IMPORTANT.. MUST READ Whilst I thought I was keeping things purposely simple I'm getting comments regarding impedance. So to be clear. I'm not saying high impedance headphones can be easier driven than low impedance headphones. The discussion was originally about planars and dynamics but it was a bit too long winded so I cut it out. Heres what I took out the original edit as it was originally too long. "ohm + sensitivity relation is important. Just because a headphone is low ohm does not mean you can drive it easily and vice versa. It's all about how much MW is required to drive a headphone to highest level." I spoke about planar headphones especially because it's important to know that on the most part they require a lot more juice to power, for example, even though my sundaras are 30 ohm they require 314mv at 94dbspl which is inbetween HD 650 & 600 sennheisers!) and it also isn't reccomended to use a high impedance headphone amp with low impedance headphones as this can result in power issues and also lots of frequency related problems. WHY DOES OUTPUT IMPEDANCE MATTER? It matters for at least three reasons: The greater the output impedance the greater the voltage drop with lower impedance loads. This drop can be large to enough to prevent driving low impedance headphones to sufficiently loud levels. A real world example is the Behringer UCA202 with a 50 ohm output impedance. It struggles with some 16 - 32 ohm headphones. Headphone impedance changes with frequency. If the output impedance is much above zero this means the voltage delivered to the headphones will also change with frequency. The greater the output impedance, the greater the frequency response deviations. Different headphones will interact in different, and typically unpredictable, ways with the source. Sometimes these variations can be large and plainly audible. As output impedance increases electrical damping is reduced. The bass performance of the headphones, as designed by the manufacture, may be audibly compromised if there’s insufficient damping. The bass might become more “boomy” and less controlled. The transient response becomes worse and the deep bass performance is compromised (the headphones will roll off sooner at low frequencies). A few, such as those who like a very warm “tube like” sound, might enjoy this sort of under damped bass. But it’s almost always less accurate compared to using a low impedance source. I just massively simplified that in my video. So just ensure you have a headphone amp with an impedance ideally of no more than 2 ohms and do your research. Also for those looking for the scientific back up and research carried out by others, here is Amir's review of my topping dx7 pro+ on audio science review. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dx7-pro-review-dac-hp-amp.36978/ Honestly check out the rest of his reviews.. Valuable resource for the community. Don't go to sound on sound or any other paid advertising sites.. This is the right address!! Also here are some links for some of the product's mentioned (yes they are affiliate links.. Best I could get as I can't get them to send any gear my way 🤣) Presonus Revelator io24 audio interface www.thomann.de/gb/presonus_revelator_io24.htm?partner_id=94442 Topping L30 mk2 apos.audio/products/topping-l30-ii-headphone-amp?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM Hifiman Sundara planar headphones apos.audio/products/hifiman-sundara-planar-magnetic-headphones?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM Topping DX7 pro+ apos.audio/products/topping-dx7-pro-dac-amp-apos-certified?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM Audeze LCD-X apos.audio/products/audeze-lcd-x-open-back-headphone?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
It installed its own drivers on windows as soon as I plugged it in. Outside the daw I just select it in the windows speaker selection, In the daw I use the ASIO driver I had installed already
Thanks Paul - you keep costing me money. But I now have an L30 and an E30 and you are so right - what a difference in clarity! I'm still confused on the 80dB SPL listening level and how to measure that? In another video you mentioned 'gain staging' your monitoring path but I'm not sure how to do this. Currently I have the E30 set to 0dB output, L30 output gain at 0dB and driving Sennheiser HD650s so that they're loud but not threshold of pain. I'm also using iRealphones for crosstalk and (I assume) Harman curve with HD-650 model loaded. Am I missing anything? Another question - if my DAW session is 48k/24bit is there any point in setting the E30 to higher resolution? Appreciating your candid content.
Thanks, Paul. As a God Mode sound designer and producer I don't need to mix and master my perfect tracks. Mage! Mage, wake up! You're dreaming again. 😄
Regarding listening levels… In the very early part of balancing a mix, like balancing the kick/bass etc., i do turn down to where you can barely hear it. At that level, things completely disappear, and just above that level, you can hear clearly how main elements are sitting with one another. It’s super helpful. Once i have very basic balance, then it’s time to turn it up to proper level. Every once in a while checking loud and soft. I find i get the best results keeping at a good level, but occasionally turning wayyy down and up a little, briefly. And then, take breaks! Let your ears and brain reset.
I do a combo of mixing on headphones and mixing on speakers. I'm trying to lean more into headphones as my room is problematic to say the least and following watching this video I realise that I was listening too low on cans. I have a level that I like to mix at on monitors and I thought that if I was mixing on headphones then I should have them "feel" as loud as monitors. But after watching this I cranked my headphones when I was working and that alone was a game changer. I know "we perceive louder as better" but it's not that, the louder volume made the problems in the mix more apparent, masking etc. To Paul's line about "you can't mix what you can't hear" because of distortion etc from your crappy headphone amp or DAC "you also can't mix what you can't hear if you've got your cans down too low to hear where the problems are." Thanks very much Paul, I've a track to car test later after working on it at a higher level over the weekend and I'm hopeful that it's closer to being done than it's ever been.
also paul, if I have your attention. I was kicking the tyres on the topping headphone amp you recommended and they were also trying to sell me on their E 30 II DAC, any opinions on that unit? I'd be hopeful that it'd work as well as the DAC on the DX7 pro as I've no need for pres and TBH I wouldn't be willing to make that kind of investment at this stage.
My first mix listening loud was a big improvement. Explains a lot why I was adding in so much low end before. Pushing yourself to get as close to the flattest Fletcher munson curve is a big thing for mixing. I'm still trying to get my head round the fact that our ears are essentially a 2500 band multiband compressor.. Crazy 🤯
@@PaulThird I think that's a big part of it. This particular song I'm trying to pitch the tonal balance in between 2 references. And I kept struggling to figure out why it sounded so bad when I bounced it out to try it elsewhere despite being happy with it in my room. When I turned the volume up I quickly realised that I'd actually mixed it to be darker than the darker of the 2 tracks I was trying to get in between
I have a RME Babyface Pro FS I was curious if i needed a headphone amp , as i use headphones to mix If i do, or if you recommend doing so, will you please recommend something I trust your opinion after binging almost half your videos so far lmfao Thank You for your knowledge
Very good headphone for the price but doesn't exceed in anything. You aren't gonna get close up front detail of the ananda nano or soundstage of the HE1000SE, or even the average that's the sundara but it's gonna give you a £100 headphone that is clean enough to take eq and sound better than most dynamics double or triple it's price
I’m not sure how to measure 85dbspl on a pair of headphones… but if i set my speakers at 85db with a spl meter. And then try to match the level on my headphones, my brain is melting. Even on speakers, 85db is brain meltingly loud. I always try to change levels all the time. I have a stream deck hooked up to my rme ufx ii and have different snapshots set at different levels. 0, -6 and -25 db. I do most of my mixing at -6. That is roughly 75dbspl. Snapshots for different eq curves too. One ”hifi bad” with a huge shelf boost starting at 2k and nothing below 80hz. And one that sounds like my car. You really should get yourself a rme card. It improved my workflow many times the money i spent buying it. And it sounds great too. ;)
Feels loud to me as well but I've got used to it now. After reading mixing engineers handbook I knew the 80-85db thing was actually true. I used a db app on my phone and just stuck the microphone in the cups haha not ideal but it's a ball park. I then bought an SPL meter to make sure and the phone mic was off by 3-5 db which isn't massive but enough to justify the £30 for the meter
Amazing content. Although I love using my Audient id44 for tracking, I needed a set of headphones that work well for mixing., so, I purchased the Neumann NDH 30. Now I need a headphone amp that is worthy for theNDH30. I'm guessing the Topping will be a decent choice. What is the suggested method for integrating the Topping to my DAW (Reaper)? Cheers.
@@PaulThird Well, I think you sold me on the Topping DX7 Pro+. I'm not exactly sure how to connect it to the id44... I'm guessing the preferred connection should be the id44 optical out to the Topping DX7 Pro+ optical in. Also considering your suggestion for the Goodhertz can opener for crosstalk. Any additional suggestions? cheers.
Nice tips!, my mixes got way better when I started to use headphones.. but as always.. using references all the time... and I think its very important to know the frequencies your headphone pulls down.. or pump up... it can helps us to do less mistakes...
Nah not really. You can mix 16 hours at 80db spl. 8 hours straight at 85db spl. Theres been enough scientific tests done to show that. If that's loud you should go into some studios haha there are some pros that listen as loud as 90-95db and 80-85db is their conversation level 😅 Reading mixing engineers handbook opened my eyes quite a bit. In the end its all about taking regular breaks and not exposing your ears for long listening at any level. Your perception and judgement can lost pretty quick so if you are pacing yourself then 80-85db will be a breeze. The human ear is a very fascinating part of the human body and protects itself more than you think. Theres a great AES lecture all about it
ok Paul, that s good to know. Thanks for your clarification. Anyway, I tend not to go louder than 80dBs, even with guitar amps . Loved the video man, as usual. Keep it up, thank you ;)❤
Came back to say I just upgraded to RME ADI-2 with Audeze LCD-X and, well, after a week or so adjusting, I am extremely grateful for your advice, and effectively showing me where my weak link in the chain is. If you have a consumer interface with spdif or optical out, do yourself a favour, you will never look back.
I’ve had enough of hearing distortion in my DT770 80ohms, despite the Zoom Livetrack mixer headphone out being rated 100ohms (no problems at all through my A&H mixer which I use for live). I just bought a Topping L50 to counter this and improve SQ. Glad to see it wasn’t overkill. I bought first, then done my research so good to see we’re on the same page!
Paul, when you say 80-85 dB, do you mean dBA, or dBC? I think both of those are too loud to recommend, but dBC might be more passable. However, that's still loud levels. You'd wear your ears out if that was your normal levels. Like, you'd get hearing damage over time. I don't like that you say you need to mix at that level. The suggestion should rather be "remember to check your mix at higher listening levels, too", because that's a totally fair argument. Poor mixes do fall apart at higher volume levels, and it's important to keep track of, but I don't think we should argue to always have that listening level.
Read mixing engineering books and you'll read clear as day that they are listening around 80-85db.. The odd even louder. You can mix up to 8 hours at those levels and tbh you shouldn't be mixing more than 8 hours anyway as your ears will be shot by then. 80db is busy traffic. Science is just science. There's a reason why these guys mix at these levels. I asked the pro's I know and they all said 80-85db. In terms of weighted I measure dbC as that's what I was told but check that out www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm Solid information, collected and averaged
l have a SSL2 interface, what headphones would you recommend to mix with that? so far i have beyerdynamic dt 770’s 80 ohms Senheisser HD 280 Pros Audio Technicas M40x
I'd reccomend the ones that sound the best to you. The pair that translate into better mixes on more playback systems. . Nothing wrong with having other headphones for referencing though
@@PaulThird Thanks! I was asking because i kept seeing videos that low impedance headphones can mess with the interface and cause a distortion if you raise it up or something? Idk the Ohms for the SSL2 so i was wondering which headphones were the best for it.
Being honest, the topping l30 mk2 is like £140 and measures better than any headphone amp out there as far as I'm aware. Line outs of ssl into RCA in of topping, plug ANY headphone into it.. Job done, thank me later 👍 www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/
Hello, the SSL 2 can handle 80 ohms for sure. Anything past 250 Ohms is where you'd really need to switch interface. Don't you worry about that. The beyerdynamic dt 770s and 880s are a reference for a reason. Many universities teach with them for a reason - it's a classic. I think your interface matches your headphones. If one day, you decide to go up in budget, I recommend to skip the mid-tier of 400 Buck-Interfaces and go straight for something >800. Personally I am a RME-boy, so I'd recommend the Fireface for studio and the Babyface for travel or even studio (depending on your budget and what you do). When it comes to choosing headphones you really need to test them. Heads and ears are very different and this plays a bigger role with headphones than with speakers - and even speakers are very much a taste-thing (I like iLouds and Neumanns as speakers, I also got a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro and Focal Spirit One Studio Classic (not sold anymore) headphones). I suggest not to worry too much about having the "perfect" headphones for now - unless you're spending ~100 Bucks a month on plugins. In that case don't buy plugins for 8 months and get yourself a top-tier interface first and a top-tier pair of headphones 5-12 months later. Way better to invest in hardware (computer, interface, mic, headphones, speakers, room-treatment and room-optimizers (trinnov). The things I want to buy now, are the things I'd already own, if I hadn't spent the money on plugins that I never use. Now I've written a lot more than you asked for, but that's how I am somtimes, excuse me. So what headphones to use with your SSL2 interface? Yours are great for that! If you want to upgrade, upgrade the whole shabang. And don't buy plugins. The free kilohearts, melda and ableton/pro tools stock plugins are great and I use them all the time. I also use the fancy plugin here and there.. but at this point I'm pretty sure I do it mainly because I paid for them. I'd tell you which ones, but then you'd maybe go ahead and buy them instead of hardware and my whole novel here would have been for nothing - haha.
Hey Paul! Just found out your channel and already subscribed. Great content! I am wondering if you are still using the L30 II with the DX7, or is the hp amp on the DX7 the same as the L30 or better? Cheers!
Most audio interface headphone outputs are garbage, but the ones on RME are the best I've ever heard, when I jumped to an RME UFX years back, it finally retired my Earmax Valve headphone amp I was so impressed by it.
I have a Clarett+ 2Pre and a set of Neumann NDH-30 phones. Upgrading from Scarlett 2i2. Do I really need a headphone amp as well? Which would blow the Clarett away?
Hey man i am mixing on headphones and plan to do so for the next few years at least. I agree with you on everything but I dont want to have different devices for each component in the chain, something compact is what I look for. Do you think RME Fireface latest version covers everything perfectly, AD/DA, headphone amp?
Hey Paul, I hope you get to see this, please Advice me, I mix on headphones 80% of the time. I've got Audioent ID24, and I've got Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro 250ohms and Sennheiser HD650. What RME product should I get for better monitoring both on headphones and my Monitors (Adam Audio A7X). Thanks
I have a 2 day old baby chicken 🐔 whose mother got taken by a fox all 7 siblings also died. The only way I calmed it down was to put pair of headphones next to it with your soothing voice from this video on repeat. It fell asleep and rested for a couple of hours. BTW the chic didn't care that it was coming out of a cheap DA.
@@PaulThird I finally got an expensive DAC and things are so clear. I finally heard your voice clearly enough that now I can confidently rule out that you speak in an Australian accent.
When released in September dx7 pro+ had the best SINAD (THD+N) of any DAC measured on audio science review. We are splitting hairs though cause the dx7 pro DAC measures -119db THD+N which means it has 15db less noise and distortion than the DAC of an audient id44. -123db THD+N of dx7 pro+ is still in reality a 4db improvement of a measurement that was already more than anybody would need from a DAC. However, the Dx7 pro Headphone amp has an output impedance of 6 ohm which can affect linearity in headphones under 60 ohm. Not advisable for a lot of planars (audeze, hifiman etc). Dx7 pro+ has virtually a zero headphone output impedance which is awesome. The dx7 pro+ is basically the best that topping can offer using the best converter chips and their own circuitry. Refined everything and corrected every issue in dx7 pro. Perfect linearity. No ESS IMD hump, jitter is that low its practically unmeasurable. In Amir's own words. A guy that's properly tested practically every high grade DAC and amp on the market. "impeccable performance for a DAC" The pro+ headohone amp has the same signal to noise ratio as the RME ADI 2, incredibly low noise and distortion and it doesn't clip at 32 & 300 ohm so if you hear any distortion it's the headphone, not the amp. The dx7 pro+ is basically end game for a DAC/AMP.
@@PaulThird you are the man! Thank you for taking the time to respond and clearly explain all of this!! I was extremely happy with my pro until I read this 🤣🤣 I still am but every little bit helps! Cheers!
Ive been mixing thru headphones using the Audioquest Dragonfly. For years its been my go-to DAC and headphone amp. The difference of that DAC/amp to other audio interface is literally NIGHT & DAY. It was a good investment for me instead of buying budget(to mid-tier) audio interfaces. Accurate listening in headphones is very crucial. Cheers! 🙂🙂
Hi Jess. I'm looking at getting a headphone amp and noticed the Audioquest Dragonfly have the bonus of being very small! Do you recommend a particular model? Also, does the fact that they are USB increase the CPU usage? (as opposed to thunderbolt/ USB-C)
@@evanmcgregor3758 HI! Im using Dragonfly Black 1.5. to my knowledge it doesn't consume any CPU usage. its a plug-and-play USB. No drivers needed. Cheers! 😄
You may have convinced me to get a headphone amp, i am currently using planar mixing headphones plugged into the focusrite 2i2. I thought because it can get loud enough for me that it was good enough, but i'm going to try the Topping L30 mk2 and i'm interested to see the difference that will make for the clarity.
@@g.o.9513 I bought the topping l30ii and It seemingly makes no difference unless you're coming from something truly crap, it turns out my focusrite 2i2 was indeed good enough to power my planars and i can't tell any obvious differences between the two when volume matched.
That's really surprising cause I've had a lot of people comment and DM to thank me for reccomending the L30ii and quite a few had 2i2's and offer focusrites If you can't hear it then you hear it but if you still have L30ii could you do me a favour and try the test I do when comparing headphone amps. This also applies to anybody else reading this. FYI Gain needed depends on the sensitivity of the headphone. My sundaras had a low sensitivity but not all planars do. A lot do need a lot of gain but depends Also, Before you do this ensure you are listening around 80-85db spl 1. Listen to hella good by no doubt and listen particularly to the snare. There should be an audible transient difference as the topping measures a very quick transient response which is where many hp amps struggle. You'll gear a difference in the snap of the transient. 2. Listen to the chorus synth in hella good and compare the distortion of it as I normally find this as a good distortion test as that synth can lose clarity very quickly on lower quality systems (this is probably more of a DAC thing but I recall hearing it compared to the audient hp amp) 3. Listen to the acoustics and vocal clarity of stay by post malone. Normally I find the vocal is a little more intelligible and guitar a little more detailed due to the transients and ultra low distrortion. 4. For low end listen to typhoon by royal blood. This should be a good low end distortion and transient test. Like the no doubt track listen to the transient response and if the low end of the kick is slightly cleaner If after all that there is no difference to your ears, then it doesn't really matter what you use or buy headphone amp wise. And that's not me being a dick, there's just no point expirimenting further with hp amps as the topping measures better than nearly all hp amps out there As a final note though, remember that the DAC will always bottle neck the headphone amp. So if you can't hear a difference in a headphone amp then try comparing interface to a good dac amp or dac amp combo
@@PaulThird I did keep the topping as i got a great deal on it and it's good to have just in case i ever get high impedance headphones. And I just tried these tests, i still can't really hear an obvious difference between my 2i2's headphone out and the topping. To give more info, my headphones i'm using are the avantone planars which are 32 ohms and have a sensitivity of 104 dB/1mW, which i think it quite easy to drive? I'm not sure, but also i tend to listen to my music and mix at quieter volumes to prevent ear fatigue over long sessions. It is possible that i might just not be trained to listen out for transients, but i personally can't tell an obvious difference between the two, at least with these headphones.
Sundaras have a lower sensitivity so need more juice in order to drive them. Thus why a headphone amp like the L30ii is perfect for all headphones. Even Dan Clark stealth
In most you can run the amp straight from the interface line outs (if you are not using monitors or have 2 sets of line outs) but not a DAC/AMP unless both your interface and DAC/AMP allows optical or coaxial spdif connection. The reason you need an spdif connection is because the interface always has to be the master so the DAC/AMP has to run as a slave and recieve digital audio from the interface. OR you simply use the interface in the daw when recording and switch to the DAC/AMP for mixing
Great video, but very confusing to me because of your claims about the new amplifier. I'm currently struggling to understand the differences between amplifiers, and since you already have the same interface as I do (Audient), this gets even more confusing to me, because it makes no sense to me that another amplifier just changes the sound of the headphones. Many people told me that amps have one purpose, to give enough current or power to the headphones, while keeping a flat frequency response. The Audient from what I've read, does that very well. The only thing I know about the interface that might back up your claims is that the Audient headphone output impedance is 22 ohms, so it might color low impedance headphones and might make them sound, tonality wise, worse. But having better details, crisper transients and better imaging? it makes no sense to me, it might be that topping colors the sound differently, and makes you think that the headphones just sounds better. But at the end of day you're using the same headphones, how can it really sound any different? So now I just want to explain my situation: Audient iD4 mk 1, powering DT 770, DT 1990 and Kali LP6 (which you also have) all above 80 ohms To give you an example of how I hear things, my inbuilt PC jack sounds exactly the same to my cheap dongle and to the Audient iD4, the only difference is power, and maybe maybe a tiny bit of distortion with my PC connection. I know sound is subjective, which is why I'm really curious what you think about all of this, maybe I'm getting it all wrong and interfaces compromise on headphone jacks, maybe topping is just insane, or maybe it's just a problem with Audient.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/ There is a lot science involved and various factors that can affect the sound of headphones. The topping is the opposite of coloured. It's as clean and transparent as any headphone amp on the market. You essentially want a headphone amp to have an output impedance of no more than 1-2ohm (Julian Krause says the same). This is because of the way that low ohm dynamic headphones & low ohm IEM's are affected with higher impedance headphone amps. This can cause dampening which affects the frequency response as well as added distortion. A big problem with interface headphone amps is power, and not just high power, high power with low distortion. When you get into the realms of planar magnet headphones and high impedance headphones like Sennheiser HD600, you require an amp that can drive the headphones adequately to the required levels due to many of them having low sensitivity. That's why high power with low distortion is very important. Even IEM's can get pretty noisy through low quality headphone amps. As for transient response the amplifier has to react to transients of the source to be able to amplify them. It's not a power supply, it's an amplifier. Transient response measures how quickly an audio system can respond to changes in sound level. Specifically, it refers to the system's ability to accurately reproduce transients, which are the sudden changes in sound level that occur at the start of a waveform. So if the headphone amp isnt quick enough to react to the initial transient of the waveform then it will result in a softer sound in its amplification. If it's quick enough to react to the analog signal then it should be able to effectively amplify the whole transient. We are dealing with analog sound waves passing through circuitry and if you think of the headphone amp as your bottleneck then it's going to theoretically have an affect on the purity of the signal in the same way you pass a guitar signal through a DI box or a 1073.. its an amplifier at the end of the day and the quality of that circuitry & signal path has a limiting affect of the purity of the original signal, how pure the signal comes out the other end is defined by the signal path of the amplifier. Budget Interfaces normally cant afford or have the space to include a high quality signal path for every headphone. Universal audio told me that themselves. It's a compromise, where a well built headphone amp has no compromise, it's built only to amplify the signal going into a headphone. Its price, size and circuit path reflect that
Cool! I just got the Slate VSX after years of thinking about it.. they are really next level from my earlier setup with Sonarsworks and AKG K550mkII.. next in your setup 😎?
I have a Presonus 1824c with BeyerDT99's - I would love to upgrade soon but for now, well you tell me, if you feel like checking out my new track, do I need to?
I wouldn't be using 1824c for mixing on headphones. One of the highest THD+N measurements I've seen and it's working impedance range is a minimum of 32 ohms which cancels out most audeze headphones if you choose to upgrade in the future. Doesn't state headphone output impedance but the fact its working range of 32 and above would tell me that it has a high output impedance so for your beyers yeah it'll be fine but you upgrade to planars or low impedance cans in the future.. Not advisable. At that price, presonus has to cut some corners, it's inevitable offering 8 ins and outs for £360, so you get what you pay for. Id be upgrading the headphone amp at least. Personally I'd advise a dac/amp. You can link it to your 1824c via the spdif out if the DAC/amp has coaxial input. Dunno if the 1824c optical out does spdif or adat only but if it does optical spidf out and the DAC amp has an optical port you can link it that way as well so you have a pure digital signal being fed to it. Alternatively you can just use your presonus for recording and your dac/amp for mixing. Either way I'd be advising an upgrade as you can't mix what you can't hear but I'll leave that decision up to you
@@PaulThird Major thanks is due! I am thinking to go RME, just need to save for a bit, and wait for a good time to make the purchase! I may just upgrade the 1824c completely as the thought of outboarding without "the good converters" keeps me up at night.
I still remember I was bored once at school and was dared to set the fire extinguisher out the window, which I did cause I didnt even want to be in school I left like 10 minutes later and f*cked off home early. A teacher noticed foam spray raining down and came up and somebody said it was me. Her genuine reply (in a northern Irish accent) "Paul Third???.. Is that even his real name!?.. Your having me on." Walked out and nothing was ever said as the teacher thought they were having her on 🤣🤣
Great vid Paul! How do you have the Topping DX7 Pro+ setup in Studio One? Do you have that setup as the main driver in the settings or are you using the revelators drivers and somehow connecting to the DX7 Pro+? And are you then going out of the DX7 Pro+ into the L30 m2? Sorry for the confusion but I was looking at the RME too and seeing you do this... I've got the duck thing going on at the moment too until big grandma duck drops the golden egg ;)
Hmm. worth a thought, there. I've got a mobile recording rig with two audient ASP880's going into an iD44 - PayPal and other credit facilities - been there, too. Well, at home, I use an Audient iD22. I mostly mix, or record me, so I don't need the 'rig', but what I have noticed is the single headphone out on the iD22 is considerably, louder, punchier and fuller than the either of the Headphone outs on the iD44. Same headphones; Audio Technica ath M50. But, I can't use the iD22 for the rig, because it's only got one light pipe. And the wee Mackie 4-way headphone amps I used recently didn't really help me as much as I thought they would. Need to do some research. Good channel, Paul. Love your cheeky-chappie honesty
haha - spends 700 quid on a headphone amp. Makes a video reinforcing how important headphone amps are. ;) - by the way, I have an ur816c which has 'ok' specs. Still way better than anything used to make most of the highest regarded recordings ever - also, used to have an RME fireface. It was very very good and only got rid of it because firewire died a death.
You know me.. I make videos on what takes my focus that particular week haha And I paid £700 for a dac AND headphone amp combo .. Least get it right! 😜 Haha My topping l30 mk2 which is just a headphone amp was only £140.. Bargain!!
Hi Paul, i’ve got an sennheiser hd650. Its 300 ohms…and its connected to the scarlett 2i2 interface…do i still need an headphone amp to achieve more out of my headphones?
Should be fine frequency response wise as it 1 ohm hp output impedance. Transients wise you'll probably hear a difference with the L30ii though. I can't say for sure cause I've never tried a focusrite but transient response is awesome on the topping
you can not compare the thd of an amp to a dac.... yep RME is as good as it gets for interfaces but the converters are either AKM or ESS anyways so thats not part of it.... there is more to the sound quality then just the converters and additionally RME is loved for their unbeatable drivers and low latency performance
I never said you could. I discussed about using a headphone amp instead of the one in your interface and then talked about the importance of a top grade dac
Use a good db app on your phone, put the phone mic in between the cups and measure. Not fool proof but gets you ball park. Use a few phones and different apps though to make sure you are getting semi consistent results I bought an SPL meter just to make sure
Hi Paul, thank you for your immense help and support sharing your experience and what you honestly know to work or do not, in this industry sea of information, especially with the increasing consumerism oriented marketing 😅. Thank you for so neatly listing all equipment you use or recommend for us newbies. 😂 Would you be so kind as the nice lad you are, and walk us through your signal flow chain in your studio? Excuse my ignorant nature, alike yourself I was very laid back and lazy at uni doing my Music Tech "Specialist" degree in UWL 🙏😅 - is it from your Interface to the your DAC convertor/Headphones Amp (by the way - is the Topping, both DAC & headphone amp too😮?) to then arrive to your monitors? Or are you also going through the Presonus io24, or was that just a recommendation? 😅 Apologies for the confusion and long winded numerous questions - trying to wrap my head around the whole chain as I'm with UAD, and don't think the DAC nor the headphone amp are transient enough for me to get the most appropriate translation of a sonic, in the current gear setting I've dipped myself in. 🤭 Appreciate you and your work ever so much Mr. Third! Please don't let anything stop you from being the change in the world you'd like to see - cause from where I look at it, you're already making a significant change of the scene. 🤗😇 P. S - as I trully respect your time and suspect you being incredibly busy with all that humongous output of yours - any hopes if not now, somewhere in the near future to have you as my tracking /mixing / mastering mentor? 😅 Much love and respect from a Bulgarian fan in London 🤩
My current chain is topping dx7 pro+ DAC amp receiving the daw audio from apollo X6 via Spdif. The audient SP8 in the live room is connected to the X6 via 10m ADAT. The topping l30ii is connected to 2 line outs of the SP8 for headphone use in the live room. So basically the X6 is the main hub with the rest being fed digitally over ADAT & spdif
@@PaulThird you're a legend for taking the time to respond so quickly & promptly 🙏 thank you so much! Any prospects for mentorships with you as a mixing accolate? 🤩
I've agreed to do it with somebody already so don't know how much time I would have but feel free to Email me on Paulthird.taysound@gmail.com and we could discuss pricing and stuff if that's something you really want.
@@PaulThird That probably doesn't give you anywhere near an accurate sound level. I read somewhere that when tested an iPhone mic was misreporting the environment by 10dB, and given that sound pressures are logarithmic that result is less than useless.
That's why you use multiple phones and a few different apps to cross reference. If your really anal about it I suppose you could buy an SPL meter from amazon and do it that way 🤷♂️
Paypal credit lol! I love it. I have the RME Babyface Pro FS - similar tech. However you know the most important thing. The Song! You can only go so far. I agree though, no more fucking plugins!
I own an Audient ID14 mkii presently was thinking of upgrading to an ID44 mkii. But recently I have been thinking of getting an interface with reference grade AD/DA converter so I can mix well. Do you think a Prism Lyra 2 is best for that or what 2 channel DA/AD converter can you recommend
Chibai Paul, The Night vs Day part gives me anxiety and reason to consider good DAC 🤦 ..BTW, Do you know any good song/ mix reference track that is clean sounding, flat and boring but good balance that you can tweak with EQ for taste and use that EQ curve on while monitoring during mixing, so that it compensates our taste / style of how we treat the Freq/Timbre/Dynamics in our mixes... 🤔
*** Anyone know where I can read reviews of the HIFIMAN Ananda Nano by * musicians/mix engineers * ? ..every time I Google its comes up with audiophiliacs reviews and "is it good for gaming" reviews .Not exact;y confidence building as much as I appreciate Paul's endorsement.. I'm mixing not mastering-primarily headphones TX ***
Cause its just out. Think it's only been out like over a month. It's not just me thats using nano. I asked hifiman after emrahs strong reccomendation of ananda v3. Emrah mixes with nanos now Pretty sure he's mixed a Turkish number 1 with them already haha
@@PaulThird Thank-you my Scottish bros! Yes I listened to the whole podcast, I just wont more of an overview before I drop 1000 Canadian beavers!$. I'm sure these are amazing!
One mote question Mr. Third. I god a lake people headphone Amp. Like it a lot built like a tank but I get a kinda loud pop when I turn it on with the phones plugged in. You have that experience on your both your units? 😊
Couldn't say, my setup turns on all at the same time. As soon as I switch on the computer everything powers up so I never have my headphones on when the amp switches on
I have Audeze LCD-x 2021 which are very easy to drive and i powered them with focusrite scarelet 18i8 2nd gen. From my listening experience it sounds very good. I have custom eq curve when i am listening on them as well as i'm mixing. I do not know am i missing something because not having dac, amp or better interface in terms of sound. Loudness is not a problem. Do you think is it worth to invest more into these setup? Thanks
Believe it or not focusrite headphone amps are one of the exceptions to the rule. 18i8 has a headphone impedance of 1ohm which you'll struggle to find on other interfaces. You can run any headphone on that and tonally not worry about the sound where your lcdx 2021 really wouldn't be reccomended on most other interfaces cause they have a much higher headphone output impedance Dunno how much power it has for hungry planars and high impedance cans though. The DAC is a very big factor. I know cause I've got arguably the best external headphone amp and I can hear differences in DAC whether it be audient, universal audio, presonus. The dx7 pro+ is something I've never heard elsewhere. Maybe it's the ESS sabre chip combined with toppings own dac circuitry.. Not entirely sure but a good DAC can do wonders to what you hear. Interface to interface.. Its subtle until you get into RME universal audio etc
@@PaulThird Check them if You Can, Amazing. Giancarlo from AA said me that they are the best. I don't know if they are the best but for sure they are Amazing
hello, I have bought the beyerdynamics dt770 pro with 250 ohm. I have spent the whole day looking for interfaces that can run 250ohm easily and I wanna ask if the topping L30 II can handle it. Im beginner so I don't have the knowledge so Im asking the pro here.
@@PaulThird Hey, thanks for answering. I am little confused after watching some reviews about it and looking your video again. Is the L30 II alone enough or do I need to put the E30 II on top of it to make it work and why do you have the L30 II connected to an interface, isn't the L30 II a interface by itself ? My only goal right now is to use my headphones and to mix with them and people told me that I need to get an amplifier/interface and recommended me to buy a focusrite 3rd gen, but it can't run 250 ohm afterr watching some reviews. I am really confused and would appreciate your help
Headphone amp isnt a digital to analog converter. It's an amplifier. It amplifies an analog signal. An interface is a DAC. That's why the L30ii needs connected to the interfaces line outs as that's where it recieves the analog signal. You can get a DAC amp like my dx7 pro+ or combine the L30ii with a seperate dac, or just connect it to your interface
Hi Paul, enjoying your channel. As a fellow Scots tight a*** I tried for ages to squeeze good results out if cheap gear (with some success) but during the pandemic when I stepped up my home recording I got increasingly frustrated with how my mixes transferred outside of my studio. After trying a more modern interface with a good reputation for DA conversion (which wasn’t cheap) but didn’t get on with my computer. I ended doing the same as you and (using finance) I upgraded to the RME Fireface UCXII interface you pictured plus some Adam monitors. It was an expensive outlay but the difference in terms of what I can hear in my mixes and the transparency of the conversion is night and day. My conclusion is that with patience and a lot of referencing and moving your mix round different audio systems you can definitely get good results but it is so much easier and efficient to be able to hear issues straight away as you can with better gear. Keep up the good content, much appreciated!
My experience is the same. I did my first mix this week listening at 80-85db with the dx7 pro+ using the least amount of plugins I've ever used and my mastering engineers told me that the mix I produced was such a big improvement, even from the mix I made fixing my tilt
I'm gonna say yes, purely because there arent many DAC/headphone amp combos that measure as good as the dx7 pro+ or RME. But that's my guess regarding an apollo, not an actual tested opinion BUT I do plan on testing that out with Ed early in the year when I go to London
Hey Paul, awesome tips! I'm slowly upgrading my headphone setup for production/mixing. Might be a dumb question, but do these Topping DACs have any more latency than pro audio interfaces?
Latency is something to worry about when recording as its a full round trip. ADC picking up the signal and then being converted to digital, and then transferred back to analog in the DAC so you can hear it. Using a DAC is just purely for monitoring purposes so just digital to analog conversion. That's why you would need a seperate interface for recording. I have a recording setup and a mixing setup that I switch between. Alternatively if you want the best of both worlds in one package then an RME interface like UCX ii would be your best shout but you'll pay slightly more dependent on how many pre's you need. My whole recording and monitoring set up costs around £950 where a 2 channel RME ucx ii costs around £1200. Can be argued you'd be may as well paying the extra for the RME as the ADC side is better spec but I like the revelator pre's and the real time DSP uses presonus fat channel which includes their high quality emus like 1176, la2a, pultec, gate, etc which has become pretty invaluable for my situation for recording the podcast, zoom calls, live stuff etc etc So it really comes down to your specific situation and what you can afford
@@PaulThird Thanks man! My headphone setup right now consists of an Apogee Duet (ipad/mac version) feeding a Subpac S2 from the headphone out and a Topping L30 (mk1 late serial) from the line out, with a Focal Elex plugged into that. Looking at ASR tests, the Duet could be the weakest link in the chain atm, and I feel like what you're saying in your video kinda supports that theory for me. So I'm thinking I should probably get one of those great measuring cheaper Topping DACs for monitoring as a logical next step, and keep the Apogee for recording, like you did. Or should I get rid of the L30 and go balanced with a DX7, is the upgrade to balanced worth the difference? The Elex came with a balanced cable as well. Btw for long hours of production and just pleasure listening I love the waves nx abbey road plugin with the head tracker with this setup (at 96k). I lose a little bit of detail, but I get a very deep and holographic stereo image especially on the main monitors that to my ears I can't find in other room sim plugins so far. Some say the tracker is a gimmick, but I can actually work longer when I have it on. I just bypass the plugin when I need the intimate and insane detail of the Elex, but I spend most of my time on the nearfields or mains so I don't get ear fatigue. I've rolled the bass off so it evenly fades into the visceral lows of the Subpac, which gets a separate clean signal. Loving this setup going 2 years now.
The DAC is a huge part of what you are hearing. I didn't think I'd hear much difference going from the id44/l30 mk2 combo to the dx7 pro+ but it actually makes a lot of sense as it's proper DAC where the l30 mk2 is being fed the signal from the audient line outs which imparts its own sound. Just a purer signal with the dx7 pro+ but the converters also play a big role as they are using ESS SABRE ES9038PRO chipset which is their flagship. Those chips get used a lot for home theatre use and stuff. And also its really high quality 24 bit Bluetooth transition as well which I've still not even tested haha
Thanks for your input, many wise things you´re saying here. I personally went from RME ADI DS heigh end converters to Digigrid, and thought wow this is so much better!! Then recently tested a MOTU 828es and again: It was better, more clarity, definition and soundstage. I learned from a friend whos works for a manufacturer for music gear, that it is not only about RME or else, but it makes a different how old the convertes are. In the last couple of years AKM and ESS developed amazing products and that is what´s making it happen. ESS Sabre chips is what MOTU uses and many others like RME are using AKM chips, but they are alle great. Even the cheaper presonus Quatums are using AKM´s and the sound awesome, watch the comparison from the Quatum vs the Apollo x16 here on RUclips, it´s a blind test and you can not tell a difference!
Toppings flagship devices are ESS chipset with their own circuitry. Their budget options are AKM and they still measure better than a lot of mid price interfaces but interesting how topping prefer ESS chipset
Yep, the RME stuff is great. Total Mix FX is a pain though (it's powerful, but it's a pain). Also: If you have sensitive ears or usually don't listen to music on headphones: don't mix on headphones. Just don't. Even mixing on iLouds will get you better results in that case AND feel like a vacation. Get your room half-decent, do the rest with room-correction software and enjoy your life.
@@PaulThird If you are used to it, why not. I only use my headphones for cross checking and only with Sienna. I am used to monitors. I feel insecure with mixing on headphones.
Hello, thank you for the interesting video. Can you use the Topping DX7 directly as an audio interface (only for monitoring)? Or is there a reason why you go via the Audient audio interface?
Yes if you use ASIO driver in the daw. Outside of DAW you can use dx7 pro+ driver. I keep the revelator & l30 mk2 combo for recording as the dx7 pro+ is purely a DAC. No ADC in there.
Good video, Paul. It’s the same conclusion I’ve arrived at. Have you ever read Nwavguy’s site? He details the creation of his odac and O2 amp. Audeze headphones are something I always found strange when I’ve heard them. I’ve heard some electrostat setups at Axpona that were great but I only liked them maybe 5% more than using the Nwavguy stuff with a K701. There was some RME interface that measured about as well or better than the Hilo. Great to see you posting the data about impedance. These companies could all just try to integrate the O2 approach so low and high impedance phones will work well. Instead they don’t usually bother to tell us much of anything about the headphone section. You’re doing everyone a big favor with the advice you gave here.
Interesting stuff. Just wanted to ask if Topping L30 II sounds better than Topping DX3 Pro+ and built in SSL 2+ hp amp? How would you rate these three?
@@PaulThird Thx for the answer Paul. But would be L30 II an upgrade vs DX3 Pro+? I didn't fully get - "don't rate any of the SSL interfaces" - It means you don't know them to judge how their hp amps sound?
I know how they measure and I know a few guys that have had them and tested them. Emrah tested the SSL and told me that the hp amp audibly colors and distorts the sound when pushing the volume. Pretty much useless for cleanly driving headphones with low sensitivity. If you look at the specs it'll tell you enough. Output impedance of 10 ohms which is decent but not great. You are looking for impedance of 1 ohm as anything above 1-2ohm can impact the frequency response of low ohm dynamic headphones. THD of 0.05% is -66db which is in the audible range and not specifying at what mW/ohm so most likely even higher when pushed which explains Emrah's issue. 100mW max power into 32 ohm is very poor. Toppings e2x2/e4x4 interface has a professional grade hp amp and offers 580mW into 32 ohm. Even toppings £100 dx1 dac amp offers nearly 3 times the power at 32 ohm with 280mW. SSL doesn't have the power to drive planars correctly, nor offer clean power, or guarantee a flat frequency response with low ohm headphones That's why I don't rate ssl interfaces for headphones
@@PaulThird Thx for feather explanation Paul, I appreciate it. Now it's clear to me. So both DX3 Pro + and L30 II are an upgrade vs SSL2+. I already have DX3 Pro+, is its worth to buy an L30 II for mixing purposes? I can't afford RME or DX7 Pro yet;)
Nah dx3 pro+ will give you as much as you need. L30ii in conjuction with dx3 will give you more clean gain but you only need that if you plan on driving something super hungry like dan clarks or something
A struggle ive had is that a lot of studio monitor headphones are great for hearing detail when tracking but are extremely colored in a way the can sound great but makes it difficult to guess how it will translate. Tried 7506, 770, 990, and k240. I have a bunch lying around that are more for listening, hifiman, grado, etc. and those were probably safe to write off but the pair I didnt try for the longest time was my sennheiser 598. That a basic plugin to simulate crossfeed and mono and youre golden. I actually dont prefer them for listening because i find everything sounds very warm and almost murky. I gave it a try and matched my recordings to how songs i love sound on them. I was able to judge the dimensions and also pleasantness of the sound better than elsewhere and it translated better to both other headphones and speakers. I love the sizzle of v shaped studio headphones and when i listened back on those it was there. Im not saying sennheiser is neutral, but in the same way youve recommended louder listening there was something about the sound signsture of the sennheiser that felt very easier to work with a produced good results.
@@PaulThird by the way, i picked up the amp you recommended. Very very very good idea. The day i got it i started working on a new album and im at the 40 minute mark now. The amp, the use of the 598, and a sterling ribbon mic were the biggest changes i made to my workstation and im super happy with the results. I owe you a big thanks for your contribution
Hello, Paul! I have Lexicon IO22 and Hifiman Sundara. Thinking about buying a headphone amplifier, Topping L30 maybe, but I still don't quite understand how to connect the line out on the soundcard and RCA on the amplifier, are there any kind of adapters?
www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Neo-Oyaide-dand-RTS-Class-B-1-4TS-to-RCA-1-Metre/1YHN?origin=product-ads&gclid=CjwKCAjw8JKbBhBYEiwAs3sxN5rQjpT6V3bsdsQM9_viZxB4R6oSg0xvPIlzhF1jVF47miO1SQ52YhoCcg0QAvD_BwE Pretty sure thats exactly what I bought. You need to buy a cable separately and it's really simple. Line outs of lexicon into RCA of l30. Set up the routing on your computer as if you are listening to monitors (line out 1-2 for example) and listen through the topping.
Sundaras are high end, they just don't cost as much as focals and audeze. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hifiman-sundara-review-headphone.22529/ My mentor had lcdx and compared to sundara. Ditched audeze and uses sundara every day
On x4 you use optical spidf. S/PDIF Optical I/O When set to S/PDIF, an optical port routes two channels of digital I/O with resolutions up to 24-bit at 96 kHz. Sample rate conversion can be performed on the S/PDIF input. This setting is enabled within the S/PDIF channel’s input strip in the Console application. When the sample rate of the incoming S/PDIF signal does not match the sample rate specified in the Console application, the S/PDIF signal is converted to match Apollo x4’s sample rate. If Apollo x4 is set to use external S/PDIF clock source, sample rate conversion is inactive. Tip: The S/PDIF output can be configured to mirror the Monitor Outputs, for routing the stereo monitor signals to the stereo S/PDIF input of other devices. This feature is set with the DIGITAL MIRROR menu in the Hardware panel within the Console Settings window
First of all happy christmas to you and your family. second - I have a second gen scarlett 18i20, the thd is worse than the topping, but it's the same on the line outs as the headphone amp, wouldn't that be the weakest point in the chain and defeat the point? or is the extra level coming from the topping meaning lower output from the scarlett solving that? would love to know if it's worth it to add to my setup but obviously don't wanna spend if there's gonna be no point. or am I missing the point entirely and should be getting an external DAC as well to bypass the scarlett entirely?
DAC makes a big difference. The DAC chipset each use has a lot to do with the sound. The headphone amps will always be bottle necked by the interfaces DAC & line outs but the amps are more for ensuring lowest headphone output impedance as well as power for hungry headphones. That's where low THD headphone amps really come into their own to my ears when they are being pushed to power hungry cans. I think most of the scarlett stuff is 1ohm which is great BUT I always hear an improvement on transients and distortion with the topping l30 compared to budget interfaces. The best scenario is to get a dac/amp combo which is what I did.
@@PaulThird thanks for the reply! that makes me think investing in the dx7 would maybe make more sense. I mostly use the vsx headphones these days so I'm not battling impedance really, so again I guess I get concerned I'll not get the full benefits. After watching so many of your videos though (and trying out nebula because of you) it's difficult not to get excited about something when you get excited about it haha. suppose I can always get something and return it if I'm not hearing enough difference though. apologies for my adhd rambling, nice to talk to someone so knowledgeable though who isn't being paid to sell me something
You should also spend some time listening to your mixes at a quieter level, like quiet enough that you could hear someone call your name. Beyond a certain point, the louder you play back your audio the more the system (or even your ears) will start to compress the sound; if you're mixing that loud, then you're mixing to a level of compression that no one else will hear, and your mixes will fall apart at lower levels. The track levels could be off, the frequencies could be out of balance, etc. I'm not saying this should be your primary mixing level, but you should definitely try your mixes out at quieter levels if that isn't something you are used to.
I did say that in the original edit but I went a bit OTT haha A mixture of both is good for the right balance but I think I made sure to push the loud aspect of it as I know not many are doing that. Most new to mixing on headphones will simply mix at their own comfortable level and not consider mixing around 80-85db as its not natural to them. I've read big legendary mixers having "their loud" at 90-95db and 80-85db being their conversation level, like what they go down to as a moderate level. I think in modern times many not growing up in big studios have learned to listen quieter cause its more comfortable and they don't know any better. True that these older pro mixers still listened at quieter levels for translation and finding an overall balance but what they 100% do every time is mix loud at some stage and make decisions based on that level where in modern day times I would say people don't even know to crank the phones and the importance of checking that. Put it this way, you can mix 16 hours at 82db and 8 hours at 85db. It's not as loud as everybody thinks but if you've not been introduced to loud levels as a normal every day occurrence then you probably won't instinctively do it. Most big records are played in clubs and venues so ensuring your mixes sound on point at those levels is vital, as is consumer headphone levels but that level isn't an issue as far as I can see cause most new engineers are mixing at that level cause that's what they listen at. Even some of the comments saying Paul that's too loud.. I'm like fuuuuck you are in for a shock if you walk into a studio with big expensive monitors haha
I have sonarworks reference id4 And dt 990 pro 250 ohm Should i buy scarlet audio Interface or fiio k5 pro ess dac amp???? I use it for music Production
@@PaulThird thank you sir! I have another question. If I run my Apollo twin x line output 3 and 4 into a DAC/amp combo, will I run into an issue? From my understanding the Apollo twin already acts as DAC, however I’ve heard it’s not a very powerful DAC. Will I run into issues if I run a DAC/AMP combo out of my apollo twin x line out 3 and 4 ?
Yes cause you are running a DAC into a DAC but it wouldn't work anyway as the topping DAC amps only have digital inputs purposely to stop what you have suggested Unfortunately your twin x has no optical out so there's no way of connecting it to the topping. Your only option is to buy a headphone amp, not DAC amp if you still want to use the apollo
@@PaulThird ok cool, its the only way it makes sense for me as I don't need any in/outs as I am completely ITB. I just bought some Audeze LCD-x so I want to 'feed' it properly. Its a shame the Topping automatically comes with the amp as I have just bought a Rolls RA-53b 4-output headphone amp, Although the DX7 is still cheaper than the Babyface RME.
Hi Paul! You had a chance to A/B test in real time , the headphones straight into audio interface versus headphones into Headphones amp + DAC? I'm interested on how much in percentage can you evaluate the change between them ? Starting to mix on various locations a couple of years ago, I ran some A/B tests between different interfaces, headphones amps and DACs (mid priced vs more expensive) and there was not more than....I would say, 2-3 % difference. In the end I settled to Aplollo Twin + Beyerdynamic DT 880 - 32 ohm (no headphone amp or DAC needed) as the best option, price vs increase in quality.
I was that anal about it all, every time I recorded the headphones through my mic to ensure that each setup was at the same level for the AB's. Then I'd have to unplug and listen each time. I don't have a splitter so it was genuinely quick in and out. At the end of the day when it's level matched as close as you can get and you can physically pick out more details in one compared to the other it's an easy test. The seperation is the easiest thing to pick out through the dx7 pro+. Backing vocals especially. I listened to various mixes and I just had more detail. Better transient response, more low end detail where I could hear the notes slightly clearer with more punch from the kick. Going back to the id44 and l30mk2 felt narrower with less seperation and going back to just the id44 headphone amp on its own was even narrower with way less detail, way less transients and almost like a thin film over it masking the details. Hard to describe. Could be that I'm using planar headphones which aren't suited to a 50 ohm headphone amp and relatively known to be harder to drive than most dynamics. So when using the l30mk2 with it which is under 1ohm and more gain than I could ever want then it's obvious there is gonna be a difference due to less electrical damping and less deviations in frequency response, as well as less distortion. You can't drive a lot of planar headphones to loud levels using most audio interface headphone amps as they have such a low sensitivity, as do your really high impedance dynamic cans. So my headphones and headphone amp are the 2 main reasons why it's so easy to tell the difference. If I was to use your 32 ohm beyerdynamics would I still hear a difference in the id44. Yes cause its 50ohm going into a 32ohm but with a modern id14 mk2 22ohm maybe not as much of a difference. Your beyers are low ohm dynamics and way more sensitive than a planar and can be driven by near enough anything, that's why those beyers are super consumer based as they are so flexible. Would my sundaras suffer the same fate through the apollo twin x? gonna say yes as UA have purposely been very shady in revealing their headphone output impedance. Even in the manual which isn't a good sign for a planar user like me. For example my sundaras require 318mv for 94dbspl which is inbetween sennheiser hd650 & 600. So a near perfectly clean and superbly linear 1ohm powerful headphone amp is always gonna have a big difference with a low ohm power hungry planar headphone which also has faster transient response than a dynamic headphone as well as less distortion and more low end extension. That's why i hear a massive jump in transients and also hear the l30 l30mk2 as cleaner compared to the id44 headphone amp. In regards to the DAC difference we are then comparing toppings flagship converter to a consumer grade DAC chip. Comparing a DAC that measures better than any on audio science review. The best SINAD as well as a textbook perfect linear frequency response, and a choice of anti aliasing filters so you can avoid any ringing. Almost zero output impedance with extremely low noise and distortion. With the id44/l30 mk2 combo you are dealing with a signal being output from the line outs of the audient which in itself has a sound, then into a headphone amp, so not the purest of signals. The topping dx7 pro+ on its own was an easy win vs a budget audio interface & headphone amp combo. I didn't think the differences in converters and circuitry would play such a big role but I now get that's why people have paid so much for RME in the past when the conversion is that good. I'm gonna test it out in the new year with Ed as he's using UA in his set up and he's considering audeze headphones so we are gonna test the l30 mk2 with his twin and x8p as I don't think he'll want to invest in a seperate DAC.
@@PaulThird super cool and detailed story, thanks Paul :). In all of this business it's important that everyone feels okay with decisions when it comes to hear details when mixing. My journey was much simpler, I just decided that the difference is too small to justify the price increase, and also watching other professionals about how they're mixing/mastering on headphones.
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Whilst I thought I was keeping things purposely simple I'm getting comments regarding impedance. So to be clear. I'm not saying high impedance headphones can be easier driven than low impedance headphones. The discussion was originally about planars and dynamics but it was a bit too long winded so I cut it out. Heres what I took out the original edit as it was originally too long.
"ohm + sensitivity relation is important. Just because a headphone is low ohm does not mean you can drive it easily and vice versa. It's all about how much MW is required to drive a headphone to highest level."
I spoke about planar headphones especially because it's important to know that on the most part they require a lot more juice to power, for example, even though my sundaras are 30 ohm they require 314mv at 94dbspl which is inbetween HD 650 & 600 sennheisers!) and it also isn't reccomended to use a high impedance headphone amp with low impedance headphones as this can result in power issues and also lots of frequency related problems.
WHY DOES OUTPUT IMPEDANCE MATTER? It matters for at least three reasons:
The greater the output impedance the greater the voltage drop with lower impedance loads. This drop can be large to enough to prevent driving low impedance headphones to sufficiently loud levels. A real world example is the Behringer UCA202 with a 50 ohm output impedance. It struggles with some 16 - 32 ohm headphones.
Headphone impedance changes with frequency. If the output impedance is much above zero this means the voltage delivered to the headphones will also change with frequency. The greater the output impedance, the greater the frequency response deviations. Different headphones will interact in different, and typically unpredictable, ways with the source. Sometimes these variations can be large and plainly audible.
As output impedance increases electrical damping is reduced. The bass performance of the headphones, as designed by the manufacture, may be audibly compromised if there’s insufficient damping. The bass might become more “boomy” and less controlled. The transient response becomes worse and the deep bass performance is compromised (the headphones will roll off sooner at low frequencies). A few, such as those who like a very warm “tube like” sound, might enjoy this sort of under damped bass. But it’s almost always less accurate compared to using a low impedance source.
I just massively simplified that in my video. So just ensure you have a headphone amp with an impedance ideally of no more than 2 ohms and do your research.
Also for those looking for the scientific back up and research carried out by others, here is Amir's review of my topping dx7 pro+ on audio science review.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dx7-pro-review-dac-hp-amp.36978/
Honestly check out the rest of his reviews.. Valuable resource for the community. Don't go to sound on sound or any other paid advertising sites.. This is the right address!!
Also here are some links for some of the product's mentioned (yes they are affiliate links.. Best I could get as I can't get them to send any gear my way 🤣)
Presonus Revelator io24 audio interface
www.thomann.de/gb/presonus_revelator_io24.htm?partner_id=94442
Topping L30 mk2
apos.audio/products/topping-l30-ii-headphone-amp?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
Hifiman Sundara planar headphones
apos.audio/products/hifiman-sundara-planar-magnetic-headphones?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
Topping DX7 pro+
apos.audio/products/topping-dx7-pro-dac-amp-apos-certified?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
Audeze LCD-X
apos.audio/products/audeze-lcd-x-open-back-headphone?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
Does the TOPPING DX7 Pro+ have ASIO drivers?
It installed its own drivers on windows as soon as I plugged it in. Outside the daw I just select it in the windows speaker selection, In the daw I use the ASIO driver I had installed already
I’ve never heard of this website before, thanks for sharing!
It's DAC so it's not an issue
Thanks Paul - you keep costing me money. But I now have an L30 and an E30 and you are so right - what a difference in clarity!
I'm still confused on the 80dB SPL listening level and how to measure that? In another video you mentioned 'gain staging' your monitoring path but I'm not sure how to do this.
Currently I have the E30 set to 0dB output, L30 output gain at 0dB and driving Sennheiser HD650s so that they're loud but not threshold of pain. I'm also using iRealphones for crosstalk and (I assume) Harman curve with HD-650 model loaded.
Am I missing anything?
Another question - if my DAW session is 48k/24bit is there any point in setting the E30 to higher resolution?
Appreciating your candid content.
Thanks, Paul. As a God Mode sound designer and producer I don't need to mix and master my perfect tracks. Mage! Mage, wake up! You're dreaming again. 😄
We can all dream 🤣
Regarding listening levels… In the very early part of balancing a mix, like balancing the kick/bass etc., i do turn down to where you can barely hear it. At that level, things completely disappear, and just above that level, you can hear clearly how main elements are sitting with one another. It’s super helpful. Once i have very basic balance, then it’s time to turn it up to proper level. Every once in a while checking loud and soft. I find i get the best results keeping at a good level, but occasionally turning wayyy down and up a little, briefly. And then, take breaks! Let your ears and brain reset.
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I do a combo of mixing on headphones and mixing on speakers. I'm trying to lean more into headphones as my room is problematic to say the least and following watching this video I realise that I was listening too low on cans. I have a level that I like to mix at on monitors and I thought that if I was mixing on headphones then I should have them "feel" as loud as monitors. But after watching this I cranked my headphones when I was working and that alone was a game changer. I know "we perceive louder as better" but it's not that, the louder volume made the problems in the mix more apparent, masking etc. To Paul's line about "you can't mix what you can't hear" because of distortion etc from your crappy headphone amp or DAC "you also can't mix what you can't hear if you've got your cans down too low to hear where the problems are."
Thanks very much Paul, I've a track to car test later after working on it at a higher level over the weekend and I'm hopeful that it's closer to being done than it's ever been.
also paul, if I have your attention. I was kicking the tyres on the topping headphone amp you recommended and they were also trying to sell me on their E 30 II DAC, any opinions on that unit? I'd be hopeful that it'd work as well as the DAC on the DX7 pro as I've no need for pres and TBH I wouldn't be willing to make that kind of investment at this stage.
My first mix listening loud was a big improvement. Explains a lot why I was adding in so much low end before. Pushing yourself to get as close to the flattest Fletcher munson curve is a big thing for mixing. I'm still trying to get my head round the fact that our ears are essentially a 2500 band multiband compressor.. Crazy 🤯
@@PaulThird I think that's a big part of it. This particular song I'm trying to pitch the tonal balance in between 2 references. And I kept struggling to figure out why it sounded so bad when I bounced it out to try it elsewhere despite being happy with it in my room. When I turned the volume up I quickly realised that I'd actually mixed it to be darker than the darker of the 2 tracks I was trying to get in between
Is your rme better then a baby face pro? Why didn’t you just get a baby face?
I don't own an RME. I was thinking about an RME
I have a RME Babyface Pro FS
I was curious if i needed a headphone amp , as i use headphones to mix
If i do, or if you recommend doing so, will you please recommend something
I trust your opinion after binging almost half your videos so far lmfao
Thank You for your knowledge
What are your thoughts about the hifiman he400se?
Very good headphone for the price but doesn't exceed in anything. You aren't gonna get close up front detail of the ananda nano or soundstage of the HE1000SE, or even the average that's the sundara but it's gonna give you a £100 headphone that is clean enough to take eq and sound better than most dynamics double or triple it's price
I’m not sure how to measure 85dbspl on a pair of headphones… but if i set my speakers at 85db with a spl meter. And then try to match the level on my headphones, my brain is melting. Even on speakers, 85db is brain meltingly loud. I always try to change levels all the time. I have a stream deck hooked up to my rme ufx ii and have different snapshots set at different levels. 0, -6 and -25 db. I do most of my mixing at -6. That is roughly 75dbspl. Snapshots for different eq curves too. One ”hifi bad” with a huge shelf boost starting at 2k and nothing below 80hz. And one that sounds like my car. You really should get yourself a rme card. It improved my workflow many times the money i spent buying it. And it sounds great too. ;)
Feels loud to me as well but I've got used to it now. After reading mixing engineers handbook I knew the 80-85db thing was actually true.
I used a db app on my phone and just stuck the microphone in the cups haha not ideal but it's a ball park.
I then bought an SPL meter to make sure and the phone mic was off by 3-5 db which isn't massive but enough to justify the £30 for the meter
It gets me everytime. Turn the mix up loud, it falls apart. Bane of my life right now
It was an adjustment I had to get used to. I mixed very quiet before
Just ordered Schiit Magni+ to drive my HD600... I hope it's as good as the reviews say
Amazing content. Although I love using my Audient id44 for tracking, I needed a set of headphones that work well for mixing., so, I purchased the Neumann NDH 30. Now I need a headphone amp that is worthy for theNDH30. I'm guessing the Topping will be a decent choice. What is the suggested method for integrating the Topping to my DAW (Reaper)? Cheers.
Depends if it's a topping DAC or amp
@@PaulThird Well, I think you sold me on the Topping DX7 Pro+. I'm not exactly sure how to connect it to the id44... I'm guessing the preferred connection should be the id44 optical out to the Topping DX7 Pro+ optical in. Also considering your suggestion for the Goodhertz can opener for crosstalk. Any additional suggestions? cheers.
Optical out of id44 (set that specific optical out in ID software as Spdif) you will need to set your daw to output to that corresponding adat
Nice tips!, my mixes got way better when I started to use headphones.. but as always.. using references all the time... and I think its very important to know the frequencies your headphone pulls down.. or pump up... it can helps us to do less mistakes...
Yup. Learning your headphones takes a while
80 dB is quite loud for your ears, for some time of exposure.....85 dB start to do damage your ears clearly, and fast ;)
Nah not really. You can mix 16 hours at 80db spl. 8 hours straight at 85db spl. Theres been enough scientific tests done to show that.
If that's loud you should go into some studios haha there are some pros that listen as loud as 90-95db and 80-85db is their conversation level 😅
Reading mixing engineers handbook opened my eyes quite a bit.
In the end its all about taking regular breaks and not exposing your ears for long listening at any level. Your perception and judgement can lost pretty quick so if you are pacing yourself then 80-85db will be a breeze.
The human ear is a very fascinating part of the human body and protects itself more than you think. Theres a great AES lecture all about it
ok Paul, that s good to know. Thanks for your clarification. Anyway, I tend not to go louder than 80dBs, even with guitar amps . Loved the video man, as usual. Keep it up, thank you ;)❤
paul 3rd & public profanity now dang times r changing.
& rip ducks
Came back to say I just upgraded to RME ADI-2 with Audeze LCD-X and, well, after a week or so adjusting, I am extremely grateful for your advice, and effectively showing me where my weak link in the chain is.
If you have a consumer interface with spdif or optical out, do yourself a favour, you will never look back.
I’ve had enough of hearing distortion in my DT770 80ohms, despite the Zoom Livetrack mixer headphone out being rated 100ohms (no problems at all through my A&H mixer which I use for live). I just bought a Topping L50 to counter this and improve SQ. Glad to see it wasn’t overkill. I bought first, then done my research so good to see we’re on the same page!
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Paul, when you say 80-85 dB, do you mean dBA, or dBC? I think both of those are too loud to recommend, but dBC might be more passable. However, that's still loud levels. You'd wear your ears out if that was your normal levels. Like, you'd get hearing damage over time. I don't like that you say you need to mix at that level. The suggestion should rather be "remember to check your mix at higher listening levels, too", because that's a totally fair argument. Poor mixes do fall apart at higher volume levels, and it's important to keep track of, but I don't think we should argue to always have that listening level.
Read mixing engineering books and you'll read clear as day that they are listening around 80-85db.. The odd even louder.
You can mix up to 8 hours at those levels and tbh you shouldn't be mixing more than 8 hours anyway as your ears will be shot by then.
80db is busy traffic. Science is just science. There's a reason why these guys mix at these levels. I asked the pro's I know and they all said 80-85db.
In terms of weighted I measure dbC as that's what I was told but check that out
www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm
Solid information, collected and averaged
l have a SSL2 interface, what headphones would you recommend to mix with that?
so far i have beyerdynamic dt 770’s 80 ohms
Senheisser HD 280 Pros
Audio Technicas M40x
I'd reccomend the ones that sound the best to you. The pair that translate into better mixes on more playback systems. . Nothing wrong with having other headphones for referencing though
@@PaulThird Thanks! I was asking because i kept seeing videos that low impedance headphones can mess with the interface and cause a distortion if you raise it up or something? Idk the Ohms for the SSL2 so i was wondering which headphones were the best for it.
Being honest, the topping l30 mk2 is like £140 and measures better than any headphone amp out there as far as I'm aware. Line outs of ssl into RCA in of topping, plug ANY headphone into it.. Job done, thank me later 👍
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/
Hello, the SSL 2 can handle 80 ohms for sure. Anything past 250 Ohms is where you'd really need to switch interface. Don't you worry about that. The beyerdynamic dt 770s and 880s are a reference for a reason. Many universities teach with them for a reason - it's a classic. I think your interface matches your headphones.
If one day, you decide to go up in budget, I recommend to skip the mid-tier of 400 Buck-Interfaces and go straight for something >800. Personally I am a RME-boy, so I'd recommend the Fireface for studio and the Babyface for travel or even studio (depending on your budget and what you do). When it comes to choosing headphones you really need to test them. Heads and ears are very different and this plays a bigger role with headphones than with speakers - and even speakers are very much a taste-thing (I like iLouds and Neumanns as speakers, I also got a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro and Focal Spirit One Studio Classic (not sold anymore) headphones).
I suggest not to worry too much about having the "perfect" headphones for now - unless you're spending ~100 Bucks a month on plugins. In that case don't buy plugins for 8 months and get yourself a top-tier interface first and a top-tier pair of headphones 5-12 months later. Way better to invest in hardware (computer, interface, mic, headphones, speakers, room-treatment and room-optimizers (trinnov). The things I want to buy now, are the things I'd already own, if I hadn't spent the money on plugins that I never use.
Now I've written a lot more than you asked for, but that's how I am somtimes, excuse me. So what headphones to use with your SSL2 interface? Yours are great for that! If you want to upgrade, upgrade the whole shabang. And don't buy plugins. The free kilohearts, melda and ableton/pro tools stock plugins are great and I use them all the time. I also use the fancy plugin here and there.. but at this point I'm pretty sure I do it mainly because I paid for them. I'd tell you which ones, but then you'd maybe go ahead and buy them instead of hardware and my whole novel here would have been for nothing - haha.
Hey Paul! Just found out your channel and already subscribed. Great content!
I am wondering if you are still using the L30 II with the DX7, or is the hp amp on the DX7 the same as the L30 or better?
Cheers!
I just use the dx7 pro+. L30ii is being used in the atmos room for binaural
And yes i read that online
Me: 👁️👄👁️
Most audio interface headphone outputs are garbage, but the ones on RME are the best I've ever heard, when I jumped to an RME UFX years back, it finally retired my Earmax Valve headphone amp I was so impressed by it.
RME are great 🤓
What your thoughts on Topping D90 + A90 stack with balanced XLR cables, im planning on getting lcd x I’m a music producer
Just get dx7 pro+. Best conversion and headphone amp wise all the power you will ever need. No need to stack
I have a Clarett+ 2Pre and a set of Neumann NDH-30 phones. Upgrading from Scarlett 2i2.
Do I really need a headphone amp as well? Which would blow the Clarett away?
If you are mixing predominantly on the NDH-30 I'd say yes
Hey man i am mixing on headphones and plan to do so for the next few years at least. I agree with you on everything but I dont want to have different devices for each component in the chain, something compact is what I look for. Do you think RME Fireface latest version covers everything perfectly, AD/DA, headphone amp?
Yeah. Can't go wrong with a top line RME for an all round interface. Very good investment
Im use a grace m900. Its a $700 DAC. Its 0 ohm output, 4 different DAC filters. You are correct,. Its night and day.
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Hey Paul, I hope you get to see this, please Advice me, I mix on headphones 80% of the time. I've got Audioent ID24, and I've got Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro 250ohms and Sennheiser HD650. What RME product should I get for better monitoring both on headphones and my Monitors (Adam Audio A7X). Thanks
ADI 2 PRO FS
@@PaulThird thank you very much!!!
I have a 2 day old baby chicken 🐔 whose mother got taken by a fox all 7 siblings also died. The only way I calmed it down was to put pair of headphones next to it with your soothing voice from this video on repeat. It fell asleep and rested for a couple of hours. BTW the chic didn't care that it was coming out of a cheap DA.
My voice doesn't need an expensive DAC 😜😜 hahaha
@@PaulThird 😪Sadly...the baby chic died...if only I invested in a high-end DA, I could be having scrambled eggs.
What headphones were they?
@@housebrigade Sennheiser HD280.
@@PaulThird I finally got an expensive DAC and things are so clear. I finally heard your voice clearly enough that now I can confidently rule out that you speak in an Australian accent.
How is the Pro + compared to the Pro?? What’s the difference ?
When released in September dx7 pro+ had the best SINAD (THD+N) of any DAC measured on audio science review. We are splitting hairs though cause the dx7 pro DAC measures -119db THD+N which means it has 15db less noise and distortion than the DAC of an audient id44. -123db THD+N of dx7 pro+ is still in reality a 4db improvement of a measurement that was already more than anybody would need from a DAC.
However, the Dx7 pro Headphone amp has an output impedance of 6 ohm which can affect linearity in headphones under 60 ohm. Not advisable for a lot of planars (audeze, hifiman etc). Dx7 pro+ has virtually a zero headphone output impedance which is awesome.
The dx7 pro+ is basically the best that topping can offer using the best converter chips and their own circuitry. Refined everything and corrected every issue in dx7 pro. Perfect linearity. No ESS IMD hump, jitter is that low its practically unmeasurable.
In Amir's own words. A guy that's properly tested practically every high grade DAC and amp on the market.
"impeccable performance for a DAC"
The pro+ headohone amp has the same signal to noise ratio as the RME ADI 2, incredibly low noise and distortion and it doesn't clip at 32 & 300 ohm so if you hear any distortion it's the headphone, not the amp.
The dx7 pro+ is basically end game for a DAC/AMP.
@@PaulThird you are the man! Thank you for taking the time to respond and clearly explain all of this!! I was extremely happy with my pro until I read this 🤣🤣 I still am but every little bit helps! Cheers!
Ive been mixing thru headphones using the Audioquest Dragonfly. For years its been my go-to DAC and headphone amp. The difference of that DAC/amp to other audio interface is literally NIGHT & DAY. It was a good investment for me instead of buying budget(to mid-tier) audio interfaces. Accurate listening in headphones is very crucial. Cheers! 🙂🙂
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Hi Jess. I'm looking at getting a headphone amp and noticed the Audioquest Dragonfly have the bonus of being very small! Do you recommend a particular model? Also, does the fact that they are USB increase the CPU usage? (as opposed to thunderbolt/ USB-C)
@@evanmcgregor3758 HI! Im using Dragonfly Black 1.5. to my knowledge it doesn't consume any CPU usage. its a plug-and-play USB. No drivers needed. Cheers! 😄
I love this guy!😂
Where is the 85dbs mark on the headphones?
Use a db app on your phone and it'll get you the ballpark. I bought an SPL meter just to make sure
You may have convinced me to get a headphone amp, i am currently using planar mixing headphones plugged into the focusrite 2i2. I thought because it can get loud enough for me that it was good enough, but i'm going to try the Topping L30 mk2 and i'm interested to see the difference that will make for the clarity.
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Wonder if the headphones amp made a difference, please share.
@@g.o.9513 I bought the topping l30ii and It seemingly makes no difference unless you're coming from something truly crap, it turns out my focusrite 2i2 was indeed good enough to power my planars and i can't tell any obvious differences between the two when volume matched.
That's really surprising cause I've had a lot of people comment and DM to thank me for reccomending the L30ii and quite a few had 2i2's and offer focusrites
If you can't hear it then you hear it but if you still have L30ii could you do me a favour and try the test I do when comparing headphone amps. This also applies to anybody else reading this.
FYI Gain needed depends on the sensitivity of the headphone. My sundaras had a low sensitivity but not all planars do. A lot do need a lot of gain but depends
Also, Before you do this ensure you are listening around 80-85db spl
1. Listen to hella good by no doubt and listen particularly to the snare. There should be an audible transient difference as the topping measures a very quick transient response which is where many hp amps struggle. You'll gear a difference in the snap of the transient.
2. Listen to the chorus synth in hella good and compare the distortion of it as I normally find this as a good distortion test as that synth can lose clarity very quickly on lower quality systems (this is probably more of a DAC thing but I recall hearing it compared to the audient hp amp)
3. Listen to the acoustics and vocal clarity of stay by post malone. Normally I find the vocal is a little more intelligible and guitar a little more detailed due to the transients and ultra low distrortion.
4. For low end listen to typhoon by royal blood. This should be a good low end distortion and transient test. Like the no doubt track listen to the transient response and if the low end of the kick is slightly cleaner
If after all that there is no difference to your ears, then it doesn't really matter what you use or buy headphone amp wise. And that's not me being a dick, there's just no point expirimenting further with hp amps as the topping measures better than nearly all hp amps out there
As a final note though, remember that the DAC will always bottle neck the headphone amp. So if you can't hear a difference in a headphone amp then try comparing interface to a good dac amp or dac amp combo
@@PaulThird I did keep the topping as i got a great deal on it and it's good to have just in case i ever get high impedance headphones. And I just tried these tests, i still can't really hear an obvious difference between my 2i2's headphone out and the topping. To give more info, my headphones i'm using are the avantone planars which are 32 ohms and have a sensitivity of 104 dB/1mW, which i think it quite easy to drive? I'm not sure, but also i tend to listen to my music and mix at quieter volumes to prevent ear fatigue over long sessions. It is possible that i might just not be trained to listen out for transients, but i personally can't tell an obvious difference between the two, at least with these headphones.
Are you using sundara with this? How was it? I'm currently using hifiman sundara with focusrite solo, the power is just too low.
Sundaras have a lower sensitivity so need more juice in order to drive them. Thus why a headphone amp like the L30ii is perfect for all headphones. Even Dan Clark stealth
Can audio interface run in parallel with DAC+amp? I just need to use audio interface for recording guitar and getting audio to speakers
In most you can run the amp straight from the interface line outs (if you are not using monitors or have 2 sets of line outs) but not a DAC/AMP unless both your interface and DAC/AMP allows optical or coaxial spdif connection.
The reason you need an spdif connection is because the interface always has to be the master so the DAC/AMP has to run as a slave and recieve digital audio from the interface.
OR you simply use the interface in the daw when recording and switch to the DAC/AMP for mixing
Paul Third spendin money on gear,, whats goin on my dude... IS THAT REALLY YOU!!!???? 😂🤟
It's really me!!!! Haha 🤣
Great video, but very confusing to me because of your claims about the new amplifier.
I'm currently struggling to understand the differences between amplifiers, and since you already have the same interface as I do (Audient), this gets even more confusing to me, because it makes no sense to me that another amplifier just changes the sound of the headphones.
Many people told me that amps have one purpose, to give enough current or power to the headphones, while keeping a flat frequency response. The Audient from what I've read, does that very well.
The only thing I know about the interface that might back up your claims is that the Audient headphone output impedance is 22 ohms, so it might color low impedance headphones and might make them sound, tonality wise, worse.
But having better details, crisper transients and better imaging? it makes no sense to me, it might be that topping colors the sound differently, and makes you think that the headphones just sounds better.
But at the end of day you're using the same headphones, how can it really sound any different?
So now I just want to explain my situation: Audient iD4 mk 1, powering DT 770, DT 1990 and Kali LP6 (which you also have) all above 80 ohms
To give you an example of how I hear things, my inbuilt PC jack sounds exactly the same to my cheap dongle and to the Audient iD4, the only difference is power, and maybe maybe a tiny bit of distortion with my PC connection.
I know sound is subjective, which is why I'm really curious what you think about all of this, maybe I'm getting it all wrong and interfaces compromise on headphone jacks, maybe topping is just insane, or maybe it's just a problem with Audient.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/
There is a lot science involved and various factors that can affect the sound of headphones.
The topping is the opposite of coloured. It's as clean and transparent as any headphone amp on the market.
You essentially want a headphone amp to have an output impedance of no more than 1-2ohm (Julian Krause says the same). This is because of the way that low ohm dynamic headphones & low ohm IEM's are affected with higher impedance headphone amps. This can cause dampening which affects the frequency response as well as added distortion.
A big problem with interface headphone amps is power, and not just high power, high power with low distortion.
When you get into the realms of planar magnet headphones and high impedance headphones like Sennheiser HD600, you require an amp that can drive the headphones adequately to the required levels due to many of them having low sensitivity. That's why high power with low distortion is very important. Even IEM's can get pretty noisy through low quality headphone amps.
As for transient response the amplifier has to react to transients of the source to be able to amplify them. It's not a power supply, it's an amplifier.
Transient response measures how quickly an audio system can respond to changes in sound level. Specifically, it refers to the system's ability to accurately reproduce transients, which are the sudden changes in sound level that occur at the start of a waveform.
So if the headphone amp isnt quick enough to react to the initial transient of the waveform then it will result in a softer sound in its amplification. If it's quick enough to react to the analog signal then it should be able to effectively amplify the whole transient.
We are dealing with analog sound waves passing through circuitry and if you think of the headphone amp as your bottleneck then it's going to theoretically have an affect on the purity of the signal in the same way you pass a guitar signal through a DI box or a 1073.. its an amplifier at the end of the day and the quality of that circuitry & signal path has a limiting affect of the purity of the original signal, how pure the signal comes out the other end is defined by the signal path of the amplifier.
Budget Interfaces normally cant afford or have the space to include a high quality signal path for every headphone. Universal audio told me that themselves. It's a compromise, where a well built headphone amp has no compromise, it's built only to amplify the signal going into a headphone. Its price, size and circuit path reflect that
Cool! I just got the Slate VSX after years of thinking about it.. they are really next level from my earlier setup with Sonarsworks and AKG K550mkII.. next in your setup 😎?
I got somebody to contact them for me but they weren't interested haha 😢
@@PaulThird Too bad!!
I have a Presonus 1824c with BeyerDT99's - I would love to upgrade soon but for now, well you tell me, if you feel like checking out my new track, do I need to?
I wouldn't be using 1824c for mixing on headphones. One of the highest THD+N measurements I've seen and it's working impedance range is a minimum of 32 ohms which cancels out most audeze headphones if you choose to upgrade in the future. Doesn't state headphone output impedance but the fact its working range of 32 and above would tell me that it has a high output impedance so for your beyers yeah it'll be fine but you upgrade to planars or low impedance cans in the future.. Not advisable.
At that price, presonus has to cut some corners, it's inevitable offering 8 ins and outs for £360, so you get what you pay for.
Id be upgrading the headphone amp at least. Personally I'd advise a dac/amp. You can link it to your 1824c via the spdif out if the DAC/amp has coaxial input.
Dunno if the 1824c optical out does spdif or adat only but if it does optical spidf out and the DAC amp has an optical port you can link it that way as well so you have a pure digital signal being fed to it.
Alternatively you can just use your presonus for recording and your dac/amp for mixing. Either way I'd be advising an upgrade as you can't mix what you can't hear but I'll leave that decision up to you
@@PaulThird Major thanks is due! I am thinking to go RME, just need to save for a bit, and wait for a good time to make the purchase!
I may just upgrade the 1824c completely as the thought of outboarding without "the good converters" keeps me up at night.
Everytime I watch your videos I want to correct you! I say to myself "it's Paul THE Third!!" then I remember its your name and I'm being a d*ck!! 😂
I still remember I was bored once at school and was dared to set the fire extinguisher out the window, which I did cause I didnt even want to be in school
I left like 10 minutes later and f*cked off home early.
A teacher noticed foam spray raining down and came up and somebody said it was me.
Her genuine reply (in a northern Irish accent)
"Paul Third???.. Is that even his real name!?.. Your having me on."
Walked out and nothing was ever said as the teacher thought they were having her on 🤣🤣
Great vid Paul! How do you have the Topping DX7 Pro+ setup in Studio One?
Do you have that setup as the main driver in the settings or are you using the revelators drivers and somehow connecting to the DX7 Pro+? And are you then going out of the DX7 Pro+ into the L30 m2?
Sorry for the confusion but I was looking at the RME too and seeing you do this... I've got the duck thing going on at the moment too until big grandma duck drops the golden egg ;)
And do you have the option to hook up monitors if you wanted to or are all your outputs taken up?
I use ASIO in studio one and the dx7 driver outside of the daw
@@PaulThird thank you
Jaycen Joshua plug ✅
Does this only apply to planer magnetic headphones?
No
Hmm. worth a thought, there. I've got a mobile recording rig with two audient ASP880's going into an iD44 - PayPal and other credit facilities - been there, too. Well, at home, I use an Audient iD22. I mostly mix, or record me, so I don't need the 'rig', but what I have noticed is the single headphone out on the iD22 is considerably, louder, punchier and fuller than the either of the Headphone outs on the iD44. Same headphones; Audio Technica ath M50. But, I can't use the iD22 for the rig, because it's only got one light pipe. And the wee Mackie 4-way headphone amps I used recently didn't really help me as much as I thought they would. Need to do some research. Good channel, Paul. Love your cheeky-chappie honesty
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Hi Pual im a complete rookie can u plz tell how much is 80-85db spl in db ?
80db spl haha.. That's what it is. You need an SPL meter to measure inside your cups as a rough guide
haha - spends 700 quid on a headphone amp. Makes a video reinforcing how important headphone amps are. ;) - by the way, I have an ur816c which has 'ok' specs. Still way better than anything used to make most of the highest regarded recordings ever - also, used to have an RME fireface. It was very very good and only got rid of it because firewire died a death.
You know me.. I make videos on what takes my focus that particular week haha
And I paid £700 for a dac AND headphone amp combo .. Least get it right! 😜 Haha My topping l30 mk2 which is just a headphone amp was only £140.. Bargain!!
@@PaulThird ahhh I stand corrected :D
Hi Paul, i’ve got an sennheiser hd650. Its 300 ohms…and its connected to the scarlett 2i2 interface…do i still need an headphone amp to achieve more out of my headphones?
Should be fine frequency response wise as it 1 ohm hp output impedance. Transients wise you'll probably hear a difference with the L30ii though. I can't say for sure cause I've never tried a focusrite but transient response is awesome on the topping
Ciao, I read about Your gear but I don't see anything about near (or mid or fa) field monitor . And about Your Rooms size ?
I don't use monitors
you can not compare the thd of an amp to a dac.... yep RME is as good as it gets for interfaces but the converters are either AKM or ESS anyways so thats not part of it.... there is more to the sound quality then just the converters and additionally RME is loved for their unbeatable drivers and low latency performance
I never said you could. I discussed about using a headphone amp instead of the one in your interface and then talked about the importance of a top grade dac
mexing in hedfoons
Maybe the mex but not the foons haha I definitely pronounce my "ohhhhnwwwn's" haha
@@PaulThird haha! it's cool of you to acknowledge, 🫶
How can I know if my headphones or speakers are 85DB from where I’m sitting or the size of
My headphones/ears ?
Use a good db app on your phone, put the phone mic in between the cups and measure. Not fool proof but gets you ball park. Use a few phones and different apps though to make sure you are getting semi consistent results
I bought an SPL meter just to make sure
I recommend not using PayPal! If you criticize them, they will fine you and take the money from your credit card!
Well i certainly won't criticise them then haha
Please explain how you can measure 85db listening level on a headphone?
ruclips.net/user/shorts4i1LelGJhK4?feature=share
@@PaulThird Thank you I didn't think of that!
Hi Paul, thank you for your immense help and support sharing your experience and what you honestly know to work or do not, in this industry sea of information, especially with the increasing consumerism oriented marketing 😅.
Thank you for so neatly listing all equipment you use or recommend for us newbies. 😂 Would you be so kind as the nice lad you are, and walk us through your signal flow chain in your studio?
Excuse my ignorant nature, alike yourself I was very laid back and lazy at uni doing my Music Tech "Specialist" degree in UWL 🙏😅 - is it from your Interface to the your DAC convertor/Headphones Amp (by the way - is the Topping, both DAC & headphone amp too😮?) to then arrive to your monitors? Or are you also going through the Presonus io24, or was that just a recommendation? 😅
Apologies for the confusion and long winded numerous questions - trying to wrap my head around the whole chain as I'm with UAD, and don't think the DAC nor the headphone amp are transient enough for me to get the most appropriate translation of a sonic, in the current gear setting I've dipped myself in. 🤭
Appreciate you and your work ever so much Mr. Third! Please don't let anything stop you from being the change in the world you'd like to see - cause from where I look at it, you're already making a significant change of the scene. 🤗😇
P. S - as I trully respect your time and suspect you being incredibly busy with all that humongous output of yours - any hopes if not now, somewhere in the near future to have you as my tracking /mixing / mastering mentor? 😅
Much love and respect from a Bulgarian fan in London 🤩
My current chain is topping dx7 pro+ DAC amp receiving the daw audio from apollo X6 via Spdif.
The audient SP8 in the live room is connected to the X6 via 10m ADAT. The topping l30ii is connected to 2 line outs of the SP8 for headphone use in the live room.
So basically the X6 is the main hub with the rest being fed digitally over ADAT & spdif
@@PaulThird you're a legend for taking the time to respond so quickly & promptly 🙏 thank you so much! Any prospects for mentorships with you as a mixing accolate? 🤩
I've agreed to do it with somebody already so don't know how much time I would have but feel free to Email me on Paulthird.taysound@gmail.com and we could discuss pricing and stuff if that's something you really want.
Does anyone know how to measure how loud you headphones are playing. I’ve been trying to figure out how i even know what 80-85 sounds like.
Most I know use dB apps on their phone. Place the phone mic (ensure a case is off) inbetween the cups and measure Not exact but gets you ball park
@@PaulThird That probably doesn't give you anywhere near an accurate sound level. I read somewhere that when tested an iPhone mic was misreporting the environment by 10dB, and given that sound pressures are logarithmic that result is less than useless.
That's why you use multiple phones and a few different apps to cross reference. If your really anal about it I suppose you could buy an SPL meter from amazon and do it that way 🤷♂️
@@PaulThird I'm actually looking at those right now!
One man's anal is another man's science!
lol
@@periurban bought an SPL meter and my phone was off by 3-5db. Probs enough to justify the £30 for the meter
Paypal credit lol! I love it. I have the RME Babyface Pro FS - similar tech. However you know the most important thing. The Song! You can only go so far. I agree though, no more fucking plugins!
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I own an Audient ID14 mkii presently was thinking of upgrading to an ID44 mkii. But recently I have been thinking of getting an interface with reference grade AD/DA converter so I can mix well. Do you think a Prism Lyra 2 is best for that or what 2 channel DA/AD converter can you recommend
Nah I'd say go for an RME ucx ii over the prism. Half the price and can't see any reason why prism would give you better results
I mix/master on headphones so does the audio interface matter for audio mix & master..? If yes, how much does it improve the sound quality?
Yup. The quality of the DAC and HP amp bottleneck the quality of the signal being transmitted to the headphones.
Which audio interface is currently the best..?@@PaulThird
Depends on your budget and the features you need as a whole
Chibai Paul, The Night vs Day part gives me anxiety and reason to consider good DAC 🤦 ..BTW, Do you know any good song/ mix reference track that is clean sounding, flat and boring but good balance that you can tweak with EQ for taste and use that EQ curve on while monitoring during mixing, so that it compensates our taste / style of how we treat the Freq/Timbre/Dynamics in our mixes... 🤔
I just pick one mixer I like and reference a track he's done that is similar to the track I'm mixing
*** Anyone know where I can read reviews of the HIFIMAN Ananda Nano by * musicians/mix engineers * ? ..every time I Google its comes up with audiophiliacs reviews and "is it good for gaming" reviews .Not exact;y confidence building as much as I appreciate Paul's endorsement.. I'm mixing not mastering-primarily headphones TX ***
Cause its just out. Think it's only been out like over a month. It's not just me thats using nano. I asked hifiman after emrahs strong reccomendation of ananda v3. Emrah mixes with nanos now
Pretty sure he's mixed a Turkish number 1 with them already haha
@@PaulThird Thank-you my Scottish bros! Yes I listened to the whole podcast, I just wont more of an overview before I drop 1000 Canadian beavers!$. I'm sure these are amazing!
BTW looking at the Topping! headphone amp but my RME interface has alot of pretty good head room so not sure. (corrected*)
My Scarlett 2i2 headphone out has
That's what you are looking for
One mote question Mr. Third. I god a lake people headphone Amp. Like it a lot built like a tank but I get a kinda loud pop when I turn it on with the phones plugged in. You have that experience on your both your units? 😊
Couldn't say, my setup turns on all at the same time. As soon as I switch on the computer everything powers up so I never have my headphones on when the amp switches on
I have Audeze LCD-x 2021 which are very easy to drive and i powered them with focusrite scarelet 18i8 2nd gen. From my listening experience it sounds very good. I have custom eq curve when i am listening on them as well as i'm mixing. I do not know am i missing something because not having dac, amp or better interface in terms of sound. Loudness is not a problem. Do you think is it worth to invest more into these setup? Thanks
Believe it or not focusrite headphone amps are one of the exceptions to the rule. 18i8 has a headphone impedance of 1ohm which you'll struggle to find on other interfaces. You can run any headphone on that and tonally not worry about the sound where your lcdx 2021 really wouldn't be reccomended on most other interfaces cause they have a much higher headphone output impedance
Dunno how much power it has for hungry planars and high impedance cans though.
The DAC is a very big factor. I know cause I've got arguably the best external headphone amp and I can hear differences in DAC whether it be audient, universal audio, presonus. The dx7 pro+ is something I've never heard elsewhere. Maybe it's the ESS sabre chip combined with toppings own dac circuitry.. Not entirely sure but a good DAC can do wonders to what you hear. Interface to interface.. Its subtle until you get into RME universal audio etc
Hi @PaulThird Do You know AudioGD DAC and amplifiers?
Nope
@@PaulThird Check them if You Can, Amazing. Giancarlo from AA said me that they are the best. I don't know if they are the best but for sure they are Amazing
Ladies and gentleman, I’ve just subscribed to this channel. My life will never be the same.
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hello, I have bought the beyerdynamics dt770 pro with 250 ohm. I have spent the whole day looking for interfaces that can run 250ohm easily and I wanna ask if the topping L30 II can handle it. Im beginner so I don't have the knowledge so Im asking the pro here.
L30ii can drive any headphone
@@PaulThird Hey, thanks for answering. I am little confused after watching some reviews about it and looking your video again. Is the L30 II alone enough or do I need to put the E30 II on top of it to make it work and why do you have the L30 II connected to an interface, isn't the L30 II a interface by itself ?
My only goal right now is to use my headphones and to mix with them and people told me that I need to get an amplifier/interface and recommended me to buy a focusrite 3rd gen, but it can't run 250 ohm afterr watching some reviews. I am really confused and would appreciate your help
Headphone amp isnt a digital to analog converter. It's an amplifier. It amplifies an analog signal.
An interface is a DAC. That's why the L30ii needs connected to the interfaces line outs as that's where it recieves the analog signal.
You can get a DAC amp like my dx7 pro+ or combine the L30ii with a seperate dac, or just connect it to your interface
Hi Paul, enjoying your channel. As a fellow Scots tight a*** I tried for ages to squeeze good results out if cheap gear (with some success) but during the pandemic when I stepped up my home recording I got increasingly frustrated with how my mixes transferred outside of my studio. After trying a more modern interface with a good reputation for DA conversion (which wasn’t cheap) but didn’t get on with my computer. I ended doing the same as you and (using finance) I upgraded to the RME Fireface UCXII interface you pictured plus some Adam monitors. It was an expensive outlay but the difference in terms of what I can hear in my mixes and the transparency of the conversion is night and day. My conclusion is that with patience and a lot of referencing and moving your mix round different audio systems you can definitely get good results but it is so much easier and efficient to be able to hear issues straight away as you can with better gear. Keep up the good content, much appreciated!
My experience is the same. I did my first mix this week listening at 80-85db with the dx7 pro+ using the least amount of plugins I've ever used and my mastering engineers told me that the mix I produced was such a big improvement, even from the mix I made fixing my tilt
Paul stop giving people secrets that help their mixes sound as good as mine... dog gon it...
Haha 😅😅😅
So do you think the Topping DX7 Pro+ is on a level with RME for sound quality?
Measurements say so but I can't comment as I've not got an RME to compare but is highly rated by Amir who uses an RME if I'm correct
Closed back headphones ok?
Depends which kind
Hi Paul, just out of interest, are you using correction software on your headphones? Whats your view on it?
I use realphones correction which is based more on the harman curve
did you bay yours ar Apos USA? how long was the shipping?
I ebayed mine for the PayPal credit
Love to now your thoughts on the new Avid interface Mbox thingy.
Completely overpriced
Will the dx7 pro + make a difference put against the apollo twin x converters for studio monitors and headphones monitoring alike?
I'm gonna say yes, purely because there arent many DAC/headphone amp combos that measure as good as the dx7 pro+ or RME. But that's my guess regarding an apollo, not an actual tested opinion BUT I do plan on testing that out with Ed early in the year when I go to London
Hey Paul, awesome tips! I'm slowly upgrading my headphone setup for production/mixing. Might be a dumb question, but do these Topping DACs have any more latency than pro audio interfaces?
Latency is something to worry about when recording as its a full round trip. ADC picking up the signal and then being converted to digital, and then transferred back to analog in the DAC so you can hear it.
Using a DAC is just purely for monitoring purposes so just digital to analog conversion. That's why you would need a seperate interface for recording.
I have a recording setup and a mixing setup that I switch between.
Alternatively if you want the best of both worlds in one package then an RME interface like UCX ii would be your best shout but you'll pay slightly more dependent on how many pre's you need.
My whole recording and monitoring set up costs around £950 where a 2 channel RME ucx ii costs around £1200. Can be argued you'd be may as well paying the extra for the RME as the ADC side is better spec but I like the revelator pre's and the real time DSP uses presonus fat channel which includes their high quality emus like 1176, la2a, pultec, gate, etc which has become pretty invaluable for my situation for recording the podcast, zoom calls, live stuff etc etc
So it really comes down to your specific situation and what you can afford
@@PaulThird Thanks man! My headphone setup right now consists of an Apogee Duet (ipad/mac version) feeding a Subpac S2 from the headphone out and a Topping L30 (mk1 late serial) from the line out, with a Focal Elex plugged into that. Looking at ASR tests, the Duet could be the weakest link in the chain atm, and I feel like what you're saying in your video kinda supports that theory for me. So I'm thinking I should probably get one of those great measuring cheaper Topping DACs for monitoring as a logical next step, and keep the Apogee for recording, like you did. Or should I get rid of the L30 and go balanced with a DX7, is the upgrade to balanced worth the difference? The Elex came with a balanced cable as well.
Btw for long hours of production and just pleasure listening I love the waves nx abbey road plugin with the head tracker with this setup (at 96k). I lose a little bit of detail, but I get a very deep and holographic stereo image especially on the main monitors that to my ears I can't find in other room sim plugins so far. Some say the tracker is a gimmick, but I can actually work longer when I have it on. I just bypass the plugin when I need the intimate and insane detail of the Elex, but I spend most of my time on the nearfields or mains so I don't get ear fatigue. I've rolled the bass off so it evenly fades into the visceral lows of the Subpac, which gets a separate clean signal. Loving this setup going 2 years now.
The DAC is a huge part of what you are hearing. I didn't think I'd hear much difference going from the id44/l30 mk2 combo to the dx7 pro+ but it actually makes a lot of sense as it's proper DAC where the l30 mk2 is being fed the signal from the audient line outs which imparts its own sound.
Just a purer signal with the dx7 pro+ but the converters also play a big role as they are using ESS SABRE ES9038PRO chipset which is their flagship. Those chips get used a lot for home theatre use and stuff.
And also its really high quality 24 bit Bluetooth transition as well which I've still not even tested haha
Thanks for your input, many wise things you´re saying here.
I personally went from RME ADI DS heigh end converters to Digigrid, and thought wow this is so much better!!
Then recently tested a MOTU 828es and again: It was better, more clarity, definition and soundstage.
I learned from a friend whos works for a manufacturer for music gear, that it is not only about RME or else, but it makes a different how old the convertes are.
In the last couple of years AKM and ESS developed amazing products and that is what´s making it happen.
ESS Sabre chips is what MOTU uses and many others like RME are using AKM chips, but they are alle great.
Even the cheaper presonus Quatums are using AKM´s and the sound awesome, watch the comparison from the Quatum vs the Apollo x16 here on RUclips, it´s a blind test and you can not tell a difference!
Toppings flagship devices are ESS chipset with their own circuitry. Their budget options are AKM and they still measure better than a lot of mid price interfaces but interesting how topping prefer ESS chipset
Hi, interesting video! Question: how can you tell how loud headphones are in db?
ruclips.net/user/shorts4i1LelGJhK4?feature=share
Yep, the RME stuff is great. Total Mix FX is a pain though (it's powerful, but it's a pain). Also: If you have sensitive ears or usually don't listen to music on headphones: don't mix on headphones. Just don't. Even mixing on iLouds will get you better results in that case AND feel like a vacation. Get your room half-decent, do the rest with room-correction software and enjoy your life.
I love listening on headphones haha Ed still doesn't believe me that Ill never mix on monitors. It's just my preference
@@PaulThird If you are used to it, why not. I only use my headphones for cross checking and only with Sienna. I am used to monitors. I feel insecure with mixing on headphones.
2:37 Nothing wrong with a small package. That's what my missus says.
As long as she's happy.. As long as she's happy haha 😜
Hello, thank you for the interesting video. Can you use the Topping DX7 directly as an audio interface (only for monitoring)? Or is there a reason why you go via the Audient audio interface?
Yes if you use ASIO driver in the daw. Outside of DAW you can use dx7 pro+ driver.
I keep the revelator & l30 mk2 combo for recording as the dx7 pro+ is purely a DAC. No ADC in there.
Good video, Paul. It’s the same conclusion I’ve arrived at. Have you ever read Nwavguy’s site? He details the creation of his odac and O2 amp.
Audeze headphones are something I always found strange when I’ve heard them. I’ve heard some electrostat setups at Axpona that were great but I only liked them maybe 5% more than using the Nwavguy stuff with a K701.
There was some RME interface that measured about as well or better than the Hilo.
Great to see you posting the data about impedance. These companies could all just try to integrate the O2 approach so low and high impedance phones will work well. Instead they don’t usually bother to tell us much of anything about the headphone section.
You’re doing everyone a big favor with the advice you gave here.
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Interesting stuff. Just wanted to ask if Topping L30 II sounds better than Topping DX3 Pro+ and built in SSL 2+ hp amp? How would you rate these three?
Topping dx3 pro+ is the full package. Don't rate any of the SSL interfaces
@@PaulThird Thx for the answer Paul.
But would be L30 II an upgrade vs DX3 Pro+?
I didn't fully get - "don't rate any of the SSL interfaces" - It means you don't know them to judge how their hp amps sound?
I know how they measure and I know a few guys that have had them and tested them. Emrah tested the SSL and told me that the hp amp audibly colors and distorts the sound when pushing the volume. Pretty much useless for cleanly driving headphones with low sensitivity.
If you look at the specs it'll tell you enough.
Output impedance of 10 ohms which is decent but not great. You are looking for impedance of 1 ohm as anything above 1-2ohm can impact the frequency response of low ohm dynamic headphones.
THD of 0.05% is -66db which is in the audible range and not specifying at what mW/ohm so most likely even higher when pushed which explains Emrah's issue.
100mW max power into 32 ohm is very poor. Toppings e2x2/e4x4 interface has a professional grade hp amp and offers 580mW into 32 ohm. Even toppings £100 dx1 dac amp offers nearly 3 times the power at 32 ohm with 280mW.
SSL doesn't have the power to drive planars correctly, nor offer clean power, or guarantee a flat frequency response with low ohm headphones
That's why I don't rate ssl interfaces for headphones
@@PaulThird Thx for feather explanation Paul, I appreciate it. Now it's clear to me. So both DX3 Pro + and L30 II are an upgrade vs SSL2+. I already have DX3 Pro+, is its worth to buy an L30 II for mixing purposes?
I can't afford RME or DX7 Pro yet;)
Nah dx3 pro+ will give you as much as you need. L30ii in conjuction with dx3 will give you more clean gain but you only need that if you plan on driving something super hungry like dan clarks or something
A struggle ive had is that a lot of studio monitor headphones are great for hearing detail when tracking but are extremely colored in a way the can sound great but makes it difficult to guess how it will translate. Tried 7506, 770, 990, and k240. I have a bunch lying around that are more for listening, hifiman, grado, etc. and those were probably safe to write off but the pair I didnt try for the longest time was my sennheiser 598. That a basic plugin to simulate crossfeed and mono and youre golden. I actually dont prefer them for listening because i find everything sounds very warm and almost murky. I gave it a try and matched my recordings to how songs i love sound on them. I was able to judge the dimensions and also pleasantness of the sound better than elsewhere and it translated better to both other headphones and speakers. I love the sizzle of v shaped studio headphones and when i listened back on those it was there. Im not saying sennheiser is neutral, but in the same way youve recommended louder listening there was something about the sound signsture of the sennheiser that felt very easier to work with a produced good results.
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@@PaulThird by the way, i picked up the amp you recommended. Very very very good idea. The day i got it i started working on a new album and im at the 40 minute mark now. The amp, the use of the 598, and a sterling ribbon mic were the biggest changes i made to my workstation and im super happy with the results. I owe you a big thanks for your contribution
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Hello, Paul! I have Lexicon IO22 and Hifiman Sundara. Thinking about buying a headphone amplifier, Topping L30 maybe, but I still don't quite understand how to connect the line out on the soundcard and RCA on the amplifier, are there any kind of adapters?
www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Neo-Oyaide-dand-RTS-Class-B-1-4TS-to-RCA-1-Metre/1YHN?origin=product-ads&gclid=CjwKCAjw8JKbBhBYEiwAs3sxN5rQjpT6V3bsdsQM9_viZxB4R6oSg0xvPIlzhF1jVF47miO1SQ52YhoCcg0QAvD_BwE
Pretty sure thats exactly what I bought.
You need to buy a cable separately and it's really simple. Line outs of lexicon into RCA of l30. Set up the routing on your computer as if you are listening to monitors (line out 1-2 for example) and listen through the topping.
@@PaulThird oh, that makes sense now, thank you!
Good video Paul. Which headphones are you mixing in? The Audeze? I’m struggling to decide which to go for
Hifiman sundara
@@PaulThird thanks for your reply. Cool you use these over the high end headphones/focal/audeze??
Sundaras are high end, they just don't cost as much as focals and audeze.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hifiman-sundara-review-headphone.22529/
My mentor had lcdx and compared to sundara. Ditched audeze and uses sundara every day
@@PaulThird thanks, ok so I guess EQing the headphone amp is necessary with these
With any headphone tbh. They all need correction of some sort
If a uad apollo already has a DAC how do you use the DAC on the DAC headphone amp? Line outs?
Apollo x4 so there's no spdif just line outs and optical..I think
On x4 you use optical spidf.
S/PDIF Optical I/O
When set to S/PDIF, an optical port routes two channels of digital I/O with resolutions up to 24-bit at 96 kHz. Sample rate conversion can be performed on the S/PDIF input. This setting is enabled within the S/PDIF channel’s input strip in the Console application. When the sample rate of the incoming S/PDIF signal does not match the sample rate specified in the Console application, the S/PDIF signal is converted to match Apollo x4’s sample rate. If Apollo x4 is set to use external S/PDIF clock source, sample rate conversion is inactive.
Tip: The S/PDIF output can be configured to mirror the Monitor Outputs, for routing the stereo monitor signals to the stereo S/PDIF input of other devices. This
feature is set with the DIGITAL MIRROR menu in the Hardware panel within the Console Settings window
How can I measure if my headphone level is at the spl -85 mentioned?
ruclips.net/user/shorts4i1LelGJhK4?feature=share
thanks
First of all happy christmas to you and your family.
second - I have a second gen scarlett 18i20, the thd is worse than the topping, but it's the same on the line outs as the headphone amp, wouldn't that be the weakest point in the chain and defeat the point? or is the extra level coming from the topping meaning lower output from the scarlett solving that?
would love to know if it's worth it to add to my setup but obviously don't wanna spend if there's gonna be no point.
or am I missing the point entirely and should be getting an external DAC as well to bypass the scarlett entirely?
DAC makes a big difference. The DAC chipset each use has a lot to do with the sound.
The headphone amps will always be bottle necked by the interfaces DAC & line outs but the amps are more for ensuring lowest headphone output impedance as well as power for hungry headphones. That's where low THD headphone amps really come into their own to my ears when they are being pushed to power hungry cans.
I think most of the scarlett stuff is 1ohm which is great BUT I always hear an improvement on transients and distortion with the topping l30 compared to budget interfaces.
The best scenario is to get a dac/amp combo which is what I did.
@@PaulThird thanks for the reply! that makes me think investing in the dx7 would maybe make more sense.
I mostly use the vsx headphones these days so I'm not battling impedance really, so again I guess I get concerned I'll not get the full benefits. After watching so many of your videos though (and trying out nebula because of you) it's difficult not to get excited about something when you get excited about it haha.
suppose I can always get something and return it if I'm not hearing enough difference though.
apologies for my adhd rambling, nice to talk to someone so knowledgeable though who isn't being paid to sell me something
Dx7 pro+ sounds better than my apollo x6 + l30 mk2 setup. It's defintely good investment
You should also spend some time listening to your mixes at a quieter level, like quiet enough that you could hear someone call your name. Beyond a certain point, the louder you play back your audio the more the system (or even your ears) will start to compress the sound; if you're mixing that loud, then you're mixing to a level of compression that no one else will hear, and your mixes will fall apart at lower levels. The track levels could be off, the frequencies could be out of balance, etc. I'm not saying this should be your primary mixing level, but you should definitely try your mixes out at quieter levels if that isn't something you are used to.
I did say that in the original edit but I went a bit OTT haha
A mixture of both is good for the right balance but I think I made sure to push the loud aspect of it as I know not many are doing that. Most new to mixing on headphones will simply mix at their own comfortable level and not consider mixing around 80-85db as its not natural to them.
I've read big legendary mixers having "their loud" at 90-95db and 80-85db being their conversation level, like what they go down to as a moderate level.
I think in modern times many not growing up in big studios have learned to listen quieter cause its more comfortable and they don't know any better. True that these older pro mixers still listened at quieter levels for translation and finding an overall balance but what they 100% do every time is mix loud at some stage and make decisions based on that level where in modern day times I would say people don't even know to crank the phones and the importance of checking that.
Put it this way, you can mix 16 hours at 82db and 8 hours at 85db. It's not as loud as everybody thinks but if you've not been introduced to loud levels as a normal every day occurrence then you probably won't instinctively do it.
Most big records are played in clubs and venues so ensuring your mixes sound on point at those levels is vital, as is consumer headphone levels but that level isn't an issue as far as I can see cause most new engineers are mixing at that level cause that's what they listen at.
Even some of the comments saying Paul that's too loud.. I'm like fuuuuck you are in for a shock if you walk into a studio with big expensive monitors haha
would this be applicable to the slate vsx?
Applicable to speakers and headphones
I dunno what a headphone amp is
A box that amplifies line level signals for use with headphones
I have sonarworks reference id4
And dt 990 pro 250 ohm
Should i buy scarlet audio Interface
or fiio k5 pro ess dac amp????
I use it for music Production
If its id4 mk2 I would advise a topping l30 mk2 amplifier. If you want a dac amp around the same price as filo k5 pro then topping dx3 pro+
Hello,
Thanks for the update! What is better, the new Topping Dx9 or the RME Adi-2?
I'd say dx9
@@PaulThird thank you sir! I have another question.
If I run my Apollo twin x line output 3 and 4 into a DAC/amp combo, will I run into an issue?
From my understanding the Apollo twin already acts as DAC, however I’ve heard it’s not a very powerful DAC.
Will I run into issues if I run a DAC/AMP combo out of my apollo twin x line out 3 and 4 ?
Yes cause you are running a DAC into a DAC but it wouldn't work anyway as the topping DAC amps only have digital inputs purposely to stop what you have suggested
Unfortunately your twin x has no optical out so there's no way of connecting it to the topping. Your only option is to buy a headphone amp, not DAC amp if you still want to use the apollo
@@PaulThird thank you for help! I will check out amp and not a DAC
You need headphone amps?😱
In the case of low & very high impedance headphones.. Mostly yeah
so does your DAW use the Topping DAC as an output?
Yeah if you use the topping driver you can but I connect spdif it via to apollo
@@PaulThird ok cool, its the only way it makes sense for me as I don't need any in/outs as I am completely ITB. I just bought some Audeze LCD-x so I want to 'feed' it properly.
Its a shame the Topping automatically comes with the amp as I have just bought a Rolls RA-53b 4-output headphone amp, Although the DX7 is still cheaper than the Babyface RME.
Why did you purposely destroy the video quality? Like 3:22 wtf am I looking at?
out of the mouth of the audio god, himself. PT speaks more truth than most can understand. Wise words, indeed.
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Hi Paul! You had a chance to A/B test in real time , the headphones straight into audio interface versus headphones into Headphones amp + DAC?
I'm interested on how much in percentage can you evaluate the change between them ?
Starting to mix on various locations a couple of years ago, I ran some A/B tests between different interfaces, headphones amps and DACs (mid priced vs more expensive) and there was not more than....I would say, 2-3 % difference.
In the end I settled to Aplollo Twin + Beyerdynamic DT 880 - 32 ohm (no headphone amp or DAC needed) as the best option, price vs increase in quality.
I was that anal about it all, every time I recorded the headphones through my mic to ensure that each setup was at the same level for the AB's. Then I'd have to unplug and listen each time. I don't have a splitter so it was genuinely quick in and out.
At the end of the day when it's level matched as close as you can get and you can physically pick out more details in one compared to the other it's an easy test.
The seperation is the easiest thing to pick out through the dx7 pro+. Backing vocals especially. I listened to various mixes and I just had more detail. Better transient response, more low end detail where I could hear the notes slightly clearer with more punch from the kick. Going back to the id44 and l30mk2 felt narrower with less seperation and going back to just the id44 headphone amp on its own was even narrower with way less detail, way less transients and almost like a thin film over it masking the details. Hard to describe.
Could be that I'm using planar headphones which aren't suited to a 50 ohm headphone amp and relatively known to be harder to drive than most dynamics.
So when using the l30mk2 with it which is under 1ohm and more gain than I could ever want then it's obvious there is gonna be a difference due to less electrical damping and less deviations in frequency response, as well as less distortion.
You can't drive a lot of planar headphones to loud levels using most audio interface headphone amps as they have such a low sensitivity, as do your really high impedance dynamic cans.
So my headphones and headphone amp are the 2 main reasons why it's so easy to tell the difference.
If I was to use your 32 ohm beyerdynamics would I still hear a difference in the id44. Yes cause its 50ohm going into a 32ohm but with a modern id14 mk2 22ohm maybe not as much of a difference.
Your beyers are low ohm dynamics and way more sensitive than a planar and can be driven by near enough anything, that's why those beyers are super consumer based as they are so flexible.
Would my sundaras suffer the same fate through the apollo twin x? gonna say yes as UA have purposely been very shady in revealing their headphone output impedance. Even in the manual which isn't a good sign for a planar user like me. For example my sundaras require 318mv for 94dbspl which is inbetween sennheiser hd650 & 600.
So a near perfectly clean and superbly linear 1ohm powerful headphone amp is always gonna have a big difference with a low ohm power hungry planar headphone which also has faster transient response than a dynamic headphone as well as less distortion and more low end extension.
That's why i hear a massive jump in transients and also hear the l30 l30mk2 as cleaner compared to the id44 headphone amp.
In regards to the DAC difference we are then comparing toppings flagship converter to a consumer grade DAC chip. Comparing a DAC that measures better than any on audio science review. The best SINAD as well as a textbook perfect linear frequency response, and a choice of anti aliasing filters so you can avoid any ringing. Almost zero output impedance with extremely low noise and distortion.
With the id44/l30 mk2 combo you are dealing with a signal being output from the line outs of the audient which in itself has a sound, then into a headphone amp, so not the purest of signals.
The topping dx7 pro+ on its own was an easy win vs a budget audio interface & headphone amp combo. I didn't think the differences in converters and circuitry would play such a big role but I now get that's why people have paid so much for RME in the past when the conversion is that good.
I'm gonna test it out in the new year with Ed as he's using UA in his set up and he's considering audeze headphones so we are gonna test the l30 mk2 with his twin and x8p as I don't think he'll want to invest in a seperate DAC.
@@PaulThird super cool and detailed story, thanks Paul :).
In all of this business it's important that everyone feels okay with decisions when it comes to hear details when mixing. My journey was much simpler, I just decided that the difference is too small to justify the price increase, and also watching other professionals about how they're mixing/mastering on headphones.
Sennheiser HD800's and Prism AD/DA here
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Hey. In the end I bought Topping A50
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Great vid. Entertaining and smart. You are wise beyond your years.
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i went from a 2i2 2nd gen to the audient 14mk2 and difference is night and day for all the reasons you give :) great content......