Which Mic Should I Buy for Classical Guitar? Aston Starlight vs Audio Technica 4041 vs Neumann KM184
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Alex and Nathan team up to answer the classic question: which mic should I buy for classical guitar? We will take you through a few excerpts on each mic to help you decide which small diaphragm condenser microphone is right for your needs.
Timestamps:
Intro: 00:00
Context: 0:46
Mics used: 1:19
Technical details: 2:04
Disclaimer: 3:04
Guitars used: 3:29
Bach Aston Starlight Vintage: 4:07
Bach Aston Starlight Hybrid: 4:35
Bach Aston Starlight Modern: 5:01
Bach AT 4041: 5:28
Bach KM 184: 5:56
Etude Aston Starlight Vintage: 6:30
Etude Aston Starlight Hybrid: 7:03
Etude Aston Starlight Modern: 7:36
Etude AT 4041: 8:08
Etude KM 184: 8:40
Guernica Aston Starlight Vintage: 9:43
Guernica Aston Starlight Hybrid: 10:06
Guernica Aston Starlight Modern: 10:29
Guernica AT 4041: 10:53
Guernica KM 184: 11:18
Nascence Aston Starlight Vintage: 11:59
Nascence Aston Starlight Hybrid: 12:41
Nascence Aston Starlight Modern: 13:24
Nascence AT 4041: 14:08
Nascence KM 184: 14:53
Ending: 15:39
Nascence (from Journey): • Nascence (Journey Them...
Nathan's Etude in E Minor: nathanbredeson.ca/product/etu...
Mics tested:
Aston Starlight: www.astonmics.com/EN/product/...
Audio Technica AT 4041: www.audio-technica.com/en-ca/...
Neumann KM 184: en-de.neumann.com/km-184
Video editing by Nathan Bredeson
The Ottawa Guitar Trio is a Musicnotes.com Signature Artist: www.musicnotes.com/sheet-musi...
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Our EP, "Level 1," is available to download on Bandcamp: ottawaguitartrio.bandcamp.com...
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The Ottawa Guitar Trio is a dynamic Canadian classical guitar ensemble dedicated to promoting the versatility of the classical guitar and pushing the boundaries of the guitar trio medium with original compositions as well as arrangements spanning from classical music to film and instrumental video game music covers. 
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and thanks for doing this test! It was really fun to listen to and compare.
Glad you dug it for sure! It was a last-minute decision but turned out alright!
Thanks for doing this guys! Really informative and helpful
Thanks for taking the time to comment! It's encouraging to know that it can be of use to other players. Cheers!
This is so good - I wish I had a more technical video like this when I was first researching! Super informative and loved the audio demos as well! Gonna send this to people whenever they ask me about mics now =)
Sweet!! We just want this to be as helpful as possible! We'd be honoured if you do send it to those who need it. Thanks for watching. :)
Really liked the Audio-Technica AT4041, thanks a lot for the demo :)
You're very welcome, we hope more people can use this as a reference!
Great playing! I wasn't blown away by any of the mics. I find Starlights useable but not delicious. The KM's always sound good and precise but somehow tend towards feeling a little bit over bright for my tastes on classical guitar. For me, all AT mics on solo classical guitars tend towards being harsh or they lack detail. I found these ones harsh and maybe better for cutting through a mix than solo. To my ear, the Starlights are a clear choice out of the three if on a tight budget and not owning a lot of different mics. Even though the Neumann's are a little more precise and defined, the law of diminishing returns means it's only a little, and really hard to justify the price difference. I'm still looking for a holy grail combo myself, as it is not in my mic cabinet as we speak. Thanks for the excellent comparison!
Interesting. Seems like the A-S on Vintage did the lows better but the Neuman seemed cleaner all around (though all ex) and the A-T had the consistent tonal range w/o the price. For the amateur, imo, a toss-up, a preference whose differences can dealt with in production.
Well said, it’s a matter of getting the character of the mics that appeals to you (and the price range) knowing that a bit of eq goes a long way in post-production. Cheers!
THANKS!
Our pleasure! Hope this helps!
Oh que j'ai aimé ça
💖
Merci! Un petit video différent.
Which microphone did you like the most? Any bets on which one Alex ordered in the end?
Great video! I have an AT4041 and was just using it for recording my steel string guitar. The result was quite bright and kinda harsh - I thought I was mic’ing it incorrectly. Then I borrowed a friend’s mic that is a KM84 (not 184) clone. Holy cow, the 4041 mic is VERY bright in comparison - similar to your video. Actually though, the 4041 mixed with the KM84 clone sounded better than either mic alone, even after applying some EQ to both. I had them right next to one another and phase-aligned, so mixing them was straightforward.
That’s awesome! Blending mics really is awesome. Especially for steel-string a little brightness bite doesn’t hurt too much. Good thinking to mix just a smidge in there for clarity!
Starlights are such a good value.... the untrained ear goes for the at4041's because they are brighter. The km 184 and starlights are so close in style and flavor. You should show the starlights with the roll of engaged in the different modes, much more balanced with out the hype. There is a reason why the classical world would choose the km 184 over the at4041 on stringed instruments. In the classical world the mic position for such a mic would be above the performers head pointed down at the instrument. we are talking a good three to four feet from the source and that is where that warm low end comes into play and where the at4041 begins to sound thin and distant. The Starlights can keep up the 184's in this regard and a few other areas as well. They really do hit above their price point. I would like to suggest the Roswell audio line up for review as well as the Austrian Audio offerings. They are making some great microphones too that fair very well against the classics from Sennheiser/Neuman, DP, and the usual classical mic lockers.
Thank you so much for watching and weighing in! The Starlights do sounds terrific, but we didn't want to have the roll-off on the interface as well as the microphones. Maybe one day we'll experiment more and also include different mic placements (another viewer suggested we do a much closer mic, so plenty of people want to test out different configurations). We'll look into Roswell also, we were hoping to find some Earthworks and Oktava models as well but they were hard to get a hold of for what was a relatively quick video. It would be a mega video but something we're keeping in mind if it can be a great resource for guitarists. Thanks again for watching, it's much appreciated!
I loved the Aston Starlight
They are so very versatile. It’s a shame they’re no longer in production. If you spot a pair, get ‘em!
Congratulations, I did a shootout with steelstring guitar. It was at4041 vs. Atm450 both Audio Technica. It was clearly won by the atm450. So if someone is looking for a great budget mic it might be a good idea to give it a try.
Thanks for sharing Peter! Those Atm450 models look really interesting, we'd love to test them out some day. And maybe feature them in another iteration of these shootouts, who knows? Cheers, all the best!
Thanks for putting this video together, I’m always interested in hearing gear comparisons for classical guitar!
The thing I’m very sensitive to is self noise with microphones, the minute you apply some processing to the audio (any light compression and limiting for a modern, clear recording), the self noise becomes a critical factor, because to me even a great sounding mic can be ruined by noise if it’s too high.
The KM184s sound noticeably quieter than the others here (even more than the 2dB of difference on paper), which I predict would be even more exaggerated with processing. To me that’s worth it, and the microphone (typically being a bigger source of noise than the preamp) should be the first thing you upgrade in your signal chain.
My only slight complaint of the 184s is the high frequency boost falls right in the region of sound where the nail scratches the string, and that’s something I’m looking to avoid by filing my nails.
Even better I’ve found is the Neumann TLM193 which has a medium sized capsule, fast transients but with even lower noise (10dBA vs 13dBA for the 184s) that has a lovely flat sound right up to the highs, very popular with professional classical/orchestral sound engineers for spot mic’ing instruments, you can always add some high eq to your taste afterwards which it takes very well.
And if you have a great room (and a huge budget!), the Schoeps MK2 capsules sound wonderful, are also very quiet (10dBA) but are omnidirectional, which has pros and cons, pro that they don’t exhibit boomy proximity effect up close, but they hear all the room’s imperfections more.
Thanks again!
Thanks for weighing in, we’re thrilled that this is a useful resource for a lot of people! I’ll have to check out those TLM193s for sure! Finding microphones that don’t bring out nail noise and stuff really is a never ending journey, though with a bit of EQ in post I’m very happy with my 184s. The Schoeps are on the wish list for sure!!! I actually am looking for an omni pair for my next one to capture more flattering spaces. These were bought with close-mic production in mind, so very versatile for rooms that aren’t treated. Gotta save up for a while though. 😆 All the best on your projects, hope to hear it one day.
@@OttawaGuitarTrio thanks, yes a great mic for sure! Almost all of my videos so far are filmed using the Josephson C617SET which are widely acclaimed as the most detailed omnis (but not boosted in the highs) out there, although a little higher on the noise front than the schoeps and tlm193, I often pair them with a ribbon like the Coles 4038 or AEA R84 for a touch extra thickness down the middle, usually with some light noise reduction. The schoeps are my most recent purchase and still to do a proper video featuring them!
There’s a great channel called Classical Guitar Tones who’s compared the 193 with a few other nice choices of mic!
Thanks for the comparison and great playing. To my ears the Starlight sounds muddy none of the three settings was convincing. The AT sounds very clear, much better. The Neumann has also the clarity but adds some more body to the sound. But everybody’s ears and taste are different. On budget it would be the ATs otherwise the Neumann.
Glad you found this helpful! I did ultimately end up finding a used pair of Neumanns, so glad that I did!
Awesome video! Let’s try the Austrian Audio CC8 stereo set next, shall we?
If we can get our hands on more we’d love to do another iteration of this video. Seems to be a good resource for a lot of folks!
Call me crazy but I really liked the vintage voicing on the starlight. It does sound a lot like tape the way it is voiced!
Nothing crazy about that! That’s why we made the video. Reading online descriptions is fine and dandy, but it’s your ear that’s boss! Thanks for weighing in, cheers.
I love my Starlights
They are indeed a fine pair of microphones!
This definitely helped clarify to me that the Aston Spirit sounds comparatively muffled and muddy, which I was wondering if the sintered cap would do 🤔
We’re really happy this is turning out to be a great resource for people like yourself. They all do sound very different, we have a colleague who adores the Aston’s sound profile and swears by them. To each their own, Alex ended up getting a nice pair of used Neumanns the the quality. On the lookout now for something a bit less hyper-cardioid to capture the ensemble better, though for solo tracking we love the KMs. Thanks for watching and weighing in!
Audio technica! I would love to hear this through massive reverb like a strymon Big sky or something That's what I'm planning on doing... You guys would do it much better than I would!
Haha thank you! Maybe we’ll get experimental one day with fancy plugins, who knows?! Thanks for watching and weighing in, hope this was useful to you. Cheers!
@@OttawaGuitarTrio totally useful
@@OttawaGuitarTrio I find that with ambience, simple progressions are Godly
These are all okay… honestly, the room counts for more than people think. If you had a budget of $1k, IMO you should spend half on treating your space to absorb reflections, and use the other half for the best single sdc (or set) at the $500 price.
Also, remember that the guitar “reads” as a mono source when in a hall, so after recording and processing, adding a little reverb… your mono mic will be enough.
For on location recording, obviously you want a pair, but a matched pair isn’t always necessary - a mid-side recording can sound great if you have one figure 8 mic.
Absolutely! We don't pretend that this is the "best" reference for these mics, but while we had them in our hands, we made use of the space as best we can (we set up as much absorption as possible off-camera, but not professionally by any means). I've sense then treated that room, so we may do something similar in the future. We're happy that many seem to have found it helpful so far, but we appreciate you reminding the readers to take it with a certain grain of salt. Cheers!
Vraiment cool comme vidéo! Merci les gars! Je dois avouer que tous les extraits sonnent bien... Il y a tellement de facteur a prendre en considération lorsque l'on enregistre la guitare (joueur, guitare, cordes, ongles, pièce ou salle, humidité/aération, preamp, filage, etc..) Dans leur gamme de prix, les Starlight sont très efficaces car ils aident à "tweeker" ces "facteurs" d'un enregistrement à un autre. On peut même sortir quelque chose de raisonnable avec des Behringer C-2! haha.
Merci encore pour les comparaisons dans cette vidéo. C'est super intéressant!
Ça nous fait VRAIMENT plaisir que tu aies aimé Samuel! On a figuré que si â aide quelques personnes et plaisent les nerds, c'est un mission accomplie!
Hi! Nice test! I was surprised, but in test no. 1 I prefer AT 4041 and in the last 3 tests Neumanns. But, for the half price, the AT 4041 are perfect and nobody can hear the difference on the recording made with 4041s, if he has no comparsion to Neumanns! 🙂
Do you know brand new mics from Rode - TF-5? They are now sold only as a matched pair amd should be the most premium mics of the "new generation" designed with famous classical music producer Tony Faulkner ( = TF). They should be in the top range of all SDC mics and some people compare them to DPA 4011. I own a pair of DPA 4011 and they are FANTASTIC! If Rode made mics pair of similar sound quality, at the 1/3 of the price of DPAs, then hallelujah! 😀
Please, test them and compare them to KM 184 and DPA 4011 🙂
Thanks for the feedback! We definitely love the idea of incorporating more microphones in the future for more shootout videos, people seem to find it a genuinely helpful resource. We’ll have a look at the models you recommend. Thanks for watching and weighing in!
@@OttawaGuitarTrio thank you for the answer! I am very courous, how the TF-5s are, because, the story behind them shows, they sould be super-extraordinary. 🙂
I am more than happy with my starlights, I use them almost always on Hybrid setting. Personally I think the difference between the starlights on that setting and the Neumanns is negligible or at the very least would come simply down to personal taste as to which you like more for the subtle differences. For me, that doesn't come anywhere near justifying the huge jump in price, and something that might seem inconsequential but is very important for me is the fact that the starlights come with the built-in lasers. It might seem silly but having those lasers to really see where the mic is pointed at your instrument while you are the one setting them up with the guitar in hand can make a big difference in experimenting with placement and finding the sweet spot for you and your guitar!
The lasers are amazing, it would be cool to see more companies implementing that type of precision tool! We're just happy that the references are there for those who want to make a more informed decision!
The KM184 have more clarity and capturing the transients way better than the slower Aston. Important difference to me especially with recorded string instruments
great video. I use the AT 4042 with great success (maybe a bit more neutral), also using a pair of schoeps would sure be superior. I have a question concerning the sock like arm hose and the piece of wood on the guitar: are these tools to avoid unwanted noise i.e. sweaty skin sticking to wood during the recording process? and if so: where is this available? 🙏
Thanks! Those Schoeps have a gorgeous sound, they really do have a colour of their own. It all comes down to personal preference in the end.
In regards to your question, the sleeve on the arm is indeed to avoid noise but also to reduce friction and allow your arm to move freely. The piece of wood (arm rest) is both to protect the guitar’s polish as well as not have the arm dampen the resonance of the guitar top (fun fact, it doesn’t actually touch the top, but is attached only to the side). Fun stuff to look into, thanks for nerding out with us, we’re always happy to share! Cheers. 👌
@@OttawaGuitarTrio🙏🤓
Are any of them cross-rated for other instruments? As in a stringed instrument with a longer sound or something like an accordion that can do long continuous overlapping sounds?
We can't say we've researched into what they advertise themselves as, but it would be cool to see more instrumentalists giving it a shot!
I loved the Aston Starlight, the audio tech was too bright for my taste and the Neumann just didnt do anything for me. Question when we are listing to these mics are we hearing them panned L n R or are they both Centered? Thanks
Thanks for weighing in! I actually had to go back and check my DAW: The tracks are centred.
Would the AT4041 be good for dialogue as well?
It could certainly do the trick, but large diaphragm condensers are usually warmer and are used more often for dialogue in our opinion.
Should experiment with small condensers closer to the instrument.
Thanks man! We may end up doing another one of these if people find it helpful. We chose this distance since generally with classical guitar recordings, the closer you get to the instrument, the more you hear the extra "noise" created by fingers touching the strings, arm movement and whatnot. Therefore, it's rare to have them right up close, but it is a nice topic of discussion. Maybe we'll experiment further if we get our hands on more of these pics one day! Thanks for watching.
The "u" in "Guernica" is pronounced just like the "u" in another Spanish word: "Guitar".
(= not at all - the "u" is only there to indicate a hard "G").
And I've hear Spanish art experts put the emphasis "Guer-NI-ca
Thanks for the correction! I've heard so many different ways and perhaps should have put more research into it. Thanks for watching, hope this was helpful for you.
I´ve just bought a zoom h1n but I don´t like very much the sound for classical guitar. I am thinking about buying a zoom h5 and some condeser micro, do you think it would be a good idea?
Hi Ignacio, a friend of mine is actually running with that very same setup! He's got a Zoom H5 which he uses sometimes by itself or as an interface for his small-diaphragm condenser mics. Seems like to good investment to me, but don't just take my word for it!
@@alexbougiemusic Thank you very much, I must admit I feel lost. I can still return the zoom h1n I purchased in amazon 5 days ago and buying h5 and some good condeser micro. All this is very new for me but I would love to get better sound.
@@Ignacio.Fernandez.Santamaria Hi Ignacio, without being too familiar with either of those devices it is difficult to say for sure but it is probable that having a separate condenser mic plugged in could give you a better sound than the built-in mics in those recorders. But you can have the best gear and still not get a great sound if you don't know how to use it to it's fullest potential. Maybe check a few videos about mic placement for classical guitar (Colin Deibert has a good one on his channel) and see if you can get closer to the sound you are looking for just by adjusting the placement of the h1n. I actually found that I got a much better sound out of the AT4041s used in this video just by moving them closer to the bridge of the guitar, so even a few inches difference can have a big impact. Are you specifically looking for an all-in-one device for recording, or would you also consider using an audio interface to record into a laptop?
@@OttawaGuitarTrio Hi there!, At first sight I am looking for an all-in-one device, I mean video from a camera or a smartphone and audio separately and after sync with PluralEyes taking the audio from the recorder. Making some tests I noticed than final results can vary depending of the position and the gain of the recorder. Of course with the zoom h1n the sound is absolutely better than the camera or smartphone but I am looking for something better. And I say better not the "best". "Best" can be a "dangerous" word XD, I say this because until certain point there is something subjetive in the sound everyone get when make a recording with good microphones. Thank you for all.
@@Ignacio.Fernandez.Santamaria Hehe yes "best" can be a dangerous word! I ask about the "all-in-one" caveat because if that is your goal and you absolutely want something super portable like that for shooting in different locations then something like the H5 that allows you to plug in an external microphone is probably a better investment that will take longer to outgrow. That being said, if you already have an ok laptop (just recording a single guitar track doesn't take much CPU power) and will just be recording at home you can probably get more value for your money with an audio interface and a pair of mics.
HUH. To my ears, the Neumanns have an beautiful amount of detail but it's sometimes almost too much. I consistently prefer how the Starlights seem to smooth the sound over, especially on the Hybrid setting, which is pleasantly balanced and clear. It's almost like the Starlights are applying a slight EQ curve and discarding some extra audio info in a way I like, even if the Neumanns are more accurate. Meanwhile, the Audio-Technica strike me as pretty good but a little sterile or brittle sounding.
Anyways, for half the price and the extra features the Starlights sure look good to me. (The laser actually seems like it could be pretty useful, even if it initially sounds kinda gimmicky! And I could imagine the different voicings being useful for different sources )
What did you end up going for? As I'm about to hit buy on this "demo" pair on the Ottawa L&Q, I'm wondering if I just might be getting the same pair you rented!
(Lovely playing and sound overall too, the way those harmonics never seem to stop and condense into a ringing cloud kinda blew me away)
Wow, what a fun review, we’re so glad you got a lot out of the video! I (Alex) ended up going with a used pair of the Neumanns since I’m a sucker for that crazy amount of detail knowing I can soften things a bit in post. What sold me was my instinct that said “This sounds like I’m standing next to my guitar the most.” It was a really really close call, the Starlights truly are terrific, a bunch of our colleagues use them regularly. This video was a lot of fun, we hope to go all out and add more models one day! All the best, we hope you dig your Starlights, maybe they are one and the same haha.
@@OttawaGuitarTrio Nice, I can definitely see how the Neumanns give you more audio info to work with to perfect your sound and to capture just what's happening in the room. The Aston's strike me as a little more "set 'em and forget em"/good enough, as long as you like the sound they impart - which I do.
I'll keep an eye peeled for more from you, cheers!
@@wychwoodmusic Well said, a colleague of ours enjoys the Starlights because they will sound beautiful with no fuss!
Wow - next to his super successful foto and film channel Peter Mc Kinnon has a Guitar channel ;) just discovered you today - cool channel
Haha!! The video quality surely would have been better if it was. 😆 Thanks for checking the video out Jeremy, hope you got some helpful insights!
@@OttawaGuitarTrio hahaha :) Yep, Dad and i are thinking about buying a new mic (or pair of mics) as we record my guitar covers with a 150 Dollar Zoom (more for voice). Neumann KM184 is great but expensive. Probably we choose Beyer Dynamics 201 or MC-930. happy Sunday and cheers from Switzerland
@@JeremyMeister That's great! For me, a pair right off the bat has the advantage to get some stereo action going. Another thing to think about is often investing in a bit of sound treatment for your room as opposed to new mics. Kind of like cameras and lighting: without proper lighting, even the best cameras will not give you what they have to offer. Getting rid of sound reflections will give you an instant boost in quality.
Either AT or KM seems good. Keep in mind the acoustics, not very good acoustics nor appropriately controlled, a lot of early unpleasant reflections that's not due to the mics. As a mastering engineer listening in a controlled studio, both seems fine, but KM does sound especially good for nylon guitar because it has some bite to it, probably the AT would be better for cymbals etc, because its a little softer or even neutral
Thanks for your feedback! Indeed, the space is much less than ideal (I’ve treated the room much better since). We figured that despite the lack of sound treatment, some would find this video helpful or interesting. Great to hear your thoughts, thanks for watching and taking the time to weigh in!
The AT4041s are very unforgiving on CG and quite harsh.
Agreed. Nathan has retired that pair for a good while now, they were definitely not as flattering and were always in need of some post-production to roll off the top end.
@@OttawaGuitarTrio yeah, I had mics where you had to rip the treble right out post recording. The AT's brought it all back. Brrrr...horrible. Very very good video by the way!
neuman
😁