There was a South Park episode that actually hit that nail on the head The one where the girls made an attractiveness list for the boys Basically the weird/ugly/derp kids who don’t have a huge social ecosystem who also have the propensity to obsess over a certain thing do that thing a shitload I’ve noticed that before you’re successful you’re “deluded” and after you’re “tenacious/talented/genius”
Don't get discouraged by watching El Estepario Siberiano. he has clearly said that he was suffering from depression after he couldn't finish school and other stuff. he started playing drums as a way to overcome depression. he would practice 8 hours a day 24/7 for years. he didn't get out of his house. He has done more than 10,000 hours of practice
That's not correct. He was already a professional drummer before dropping out of Uni and becoming popular online. He got depressed because he was fired from his band, which was his job at the time. He decided to record all the progress he had achieved and that's when he got famous.
I would rather say « don’t get discouraged by watching El Estepario Siberiano, he is exceptional. Thousands of people have been making a living out of playing the drums without having 10% of his technical proficiency. You don’t need to be in the top 0.1% to do what you love and even make a living out of it. »
Talent is front loaded. It makes an enormous difference at the start of journey, and asymptotically less as you approach the end. Purely theoretical example: take two ten year old kids who have never touched the drums, one who has a natural affinity, and one who has very little affinity. One learns a simple 4/4 beat in minutes, while the other takes hours. Have them practice properly (assume both practice as ideally as is possible) for four hours a day, five days a week. At the end of the first month, there will be a continent between the two subjects. At the end of the first year, a chasm. At the end of the first five to ten years, a noticeable gap. At the end of the fiftieth year, the better drummer will likely come down to your subjective judgement. Natural affinity grants a head start (which is magnified when you start very young), but at the end of the day, it's hard (and smart) work that gets you to the destination.
true, though I think I covered this in the video. In real life, that second kid id going to wash out of drums long before they get to music school imho.
I tend to agree. I first took piano lessons when I was very young and although I never realised it at the time, I probably had a natural affinity for it. Now many years later attempting to learn the drums as an adult, I realise the unfair advantage I would have given myself if I'd started learning drums in my formative years also. I now consider my drumming ability to have 'caught up' to my piano playing ability - but it has taken many more years of practice and dedication to the drums, than I ever remember spending on my piano practice as a kid. The speed of how quickly you can pick something up before moving onto the next learning task is huge. I suspect that all the people in the study who completed 10,000 hours of practice saw significant progress in that time. A less talented person putting in just as much effort would probably have given up well before the 10,000 hours, as they didn't make progress fast enough and got disillusioned. I like to think of talent as 'untapped potential'. Everyone has a measure of talent - but they need to put in the work to realise that talent. So just because someone has talent it doesn't mean they don't have to work for it. But likewise, someone who is less talented may have to put in more work to attain the same level of playing ability.
@@8020drummer There also has to be a personality that is satisfied with mastering a single thing....a real passion. I LOVE playing the drums with my band on stage, but to be honest, I'm never going to be Eloy or Sibiriano or Gadd.....I just enjoy too many things to really dedicate myself to becoming a master at any one of them. I see this in my career as an attorney as well.....There are going to be folks that become experts in their field and become known as the go to attorney for federal construction contracts, or supreme court appeals.......that aint me! Im perfectly fine with this by the way! Im completely satisfied to be a "good enough" drummer with a gazillion other interests! Which is EXACTLY your point around minute 12 of this video!
I started playing around 20 years old. Now 38, I feel like I’ve progressed a decent amount but when I first started, I started alone and picked up drums quickly and got so many compliments from friends and fellow drummers saying I had the talent for it. While I felt proud of myself and motivated I think it did me more harm than anything else, and it was because I felt I didn’t have to really put in work to get a whole lot better. Anyway, at the time there was a kid who’d been playing for about 3 or 4 years before I started, now he practiced all the time, everyday I would see him with his pad and practicing paradiddles or triplets and thought “maybe I should be doing that too” but I didn’t. Anyway, fast forward to 18 years later, he plays for an orchestra, reads music, knows about 3 other instruments and I can humbly say he’s at where I think I should be by now but he put in the hours to something he’s passionate and I didn’t. Not to take away that I don’t love playing drums, I think the issue with me has always been putting enough dedication to the craft and lacking discipline when it comes to practicing things and I feel my playing now is clearly a result of that mindset. Really enjoyed this video!
I'm a wannabe drummer, so I watch your videos. I have an interesting view on this topic. The first time someone asked me to pat my head and rub my tummy simultaneously, I did it effortlessly. I then switched hands and did it. I could also alternate clockwise or counterclockwise. I could even pat my tummy and rub my head and do all the combinations. That's natural talent. Yet I believe all but a few with deliberate practice could do it too. I went to high school with someone that played in the NHL, was drafted #1, and failed miserably. Doug Wickenheiser. Look it up. Doug had a mustache and was fully grown at 14. He had a genetic advantage that made him a world class player up until he was 19 when he joined the NHL. Natural talent got him there, but then he ran into others that practiced more than he did. If you read the story about Wayne Gretzky, he spent thousands of hours practicing. He wasn't a fully grown man at 14. I don't know if Wayne was naturally gifted with above average hand eye coordination because he was so focused on hockey, he didn't do anything else. Wayne of course is considered the greatest ever in hockey. If Doug had practiced more instead of relying on natural talent, I think he'd have had a far better career. There are four types of people in ALL endevours with where I crudely demonstrate where they would fall into a gradient curve. Talent + Quality Practice = Top 5% Quality Practice Alone = Top 20% to Top 5% Talent Alone = Top 40% to Top 20% Little talent + low quality practice = Everyone else No matter how much talent you have, quality practice will get you into the top 1/3 or higher and that is enough to be happy and successful
I was with you until you gave the matrix like it was foregone. It’s an interesting hypothesis, and largely agrees with my suspicions, but we can’t really say for sure until it’s been studied
10,000 hours noodling in front of TV < 2,000 hours focused practice Side note -- I have spent over 50,000 hours trying to sleep and I'm still complete garbage at it. Really nice video man, and great topic. I completely agree with the fundamental theme that all of these ways include time playing your instrument 10,000 hours. I like to think great players learn how to learn...Environmental factors can help provide that at a young age (like JD Beck getting mentorship from Sput). I would assume the best spend 10,000 hours learning to practice well. Then they spend another 100,000 hours learning to play well. Of course these numbers are just arbitrary...and there are so many different ways to become great. However, I feel its important to highlight how we spend that 10,000 hours. I remember Benny Greb speaking on the importance of focused practice vs unfocused. A crude reduction of what he said is that an hour of focused practice was (basically) better than 5 hours of noodling in front of a TV. He admitted that you can train your muscles passively while focusing on other things, but as musicians the connection to the brain is the most important part to train! Love that idea. Always love your videos and tone as a voice in the drum community! Thanks Nate!
Thank you for saying what I was thinking but saying it so much better. You’re absolutely right. Focussed practice is a massive factor combined with the right tools and understanding of how to practice.😊
When I'm learning something new, I have to focus. After that I will often practice the thing and allow myself to multitask. It depends on the goal. A good deal of practice is just repetition and working the muscles & eventually getting to the point you can play things without conscious thought
Dude! I grew up a couple miles from O'Hare in Chicago. I feel your pain. Every phone conversation had at least one "hang on, there's a plane... ok go ahead." Great vid with an important message. At the end of the day, what difference does it make? Are you having fun practicing/playing? Are you getting better? Then keep going, talent or not.
I think the strong form of the "talent fundamentalist" argument is that only talented people can actually get better. Which makes it a bit chicken/egg, but "if you're getting better" probably means you're already talented, so, as you say, keep on keeping on
Talent definitely plays a role. I’ve been playing for 54 years and I can’t play like Serbiano. I ‘m more than 40 years older than him! I’ve practiced at least 10,000 hours, probably more. Plus I play gigs two to 5 times a week. I consider myself to have had a small amount of talent. I played gigs at 13 years old. Also as a teacher I can tell you 85-90% Of the students I get have little or no ability. I try as best I can to encourage them anyway. One last thing, I’ve met guys almost never practice and they sound almost as good as i do. How do you account for that ?
@@jeffdecker8665 This times 1000! As a bucket list I took up drums at age 59 three years ago. I have a great instructor who is as patient as Job and gives me realistic, yet challenging, exercises. The truth of the matter, however, is that even with an hour of practice a day I am lamentable. I can do basic rudiments and basic beats and fills but it is astounding how "ungifted" I am musically. I can't even play Wipeout! Yet I see local 7th and 8th graders who are FAR more advanced than I am. I know, don't compare oneself to others and I really enjoy this, but I am also perfectly frank with my instructor that I never would have had the drumming "it" even if I had started early in life. Heck, I can barely keep a great WITH a met! My point? That I lean very far to the idea that talent is very real and no amount of work can get past that. I have a surgeon friend who has litte free time in life yet can play the clarinet like a seasoned session musician.
@@jeffdecker8665 I would think the amount one has played is irrelevant if ones musical goal and direction is different from Serbiano for instance when comparing ones playing to his. Is it possible that if one practiced the things he did using the same regiment one would have the same result the variable being the time it takes to reach the same results? Not really sure how you'd quantify something like that but it would be interesting to compare 2 willing students with the same drive but different talent levels. I consider talent as ones speed of understanding and or ability to accomplish a task / reach a goal. I feel talent will get you to a deeper level of ability quickly but it seems that one will run into a wall, no matter the talent level, that necessitates further understanding and practice to get beyond that plateau. I suppose talent could be associated with feel in subjects like this and that might be linked more to physical attributes than learned through practice, at least on a fundamental level, for music? So the question I'd ask myself is, do the guys that almost never practice actually get any better or do they just kind of hover around the same level correlating to the amount they play.
@@frumpywonkmeyer4518 I agree with your assessment. You are right that talent is the ability to learn something quickly and not too painfully😝 . If something is too hard to learn, most people will quit, I see it all the time. Also, you’re right about comparing oneself to someone else. When I think about the types of practicing I’ve done over the years, it wasn’t always about being technically amazing. Some of it was reading or coordination or music theory, or odd times etc…. So I think what you practice to reach your goals is as important as how much. 20 years ago I didn’t know it was even possible to play double strokes with your feet. Now it’s done all the time. If I spent the next 10 years practicing that I could probably do it. Is it worth it. I don’t know?
Spot on for the most part. I think ANYONE can practice drums enough to get technically proficient to a level where they could play professionally in most genres. But there are what I like to call "intangibles" - and those are qualities to a drummer's playing that are unique to them alone. They can't be taught. And those intangibles are something that usually emerge pretty early in a player's journey and become part of a signature playing style. And then there are matters of having feel and groove - and that is having a sense of how a song flows and ebbs and being able to naturally sense when to play ahead or behind the beat. Not every drummer can do this well no matter how much they practice. Listen, there's a reason that no one can play Bonzo's drum parts quite as well he did - the dude had an almost supernatural sense of groove. And I've seen high-profile drummers who are as studied and well-practiced as someone could be still struggle with this. And those are the guys who sound like a drum machine. Perfect meter and mechanics with no sense of feel and dynamics at all. One such drummer who shall remain nameless just lost his job in a high-profile prog-metal outfit to the original drummer because of this. And that original drummer has amazing groove and feel despite being much less technically-proficient (although to be fair, he's no slouch there either). So, yeah talent helps - it's not a lie. I think it can be the difference between someone who has studied and practiced to the point of technical perfection vs. someone who has developed a dynamic and instantly identifiable signature sound and style. Both of those types of drummers can be very successful - but who are you going to remember?
I’ve been playing drums on an off for 15 years. I recently found your channel and I can honestly say that your videos have leveled up my drumming in just a few months. You’ve helped me break down and tie together some of the techniques and ideas I’ve been dancing around for years. Having more fun than ever. Major thanks, will continue to watch and support your great work!
I am 65yo and am convinced that any endeavor for a man is “10% inspiration and 90% perspiration”. If I had known this in 1974 I would’ve PRACTICED instead of running around PRETENDING to be so talented. I ended up building hardwood stairs and giving up drums. Regrets? Sure. Unhappy? Not a chance! Love your channel, Nate, been a sub for years 👍
Natural talent in music means good ears, perception, intelligence, musicality, picking things up easily, duplicating and remembering parts fast. There are people who definitely have all that and there are others who don't (as much, anyway) and have to struggle much more. That's one part of the argument. The other part that relates to the 10,000 hours rule is also controversial. There's a difference if one has open minded instructors who can help efficiently a student get there; What are they are going to study in those 10,000 hours? There's mindless practice and there's fruitful practice that helps one overcome their limitations, improve technique, enhance their creativity and develop musicality. Especially in drumming all that applies more, since the drumset is less than 150 years old. That being said, things are much better now than 25 years ago, so Siberiano has a point; we are just lazy.
Watch Yoyoka! She was better than most drummers as soon as she got muscles enough to hit the drums. She is on another level than "RUclips drummers" that edit their audio/videos to be impressive
"But I love to play"! is the same as, but I love archeology, but I love science, but I love driving, I think we know what we love and that's where talent comes in. It's meant to be.
There’s no question some people are naturally much better than other. A analogy; Some people can throw a ball 90 mph +, while most people could practice for a lifetime, but would never get close.
Have been a bassist for 15 years, but always wanted to play the drums. Started playing drums at age 36, and enjoying it to the full. I am no way near being pro, but I love it❤
you're already a really talented player, but beyond what you say being true, I really think that is useful and valuable, and that you have think about it to be like this, and this really talks a lot about you as a person. Glad to follow you, man.
What about little johnny who at age 4 or some stoopid age rocks up and plays chopin (i know instrument difference) better than those who put in the hours? Or is that where being a prodigy comes into play?
This video was very topical for me, and I appreciate you taking the time to compile all of this research! Thank you, and great video! You are incredibly talented and appreciated.
Human beings are just highly variable, unfortunately for many of us. Gaussian distributions like the curve you showed are not how we are actually distributed. I know with IQ, for example, there are many more outliers and less people in the middle. But we normalize the distribution because it's more PC, and in line with the "you can be whatever you set your mind to" mantra we are fed since preschool. In reality, some people are just insanely intelligent, and many aren't even close to the middle and will never have that kind of ability no matter what they do with their time. If this is true for brain power as well as physical abilities, then it's certainly going to apply to everything in between. But the good news is, IMHO, that creativity is something much harder to quantify, this is crucial to anything that involves the arts or music. We don't just want to watch robots with chops, we want to see people who can make us feel something. A drummer watching other drummers is likely to feel something much more based on talent than the average person, who is going to feel something much more closely related to the overall fit to the rest of the music. Ever notice that in a lot of our favorite songs growing up that the drums are just basic? People like Ringo get a lot of criticism, but the Beatles made some of the best songs of all time and rarely does anyone say they needed better drumming (unless it's a drummer saying it). I would also bet that a lot of these super talented drummers, if sat down next to each other, would all be able to play stuff that the others couldn't. In other words, there's just a natural piece of "you" that develops over time and can't be imitated. This is like how guitar players say "it's all in the fingers" because even playing the same notes, there's always a quality of the individual that can't be copied. Even when it feels like a struggle to make progress, we are developing that unique style that will eventually define us. I'd encourage everyone to keep at their creative endeavors, although NONE OF US know where the world is going. Things are changing so rapidly right now with technology that the music industry is being overturned as we speak. So is every creative field. But humans are what makes art valuable, so we should hold on to that. My guess is that our entire perception of what is valued and why is going to have to be rewritten. And we as artists SHOULD NOT GIVE UP THE FIGHT! There is already an AI that can write and play better drum licks than most of us ever will.... but will we value that? Or is it better to value music because there was human being who lived and suffered and persevered and became inspired all behind it? To me, the answer is obvious!
I'm currently on a mission. I do 4 hrs a day 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon 6 days a week. My son is 4 years old. The way I see it, when he is a teenager I will be a focking beast behind the kit!!! #cantstopwontstop
Very interesting video. I always wondered about this topic, and also about myself and this. 60 years has passed since I started, and took minimal lessons. But I did put in tremendous effort in , in my teens. Turned pro at age 17, and after 5 years did manual labor day job and only played weekends. People have always told me how good I am, but because this is my field, I actually know that I am fair, maybe just a bit better than fair. I had the 10,000 hours in likely around age 22-25. I think my talent was minimal, just determination got me here, retired from day jobs, and pro drumming again for the past few years. I am almost 69 btw. I love playing my drums and expressing myself through music. It is still fun, and I am happy that I never quit.
Here’s the thing: someone’s 10K hours who is super talented does not equal a less talented person’s 10K hours. Case in point: I know drummers who have progressed a lot and now are crushing, but who had their basic pocket and groove and speed at a very young age. They never had to spend hours working on microtime or single stroke technique. They “naturally” had the ear-hand-foot coordination to play on time and in the pocket - it comes out the way they hear it in their head. So every hour I’m spending on micro time and groove, they’re working on something else with time and groove as givens. Also, they can be away from the instrument for months or years due to illness or personal issues, but whenever they sit down, cold, having not touched a drumstick in forever, they are annoyingly more musical, creative, and play with crushingly good pocket than most drummers who have been practicing that whole time. Also check out Aron the Bassist or Miles the Music Kid - they haven’t even been alive 10K hours.
I probably have 10k in but I've been at it 30 years. I am definitely not an expert or an elite. I still get paid for what I love. There isn't any need to compare myself to anybody else. I'll do what I do and the other guy can do what he does. As long as people are enjoying what you're doing it's all good.
"good enough to enjoy it..." Many, many, many! years ago, in high school, I was 'good enough' to play in a "rock/cover band" and actually have gigs and save my sanity. Since then, (60 years!) I've lost some / gained some - but always the key has been: "good enough to enjoy it." Great 'bottom line,' Nate. Thanks for posting.
I started playing 3 months ago at 43 years-old. I am busy as hell, but definitely find that the more I can put in, the more I get out. I am never going to try to aspire to Siberiano levels because I know I don’t have that kind of time to put in. I find that setting modest goals has been really good for me: hold a groove in time with a click, work on limb independence etc. All of that being said, even in the last couple months, I have gone from feeling uncoordinated as a slug to actually being able to intersperse 16ths on the kick while keeping steady 8ths on the hats. This is huge-and a big motivator to see where I can potentially grow from there. At the end of the day, I just fucking love playing. Best midlife crisis ever.
Hah! I was going to mention "Outliers" even before you got there - but for a different reason. If you read the first chapter about young developing hockey players, you can see that there are structural barriers and gates that dictate what's available to upcoming talent. Likewise, at least in my experience, those kind of breaks came to an otherwise average talent level player. I was a novice drummer, but hanging around a drum shop, 2-3 hours every day. I happened to be there when the sales guy gets a call. "No, sorry, I can't...hey hold on a sec..." he asks me if I could sub for a country band the next night. (I'm not even a country fan!) Of course I said "yes!" Then I panicked. I was "good enough" to do about 5-6 gigs with this band. A few years later, I auditioned for one of the biggest rock bands in my metro area. It turns out my "country chops" is what got me the gig. We ended up moving to New York City and worked with some of the biggest names in the business. Basically, I'd say 10,000 hours works because, during that time, you're bound to create other opportunities that (hopefully) demand more of your talent. And part of your skillset is rising to the occasion. Fast forward about 20 years, and I hadn't touched a drum kit in over a decade. One brief phone call from an old friend, and it turns to a local gig, which turns into a regional act. With all of the RUclips videos out there, watching elite drummers is once again extremely intimidating. I hooked up with a well-regarded drum teacher who immediately told me "don't forget to enjoy where you're at." That was a huge key. And so now, it's back to the pads, and progress is slow, but I measure it, and it's forward. One thing's for certain. I'm not getting worse.
Siberiano is the one drummer I can't watch, he makes me irrationally angry, like watching a dude casually fly like a bird while telling you the only reason you can't is because you haven't tried hard enough. I'm 47, I've probably done 20k hours behind the kit at this point but I never got good. Of course practice is important but unless Siberiano has literally put in double the hours of everyone else, there must be more to his playing than just practice.
no offense, but I could almost *guarantee* you haven't done 20k hours of *deliberate practice* behind the kit. Or else you're like a 3 sigma outlier. I think people think they have for a few reasons: -gigs, which aren't the same as deliberate practice -practice with long periods of interruption -they're actually just overestimating it Big disclaimer - I could be wrong. But I'd encourage you to actually pull out a piece of paper (which can be virtual) and try to calculate how many hours of deliberate, high-quality practice you've actually put in. I did this in my 20s and it was like a quarter what I'd assumed it was.
@@8020drummer Practice with long periods of interruption are great imo. Your mind and body uses that time to digest and internalize the things you're working on. Especially for independence, four hours or practice over the course of two days can go a lot further than four contiguous hours. Of course, more hours are generally more better, but if we're keeping the number of hours constant anyway, the less contiguous hours win more often than not.
@@JeffGraw when I said "long periods of time" I was talking about years. I've had many students who would practice for a few months, then let it fall by the wayside for years.
@@8020drummer Fair enough, that makes sense. I'm glad we expanded on that, since an onlooker could misinterpret and think "I should avoid small breaks."
Such a thought provoking video (again)! I'm 51. If i'd seen myself doing what i now do as a teenager, I'd be so disappointed; still playing with the same concert band i started when i was 8 with euphonium, then switched to drums & percussion at 15. Never "made it", still trying to achieve a smooth double-stroke roll, even moved back to my hometown early on. On the other hand; lifetime of musical friendships, competency to play anything i want within that context (on drums and percussion) and occasionally conducting both concert and percussion ensembles without much formal training at that. Spreading the good word of teaching percussion via the local PAS chapter regularly. And enjoying every second of it all. The 15-year old me would have his jaw on the floor seeing my double-stroke roll. A 20- or 30-something me would find it beyond incredible how i lock-in with some tuba/ bass players i've been playing with for 30+ years. This is a path of mastery we will never master. We get better, yes, and striving to get even better and getting to know the most amazing people in your musical life along the way is the point of it all. Keep up the good work, Nate!
Thanks Nate for the longy and deepy.... My thoughts? I am going to be 63 this year. I started working professionally at 18 years of age. For the bulk of my life I have only played drums to make a living. In 2000 I started a small company not related to music as a side hustle. I had always heard the 10,000 hours to be an expert, but I thought that meant both practicing and also performing and gigging. So in my 45 years of drumming I considered myself an expert, but I never did the 8 hour a day practice routine Weckl or Gavin Harrison did to make them in my opinion two of the greatest drummers of all time. Now, at my age, I have more of a passion to play then I ever did as a younger man. At that time I was working full time at Disney World and freelancing. I always felt like a reasonably big fish in a medium pond. I always knew had I gone to New York or LA without having gone to North Texas or Berklee I would have in all likelihood been sent packing. So I feel I have enough talent to have alot of people tell me I play great, and I see improvement when I practice new things, but I am light years from being a Vinnie, Larnell, or a thousand other guys. At my age, I wonder, do I just resign myself to the fact I may never get there? Do I just strive to be the biggest fish in my medium pond? There are so many variables about this topic. I always enjoy your videos. You get deep and I like that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I invite you to check out my playing if you have not already and share your thoughts with where you, a total stranger think I am at. Maybe I suck, and I am kidding myself. Thanks Nate!
few thoughts - comparing yourself to others is literally worthless. (gaining inspiration from others is valid.) If drumming is a means to an end of producing pleasure in your life, wouldn't it make more sense to try to exceed the threshold at which you can enjoy playing every time you sit down? I've seen a lot of coaching students who said similar things, then we fixed some basic things to get them out of a rut, and they were on a different trajectory. But also with a changed understanding, because we'd filled in a lot of the territory between them and, say, larnell. But I also say take anybody who thinks they'll "never have what it takes", and let them practice an hour-a-day for ten years, and 99% of them will have washed out, or just done it in fits-and-starts, and the other 1% will be killer players.
im another random guy and i know you didn't ask but I genuinely think you sound very good. I hope the youtube algo is kind to you in the future. Dont take this as an insult or something backhanded, I just don't see you playing anything that makes me go HOly eff that is incredible. its just all very well played exactly how it should be to fit the music and that's fine. It just lacks the wow factor that would make you stand out amongst all the other good players. there's no obligation for you to do that its just that I think the internet rewards ppl who do flashy stuff
@@efafe4972 I certainly don't take offense. Was this a comment on the talent subject, or just a meditation on my youtube success visavis my flashiness? I think flashiness is probably more important for stuff like tiktok or insta. Siberiano is the biggest solo drum influencer, and maybe the biggest influencer of all, and a lot of it is down to his "wow factor". But we could both name youtubers who are on the "less flashy" side who have bigger audiences than I do, and one who IS a flashy player, who I think can credit his humor and filmmaking style more than his flashiness. IN any case, I'm working toward being more of a chopper - to the degree it comports with my voice - not necessarily because it will increase my influence, but just because I intrinsically want to play like that.
@@8020drummer i was talking to the original commenter LOL. its not as cut and dry as i made it sound. there are obviously a lot of other ways of standing out as you mentioned. you for example are a great educator, some guys have incredibly deep pocket others have a unique vibe etc. our original commenter just plays along to tracks. I was mainly trying to say that if you're just trying to get noticed playing along to stuff being awe-inspiringly good is the way to do it. even that isn't just flashiness. probably wasn't a good word but whatever
@@efafe4972 was this reply directed to me and my post or to Nate? If it was directed to me I appreciate the comment. My intent is not to be the new wow guy on the web with tons of flashy chops. I think my focus is more on showing the web that a 63 year old guy can play a lot of music from big band to broadway to pop and rock. I play charts I transcribe note for note and just try to perform it musically. Not because I think playing something from Wicked or the Woody Herman will make me an internet sensation, but might help someone looking for a well rounded solid drummer for any number of projects. If your comment was directed at Nate, I think he is a pretty flashy player who does things I definitely can’t do. He put a lot of time in the woodshed to master a lot of control on the kit which I am sure translates into him sounding musical on gigs. At my age I am looking to be the best player I can be, but realize the likely hood of me taking over the drum chair for Kansas, the Big Phat Band or a national Broadway tour of something isn’t real likely.
Siberiano is right, but he puts the problem in a very simplistic way, it`s not about only the practice but how you were raised. I think this is more important than the practice itself. If you were taught how to deal with frustration, if you got positive feedback on your craft, if you were let to experiment and choose yourself what instrument you`d like to play, and even with all of these if you were not exposed to a vast variety of music all the practice in the world would only make you a good player but not a great artist. Again, practice is 50% at best. For me, talent is all these things combined minus the practice.
Siberiano is amazing on his style, he's fast, clean, very physical and he's clearly on a different level on those aspects of drumming. But I honestly think you just flow better. It's just my opinion though. Based on the fact that his style is similar to mine. I think he'd have a hard time replicating your playing style too.
But what is “talent”, what is “advanced”, what is “professional”. My 2 cents will always be: analogously switch from drummer to lover - there’s more to it than clinical speed and pinpoint precision ✌🏻😆
Sure, but this is kind of the “layer 2” argument. Of course there’s the paradox of the subjectivity of art. We accept that. But within that there’s still a mostly-measurable skills gradient. We’ve all seen American idol. The people “good enough” had a variety of approaches but none of the rejects was turned down because they were ultra-good, but just in an u orthodox way. They mostly sucked.
@@8020drummer Haha: “They mostly sucked” - I’m not gonna argue with that 😂 But case in point, it’s no secret that EES doesn’t do it for me personally. Sure, he’s got some mad abilities, some extraordinary tricks, and he seems to be a really cool dude and he’s obviously brilliant at social media (but when it comes to progressive drumming I’m more into guys like Gergo Borlai & Thomas Pridgen). But the case I’m arguing fits with your example of American Idol: I question that John Bonham would qualify, or Stewart Copeland, or Jeff Porcaro or Phil Rudd etc. etc. I sincerely believe “talent” is something way deeper than learning advanced “effect playing”. And I for one is not sure that you just through practice can have the feel like the ones above. So, I probably disagree with EES on that point (and I actually think that he’s a good example of that). But on the other hand I do think (and then possibly agree with EES) that talent is in a sense the ability to be passionate. And being deeply passionate about something surly helps in any form of development. But is it enough without “talent”? I’m on the fence. I’ve might have missed the mark with this comment and please disregard it if that’s the case. Just a somewhat bitter old drummer who’s tired of all the “effect playing” that gets so much attention and so often gets regarded as the pinnacle of drumming 👊🏻😅
@@flowerlandofjohn Glad to see someone mention Gergo Borlai - he's definitely put his hours in and he has crazy chops but more a m u s i c i a n with those chops than a technician. EES can put in ten thousand more hours but he'll never be as good as Gergo - not to my ears. No disrespect to EES - he's amazing !
Some people do get better quicker then others, for sure - but I think that has more to do with there problem solving skills. If you can figure out why something is a problem and slowing your practice down, you can fix it - which can reduce the amount of time you spend working on the issue. Because you aren't going to get everything right at the start, in fact you probably will get a lot wrong, with or without a coach or teacher.
I’m not sure that generalizes to all disciplines tho. Some may come out of the womb with a passion for problem solving around math, and others for problem solving around rhythm
I see this from sort of an opposite perspective - when you meet someone who has worked and worked for years, but never progresses. I've known guys who worked their asses off, but from the start on some level there was always some sort of key intuition just missing. It didn't matter how you explain to them, mentor them, challenge them, give them great tips, there just seems to be some fundamental level where their brains and body just didn't "get it" - beyond that, I don't know how much "talent" (if it exists) compares to the work, but some people do seem to just completely miss the "knack" for certain things no matter how hard they try.
I highly recommend checking out (former Lamb Of God drummer) Chris Adler's performance at the Modern Drummer Music Festival in 2005. There is a video of it on RUclips. What made it interesting was the portion where he spoke to the audience. He was very humble in his assessment of his own natural ability, but he touched on the most important part about playing drums: THEY'RE FUN!
Talent isn't a lie, but it's not enough. Sort of. Case in point: me. 1. I used to play guitar, and had a little bit of talent, but I found I had to work hard to develop chops and play the things I had in my mind. 2. I've been doing visual art a lot longer, and it comes easy to me. I don't like to say I am talented, but other people have used that term to describe me. The key element here is vision and drive/determination. When you are talented at something, it doesn't feel like "work" or exercise, but if you are talented without a vision, it doesn't add up to much. When you aren't talented the drive feels like work, but what makes the work worth it is the vision. Luckily I feel like I have a purpose or vision in doing my visual art. Unfortunately I didn't have that with music. However, I am a better person for having gained a formidable understanding of how music works, and now I am making those skills (little that I have) to make soundtracks for my videos. I use what I have... the vision is what matters.You called it passion.
You are right. It's much more complicated than these sound bites can grasp. The reality is that human beings are highly more variable than a simple Gaussian distribution would suggest, but that is the easiest way to visualize, and so we do. I know this is done with IQ. They have to "normalize" the data to give it that smooth curve. In reality, there are far more outliers than we realize (less people in the middle). This is not how we want to think of things, but it's just the way it is. Some people are insanely good at things, and many have no chance of ever bridging that gap. Sadly, it goes against the "you can be anything you want" mantra that has been pushed into us since preschool
By the way, I'm like you... Visual arts come easy, music, not as much. But finally something clicked in drumming years ago where I felt a huge boost and at least jamming to my favorite music got much easier. And what did I choose to do? .....Learn guitar, lol! Now that's the thing I'm pouring time into because i didn't want to live without melody under my fingers. But I've got no idea if I'll ever be good enough to turn it into anything serious... The hope is to eventually have my own audio visual art of some kind, where i can play to my own video creations
Yes we all need to practice a lot… but aptitude is a real thing… & environment is a SIGNIFICANT factor… I often ask students what kind of music their parents listen to…
I started drumming lessons in 1993 when I was 13. I started being an OK drummer in my 20s, but only cause I didn't practice that much, and I didn't have the chance to play with other people either. And I didn't have a space where I could play all day. With time, and being in a band, I got better and better. Now I'm OK+ which is perfect for me, but I want to get a faster double kick technique, and after years of not having a good foot technique, it's like starting over for me, 30 years later. And it's so cool to see that I learn a lot faster now, than what I could have done 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Thank god that electronic kits are so affordable nowadays !!!!
Lub ya man...been watching for years. I have to say, we are not just who we are in this moment; rather, we are a sum of all our experience. That is to say, this life is an opportunity to make the MOST of it and that "experience" travels with you. Everything you do in this life is carried over. Honestly, if that was not the case and this is all there is...why not just party, pillage and go wild. It's because we KNOW innately to do the "right" thing. The goal is to overcome our animalistic instincts and evolve spiritually, intellectually and emotionally. We subconsciously know this to be true. For those who are in synch with life's mission, pursue greatness in everything that they do. Some folks are old spirits who have come a long way and others are just figuring it out. As long as you are open to learning, accepting, growing and are selfless...you will get there in time. The magic come when you stop thinking you are "Just You" and realize you are anything and everything you imagine yourself to be.
Research suggests that genetic factors play a significant role in determining a person’s musical abilities. While environmental factors (such as exposure to music, training, and cultural context) also contribute, genetics can influence various aspects of musical aptitude. The heritability of musical abilities (i.e., the proportion of variation attributed to genetic factors) varies across different musical skills. Some studies estimate that genes may account for approximately 40-50% of the variation in musical aptitude.
@@8020drummer Medical geneticist Irma Järvelä of the University of Helsinki and her colleagues analyzed 224 family members who either were themselves, or were related to, professional musicians or active amateurs. The subjects were given standard tests of musical aptitude, such as the ability to discern differences in the pitch or duration of two tones. Järvelä found an overall heritability of nearly 50 percent. That is, nature rather than nurture accounted for almost half the observed differences in aptitude, helping explain why some subjects with no musical training scored at a professional level.
@@brandonrox10 interesting. How do strictly defined were the family relations? How much do we think the definitions of musical aptitude the scientists chose generalize to other forms of musical aptitude. How were the differences in skill between and among the “professional and amateur” family members accounted for such that the researchers were sure they were what an audition committee would consider above average. What were the P value and confidence intervals for this study of only 224 people. What I’m getting at is how do we know the correlations weren’t either (1) coincidence, (2) artifacts of stretching the definitions of skill on either end, or (3) environmentally transmitted rather than genetically. Bear in mind, I Agree with the conclusion. But if that’s the best you’ve got I wouldn’t bet a lot of money unless it’s replicated in a lot of places 😅😅
Typically, an assumption that 1000 hours of practice roughly equals 1 year of life seems to be more or less accurate. Unless the world is hit with a pandemic and goes into a global lockdown. Boy, did I put in at least 4 or 5 thousand hours of practice during 2020! 🤣
I started late, at 15, but man, the obsession drove it for 10 years. There was nothing else I liked better than practicing and playing. It has changed since then. Still play and practice new shit, but there isn't much new shit. I know my limitations, and still try to surpass them. I guess when that stops, I'll be done.
I started out WAAAY worse than almost everyone I know. But, I have one thing most of them don't ... and that is a compulsive drive/ passion. I just DON'T give up. I practice 5-6 hours a day, and I JUST.DON'T. STOP. So what i lack in talent, I make up with an insatiable drive to be as good as I think that I can be. I also don't limit myself.. I see no reason why I can't be as good as any other drummer in the world. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I also don't think anyone else is better than me. (( I do realize that there are people better than me at certain things pertaining to drumming, but my point is that I feel there are things that I'm good at that will balance it out) It has taken me years of doubt, crying, etc. I had trouble with clean rudiments for YEARS. maybe a a talented person would pick that up in months, but it took me years of practice. The times where I hated myself, I learned to use that to go back to the basics. I truly think that if you lack talent, you can blur the line with obsession/ drive/passion. Also, you can practice 10,000 hours, but if half of those hours you're thinking of something else, than you're wasting a lot of that time. You need to be driven to the point where you're listening to every single hit, and you're looking at every single movement.. and you're critical of everything single thing you do. It takes THAT to beat talent. I believe someone with passion can be better than anyone born with talent, because the passionate person will work harder. PERIOD!
The older I get (66) the more I realize it’s the journey not the destination (necessarily). Do I want to be great at things? Of, course! But do I have the time left to get there? I don’t know. So the journey becomes the inspiration and not the destination. Young people will not likely learn this lesson until much later in life. But if they can learn the lesson early, and learn to relish the process, then a happier human being they will become.
The ability to put in larger numbers of hours of deliberate practice is a talent. There is variability in how much a person can practice, how effectively that practice is and how long they can sustain that practice. It makes no sense to say to somebody "all you need is more deliberate practice" if they are already at the limit of how much they can practice already.
Raw talent definitely does exist. I believe the advantages of being talented are only realized cumulatively. Meaning, someone with raw talent may find they progress at a faster rate than everyone else and is therefore more incentivized and encouraged to continue. It's easy for someone to work hard, succeed and be completely blind to the inherent advantages they had which led to their success, fostering this idea that anyone can find output the same result with the same amount of work. Everyone's output is different. 100 hours of work will yield different results for different people, and that difference is generally determined by talent.
HWBT. Hard work beats talent. Jimi Hendrix carried a guitar around with him everywhere. Making breakfast... Playing guitar. Now... This is Jimi Hendrix were talking about. Soooooo.
Talent doesn't makes you have the gig , hard practice , good attitude and respect for the part is the key . I can't stand siberiano, pretentious as f*** and overplaying everything , he got talent and succes but no major band seems to give that guy a job for those reasons.
I am not sure that this is covered in any of the comments below or in the video. I think there is a missing, and very important part, which is in the intersection between personal skill, psychology, talent --- and a social aspect. The social aspect has to do with several factor also. But one of them is access to "tradition" or gifted teachers. This aspect is again a multi-dimensional one, but one might try to simplify it by talking about a "musical environment" as one part of it, and the "right teaching of certain technical aspects" on the other. Since we can not really change the social environment in a teaching situation as such, lets focus on the individual aspects. And the individual aspects are, as I see it, as follows: It is not enough to practice or to practice a lot. You have to practice "the right things". This goes for any instrument. If you don't know the circle of fifths you are more or less doomed as a bass-player. If you dont practice certain tunes and develop a way of figuring out the blues-form on a double-bass, you won't get very far. And on the drums: There are certain phrasings on the rudiments that you need to know, especially in jazz. There are a lot of cross-rhythms and polyrhythms to work on too. Still of course, the relation to a given tradition is important. But first of all, and this has been stressed by several guests on the show, you got to KNOW THE SONG. Music happens in a social environment. You can practice so and so much on your own. But by the end of the day, the great drummers we know of became famous not just for their drumming, but because their drumming was a part of a special sound of a special band.
I think there are more talented people in any field than the average person but you shouldn’t be discouraged to get better at it. I played drums in a punk band in my early teens and just got back into it at 43. I can’t explain how much its improved my life to pick it back up. I guess what I’m saying is just enjoy drumming. You don’t have to be the best but keep trying to improve every day and HAVE FUN
I have hopefully a legit question. Does kit size have anything to do with talent? Peart with his AMAZING kit, or Keith Moon smaller kit? El Estapario has a smal kit also
80/20. I love this Siberino master drummer. He's my. Favorite. He's the reigning BEAST. IM 69 years old play nearly every day. You're awesome 👍😎👍😎 too. I adore you're complete take on drums. Wide and deep. Keep up the work. You're awesome
Estepario is nothing...i repeat nothing without the ead10. Sure hes talented, but he uses social media and editing n such to sound cleaner than he is. When he does the one handed gravity blast rolls, they don't really sound that good and clean
It seems to me that talents like drumming are multi faceted. Having an ear for differentiating fine differences in pitch and rhythm is important for any instrument. But so is having the fine motor skills to work the instrument easily. Being able to easily generate creative ideas could be helpful in some cases, but in others, the ability to focus and stay on track would be better in others. Then there is having the ability to woodshed on your own, without losing your mind. Many are most fulfilled working with and through others. Which is another important personality trait to have. And all these skills are inborn. Some people just are born with better motor skills, for example. And people are going to want to do, and stick with, and find the most fulfillment, in what they are naturally good at. And will most likely be successful at. But it’s not one thing alone that defines talent, or success, with an instrument or anything. Imho.
Talent can definitely help initially, as you said. A feeling of competence and progression is a good intrinsic motivator according to Self Determination Theory.Ryan, R. M., & Deci, E. L. (2000). Self-determination theory and the facilitation of intrinsic motivation, social development, and well-being. American Psychologist, 55(1), 68-78.
Are we on about *chops,* or playing that *sounds* great? I'm inclined to think the former is more about putting in the hours, and the latter more innate. Can creativity and musical sense be developed? I think so, at least to some degree, but don't claim to know the answer. So my conclusion: if you *enjoy* it, keep doing it, no need to be "great." Drummers with insane chops are a dime a dozen these days, but *fun* is *priceless.*
10,000 hours doesn't really prove anything. On the other hand, 10,000 focused repetitions of something will guarantee excellence... talent is merely the byproduct of hard work.
Fun fact: I love the way you use that SFX. That sound effect thing is called the “Chi Ching” its Been played millions of times. The guy actually has a platinum record for it. I’m sure he spent 10,000 hours plus writing music. But it all it took was a 3 second cue to build the house on the hill.🥁🥁💯
The drummers who are involved in music at the highest level tend to have talent for music. Mel Lewis, Philly Joe Jones, Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro, Jim Gordon all had/ have incredible musical memory and musical IQ if you will. A bit like ring IQ and timing are what make the real difference in boxing. Just about anyone can put the hours in and look impressive on a practice pad or a punch bag, but so many of the modern day youtube sensations are just like circus acts to me- a wonderful spectacle and entertaining to watch, but absolutely zero music and they usually SOUND horrible! Anyway, not quite sure where I'm going with this- oh well yes: talent for music = great memory/ intelligence + early exposure and passion for music and then a love for your instrument. But talent on drums? No, or not really important (IMO!!)
"Talent" should be banned as a word. "Talent" is best described as "keen interest and bias towards a certain subject" which is basically saying: you have talent if you pursue your thing, if you don't you don't have any talent at all. Nobody is born good playing drums... I was one of the last people who was supposed to be a composer/keyboard player or win any competitions... I didn't listen to music till I was around 12, I HATED music lessons in primary and middle school because I was bullied and I quit taking them... But things still went different because I found out how much FUN i have just playing day after day after day... I started late, didn't take lessons... but I'm still holding my ground. But I put in the HOURS! Thousands and thousands of hours. Because I pursued what I enjoyed... was I talented? Not in the way people use the damn word... but in my way of understanding it? Yes.
It all factors in. Appreciation or love for music, encouragement, talent, practice, proper equipment, mentoring, technique, playing with others (below, equal to and above your level)… they all make and break musicians.
Maybe (probably!) you don't realize that you also have a "talent" for stand-up comedy, Nate! - And science communication, on a all-musicians level, not "only" on a drummer level as you humbly assumed. So, keep going with your deepy and longy science ramblings videos, please. They are extraordinarily helpful - and hilariously entertaining.
Talent is an excuse people throw out when they don't want to put handwork themselves. Nobody got out the womb able to do advanced polyrhythms or drumming at 200+ BPM. This extends to every single thing. It could be drawing, carpentry, coding, gaming, and cooking. Do you think Gordon Ramsay became a Michelin Star chef because of talent? No, he spent many years cooking and cooking and learning and cooking some more to become who he is today.
I think playing drums (which I do, and have for years) is only for talented people. I say this because I can move each limb independently (which most, if not all drummers can do). If you can't do this, I'm not sure that is something you can learn? If it is something you can learn, how much longer will that take? Will that limit to what you can and can't play? I don't know by why I have always been able to move my limbs independently, I've just always been able to. It's not something someone taught me. However, saying that, it did take years of practice to get to where I am. Do I have 10,000 hours of playing? I have no idea. I do know I've played for around 20 years so I'd like to think I'm well over b 10,000 hours. But, when I see a 10 year old playing songs it took me forever to learn, or ones I can't play, there's little doubt some are born with amazing talent.
I don`t know. The argument is a bit weak. First of all: you don`t define talent. I got the impression hat you link talent somehow to success or being famous in the musical world. But talent at the drums could also mean to be very creative because you have to compensate for your weaknesses. That drummer might be very successful in a specific realm. Like Ringo. Can he or she play anything from a technical standpoint? No. My guessing is: Siberiano, the drumming god form Spain, is technically a much better player than Ringo. But Ringo didn`t had to learn playing super fast or complex. Second, you can practice a lot but not very good or efficient. If you are going to music school, you have excellent resources to become elite. Or if your parents are a famous musicians; they will hook you up (buying instruments and records, paying for hours, introducing you to the right teachers (!) and people etc.). The others have to struggle or hustle. That is simple sociology. So what is talent?
You can have all of the talent in the world for something, but if you're a complete idiot you never going to know how to apply it. And if it's a physical activity like playing drums, if you're uncoordinated and a trainwreck physically no amount of talent is going to help you. What if Stephen Hawking was the most talented drummer ever? How's that gonna work out for him? Talent is all well and good, but it can easily be surpassed with hard work. Give me 10,000 hours of playing and let's challenge Mr. Talent over there to a Tortoise vs. Hare race. Guess who wins? It's when the talented guys, the guys who it comes natural to, the guys who just speak it fluently before ever really learning go and work their asses off that you get amazing results.
Jorge trained like 8 hours a day to become the Estepario we know. The guy’s vibe may fool you at first but the he is just as disciplined as the most dedicated Berklee academic out there. I am 4 years older than him and I cannot play at 40-50% of his skill. And I blame it on focusing on my design and multimedia career. Honestly I have been enjoying drums by embracing the fact I kinda suck. It’s fun again.
I couldn't agree more with you more. Too much writing to explain it all but one thing that can't be argued is that we are not all born clones beginning from the same starting point. For drumming, innate talent is about imagination, focus and drive. That's the "knack" as you put it but it doesn't shortcut putting in the work even for the talented. The rest of us humans just have to put in the hard work to develop our abilities to reach our goals. One thing talent does not define is success. That's a whole other ball of wax.
What does ‘good’ mean though? Yes, some people might be able to naturally play a 4/4 beat when they start, and others might need to work at it. But that’s just natural mastery of motor/brain skills. We’re all wired differently. But being good is not just about physical facility. Just because I might be able to play in 19/8 with one hand while playing a samba with my feet and 7/4 with my other hand doesn’t necessarily make me ‘good’, irrespective of how long it took me to get there, and the role that ‘talent’ may or may not have had in facilitating the journey. There is more to being ‘good’ than just technical mastery. Music is much more nuanced than that. I think we’re coming at this from the wrong angle.
Me again. I worked on playing fast singles for years and years. I still can’t play them fast. I’m faster but not fast. I equate it with a Major League Baseball pitcher. Some guys can throw at 95 miles an hour most of us can’t. That’s why those guys make millions. I can’t play like Buddy, would love to, but after 54 years of playing it ain’t gonna happen! That’s talent.
Hard work trumps talent when talent runs out. But You have to be dumb and deluded to recognize natural resonance with activities. Short people who want to be goalkeepers Heavier people who want to be great climbers People who don’t hear music who want to be producers There is a natural deployment of attributes that align humans with activities. And then there is ego (I want) Will and desire can get you very far into your own personal potential. But ego and comparison will make you feel crap about yourself (comparison is the thief of joy)
I just discovered your youtube channel and i cannot stop watching more of your videos. really excited to put what you're teaching in practice! thank you for being available to do the videos and releasing those videos out to us! i appreciate you to the moon and back!
Do people ONLY listen to music made by the most skilled musicians? Of course not. Virtuoso playing doesn’t make music automatically enjoyable. I listen to plenty of things which are not technically impressive, there’s so many other factors involved. I might never be as successful as my musical influences, but I still believe I can write as good or a better song than they can. I no longer feel discouraged with my own level of skill for this reason.
I also think with efficient practice the 10000 hour rule does not apply. You can achieve greatness in less. Also stop saying talent is a Lie. I respect Estepario but his statement is flawed. He is not honest. There are 5 year old Asian kids playing Chopin and LIszt concertos. And someone is saying talent is a lie? Sure people can improve with practice but if a 5 year old can Play A chopin concerto surely he has not lived enough time to even get to 1000 hours of practice , yet alone 10000 or more. That means that talent+efficient practice + starting young = unbelievable greatness. This level of greatness is impossible to achieve if the prerequisites are not met.
Talent is relevant on the level of progress you get on the time you invest on your development. The "gifted ones" develop proficiency 4:08 faster but for those lacking the "gift" it all depends on the time you invest on your development. If you really want it you just have to invest on you own development.
I think, that there is something like talent, but it is heavily overestimated and mostly used to hide lazyness or lack of motivation etc... If you want to be good, you have to practice. Years and decades. Even with talent. No way skipping this. If someone tells you someting different, he`s a liar. If you want to be good at something, you have to be aware of the goal and the way. Or you will fail. There is no trying, just doing.
There is never a shortage of info on the importance of practice and time practicing. However, it seems to me, many drummers forget about how physical the instrument is. So, in my humble opinion, working on your physical strength is super important to get better at playing it. Do these complex compound body movements and then notice how coordination and independence are easier to achieve. Do these movements explosively and train those fast twitch muscle fibers to be able to fly over the kit while pulling off different accents and patterns at high speed, and all that without breaking any sweat. Also note that these fast twitch fibers die off first (as opposed to slow-twitch fibers) as we age unless they are taken care of, so, if you are not super young and/or physical, you can invest there to improve your health, longevity, and your drum skills :) Do train your grip strength and attain amazing finger/Moeller and whatnot hand technique. Maybe a bit unconventional, but seems like working out maybe be the way to kill several birds with a single stone.
Innate talent definitely exists. We see virtuosos of every form overtaking their peers decades older and more practiced then them. When i first started playing, I was maybe 14 and rarely practiced. Me and my pals were getting into music and wanted to do the local battle of the bands (we never even played or found a singer, but I was featured by a salon on the webapage for the contest for my elaboate sliky hair). But I had a big basement, a parent who'd buy me a kit because they always eished they did as a kid, literally no idea of how to play even a simple beat, and sadly a lifelong chronic pain condition that only ended up getting piled up with new problems. After my friends and i drifted apart and they lost interest in playing, I got involved in the underground scene nearby me, and it inspired me to play more. I jammed with songs i liked and grew a bit, but then i moved and haven't had a place to set up my kit in a while. Then i got a cheaper e-kit that was frustratingly limiting, and my medical problems got worse. But I used my contacts from some great tourists drummers I know whove played in some bigger bands to study at shows and ask for pointers, used RUclips videos to slowly work on rudiments and ideas i never knew existed, and used my disabilities and simple kit as a way to learn workarounds or focus on what I could do. Shortly after getting my e-kit, I went to a small show where one of my favorite drummers was playing some of his solo guitar and vox stuff, and an admittedly rude (i was uncharacteristically drunk) comment landed me on the opening song for the headliner with just a snare. No idea what the song was or his music, just a snare and hi-hat stand with a tambourine on it it, and it went surprisingly well without losing the beat and even fitting in some fills and tricks I thought id be afraid to try. Now im doubling down on practice for about 6 months, playing music outside genres i even listen to, focusing more on certain techniques, and even starting to form a band. I have a long way to go, but i see videos like "practicing daily for two years with lessons" and im genuinely shocked when i think "I could do that and so much more." I have my off days, but i played a few songs at an unrehearsed tribute for a passed friend, including three of us on as standing basses and toms - something ive never remotely tried - as well as three songs with just a vocalist thats never performed before and had half-lost their voice. All on a foreign kit, which felt odd after only playing an e-kit for about a year. And there were genuine compliments from musicians i admire that used to be in the actual band, as well as people who's musical opinions i really respect. If i can do it, almost anyone can. Turn your weaknesses into strengths, practice what you can, and keep branching out. Im a long way from some of the better drummers, but also pleasantly suprised when i hear a popular rock somg i haven't heard in a few years and focus on the drums to think "thats it, there was barely anything to that and have sold out atenas for decades." Look at ACDC; very similar in almost every song while being generally simple, but so iconic and powerful by playing to his strengths to the point that nobody does that kind of drumming the same. Good luck to everyone, and keep going. Even with the simplest of percussion setups you can make something amazing and unique. Don't get caught up comparing yourself or thinking you're not close enough to get it any time soon; there's always something new to learn or a new perspective that can set you apart.
I've been a drummer for 20 years now. There are kids less than half my age who have twice my ability. I've never mastered the double stroke in all this time, regardless of the countless hours I've spent behind the kit. Talent is a thing. And that's okay. I enjoy playing, I'm rock solid in the studio and I'm in demand.
True talent on drums is the ability to play MUSIC...not speed or the total amount of notes one can fit in a single measure. Anyone can "masturbate" on any instrument. True talent is the ability to recognize, play, and move people with MUSIC. The rest is athletic, not artistic.
I become good in all my stuff by knowing myself so I can gain. If you have doubt to yourself you can’t practice, no skill no talent . I can be great drummer like Beatles,Weezer drummer.
If you look at drumming as art It's easier to understand. Some people can pick up a pencil and immediately draw something beautiful with no formal training whatsoever. While others take art classes for 4-years years and never reached the level of the first person. Some people have it. But regardless, just enjoy it. You don't get a badge at the end. It's not a competition.
Our capabilities, spanning diverse domains like mathematics, musicality, and athleticism, are undeniably influenced by our genetic inheritance. Whether it's the numerical aptitude to solve complex equations, the harmonious talent to compose melodies, or the physical prowess to excel in sports, our genetic makeup plays a significant role in shaping these abilities. Moreover, the intricate interplay between our genes and environment molds our traits. While genetics provide the foundational blueprint, environmental factors such as upbringing, education, and experiences also contribute to the development and expression of our abilities. Indeed, it's challenging to pinpoint any aspect of human behavior or skill that doesn't bear the imprint of our genetic composition. From cognitive functions to personality traits, genetics intertwines with every facet of our being, enriching the tapestry of human diversity and potential.
Hey thanks Nate! I often wondered about how they did that study thanks for the breakdown. Also it would seem like family support would play a role in some way like getting the kid I person lessons in the first place.
As Steve Gadd once told me, "While you were out playing baseball and getting laid, I was in my room practicing."
Yeah practicing the skin flute
You know him?
There was a South Park episode that actually hit that nail on the head
The one where the girls made an attractiveness list for the boys
Basically the weird/ugly/derp kids who don’t have a huge social ecosystem who also have the propensity to obsess over a certain thing do that thing a shitload
I’ve noticed that before you’re successful you’re “deluded” and after you’re “tenacious/talented/genius”
@@Djacob_ lmao you sound like a lame
@@nosfy and you’re an old fart
Don't get discouraged by watching El Estepario Siberiano. he has clearly said that he was suffering from depression after he couldn't finish school and other stuff. he started playing drums as a way to overcome depression. he would practice 8 hours a day 24/7 for years. he didn't get out of his house. He has done more than 10,000 hours of practice
That's not correct. He was already a professional drummer before dropping out of Uni and becoming popular online. He got depressed because he was fired from his band, which was his job at the time. He decided to record all the progress he had achieved and that's when he got famous.
I would rather say « don’t get discouraged by watching El Estepario Siberiano, he is exceptional. Thousands of people have been making a living out of playing the drums without having 10% of his technical proficiency. You don’t need to be in the top 0.1% to do what you love and even make a living out of it. »
Plus every drummer has their place Ringo has a bigger influence. But that being said I love El Estabariano
Thanks Nate!
"8 hours a day 24/7" ?? Not sure you understand what 24/7 means my dude!
Talent is front loaded.
It makes an enormous difference at the start of journey, and asymptotically less as you approach the end.
Purely theoretical example: take two ten year old kids who have never touched the drums, one who has a natural affinity, and one who has very little affinity. One learns a simple 4/4 beat in minutes, while the other takes hours. Have them practice properly (assume both practice as ideally as is possible) for four hours a day, five days a week. At the end of the first month, there will be a continent between the two subjects. At the end of the first year, a chasm. At the end of the first five to ten years, a noticeable gap. At the end of the fiftieth year, the better drummer will likely come down to your subjective judgement.
Natural affinity grants a head start (which is magnified when you start very young), but at the end of the day, it's hard (and smart) work that gets you to the destination.
true, though I think I covered this in the video. In real life, that second kid id going to wash out of drums long before they get to music school imho.
Best comment about this topic I’ve read. I 100% agree with you. Now I don’t need to watch the video to feel like I agree with someone else. Sorry Nate
I tend to agree. I first took piano lessons when I was very young and although I never realised it at the time, I probably had a natural affinity for it. Now many years later attempting to learn the drums as an adult, I realise the unfair advantage I would have given myself if I'd started learning drums in my formative years also. I now consider my drumming ability to have 'caught up' to my piano playing ability - but it has taken many more years of practice and dedication to the drums, than I ever remember spending on my piano practice as a kid. The speed of how quickly you can pick something up before moving onto the next learning task is huge. I suspect that all the people in the study who completed 10,000 hours of practice saw significant progress in that time. A less talented person putting in just as much effort would probably have given up well before the 10,000 hours, as they didn't make progress fast enough and got disillusioned. I like to think of talent as 'untapped potential'. Everyone has a measure of talent - but they need to put in the work to realise that talent. So just because someone has talent it doesn't mean they don't have to work for it. But likewise, someone who is less talented may have to put in more work to attain the same level of playing ability.
Source? I’m genuinely curious.
@@8020drummer There also has to be a personality that is satisfied with mastering a single thing....a real passion. I LOVE playing the drums with my band on stage, but to be honest, I'm never going to be Eloy or Sibiriano or Gadd.....I just enjoy too many things to really dedicate myself to becoming a master at any one of them. I see this in my career as an attorney as well.....There are going to be folks that become experts in their field and become known as the go to attorney for federal construction contracts, or supreme court appeals.......that aint me! Im perfectly fine with this by the way! Im completely satisfied to be a "good enough" drummer with a gazillion other interests! Which is EXACTLY your point around minute 12 of this video!
I started playing around 20 years old. Now 38, I feel like I’ve progressed a decent amount but when I first started, I started alone and picked up drums quickly and got so many compliments from friends and fellow drummers saying I had the talent for it. While I felt proud of myself and motivated I think it did me more harm than anything else, and it was because I felt I didn’t have to really put in work to get a whole lot better. Anyway, at the time there was a kid who’d been playing for about 3 or 4 years before I started, now he practiced all the time, everyday I would see him with his pad and practicing paradiddles or triplets and thought “maybe I should be doing that too” but I didn’t. Anyway, fast forward to 18 years later, he plays for an orchestra, reads music, knows about 3 other instruments and I can humbly say he’s at where I think I should be by now but he put in the hours to something he’s passionate and I didn’t. Not to take away that I don’t love playing drums, I think the issue with me has always been putting enough dedication to the craft and lacking discipline when it comes to practicing things and I feel my playing now is clearly a result of that mindset. Really enjoyed this video!
Yes. I fell into that trap, too. But hey, I'm 60 and back on the pads!
I'm a wannabe drummer, so I watch your videos. I have an interesting view on this topic. The first time someone asked me to pat my head and rub my tummy simultaneously, I did it effortlessly. I then switched hands and did it. I could also alternate clockwise or counterclockwise. I could even pat my tummy and rub my head and do all the combinations. That's natural talent. Yet I believe all but a few with deliberate practice could do it too.
I went to high school with someone that played in the NHL, was drafted #1, and failed miserably. Doug Wickenheiser. Look it up. Doug had a mustache and was fully grown at 14. He had a genetic advantage that made him a world class player up until he was 19 when he joined the NHL. Natural talent got him there, but then he ran into others that practiced more than he did. If you read the story about Wayne Gretzky, he spent thousands of hours practicing. He wasn't a fully grown man at 14. I don't know if Wayne was naturally gifted with above average hand eye coordination because he was so focused on hockey, he didn't do anything else. Wayne of course is considered the greatest ever in hockey.
If Doug had practiced more instead of relying on natural talent, I think he'd have had a far better career. There are four types of people in ALL endevours with where I crudely demonstrate where they would fall into a gradient curve.
Talent + Quality Practice = Top 5%
Quality Practice Alone = Top 20% to Top 5%
Talent Alone = Top 40% to Top 20%
Little talent + low quality practice = Everyone else
No matter how much talent you have, quality practice will get you into the top 1/3 or higher and that is enough to be happy and successful
I was with you until you gave the matrix like it was foregone. It’s an interesting hypothesis, and largely agrees with my suspicions, but we can’t really say for sure until it’s been studied
10,000 hours noodling in front of TV < 2,000 hours focused practice
Side note -- I have spent over 50,000 hours trying to sleep and I'm still complete garbage at it.
Really nice video man, and great topic.
I completely agree with the fundamental theme that all of these ways include time playing your instrument 10,000 hours.
I like to think great players learn how to learn...Environmental factors can help provide that at a young age (like JD Beck getting mentorship from Sput). I would assume the best spend 10,000 hours learning to practice well. Then they spend another 100,000 hours learning to play well. Of course these numbers are just arbitrary...and there are so many different ways to become great. However, I feel its important to highlight how we spend that 10,000 hours. I remember Benny Greb speaking on the importance of focused practice vs unfocused. A crude reduction of what he said is that an hour of focused practice was (basically) better than 5 hours of noodling in front of a TV. He admitted that you can train your muscles passively while focusing on other things, but as musicians the connection to the brain is the most important part to train! Love that idea.
Always love your videos and tone as a voice in the drum community! Thanks Nate!
Thank you for saying what I was thinking but saying it so much better. You’re absolutely right. Focussed practice is a massive factor combined with the right tools and understanding of how to practice.😊
@@ianmclean5541 Heck yeah dude thanks for the acknowledgement! I love this topic!
When I'm learning something new, I have to focus. After that I will often practice the thing and allow myself to multitask. It depends on the goal. A good deal of practice is just repetition and working the muscles & eventually getting to the point you can play things without conscious thought
Dude! I grew up a couple miles from O'Hare in Chicago. I feel your pain. Every phone conversation had at least one "hang on, there's a plane... ok go ahead." Great vid with an important message. At the end of the day, what difference does it make? Are you having fun practicing/playing? Are you getting better? Then keep going, talent or not.
I think the strong form of the "talent fundamentalist" argument is that only talented people can actually get better. Which makes it a bit chicken/egg, but "if you're getting better" probably means you're already talented, so, as you say, keep on keeping on
Talent definitely plays a role. I’ve been playing for 54 years and I can’t play like Serbiano. I ‘m more than 40 years older than him! I’ve practiced at least 10,000 hours, probably more. Plus I play gigs two to 5 times a week. I consider myself to have had a small amount of talent. I played gigs at 13 years old. Also as a teacher I can tell you 85-90% Of the students I get have little or no ability. I try as best I can to encourage them anyway. One last thing, I’ve met guys almost never practice and they sound almost as good as i do. How do you account for that ?
@@jeffdecker8665 This times 1000! As a bucket list I took up drums at age 59 three years ago. I have a great instructor who is as patient as Job and gives me realistic, yet challenging, exercises.
The truth of the matter, however, is that even with an hour of practice a day I am lamentable. I can do basic rudiments and basic beats and fills but it is astounding how "ungifted" I am musically. I can't even play Wipeout!
Yet I see local 7th and 8th graders who are FAR more advanced than I am. I know, don't compare oneself to others and I really enjoy this, but I am also perfectly frank with my instructor that I never would have had the drumming "it" even if I had started early in life. Heck, I can barely keep a great WITH a met!
My point? That I lean very far to the idea that talent is very real and no amount of work can get past that. I have a surgeon friend who has litte free time in life yet can play the clarinet like a seasoned session musician.
@@jeffdecker8665 I would think the amount one has played is irrelevant if ones musical goal and direction is different from Serbiano for instance when comparing ones playing to his. Is it possible that if one practiced the things he did using the same regiment one would have the same result the variable being the time it takes to reach the same results? Not really sure how you'd quantify something like that but it would be interesting to compare 2 willing students with the same drive but different talent levels.
I consider talent as ones speed of understanding and or ability to accomplish a task / reach a goal. I feel talent will get you to a deeper level of ability quickly but it seems that one will run into a wall, no matter the talent level, that necessitates further understanding and practice to get beyond that plateau.
I suppose talent could be associated with feel in subjects like this and that might be linked more to physical attributes than learned through practice, at least on a fundamental level, for music?
So the question I'd ask myself is, do the guys that almost never practice actually get any better or do they just kind of hover around the same level correlating to the amount they play.
@@frumpywonkmeyer4518 I agree with your assessment. You are right that talent is the ability to learn something quickly and not too painfully😝 . If something is too hard to learn, most people will quit, I see it all the time.
Also, you’re right about comparing oneself to someone else. When I think about the types of practicing I’ve done over the years, it wasn’t always about being technically amazing. Some of it was reading or coordination or music theory, or odd times etc…. So I think what you practice to reach your goals is as important as how much. 20 years ago I didn’t know it was even possible to play double strokes with your feet. Now it’s done all the time. If I spent the next 10 years practicing that I could probably do it. Is it worth it. I don’t know?
Spot on for the most part. I think ANYONE can practice drums enough to get technically proficient to a level where they could play professionally in most genres. But there are what I like to call "intangibles" - and those are qualities to a drummer's playing that are unique to them alone. They can't be taught. And those intangibles are something that usually emerge pretty early in a player's journey and become part of a signature playing style. And then there are matters of having feel and groove - and that is having a sense of how a song flows and ebbs and being able to naturally sense when to play ahead or behind the beat. Not every drummer can do this well no matter how much they practice. Listen, there's a reason that no one can play Bonzo's drum parts quite as well he did - the dude had an almost supernatural sense of groove. And I've seen high-profile drummers who are as studied and well-practiced as someone could be still struggle with this. And those are the guys who sound like a drum machine. Perfect meter and mechanics with no sense of feel and dynamics at all. One such drummer who shall remain nameless just lost his job in a high-profile prog-metal outfit to the original drummer because of this. And that original drummer has amazing groove and feel despite being much less technically-proficient (although to be fair, he's no slouch there either). So, yeah talent helps - it's not a lie. I think it can be the difference between someone who has studied and practiced to the point of technical perfection vs. someone who has developed a dynamic and instantly identifiable signature sound and style. Both of those types of drummers can be very successful - but who are you going to remember?
I’ve been playing drums on an off for 15 years. I recently found your channel and I can honestly say that your videos have leveled up my drumming in just a few months. You’ve helped me break down and tie together some of the techniques and ideas I’ve been dancing around for years. Having more fun than ever. Major thanks, will continue to watch and support your great work!
I am 65yo and am convinced that any endeavor for a man is “10% inspiration and 90% perspiration”.
If I had known this in 1974 I would’ve PRACTICED instead of running around PRETENDING to be so talented.
I ended up building hardwood stairs and giving up drums. Regrets? Sure. Unhappy? Not a chance!
Love your channel, Nate, been a sub for years 👍
What about for a woman?
@@BeatKasterG sorry, I include women also, my bad 😣
You can still return to drums and play music just for fun. It's never too late to play music.
My father always said to have the passion to work hard and persevere for your dreams is a talent all on it's own
The most inspiring part of this video is the last 30 seconds. KEEP GOING!
Natural talent in music means good ears, perception, intelligence, musicality, picking things up easily, duplicating and remembering parts fast. There are people who definitely have all that and there are others who don't (as much, anyway) and have to struggle much more. That's one part of the argument.
The other part that relates to the 10,000 hours rule is also controversial. There's a difference if one has open minded instructors who can help efficiently a student get there; What are they are going to study in those 10,000 hours? There's mindless practice and there's fruitful practice that helps one overcome their limitations, improve technique, enhance their creativity and develop musicality.
Especially in drumming all that applies more, since the drumset is less than 150 years old.
That being said, things are much better now than 25 years ago, so Siberiano has a point; we are just lazy.
Watch Yoyoka! She was better than most drummers as soon as she got muscles enough to hit the drums. She is on another level than "RUclips drummers" that edit their audio/videos to be impressive
"But I love to play"! is the same as, but I love archeology, but I love science, but I love driving, I think we know what we love and that's where talent comes in. It's meant to be.
There’s no question some people are naturally much better than other. A analogy; Some people can throw a ball 90 mph +, while most people could practice for a lifetime, but would never get close.
Have been a bassist for 15 years, but always wanted to play the drums. Started playing drums at age 36, and enjoying it to the full. I am no way near being pro, but I love it❤
Talent is not a lie. I've taught several people different disciplines. Some people have that spark that you can nurture, some people don't. Simple as.
you're already a really talented player, but beyond what you say being true, I really think that is useful and valuable, and that you have think about it to be like this, and this really talks a lot about you as a person. Glad to follow you, man.
What about little johnny who at age 4 or some stoopid age rocks up and plays chopin (i know instrument difference) better than those who put in the hours? Or is that where being a prodigy comes into play?
There’s no denying natural talent but it’s hard not to notice how much Nathaniel has improved since he began 80/20……a lot…
This video was very topical for me, and I appreciate you taking the time to compile all of this research! Thank you, and great video! You are incredibly talented and appreciated.
Human beings are just highly variable, unfortunately for many of us.
Gaussian distributions like the curve you showed are not how we are actually distributed.
I know with IQ, for example, there are many more outliers and less people in the middle.
But we normalize the distribution because it's more PC, and in line with the "you can be whatever you set your mind to" mantra we are fed since preschool.
In reality, some people are just insanely intelligent, and many aren't even close to the middle and will never have that kind of ability no matter what they do with their time.
If this is true for brain power as well as physical abilities, then it's certainly going to apply to everything in between.
But the good news is, IMHO, that creativity is something much harder to quantify, this is crucial to anything that involves the arts or music.
We don't just want to watch robots with chops, we want to see people who can make us feel something.
A drummer watching other drummers is likely to feel something much more based on talent than the average person, who is going to feel something much more closely related to the overall fit to the rest of the music.
Ever notice that in a lot of our favorite songs growing up that the drums are just basic?
People like Ringo get a lot of criticism, but the Beatles made some of the best songs of all time and rarely does anyone say they needed better drumming (unless it's a drummer saying it).
I would also bet that a lot of these super talented drummers, if sat down next to each other, would all be able to play stuff that the others couldn't.
In other words, there's just a natural piece of "you" that develops over time and can't be imitated.
This is like how guitar players say "it's all in the fingers" because even playing the same notes, there's always a quality of the individual that can't be copied.
Even when it feels like a struggle to make progress, we are developing that unique style that will eventually define us.
I'd encourage everyone to keep at their creative endeavors, although NONE OF US know where the world is going.
Things are changing so rapidly right now with technology that the music industry is being overturned as we speak. So is every creative field.
But humans are what makes art valuable, so we should hold on to that.
My guess is that our entire perception of what is valued and why is going to have to be rewritten.
And we as artists SHOULD NOT GIVE UP THE FIGHT!
There is already an AI that can write and play better drum licks than most of us ever will.... but will we value that?
Or is it better to value music because there was human being who lived and suffered and persevered and became inspired all behind it?
To me, the answer is obvious!
I'm currently on a mission. I do 4 hrs a day 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon 6 days a week. My son is 4 years old. The way I see it, when he is a teenager I will be a focking beast behind the kit!!! #cantstopwontstop
Your feel here. Is.... Perfection. Love the Byzantz cymbals. My latest favorite
Very interesting video. I always wondered about this topic, and also about myself and this. 60 years has passed since I started, and took minimal lessons. But I did put in tremendous effort in , in my teens. Turned pro at age 17, and after 5 years did manual labor day job and only played weekends. People have always told me how good I am, but because this is my field, I actually know that I am fair, maybe just a bit better than fair. I had the 10,000 hours in likely around age 22-25. I think my talent was minimal, just determination got me here, retired from day jobs, and pro drumming again for the past few years. I am almost 69 btw. I love playing my drums and expressing myself through music. It is still fun, and I am happy that I never quit.
Here’s the thing: someone’s 10K hours who is super talented does not equal a less talented person’s 10K hours. Case in point: I know drummers who have progressed a lot and now are crushing, but who had their basic pocket and groove and speed at a very young age. They never had to spend hours working on microtime or single stroke technique. They “naturally” had the ear-hand-foot coordination to play on time and in the pocket - it comes out the way they hear it in their head. So every hour I’m spending on micro time and groove, they’re working on something else with time and groove as givens. Also, they can be away from the instrument for months or years due to illness or personal issues, but whenever they sit down, cold, having not touched a drumstick in forever, they are annoyingly more musical, creative, and play with crushingly good pocket than most drummers who have been practicing that whole time. Also check out Aron the Bassist or Miles the Music Kid - they haven’t even been alive 10K hours.
I probably have 10k in but I've been at it 30 years. I am definitely not an expert or an elite. I still get paid for what I love. There isn't any need to compare myself to anybody else. I'll do what I do and the other guy can do what he does. As long as people are enjoying what you're doing it's all good.
"good enough to enjoy it..." Many, many, many! years ago, in high school, I was 'good enough' to play in a "rock/cover band" and actually have gigs and save my sanity. Since then, (60 years!) I've lost some / gained some - but always the key has been: "good enough to enjoy it." Great 'bottom line,' Nate. Thanks for posting.
I started playing 3 months ago at 43 years-old. I am busy as hell, but definitely find that the more I can put in, the more I get out.
I am never going to try to aspire to Siberiano levels because I know I don’t have that kind of time to put in.
I find that setting modest goals has been really good for me: hold a groove in time with a click, work on limb independence etc.
All of that being said, even in the last couple months, I have gone from feeling uncoordinated as a slug to actually being able to intersperse 16ths on the kick while keeping steady 8ths on the hats. This is huge-and a big motivator to see where I can potentially grow from there.
At the end of the day, I just fucking love playing. Best midlife crisis ever.
Hah! I was going to mention "Outliers" even before you got there - but for a different reason. If you read the first chapter about young developing hockey players, you can see that there are structural barriers and gates that dictate what's available to upcoming talent. Likewise, at least in my experience, those kind of breaks came to an otherwise average talent level player. I was a novice drummer, but hanging around a drum shop, 2-3 hours every day. I happened to be there when the sales guy gets a call. "No, sorry, I can't...hey hold on a sec..." he asks me if I could sub for a country band the next night. (I'm not even a country fan!) Of course I said "yes!" Then I panicked. I was "good enough" to do about 5-6 gigs with this band. A few years later, I auditioned for one of the biggest rock bands in my metro area. It turns out my "country chops" is what got me the gig. We ended up moving to New York City and worked with some of the biggest names in the business.
Basically, I'd say 10,000 hours works because, during that time, you're bound to create other opportunities that (hopefully) demand more of your talent. And part of your skillset is rising to the occasion.
Fast forward about 20 years, and I hadn't touched a drum kit in over a decade. One brief phone call from an old friend, and it turns to a local gig, which turns into a regional act. With all of the RUclips videos out there, watching elite drummers is once again extremely intimidating. I hooked up with a well-regarded drum teacher who immediately told me "don't forget to enjoy where you're at." That was a huge key. And so now, it's back to the pads, and progress is slow, but I measure it, and it's forward. One thing's for certain. I'm not getting worse.
Siberiano is the one drummer I can't watch, he makes me irrationally angry, like watching a dude casually fly like a bird while telling you the only reason you can't is because you haven't tried hard enough. I'm 47, I've probably done 20k hours behind the kit at this point but I never got good. Of course practice is important but unless Siberiano has literally put in double the hours of everyone else, there must be more to his playing than just practice.
no offense, but I could almost *guarantee* you haven't done 20k hours of *deliberate practice* behind the kit. Or else you're like a 3 sigma outlier. I think people think they have for a few reasons:
-gigs, which aren't the same as deliberate practice
-practice with long periods of interruption
-they're actually just overestimating it
Big disclaimer - I could be wrong. But I'd encourage you to actually pull out a piece of paper (which can be virtual) and try to calculate how many hours of deliberate, high-quality practice you've actually put in. I did this in my 20s and it was like a quarter what I'd assumed it was.
@@8020drummer Practice with long periods of interruption are great imo. Your mind and body uses that time to digest and internalize the things you're working on. Especially for independence, four hours or practice over the course of two days can go a lot further than four contiguous hours. Of course, more hours are generally more better, but if we're keeping the number of hours constant anyway, the less contiguous hours win more often than not.
@@JeffGraw when I said "long periods of time" I was talking about years. I've had many students who would practice for a few months, then let it fall by the wayside for years.
@@8020drummer Fair enough, that makes sense. I'm glad we expanded on that, since an onlooker could misinterpret and think "I should avoid small breaks."
Quality of practice is more important than quantity of practice
It took me a while to catch on what was happening with those flights lol, 🤣 1st time watcher subscribed, much love
The struggle is real! Great video bruh. We are all here for the long one and the deepy 😂
Talent is how much you're into whatever it is you're doing that makes you invest the time to master it.
Such a thought provoking video (again)! I'm 51. If i'd seen myself doing what i now do as a teenager, I'd be so disappointed; still playing with the same concert band i started when i was 8 with euphonium, then switched to drums & percussion at 15. Never "made it", still trying to achieve a smooth double-stroke roll, even moved back to my hometown early on. On the other hand; lifetime of musical friendships, competency to play anything i want within that context (on drums and percussion) and occasionally conducting both concert and percussion ensembles without much formal training at that. Spreading the good word of teaching percussion via the local PAS chapter regularly.
And enjoying every second of it all. The 15-year old me would have his jaw on the floor seeing my double-stroke roll. A 20- or 30-something me would find it beyond incredible how i lock-in with some tuba/ bass players i've been playing with for 30+ years. This is a path of mastery we will never master. We get better, yes, and striving to get even better and getting to know the most amazing people in your musical life along the way is the point of it all.
Keep up the good work, Nate!
Thanks Nate for the longy and deepy.... My thoughts? I am going to be 63 this year. I started working professionally at 18 years of age. For the bulk of my life I have only played drums to make a living. In 2000 I started a small company not related to music as a side hustle. I had always heard the 10,000 hours to be an expert, but I thought that meant both practicing and also performing and gigging. So in my 45 years of drumming I considered myself an expert, but I never did the 8 hour a day practice routine Weckl or Gavin Harrison did to make them in my opinion two of the greatest drummers of all time. Now, at my age, I have more of a passion to play then I ever did as a younger man. At that time I was working full time at Disney World and freelancing. I always felt like a reasonably big fish in a medium pond. I always knew had I gone to New York or LA without having gone to North Texas or Berklee I would have in all likelihood been sent packing. So I feel I have enough talent to have alot of people tell me I play great, and I see improvement when I practice new things, but I am light years from being a Vinnie, Larnell, or a thousand other guys. At my age, I wonder, do I just resign myself to the fact I may never get there? Do I just strive to be the biggest fish in my medium pond? There are so many variables about this topic. I always enjoy your videos. You get deep and I like that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I invite you to check out my playing if you have not already and share your thoughts with where you, a total stranger think I am at. Maybe I suck, and I am kidding myself. Thanks Nate!
few thoughts - comparing yourself to others is literally worthless. (gaining inspiration from others is valid.) If drumming is a means to an end of producing pleasure in your life, wouldn't it make more sense to try to exceed the threshold at which you can enjoy playing every time you sit down? I've seen a lot of coaching students who said similar things, then we fixed some basic things to get them out of a rut, and they were on a different trajectory. But also with a changed understanding, because we'd filled in a lot of the territory between them and, say, larnell. But I also say take anybody who thinks they'll "never have what it takes", and let them practice an hour-a-day for ten years, and 99% of them will have washed out, or just done it in fits-and-starts, and the other 1% will be killer players.
im another random guy and i know you didn't ask but I genuinely think you sound very good. I hope the youtube algo is kind to you in the future. Dont take this as an insult or something backhanded, I just don't see you playing anything that makes me go HOly eff that is incredible. its just all very well played exactly how it should be to fit the music and that's fine. It just lacks the wow factor that would make you stand out amongst all the other good players. there's no obligation for you to do that its just that I think the internet rewards ppl who do flashy stuff
@@efafe4972 I certainly don't take offense. Was this a comment on the talent subject, or just a meditation on my youtube success visavis my flashiness? I think flashiness is probably more important for stuff like tiktok or insta. Siberiano is the biggest solo drum influencer, and maybe the biggest influencer of all, and a lot of it is down to his "wow factor". But we could both name youtubers who are on the "less flashy" side who have bigger audiences than I do, and one who IS a flashy player, who I think can credit his humor and filmmaking style more than his flashiness. IN any case, I'm working toward being more of a chopper - to the degree it comports with my voice - not necessarily because it will increase my influence, but just because I intrinsically want to play like that.
@@8020drummer i was talking to the original commenter LOL. its not as cut and dry as i made it sound. there are obviously a lot of other ways of standing out as you mentioned. you for example are a great educator, some guys have incredibly deep pocket others have a unique vibe etc.
our original commenter just plays along to tracks. I was mainly trying to say that if you're just trying to get noticed playing along to stuff being awe-inspiringly good is the way to do it. even that isn't just flashiness. probably wasn't a good word but whatever
@@efafe4972 was this reply directed to me and my post or to Nate? If it was directed to me I appreciate the comment. My intent is not to be the new wow guy on the web with tons of flashy chops. I think my focus is more on showing the web that a 63 year old guy can play a lot of music from big band to broadway to pop and rock. I play charts I transcribe note for note and just try to perform it musically. Not because I think playing something from Wicked or the Woody Herman will make me an internet sensation, but might help someone looking for a well rounded solid drummer for any number of projects. If your comment was directed at Nate, I think he is a pretty flashy player who does things I definitely can’t do. He put a lot of time in the woodshed to master a lot of control on the kit which I am sure translates into him sounding musical on gigs. At my age I am looking to be the best player I can be, but realize the likely hood of me taking over the drum chair for Kansas, the Big Phat Band or a national Broadway tour of something isn’t real likely.
Siberiano is right, but he puts the problem in a very simplistic way, it`s not about only the practice but how you were raised. I think this is more important than the practice itself. If you were taught how to deal with frustration, if you got positive feedback on your craft, if you were let to experiment and choose yourself what instrument you`d like to play, and even with all of these if you were not exposed to a vast variety of music all the practice in the world would only make you a good player but not a great artist. Again, practice is 50% at best. For me, talent is all these things combined minus the practice.
The difference in my opinion is passion. Some just have more passion for the instrument and progress quicker. Thank you for the videos brother.
largely agree. My thesis, I guess, is that passion is a big component of what we call "talent"
Siberiano is amazing on his style, he's fast, clean, very physical and he's clearly on a different level on those aspects of drumming. But I honestly think you just flow better. It's just my opinion though. Based on the fact that his style is similar to mine. I think he'd have a hard time replicating your playing style too.
Was that the CrashBox intro static at the beginning??
But what is “talent”, what is “advanced”, what is “professional”. My 2 cents will always be: analogously switch from drummer to lover - there’s more to it than clinical speed and pinpoint precision ✌🏻😆
Sure, but this is kind of the “layer 2” argument. Of course there’s the paradox of the subjectivity of art. We accept that. But within that there’s still a mostly-measurable skills gradient. We’ve all seen American idol. The people “good enough” had a variety of approaches but none of the rejects was turned down because they were ultra-good, but just in an u orthodox way. They mostly sucked.
@@8020drummer Haha: “They mostly sucked” - I’m not gonna argue with that 😂
But case in point, it’s no secret that EES doesn’t do it for me personally. Sure, he’s got some mad abilities, some extraordinary tricks, and he seems to be a really cool dude and he’s obviously brilliant at social media (but when it comes to progressive drumming I’m more into guys like Gergo Borlai & Thomas Pridgen).
But the case I’m arguing fits with your example of American Idol: I question that John Bonham would qualify, or Stewart Copeland, or Jeff Porcaro or Phil Rudd etc. etc.
I sincerely believe “talent” is something way deeper than learning advanced “effect playing”. And I for one is not sure that you just through practice can have the feel like the ones above. So, I probably disagree with EES on that point (and I actually think that he’s a good example of that). But on the other hand I do think (and then possibly agree with EES) that talent is in a sense the ability to be passionate. And being deeply passionate about something surly helps in any form of development. But is it enough without “talent”? I’m on the fence.
I’ve might have missed the mark with this comment and please disregard it if that’s the case. Just a somewhat bitter old drummer who’s tired of all the “effect playing” that gets so much attention and so often gets regarded as the pinnacle of drumming 👊🏻😅
@@flowerlandofjohn Glad to see someone mention Gergo Borlai - he's definitely put his hours in and he has crazy chops but more a m u s i c i a n with those chops than a technician. EES can put in ten thousand more hours but he'll never be as good as Gergo - not to my ears. No disrespect to EES - he's amazing !
@@sergeiblomquist7927 I totally agree! 🙏🏻🤩
Some people do get better quicker then others, for sure - but I think that has more to do with there problem solving skills. If you can figure out why something is a problem and slowing your practice down, you can fix it - which can reduce the amount of time you spend working on the issue.
Because you aren't going to get everything right at the start, in fact you probably will get a lot wrong, with or without a coach or teacher.
I’m not sure that generalizes to all disciplines tho. Some may come out of the womb with a passion for problem solving around math, and others for problem solving around rhythm
@@8020drummer I think you are absolutely correct.
I see this from sort of an opposite perspective - when you meet someone who has worked and worked for years, but never progresses. I've known guys who worked their asses off, but from the start on some level there was always some sort of key intuition just missing. It didn't matter how you explain to them, mentor them, challenge them, give them great tips, there just seems to be some fundamental level where their brains and body just didn't "get it" - beyond that, I don't know how much "talent" (if it exists) compares to the work, but some people do seem to just completely miss the "knack" for certain things no matter how hard they try.
I highly recommend checking out (former Lamb Of God drummer) Chris Adler's performance at the Modern Drummer Music Festival in 2005. There is a video of it on RUclips. What made it interesting was the portion where he spoke to the audience. He was very humble in his assessment of his own natural ability, but he touched on the most important part about playing drums: THEY'RE FUN!
Talent isn't a lie, but it's not enough. Sort of.
Case in point: me.
1. I used to play guitar, and had a little bit of talent, but I found I had to work hard to develop chops and play the things I had in my mind.
2. I've been doing visual art a lot longer, and it comes easy to me. I don't like to say I am talented, but other people have used that term to describe me.
The key element here is vision and drive/determination. When you are talented at something, it doesn't feel like "work" or exercise, but if you are talented without a vision, it doesn't add up to much. When you aren't talented the drive feels like work, but what makes the work worth it is the vision.
Luckily I feel like I have a purpose or vision in doing my visual art. Unfortunately I didn't have that with music. However, I am a better person for having gained a formidable understanding of how music works, and now I am making those skills (little that I have) to make soundtracks for my videos. I use what I have... the vision is what matters.You called it passion.
You are right.
It's much more complicated than these sound bites can grasp.
The reality is that human beings are highly more variable than a simple Gaussian distribution would suggest, but that is the easiest way to visualize, and so we do.
I know this is done with IQ.
They have to "normalize" the data to give it that smooth curve.
In reality, there are far more outliers than we realize (less people in the middle).
This is not how we want to think of things, but it's just the way it is.
Some people are insanely good at things, and many have no chance of ever bridging that gap.
Sadly, it goes against the "you can be anything you want" mantra that has been pushed into us since preschool
By the way, I'm like you...
Visual arts come easy, music, not as much.
But finally something clicked in drumming years ago where I felt a huge boost and at least jamming to my favorite music got much easier.
And what did I choose to do?
.....Learn guitar, lol!
Now that's the thing I'm pouring time into because i didn't want to live without melody under my fingers.
But I've got no idea if I'll ever be good enough to turn it into anything serious...
The hope is to eventually have my own audio visual art of some kind, where i can play to my own video creations
Talent or not, practice never made anyone worse!
Yes we all need to practice a lot… but aptitude is a real thing… & environment is a SIGNIFICANT factor… I often ask students what kind of music their parents listen to…
I started drumming lessons in 1993 when I was 13. I started being an OK drummer in my 20s, but only cause I didn't practice that much, and I didn't have the chance to play with other people either. And I didn't have a space where I could play all day. With time, and being in a band, I got better and better. Now I'm OK+ which is perfect for me, but I want to get a faster double kick technique, and after years of not having a good foot technique, it's like starting over for me, 30 years later. And it's so cool to see that I learn a lot faster now, than what I could have done 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Thank god that electronic kits are so affordable nowadays !!!!
unique
Lub ya man...been watching for years. I have to say, we are not just who we are in this moment; rather, we are a sum of all our experience. That is to say, this life is an opportunity to make the MOST of it and that "experience" travels with you. Everything you do in this life is carried over.
Honestly, if that was not the case and this is all there is...why not just party, pillage and go wild. It's because we KNOW innately to do the "right" thing. The goal is to overcome our animalistic instincts and evolve spiritually, intellectually and emotionally. We subconsciously know this to be true. For those who are in synch with life's mission, pursue greatness in everything that they do.
Some folks are old spirits who have come a long way and others are just figuring it out. As long as you are open to learning, accepting, growing and are selfless...you will get there in time. The magic come when you stop thinking you are "Just You" and realize you are anything and everything you imagine yourself to be.
Research suggests that genetic factors play a significant role in determining a person’s musical abilities. While environmental factors (such as exposure to music, training, and cultural context) also contribute, genetics can influence various aspects of musical aptitude.
The heritability of musical abilities (i.e., the proportion of variation attributed to genetic factors) varies across different musical skills. Some studies estimate that genes may account for approximately 40-50% of the variation in musical aptitude.
Which studies? Link them
@@8020drummer Medical geneticist Irma Järvelä of the University of Helsinki and her colleagues analyzed 224 family members who either were themselves, or were related to, professional musicians or active amateurs. The subjects were given standard tests of musical aptitude, such as the ability to discern differences in the pitch or duration of two tones. Järvelä found an overall heritability of nearly 50 percent. That is, nature rather than nurture accounted for almost half the observed differences in aptitude, helping explain why some subjects with no musical training scored at a professional level.
@@brandonrox10 interesting. How do strictly defined were the family relations? How much do we think the definitions of musical aptitude the scientists chose generalize to other forms of musical aptitude. How were the differences in skill between and among the “professional and amateur” family members accounted for such that the researchers were sure they were what an audition committee would consider above average. What were the P value and confidence intervals for this study of only 224 people. What I’m getting at is how do we know the correlations weren’t either (1) coincidence, (2) artifacts of stretching the definitions of skill on either end, or (3) environmentally transmitted rather than genetically. Bear in mind, I Agree with the conclusion. But if that’s the best you’ve got I wouldn’t bet a lot of money unless it’s replicated in a lot of places 😅😅
Typically, an assumption that 1000 hours of practice roughly equals 1 year of life seems to be more or less accurate. Unless the world is hit with a pandemic and goes into a global lockdown. Boy, did I put in at least 4 or 5 thousand hours of practice during 2020! 🤣
Natural talent is a myth. It’s all 100% hard word. Period. Stop worrying about everyone else. It’s a waste of time. Be the best YOU. X
I started late, at 15, but man, the obsession drove it for 10 years. There was nothing else I liked better than practicing and playing.
It has changed since then. Still play and practice new shit, but there isn't much new shit. I know my limitations, and still try to surpass them.
I guess when that stops, I'll be done.
I started out WAAAY worse than almost everyone I know. But, I have one thing most of them don't ... and that is a compulsive drive/ passion. I just DON'T give up. I practice 5-6 hours a day, and I JUST.DON'T. STOP. So what i lack in talent, I make up with an insatiable drive to be as good as I think that I can be. I also don't limit myself.. I see no reason why I can't be as good as any other drummer in the world. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I also don't think anyone else is better than me. (( I do realize that there are people better than me at certain things pertaining to drumming, but my point is that I feel there are things that I'm good at that will balance it out)
It has taken me years of doubt, crying, etc. I had trouble with clean rudiments for YEARS. maybe a a talented person would pick that up in months, but it took me years of practice. The times where I hated myself, I learned to use that to go back to the basics.
I truly think that if you lack talent, you can blur the line with obsession/ drive/passion.
Also, you can practice 10,000 hours, but if half of those hours you're thinking of something else, than you're wasting a lot of that time. You need to be driven to the point where you're listening to every single hit, and you're looking at every single movement.. and you're critical of everything single thing you do. It takes THAT to beat talent. I believe someone with passion can be better than anyone born with talent, because the passionate person will work harder. PERIOD!
The older I get (66) the more I realize it’s the journey not the destination (necessarily). Do I want to be great at things? Of, course! But do I have the time left to get there? I don’t know. So the journey becomes the inspiration and not the destination. Young people will not likely learn this lesson until much later in life. But if they can learn the lesson early, and learn to relish the process, then a happier human being they will become.
The ability to put in larger numbers of hours of deliberate practice is a talent. There is variability in how much a person can practice, how effectively that practice is and how long they can sustain that practice. It makes no sense to say to somebody "all you need is more deliberate practice" if they are already at the limit of how much they can practice already.
Raw talent definitely does exist. I believe the advantages of being talented are only realized cumulatively. Meaning, someone with raw talent may find they progress at a faster rate than everyone else and is therefore more incentivized and encouraged to continue. It's easy for someone to work hard, succeed and be completely blind to the inherent advantages they had which led to their success, fostering this idea that anyone can find output the same result with the same amount of work. Everyone's output is different. 100 hours of work will yield different results for different people, and that difference is generally determined by talent.
HWBT. Hard work beats talent. Jimi Hendrix carried a guitar around with him everywhere. Making breakfast... Playing guitar. Now... This is Jimi Hendrix were talking about. Soooooo.
Don’t sell yourself short. You’re at at least 30% nerdier than most channels.
Talent doesn't makes you have the gig , hard practice , good attitude and respect for the part is the key . I can't stand siberiano, pretentious as f*** and overplaying everything , he got talent and succes but no major band seems to give that guy a job for those reasons.
I am not sure that this is covered in any of the comments below or in the video. I think there is a missing, and very important part, which is in the intersection between personal skill, psychology, talent --- and a social aspect. The social aspect has to do with several factor also. But one of them is access to "tradition" or gifted teachers. This aspect is again a multi-dimensional one, but one might try to simplify it by talking about a "musical environment" as one part of it, and the "right teaching of certain technical aspects" on the other. Since we can not really change the social environment in a teaching situation as such, lets focus on the individual aspects. And the individual aspects are, as I see it, as follows: It is not enough to practice or to practice a lot. You have to practice "the right things". This goes for any instrument. If you don't know the circle of fifths you are more or less doomed as a bass-player. If you dont practice certain tunes and develop a way of figuring out the blues-form on a double-bass, you won't get very far. And on the drums: There are certain phrasings on the rudiments that you need to know, especially in jazz. There are a lot of cross-rhythms and polyrhythms to work on too. Still of course, the relation to a given tradition is important. But first of all, and this has been stressed by several guests on the show, you got to KNOW THE SONG. Music happens in a social environment. You can practice so and so much on your own. But by the end of the day, the great drummers we know of became famous not just for their drumming, but because their drumming was a part of a special sound of a special band.
I think there are more talented people in any field than the average person but you shouldn’t be discouraged to get better at it. I played drums in a punk band in my early teens and just got back into it at 43. I can’t explain how much its improved my life to pick it back up. I guess what I’m saying is just enjoy drumming. You don’t have to be the best but keep trying to improve every day and HAVE FUN
I have hopefully a legit question. Does kit size have anything to do with talent? Peart with his AMAZING kit, or Keith Moon smaller kit? El Estapario has a smal kit also
Innate abilities exist. That doesn't mean motivation and hours of practice don't help. Anyone who has taught lessons knows this
80/20. I love this Siberino master drummer. He's my. Favorite. He's the reigning BEAST. IM 69 years old play nearly every day. You're awesome 👍😎👍😎 too. I adore you're complete take on drums. Wide and deep. Keep up the work. You're awesome
Estepario is nothing...i repeat nothing without the ead10. Sure hes talented, but he uses social media and editing n such to sound cleaner than he is. When he does the one handed gravity blast rolls, they don't really sound that good and clean
It seems to me that talents like drumming are multi faceted.
Having an ear for differentiating fine differences in pitch and rhythm is important for any instrument. But so is having the fine motor skills to work the instrument easily.
Being able to easily generate creative ideas could be helpful in some cases, but in others, the ability to focus and stay on track would be better in others.
Then there is having the ability to woodshed on your own, without losing your mind. Many are most fulfilled working with and through others.
Which is another important personality trait to have.
And all these skills are inborn. Some people just are born with better motor skills, for example.
And people are going to want to do, and stick with, and find the most fulfillment, in what they are naturally good at. And will most likely be successful at.
But it’s not one thing alone that defines talent, or success, with an instrument or anything. Imho.
Talent can definitely help initially, as you said. A feeling of competence and progression is a good intrinsic motivator according to Self Determination Theory.Ryan, R. M., & Deci, E. L. (2000). Self-determination theory and the facilitation of intrinsic motivation, social development, and well-being. American Psychologist, 55(1), 68-78.
Are we on about *chops,* or playing that *sounds* great? I'm inclined to think the former is more about putting in the hours, and the latter more innate. Can creativity and musical sense be developed? I think so, at least to some degree, but don't claim to know the answer. So my conclusion: if you *enjoy* it, keep doing it, no need to be "great." Drummers with insane chops are a dime a dozen these days, but *fun* is *priceless.*
10,000 hours doesn't really prove anything. On the other hand, 10,000 focused repetitions of something will guarantee excellence... talent is merely the byproduct of hard work.
Fun fact: I love the way you use that SFX. That sound effect thing is called the “Chi Ching” its
Been played millions of times. The guy actually has a platinum record for it. I’m sure he spent 10,000 hours plus writing music. But it all it took was a 3 second cue to build the house on the hill.🥁🥁💯
The drummers who are involved in music at the highest level tend to have talent for music. Mel Lewis, Philly Joe Jones, Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro, Jim Gordon all had/ have incredible musical memory and musical IQ if you will. A bit like ring IQ and timing are what make the real difference in boxing. Just about anyone can put the hours in and look impressive on a practice pad or a punch bag, but so many of the modern day youtube sensations are just like circus acts to me- a wonderful spectacle and entertaining to watch, but absolutely zero music and they usually SOUND horrible! Anyway, not quite sure where I'm going with this- oh well yes: talent for music = great memory/ intelligence + early exposure and passion for music and then a love for your instrument. But talent on drums? No, or not really important (IMO!!)
"Talent" should be banned as a word. "Talent" is best described as "keen interest and bias towards a certain subject" which is basically saying: you have talent if you pursue your thing, if you don't you don't have any talent at all.
Nobody is born good playing drums... I was one of the last people who was supposed to be a composer/keyboard player or win any competitions... I didn't listen to music till I was around 12, I HATED music lessons in primary and middle school because I was bullied and I quit taking them...
But things still went different because I found out how much FUN i have just playing day after day after day... I started late, didn't take lessons... but I'm still holding my ground.
But I put in the HOURS! Thousands and thousands of hours.
Because I pursued what I enjoyed... was I talented? Not in the way people use the damn word... but in my way of understanding it? Yes.
It all factors in. Appreciation or love for music, encouragement, talent, practice, proper equipment, mentoring, technique, playing with others (below, equal to and above your level)… they all make and break musicians.
Maybe (probably!) you don't realize that you also have a "talent" for stand-up comedy, Nate! - And science communication, on a all-musicians level, not "only" on a drummer level as you humbly assumed. So, keep going with your deepy and longy science ramblings videos, please. They are extraordinarily helpful - and hilariously entertaining.
Talent is an excuse people throw out when they don't want to put handwork themselves. Nobody got out the womb able to do advanced polyrhythms or drumming at 200+ BPM. This extends to every single thing. It could be drawing, carpentry, coding, gaming, and cooking. Do you think Gordon Ramsay became a Michelin Star chef because of talent? No, he spent many years cooking and cooking and learning and cooking some more to become who he is today.
I think playing drums (which I do, and have for years) is only for talented people. I say this because I can move each limb independently (which most, if not all drummers can do). If you can't do this, I'm not sure that is something you can learn? If it is something you can learn, how much longer will that take? Will that limit to what you can and can't play? I don't know by why I have always been able to move my limbs independently, I've just always been able to. It's not something someone taught me. However, saying that, it did take years of practice to get to where I am. Do I have 10,000 hours of playing? I have no idea. I do know I've played for around 20 years so I'd like to think I'm well over b 10,000 hours. But, when I see a 10 year old playing songs it took me forever to learn, or ones I can't play, there's little doubt some are born with amazing talent.
I don`t know. The argument is a bit weak. First of all: you don`t define talent. I got the impression hat you link talent somehow to success or being famous in the musical world. But talent at the drums could also mean to be very creative because you have to compensate for your weaknesses. That drummer might be very successful in a specific realm. Like Ringo. Can he or she play anything from a technical standpoint? No. My guessing is: Siberiano, the drumming god form Spain, is technically a much better player than Ringo. But Ringo didn`t had to learn playing super fast or complex. Second, you can practice a lot but not very good or efficient. If you are going to music school, you have excellent resources to become elite. Or if your parents are a famous musicians; they will hook you up (buying instruments and records, paying for hours, introducing you to the right teachers (!) and people etc.). The others have to struggle or hustle. That is simple sociology. So what is talent?
You can have all of the talent in the world for something, but if you're a complete idiot you never going to know how to apply it. And if it's a physical activity like playing drums, if you're uncoordinated and a trainwreck physically no amount of talent is going to help you. What if Stephen Hawking was the most talented drummer ever? How's that gonna work out for him?
Talent is all well and good, but it can easily be surpassed with hard work. Give me 10,000 hours of playing and let's challenge Mr. Talent over there to a Tortoise vs. Hare race. Guess who wins? It's when the talented guys, the guys who it comes natural to, the guys who just speak it fluently before ever really learning go and work their asses off that you get amazing results.
Strength, dexterity, flexibility all factors, good rest and diet help to. Practice is a must either way, playing live helps a lot.
Jorge trained like 8 hours a day to become the Estepario we know. The guy’s vibe may fool you at first but the he is just as disciplined as the most dedicated Berklee academic out there.
I am 4 years older than him and I cannot play at 40-50% of his skill. And I blame it on focusing on my design and multimedia career. Honestly I have been enjoying drums by embracing the fact I kinda suck. It’s fun again.
I couldn't agree more with you more. Too much writing to explain it all but one thing that can't be argued is that we are not all born clones beginning from the same starting point. For drumming, innate talent is about imagination, focus and drive. That's the "knack" as you put it but it doesn't shortcut putting in the work even for the talented. The rest of us humans just have to put in the hard work to develop our abilities to reach our goals. One thing talent does not define is success. That's a whole other ball of wax.
What does ‘good’ mean though? Yes, some people might be able to naturally play a 4/4 beat when they start, and others might need to work at it. But that’s just natural mastery of motor/brain skills. We’re all wired differently. But being good is not just about physical facility. Just because I might be able to play in 19/8 with one hand while playing a samba with my feet and 7/4 with my other hand doesn’t necessarily make me ‘good’, irrespective of how long it took me to get there, and the role that ‘talent’ may or may not have had in facilitating the journey. There is more to being ‘good’ than just technical mastery. Music is much more nuanced than that. I think we’re coming at this from the wrong angle.
Me again. I worked on playing fast singles for years and years. I still can’t play them fast. I’m faster but not fast. I equate it with a Major League Baseball pitcher. Some guys can throw at 95 miles an hour most of us can’t. That’s why those guys make millions. I can’t play like Buddy, would love to, but after 54 years of playing it ain’t gonna happen! That’s talent.
Hard work trumps talent when talent runs out.
But
You have to be dumb and deluded to recognize natural resonance with activities.
Short people who want to be goalkeepers
Heavier people who want to be great climbers
People who don’t hear music who want to be producers
There is a natural deployment of attributes that align humans with activities. And then there is ego (I want)
Will and desire can get you very far into your own personal potential.
But ego and comparison will make you feel crap about yourself (comparison is the thief of joy)
I just discovered your youtube channel and i cannot stop watching more of your videos. really excited to put what you're teaching in practice! thank you for being available to do the videos and releasing those videos out to us! i appreciate you to the moon and back!
Do people ONLY listen to music made by the most skilled musicians? Of course not. Virtuoso playing doesn’t make music automatically enjoyable. I listen to plenty of things which are not technically impressive, there’s so many other factors involved. I might never be as successful as my musical influences, but I still believe I can write as good or a better song than they can. I no longer feel discouraged with my own level of skill for this reason.
I also think with efficient practice the 10000 hour rule does not apply. You can achieve greatness in less. Also stop saying talent is a Lie. I respect Estepario but his statement is flawed. He is not honest. There are 5 year old Asian kids playing Chopin and LIszt concertos. And someone is saying talent is a lie? Sure people can improve with practice but if a 5 year old can Play A chopin concerto surely he has not lived enough time to even get to 1000 hours of practice , yet alone 10000 or more. That means that talent+efficient practice + starting young = unbelievable greatness. This level of greatness is impossible to achieve if the prerequisites are not met.
Talent is relevant on the level of progress you get on the time you invest on your development. The "gifted ones" develop proficiency 4:08 faster but for those lacking the "gift" it all depends on the time you invest on your development. If you really want it you just have to invest on you own development.
I think, that there is something like talent, but it is heavily overestimated and mostly used to hide lazyness or lack of motivation etc...
If you want to be good, you have to practice. Years and decades. Even with talent. No way skipping this.
If someone tells you someting different, he`s a liar.
If you want to be good at something, you have to be aware of the goal and the way.
Or you will fail.
There is no trying, just doing.
There is never a shortage of info on the importance of practice and time practicing. However, it seems to me, many drummers forget about how physical the instrument is. So, in my humble opinion, working on your physical strength is super important to get better at playing it. Do these complex compound body movements and then notice how coordination and independence are easier to achieve. Do these movements explosively and train those fast twitch muscle fibers to be able to fly over the kit while pulling off different accents and patterns at high speed, and all that without breaking any sweat. Also note that these fast twitch fibers die off first (as opposed to slow-twitch fibers) as we age unless they are taken care of, so, if you are not super young and/or physical, you can invest there to improve your health, longevity, and your drum skills :) Do train your grip strength and attain amazing finger/Moeller and whatnot hand technique. Maybe a bit unconventional, but seems like working out maybe be the way to kill several birds with a single stone.
Innate talent definitely exists. We see virtuosos of every form overtaking their peers decades older and more practiced then them.
When i first started playing, I was maybe 14 and rarely practiced. Me and my pals were getting into music and wanted to do the local battle of the bands (we never even played or found a singer, but I was featured by a salon on the webapage for the contest for my elaboate sliky hair). But I had a big basement, a parent who'd buy me a kit because they always eished they did as a kid, literally no idea of how to play even a simple beat, and sadly a lifelong chronic pain condition that only ended up getting piled up with new problems.
After my friends and i drifted apart and they lost interest in playing, I got involved in the underground scene nearby me, and it inspired me to play more. I jammed with songs i liked and grew a bit, but then i moved and haven't had a place to set up my kit in a while.
Then i got a cheaper e-kit that was frustratingly limiting, and my medical problems got worse. But I used my contacts from some great tourists drummers I know whove played in some bigger bands to study at shows and ask for pointers, used RUclips videos to slowly work on rudiments and ideas i never knew existed, and used my disabilities and simple kit as a way to learn workarounds or focus on what I could do.
Shortly after getting my e-kit, I went to a small show where one of my favorite drummers was playing some of his solo guitar and vox stuff, and an admittedly rude (i was uncharacteristically drunk) comment landed me on the opening song for the headliner with just a snare. No idea what the song was or his music, just a snare and hi-hat stand with a tambourine on it it, and it went surprisingly well without losing the beat and even fitting in some fills and tricks I thought id be afraid to try.
Now im doubling down on practice for about 6 months, playing music outside genres i even listen to, focusing more on certain techniques, and even starting to form a band.
I have a long way to go, but i see videos like "practicing daily for two years with lessons" and im genuinely shocked when i think "I could do that and so much more."
I have my off days, but i played a few songs at an unrehearsed tribute for a passed friend, including three of us on as standing basses and toms - something ive never remotely tried - as well as three songs with just a vocalist thats never performed before and had half-lost their voice. All on a foreign kit, which felt odd after only playing an e-kit for about a year. And there were genuine compliments from musicians i admire that used to be in the actual band, as well as people who's musical opinions i really respect.
If i can do it, almost anyone can. Turn your weaknesses into strengths, practice what you can, and keep branching out. Im a long way from some of the better drummers, but also pleasantly suprised when i hear a popular rock somg i haven't heard in a few years and focus on the drums to think "thats it, there was barely anything to that and have sold out atenas for decades." Look at ACDC; very similar in almost every song while being generally simple, but so iconic and powerful by playing to his strengths to the point that nobody does that kind of drumming the same.
Good luck to everyone, and keep going. Even with the simplest of percussion setups you can make something amazing and unique. Don't get caught up comparing yourself or thinking you're not close enough to get it any time soon; there's always something new to learn or a new perspective that can set you apart.
I've been a drummer for 20 years now. There are kids less than half my age who have twice my ability. I've never mastered the double stroke in all this time, regardless of the countless hours I've spent behind the kit. Talent is a thing. And that's okay. I enjoy playing, I'm rock solid in the studio and I'm in demand.
God bless you. I've played drums since 1967 and I'm still learning and I'm stil not worth a shichonburger
True talent on drums is the ability to play MUSIC...not speed or the total amount of notes one can fit in a single measure. Anyone can "masturbate" on any instrument. True talent is the ability to recognize, play, and move people with MUSIC. The rest is athletic, not artistic.
I become good in all my stuff by knowing myself so I can gain. If you have doubt to yourself you can’t practice, no skill no talent . I can be great drummer like Beatles,Weezer drummer.
If you look at drumming as art It's easier to understand. Some people can pick up a pencil and immediately draw something beautiful with no formal training whatsoever. While others take art classes for 4-years years and never reached the level of the first person. Some people have it. But regardless, just enjoy it. You don't get a badge at the end. It's not a competition.
Our capabilities, spanning diverse domains like mathematics, musicality, and athleticism, are undeniably influenced by our genetic inheritance. Whether it's the numerical aptitude to solve complex equations, the harmonious talent to compose melodies, or the physical prowess to excel in sports, our genetic makeup plays a significant role in shaping these abilities.
Moreover, the intricate interplay between our genes and environment molds our traits. While genetics provide the foundational blueprint, environmental factors such as upbringing, education, and experiences also contribute to the development and expression of our abilities.
Indeed, it's challenging to pinpoint any aspect of human behavior or skill that doesn't bear the imprint of our genetic composition. From cognitive functions to personality traits, genetics intertwines with every facet of our being, enriching the tapestry of human diversity and potential.
Hey thanks Nate! I often wondered about how they did that study thanks for the breakdown. Also it would seem like family support would play a role in some way like getting the kid I person lessons in the first place.