is addressed to mixing tools, which is a far less complex interaction.
I've literally just stumbled on this kid, I'm a professional producer of 20 years, he's fucking spot on and officially in my cool book!
You spend ten million on the best gear, then the average listener listens on £40 headphones.
Very true haha
Or on a phone with no headphones!!!!!!!!
@@blueslsd Indeed!
SOME Human beings gonna cargo cult and go all religious about gear. CLA and the Audiophiles over there. Yeah yeah. The rest of us realize that this is a disposable product that someone is paying $0.000000000000000003 per stream, and we save our remaining F______ for something that matters.
$40 headphones and lossy compressed audio files. But if you don't spend $13,000 on an analog compressor, your track just won't pop, noob. Aye carumba.
Do you know how absolutely hilarious it would be to do a challenge where you put the plug in against “the real thing” but “the real thing” is just a gutted unit with electronics inside of it to run the plug in. Have them listen to the plug in vs the plug in disguised as the real thing. Then after they give all these answers about how they can tell there is a difference, reveal that they are both plug ins.
"but there is still analog circuitry" 🤣
Lol
So they invented DAWs because it was cheaper, right?
I suppose they invented 4K digital televions because it was a cheaper way to make Black and White TV as well...
Gee, I really want to see the 400 tracks Analog Tape that guy uses.
I think what he forgets is that software was created because there was a demand for it. Technology is created as long as its going to be consumed. These analog engineers were asking for less noise, more consistency and linearity. They wanted the option to have super clean audio and more high end. If analog was the best option then why ask for new technology to be implemented alongside it. People get in this whole fuss of digital replacing analog. It was made to coinside with analog. Digital in its nature is consistent and can give exact and consistent results. Analog in with non linearities and temperaments is not 100% consistent and results can vary dependent on wear, humidity and also variation in unit's. Lots of things.
This whole thing that it's either one or the other is bull as by nature either can't really replicate what the other does.. So by forcing one option you are actually limiting yourself, your client and your audience
@@PaulThird
Also, there is an assumption he makes that invalidates all the "argument".
He speaks like plugins are meant to replicate the hardware, and that's that, their only purpose.
Can I have a hardware version of the decapitator, just to say one?
Can't he see the potential of manipulating sounds with only code lines?
Will the imaginary hardware be better anyway?
Honestly his argument has more holes in it than the ryder cup😂
Tbh they invented 4k out of interest in what's possible and the others paid for that research to market their products with something that's borderline irrelevant to most of their users in practice. Bigger numbers look better even if they have no practical benefit. But you could make an analogy to digital banks over physical banks. Convenient to the user (cheaper for them).
@ArcaneAudio
LOL, no.
People are often tempted to rationalize the amount of money they've spent on hardware when confronted with a cheaper plug-in that delivers practically indistinguishable results.
Hes done lots of videos on yamaha gear so I don't actually know how high priced his stuff is haha
And all they had to say was "I just like using my knobby box, it also looks nice", there's no need to explain or try to make an argument how it's better in absolute terms and measures.
Absolutely agree. It's the definitive right or wrong attitude that kills me. We're dealing with art here. Music and audio is one of the most subjective art forms known to man.
@@kylechandler4929 Yeah, right.
@@kylechandler4929 You distinguish between them in a blind test?
I was just talking about this with a producer. Plugins. We can argue all day about their quality. But they sound good enough to the ear for kids to listen. And a computer, an Apollo, and some good plugins are cheaper than a good guitar and amp these days.
It hardly matters what is best. Kids can produce Ocean Eyes in their bedroom now.
Totally. Drivers license by olivia rodrigo was number 1 and sounds great.
'Despite his love of analogue, McCarthy has, like many of his colleagues, come to the conclusion that it’s no longer practical to work purely on analogue. “I don’t want to spend hours recalling on a desk, so I am only incorporating analogue pieces that fit in my workflow. I have a hybrid setup in my studio. My ‘All Groups’ in Pro Tools go via my Apogee Symphony into the Dangerous Music 2‑Bus+ summing box'
As much as he still prefers analog he still mixed it hybrid and nobody listened to that record going.. "that's hybrid.. I can hear there's plugins in this mix'
Ocean eyes as well. The engineer nixed with lots of UAD. Stuck a 1073 on loads of track's just for the colour not doing anything. It's just a part of mixing now. Use whatever tools give the you the best results at the best possible workflow.
You must be living on the moon. An apollo interface is between 600 and 3000 dollars. It's luxury. Plugins are usually 800 to 2000 if you buy a few. A guitar is 209 bucks with an amp lol . Apollo is for Professionals . Btw kids have a much better hearing than you up to 18khz. At your age say 40 to 60, i am guessing, you can't even hear over 15K. You'll be tweaking that HF knob imagining things LMAO...that's for real...
@@levondarratt787, that is why I took pains to say, “Good guitar and amp.”
I don’t know what high frequency has to do with the rest. Most great engineers do their best work after they lose hearing in the highest frequencies.
@@toribarron5700 yes of course guitars and amps can be in the thousands and cost more than a car even. .. my point is that some of these uad amp sim pmugins are as expensive as a cheap Hardware amp . I would like that to come down in price, coz it adds up
@@levondarratt787, ah! Sorry. Gotcha! Guitar plugins are crazy expensive. Or terrible. Like plugin makers know guitarists are most likely to be gear heads!
Great job on your video!! Thanks for giving people multiple perspectives. Educational videos like this need to be made more often.
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The truth about plugins? They enable me to mix audio for customers on a tight budget and who need multiple revisions.
Working with analog gear is an absolute pain in the buttocks. In fact, if I could afford it, I would only use analog equipment when recording and mastering. It'd be a different story if musicians/producers weren't so wish-washy, but the reality is they are and they don't have high enough budgets to justify the annoyance of 10+ analog revisions.
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You summed it up well ! They are all tools, don't be afraid to experiment and use what works best for you ! My god how I agree with this ! Another thing: Does the client/band/audience like the mix/master and how the song sounds ? Than it's good and nobody cares how it was done !
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Great video. Totally agree. After 33 yrs engineering, mixing and producing, I'm now blessed with amazing software and the sheer bliss of total mix recall in the box for small changes, and I can just cherry-pick analogue gear for tracking if I want to. Get a great recording on the way in with great room acoustics, mics and preamps if it's a live part, and then it's pure non-destructive bliss in the mix. If anyone wants to fiddle for hours to get the settings back up on an analogue board or outboard, repair a tape dropout, set up midi mutes, wait for tape to rewind, clean tape heads, fix the patch-bay, etc, etc, knock yourself out! I don't miss any of that crap.
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The very first plug-in delay I used (c 1999) I captured myself saying a word and it was constantly repeating with 100% feedback. I started talking to my friend then forgot about the delay and went out shopping and when I came home, it was still repeating with perfect clarity. Would any analogue delay be so perfect?
Bang on mate! I'm no majorly acclaimed producer but, in a fact a singer/songwriter/guitarist. I was on the road and in studios at 18 and still am at it at 59. I own a lovely old Trident console, Focusrite producer pack, Neumann mics, you get the picture.
I've obviously been doing this decades before the advent of plug-ins. I've sat beside, spoken with, talking at length with some well known and acclaimed engineers and producers.
My point is..I cannot tell the difference with a lot of these plug-ins. I own a load of UA, waves etc.. In fact, I've been in the studio with original old units, of which would generate undesirable noise at times when power was not so constant or were not at a good temperature.
Some of these analogue units can be quite temperamental!.. I've heard an original LA2A and Pultec sound noticeably different from another identical looking one on the same recording! Yet I can run 5 instances of a plug-in version and it's predictably identical!
If I were a billionaire, I'd more than likely own more analogue units, because I like to touch and look at them, but I certainly don't like the maintenance side of it! Thank you.
Id do the same if I was a billionaire to be fair. Instead of going on lavish holidays in my bugatti I'd be a hermit shooting out analog and plugins in my acoustically treated underground bunker 😂
@@PaulThird 🤣
@Tony Adams it’s so refreshing to hear from another long-time songwriter/musician/producer over 50 who is NOT an Audio Luddite. What is it with people and their inability to embrace change after they turn 30? Like you, I started in analog studios, and with the current state of digital audio, I wouldn’t go back to an all analog workflow if my life depended on it. By the way, just because we’re not famous or on the cover of Sound On Sound, that doesn’t mean we have to justify our experience & opinion to anyone. I don’t care if you’re an acclaimed producer or not, your comment proved your experience on its own. Just sayin!
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The comment section of this video has probably been one of the best for young engineers to read. Guys with tons of experience giving their input and showing the reality of where its trully at.
Honestly even I've had comments arguing I have no right to talk about it at all as I've not had the experience of working fully analog like yourselves and currently don't work out a studio. It's ridiculous. All you need to do is to actually speak to other engineers with experience and they'll soon paint you a true picture. Experience is experience and its extremely valuable.
My lecturers back in the day were all working engineers before joining education. One was a live sound engineer for early nirvana and thin lizzy. The other engineered kt turnstalls debut album. They never told us that until we were ready to leave and stated that it didn't matter who they worked with.. It was the experience they had mattered and that's all they wanted us to focus on.
I still remember that conversation fondly.. One thing never left me
'Paul, don't chase after the big bands. Just cause you work with one big band doesn't make you better than the engineer down the road who has worked with 20 unsigned local artists. A good record is a good record regardless of the artist. You may think that the artist is the thing that makes you but what you've now done is created an expectation that you've got to live up to. You cant all of a sudden start being inconsistent as your career will be over before it's even begun. That guy down the road mixing whoever he can has had mistakes and learned from them with every mix he's done. He hasn't forced an expectation upon himself that he may not live up to. But what you will find that when the time comes and he gets his shot he's ready and has the experience to absolutely nail it. He's the guy that in 10 years will have artists chasing him, not the other way around'
Seriously.. It was just me and another student in the studio that day and I think even he will remember that conversation. Will always stay with me 🤓
@@PaulThird 😂🤣
Very good video and analysis mate, keep the good work!!!
Thanks mate 🤓
As someone who owns the plug-in versions and hardware versions of universal audios La2a, 1176 and 610. There is a noticeable difference. To me the hardware is easier to dial in and sounds more 3D, like it has more depth. The plug-ins (a great bargain for the price) sound more 2d and like well, emulations of the hardware. At least in my studio, the hardware always wins.
Also I’ve owned an L2 hardware unit and they are great units with the ability to unlink the channels (dual mono) something the plugin doesn’t do, and this made a big difference. Also the midrange on the hardware L2 is great. There’s a reason why you still find them in most mastering studios, even at 21 years old.
I say, own or have long term access to great hardware units and you’ll hear the difference clear as day. That is, if you’ve got “the ears” as you say.
Honestly. If you've ever got time and a way of trying them out. Check out Tim Pethericks nebula stuff. It's a pain in the arse as you need to own nebula but his plugin compressors are the only I've heard that better the hardware to my ears. Tim sampled universal audio la2a & 1176 as well as many others. I know quite a few Grammy winners that have sold the hardware and moved to Tim's stuff. He's got that 3d low mid weight that so many plugins have and they have more versatility than the hardware as he splits everything up so you have a PRE, comp and clipper. It's super impressive. I akways urge analog guys to try them out as they are unlike algo plugs as its convolution. Acusticas comps are hit and miss but tim spends so much time on the attack envelopes that he won't put it out until the engineer that owns the gear is happy to say its there.
That's UA hardware vs slate and Tim's opto 32 🤓
ruclips.net/video/ZqyNNPXRXu0/видео.html
Its still subjective at the end of the day but definitely worth looking into 🤓
Bravo. I am so thankful to have emulations of classic hardware. And I never need to worry about Fairchild's and Vari Mu's being temperamental. Also, nice Gretsch.
I try to get it in all my videos haha
@@PaulThird please keep it up! It’s beautiful!
I would put it this way: if your biggest problem is that your mixes, your masters, and your productions are missing that *analog magic,* you've got some *amazing* mixes, masters, and productions!! In other words, when you get to the point that you absolutely *need* analog hardware, you'll be at the point where you know it and you can afford it. ☺️
Even better you can just stream and print analog gear over the Internet now so if I want a 33609 on the print bus then I can do it. If I want a fairchild on a vocal..take me 5 minutes. Gotta love technology!
@@PaulThird wait, you can run stems thru a real fairchild through the Internet? ....link pls...
mixanalog.com/products/fairchild
@@PaulThird 😯
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Also, a good friend of mine who is a great engineer compared the UAD Curvebender to his hardware version.
He sold the hardware.
I've not tried the UAD curvebender yet 🤓 Ive been using acustica coffee for that but I definitely need to check it out. Is it definitely UAD or softube just as I know UAD has softube stuff as well
@@PaulThird Both are very good man, see mixbus tv.. He uses softube chandler plugins as well and says he loves them.
Thanks 🤓
Great video. Beyond even hardware vs plugins, would you say mixing and mastering should solely be done in Protools? Or are DAWs like Reaper, Ableton, and FL studios capable of producing great quality as well? Would love to know since I am recently getting into this side of music production.
It's all about your workflow. I was taught on Pro tools so I know it like the back of my hand. Easy workflow for me. However it's cpu with plugins is pretty poor. If you you are using acustica and stuff you'll get more plugs out of reaper. I know a lot of producers like logic and a lot of dance/edm guys I know use ableton. Studio one is becoming more and more popular. I'd say it depends on how you want to use it. I like protools due to its simplicity. I see it more as a mixers tool and less of a production tool but that's just me. Any would do the job for you. Whatever you pick you'll adapt to and learn how you want to use it. Probs just go for the cheapest you can 🤓 but id still suggest looking on youtube and looking at the layouts when people are using them and stuff
@@PaulThird Cool! I usually produce and make beats in Ableton myself and do my mixdowns in Ableton. But I was always wondering if using another daw for mixing and mastering would be good as well. I’ve got a lot more things to think about now then but atleast in a good way. Thank you!
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Plugins are advancing past anything analog could do. All the top mixers use Soothe.
I did have a section talking about soothe, Gulfoss & trackspacer and how there is no hardware comparative. I edited it out as I thought the video was too long 🙈 haha its true though. Plugins are getting smarter by the month and offering more options than ever before. Allowing you to create possibilities not avaliable in the anolog domain. Combining different pre's with different eq's and compressors, reconstructing the elements to allow almost a frankenstein unit. It's a great time for experimentation 🤓
The best analog modeled plugins are between 90-95% there in terms of emulation. They may get to 100% at some point in the future, they may not, but that missing last 5-10% has little to no impact on everyday listeners. I would like to see this guy take the top 20 songs on Spotify right now and correctly guess which were mixed all analog, ITB, or hybrid.
No chance haha 😂
I'm not calling you wrong but I really would like to know myself. We usually see top engineers using plugins in front of 100k board.
From what I've found that is the board they've normally tracked the record on. Romesh dodangoda for example (bring me the horizon, motorhead etc) he told me that he uses his console purely for tracking but mixes mostly in the box and he has a TON of outboard gear. I absolutely get that as realistically if your tracking big records having a console has a massive advantage for recording
@@PaulThird But, at that point, you'd just be using the console's preamps. I guess in a lot of those cases, the person has decided that the benefits aren't enough to justify the extra effort and expense.
“90-95% in terms of emulation” how can you put numbers like that? Can we measure it?
WFT dude, how did I just notice our channel? Just subbed.
Thanks so much 🤓
I love this channel. I don't know how I missed so much information before watching your videos, Paul. We can't trust people who don't show facts or tests!
🤜🤛
I jumped right into the box and have been making a living ever since. The most important recording/mixing/mastering tool is your brain.
🙌🙌
Plugins can very well emulate phase. And they do. In fact the most simple filter algorithm intiates phase shift, similar to what it does in the analog world. Don’t know what that guy is talking about. The only obstracles between making the ‘perfect’ analog model is processing power and engineering skills. And both of these aspects are already at a high level and constantly increasing. But Thanks for bringing it up, Paul. Enjoying your channel a lot. :)
Thanks for confirming that though. The phase thing was the only thing I didn't know enough about but had my hunches as they get pretty damn close these days haha
Fantastic! Warren (Produce Like a Pro) has a good video when he compairs a record with a chep set and a expansive one (in a Sunset Studio room). Same room, same players, same recording; just put the microphones in the same place. After this, he makes some aplications with plugins. No way... is veeeeeeery close one recording of another! It sounds diferent, but veeeeery nice too! The secret? The instruments, the players, the room and to know where to put the microphones! The other secret in the mix? To know how to do it and how to use the plugins.
Great video, dude!
🤓🤓🤓
Warrens channel is darn good. And he's obviously a super nice, helpful guy.
People didn't covet the SSL console because it coloured the sound. They coveted it because it was the most transparent. The Beatles and Pink Floyd and Yes and Led Zeppelin weren't choosing which analogue gear to use based on whether it coloured the sound or not. They were universally choosing the most TRANSPARENT technology in an effort to get rid of hiss, noise, distortion, wow, flutter etc etc. All those things that hardware advocates say makes the hardware better are actually what makes it worse.
A nice room, a great mic and something amazing to stick in front of the mic. That's how the great albums of the pre-digital days were recorded. The only job the engineers of that day asked their technology to do was to get out of the damned way!
And now we have idiots trying to add it all back!
FFS!
I was really into it all back then but it just bored me to tears now. I hardly use any emulations now
@@PaulThird Same here. I avoid them like the proverbial.
Also worth remembering what's being recorded in the first place. Great songs and performances can be recorded on terrible gear and people will still want to listen. The reverse is rarely true
Very true 🤓
Loved this Paul! Your reaction: 100% "on point" and also very funny! Soothe is amazing btw, although I've just seen that Baby Audio have released a plug in called "smooth operator" at a really great price - looks to do something similar to soothe, but as it only came out yesterday - no RUclips v's reviews yet... something for you maybe mate?😉
I actually was just speaking to somebody about it haha they said it's not as good but does come at a good time as the soothe comparison was coming soon 😜
@@PaulThird haha fantastic mate! Looking forward to that good sir! Thanks for creating these videos Paul! Always great to watch!
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That plugin isn't that good, not even remotely on the level of dseq, soothe or tdr nova ge
Quoting a friend who did a test on this plugin: "First of all, it's of very limited functionality - it controls only two bandwidths. For example, TDR Nova GE controls six, not to mention that it automatically detects them and adjusts Q factors and max. gain reduction for each bandwidth after spectrum analysis scrutiny. None of this happens here.
The left and right side 'nodes' are just slant controls.
As far as I could see 'focus' is just another name for both bandwidths simultaneous gain control.
Technically it is pretty poor, THD is very high (depending on settings, averaging -50dB, and at maximum reduction @1kHz the total distortion gets even up to 0.3%. Shows a plethora of irregular notches in oscilloscope test. The attack/release response is non-linear and heavily frequency dependent.
It can not be compared to DSEQ, Soothe or TDR Nova GE in any respect."
Nonetheless feel free to test it out for urself and be sceptical about my opinion.
OMG someone also fae Dundee! Cracking video mate! 👍
Analogue gear has two huge advantages that I can see - it's the feel of the dials and ease of rapidly finding and changing settings instinctively. The only reason I miss my old analogue stuff is that when there's a screen I tend to get drawn into looking at the numbers instead of just adjusting things until it sounds guid.
Well, that, and the fact I quite like being surrounded by miles and miles of cabling - kind of feels a bit like being in a mad professor's lab.
I love digital for the fact that you don't have to worry about dodgy cables picking up mains hum and you don't need to find additional plug sockets for each effect.
What I hate about digital is when a Windows update causes issues and I have to spend the entire night tracking down which driver needs to be changed to fix the problem. (that's why I track on a standalone Tascam multitrack and transfer to the computer for mixing).
Are you engineering in Dundee or have you moved?
@@PaulThird I moved a couple of miles outside the town a while back but not far outside. Obviously because of covid I've been doing everything remotely for the past year but that's quite good in its own way because finding new ways to do stuff can break old (lazy 😁) habits.
I don't know much of what you do yet cos I've not watched your other videos yet but looking forward to seeing what else you've got especially the analogue/plugin comparison videos 👍
This is an excellent video. Thank you for posting it!
My 40 years of audio experience predates plug-ins, and yahoos who purport to have some insight and hidden knowledge have always been with us. Furthermore, he has irrational presumptions about why analog gear and plug-ins have evolved the way they have. Everyone forgets that digital recording (which precedes pro tools) was an answer to the noise and loss of detail that came from analog tape. The continued use of outboard processing has been used to preserve a lot of the low-end warmth that digital loses. We're always compensating for something.
Furthermore, you are a lucky engineer if you can find two analog units of anything that behave in an identical fashion. There's sooooo many variables in analog circuit components, and having a device that processes your sound in a way that's not only a pleasant sounding but reliable and repeatable way is a premium for the engineer and the client.
The difference in sound between most modern audio plugins and their analog equivalents is no greater than the difference between eq modules manufactured on different days of the week. In fact, many modern recreations of "vintage" analog hardware probably outperform the originals just due to advancements in manufacturing.
The whole thing is a pointless argument designed to attract hits. It's click bait.
Well done and keep it up!
I think what we forget is the final goal: a song.
After all we do music to make people enjoy it, people who don't care and don't know anything about music production and why they should? They wanna listen music.
I think it doesn't matter what we use, the important thing is that the tools we use help us to delivery the idea we have. For some can be the "sparkle" of analogue equipment, for others the efficiency of a plugin in which both are very questionable reason anyway but who cares, it can be all in our head the important things is that we're happy with we what we use.
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People are worshipping these old analog audio because they're expensive. They are not expensive because they're so great. There expensive because of market of the industry they were made for. Plugins are just computer code with a GUI. They can be good,bad, or ok regardless of price or name associated with them. Use what works. Use what u like.
It annoys the life out me. The waves L2 is still like a grand second hand.. Stupid money. 3 and a half grand for a vintage calrec eq.. Just scary
Awesome video!!!
I kept waiting to hear “wee fecker’s” somewhere in here. I’m gonna subscribe and comb the other videos for it.
😂😂😂
Rich Costey in particular to working with the Foo Fighters was saying he didn't like using ANY processing if he didn't have to, not just plug-ins because he wanted to keep the sound as pure and clear as possible.
"My work with The Foo Fighters fell into the second category. They had already done a lot of prep cooking and things were in very good condition. So I had to preserve what they had done to a fairly large degree, and this meant that my work mainly consisted of balancing and rides to get the dynamics to happen. Obviously, a certain amount of processing was still necessary, but that was more to enhance what the band"
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I co-owned (co-rented) Temple Studios in Los Angeles, for a few years, with B Real from Cypress Hill and Raymond Herrera from Fear Factory. Fleetwood Mac had recorded a record there years before. Our in-house engineer, Jeremy Blair, had engineered some Guns and Roses albums, among others - he was a well-regarded pro in the LA recording scene. This was back in the day, but even then he was using about 50/50 hardware and plugs. I saw this guy's ridiculous video the other day. It was hilarious and well worth the thumbs-down I gave it.
That's what is annoying about youtube. All engagement is good so even dislikes helps the guy out. That's why the video continues to circulate.
However interesting though, I didn't know you co-owned a studio. I was born in the wrong era haha 😔
I love that Raymond from Fear Factory was in business with B Real. I’m not a huge fan, but Fear Factory has always been ahead of the curve and far more open-minded than their peers. I remember going into an über-hipster record store in Greenwich Village in 1994 looking for the Fear Factory EP remixed by Front Line Assembly. The appropriately snarky clerk sneered and said it doesn’t exist. I found it on my own and made sure he rung me up. He was not amused.
I'm hybrid...and there isn't a mix I do without plug-ins...I like both... some plug-ins I have are a must in the signal chain no way around it everybody will have there opinions... but the end result is whether or not the consumer likes the way it makes them feel... cause I believe music is as much about feel as it is about sound..🎵🎶🎶🎹
100% 👌 if I'm not moving along with a song then I know it's not mixed right. It's about whatever tools you can use to result in the desired end feel you want to project 😎
Speaking of hybrid, the Uno Synth Pro comes close to what my ears want to hear in that aspect.
That said, I like a nice and clean sound, which I can get from vsts right now. As I perceive it, it all comes down to skills and what one wants to hear; it's very subtle IMO. However, after living in a box for 7 seven years I may want to have a real keyboard by now ;)
Sometimes it's just about the actual physical aspect that appeals to many. I'll never use like midi guitars. The thought gives me shivers but there have been records made where you wouldn't know. Not that many but I've heard a few very cool things people have done with vst instruments
I got started in audio in the late 70s and early 80s. I remember reading data sheets for ICs, articles in magazines and books on audio circuit design (I know it might be hard to imagine, but Google didn't exist then) and engineers were focused on flat frequency response, low noise, low THD, high headroom and high slew rate. But there were always tradeoffs. I had a good sized vinyl collection and I couldn't wait for CDs to come out. I bought my first CD player (a Phillips) and my first CD (Yes' 90125) and was in Heaven!! No more pops. No more scratches. No more degradation of highs with each play -- and you could put more bass on the recording because you didn't have to worry about the needle flying out of the grove. As digital audio has improved over the years with more bits, higher sample rates and ADCs with better passband ripple, I thought the old analog and vinyl would go the way of the dodo, but that evidently hasn't happed. We now have digital systems with (internally) ruler flat frequency response, a noise floor below the threshold of hearing, 144dB (or more) of dynamic range, zero THD (if your true peak signal doesn't go over 0dBFS) and a slew rate far beyond what was achievable with analog without your op amp turning into an oscillator or a noise source. I find it kind of funny when I put a Waves CLA 76 in and select a preset and see a bit of noise on my meters. Seriously???? This makes no sense to me at all! Of course you can turn this off, but are people so geeked on hardware that they want to simulate the 60Hz hum that bleeds from the power supply into the audio circuits? Why? Why? Why? As someone who worked in a studio as the maintenance engineer, I would spend a lot of time tracking problems like this down to eliminate them. I can understand wanting to simulate the functionality of a piece of hardware in order get, for instance, the compression curve of a classic compressor, but unless you are trying to get a "retro" sound for your mix, what is the point?
Totally.. I ALWAYS have noise switched off at all times. Always. Why would I want it haha
Nice to hear the other side of the argument. I saw that other video a while back and your counter arguments are a welcome addition to what most engineers (and non-engineers) need to consider....Also....I love what looks like a Gretsch White Falcon...What ever model it is, looks like a super nice ax. All the best to you.
Philip
From the NYC area...
Its a limited edition Gretsch Electromatic 🤓
@@PaulThird I will check it out. Looks like a very nice guitar...Thanks.
Philip
Yeah it was either this or softube console 1 & fader for my 30th. In the end I think my wife made a Good decision especially as that's them gone. Closest to a white falcon I was going to get. Also means I have a gretsch with filtertrons and deArmonds as I have one of the early modern electromatics with the floating bridge 🤓
@@PaulThird I think it is always a plus to have a limited editing guitar. I have a Les Paul Studio (made in 1993 I think) with the M3 Electronics, (2 humbuckers and one single coil in the middle position). If memory serves me correctly they only made it for two years. It has a 5 way switch, like a Strat and the humbuckers are split-able, so you can get a pretty close sound to a Strat in the single coil mode and also get the conventional Les Paul Humbucker sound.
Phil
There is nothing that makes a better mix than Total Recall . If you have a summing box and
take photos of all the settings of your outboard gear I guess you could achieve total recall .
Having the ability to come back 2 , 3 , 4 days later and having taken in everyones input
on the mix you can go back and do fine tweaking ending up with a pretty damn fine mix
that transfers into real world listening .
🙌🙌
there's a simple solution here: devise a listening test for those who think hardware is always superior. play a number of recordings made either entirely with digital or analogue gear, and perhaps some with a mix of both, and see if their ears can really tell the difference. if analogue is so superior, obvioiusly they will be able to distinguish between the genuine item and the inferior copycat immediately, right? doubt it.
That's why i created my hardware vs plugin playlist on youtube. It's linked in this video and in the description. Some hardware win, some plugins win, sometimes it's too close to tell the difference. I set the hardware first and then try to match the plugins with the hardware
The only problem I'd see with a test like this is not everyone is listening on the same kind of equipment and there is a lot to say about Frequency Response of the vast amount of equipment. not to mention that there are so many other variables that fall into this, assuming most watching have some sort of listening devices that have a flat response and a good range depending on what you are comparing and how can still be a very complicated and yet subjective test to really do over the internet, objectively speaking.
the best way to do this is really in person with the same equipment.
either way there is a lot of hardware that is expensive
Their are to many fucking plugins that don't justify their own cost.
marketing is a bitch.
and my wallet still hurts in the end.
I've been at it for three decades. These concerns are often very genre-specific and ultimately, down to personal preference.
example: If I am working on an acid house track I have _completely_ different concerns about what gear may be needed to ensure the authenticity of the sound in said genre vs. recording a drumset for a rock song.
That said, how well one treats the signals, acoustics and performance - before it ever hits the A/D converters - makes the most difference of all in how far a mix can go.
good on you bro -- much more than a message in audio, but also a good human message about the climate of the internet and state of affairs we live in now. Way to bring it back home and cut through the shit. 100%
Thanks Johnny 🤓🤓
Well said. That video definitely made me cringe, and I'm glad someone dismantled it in a reasoned, sound way.
I couldn't hold it any longer. The more I was seeing it shared the more I felt the need to challenge it. wound me up pretty silly haha
Exactly!!! Our ears don’t lie!!! It if sounds at least 80% hardware!!! Why spend 1000s on Hardware? What’s the point??? 🤷🏽♂️
Good video bro, I saw the initial video which I also learnt from despite initially thinking the dude was wound a little too tight.
No what.. At times he's on the right path but he just uses terrible context for his arguments haha the phase stuff was interesting even for me but plugins can replicate it so as interesting as it is and does explain why some plugins have smeary top end and can lack width it doesn't mean that all plugins cant emulate that and also doesn't mean just cause you nailed the phase means that it's gonna sound like analog, you still have to reduce aliasing, get the linear frequency response right, the curves, get the input structure right to drive harmonics to replicate the THD, coding, oversampling.. There's a bucket ton of stuff you need to nail.
Where do you place softube in terms of quality, I just recently purchased the model 84 and model 72 and have been impressed as the model 84 sounds almost identical to my 106, so much so that it is no longer my 106 haha but would you say the Chandler zener bender would be worth the buy ?
I really REALLY like the Mike-e to the point I'm gutted it's out my price range. In terms of the curvebender I did this shootout vs Acustica and waves
ruclips.net/video/jCu81biwNJU/видео.html
From what I remember softube and acustica were pretty much on par but acustica coffee is way more bang for buck. Coffee is the entire chandler suite so you get the curve bender, zener limiter and also the rs124 as well as all the pre's. The high end on coffee is amazing as well and can be pushed more. 12.5k bell on the right source is 👌
The weiss mm1 and drawmer are fantastic and again if it wasn't for price I'd have both of them. We'll maybe not the weiss now as the tdr kotelnikov GE is my clean comp / limiter.
The softube tube tech stuff I wasn't impressed with at all. Really lacked against acustica for me
@@PaulThird cheers mate I'll give the comparison a watch and yourself a sub, I like the mike-e as well which is why I'm on the fence with the chandler collection it has the germanium which sounds great, the mike-e is just on another level
The germanium.. That's the other comp I forgot about in coffee! It's £219 just now and as a wee trick if you sign up with control room on fb they get you 50% off (assuming they still do it) either way you'll save a TON especially due to softubes pricing on chandler stuff.
That's what coffee gives you
Coffee (15) - The Chandler Collection
• EQs: (A) Chandler Limited TG12345 Curve Bender and (B) Chandler Limited Germanium Tone Control.
• Compressors: (1) , (2) and (ULTRA) are a Chandler Limited RS124. (MODE 3/LIM) is a Chandler Limited TG12413 Zener Limiter
• Preamps: 31 in total.
LINE:
1-24: 24 channel paths (line input to output). The frequency response (of each preamp) is derived from 24 different channels of a transistor-based solid-state console. The harmonic content (of each preamp) is derived from a recreation of a celebrated vintage Mic Amplifier (valve line amplifier) used in one of the most famous recording Studios in UK in the ‘60s.
EMI TG12428?
CUST
A: EQ Model A's line preamp.
C25: REDD.47? "a tube microphone pre-amplifier emulation, the recreation of the original valve line amplifiers used in one of the best Britishrecording studios in the ‘60s."
E: line preamp of the TG12413.
F: line preamp of the RS124.
G: Little Devil Pre Amp (doesn’t include the Feedback control).
FEED:
B: EQ - Model B's line preamp emulation of
D: a preamp emulation of a Germanium based Mono Microphone Preamp/ DI 500 series unit.
(The B and D emulations that are part of the FEED bank give the user the possibility to use the FEEDBACK control/knob.)
@@PaulThirdAbsolute legend mate,
I think you've sold me on the Acustica purchase, might even have to splash out on the purple3 set with the money I save from avoiding Softube.
forward
Check out the noiseash ruletec collection. That's my personal favourite vintage pultec. It's £99 just now for the bundle. Purple gives you the warm audio pultec as well which is about 90% accurate to the real thing.
Id go noiseash however purely as I only use the eqp1a and not the midrange eq. The noiseAsh ruletec eq1a is only £29 just now and on sale 😉 you can hear it against a real pultec here ruclips.net/video/w_Xh7s0pNe8/видео.html 🤓
We recorded 19 Clash songs for a musical we were getting to the stage. Recorded with an API console direct to protools. Mixed in Protools.
Got an angry phone call from Mick Jones wife because they thought we had used the original recordings.
I love all these stories 🤓 when perceived perception is taken out the equation its true nearly most of the time nobody knows the difference
Clashical music for Clashical times.
@@thedevilsadvocate5210 good one
@@PaulThird and also...so what if there is a difference? Does the Apple logo have to have the exact shade of gray 30 years every year? God forbid it's slightly different...
What are we talking about now? haha sorry its hard to keep track. To me it's all about what the diffrences mean to the artist. When you take perceptual listening out the equation its all about what they prefer. If they prefer the difference of a hardware unit then you go with that, if they don't then you go with the plugin. The differences they do hear might be the difference they want. I once had a singer who was determined he needed a u87 on his vocal as he was told it was the most expensive mic we had. Set it up and he didn't like his voice. I had my at2020 kicking about as I was doing mic tests that day. Stuck in front of him and he loved it. I refused to tell him the price as it was pointless. He was properly getting himself in a panic as in his head he should be singing out the u87. I recorded both. Compared each vocal in the mix not telling him which was which. He picked the audio technica and that was it. I refused to tell him which was which and he got frustrated but in the end he preferred his voice through the cheaper condenser. That's why I always talk about perceived perception. It was a video from Eric Valentine I really took that in from. Actually that was a great video come to think of it talking about converters and how he got the rep down and done a blind test and he was all flustered haha
Great video, Paul. A few things are missing in his video that pertains to professional use where plug-ins win hands down and why analog has primarily been moved aside for digital.
RELIABILITY and RECALL.
Disclaimer, I have owned a pretty big analog studio, hybrid set up running at 96khz, 1176's, Distressors, Thermionic Culture, Vintage DBX Stuff, LA-2As, 1073, 1081's, Manley Vari Mu, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I sold all of it in 2014. I don't miss it.
Did it sound better? Marginally if it was all working correctly.
The better question is, does the record-making process benefit from the democratization of the tools? In my experience, yes.
Absolutely. The possibilities of software are not only beneficial for engineering but also massively beneficial for the creative process. You can get sounds so much quicker and also more options
but "if it was all working correctly" sounds like ITB too. It's just software and computer and CPU related problems instead. pick your poison or blend them. it's all poison. Every four years I have to change my entire workflow, system, and consider switching platforms just to save money. What a blast! That's the way it is man.
Ugh… I’m so tired of this discussion. I have plenty of hardware and plug-ins. I mostly use plugins cause it compliments my workflow and sounds just as good, and at times better, to me. The only thing I can attribute to my sound quality improving over the 20 years I’ve been doing this professionally, is experience. It’s just doing this day after day and finding solutions to problems and actually learning to hear all the nuance that pushes you towards better and better sounding mixes and masters. No matter what workflow you prefer there’s no shortcuts. You just have to put in the work. It doesn’t matter if you do it in the box or out. So sick of analog purists making this kind of argument because there’s always some ridiculous hidden agenda to lord some absurd superiority over the way others prefer to do things. “My way is the right way”. Fuck that. Thanks for calling out the BS. Subscribing.
I had reacted to his video. I agreed with a few points he made, but said " I don't fret over what I don't have, but work with what I do have."
A mastering engineer friend of mine has a plethora of hardware as well as software emulations.
We were in a position to A/B a number of them.
We both noticed differences, but came to the conclusion that the plugins would have worked equally well to the hardware.
They're would have been tweaks in a software compressor vs the hardware for example, but not to such a degree to
render the software useless.
I'm 90 percent software, and pretty happy.
So are my clients.
Good video by the way.
Cheers
As long as the client's are happy 🙌
Well just for the record you amaze me every Wednesday...... I've invested heavily in Acustica because of you... And you prove your point not just talk about it... I can appreciate that... You definitely have a technical advantage over me, I'm not ashamed to say.....and you're musical and prove that as well... Much respect !!! 👍👍👍👍👍
Went and worked with one of Berlin’s biggest mix engineers, surrounded by Analog gear and synths... used one bit of hardware once... and just because it was there. Mixes sound good because of him. Although analog synths are more fun, and can be more inspiring for me, not for the sound just for the tactile nature of them
All about the ears 👂and experience 🙌
I guess you mean hardware synths in general? If so, I agree. I have a few analog synths but I certainly love my Hydrasynth module just as much, if not more than some of my analog gear.
@@BIG_PASTA yeah, for sure. I have Rev2 Not full analog. And then some modular that is. So yeah anything you can put your hands on and understand the sound is coming from there, “feels” better to me emotionally. That’s an illusion I know, and I think with enough CPU and a good midi control you can almost replicate that feeling. But I haven’t found it yet. Even with real preamps I feel the same. Something about the tactile nature of them that just works, but sonically again, not needed or I can’t hear it
@@duffmouse Totally agree. There is something about a direct connection to the sound you're creating that for me is irreplaceable, and perhaps more important - fun and inspiring :) I enjoy using software but I haven't been able to replicate the feeling I get while messing with a hardware synth using a controller/plugin. I think because the individual, quirky nature of the instrument is missing when you do it that way, and perhaps because the controller is the same interface so matter the instrument?
I do agree that plugins like the waves cla-76 sound nothing like a real 1176 but then my softube fet compressor plug-in sounds identical to the real thing.
Plugins are totally hit and miss. I can't see any waves sounding like the real deal tbh. The ones I've heard and tried don't come close but as you said there are other plugins that can get bang on or better. Just about finding them 🤓
Good points, Paul.its both up to the mix engineer/production person, and what they can do with the software emulations. Andrew Schepps knows exactly what he's after when he sits down to mix. The man himself has stated he can have his laptop on a plane with a pair of Sony MDR-7506 cans and be close enough for some simple minor tweaks at final mix, so not only is he using software, he's mobile, and getting the job done. How? Because he knows how to extract what's necessary from a mix. I'm doing this myself and it's working incredably well once one knows the gear and how it translates. LoL
Peace brother Happy New Year!
🤓🤓
Always with dope videos bro ! 3K soon !
I know 👀 Not that I'm keeping an eye on it or anything 😂
@@PaulThird 😊😊😊
You nailed it, Paul! 🔨🥊 Also, you’re hilarious; this video had me stitches!
I've quite a few people tell me that now haha 🤓
@@PaulThird Lol. You’d be awesome company down the pub or on a night out post-Covid! 🍺 But in all seriousness, please do keep on bringing this humour to all future videos; at the end of the day, it’s your personality which keeps bring us back! 🙏🏽
Im a typical Scotsman on a night out. Binge drink and then dont want to go home 😂 my lips are definitely a lot looser though and can come out with some pretty mental stuff. I'm still a nice drunk though haha 🤓
having had access to some of the best hardware and software gear over the years there are arguments for both. there are pieces of hardware that have a sound you can achieve more quickly than with software and vice versa. it's all about workflow and what you're comfortable with. for me the advantage of hardware is how tactile it is and how quickly you can dial in a sound but conversely there are things you can do with plugins that would be a major headache with hardware only
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I'm from Fife. I enjoyed yer flow. I've toured, recorded and mixed professionally for 20 yrs including sessions at Rockfield, Rak, SARM and Abbey Road. Ive used great hardware from Neve to SSL. These days I use UAD apollo interface with softtube fabfilter and I can barely tell the difference from a digital DBX160, 1176 or LA2A to the read thing. Even the 1073 in software is amazing. I prefer UAD versions to Waves for the preamp. In my opinion UAD have this nailed now. Plus the cpu dsp heednips are years ago.I sold hardware and bought new Genelec 1032s....because them and my lugs have an understanding. Keep up the guid work across the water. Fife4Life.
Yo man, you're very spot on. I've been using a lot of the real thingie in uni like the Tel. LA-2A, Manley Voxbox, 1176 stuff and lost time on every session recall. Went UAD, never lookin' back. However, I still found the very extreme settings sound a lot more different. Like when you push the hardware to distort, It'll just behave a bit more naturally. Also I found that analog summing on the Audient ASP8024 console worked out way more natural in the low end than in Pro Tools. Probably algorithms has something to do with it.
"who's making recarrds these days? wheuse making number hwun hets?"
I go into proper Scottish mode when I get wound up 😂😂😂
OK,but what is that crazy looking keyboard you got on your desk back there?? Excellent Great video btw!
You know, I have been using all different kinds plug ins for years, whether its a virtual instrument or a studio processor like a compressor and I don’t have anything against the medium, but I have to say that I have been using an analog console and outboard gear more and more again and the difference has really surprised me. First of all, nothing beats having 0.0% latency when tracking on an analog desk that you are also simultaneously monitoring on. Then the speed in which you can get great 3 dimensional tones from the onboard EQ and compressor in the insert. I had forgotten how inspirational this process was. A little verb from a send and bam! Tone for days. I know you can do great stuff in the box, but I don’t think I really want to as much anymore. Workflow and sound quality are both conspiring to get me out of the box again.
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Good music will always be good, bad music will always be bad. Buying a lot of EFX is dangerous, it can make u forget why u love making music in the first place...
*Don’t get caught up on that “best sounding EFX”, just work with what u got*
Jon Hopkins was using a Soundblaster card running 16bit 44.1, and processing his audio through SoundForge until 2013. Those albums sounded amazing. I've seen people do amazing things with very little. It's in the hands of the genius.
I agree with you 110%, but that doesn’t negate that I would prefer
A) as a tracking engineer, having all the hardware gear I want on the instruments going into the DAW or
B) as a mixing engineer, having the tracking engineer do A
There’s just no arguing with people like this guy, because there’s always a good amount of truth in what they’re incorrect about. Even if analog gear is “better,” what’s to stop this argument from getting into infinitesimally smaller arguments about using the “wrong” compressor on the snare, modded vs original circuits, etc.
Elitism just creates barriers and limitations.
Totally it's a Pandoras box of subjectivity. I just think about limitations. If you can afford hardware and you love the sound of it and you feel that it gives you what you want over other alternatives then just buy it if you can afford it. Exact same with plugins. Why limit ourselves when we can just use both 🤷♂️
The only person you need to satisfy is yourself and your client. If you's both walk away happy then I wouldn't be doubting the tools you used 🤓
@@PaulThird wow thanks for the response!
Yeah I agree. Even if I had all the hardware in the world at my disposal I’d still want the tracking mix and the master to sound different from one another so why not hybridize! He’s equating what sounds good to what’s “perfect” and that’s just unnecessary when we don’t listen with our eyes and biases
Ahhh please. Where can I find this chops channel. I would LOVE to hear his mixes where he used all analog....
Actually plugins are very versatile and much less expansive, so I'd would say that the best result nowadays can be achieve with hybrid set-up, also.if you are skilled enough and possibility have a strong computer you can achieve pretty interesting sounds too! Scottish accent it's my new favorite accent btw 😂🌍
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Even if the guy was 100% correct it doesn't matter. The vast majority of plug in purchasers are home recordists from nube to semi-pro.
Most of us have rarely if ever, heard a real Fairchild or even an LA-2. If people who used to use that type of gear say it's close enough for them , then it's close enough for me. Further, imagine how much top line software you can purchase for the price of a pair of la-2's and a pair of 1176's. Instead of having four compressors you can have forty, with zero maintenance, calibration, connections, or tube heat, PLUS a bunch of reverbs, Eq's, enhancers, etc.
Trust me. In twenty years time people will be bitching because nobody can simulate the sound of an original FABFILTER. : )
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Man... The thing that grinds my gears is the fact that they get into a video to say how good X or Y plugin mimics the hardware and analog sounds... Discarding completely the fact the recording process was made on 100% analog gear.
Thank you.
Very interesting. I no longer have unison option but my goal is to go hard going in and soft coming out. Or am I just wasting money money?
I'd try some channel strips. I seen a comment about a guy who uses the Lindell 80 channel instead of the neve desk at his studio. The PA strips have THD options so you can add more saturation.
However there's nothing wrong in investing on some decent colourful pre's like capi and warm audio stuff.
Id try channel strips first and then if thats not your thing look into some ssl, neve or api hardware clones 🤓
Surely, there are enough out there that are close enough for rock 'n roll. However, for the price of one piece of decent hardware, you can have an entire suite of mixing and production gear. Anyhoo, Finneas and Billy seem to do pretty well from a bedroom with plugins. Talent is talent.
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@Jonesy excellent point. Billie Eilish & Finneas have proven yet again that creative people - not expensive, boutique gear - are the driving force behind really good music with wide, commercial appeal.
@ArcaneAudio that's true, he did use some outboard gear. however as far as I know he switched to mixing almost fully in the box (that's what he said in an interview with Dave Pensado) but that's not the point because it's still not necessary to have expensive outboard gear to get a mix that sounds that good
But.. It wasn't fully analog and still won grammys. It was hybrid. Didn't matter if plugins were used. But in terms of the heavy lifting it was plugins. You mentioned the importance of tracking through analog gear in another comment but this was produced in a bedroom with plugins. It was mixed predominantly with plugins. Analog used at the end. Of course there is most likely gonna be analog used at some point in a big hit as there as analog tools that give a certain result that plugins can't.. Yet. It is what it is. Do they see it as.. This sounds 2d with no depth so we need analog? No because the mixing engineer wouldn't have used tools that created a flat 2D mix. He uses tools that give him what the label expect. He found plugins and hardware that could do that. Is there a dangerous ADA converter plugin? No. If there was and it gave the same sound would he use it, my guess is yes as he used uad 1073 over most tracks and doesn't feel the need to have one to process audio through.
However, as I said about CLA just because there are plugins available doesn't mean you have to use them. Why change something that works. Some like the physical nature of hardware. Some have custom hardware, others have units that just sound different to other units and have a unique sound.
The problem is that many see that to have analog just cause its analog is best and that's the wrong way to see it. They are tools. Engineers don't sit with a shadow Hills and go.. Great this sounds more analog. They think about the compression, tone, depth, width, colour, how it adds to the feel, what it does to the frequency spectrum. That's where the real debate is instead of.. Analogs better.. Why.. Just cause it is.
Great video Paul!
I love your presentation.
Very entertaining.
Cheers mate.
PS ‘If it’s not Scottish it’s crap’
-Mike Myers
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@@PaulThird I'm curious do you.
1) know some Gaelic,
2) don't know any, but don't hate it, or 3) can everybody just please &&44_n speak English already.
I came here for the funny response to the analogue navel gazing video, but you're Scottish so I'm curious.
Nah I don't speak gaelic. That's only in certain parts of Scotland and even at that a very small part of Scotland
I've hear gaelic on BBC alba when dundee united are on it but it just sounds like gibberish to me as I have no clue what they are saying 😂
@@PaulThird I understand. I'm trying to learn it just for fun. But to be honest, I spend far more time watching mixing videos. Apart from RUclips. I did Puremix which was a game changer for me. The start to finish is fantastic. Now I'm saving up for mixwiththemasters, but it's blimmin expensive. I'll check out some of your other videos. :)
I would genuinely pay for mix with the masters if I could justify it haha even the little snippets they give you on youtube are magic 👌
Bravo. I appreciated your nuanced approach. As in most things, blanket statements like these are a fast way to be proven wrong. Thanks for this video, I had a chuckle too.
Glad you enjoyed it 🤓🤓
I am not an audio expert. I know nothing about what you are talking about. BUT all I can say is something has changed in the last 20-30 years.
Listen to anything produced in the late 70's, 80's, and early 90's and it sounds better to my ears. But I admit, that is just my opinion. You are the expert. Just do what is best for your profession.
The guy Dort of says “you can’t” but … you can. Computers are really powerful
Yup. After getting my i9 it meant I was able to use acustica stuff in real time where with the i5 it was constant freezing so I could have Multiple AA plugs running
I’ve tested some of my hardwares with plugin doctor. The truth is that hardwares have phase problems too.
Yup 🤓
And let’s not forget the random ggghhhjssshh noises from oxidization on the tt plugs.
Haha, brilliant. Great that you challenged this. Enjoyed your no nonsense style. His popping voice over annoyed me more than his stock picture fixation tbh 😂
Hahaha 'boys voice be poppin'
Excelentes todos tus videos, saludos de Argetina!!!!
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"I've been waiting on Soothe for two years for a good deal" my favourite part. Gave me a good laugh. You are not alone.
I'm hoping that this smoothie operater plugin from baby audio will do haha
@@PaulThird I just got Smooth Operator on the intro sale and it's a great alternative to Soothe (code EMAIL10 knocks off a few bucks to $35). I also use Izotope Neutron (the basic Elements version) with good results cleaning up the mix.
Somebody else mentioned neutron to me yesterday and I always forget I have it haha 😔 maybe I'm just too OCD and used to filtering out frequencies myself. It does really look like a time saver though. Is it reliable for cleaning up to your ears or are you using it and maybe still doing the odd tweak yourself?
@@PaulThird I'm still learning tricks for doing it myself but I mainly just use the presets for a particular instrument or bus. Then click the "learn" tab and then "track assist". Not sure if I'm using it right but I notice a improvement quickly. It came with their $50 Black Friday/ Holiday Bundle deal last November. Well worth it. I haven't used the mastering program Ozone yet but that's touted as easy peasy too.
Ozone is superb 👌👌 I use it for mastering
This feels like a massive way to cope with spending thousands upon thousands of dollars over the years, and then plugins caught up.
Exactly
Plugins opened Audio Engineering to EVERYONE!!
I disagree. I had the opposite situation investing in digital, then turn around and buy a console. I think he truly believes most of what he says. I personally don't attest to better or worse, both are still improving side by side! Analog mixing of digital recordings is better for me personally. But I sure as hell love some digital stuff like drum samples/players, autotune, very clean eq, some cool models of gear, and convolution.
CLA’s expertise as a mixer does not make him immune to confirmation bias. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe even Michael Brauer is mixing in the box now. I think there are plenty of strong arguments for analog hardware, for example, the longevity of tape, or in my case, I like to commit to a sound on the way in rather than recording it without processing and manipulating later. It always felt like a Hail Mary pass to record things without any saturation or processing on the way in, and Now that I have a console and some outboard gear like compression, eq, etc, I can hear the record coming together from the get go. It’s also really fun to mix and record this way, since you’re doing things dynamically and with actual knobs, but it’s hard to argue with the amazing quality of plug-ins these days, not to mention the recall, and the complexity that’s available in terms of fader rides. There are digital solutions for this too though; for example Apollo interfaces. I will say also that having a nice analog mix buss comp has given me a sound on my mixes that I’ve been craving, but it’s not always the right sound. But if I didn’t track bands, I’d have a fraction of the outboard gear I have now.
Digital has gotten sooooo good and it’s only getting better. I’m as tired as the next guy of new and improved 1176 plug-ins, but there are just gobs and gobs of really forward thinking and incredible digital tools available these days. If your mixes don’t sound great, it ain’t because you don’t have hardware.
Thanks for the video Paul, this actually just reminds me how much I love Scheps' Omnichannel. :) Love your videos man, keep it up!
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The only people that dream of studio full of Large Format Analog Console, and outboard gear, tape recorder, etc… are generally the people that never worked with them.
I learned to record music on 2” tape recorder over 30 years ago, and now I’m glad I can just use any DAW.
Totally. Even on the tape shootout I just did it showed that there is no real benefit recording to tape. The right plugs can give you the same feel and even at that it's all very subtle if you use a high quality tape machine for tracking. No noise as well. Loads of people actually thought the real studer was the dry haha
No mention of noise floor, signal interference, reliability and consistency, no two analog machines sound the same, I’m originally from Dundee by the way...
That's what I prefer about plugins. No noise and you know exactly what your going to get so if you like that sound then it's like that for eternity really. No worry of replacing tubes, services etc etc means it's transferable as well. As you said you can use hardware 1176 and 2a in your studio, go into another studio and it not sound like you want.
You did the best thing getting out of dundee. Trying to become an audio engineer in this neck of the woods is near impossible. Lucky if there are more than 10 gigging bands these days. After seagate closed down I think that was it. No recording avenue
@@PaulThird I was about in late seventies/early eighties.....until I got involved in Dance Factory and Inner City Sound before was only pub gigs, then was involved in King Tuts Wah Wah Hut for its first couple of years before going around the world a bit and ending up in Germany
I know tons of engineers in Germany now for some reason haha Germanys actually my 3rd highest demographic after US and UK
Germany? Berlin..These guys over there make the best of quality, including Native Instruments...Just watch/ listen to the quality of the sound Native are producing, not to mention ALL the third party contributors...that’s the quality route I’m on...Ive went ITB totally. 🎧 🤘
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I understand the Rockefellers out there can afford bespoke equipment but so many of us bedroom producers have to be creative with cheap and or free plugins and I always feel so much better about living that life after watching your vids Paul! Thanks for your work!
Btw are you from Glasgow? I lived in the Gorbals as an exchange student in highschool and your accent sounds a bit glaswegian to my untrained yankee ears. If I got that wrong many apologizes, I've been binging Taggart recently and now maybe everyone sound glaswegian to me :)
From dundee 🤓
@@PaulThird Damn, many apologies I wasn't even close! I've been to Dundee and thought it was really pretty, plus the Barrelman pub poured a proper pint of heavy for me there. Thank you again for dropping technical but easily understood knowledge on us home studio folks!!
The situation with Plugins vs HW is that are many occasions where the Plugin really sounds so similar to the HW and then u put the same plugin with a different source and then differences are bigger and they do not sound close.... now the control, the total recall, the price and so many extras and advantages balance the differences....
jeeze i never thought i'd hear the words "andrew scheps" and "fear mongering" in the same sentence
It's crazy 😂😂 the guy honestly picked THE worst example for every argument he could use haha
@@PaulThird I was very lucky to have met him..such a lovely man
I genuinely perceive him as the type of guy where if you lived in the same village and he knew you were an engineer you'd at one point end up discussing audio haha tbh most of the big engineers I see interviews of seem like top blokes 👍 manny, pensado, jjp, Wells, brauer, valentine.. All guys you'd love to go for a pint with haha
that's like attacking the pope himself...!
Also. Does the hardware sound like the hardware. There are differences between the exact same model between different units. Tolerance is the word for it. All hardware has variance.
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Andrew Scheps mixes in the box. But he has absolutely said that the recording end matters regarding analog gear. Mixing well engineered music from actual analog gear, amps, pres, synths, microphones, etc. makes a huge difference than mixing music that is purely synthetic and emulated pres mics amps etc. Andy Scheps said this himself. He doesn't track music... He mixes it.
What are these 10p plugins you are talking about in this vid? Can you please give me a link to them?
😂😂😂.. I thought you would be better with my accent now
@@PaulThird I recalled this name. I didn't stop the video in order not to disturb the YT algo. I can understand every word.
Tbf timP plugs are pretty cheap
Your new chair makes you look like a boss!
You know what they say.. Pink to make the boys wink 😉😂😂
Theres a top mastering engineer mastering entirely in the box and on headphones! His studio got pure concrete walls!
His name is Glenn Shick.I do the same way like him but i’m not famous as Mr Shick 😁
Honestly i think the guy that made the video is still living in 2000 😂
I think hes probably still on Windows ME storing sessions on floppy disks haha
@@francescodonadelcampbell3906, so you do love concrete walls, too? :-D
@@100states6 ahaha not concrete walls but i do love high end headphones amps 😉
@@francescodonadelcampbell3906, would be funny though to build concrete walls in your room in order to copy Glenn!
Oh man, your reactions are priceless. I laughed out loud so many times while watching this. Thanks for making this.
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I enjoy the increased level of flexibility and tunability you get with software over hardware! That said if you like the aesthetic or the feel of using a piece of hardware then it may be worth it, but it typically will be more expensive, take more space, and require more maintenance...that said I do prefer a real guitar or piano over a vst version though the pianos have gotten very good over the years
A good SONG, a good PERFORMANCE and a good set of EARS producing, that's all it takes.
Agree on that. In the past I was also a bit involved in the analog vs digital discussion but now I really don't care that much anymore. I work totally in the box because I would like to be able to work flexible. I use different kind of plugins which I like. Mostly Acustica Audio Nebula stuff because it has a lot of depth which is missing in quite a lot of plugins. The only thing I a missing a bit is sometimes the connection to the plugin, turning knobs and so. I haven't used a lot of hardware but I can see why people would prefer it but 1 down side of hardware are recalls. There are workarounds off course to make pictures of the settings but that will be never as quick as saving or recalling digital :)