While I am an impartial observer of the conversation here, because I (Bob) don't yet have SM2...I would ask that all sides of this debate to please keep it civil. Ultimately, it is a game; while there is obviously differing opinions on the subject, Alex and I value all of your discussion. I don't think there needs to be personal attacks over it. Thanks much all. ~Bob~
its a fuckn grenade launcher, but you want it to act like a bean bag launcher? I've been using the auto bolt, heavy bolt, and stalker on ruthless and let me tell you, it's not a fun time. You're left swinging your melee after running out of ammo on 3 warriors. But that grenade launcher is a fun time and clearly you haven't used it enough to know that you can still die. The game will still kill you whether you have it or not. You just play one mission with it and that's it i bet. It takes the game too long to wake up and start throwing in those wild waves of hatred. Believe it, the launcher is just fine.
The only thing that makes it OP is that one tactical perk which restores ammo for majoris kills. One mag to be exact. And because you don't have a reserve, you just get your grenades back.
Auspex + GL lets you beat the Reliquary Helldrake in one cleanse on Lethal. It's going to get nerfed. Fixing the Tactical perk is probably going to make the biggest difference, to be honest. Make that perk restore maybe 1 or 2 grenades max and it will be mostly fixed... but something needs to be done about Terminus. I think we'll likely see Auspex nerfs on Terminus because GL tactical is just deleting them right now.
Yup have had this happen twice, ON LETHAL, what a buzzkill..... Imagine thinking that is "FUN", like why even play the game at that point if you're just gonna skip everything like that.
As GL enjoyer I typically only use the GL on bosses and minoris groups. I am not opposed to a capacity nerf 11 does feel like a lot and I can see what you mean on potentially ruining others fun. This typically why I only spam in super specific scenarios. My favorite area to use it is clearing the generators on inferno. I don't think we should take the ability to regenerate the grenades away from the perk unless the give another slight buff to the rifle so that bolter part feels better. I am not opposed to the 6 max capacity and receiving 3 grenades per kill. Just leave the drop pods and ammo boxes alone if that is the case if they were. I try to leave ammo boxes for the group since they can't regenerate ammo like I can and it gives me an excuse to jump into melee.
Totally disagree. Let people have their fun, if uyou feel its OP, dont use it, use a regular one. Also, you are assumingthat people that enjoy using it are not learning ther basics of the game. We are. We know how to position ourselves and help our team while bnlowing shit up. It is NOT a competitive game. it is a FUN game. Again, let people have its fun.
This mentality is why German Shepards were bred selectively to maximize "cuteness" and are now handicapped as a group You want things to just be "fun", "easy", and "light" That's not how life works and this obsession with trying to pretend it is has always caused massive suffering across the planet You people are gonna be held to account though
@@meonkrishnanan5920 Don’t go all “oh I know your kind” you condescending twat. I want my GAMES to be fun. it’s 100% what games are for. For fun. no matter how much you enjoy your struggles.
Its a PVE game, why do you care if its a crutch? I've beat every op on lethal with all classes. Yes the GL is the most powerful, but its not the most fun. I play all the guns because they're all fun to use. Part of its fun is being so powerful, same as the meltas. All it means is quicker, easier runs for myself and squad which everyone wants when its used. Stop with this "If you use X you're a scrub" mentality, trying to exalt a playstyle as the most skillful or respectful IN A PVE GAME. If you want more challenge use another gun. You're not going to have a tactical every game, and they won't have GL every game, its honestly pretty rare to see. I see Plasma or Stalker bolt more often. Let people have their fun.
@@aratay3117 Oh please, stop exaggerating. On Lethal? There are plenty of guns that perform very close to it, or just better for consistent DPS like the plasma weapons, heavy bolter, meltas...
@@thepunisherxxx6804 I don't have issue with plasma/ melta whatever. The grenades pass through your teammates and can stun them for a second while you're locked in melee combat. Auspex scan plus 2-3 grenades wipes out swathes of warriors in a moment. I've seen the helldrake die in one phase with the grenade launcher on lethal. The most aggravating thing is it can wipe out waves before you reach them, and take out extremis in one go. I don't run into that problem with melta's
@@aratay3117 Its not EVERY wave that can happen though, and in those cases I'm happy to have a faster clear. If I'm being realistic, most of my lethal runs are with people under level 10 who die immediately as the run begins. I'm grateful to have even just a lobby of level 25's of any class, let alone a tactical "easily clearing everything". Always plenty more to go around in lethal... Its a PVE game after all and people get tired of the GL. I honestly rarely see it if we have a tactical in the group. Tactical has so many weapon options and while they aren't as powerful, are really fun and get the job done. I do think stunning teammates should be removed, I think that's fair. Maybe it gets slightly less grenades from the magazine on execute perk, but if it does it should come along with more bolter buffs. That's part of the problem the bolter part and bolters in general still aren't very good outside of the stalker bolt and maybe the Instigator bolt carbine.
@thepunisherxxx6804 I've never seen a single person opposed to bolter buffs to be fair. I just want the grenade launcher to be a secondary, I've encountered far too many people that spam it even against minoris the assault was going to ground slam. Or killing warriors that were executable Getting 11-14 ammo every 30 seconds is annoying as hell. If they reduced the ammo gained for the grenades the player would have to save them for more important fights Especially when the perk doesn't automatically give a magazines ammo to the primary automatically. Which reduces the effectiveness of bolters further and incentivizes the cheese tube With the underleveled team mates thing yeah no one sub lvl20 should be in a public lethal game. I'm happy that you've avoided the grenade launcher spam but I certainly haven't
4 grenades without an auspex, it's the combination of auspex + GL that's the issue. But unless you want to nerf the auspex hard which will affect all weapons not just the GL combo. If you got the right perk setup with an auspex you need 1 grenade to put majoris into executable, maybe 2 depending on your perk setup. And mind you this is any majoris enemy in range of the grenade's explosion, so those 1 or 2 grenades isn't just 1 majoris usually. It's an entire group. If you're using auspex + GL on a boss like the hive tyrant or helldrake, you can get the hive tyrant into his second phase in about 7 grenades, and the helldrake you can kill outright with just a single "cleanse" But sure, "balanced"
The weapon shouldn't be nerfed at all. The gun part should just be buffed, dont tell other people how to play the game. I main tactical and primary use the heavy bolter, I've never even touched the normal bolt rifle longer than I had, too. I take out regularly 600+ every match becaues the penetrator perks allow me to kill multiple with each bullet if i keep my bolter at headlevel and walk sideways across a crowd. Is the pentration a crutch for me? Obviously not, I just know how to allocate my perks. Also run the perk that refills my mag, which is amazing with any bolter if you know what your doing. I unload unto a crowed kill a majoris and refill my mag to continue mowing down the crowds. The same goes for people using their perks to get the best out of the grenade launcher. Just because "you" can't play it properly doesn't mean no one else can. This whole video is just you not knowing how to properly synergies with this type of player. If you see a grouple of majoris and know that they are going to destroy them and you still run headfirst into them or try to take those kills then your the problem. It would be like me trying to mow down a crowd that assault is about to dive bomb. "I" would be the problem. Not only would I be wasting my time and ammo for things that would have been killed anyway, but I would be stopping the assault from regaining his ability. And it would be reverse if assault tried to dive bomb a crowd i was already mowing down. This comes off as you got you out done by someone with a grenade launcher, and you got salty about it.
You're just arguing in bad faith lol. Your ability to kill hordes is irrelevant. The issue is that no matter what weapon setup you use no matter what class you play as, Absolutely nothing compares to the GL + Auspex's ability to kill bosses in mere seconds. And you know damn well it's not about horde clearing. you know damn well that it's not about 'synergy' Do me a favour, try killing a boss or group of extremis enemies or a terminus with your heavy bolt rifle + auspex in the same amount of time as you kill them with the GL + auspex. Try to do it with an assault but without the auspex, since the assault obviously doesn't have one. a sniper. a heavy. A bulwark. A vanguard. Absolutely none of these classes, except for exclusively in situations where they have a tactical using auspex scan for them. Can kill a boss in even 1/4th the time as a auspex + GL. And even then they are closer to equal in speed, if not slower still. "Is the pentration a crutch for me? Obviously not, I just know how to allocate my perks." No one claims it is, so stop making up arguments that no one is making. "This comes off as you got you out done by someone with a grenade launcher, and you got salty about it." no one gives a damn about endgame stats except you. The issue is that when people see a bossfight they want to have fun, not just watch a cutscene of a tactical spamming a GL.
@Gary_The_Metro I'm not making any arguments in bad faith. you're just taking them that way. I've taken on multiple extreme and up enimies as assualt and come out on top, lictors, raveners, nurothrops, terminators, hellbrutes, and sorcerers, ect ect. It may not be about the crowd clearing for you, but it is for me. Each of us plays the game for a different reason. you're just trying to justify taking away someone else's way of playing the game for "your" reason. That's why we pick the classes we pick and go into different playstyles. Some are good at clearing crowds, and others are good at big single target damage. Some are better than others, and I dont expect to be able to compete with Sniper for taking out single targets or competing with tactical in long distance combat or bulwark in soaking damage. My job as assault is to smack the enimies good and hard and tenderize them so it's easier for my teammates to bring them down. Tjat being said I greatly enjoy when there are a ton of enimies, because I can just start spaming my ground slam, killing almost everything majoris and extremis included because the number of minors just regenerates the ability for me. Alot of people still say assault it bad just because they don't know how to play it, same way people are saying tactical with gl is bad because they are just shitty teammates. I can easily get even the largest enimies down to half heath by myself. In this very specific scenario, I do something my class is normal, not capable of doing. Just like tactical, in very specific circumstances that can cause a lot of damage to a small group of enemies, or one very big enemy. Which is part of the tactical role in the first place. Killing things like the hive tyrant isn't remotely hard as any class. Even not having tactical at all, a good team could have it dead in less than 30 seconds. As long as sniper snipes, I assualt, and any other class is doing what they are supposed to be doing.
@@charlesmorton9845 "I've taken on multiple extreme and up enimies as assualt and come out on top, lictors, raveners, nurothrops, terminators, hellbrutes, and sorcerers, ect ect." yeah, and? there's nothing wrong with coming out on top. the issue is trivializing them into just spamming a few GL's. How is this too hard for you to understand? no one is saying "Hey you should simply lose as soon as a group of extremis enemies show up" but there is quite a difference between hitting your headshots, hitting your parries, hitting your perfect dodges, and pressing Q once and spamming left mouse button a few times while looking in the general direction of your target. "My job as assault is to smack the enimies good and hard and tenderize them so it's easier for my teammates to bring them down. Tjat being said I greatly enjoy when there are a ton of enimies, because I can just start spaming my ground slam, killing almost everything majoris and extremis included because the number of minors just regenerates the ability for me." Yeah, which is a specific scenario that only works if the enemy is clustered together and you are given a good opportunity to do so. It's specifically good against hordes of targets with low healthpools. The tactical's GL spam especially when combined with an auspex is good against everything. The tactical's GL spam is something he can do whenever and if he does run out somehow he'll have full ammo again within 30 seconds. And the auspex doesn't have a very long cooldown either. "Alot of people still say assault it bad just because they don't know how to play it, same way people are saying tactical with gl is bad because they are just shitty teammates. " No one is saying tactical with GL is bad. They're saying tactical with GL is overpowered and makes the game unfun to play. This also isn't about assault, which is a very good class. The assault still cannot do anything close to what the tactical can. "Killing things like the hive tyrant isn't remotely hard as any class." correct, but not a single class can solo a hive tyrant in 10 seconds. "Even not having tactical at all, a good team could have it dead in less than 30 seconds. As long as sniper snipes, I assualt, and any other class is doing what they are supposed to be doing" Okay so a complete team optimized towards single target damage can do in 30 seconds what a single tactical can do in 10. And you don't see the issue here? If the single tactical does it in 30 if he absolutely min maxes everything towards damage? sure. More reasonable. arguably still a bit too powerful, but more reasonable. 10? no. The reason I say you're arguing in bad faith is because you are choosing to ignore the issue that people are mentioning and instead hyperfocusing on stats and an illusion of "well other classes are powerful too therefore there can't be an issue with the GL" Even though you know damn well that the GL + auspex is objectively more powerful than literally every other alternative. That's not even an opinion, it simply is. Nothing you can bring to the table in the entire game, compares in raw damage per second.
Problem is if saber dares to nerf it (even if it is heavily deserved) you'll get another batch of crying little shits screaming about "OMG HELLDIVERS 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and review bombing again. Also 7:05 this has been true from the start, people absolutely refuse to learn the game's core mechanics, and then complain that the game is too hard. They'll use 50% of the tools in their arsenal and then complain that a balance change made the 50% of the tools that they exclusively used 5% worse. If I had a euro for every moron tactical, vanguard, or sniper that is convinced that they don't have to use melee ever in any scenario... I'd have a very nice house.
I've been leveling this weapon up and I get what you're saying but I pretty much only use the grenades on hoards and sometimes forget about them all together lol 😂 But I feel what you are saying
As someone who cleared all of the Lethal Missions pre patch pretty much solely because I used the grenade bolter I definitely agree that the weapon is ridiculous, I probably could've cleared lethals with a good enough team but I've even carried level 5s through lethals because of how insane that gun is which I'm pretty sure I'm not good enough to do without it. In lethal I cleared a Carnifex before it could get off more than 1 attack total because I had auspex off cooldown, popped it and shot 10 nades right at it's skull. He did that shooting attack so he was in place for the entire time so it was a free kill. He even *hit* me with one of his shots which took half of my health but since I was launching nades at him I instantly gained all of the damage back, literally relegated to a 15 second fight. Makes me wish the Astartes nade launcher was that good on tabletop lmfao. Anyway, I think a capacity cap is definitely in order, or maybe even make Vengeance not replenish Auxiliary ammo similar to how the ammo caches can't anymore. I think there's something to be said that modern audiences are not healthily partaking in the discourse on how a game should be balanced, in my opinion this was caused because of Helldivers 2, there were 2 weapons that were insanely powerful and put everything else to shame, they were nerfed which was a good thing, but then they took it a step too far by nerfing even more which really impacted the game in a negative way. Now it's like everyone has nerf anxiety or something you can't say the word without people saying "no, the player should NEVER be nerfed in a pve game." I've even seen this mentality pop up with Space Marine 2 when that nerf was implemented, and with the whole patch as a whole. Don't get me wrong lethals with that mechanic was an awful idea, but the other armor nerfs and everything imo weren't that bad, it helped make the game stay pretty challenging. I'm just hoping with the blowback from that update (and the subsequent review bombing which I will condemn doing when a patch didn't go your way till the day I die) isn't going to discourage them from taking real looks at how the game is balanced, because having a challenging pve mode is going to keep me coming back.
@mad0hattr 100% agree to the discussion of balancing. It's weird to see people so against things being nerfed even if it healthy for the game. The same can be said about Auspex and Melta Bombs being nerfed. Before, you would just combine them and kill a boss instantly and there's no way that that is a good place for the game to be in. Auspex is still crazy strong on bosses and melts are fantastic for horde and extremis clears.
I don’t think it needs as heavy handed of a nerf in how it functions, the grenades just need to not benefit as much from auspex and not refill the entire reserves from Emperor’s Vengeance. Alternatively, they could just reduce the damage that the grenades do to bosses like how it already is for plasma charged shots as part of a nerf. Tactical could also use a tiny buff to all the other primaries it has access to, as currently only the melta, plasma incinerator, bolt rifle, and bolt rifle w/gl are worth using. Both the stalker bolt rifle and the bolt carbine are already the worst choices for Sniper, and on tactical you have none of the perks that allow them to at least be mildly functional. Only reason to ever use either is if you want to level them and someone is already playing sniper. The auto and heavy bolt rifles both sacrifice range and accuracy (which is already at a damn premium) for rate of fire and slightly more mag size and ammo. You already get the best of both worlds in the artificer tier versions of the regular bolter, no need to make yourself almost as inaccurate as hip firing a plasma incinerator.
I think the best and biggest tell that a Tactical is being crutched by the BRGL is when they are playing and then go down after no more grenades or spam them in a group others are fighting as you suggested. You can inmideiately tell that without the BRGL, they can't do anything and that has a high chance for the team to lose. I personally think the GL should be limited to 4, but get a full refill from EV. I wouldn't be opposed though to EV only giving back 3 per say and having a max of 5. Once this weapon is nerfed, I think most if not every weapon will be in a great place, minus the Stalker and Bolt Sniper Rifle having their ammo regernation perks be kind of wonky and not work the greatest.
Here's an idea, let's compromise. Let's nerf GL, but only for Lethal/Ruthless. That way hardcore players can keep the challenge, and casual players can keep their "fun" OP toys. But hmmm something tells me casuals won't accept that for some reason, it's almost like they want to trivialize the hardest difficulty, and refuse to play on lower difficulty where everyone, not just them is OP. Almost like an ego thing.
Or maybe it's a skill issue of people not knowing how to properly sinergies with the teammates they have. This whole video is just him not knowing how to play around and with his teammates.
@@charlesmorton9845 Oh yeah lets ground slam and get kills for cooldown. *Thunk oh... hey lets execute these 4 warriors and get health armor and cooldown.. thunk. Never mind.. oh boy a extremis. Scan. Thunk x11. Wow what a fight I'm glad I was here as a spectator
It's fine. If you feel it's OP and makes the game un-fun just don't use it. Most players playing over substantial are still considerate enough to ensure they leave executions for other party members. Below that you get greedy players regardless of the weapons they use.
The problem is that " If you feel it's OP and makes the game un-fun just don't use it." it's not about you not using it, it's about others effectively not getting to play the game. A tactical shows up in your lobby with auspex and a GL? he can kill the helldrake bossfight in the same amount of time it takes you to finish an execution. Do you think that's fun for the teammates? Or a bunch of extremis enemies show up, *thump thump thump* and it's gone. You didn't get to do anything, you didn't get to enjoy a fun fight, you just watched the equivalent of a cutscene.
Did you ever consider that the people spamming the GL and killing an entire boss in less than 10 seconds could be unfun for other people? It's not like people exclusively use this in private lobbies. "Stop ruining everyone's fun" you 1 hit killing everything is only fun for you. If I see 4 terminus enemies show up and they are gone before i can even finish my execution animation on a majoris, do you think that's fun for me? or the other squadmate?
@@Gary_The_Metro Dude stfu. I have a few hundred hours in this game and have maxed every class and I've never seen the GL be an issue. It's not a big deal in co-op game.
@@MM-js4nf I love how every moron with a bad opinion has to precede his bad take with: "EHM I HAVE HUNDRED+ HOURS AND MAXED EVERY CLASS" cool. Your dogshit opinion isn't any less dogshit for it. "I've never seen the GL be an issue" Cool, I have. Multiple times. As have many others. "It's not a big deal in a co-op game" Yes, it is. If some dude with a GL runs up and kills every enemy do you think that's going to be much fun for everyone else? Go run private lobbies on minimal difficulty if you want to 1 hit kill everything.
@@MM-js4nf I love how every creature with a godawful take on the game has to precede his godawful take with: "I HAVE HUNDREDS OF HOURS AND MAXED OUT EVERY CLASS AND I SOLO RUTHLESS AND MY MOMMY CALLS ME HER SPECIAL BOY AND I AM SO SUPER GOOD" Cool, I don't care dude. Your opinion is just as garbage as it would be if you were a level 1 with 10 hours in the game. "I've never seen the GL be an issue" Cool, I don't care what you have seen as an issue. the GL auspex combo is objectively more powerful than all other weapons. that's not my opinion, that's just hard weapon stats. " It's not a big deal in co-op game." if your basis for any opinion has to revolve around it being a co-op game, it's probably a bad argument. It's a co-op game. So everyone should have fun, not just the moron spamming his grenade launcher. You want to 1 hit kill everything? go play in a private lobby on minimal difficulty, I don't care. You are not the only person in this co-op game, so when one person is capable of just killing every target before his teammates can get a chance to have any fun at all, that's a problem.
@Gary_The_Metro it only happened to me one time, and when I do it I'm always overshadowed by a heavy with a multi melta or plasma, its not an issue, its fun and help u get through bosses in higher difficulties when you get swarmed, nothing needs nurfing
Greta video and correct on all fronts. Patch 4.0, I did a mission as Tac with articifer BRGL and it was piss easy and that only had 6 grenades and did much less damage.
the only thing they need to do is giving self damage like grenades, because spamming at melee distance is op. with that u will only doit range and be more careful. its so abius that will change the gameplay soooooo much and with some delay within the spamming shot gg u got the right amount of nerfing.... leave a like and follow if u like it i have a shit architecture channel... :) help me.
the grenade launcher is boring but i like having the option every now and then. i agree with all the points made but i think buffing the bolter so the grenade launcher isnt the main focus of the weapon would be good. reloading 9 grenade and saving an execute to wipe out hoard after hoard with no worries robs everyone of gameplay. but i like going down to easier levels and using it and feeling immortal but then all the guns are good in easier levels too.
Anyone who doesn't think this needs adjusting is a dribbler. I can solo lethal missions with ease with Tac GL. Other classes, much harder. It is downright obnoxious playing with a teammate who knows how to use this gun. It throws off the balance and mechanics of the game. Getting 3 grenades back from an execute would be fair, and it would still remain very strong.
@@CasterLeonne no one gives a shit if you can solo lethal. I but the game for fun, not sweat my ass off trying to be as good as you. Keep playing solo and leave us alone
@fiddyfresh7350 it's to point out it is far stronger than any other set up you mong. It trivializes the hardest mode in the game and is annoying as hell on your team. Why don't you just stick to substantial or whatever and use whatever you want and get tonnes of kills? You either don't know how to use it properly, or you don't care and want to be top of the kill count at the expense of your team #muhpowerfantasy 🤡
@@fiddyfresh7350 Unsurprisingly you missed the point. Of course no one cares. The point is it is far more powerful than any other setup, trivializing even the hardest challenge in the game Playing with a tac who knows how to use this trivializes any mode, breaks the game's mechanics, ignores balance, and makes it miserable for teammates. You either don't know how to use it, or you do, and are just being selfish and want to no-brain your way to victory while feeling good about your killcount at the expense of your team. Go play with any gun in average mode and feel like a god if you want to maintain #muhpowerfantasy 🤡
@ again, that’s your experience, not everyone and especially not mine. I played with a rando using GL on lethal and it saved runs. I’ve used it when I had to carry level 9 randoms through ruthless and lethals. GL is the “oh shit” button you push if you don’t wanna waste time getting wiped 20 minutes into a run. Like I said before, if you don’t like it go play solo. I’d rather play with randos so I need that Oh-shit button to be there when my team sucks.
@@fiddyfresh7350 you realize if they nerfed the ammo gained it would be used for oh shit moments instead of just shooting it will nilly and wiping out everything?
I’m the reason for many of the people I’ve played with for being able to clear lethal. For which not one person in hundreds of matches has ever had one complaint. No one has ever said, Chris, you’re ruining it for me, please stop. Today it’s gl, yesterday it was the melta rifle, the week before the multi melta. It’s always going to be something with elitist crowd, like you, talking about skill level. Its a game, let people enjoy it. If you don’t like it, play with your friends and don’t use it.
"Today it’s gl, yesterday it was the melta rifle, the week before the multi melta. " The melta was bugged, it was never nerfed stop crying about it. It's damage was never changed, it's range was never changed, it kills things exactly as effectively as before. They simply fixed a bug (that also applied to other weapons). "It’s always going to be something with elitist crowd, like you, talking about skill level. Its a game, let people enjoy it" Exactly, it's a game let people enjoy it. So let the other people on their team, enjoy the game too. Does it sound fun to you to just walk behind someone and not get to play the game at all? Someone just has to spam his little GL and everything infront of you dies? Oh you got a cool bossfight? wrong. Auspex + GL and now the hellbrute/carnifex/neurothrope is gone. Hive tyrant? yea sorry mate you don't get to fight it. Helldrake? 10 seconds, all it takes. Group of extremis shows up? sorry mate *thump thump thump* So fun dude. " If you don’t like it, play with your friends and don’t use it." If you don't like it, go play minimal difficulty with your friends. See how that's a bad argument? You lot are the biggest elitist crowd there is. Anyone dares suggest they want to have fun in the game too and you start screaming at them.
@babutaterbuggrimm6678 agree, I'm having fun, my team mates are having fun, if they aren't they can kick me out of the mission, if I'm not having fun i can leave the mission, I had a lot of people add me and ask me to help them clear higher difficulties with them, its fun and everyone is enjoying it except a sour bunch of few
4 Grenades like the graphics suggest sound good to me. It can still wipe a cluster of Majoris. But it's called auxiliary grenade launcher. It should be a side dish, not the main course. It's literally 500% better then any other weapon, its so OP it's just stupid. If you cry from all the reasonable calls to nerf it, just learn to play the game please. Try some solo missions and practice timing and develop game sense.
Aside from the explosive reload bug it's fine. Taking 3 grenades just to put a majoris into the execute state with a relic weapon is not what I would call a crutch. I'd much rather see the bolters get even more damage buffs.
3 grenades without an auspex, it's the combination of auspex + GL that's the issue. But unless you want to nerf the auspex hard which will affect all weapons not just the GL combo. If you got the right perk setup with an auspex you need 1 grenade to put majoris into executable, maybe 2 depending on your weapon perk setup. And mind you this is any majoris enemy in range of the grenade's explosion, so those 1 or 2 grenades isn't just 1 majoris usually. It's an entire group. If you're using auspex + GL on a boss like the hive tyrant or helldrake, you can get the hive tyrant into his second phase in about 8-10 grenades, and the helldrake you can kill outright with 10-ish grenades. Did you even watch the video? he specifies that it's about the auspex + GL not just the GL.
Also, no every other weapon should not be buffed more to match the BRGL, at that point, Lethal difficulty will be just as easy as minimal. The hardest difficulty should not feel the same as the lowest and if players want that, all I can think of is delusions of grandure and entitlement. Nothing should be so good that it trivializes the hardest difficulty.
Problem ? Really is it a problem in PvE non competive game where you can mod shit out of it (legaly btw) ? Devs should realy stop listening people like you. Today it is GL, tommorow will be what ?
OP? Are you a Tyranid? No? Then what does it matter!!??? Stop with this Nonesense. I get you want to make money, but not at the expense of our enjoyment man. It's a co-op game. Let it be.
If he really wanted to make money, he would just appease the plebs by saying what they want to hear instead of giving his own thoughts. The mental gymnastics that the BRGL defenders have to perform to cope is just unreal lmfao.
Did you ever consider that the people spamming the GL and killing an entire boss in less than 10 seconds could be unfun for other people? It's not like people exclusively use this in private lobbies. "But not at the expense of our enjoyment" you 1 hit killing everything is only fun for you. If I see 4 terminus enemies show up and they are gone before i can even finish my execution animation on a majoris, do you think that's fun for me? or the other squadmate? It's a co-op game. So when one class can ruin the game for the rest of the lobby that's an issue. I don't want to have to kick tacticals by default if I want to actually experience the game's bossfights.
I'm going to be the devil's advocate here. The real problem is Emperor's Vengeance. With and without it's bugs. The fact that rifle grenades have soo much utility against majors and extremis, combined with the fact you recover a full complement of them every 30 seconds is putting huge pressure on the scales of balance in the Grenade Rifle scale, and the Tactical's favor across class balance. Assault and Vanguard really struggle to compare with the damage output of tactical with Auspex Scan anyway, but also just in competing with Tactical's ammunition sustain. I would absolutely agree with a reduction in rate of fire, and a reduction in ammo, but Emperor's Vengeance is a huge balance issue for the other classes to deal with in operations mode.
EV should not be hit. It doesn't fix the actual issue and ends up hurting every other weapon that Tactical has instead of only targeting the GL. This is why a mag hit to a max of 4 grenades keeps the weapon useful in a pinch, but doesn't allow it to be spammed indefinitely. EV isn't talked about being a problem with any other weapon except for BRGL signifying that that weapon is the only real issue.
No nerfs devs should create an enemy that its not effective against so players have an actual threat to their survival I don't play tac so i don't care but i don't think a nerf is the answer At least damage wise ive had people complain about me getting 6-7 ground pounds in a row because i get ability recharge from kills executions and headshots when playin with sniper and vangaurd
this "no nerfs" attitude people have is braindead. You all thought it was a good idea in helldivers, it isn't. Let's do a hypothetical here. Devs add a "kill everything on the map" button. It's just a 1 button press and has a 30 seconds cooldown. Only one person on your team gets it and he gets to use it whenever he wants every 30 seconds. it simply 1 hit kills everything. Does this sound fun to you? does this sound like a fun experience for the teammates of that player? No? Then stop claiming that no nerfs is some kind of good idea. "At least damage wise ive had people complain about me getting 6-7 ground pounds in a row because i get ability recharge from kills executions and headshots when playin with sniper and vangaurd" Cool, but you can't do that against a boss. Which is the core of the issue. Did you even watch the video? You even claim yourself you don't play tac so you don't even understand the problem. A tactical with a GL and auspex can kill a boss like the helldrake or hellbrute or carnifex or neurothrope in less than 10 seconds.
@Gary_The_Metro first off I've maxed all classes and have all the weapons in relic tier and I did tac first. second chill out nerd all I said was that I didn't think a nerf for the damage was a good idea and I wasn't even complaining about anything plus as an assault fighting bosses I don't need to jump 6-7 times I parry and perfect dodge for gun strikes and get armor back while dealing damage and holding agro so the tactical can auspex and kill it like a teammate should not trying to solo the whole operation like I'm playing with bots You don't benefit from doing better than anyone else let tactical keep it's nuts And while you're at it stay off mine 😉
@@corbincompton2966 "kill it like a teammate should not trying to solo the whole operation like I'm playing with bots " Which is exactly like you're suggesting the tactical should be able to do lmfao. You're literally suggesting to let the situation stay as is, and thus be able to solo the entire boss as if his teammates are bots. "first off I've maxed all classes and have all the weapons in relic tier and I did tac first. " The universal statement by those with bad takes. "EHM I'VE UNLOCKED EVERYTHING 💅💅" Damn bro doesn't make your opinion less garbage. "You don't benefit from doing better than anyone else let tactical keep it's nuts" The tactical that will still be an incredibly powerful class can take a minor nerf to it's grenade launcher capacity. If you think that will make the tactical "lose it's nuts" you simply don't know how to play the tactical. Having all weapons at relic doesn't make you good at the game. You also didn't really counter a single one of the things I said, you have no actual arguments. All you did is whine about not being able to solo a boss as an assault so super easily, like... yeah? that's normal? It's of course possible to solo a boss, but it shouldn't ever be easy. How about you chill out nerd and let the game be fun for everyone instead of just tacticals. Can't do that? play a different game.
@@corbincompton2966 "FiRsT oFf I'Ve MaXeD aLl ClaSsEs aNd HaVe AlL ThE wEaPoNs In ReLiC tIeR" Why does every mong with a garbage take start off with this sentence? You could be the first player that completed every achievement in the game, got everything in PVP and PVE to max level before anyone else, and your opinion would still be completely equally garbage. "All I said was that I didn't think a nerf for the damage was a good idea and I wasn't even complaining about anything" and no one in the video mentioned damage. They mentioned ammo capacity and ammo regeneration. Give the tac it's big boom stick, but don't give it nigh-unlimited ammo and the damage equivalent of 11 krak grenades. " plus as an assault fighting bosses I don't need to jump 6-7 times I parry and perfect dodge for gun strikes and get armor back while dealing damage and holding agro so the tactical can auspex and kill it like a teammate should not trying to solo the whole operation like I'm playing with bots" Okay?? Yeah that's the point, that it shouldn't be that the tactical just has the equivalent of 2 bot teammates that are just along for the ride. Ever heard of fun? it's kind of an important part of games. Just following someone around that nukes everything infront of you before you can even do anything and ends a bossfight before you can even enter combat range isn't fun for anyone. "You don't benefit from doing better than anyone else let tactical keep it's nuts " And no one said anything about "doing better than others" no one CARES about doing better than others except maybe you. Whine at someone else with your strawman arguments. So unless you have the reading comprehension to actually make a single valid argument about anything I've said, you should probably chill out nerd.
@@corbincompton2966 " first off I've maxed all classes and have all the weapons in relic tier and I did tac first. " the moronic sentence started by every fool with a bad take on the game. I don't care how much you have unlocked, your opinion is no less garbage for it. "all I said was that I didn't think a nerf for the damage was a good idea and I wasn't even complaining about anything" Neither did anyone suggest it in the video. The suggestion was to reduce it's total ammo pool and reduce how much ammo you gain from a specific perk. You know, not giving the tactical access to the equivalent of 11 krak grenades.. every 30 seconds... " plus as an assault fighting bosses I don't need to jump 6-7 times I parry and perfect dodge for gun strikes and get armor back while dealing damage and holding agro so the tactical can auspex and kill it like a teammate should not trying to solo the whole operation like I'm playing with bots " Cool, you're making my own argument for me smartass. A teammate should not solo the whole operation like he's playing with bots. As in, one teammate should not be able to clear the entire operation with 0 skill needed beyond pressing left mouse button a few times and going *thump thump thump* None of what you have said, disputes any of my points. If I didn't know any better I'd question you are capable of reading. "You don't benefit from doing better than anyone else" nice strawman argument.Tactical's grenade launcher being mildly less effective will still leave it as objectively one of the most powerful classes in the game. But the game should be fun for all classes, not just tacticals. It's a game, don't like it when your teammates have fun too and not just you? go play something else, nerd.
While I am an impartial observer of the conversation here, because I (Bob) don't yet have SM2...I would ask that all sides of this debate to please keep it civil. Ultimately, it is a game; while there is obviously differing opinions on the subject, Alex and I value all of your discussion. I don't think there needs to be personal attacks over it.
Thanks much all.
~Bob~
For solo players with bots this weapon is a handy thing to have as it is.
100% agree. It‘s no fun. Your changes are exactly my thoughts.
I stopped using the grenade launcher at level artificer because it was boring. No chalange, no skill needed.
its a fuckn grenade launcher, but you want it to act like a bean bag launcher? I've been using the auto bolt, heavy bolt, and stalker on ruthless and let me tell you, it's not a fun time. You're left swinging your melee after running out of ammo on 3 warriors. But that grenade launcher is a fun time and clearly you haven't used it enough to know that you can still die. The game will still kill you whether you have it or not. You just play one mission with it and that's it i bet. It takes the game too long to wake up and start throwing in those wild waves of hatred. Believe it, the launcher is just fine.
The only thing that makes it OP is that one tactical perk which restores ammo for majoris kills. One mag to be exact. And because you don't have a reserve, you just get your grenades back.
Auspex + GL lets you beat the Reliquary Helldrake in one cleanse on Lethal. It's going to get nerfed.
Fixing the Tactical perk is probably going to make the biggest difference, to be honest. Make that perk restore maybe 1 or 2 grenades max and it will be mostly fixed... but something needs to be done about Terminus. I think we'll likely see Auspex nerfs on Terminus because GL tactical is just deleting them right now.
Yup have had this happen twice, ON LETHAL, what a buzzkill.....
Imagine thinking that is "FUN", like why even play the game at that point if you're just gonna skip everything like that.
As GL enjoyer I typically only use the GL on bosses and minoris groups. I am not opposed to a capacity nerf 11 does feel like a lot and I can see what you mean on potentially ruining others fun. This typically why I only spam in super specific scenarios. My favorite area to use it is clearing the generators on inferno. I don't think we should take the ability to regenerate the grenades away from the perk unless the give another slight buff to the rifle so that bolter part feels better. I am not opposed to the 6 max capacity and receiving 3 grenades per kill. Just leave the drop pods and ammo boxes alone if that is the case if they were. I try to leave ammo boxes for the group since they can't regenerate ammo like I can and it gives me an excuse to jump into melee.
Not going to lie i haven't seen the Grenade Launcher in anything except campaign yet haha. Not a problem i was aware of
Totally disagree. Let people have their fun, if uyou feel its OP, dont use it, use a regular one. Also, you are assumingthat people that enjoy using it are not learning ther basics of the game. We are. We know how to position ourselves and help our team while bnlowing shit up.
It is NOT a competitive game. it is a FUN game. Again, let people have its fun.
This mentality is why German Shepards were bred selectively to maximize "cuteness" and are now handicapped as a group
You want things to just be "fun", "easy", and "light"
That's not how life works and this obsession with trying to pretend it is has always caused massive suffering across the planet
You people are gonna be held to account though
@meonkrishnanan5920 Brother in christ, it's a GAME. You're taking it too seriously lmao
@@meonkrishnanan5920 ok psycho
@@meonkrishnanan5920 Its a video game designed for entertainment and fun specifically, you unbelievable idiot.
@@meonkrishnanan5920 Don’t go all “oh I know your kind” you condescending twat. I want my GAMES to be fun. it’s 100% what games are for. For fun. no matter how much you enjoy your struggles.
Its a PVE game, why do you care if its a crutch? I've beat every op on lethal with all classes. Yes the GL is the most powerful, but its not the most fun. I play all the guns because they're all fun to use. Part of its fun is being so powerful, same as the meltas. All it means is quicker, easier runs for myself and squad which everyone wants when its used. Stop with this "If you use X you're a scrub" mentality, trying to exalt a playstyle as the most skillful or respectful IN A PVE GAME. If you want more challenge use another gun. You're not going to have a tactical every game, and they won't have GL every game, its honestly pretty rare to see. I see Plasma or Stalker bolt more often. Let people have their fun.
Unless someone is trying to be carried it's straight up unfun to have a team mate with this thing. (Well unless they're complete trash)
@@aratay3117 Oh please, stop exaggerating. On Lethal? There are plenty of guns that perform very close to it, or just better for consistent DPS like the plasma weapons, heavy bolter, meltas...
@@thepunisherxxx6804
I don't have issue with plasma/ melta whatever.
The grenades pass through your teammates and can stun them for a second while you're locked in melee combat. Auspex scan plus 2-3 grenades wipes out swathes of warriors in a moment.
I've seen the helldrake die in one phase with the grenade launcher on lethal.
The most aggravating thing is it can wipe out waves before you reach them, and take out extremis in one go. I don't run into that problem with melta's
@@aratay3117 Its not EVERY wave that can happen though, and in those cases I'm happy to have a faster clear. If I'm being realistic, most of my lethal runs are with people under level 10 who die immediately as the run begins. I'm grateful to have even just a lobby of level 25's of any class, let alone a tactical "easily clearing everything". Always plenty more to go around in lethal...
Its a PVE game after all and people get tired of the GL. I honestly rarely see it if we have a tactical in the group. Tactical has so many weapon options and while they aren't as powerful, are really fun and get the job done.
I do think stunning teammates should be removed, I think that's fair. Maybe it gets slightly less grenades from the magazine on execute perk, but if it does it should come along with more bolter buffs. That's part of the problem the bolter part and bolters in general still aren't very good outside of the stalker bolt and maybe the Instigator bolt carbine.
@thepunisherxxx6804
I've never seen a single person opposed to bolter buffs to be fair.
I just want the grenade launcher to be a secondary, I've encountered far too many people that spam it even against minoris the assault was going to ground slam. Or killing warriors that were executable
Getting 11-14 ammo every 30 seconds is annoying as hell.
If they reduced the ammo gained for the grenades the player would have to save them for more important fights
Especially when the perk doesn't automatically give a magazines ammo to the primary automatically.
Which reduces the effectiveness of bolters further and incentivizes the cheese tube
With the underleveled team mates thing yeah no one sub lvl20 should be in a public lethal game.
I'm happy that you've avoided the grenade launcher spam but I certainly haven't
Its like 4 grenades for one major…
I think its balanced enough
4 grenades without an auspex, it's the combination of auspex + GL that's the issue. But unless you want to nerf the auspex hard which will affect all weapons not just the GL combo.
If you got the right perk setup with an auspex you need 1 grenade to put majoris into executable, maybe 2 depending on your perk setup. And mind you this is any majoris enemy in range of the grenade's explosion, so those 1 or 2 grenades isn't just 1 majoris usually. It's an entire group.
If you're using auspex + GL on a boss like the hive tyrant or helldrake, you can get the hive tyrant into his second phase in about 7 grenades, and the helldrake you can kill outright with just a single "cleanse"
But sure, "balanced"
The weapon shouldn't be nerfed at all. The gun part should just be buffed, dont tell other people how to play the game. I main tactical and primary use the heavy bolter, I've never even touched the normal bolt rifle longer than I had, too.
I take out regularly 600+ every match becaues the penetrator perks allow me to kill multiple with each bullet if i keep my bolter at headlevel and walk sideways across a crowd.
Is the pentration a crutch for me? Obviously not, I just know how to allocate my perks.
Also run the perk that refills my mag, which is amazing with any bolter if you know what your doing. I unload unto a crowed kill a majoris and refill my mag to continue mowing down the crowds.
The same goes for people using their perks to get the best out of the grenade launcher. Just because "you" can't play it properly doesn't mean no one else can.
This whole video is just you not knowing how to properly synergies with this type of player. If you see a grouple of majoris and know that they are going to destroy them and you still run headfirst into them or try to take those kills then your the problem.
It would be like me trying to mow down a crowd that assault is about to dive bomb.
"I" would be the problem. Not only would I be wasting my time and ammo for things that would have been killed anyway, but I would be stopping the assault from regaining his ability.
And it would be reverse if assault tried to dive bomb a crowd i was already mowing down.
This comes off as you got you out done by someone with a grenade launcher, and you got salty about it.
You're just arguing in bad faith lol.
Your ability to kill hordes is irrelevant.
The issue is that no matter what weapon setup you use no matter what class you play as,
Absolutely nothing compares to the GL + Auspex's ability to kill bosses in mere seconds.
And you know damn well it's not about horde clearing.
you know damn well that it's not about 'synergy'
Do me a favour, try killing a boss or group of extremis enemies or a terminus with your heavy bolt rifle + auspex in the same amount of time as you kill them with the GL + auspex.
Try to do it with an assault but without the auspex, since the assault obviously doesn't have one.
a sniper.
a heavy.
A bulwark.
A vanguard.
Absolutely none of these classes, except for exclusively in situations where they have a tactical using auspex scan for them.
Can kill a boss in even 1/4th the time as a auspex + GL. And even then they are closer to equal in speed, if not slower still.
"Is the pentration a crutch for me? Obviously not, I just know how to allocate my perks." No one claims it is, so stop making up arguments that no one is making.
"This comes off as you got you out done by someone with a grenade launcher, and you got salty about it." no one gives a damn about endgame stats except you.
The issue is that when people see a bossfight they want to have fun, not just watch a cutscene of a tactical spamming a GL.
@Gary_The_Metro I'm not making any arguments in bad faith. you're just taking them that way.
I've taken on multiple extreme and up enimies as assualt and come out on top, lictors, raveners, nurothrops, terminators, hellbrutes, and sorcerers, ect ect.
It may not be about the crowd clearing for you, but it is for me.
Each of us plays the game for a different reason. you're just trying to justify taking away someone else's way of playing the game for "your" reason.
That's why we pick the classes we pick and go into different playstyles.
Some are good at clearing crowds, and others are good at big single target damage. Some are better than others, and I dont expect to be able to compete with Sniper for taking out single targets or competing with tactical in long distance combat or bulwark in soaking damage.
My job as assault is to smack the enimies good and hard and tenderize them so it's easier for my teammates to bring them down.
Tjat being said I greatly enjoy when there are a ton of enimies, because I can just start spaming my ground slam, killing almost everything majoris and extremis included because the number of minors just regenerates the ability for me.
Alot of people still say assault it bad just because they don't know how to play it, same way people are saying tactical with gl is bad because they are just shitty teammates.
I can easily get even the largest enimies down to half heath by myself.
In this very specific scenario, I do something my class is normal, not capable of doing.
Just like tactical, in very specific circumstances that can cause a lot of damage to a small group of enemies, or one very big enemy.
Which is part of the tactical role in the first place.
Killing things like the hive tyrant isn't remotely hard as any class.
Even not having tactical at all, a good team could have it dead in less than 30 seconds. As long as sniper snipes, I assualt, and any other class is doing what they are supposed to be doing.
@@charlesmorton9845 "I've taken on multiple extreme and up enimies as assualt and come out on top, lictors, raveners, nurothrops, terminators, hellbrutes, and sorcerers, ect ect." yeah, and? there's nothing wrong with coming out on top. the issue is trivializing them into just spamming a few GL's. How is this too hard for you to understand?
no one is saying "Hey you should simply lose as soon as a group of extremis enemies show up" but there is quite a difference between hitting your headshots, hitting your parries, hitting your perfect dodges, and
pressing Q once and spamming left mouse button a few times while looking in the general direction of your target.
"My job as assault is to smack the enimies good and hard and tenderize them so it's easier for my teammates to bring them down.
Tjat being said I greatly enjoy when there are a ton of enimies, because I can just start spaming my ground slam, killing almost everything majoris and extremis included because the number of minors just regenerates the ability for me."
Yeah, which is a specific scenario that only works if the enemy is clustered together and you are given a good opportunity to do so. It's specifically good against hordes of targets with low healthpools.
The tactical's GL spam especially when combined with an auspex is good against everything.
The tactical's GL spam is something he can do whenever and if he does run out somehow he'll have full ammo again within 30 seconds. And the auspex doesn't have a very long cooldown either.
"Alot of people still say assault it bad just because they don't know how to play it, same way people are saying tactical with gl is bad because they are just shitty teammates. "
No one is saying tactical with GL is bad.
They're saying tactical with GL is overpowered and makes the game unfun to play. This also isn't about assault, which is a very good class. The assault still cannot do anything close to what the tactical can.
"Killing things like the hive tyrant isn't remotely hard as any class."
correct, but not a single class can solo a hive tyrant in 10 seconds.
"Even not having tactical at all, a good team could have it dead in less than 30 seconds. As long as sniper snipes, I assualt, and any other class is doing what they are supposed to be doing"
Okay so a complete team optimized towards single target damage can do in 30 seconds what a single tactical can do in 10.
And you don't see the issue here?
If the single tactical does it in 30 if he absolutely min maxes everything towards damage? sure. More reasonable. arguably still a bit too powerful, but more reasonable.
10? no.
The reason I say you're arguing in bad faith is because you are choosing to ignore the issue that people are mentioning and instead hyperfocusing on stats and an illusion of "well other classes are powerful too therefore there can't be an issue with the GL"
Even though you know damn well that the GL + auspex is objectively more powerful than literally every other alternative. That's not even an opinion, it simply is.
Nothing you can bring to the table in the entire game, compares in raw damage per second.
Problem is if saber dares to nerf it (even if it is heavily deserved) you'll get another batch of crying little shits screaming about "OMG HELLDIVERS 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and review bombing again.
Also 7:05 this has been true from the start, people absolutely refuse to learn the game's core mechanics, and then complain that the game is too hard.
They'll use 50% of the tools in their arsenal and then complain that a balance change made the 50% of the tools that they exclusively used 5% worse.
If I had a euro for every moron tactical, vanguard, or sniper that is convinced that they don't have to use melee ever in any scenario...
I'd have a very nice house.
I've been leveling this weapon up and I get what you're saying but I pretty much only use the grenades on hoards and sometimes forget about them all together lol 😂
But I feel what you are saying
Even at artificer it‘s already boring to play. it‘s the only weapon I stoppen leveling because it‘s way to strong.
As someone who cleared all of the Lethal Missions pre patch pretty much solely because I used the grenade bolter I definitely agree that the weapon is ridiculous, I probably could've cleared lethals with a good enough team but I've even carried level 5s through lethals because of how insane that gun is which I'm pretty sure I'm not good enough to do without it. In lethal I cleared a Carnifex before it could get off more than 1 attack total because I had auspex off cooldown, popped it and shot 10 nades right at it's skull. He did that shooting attack so he was in place for the entire time so it was a free kill. He even *hit* me with one of his shots which took half of my health but since I was launching nades at him I instantly gained all of the damage back, literally relegated to a 15 second fight. Makes me wish the Astartes nade launcher was that good on tabletop lmfao.
Anyway, I think a capacity cap is definitely in order, or maybe even make Vengeance not replenish Auxiliary ammo similar to how the ammo caches can't anymore. I think there's something to be said that modern audiences are not healthily partaking in the discourse on how a game should be balanced, in my opinion this was caused because of Helldivers 2, there were 2 weapons that were insanely powerful and put everything else to shame, they were nerfed which was a good thing, but then they took it a step too far by nerfing even more which really impacted the game in a negative way. Now it's like everyone has nerf anxiety or something you can't say the word without people saying "no, the player should NEVER be nerfed in a pve game." I've even seen this mentality pop up with Space Marine 2 when that nerf was implemented, and with the whole patch as a whole. Don't get me wrong lethals with that mechanic was an awful idea, but the other armor nerfs and everything imo weren't that bad, it helped make the game stay pretty challenging. I'm just hoping with the blowback from that update (and the subsequent review bombing which I will condemn doing when a patch didn't go your way till the day I die) isn't going to discourage them from taking real looks at how the game is balanced, because having a challenging pve mode is going to keep me coming back.
@mad0hattr 100% agree to the discussion of balancing. It's weird to see people so against things being nerfed even if it healthy for the game. The same can be said about Auspex and Melta Bombs being nerfed. Before, you would just combine them and kill a boss instantly and there's no way that that is a good place for the game to be in. Auspex is still crazy strong on bosses and melts are fantastic for horde and extremis clears.
I don’t think it needs as heavy handed of a nerf in how it functions, the grenades just need to not benefit as much from auspex and not refill the entire reserves from Emperor’s Vengeance. Alternatively, they could just reduce the damage that the grenades do to bosses like how it already is for plasma charged shots as part of a nerf.
Tactical could also use a tiny buff to all the other primaries it has access to, as currently only the melta, plasma incinerator, bolt rifle, and bolt rifle w/gl are worth using.
Both the stalker bolt rifle and the bolt carbine are already the worst choices for Sniper, and on tactical you have none of the perks that allow them to at least be mildly functional. Only reason to ever use either is if you want to level them and someone is already playing sniper.
The auto and heavy bolt rifles both sacrifice range and accuracy (which is already at a damn premium) for rate of fire and slightly more mag size and ammo. You already get the best of both worlds in the artificer tier versions of the regular bolter, no need to make yourself almost as inaccurate as hip firing a plasma incinerator.
I think the best and biggest tell that a Tactical is being crutched by the BRGL is when they are playing and then go down after no more grenades or spam them in a group others are fighting as you suggested. You can inmideiately tell that without the BRGL, they can't do anything and that has a high chance for the team to lose. I personally think the GL should be limited to 4, but get a full refill from EV. I wouldn't be opposed though to EV only giving back 3 per say and having a max of 5.
Once this weapon is nerfed, I think most if not every weapon will be in a great place, minus the Stalker and Bolt Sniper Rifle having their ammo regernation perks be kind of wonky and not work the greatest.
Here's an idea, let's compromise.
Let's nerf GL, but only for Lethal/Ruthless.
That way hardcore players can keep the challenge, and casual players can keep their "fun" OP toys.
But hmmm something tells me casuals won't accept that for some reason, it's almost like they want to trivialize the hardest difficulty, and refuse to play on lower difficulty where everyone, not just them is OP.
Almost like an ego thing.
Or maybe it's a skill issue of people not knowing how to properly sinergies with the teammates they have.
This whole video is just him not knowing how to play around and with his teammates.
@@charlesmorton9845
Oh yeah lets ground slam and get kills for cooldown. *Thunk
oh... hey lets execute these 4 warriors and get health armor and cooldown.. thunk. Never mind.. oh boy a extremis. Scan. Thunk x11. Wow what a fight I'm glad I was here as a spectator
It's fine. If you feel it's OP and makes the game un-fun just don't use it.
Most players playing over substantial are still considerate enough to ensure they leave executions for other party members.
Below that you get greedy players regardless of the weapons they use.
The problem is that " If you feel it's OP and makes the game un-fun just don't use it." it's not about you not using it, it's about others effectively not getting to play the game.
A tactical shows up in your lobby with auspex and a GL? he can kill the helldrake bossfight in the same amount of time it takes you to finish an execution.
Do you think that's fun for the teammates?
Or a bunch of extremis enemies show up, *thump thump thump* and it's gone. You didn't get to do anything, you didn't get to enjoy a fun fight, you just watched the equivalent of a cutscene.
Just don't use it, stop ruining everyone's fun
Did you ever consider that the people spamming the GL and killing an entire boss in less than 10 seconds could be unfun for other people?
It's not like people exclusively use this in private lobbies.
"Stop ruining everyone's fun" you 1 hit killing everything is only fun for you. If I see 4 terminus enemies show up and they are gone before i can even finish my execution animation on a majoris, do you think that's fun for me? or the other squadmate?
@@Gary_The_Metro Dude stfu. I have a few hundred hours in this game and have maxed every class and I've never seen the GL be an issue. It's not a big deal in co-op game.
@@MM-js4nf I love how every moron with a bad opinion has to precede his bad take with: "EHM I HAVE HUNDRED+ HOURS AND MAXED EVERY CLASS" cool. Your dogshit opinion isn't any less dogshit for it.
"I've never seen the GL be an issue" Cool, I have. Multiple times.
As have many others.
"It's not a big deal in a co-op game" Yes, it is. If some dude with a GL runs up and kills every enemy do you think that's going to be much fun for everyone else?
Go run private lobbies on minimal difficulty if you want to 1 hit kill everything.
@@MM-js4nf I love how every creature with a godawful take on the game has to precede his godawful take with: "I HAVE HUNDREDS OF HOURS AND MAXED OUT EVERY CLASS AND I SOLO RUTHLESS AND MY MOMMY CALLS ME HER SPECIAL BOY AND I AM SO SUPER GOOD"
Cool, I don't care dude.
Your opinion is just as garbage as it would be if you were a level 1 with 10 hours in the game.
"I've never seen the GL be an issue" Cool, I don't care what you have seen as an issue.
the GL auspex combo is objectively more powerful than all other weapons. that's not my opinion, that's just hard weapon stats.
" It's not a big deal in co-op game." if your basis for any opinion has to revolve around it being a co-op game, it's probably a bad argument.
It's a co-op game. So everyone should have fun, not just the moron spamming his grenade launcher.
You want to 1 hit kill everything? go play in a private lobby on minimal difficulty, I don't care. You are not the only person in this co-op game, so when one person is capable of just killing every target before his teammates can get a chance to have any fun at all, that's a problem.
@Gary_The_Metro it only happened to me one time, and when I do it I'm always overshadowed by a heavy with a multi melta or plasma, its not an issue, its fun and help u get through bosses in higher difficulties when you get swarmed, nothing needs nurfing
It fun omg lets nerf it. Completed lethal orginal with a bulwark solo now thats a crutch still does not need fixed.
No, it's not fun.
@@Viktor_Johansson Sounds like you have a skill issue
@@Mark-yq1lb Nah,. just a fun issue when noobs use the noob launcher.
Greta video and correct on all fronts. Patch 4.0, I did a mission as Tac with articifer BRGL and it was piss easy and that only had 6 grenades and did much less damage.
the only thing they need to do is giving self damage like grenades, because spamming at melee distance is op. with that u will only doit range and be more careful. its so abius that will change the gameplay soooooo much and with some delay within the spamming shot gg u got the right amount of nerfing.... leave a like and follow if u like it i have a shit architecture channel... :) help me.
the grenade launcher is boring but i like having the option every now and then. i agree with all the points made but i think buffing the bolter so the grenade launcher isnt the main focus of the weapon would be good. reloading 9 grenade and saving an execute to wipe out hoard after hoard with no worries robs everyone of gameplay. but i like going down to easier levels and using it and feeling immortal but then all the guns are good in easier levels too.
Sounds like a heretic propaganda that made this video…
Anyone who doesn't think this needs adjusting is a dribbler. I can solo lethal missions with ease with Tac GL. Other classes, much harder.
It is downright obnoxious playing with a teammate who knows how to use this gun. It throws off the balance and mechanics of the game.
Getting 3 grenades back from an execute would be fair, and it would still remain very strong.
@@CasterLeonne no one gives a shit if you can solo lethal. I but the game for fun, not sweat my ass off trying to be as good as you. Keep playing solo and leave us alone
@fiddyfresh7350 it's to point out it is far stronger than any other set up you mong. It trivializes the hardest mode in the game and is annoying as hell on your team. Why don't you just stick to substantial or whatever and use whatever you want and get tonnes of kills?
You either don't know how to use it properly, or you don't care and want to be top of the kill count at the expense of your team #muhpowerfantasy 🤡
@@fiddyfresh7350 Unsurprisingly you missed the point. Of course no one cares. The point is it is far more powerful than any other setup, trivializing even the hardest challenge in the game
Playing with a tac who knows how to use this trivializes any mode, breaks the game's mechanics, ignores balance, and makes it miserable for teammates.
You either don't know how to use it, or you do, and are just being selfish and want to no-brain your way to victory while feeling good about your killcount at the expense of your team.
Go play with any gun in average mode and feel like a god if you want to maintain #muhpowerfantasy 🤡
@ again, that’s your experience, not everyone and especially not mine. I played with a rando using GL on lethal and it saved runs. I’ve used it when I had to carry level 9 randoms through ruthless and lethals. GL is the “oh shit” button you push if you don’t wanna waste time getting wiped 20 minutes into a run.
Like I said before, if you don’t like it go play solo. I’d rather play with randos so I need that Oh-shit button to be there when my team sucks.
@@fiddyfresh7350
you realize if they nerfed the ammo gained it would be used for oh shit moments instead of just shooting it will nilly and wiping out everything?
I’m the reason for many of the people I’ve played with for being able to clear lethal. For which not one person in hundreds of matches has ever had one complaint. No one has ever said, Chris, you’re ruining it for me, please stop.
Today it’s gl, yesterday it was the melta rifle, the week before the multi melta.
It’s always going to be something with elitist crowd, like you, talking about skill level. Its a game, let people enjoy it. If you don’t like it, play with your friends and don’t use it.
"Today it’s gl, yesterday it was the melta rifle, the week before the multi melta. "
The melta was bugged, it was never nerfed stop crying about it. It's damage was never changed, it's range was never changed, it kills things exactly as effectively as before.
They simply fixed a bug (that also applied to other weapons).
"It’s always going to be something with elitist crowd, like you, talking about skill level. Its a game, let people enjoy it"
Exactly, it's a game let people enjoy it.
So let the other people on their team, enjoy the game too.
Does it sound fun to you to just walk behind someone and not get to play the game at all? Someone just has to spam his little GL and everything infront of you dies?
Oh you got a cool bossfight? wrong.
Auspex + GL and now the hellbrute/carnifex/neurothrope is gone.
Hive tyrant? yea sorry mate you don't get to fight it.
Helldrake? 10 seconds, all it takes.
Group of extremis shows up? sorry mate *thump thump thump* So fun dude.
" If you don’t like it, play with your friends and don’t use it." If you don't like it, go play minimal difficulty with your friends.
See how that's a bad argument?
You lot are the biggest elitist crowd there is.
Anyone dares suggest they want to have fun in the game too and you start screaming at them.
@babutaterbuggrimm6678 agree, I'm having fun, my team mates are having fun, if they aren't they can kick me out of the mission, if I'm not having fun i can leave the mission, I had a lot of people add me and ask me to help them clear higher difficulties with them, its fun and everyone is enjoying it except a sour bunch of few
No
4 Grenades like the graphics suggest sound good to me. It can still wipe a cluster of Majoris. But it's called auxiliary grenade launcher. It should be a side dish, not the main course. It's literally 500% better then any other weapon, its so OP it's just stupid. If you cry from all the reasonable calls to nerf it, just learn to play the game please. Try some solo missions and practice timing and develop game sense.
GL absolutely needs a nerf, yes, even in a pve environment
Aside from the explosive reload bug it's fine. Taking 3 grenades just to put a majoris into the execute state with a relic weapon is not what I would call a crutch. I'd much rather see the bolters get even more damage buffs.
3 grenades without an auspex, it's the combination of auspex + GL that's the issue. But unless you want to nerf the auspex hard which will affect all weapons not just the GL combo.
If you got the right perk setup with an auspex you need 1 grenade to put majoris into executable, maybe 2 depending on your weapon perk setup. And mind you this is any majoris enemy in range of the grenade's explosion, so those 1 or 2 grenades isn't just 1 majoris usually. It's an entire group.
If you're using auspex + GL on a boss like the hive tyrant or helldrake, you can get the hive tyrant into his second phase in about 8-10 grenades, and the helldrake you can kill outright with 10-ish grenades.
Did you even watch the video? he specifies that it's about the auspex + GL not just the GL.
Also, no every other weapon should not be buffed more to match the BRGL, at that point, Lethal difficulty will be just as easy as minimal. The hardest difficulty should not feel the same as the lowest and if players want that, all I can think of is delusions of grandure and entitlement. Nothing should be so good that it trivializes the hardest difficulty.
Problem ? Really is it a problem in PvE non competive game where you can mod shit out of it (legaly btw) ? Devs should realy stop listening people like you. Today it is GL, tommorow will be what ?
OP? Are you a Tyranid? No? Then what does it matter!!??? Stop with this Nonesense. I get you want to make money, but not at the expense of our enjoyment man. It's a co-op game. Let it be.
If he really wanted to make money, he would just appease the plebs by saying what they want to hear instead of giving his own thoughts.
The mental gymnastics that the BRGL defenders have to perform to cope is just unreal lmfao.
Did you ever consider that the people spamming the GL and killing an entire boss in less than 10 seconds could be unfun for other people?
It's not like people exclusively use this in private lobbies.
"But not at the expense of our enjoyment" you 1 hit killing everything is only fun for you. If I see 4 terminus enemies show up and they are gone before i can even finish my execution animation on a majoris, do you think that's fun for me? or the other squadmate?
It's a co-op game. So when one class can ruin the game for the rest of the lobby that's an issue.
I don't want to have to kick tacticals by default if I want to actually experience the game's bossfights.
@@Gary_The_Metro Well said!
This is a hilariously bad take for a co-op game and I don't even use the thing.
Just because it's a co-op game doesn't mean balance shouldn't exist you god damn moron.
What is with you guys complaining about meta builds. Just don’t use it, play pistols only and stfu
I'm going to be the devil's advocate here. The real problem is Emperor's Vengeance. With and without it's bugs. The fact that rifle grenades have soo much utility against majors and extremis, combined with the fact you recover a full complement of them every 30 seconds is putting huge pressure on the scales of balance in the Grenade Rifle scale, and the Tactical's favor across class balance. Assault and Vanguard really struggle to compare with the damage output of tactical with Auspex Scan anyway, but also just in competing with Tactical's ammunition sustain. I would absolutely agree with a reduction in rate of fire, and a reduction in ammo, but Emperor's Vengeance is a huge balance issue for the other classes to deal with in operations mode.
EV should not be hit. It doesn't fix the actual issue and ends up hurting every other weapon that Tactical has instead of only targeting the GL. This is why a mag hit to a max of 4 grenades keeps the weapon useful in a pinch, but doesn't allow it to be spammed indefinitely. EV isn't talked about being a problem with any other weapon except for BRGL signifying that that weapon is the only real issue.
Its fun it doesn't need a nerf other than maybe reducing the damage it does to terminus enemies and bosses.
No nerfs devs should create an enemy that its not effective against so players have an actual threat to their survival I don't play tac so i don't care but i don't think a nerf is the answer At least damage wise ive had people complain about me getting 6-7 ground pounds in a row because i get ability recharge from kills executions and headshots when playin with sniper and vangaurd
this "no nerfs" attitude people have is braindead.
You all thought it was a good idea in helldivers, it isn't.
Let's do a hypothetical here.
Devs add a "kill everything on the map" button. It's just a 1 button press and has a 30 seconds cooldown.
Only one person on your team gets it and he gets to use it whenever he wants every 30 seconds. it simply 1 hit kills everything.
Does this sound fun to you?
does this sound like a fun experience for the teammates of that player?
No?
Then stop claiming that no nerfs is some kind of good idea.
"At least damage wise ive had people complain about me getting 6-7 ground pounds in a row because i get ability recharge from kills executions and headshots when playin with sniper and vangaurd"
Cool, but you can't do that against a boss. Which is the core of the issue. Did you even watch the video?
You even claim yourself you don't play tac so you don't even understand the problem.
A tactical with a GL and auspex can kill a boss like the helldrake or hellbrute or carnifex or neurothrope in less than 10 seconds.
@Gary_The_Metro first off I've maxed all classes and have all the weapons in relic tier and I did tac first.
second chill out nerd
all I said was that I didn't think a nerf for the damage was a good idea and I wasn't even complaining about anything
plus as an assault fighting bosses I don't need to jump 6-7 times I parry and perfect dodge for gun strikes and get armor back while dealing damage and holding agro so the tactical can auspex and kill it like a teammate should not trying to solo the whole operation like I'm playing with bots
You don't benefit from doing better than anyone else let tactical keep it's nuts
And while you're at it stay off mine 😉
@@corbincompton2966 "kill it like a teammate should not trying to solo the whole operation like I'm playing with bots " Which is exactly like you're suggesting the tactical should be able to do lmfao.
You're literally suggesting to let the situation stay as is, and thus be able to solo the entire boss as if his teammates are bots.
"first off I've maxed all classes and have all the weapons in relic tier and I did tac first. "
The universal statement by those with bad takes.
"EHM I'VE UNLOCKED EVERYTHING 💅💅" Damn bro doesn't make your opinion less garbage.
"You don't benefit from doing better than anyone else let tactical keep it's nuts"
The tactical that will still be an incredibly powerful class can take a minor nerf to it's grenade launcher capacity. If you think that will make the tactical "lose it's nuts" you simply don't know how to play the tactical. Having all weapons at relic doesn't make you good at the game.
You also didn't really counter a single one of the things I said, you have no actual arguments.
All you did is whine about not being able to solo a boss as an assault so super easily, like... yeah? that's normal?
It's of course possible to solo a boss, but it shouldn't ever be easy.
How about you chill out nerd and let the game be fun for everyone instead of just tacticals.
Can't do that? play a different game.
@@corbincompton2966 "FiRsT oFf I'Ve MaXeD aLl ClaSsEs aNd HaVe AlL ThE wEaPoNs In ReLiC tIeR"
Why does every mong with a garbage take start off with this sentence? You could be the first player that completed every achievement in the game, got everything in PVP and PVE to max level before anyone else, and your opinion would still be completely equally garbage.
"All I said was that I didn't think a nerf for the damage was a good idea and I wasn't even complaining about anything" and no one in the video mentioned damage. They mentioned ammo capacity and ammo regeneration. Give the tac it's big boom stick, but don't give it nigh-unlimited ammo and the damage equivalent of 11 krak grenades.
"
plus as an assault fighting bosses I don't need to jump 6-7 times I parry and perfect dodge for gun strikes and get armor back while dealing damage and holding agro so the tactical can auspex and kill it like a teammate should not trying to solo the whole operation like I'm playing with bots" Okay??
Yeah that's the point, that it shouldn't be that the tactical just has the equivalent of 2 bot teammates that are just along for the ride.
Ever heard of fun? it's kind of an important part of games. Just following someone around that nukes everything infront of you before you can even do anything and ends a bossfight before you can even enter combat range isn't fun for anyone.
"You don't benefit from doing better than anyone else let tactical keep it's nuts "
And no one said anything about "doing better than others" no one CARES about doing better than others except maybe you. Whine at someone else with your strawman arguments.
So unless you have the reading comprehension to actually make a single valid argument about anything I've said, you should probably chill out nerd.
@@corbincompton2966 " first off I've maxed all classes and have all the weapons in relic tier and I did tac first. " the moronic sentence started by every fool with a bad take on the game. I don't care how much you have unlocked, your opinion is no less garbage for it.
"all I said was that I didn't think a nerf for the damage was a good idea and I wasn't even complaining about anything" Neither did anyone suggest it in the video.
The suggestion was to reduce it's total ammo pool and reduce how much ammo you gain from a specific perk. You know, not giving the tactical access to the equivalent of 11 krak grenades.. every 30 seconds...
" plus as an assault fighting bosses I don't need to jump 6-7 times I parry and perfect dodge for gun strikes and get armor back while dealing damage and holding agro so the tactical can auspex and kill it like a teammate should not trying to solo the whole operation like I'm playing with bots "
Cool, you're making my own argument for me smartass. A teammate should not solo the whole operation like he's playing with bots.
As in, one teammate should not be able to clear the entire operation with 0 skill needed beyond pressing left mouse button a few times and going *thump thump thump*
None of what you have said, disputes any of my points. If I didn't know any better I'd question you are capable of reading.
"You don't benefit from doing better than anyone else" nice strawman argument.Tactical's grenade launcher being mildly less effective will still leave it as objectively one of the most powerful classes in the game. But the game should be fun for all classes, not just tacticals. It's a game, don't like it when your teammates have fun too and not just you? go play something else, nerd.