"JUST USE YOUR EARS!!" .. That's EXACTLY What The Audio Industry Want YOU To Do .. But WHY??
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- Опубликовано: 5 дек 2023
- "JUST USE YOUR EARS!!" .. That's EXACTLY What Plugin Makers Want YOU To Do .. But Why??
My name is Paul Third and I am a Scottish youtuber / audio engineer / mixing engineer / audio geek. I mostly cover audio engineering related content ranging from audio plugin shootouts / plugin comparisons (acustica audio plugins, universal audio etc etc) to actual analog vs digital / gear vs plugins plugin tests via access analog and mix analog. I even include ddmf plugindoctor tutorials in my plugin reviews so you can be your very own plugin tester and experiment and understand whats actually going on under the hood.
All of my audio blind tests involving music production software are conducted in Presonus studio one 6 which is my main daw and I also use HOFA blind test 4U as my blind test software. In terms of my audio interface I record and monitor through a universal audio apollo x6 through topping dx7 pro+ dac/amp and use an se dynacaster for all of my voice overs.
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OK so... What are some plugins that I need to look at and test? What plugins are claiming Harry Potter style magic and what analog emulations need a good curved matched null test?
Answers on a postcard...
Michaelangelo from tone projects. Edit: I have a few analogue mastering eqs here and the Tone Projects EQ is better than one of them
Midnight - Acustica Audio
He's back, Baby! Have a look at RBass and MaxBass, definitely something screwy there. I asked God (Worrall) to investigate but he's on the payroll now, hey even God needs to pay the bills!
was just going to suggest it!@@papabrancamastering
literally the magic suite from Gustav Scholda Digital Signal Processing
" Just buy it , install it and do any test you like! Its up there with the Best! Seasoned Engineers said so!! (no refund after purchase)"
Buy first, listen later..always listen later 😂
@@PaulThird Exactly! „Remember. Always take your time with listening but never forget to buy first! -Obey my Dog-! “
I've always wanted the old Paul Third back!! man, I'm so glad that you're going back to testing and nulling things 🤣🤣🤣
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Hi Paul! First of all - do what YOU want to do and have fun! When I found your channel it was a truly mind blowing. tbh I would be happy to see some mixing lessons from You. You have a great background and impartiality
Unfortunately mixing lessons would flop on this channel because truth is, most don't want to listen to somebody that doesn't have "status" in the industry. That's a big reason why I decided to go all in with the Working Audio Tools Podcast so I can share my journey and techniques with every mix I do in a place where there is no "authority"
@@PaulThird I'm split on that, I think there are some people out there, that would be interested to listen to someone that isn't just repeating stuff they heard, but can't explain. On the other hand, that type of audience will probably generate less income (because of the algorithm, and how compensation is calculated on youtube). I do think you could become "authority" for a specific group. On the other hand, if they interact with others, they will either have to suppress their knowledge in front of others, or be swept by the bs machine of marketing and tradition.
I've learned what works and I now fully understand where "my YT lane" is. Just gotta accept it and remind myself how many opportunities that content opened up. The main reason I have so many contacts in the industry is because I was doing stuff that they didn't have time to do. They like my content and I drain their experience like a sponge 😂
I'll still include some studio stuff just so I don't lose my mind but tbh a part of me thinks just to move that to a different channel. Dunno still cause my studio is a lot of work and very consuming.
@@PaulThird I do not care the status. If it sounds good why should I not look at your mixing content ? I am not a cow, I am a man, I am supposed to use my head, I try to do so
I've gotta make youtube worth my time though. I'm doing 60-70 hours a week minimum as it is working day job full time, youtube, podcast, mixing, as well as building a 4 room studio
I always enjoy your videos Paul. Great to see you posting again.
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You could not be more correct about the placebo powers when it comes to "use your ears". There is a great story about a session with one of Australia's producers back in the 1970s who said to the engineer "add a bit more body to it". The engineer fiddled a bit with couple of knobs on a channel that was muted and turned up the monitor level a fraction. The producer said "that's great" :)
Yup 🤓
THIS is why we love and appreciate you so much Paul! You are our champion. Carry on good sir.
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❤️ this video, keep entertaining and educating folks 🤟
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Great stuff buddy, the amount of BS peddled to the consumer from plugin manufacturers, especially the (true analogue) is astounding, how they get away with blatant lies? Good to see someone calling them out on their BS claims. There's nothing I hate more than seeing 20 videos come up on my RUclips feed, all pushing the exact same plugin on its day of release. That BS helps no-one! Keep up the good work and Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to you and yours buddy.
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Well done, Paul Third!
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Re your comment towards the end... where you said "never be buying something you don't need" is really teh takeaway here. We know the indutry is full of people (read marketers!) sayng things like...
"With this plugin, it will take your mix/music (etc) to the PRO level" or any of the near variations on that theme.
The issue is not even that some plugins are not doing what they say they are (some of course DO) but that there is already the belief that (like guitar pedals!) just one more is going to make the big difference that I'm looking for and take me into "PRO!!" territory. As ever, people want the easy fix that the latest plugin/hardware or whatever is simply going to solve your problems. Which it almost never will.
When the truth is that in any modern DAW, there are MORE THAN ENOUGH resources available to make any recording session/mix/Mastering project sound great. If you know HOW to use the tools you have already got!
The WHY is almost the most important
"Just use your ears" is a funny, funny thing to me. This works within a mix, but not with fresh expectations. Recently something hilarious happened - and I don't know if you know. A collegue of you tested a one-knob plugin and thought it was boosting 9 db of transient info on the high-end, when it was actually boosting tonal information. So he went ahead and recreated a 9 dB transient boost on the high-end with Split-EQ - and to my surprise: He thought it sounded nearly identical. It was a very audible difference.
I'm certain his monitoring system is better than mine and I don't think my ears are better than his. What happened there was his mind playing tricks on him. He thought he knew what the plugin did, because he read it. But he read it wrong. I read it right. His expectation was the wrong one, mine the correct one. To me that is the best example I've encountered up to this day (besides tweaking muted plugins) of how strong expectations screw with what we're thinking to hear.
That's why we should always take it with a bucket of salt when anyone claims that analogue is superior, or Softube instruments sound better than Cherry Audio instruments. With price comes expecation. And we can ALL be fooled. No exceptions.
Psychoacoustics and cognitive bias is definitely the biggest weapon the audio industry has
you're talking white sea studio, I've watched the same video and was pretty confused as well.
@@paulmanea1768 I don't like badmouthing people, especially not when I feel like they are actually providing value and not behaving like bad people - that's why I kept the name out of it. Last thing I want is to create the impression that Pauls community badmouths his collegues. This was simply a prominent example of something that happens to all of us.
Totally understand your argument, but bad mouthing is a matter of choice of words imo. @@akagerhard
Love it! I have heard a few people say that Scheps Omni Channel EQ sounds scratchy. I know that's not true but I'd love to see your analysis.
Did worral not do a deep dive?
ssl x saturator is one i don't quite understand: i tried testing it myself, but it seems a couple of knobs do the same thing and some do nothing at all. i'd be curious to see how you'd test it
Dunno people will probs just think that whatever I say is because my spat with ssl
yeah i get it... i'm looking forward to whatever you'll be testing@@PaulThird
There is a plugin company, in which someone who is mixing hardcore music has his fingers in. On that youtube channel, there is a video, where he said, that level match and oversampling is stupid.
I always had a bad feeling about him, also didnt liked his work or plugins either... But that was embarrassingly bad.
I showed it to friends of mine and we had a good laugh and some chuckles.
As I said, anybody that is promoting a plugin or company on youtube and tells you that science is pointless and has no place in audio .. Massive red flag
If it's purely in a mixing context then yeah understandable but if it involves potentially buying any audio product... really suspect as there needs to be a large understanding of science and testing involved when making a plugin or piece of gear in the first place. I know a lot of devs that personally use doctor for testing their plugins.
Hi there !
I don’t follow very often those days but the quest is a good one.
Just be careful not to go to far (as we all can). It means, be careful not to dismantle a plugin just because your audience wants you to do so ;)
That said, I fully agree on your way of seeing things.
-Some plugin manufacturers do not test properly what they sell.
-Some plugin manufacturers know that their plugin is not so great and just give a 0.4 dB boot when signal goes through it
-Some plugin manufacturers do not care about aliasing, oversampling and that kind of stuff.
-Most plugin manufacturers do not implement gain staging or gain accurate gain compensation in their plugin
This is all bad. Very rare are the honest faithful plugin manufacturers and the distinction is not binary…
Please keep doing this and do it the best you can without going too far ! Best regards !
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Ahh yesssss. Back in the zone Paul! :) Gosh where to start?! Chuffed you are going to go back to the more analytical stuff. *Cracks knuckles.*
Might throw some video requests your way for sure; but would love to hear your spin on Maat Fidef Jentwo and anything psycoacoustic / snake oily. more specifically… if doing a famous Paul third null test™️the low level almost dithering sound/warbling that’s it creates can you pick it out in situ and does it do anything to “draw the ear in” as is claimed.
We can all do the null and wonder what the proverbial it’s adding. But does it speak to you or engage you in any way?
Just find the idea interesting, and would love to see a PT blind test with some different instruments on it and analysis mixed with a good rant at other more ‘out-there’ plugins. 👍🏻
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Your cockney disco cut scenes are fkn hilarious 😂
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I'm going to call out every video that doesn't do level matching. Just yesterday I saw one where they play a dry mix, then the one with the plugin on every channel, and comment "It's a night and day difference!". Well, yes, it is, because the processed one is FIVE DB LOUDER! Of course it sounds better! It's truly infuriating, because it has been proven again and again that even being aware of it, you still get fooled by a level difference, even of 1 dB. I stopped using Slate because of this because just activating a plugin raises the level by 3 dB, so users will state that "just switching it on already makes a ton of difference!!". Yes, indeed it does, but if you now turn down the fader there will be no difference anymore or too subtle to actually notice. I have bought plugins in the past fooled by this until I learned about level matching. No more. Download a trial, then do your best to replicate the sound of the plugin using what you already own, starting with stock plugins. Most of the time you will be able to do so with these stock plugins. Funny thing: only one plugin comes to mind that this will not apply to and that plugin is free, which is the Analog Obsession GrapHack, a graphical EQ with saturation per band. I have no other plugin that does what that one does. And again, it'sfree, so no marketing there, just someone who loves to make good products and gets paid via Patreon by those who can and feel he deserves it. Which he does.
But like you say, LEVEL MATCH!! Otherwise any comparison means absolutely nothing! And measure, because most of the time what you achieve with that expensive plugin can be achieved using what you already own.
Ok, that turned out a lot longer than planned
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100% agree with everything you've said. The only thought I had (which you didn't mention) is the reason why most youtubers don't bother with the "science" behind plugins. It's not always because they're trying to promote something, or because of some ideological disagreement with how to assess plugins - it's just that it's time consuming and hard. Far quicker and easier to just listen and give an opinion than to go to all the time and trouble of testing it properly.
And on that note, I've recently tested out all the room correction plugins as I was looking to improve that aspect of my monitoring and, unless I'm doing something very wrong, the 3 I tested all caused phase issues. Just put a mono single through a stereo bus (with any of the plugins) and the correlation goes from 1 to 0.9x. The reason I bothered to do this test was because it sounded like it was going out of phase when I put it on a full mix. And, just to be clear, I removed any phase correction that the plugins were purposely trying to do.
I didn't try trinnov.
In the end I made a correction curve using Pro Q3 based on the REW measurement and that worked perfectly.
When dealing with room correction there are a lot of phase issues before you even start. Phase is a massive part of audio and mostly unavoidable.
@@PaulThird My issue with the room correction software was that they introduce phase issues which were clearly audible even before I started testing. I just verified it by testing with mono signal, room correction plugin, phase meter and could see the signal going out of phase. I heard it but wanted to verify it. And now I'm wondering if I did something wrong or if room correction software is fundamentally broken because there's no way I could mix something which is being put out of phase.
Hmmm. It shouldnt introduce phase issues if it's not doing anything 🤔
Room correction is a bastard cause the room itself has phase issues and trying to correct those issues is another task in itself. That's the problem with sonarworks and other room correction that works in a fixed listening position. It can only flatten the frequency response that it measures for a very specific position in the room, but that still doesn't mean that it fixes phase issues. It can actually make phase worse in many ways as its only taking frequency into the equation which incurs eq moves which incur phase shifts but even linear phase won't help as it's not actually fixing the phase issues.
I don't know enough but I think that may be where trinnov comes in as it has a focus on frequency response and phase. I've only heard amazing things about trinnov
@@PaulThird "Hmmm. It shouldnt introduce phase issues if it's not doing anything".
Yeah, this!
I tried ARC 3, Soundid (what Sonarworks is now called) and DIRAC. They all had the same problem. I also tried Pro Q3 with an approximate correction curve and, even on zero latency, that caused no problem.
If you've got any of the room correction stuff then you can very quickly check for yourself. Mono signal, room correction on master, phase meter. Click the room correction plugin on and off and watch (and hear) the signal go out of phase.
It's always possible that I'm making some fundamental mistake and it's just user error but I ran out of ideas so just refined the room correction curve in Pro Q3 which a) worked and b) was free.
Paul Third Vice! welcome back :)
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Truth bro. Thanks for your channel and videos.
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True video!
I think you can Level match by using your ears. What level are you matching? Overall, vocals, bass line? Depends on what you’re looking for
It's the cognitive bias that affects level matching by ear. Psychoacoustics is a constant barrier for every engineer, that's why i use science
@@PaulThird nothing to say against that! IMO being a good engineer is about perspective, which is never the only truth, absolutely correct or unbiased. However your unique perspective makes you valuable. We just have to be cautious not to fool ourselves or get side tracked
The King is back👑
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YAY Welcome back! I thought about starting a YT channel, since I do this in my free time on a very regular basis and have some good outboard; but - time…Idk how you do it
Tbh.. By working way too many hours. Doing 60-70 hours a week in total
@@PaulThird good lord. Good for you though- I hope its all, or mostly, in the audio sphere.
Nah, I have to work a normal Mon-Friday job haha
My favorite RUclips channel.
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I do love your honesty dude. Calling out all the bullshit!
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The Goat is Back !!!
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Dr. is so handy for analyzing hardware too.
Yes the updates over the past year have been brilliant
great video ❤❤
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I have heard good stuff about the Tone Projects and Goodgertz plugins, it would be interesting to test them. I would be interested in their saturation plugins (Kelvin, Tone Shaper, Tupe)
Tone projects isn't a quick test, especially kelvin haha 😅
Just an idea😄
They have something called bass something. They make some type of antialiasing claims when you use there spreader. I'm no geek but I would love to know if that's some bs.
Antialiasing? Basslane pro generates harmonics from the signal which you can then process, it doesn’t mess up your phase because your not actually panning the low end, just the harmonics instead. Kelvin and the likes just have pretty regular oversampling options
@@jackflynn-oakley1937 Very nice
Great one, bro! LFG 🤘
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okay paul I could use your help on this one for real. I recently bought sonimus' a-console and I like the way it sounds. BUT...my thought was that this plugin was meant to introduce variations across each channel. when I test it though, it nulls when on two duplicated tracks. should the point of it be that if I have two identical tracks with a console on them, that it introduces something different with each instance?
What I found with sonimus Britson (didn't vibe with the A-console) is that the sound is in the cross talk and how the groupings interact with eachother. Try grouping everything and ensure you have the master grouping instance on the 2bus. When you have everything grouped how you want it within the sonimus routing and then bypass an instance of sonimus on something you will hear a perceptual change. You can't really put your finger on it, you just slightly hear the relationship of that source chance with the rest of the mix.
Instance to instance with no 2 bus routing it'll give you the same sound because it's a fixed sound. The variations occur in the summing and how the crosstalk impacts the relationship between all the groupings. Think of this as a chain that ultimately leads to the main grouping instance on the 2bus and all the plugins work together but you need the master grouping instance to make it all happen
Passthrough Channel to channel on a console shouldn't really be that different tolerance wise. filters, eq's and compression yes, should expect very slight deviations due circuit tolerance but the Passthrough of a well built console channel to channel should pretty much cancel eachother out within reason.
That's why people still buy summing mixers because they want to recreate the analog sum of all the components, the crosstalk etc etc
@@PaulThird well explained as always, man. thank you!
@@PaulThird good call on this. I wasn't using the grouping, just the channel and bus. I setup a session where I setup 4 groups and put a bus on each of those groups in the daw. then a master bus set to master grouping where i sent all the busses. I didn't even use fat or heavy drive - just crosstalk on each bus/master. it absolutely opened up the mix ten fold.
Yup, that's the sound. Ed still asks me all the time how I manage to achieve such spacious mixes and the Britson is a big reason why.
I send channels and busses to the same group. So channel instances will be kick, snare, oh, hats etc etc bus instances on the busses so channels drums and bus drums goes to the same drums group on the master instance.
Its the one plugin I'll never leave off. I tried mixing without Britson instances but always felt that I didn't get that open sound I was used to.
Truth and valuable info.
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Am I the only one who thinks it's "not a coincidence" that the two audio companies that gave you a hard time are now one? (SSL + Harrison 🙄). Maybe it's time to take a critical look at their latest acquisition... Slate! The Slate plugs are very popular but I see them as the Behringer of the software world.
Yeah I was VERY skeptical when I noticed the 2 had gotten into business together
Spot on!
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You are great man !
Honestly you’re doing very well, I am not an expert , but so far I’ve never seen you do something that seems dodge
You’re just giving facts supported by the tests you do.
Easy …
I don’t know if it would be possible, but the Warm audio replica of CL1b they say is almost the same for 1/4 of the price
If you could test both, that will be very interesting to see for me personally.
If you can’t, no problem for , anything you do on this channel is actually super helpful.
If someone doesn’t get it, it’s their own problem.
Thank you mate
If i can get a warm and tube tech I'd do it but it's getting the stuff in the first place that's the issue
Yesssss bring the old Paul back!!!!!
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Hey hey! Welcome back man! Haha!
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When in doubt, Paul Third!
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we need more weaver beats n paul thirds in the music world
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I totally agree. There is a difference between what you like (when using your ears) and buying something because the marketing says it's this or that. If you've spent a load of money on a plugin that claims to be as good as A but doesn't actually match A then you could have wasted your money - especially if there is another plugin that's a lot cheaper and sounds just as good.
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Hey Paul, I’d be curious to hear your take on Tone Empire APX-351. YOU keep doing YOU, because we all know that Paul Third is THE real RockNRolla!
If it's a machine learning plugin from tone empire then im very skeptical cause their compressor was all over the shop.. And I mean completely bugged
@@PaulThirdhahaha yeah LVL 1 was a bit of a mess. They have improved it a bit since the original release. I think they are releasing plugins before doing enough thorough testing, as the APX has had some issues (on my system, at least).
How about if the plugins goal is to increase the perceived loudness? Same method of testing?
Yup. If it's correctly adding perceived loudness then it should sound louder when level matched, thus.. Perceived
@@PaulThird So do you test it the same way you mentioned in this video?
For level matching theoretically it makes sense because by achieving the quietest null possible what you are doing is leaving yourself with the pure difference between the 2 files. That means that the 2 files have no difference between the other that that comes from gain. The only thing that's left between the 2 files is the combined actual difference.
Think about if you have the exact same file. You measure both on an analyser which isn't exact and tends to round or average the measurement, and it says both are the same level, you then null them and you have the tiniest bit of signal coming through. You then know that one of those files is louder than the other and it's like 0.1db of a difference. You know then when both files fully cancel that both cannot be louder or quieter, its impossible.
That's the thinking behind using a null test when level matching between different processes as it cancels out differences which appear via gain
We's want Paul Third!!!
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You were right about Sienna vs Realphones.
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As far as I can tell plugin doctors can't show distortion or frequency changes in the time domain. For example transformer lag. So if a piece of hardware (or a plugin) EQ changes it's EQ curve slightly during the onset of transients or changes depending on the volume envelope of the signal (or the harmonics change in the time domain) I'm not seeing how plugin doctor will show you that. But from what I can tell, these things are an important factor in analog hardware and some software.
There's a fundamental sweep in doctor that caters for non linearity, and they've also added a sweep function spectogram like RX
The Hammerstein also continuously runs a sweep. All this is painfully slow in doctor for hardware but the sweep constantly updates the reading
Waiting on the transfer curve ramp can genuinely be a "get a piss and come back" job haha
The sweep cover the whole frequency spectrum. But I don't think it shows how something would react to transients vs slower changes at different frequencies. @@PaulThird
How about the Acustica plugins, that supposedly are so well sampled, but as we now know is all bloated protection software, and the whole deal on how not to treat customers.. Thanks for the video..
Depends on which. I've found convolution bugs in quite a few
@@PaulThird all of them.. It totally blew up in their fb forum.. Now they had to start making their plugins smaller after R2R cracked them. Some up to a tenth of the original size. So 90% protection software..
Paul, could you test the God particle again. Soothe2 also has that kind of image...
I use God particle in every mix so I don't have a need to test it, and soothe 2, stands the test of time. Always my go to when I hear any harshness
Paul, can you test the latest Waves plugin Silk for vocals, got it for free.
This is legit the same case as the recent Relab ‘Maselec’ EQ. They posted a bunch of graphs on their website and quoted Leif himself saying ‘the difference between two MEA-2’s is greater than an MEA-2 and the plugin’ (paraphrased). They’re RUclipsrs saying how amazing it is, but the reality is that it nulls with FF, Kirchoff, Stock etc, it’s a clean digital EQ that generates 0 harmonics. Instantly disproving the quote from Leif, is the MEA-2 just a DSP chip in a box then? The only difference in sound comes from the curves, which you can easy match in any other digital EQ; the irony being that you can’t inside of the Relab plugin as you have fixed bands… Peak bullshit marketing and as a big Maselec fan, rather worrying
I've seen a few screenshots of nulls and stuff. I may do that one cause I know there is actually something to go on
Welcome back Paul.. you were missed!!!
For the life of me there's one (plugin) that supposedly rules them all! but every time i use it, it gets put back into the folder of shame...... yes i'm talking about Soothe 2. After spending 200 smackaroonies based on every single youtube channel saying its a life changing for vocals. 2 years on every combination of use and it still sucks the life out of my vocal. Paul, am i just not cut out for Soothe 2 or has my Autism shone a light where others walk in darkness?
I'm a soothe nut. Those guys are geniuses man. It's all about context I suppose
Like any EQ, Smart or not smart, it is used to deal with issues. If you don't have any issues, it will most likely make things worse. If your issues are others than what it is good at, it will likely make things worse. If you want your vocals to stand out more in a mix, you can sidechain another instrument with frequency clashes, so that instrument has suppression in specific bands when needed, but that will likely suck the life out that instrument, so you have to listen to the mix, not the instrument you EQ. To deal with vocals, I would also be looking at auto-tune vocal EQ or Surfer EQ2, as you can use their pitchtrack and treat specific harmonics. Solo the track you want to EQ, to find the issues, but do the actual EQing while listening to the whole production (this is really important when dealing with transients like sibilants, as you easily overdo it when soloing, as it sound more harsh by its own).
Yeah that's pretty good advice. I only go to it when I know I need it. I love it even as a de-esser. I just know when I need it if I hear like an electric guitar and it's all pokey, harsh and resonant. Bit of soothe and it backs off the energy. If it's a transient issue then I'll add spiff or smart eq to sort that. The trick is to let soothe do just enough. I macro the depth on instances so I can ride the overall affect to taste by ear on a fader so I'm not distracted by the gui
Thanks for the video.
On a side note, i really enjoy the Scottish accent. It reminds me of South African Afrikaans people somehow.
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Lets Gooooo!!!!!!
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Good ol' null tests :)
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Trying to do something different took all the fun out of it for you I think, you're already cracking more jokes, you're in your element... missed this Paul
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YEAH!!!!
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I remember some years ago when the discussion about lossless vs compressed audio started.
Someone made a blind test and I got zero correct answers, so I heard the difference I just interpreted it wrong.😅
It happens 😅
If I'm not mistaken, it was quite usual for lossy compression of music to result in a mix tilted towards the low end. And when you have equipment that can handle a bass heavier mix, that is preferred by a large percentage of the population. That is why a lot of people buy "vibey" speakers or headphones, when just listening, because they prefer that sound. And if they do music production, they probably because of that produce mixes that is less bass heavy than they think, because their playback system wasn't accurate.
@@TheJonHolstein I don't know about that.
What I do remember is, that there was a significant enough difference in the high-hats/cymbals for me to pick out the difference every single time.
I just got the whole thing backwards.
Hardcore Music Studio would like a word
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Fuck it he’s back
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Team R2R Cracked Acustica🤯
Yup
All hail Paul IV !
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I love this guy 😅😅😅
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Paul, we got it straight away. You do not need to stress it with the f....-Word. It is actually weakening the message...😂
I'm Scottish that's how we deliver any message
I actually f. love it, mate. Come as you are.
Please test Tone Projects Michelangelo eq/saturator
Dunno if it poses that much of a threat tbh. It does a lot. The transient side of it is a pretty cool addition. Dunno, I need to think about that one cause there's a lot of complexity to testing that one
@@PaulThird I would love to see your thoughts/review video on it regardless
I use variety of sound and analog obsession plugins + my daw plugins all that is free and my mixes are as good as it could be with waves slates fabfilter or whatever banking stuff ! But I would be very interested to see someone check if my assumption is valid. Many of these guys plugins are wonderful, and they also have their own version analog hardware.
If you are have constant happy clients then don't change
I've been doing some comparisons of the AO and VoS plugs alongside some commercial "equivalents", using analysers and various tests, and the results have been mixed. Some of the freebies are of high quality (and can even sound better than paid plugins) but others are weak sauce. The AO plugs, in particular, can be quite bad with regard to aliasing, although it's not uniform across the range. Some of them are excellent, others are just bad. (In a couple of cases, I decided that I should delete the plugin because it was doing stuff that I really don't want it to do, even though my ears had never noticed the problem in the context of a mix). I can't really criticise the makers of freebies though. The biggest criticisms should be levelled at the makers of commercial plugs for things like emulations of LA2s, 1176s, and Pultec that not only sound and analyse quite differently to the hardware; they are no better - and are sometimes objectively worse - than freeware alternatives!
@@AutPen38 Thank you very much for your feedback. This sounds very interesting. I have yet to hear any such problem of aliasing (on certain AO plugins you have an oversampling function, not on all, but I think it may help). I would be very curious to hear from you what plugins from these guys are really a nono for you.
@@johanjof5613 Since there are so many in the list, it's pointless to pick out a couple. I'd recommend you run some tests of your own. You don't need Plugin Doctor (which I found crashes very often and locks up my PC, forcing a full reboot). I typically have a "test plugin chain" that consists of a sine wave generator (I like Melda's Oscillator), the plug-in I'm testing, and an analyser (like ProQ, or SPAN, or Melda's Analyzer). When all three are engaged and the sine wave is playing at -18dBFS at say 100Hz, you can see on the spectrum analyzer how many even and odd harmonics (and sometimes low-level noise) are created by the compressor/saturator/whatever and how loud they are compared to the fundamental. You can then manually sweep the sine wave up towards 22kHz and watch the harmonics "bounce back" when they hit Nyquist. On "good" plugins with high-quality anti-aliasing, these "bounce backs" are minimised or completely removed. Most of the Variety of Sound plugs I looked at were completely alias-free. The same couldn't be said about some of Analog Obsession's examples. They typically had quite a lot of aliased "bounce backs" and - rather annoyingly - switching on the 4x oversampling barely improved it. In some cases, the oversampling button appeared to do nothing at all. To be fair, the aliased harmonics were often quieter than -60dB (compared to an -18dB fundamental) but it's quite disconcerting to have a sine wave playing at 20kHz and seeing pretty big and un-harmonic spikes down at 500Hz and 700Hz or so, where there should be total silence.
Kazrog - Avalon VT 747 SP.
I would like to see a trustworthy test.
Access analog has the VT 737 SP.. Would that be close enough?
@@PaulThird Hey Paul.
I have no idea what the original sounds like.
But I would be interested in their digital replica, as this company has definitely read a Harry Potter book before.
That’s the one I was thinking of
@@PaulThird And yes ... Access Analog does it too ;)
@@PaulThirdit's modeling a different model, the 747 is not a pre. And I have my share fair of trepidation towards the Kazrog 747 after the latest update, would love to see you go through it with the fine comb
What was that genre - R-Pop, K-Pop or J-Pop reference to those that only do "helpful", "mainstream", "first hand" plugin reviews? 🤭😂🤣 I'd love to see you do tests using Plugin Doc 👌😇 I know it from you so I trust only your process haha
Testing?
@@PaulThird 😅 maybe wrong word choice on my end - reviewing/testing Plugins in depth alike yourself and Dan can only do, using the Plugin Doctor. Gets us all giddy to go get at least the demo and learn from it ourselves.
Tbh ill go back to the odd plugin doctor analysis but only when I feel it's needed. Trying to stay away from reviews unless I need to debunk or prove something
4:40 .......LMFAO.....ABSOLUTELY.......At least once a session.
Happens to the best haha
for you to be working a regular job and still be able to do this is highly inspiring. but i guess thats why u can afford EL REY .....speaking of which....since that R2R......will u speak on plugin developer on that stance now that everyone can get it? @@PaulThird
Don't fuck with an angry Dundonian.
Great video man!
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i feel like "just use your ears" is something that people tend to say to make older mixing engineers and musicians feel less bad about feeling repelled from ' modern' interfaces. modern in marks, because pro-q is not really a young plugin anymore, but I guess conservative people just move really slowly. plugin developers use this sentiment to their advantage sometimes by deliberately not spending time on crafting an interface with helpful visualizations and workflows, because the user wants to proudly 'use their ears' anyway
It's amazing how much visuals can change perception of what somebody hears. Psychoacoustics is mental
Honestly, there's nothing wrong with being the "Consumer Reports" of audio engineering/music production. Plus if you can do it consistently, then you have provided something valuable that others will benefit greatly.
Or you just enjoy using those filters/effects just to take the piss out of people ;) =]
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Unfortunately, some people on plug-in forums will buy into this mentality as well to rationalize their plug-in purchases. They've convinced themselves they have well-trained ears and can hear some sort of sweetness or "3D" in a plug-in compared to another. When asked if they've done a blind comparison, they often refuse and sometimes even become defensive.
The level matched blind test is the reality they don't want to be faced with
"Just use your ears" is great for professional studios. Unfortunately, most plugin customers are not working in professional studios. The marketing is designed mostly for the unprofessional masses. And don't forget, that next plugin is going to be THE ONE! So test the ones you are interested in. After all, it's your channel.
I'm definitely not testing every plugin anyway haha
More plugin dr. Reviews. I don't know how to use pid.
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Is this video sponsored by DDMF for Plugin Doctor? :D
Jokes aside, I think that an "educated" ear can judge if a plugin does interesting and relevant things no matter what Plugin doctor or similar tools tell about it.
I do n't have evidences at hand, but I'm pretty confident that some gear piece in the past - hardware! - has become legendary due to its own flaws (that now it's even being worked for recreation by plugin manufacturers!). So, the "if it sounds good, it's good" has some weight. Controversial topic but interesting discussion...
It's not about evaluating whether a plugin or piece of gear does interesting or relevant things, it's about whether you already have the tools at your disposal to do the same things.
Science can tell you that in 5-10 minutes
@@PaulThird same for your ears.... just compare (level matched); ears can be fooled it's true, but much less when comparing ;)
I hope you'll continue with this valuable work. I appreciate and so do many, many others, I'm sure. I'm subscribed to your channel, and I'll certainly join it for $2 per month if you provide a continuing stream of reviews that test plugin performance against marketing claims. Thanks.
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Yay. Rawr xD kitten 😆
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Scaler eq
Test Fuser please
I use it. Replaced trackspacer
@@PaulThird Oh, have you tried Soothe 2, to do that trick, and/or Smart:comp? Smooth operator? It would be nice to find the best trackspacing plugin out there... Not sure how to actually test it, though. I had completely missed Fuser, I will have to give it a look.
Fuser is quicker because it identifies the frequency clashing for you and then evaluates whether to dynamically take it from the mid or side channel. Saves you a lot of time
@@PaulThird I saw some videos of it now. Seems like a good plugin. Just wish it had some sort of smart auto-gain for the phase detection for layering, as it clearly made the sound louder in all the demos. I also like how in the warp academy video, he set up a separate side-chain trigger track for the kick, in order to reduce the effect on the bass (but it would have been nice if there was a transient/sustain split built in, to balance the processing in that way).
The most useless one was things like that Izotope synth thing, Where youtubes didn't know what it was doing and was just clicking some things and going "erm"
I recently re-watched some videos of baby audios crystalline reverb, because I was asked about it. And a lot of youtubers was just grabbing controllers all over, and didn't even know what they did, not because they are particularly unusual for a reverb, but the design of the controls are, so even people that know reverbs, did not even understand what they actually were doing. It is quite common for youtubers not to know what things does... I don't like in forums when someone tells someone to read the manual, because many manuals are hard to understand, or doesn't explain in a way that everyone understands... But I do feel that youtubers should spend some time actually getting to know the product. RUclipsrs really should not do "first look". Wytse in his first look videos, may start by looking at the product page, but typically it is apparent that he didn't fully understand what he read, got bored and instead got in to the product, not even understanding things he should have been able to understand. In other cases it is clear that it isn't properly explained anywhere.
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Remember to check out my working audio tools podcast if you want to hear my mixes and journey into becoming a full mixer
Weaver beats stuff is good, seems to still be holding companies feet to the fire
He's in a part of the audio world I dare to tread... Music producers haha
I'm pretty sure I've even seen supposedly professional audio engineers claim that their examples are level-matched because the peak values are the same 🤦
It's an easy loudness trick. Technically they are level peak matched but it has nothing to do with actual loudness in reality. That's like sticking your limiters ceiling to -3 and smashing the input gain vs an uncompressed source with natural peaks of -3.. Peak values are the same but the limited one is gonna smash your head off 🙈😂
Quite a few audio manufacturers, both hardware and software, have been "using/misusing" maketing for generations. And many of their "specs", and imaginative trademark words, and otherwise use of good-selling words like "warm", "smooth", "musical" etc🤗🤫 are in my experience far from trustworthy
Yup.. That analog warmth eh haha
@@PaulThird Hahaha...oh yup, thats one of them classic ones 👍🤫
I have a slightly different test for you: can you check to see if you’re having any issues running Sugar Bytes plugins at 512 buffer rate?
My system runs them very well at anything other than 512 buffer rate… it’s really strange. At 512, I get a few random pops and clicks in a blank project with one instance of Cyclop.
With 3 or 4 instances of Cyclop in a busy project at 256 or 1024 = zero issuses, runs like butter.
Any ideas?
System:
I9 (latest 24 cores @ 5.8)
128 GB DDR 5
Windows 11
Live 11
All tweaked for audio…
Anyone? Sugar Bytes still haven’t responded to me about this…
Not gonna lie, I've not even heard of sugar bytes plugins
Oh wow… they have a ton of heavy hitters!! Check ‘em out
It's so silly, isn't it?
I see even the ones that were brutally honest suddenly not being.
Money is a hell of an honesty boycotter.
And, you can't blame people with how flipping unfair life can be...
Even seen some ditching plugin doctor, saying, "I don't think it's telling the whole story" 🤦♂️
No, but it's telling a good portion of it 😅
It's a bit of a "let's just use the food we got" type thing, but doing that is actually causing more food waste.
And yes, money is an unfair game... so surely stop people from wasting their money then surely?
Or just try to save yourself and sell.
Well, often, a wise move is the just sell in the climate we live in.
Takes passion to do it differently.
The stupid thing is, I don't really enjoy those other channels as much anymore.
But I'll like a video to support them.
But I'll not stay long on that video.
So they kind of lost a subscriber but haven't.
Although, we have to admit... people only have time for RUclips when they can't do things.
Like myself... my God, the setbacks I have had have been next level and frequently.
Then RUclips is my avenue back into my passion.
When back into it, I'll need opinions to be sure to depend on as I'll have way less time for it.
I myself want to do this... but we need more than one honest opinion.
Plus, who knows when I'll do it with the setbacks I have??
Maybe it'll be quicker if I brown nose???
Is what most people think.
And what we now see again and again.
Hell, some don't even try to sound natural 😂
That's what I didn't realise until recently. Loads of industry engineers befriended me because I was doing stuff that they didn't have time for
@PaulThird I guess it's a case of the question of quality VS quantity in friends/followers... I stick with people myself unless it becomes very disagreeable.
But at the end of the day, every RUclips channel is just an entertainment channel, and there are millions, and people like to channel flick.
And your channel, unless you just love being nerdy in this way, you're only going to be here to get the scoop on something relevant to yourself and be out.
I personally love the humor.
It's very much the same as my own.
I sometimes get a bit bored going very into the science as I'm only here at the moment for future research, but I keep the videos saved for then... get just enough for now and then off watching something else.
Watching the numbers game on RUclips is a very delusional experience that you have to act on even if you'll not entirely sure what it is because of unlimited variables.
It's probably the most wing it constantly business to set up.
You have to equally trust as say "no, I need to change something here".
It's basically signing up to be "dance monkey".
Which, to be honest, can give us humans purpose.
At least it isn't stagnant living.
Scientific method for the win! It's everywhere, even in things like cooking. So, yeah, screw your ears, hahahah
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Thats why I erase everything and use stock plugins. Use the fat channel in studio one and nothing else. I have Uad native ones...but is all in your mixing skills. The rest is marketing. Make good music, record well with good musicians, the rest is the marketing industry, like dolby atmos.
Dunno about dolby atmos. I had Turra Medina on the podcast and hes getting like 70 atmos mixes a month or whatever
We wouldn't need any test software if we downloaded the free trial to see if we like the product or not. I never used you tube to decide if I wanted something or not with software. Best thing to do is try it for free. If you don't like it, don't buy it.... SIMPLE I have always used my ears in music... Thats not a bad thing either. If we don't train our own ears how will we know? Plugin Doctor won't help that. Maybe for someone new that has no experience at all to know what to listen for. I have played guitar Piano Drums Bass all of it for 30 years. Thats where I get my ears from. If you have no experience at all, then I'd say go for something like Plugin Doctor...
Same, been using my ears for decades - they work ok.
; D
People say that then fail blind tests so... 🤷♂️
I don't like blind tests either. Back in the day there was a Coke/Pepsi Blind test that I took and my favorite was Pepsi. Thats all I drank. I always said I hate Coke. But they pulled out a Coke as what I picked. I was like whaaaaat!? Hahaha Too many variables go into blind tests especially with Bias. Your mind can be easily tricked. I just go with what I like. Usually, I can feel it right away with tone. Especially with guitar tones.@@PaulThird
Right... But if you know that the mind can be tricked surely you would blind test yourself before shelling out £80-200 on a plugin, surely? A plugin can be usable and you like it but it doesn't mean that you don't already have a tool that can get the same sound. That's why testing scientifically spares you the time and the money
If it's stuff you already own then grab whatever takes your fancy but if your buying something, especially a big purchase like hardware you wanna know that it's not something you can already get with what you already have
Oh, I agree to be careful in what we buy and definitely don't let the marketing fool you. I just don't want to count on science when music was my first love. I look for tone first honestly. I was just commenting on the "using your ear" comment you made. But yeah, I use Studio One their stock plugins are awesome. I just started watching the how to videos for plugins that I did buy so I used them correctly. I did notice the marketing thing first hand when you can hear something that sounds bad but the person is claiming it sounds good especially for guitar amp sims. Hahaha
I hate that most of all. Plus, sometimes we can tell if they are bias for a certain product by how much our bull!@it meter is buzzing hehe... @@PaulThird
I can think of one plugin company and one plugin specifically that is utter bullshit. Good Math. Does literally nothing (nulls completely with raw audio) and the company literally says “use your ears, null tests are bullshit.” 🤦🏻♂️
Null tests are the concrete proof, anybody that says otherwise is just protecting their marketing
Love the old Paul 3rd, but not so much the drop the F-bomb in every sentence Paul 3rd.
That's just who I am. Come down to my neck of the woods and it's just how we talk
That's right
@@PaulThird To be honest I would prefer a more toned down version of you, but I don't come here for the show, I come here for the technical stuff. But I suspect that the algorithm prefer a showman, so in that way it may help you. But I know people that wouldn't be able to listen to your videos because of it, but that may benefit from the information. But I mean, music production youtube is quite over the top. I wish everyone in the field was quite a bit more like Dan Worrall (he has gotten me really lusting after the Pro R2, Surfer EQ2, for example, and I would even consider something like the Reverbshaper, just by him demoing it, without me even having an idea of when I would use it).
But you should do what works best for you. If making the types of videos you do takes you less time then planning out a more toned down video and deliver that, then that isn't your style. And from seeing a comment here about how much work you do, you clearly don't have any more time to spend on presenting in a way that takes you longer to produce.
You know Paul is being serius when hes throwing inclusive pronouns. Lol jokes aside I miss your super nerdy stuff
I have been told that this is the way to approach youtube now.. So just gotta roll with it
Turn it up, dude! 😎🥸
lugs over plugs as we have always said on here. digging the passion on this episode. fife4life dundidder. respectomondo
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for fuckin fuckin fuck sake like only us Scots can say it. @@PaulThird
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Remember to check out my autism channel if you want to learn more about my 🤓🤓