I think Blizzard should make a PVP version of Exile's Reach, where it teaches like the basic of PVP, like DR, kick/fake kick, defensive usage when the enemy uses CD, LOS, and some other things along with the essential stuff integrated to the base game.
People don't talk about this much, but having this much UI on screen is also insanely immersion breaking. It looks and feels more like piloting a mech than playing a fantasy RPG.
i dont play the game to be a fantasy rpg. I dont feel immersed. i play the game for fast paced decision making and the dopamine hits when your gameplay feels rewarding. Automation as being talked about int his video should be disallowed.
The barrier to entry isn’t the addons it’s the fact so much stuff is going on that you must have these addons to function. The game is too advanced for people who aren’t already invested into the game.
@@meattwinkie6208so a new player with 0 addons showing all those things going on puts them at even more of a disadvantage then it would if everyone was on the same playing field of no addons, come on man, don’t make me spell it out for you
@@twizzyggwp i mean researching how to craft and which pieces to craft and which conquest gear to turn into tier and what bloody tokens gear is BiS over conquest and crafted gear… i have no problem playing the game but i miss the days of let’s say MoP when pvp gear was pvp gear and that was BiS
@@twizzyggwp Gearing in pve would be "playing the game", but in PvP gearing is much faster and playing the game would be to push rating or just chill in battlegrounds not gearing itself
I remember when gladiatorlossa came out and suddenly people with potato positioning and awareness suddenly were aware of cds. They weren't even aware the player was in the arena but could respond to cooldowns.
As someone who got into PvP in WoW in the last few years, the learning curve has been absolutely bonkers. I really appreciate you advocating for new and returning players!! ❤
Depending on your goal... nah, tons of 3k+ rio people out there who only use details at best and maybe plater or bigwigs but thats it, people been playing with DBM/BW since the dawn of time though, should've become baseline 20 years ago just like details should
@@kristiangleich2507 I mean, "just bigwigs" is kind of a stupid statement because of how much information BW puts out. Plus you have completely forgotten Weak Auras. I guarantee you every person at 3k io is us Weak Auras too--at least classes that take skill like healing and tanking. I'm pretty sure faceroll DPS classes can probably get to 3k without weak auras.
I don't know if this counts but I'm a casual arena player and got 1850 on two characters no add-ons period. So I know you can get somewhere but I fully agree with you! Love your content and seeing you guys at AWC!
Every time I take a break from the game it goes from "oh I'll just wait a patch" to "ehh actually I'll wait until next expansion" because of the need to audit my UI. I need to replace any addons that became deprecated, update my own scripts / weakauras, update settings for cooldown trackers, maybe find a new keybind because they added another rotational ability to my class, and so on. Layer this on top of all the class changes to be aware of and it's a daunting ask. I can't beg my friends to queue again when they need to do all this nonsense as well.
@@aceylaboy9773 I don't think you know what ''skill issue'' means my guy , no skill involved in downloading addons and editing a UI , it's just a pain in the ass that shouldn't exist in the first place.
@ you could've taken the time to learn what skill issue means but instead you re-affirmed that you didn't understand what the OP was saying but also that you still don't know wtf a skill issue is. It's not about doing it fast , it's about doing it in the first place. But congratulation , you can download cheats in 30 mins , i'm sure someone will be proud of you for that !
@ you right it’s not about doin it fast.. I don’t do it fast, but it’s not like being moved to a different job.. yall can’t even setup ui and addons and expect to get brought to end game raid prolly and quit when yall don’t get invited 💀
The addon creep over the year is actually exhausting as a casual player lol. It's crazy that addons have both lowered the baseline skill and awareness of players, but is also incredibly mandatory in order to compete at slightly higher ratings. You pretty much nailed it though, the game is very unwelcoming to new players especially in PVP where there is so much going on. Hopefully we see some changes, because I'd love to see more players. We need more baseline features so more people can actually learn what's actually going on and more people have a chance to participate without needing hours of prep just to get crushed in their 1st shuffle and get berated lol.
I never heard anyone talk about this, but i think its 1 of the core issues that could be improved to help the core of the issues improve (Buffs) think a design overhaul in terms of cosmetics in the game (Animations, cooldowns, ects) Is whats actually needed. Buff's are kind of a symptom of an issue with Blizzard not making the base-line annimations for spells unique, flashy/larger/vibrant enough to be easily noticable WITHOUT a giant buff to signify it. For instance, wings, you can barely see it while pvping. If it was larger, or the character transformed into the guardian of ancient kings instead, its OBVIOUS for a new player that they're bursting, you cant miss it. But just some low-teir transparent holy wings cant be seen enough, there's a BILLION cooldowns that visually are barely noctiable or far less than they should be, like evasion/blur just being...going transparent. With totems, pets, ect flying around, its much harder to tell.
Addons have helped kill arena, game would be way better without addons, even interrupt bar should be removed, blizzard should just have better sound effects and players should have to listen for those and track the cooldowns in their heads. It was a skill back in the day to be able to mentally track cooldowns.
With all class in retail think just to much track all cool down so think some level tracking especially keep adding classes. But get what saying miss those days
PvP to me feels scripted. My addon tells me you blew a big CD, therefore I match it. Or if my addon tells me your healer blew a big CD, I know not to use mine, and the second the CD is over, I use mine. It doesn't feel natural to a players sense of awareness.
Addons should only be cosmetic. Anything else should be considered cheating and prohibited by Blizzard. They are too lazy to identify and fix their issues though.
I hope blizzard doesn’t listen to the brain dead “people” on their forums the millions of actual players do everything to avoid. These losers worship addons.
THE MAJOR ISSUE is that the base ui is bugged doesn't track healer trinkets correctly, you can't track anything. The fact is OMNI CD should should be built into the base ui. The problem is the same problem that it has always been - Blizzard is clueless and not only do they not care they want the players to "fix" this stuff with addons.
Omnibar = Pavlovian Conditioning 😆 Thank for this video, honestly - I agree with 92% of what you are saying. I don't do addons therefore I also don't do Arena, Rated or Solo. I am not a "gifted" player - but I l Heart PvP, so I hang out in randoms without any addons. It is cool for me, but many people would like to grow out of randoms.
You are right, but realistically most people aren't playing at a high enough level for this to matter. It's tough to get a product on the roadmap that only affects the top x% of arena PVP players (small proportion of players overall), even though in the long run it might open up the competitive scene to more people (easier for shroud or somebody to hop on and start playing).
2100 is not casual. 1400 is casual. I get you see a lot of higher numbers than most but most players are not 2100 or higher. I have friends who dream of making it to 1800. You may as well have said let them eat cake. You elite players are out of touch with the average player and lack of average players is what is causing issues with the game.
At this point. I'd prefer Blizzard just rip the band aid off. Ban all addons, or only allow addons which read your own characters cooldowns. If people leave because they now suck without addons, fuck em.
DR should be in the UI togleable and default: ON. They should also be taught in the starting isle, VERY fundamental for both pve and pvp yet we cannot track it in the default UI after 21 years...
I have a different sight on it. Lets take bigdebuffs as an example : someone who played the game for many years can mention buffs like PS, PI or other stuffs immediately with the normal target or focus frame buffbar meanwhile a less experienced player doesnt have the same field of view and profits alot of addons like bigdebuffs. Blizzard just should start reworking the default UI for pvp and putting the features of the 4-5 most used addons in the default UI and for PvE its enough to stop designing boss abilites that require weakauras and an extern stream watching raidleader to solve the mechanics. Its not that addons or weakauras make the game more easy its just like blizzard designing boss mechanics that hard require weakauras to success.
Also: Boss difficulty design accounts for Addon use. If you're better at not standing in fire (because WA goat bleats when you do), Blizz has to come up with more complex mechanics to maintain practical difficulty (percentage of playerbase who manage to clear the content, probably). Now, add onto that, that we're playing a game that has been out for ages, has really wide skill distribution - you now have to introduce Mythic on top of Heroic. As a response, people develop smarter addons. Designers have to up the ante again. The cycle continues.
Another big problem about this is the frickin bloated and overwhelming UI even if its perfectly and cleanly set-up for a new player. They will be focusing on and trying to read every single icon popping up all over the screen instead of looking at the game. If the game gave good feedback to whats happening, people could much more easily learn to focus on posiitoning and awareness of what everyone is actually doing. (Basically looking at the characters and not icons...) Its so crazy to me that only after 2.4 cr you start to see people being aware of these things. Its like %90 of the players are looking at the icons and addons on their UI instead of the arena itself...
I definitely agree. For the longest time when i had first started playing wow I saw add-ons as kind of cheating. So i didn't download them for a long time. Now I only use cosmetic stuff like a bag add on, details and scrap to sell your junk. The amount of add ons for pvp has gotten so extreme, I still do ok and i don't use anything to track interrupts or cd's. Its really like that person your fighting isn't actually playing the way it was intended. Should just remove all add ons and Blizzard should do there job and make the UI better. They are so used to trying to make stupid stuff like Siren Isle what was even the point of that, I only went out there for one day because its not even neccessary.
As a long-time player, my usage of addons has been minimum at best: I used Recount and Gladius when I actually 'tried' in Arena, that's about it. I downloaded DBM when attempting some raids in the earlier expansions. I'm a mediocre player on a good day, nothing great, nothing absolutely horrible - I just want to get through the story/base expansion content . The addon requirements in modern retail puts you at such a massive disadvantage if you don't take the time to learn about them, configure them, and get used to them. Personally, it detracts from the game experience. I'm fine being a LFR guy/casual delver/battleground player, but for folks newer to the game or folks who really want to excel within a particular mode of the game, be prepared to do some homework regarding addons.
100% agree with you I wish blizzard will make changes on this part of the game, by implamenting part of some addons as you said like kick trackers, cds trackers etc.. and hopefully it will help new players to have an easier time starting wow
@@badatdrawing5083 no joke... such an ugly viewing experience lol.. imagine them hearing about how immersive this fantasy MMORPG WoW is, and then they see this garbage
In PvP everyone should be even in regards to anything that helps with awareness, Blizz should put it into the game for everyone and no extra add-ons should be allowed in PvP
It's not profitable for Blizzard to remove addons coz: 1. They would lose a % of the player base. 2. They would have to hire people for improving and maintaining the default UI.
I suspect the amount of players that would opt into playing would outnumber those who'd quit. If you're very attached to your addons, chances are you're also attached to the game - unlikely to quit.
Blizzard will never remove addons and add them baseline. Creates a stupid amount of work for them that is currently being done for free by the community, on top of pleasing an extremely small percentage of players and making everyone else angry.
@@itstsmith what i mean is some work is being done to reduce the necessity of addons, i wouldnt be surprised after some time when a lot of improvements have already been made to the game, that they would pull the plug on addons.
It's not just add-ons... I think Add-ons are a consequence of how the game has become honestly. There's too many things from your enemies that need to be tracked, there's too many things from your allies that you need to be aware of, and, there's too many things for you to do. The game has too much button bloating derived from everything you have and need to use to keep par with everything. It's too much, at least in my opinion. With that being said, of course I believe add-ons are also taking way too much from the game, and also it doesn't help that Blizzard looks like they're developing the game around what they know add-ons can do, to make it even more difficult, which is fundamentally wrong. It's all connected...
I was kind of against this stance in the past, with the reasoning of "other players can download addons too if they want", but after seeing in-house weak aura crafters in basically every top end pve guild, and now apparently also for pvp teams as well, its well past the point of ridiculous. Blizzard should have been MUCH more proactive about incorporating the good/necessary addons or weakauras into the game, at least as options You're also right about it being hard for returning players, Im not even remotely new to this game, and it was like walking into a brick wall after taking a few expansions off to play classic when I came back for TWW.
I'm all for removing every single addon except the arena frames one that shows people in CC's. But then, that could just be made by Blizzard and part of the base game anyway.
As a long time but terrible pvp’er I won’t make excuses that I’m bad because of addons but I do agree with everything said. We see it in pve, it’s a game of information and reactions. I see a pop up and I react to it. On top of all the reasons in the video, as a player it’s also just not fun spending every match just waiting for pop up alerts.
The barrier to entry for new players is buying the game + a sub fee, if you get past that then you gotta level a character which for a new player can take a while. Then you get to max level if you don't end up liking your class you will probably quit. Most Addons should be removed but they are more of the barrier to the endgame not necessarily to new players. If you wanna fix the new player experience you probably just need to remove leveling (in retail its pointless) or atleast start people at the current xpac so like start at 70, learn your abilities while going to 80.
Most addons are just compensating for Blizzard's poor UI. How do you expect players not to DR stun someone without an addon to track DR's? Are we supposed to count to 18 every time we see someone stunned? That isn't realistic. Are people supposed to fake cast forever because default UI doesn't show enemy kicks? Addons are a good thing until Blizzard build more into the default UI.
Yeah I've come back to wow every expansion since legion, but always end up quitting after I'm done levelling.. Once it sinks in that these fundamental flaws are still present.
It's not just that it's bad for the players but it's also bad for the viewers. If you don't play wow and you watch someone streaming pvp or pve, the screen is cluttered with way too much information that people just can't even contend with.
Unfornately there are people like me who are disabled (in my case eye sickness) that need WA's, addons, sound. People that want to remove all addons, do not understand that some people also want to play the game but are disabled like me and need assistent from those addons. Obviously all those cheataddons lke the one in the current video should be out. Not that anyone care what I say here, but felt like sharing anyway.
I guess you didn’t understand his point he wants things to become more baseline visible and not need all the addons he isn’t saying that needs to be taken away but he wants these addons that tell you exactly what to do in every situation taken away
The only way it would actually work, is to slow down the game + restrict some addons. The game is waay too fast and that is the reason we all installed addons. They just need to make it in-game feature for all the people to have it once they install the game, that's why I think skillcapped is on to something with their setup.
I love addons, but it's definitely gotten way out of control. I hope one expansion they just announce that combat addons will be severely limited, along with a bunch of built in features to allow us to still track rotational stuff. I think it would be hated, but long-term it would be the correct move.
On live Cata I found a WA or addon that sounded an alarm and had a spell reflect icon pop up in the middle of the screen whenever any CC or big dmg spell was incoming and it was the day wow pvp died for myself.
The overall visual clarity of the game is atrocious too. So many pets and summons and gigantic particle effects. I could do without literally all of that and a lot of the games nonsense passives racking up tons of damage and healing
I recently got back into wow with completionism as a primary goal. I used to be a fairly hardcore pvper between BC and Wrath (Duelist rank). I couldnt be *fucked* to get back into PvP with how it is. It looks so god damn unapproachable its insane. The addon bloat is hideous. I remember grinding things like Battlemaster back in the say and loving the journey and man, its a shame I dont even want to touch pvp with how it is now.
Instead of revamping it in whole they should make a PvP toggle and Pve Toggle. So you can just toggle between PvP addons and pve. Just like when you turn on war mode. As soon as you click warmode your PvP addons should activate
The only way I'm subbing again to play WoW is if Blizzard gets rid of addons, so stupid having to rely on 3rd party tools to do anything, all the game is already designed with DBM, Omni bars, Weak auras, etc... in mind.
they have to make the game simpler. a lot of spell and dmg pruning. So much passive stuff that deals dmg. Also if someone pops dmg cds, just give them an big glow animation so you see it instantly. Remove dmg buff stacking, if you take sub rogue for example or ele shamans that have to press 5 globals for a setup. make it a simpler rock/paper/scissors thing.
Addons is one of the reasons we stopped playing. Another reason the que timer for solo shuffle. But the main reason is the constant buffs or nerfs to a class. Why play a class or spec that will get nerfed every two weeks? Yt wow content creators love it though. Best pvp class, best fun class, this class is op etc etc
Hey guys we have great patch for your. look at the awesome things that it brings,: here is a new mount, new transmog, and new currency, oh yeah and new zone, so that you we ignore rest of the 99% of the map. what about fixing the game so its enjoyable to play, how about making story memorable, how about remove the god damm addons, how about no woke dei feminen over the top shit? Blizz, nah we dont have time for that. Ok fine, cancels the sub. And they all lived happily ever after
Getting RID of addons doesn't help the vast majority of people and especially hurts returning and new players. Repeatedly you say that addons "get rid of the skill element of tracking.." z y x, in other words they increase the accessibility of the game. What Blizzard should do is improve the functionality of the base UI and limit computational/decision making functionalities afforded by addons, but going further and just forcing a standard UI would be atrocious. Blizzard have repeatedly demonstrated that their own ideas for what a good UI is, is totally orthoganol to what the majority of competitive players use anyway.
See. Class identification. Rogues have kick, that's why its called kick. Its not called wind sheer or rebuke because other classes got it later. You know to expect to be interrupted because they have a rogue on the team, not because everyone can interrupt spells. If you simplify the kit of each class to be unique... as in functionally different from every other class... then you can learn what each one does and not need to track it all. I don't pvp in anything other than casuals because that screen right there is eyecancer.
The reason you can't see anything is because of how much clutter you have going on with your UI. The "skill of the game," as you put it, should *NEVER* involve having to fight your own UI... Back in Legion, I was responsible for coordinating our raid's cc on Mythic Aggramar-- meaning: as a DK, I had to track our chaos novas, frost novas, Earthbind totems, etc-- So let's not pretend tracking raid cds ONLY started recently. Preparation is a skill that is key to WoW.
Each addon scales the players knowledge level and therefore power level. I used to think omnibar felt like cheating when it first came out, but this is different, this IS cheating.
They need to simultaneously simplify PVP while removing most weakauras or it has 0 chance of drawing new players, not to mention the subscription and overlap between pvp/pve. To be frank, PVP should just have it's own separate server and balancing. The dream would be no sub, pvp server, separate balancing and gameplay from pvp, earnable transmogs of all types by marks of honor or currency, specific zone or dueling arena, rebuilt ranking system more like league/marvel rivals with rewards at each tier and end of season rewards. This way you can fully balance the PVP of arena/bgs without affecting PVE, you won't need talents that overlap with aoe/single target. You can tune down hp and damage to be completely different than PVE because you don't have to worry about raid/m+ mechanics. The player base just isn't large enough to draw any of this kind of attention from Blizz and that sucks :/
And what about ppl who play both pve and pvp? I get the rewards in PvE world too? And what about world pvp, sometimes its really fun if you met some angry guys who attack you and you can destroy them :)
They fixed gearing, spec balance is considerably much better than the older days... but what you are talknig about in this video is the most fundamental problem in wow gameplay that it seems so absurd to me that they havent really made any significant attempts at adding important information to the base UI and also bannnig addons...
Took me 3 months to be "comfortable" with those addons and I still 0% master it. I just understand how to use it..... (I play everyday) I 100% prefer the time where you were able to see a kick by its animation/sound, or knowing a rogue has blind by its movements etc It was pure skill and knowledge :')
Right, or like my disc priest. I just knew PW: Shield gave Borrowed time (haste). I didn't need anything to tell me that or track a buff. But now they introduce gems that demand a 'if then' statement tracking. IF you successfully juke an interrupt, THEN you get a free window to do X. You MUST have something to track that or how tf would you know in a busy bg.
While this is interesting, WeakAuras and TellMeWhen are no more powerful today than they were back in MoP. I remember getting 2200 in the last season of MoP on my mage which I played terribly just by making a single tellmewhen icon that glowed like crazy as soon as I had my trinket's spell power proc, 2 FoF procs, and 5 icicles, so I could Alter Time, fire them off, and Alter Time again to one-shot anyone with unhealable burst (~300% of their full health bar in 4 seconds). I did no damage and just kited around and polied until the icon glowed, then exploded them with no setup. This kind of addon technology isn't new. Why do you seem to imply it started in BFA or Shadowlands, when TellMeWhen and WeakAuras have been around and just as powerful since at least MoP, and possibly earlier? That all being said, I think a far larger barrier of entry is reaching max level, gearing up, and learning how to maximize the insane number of passives that are in the game now. Back in MoP and earlier, there were far fewer passive effects to consider, even if there were the same number of abilities, or even more in same cases. The "gearing up" aspect is huge. I hadn't played in BFA or Shadowlands, so I was missing a lot of the new information about arena gear. The ability to turn PvP gear into items with set bonuses and still have the arena item level is something I only figured out after like 6 weeks of playing at max level this expansion. I only understood how to apply an embellishment to an item several weeks after that! The Siren Isle ring says nothing on it about being reduced in PvP so I had to know to avoid using it in arena by getting information from outside the game. You can get gem sockets on your gear by spending an ungodly amount of honor and gold. Everyone seems to have all these weird gear hacks and it's not obvious how to apply them. I only learned about many of them by looking up players on drustvar and seeing these seemingly impossible effects. I even asked several players in-game how to get them and nobody could tell me. Why isn't gearing just straight-forward?
Why should you be able track the enemies abilities with a widget on your screen? In any other game that would be an absurd concept to even suggest. If you want to talk about abilities being visually and auditorily easier to track when they've been used, that's a different subject matter.
how do you call a software that tells you what is your opponent doing while you cant see it yourself? Which resource he have avaliable, predict his actions... - Other games "hack-cheat", - Wow "an addon". Skill cap? Id say skill issue
It’s more then just add ons at this point way back I saw many videos of scripts in game macros to set conditions so you can never be juked for interupts or stun stuns so no overlaps and u can just spam press they key while mashing away at a rotation. Combine that with these add ons that tell you everything it’s insane.
I love PVP and I love to play the game. But I stopped PVP'ing solely because I don't want to maintain 2 UI's. It's fun once it's all set up, but without it even as a veteran player it's just not fun. Like everyone plays perfect, and it makes it not fun. And even minor mistakes are now penalized heavily and better yet some hardcapped 1700 player going all volatile because you make a minor mistake. Whole other issue, but certainly this feeds in to that. That guy would never recognize the overarching macro match against the constant micro decisions without external tools
anyone who has played this game over 10 yrs doesnt need addons to play. we didnt have them bck then so we learned to play without them. i agree get rid of the addons only thing i need is wows raid frames thats it
Blizzard is just lazy they don't want to fix their shitty UI so they just leave for the community to create addons, every other game you can play without having to do all that extra configuration
So here is my issue with it. Sure, addons. But they're not solely responsible. The fact that gladiators, like Pika, Ven, you, Ziqo and Supa, thinks that 2100 is casual is the problem. Like.. I reached 2k when I tried my best and I know there are millions below me in rating. Like, I am usually 1800 or there about. 2100 for me is like living in wow. I have to try really hard to reach that. I feel that highrated players are super disconnected with the difficulty of wow pvp. And worst is. You get mocked at my rating. But it's like you think 2100 is the lowest rating there is.
I think Blizzard should make a PVP version of Exile's Reach, where it teaches like the basic of PVP, like DR, kick/fake kick, defensive usage when the enemy uses CD, LOS, and some other things along with the essential stuff integrated to the base game.
Thats actually a great idea. or before they join solo shuffle they have to do a tutorial like that
People don't talk about this much, but having this much UI on screen is also insanely immersion breaking. It looks and feels more like piloting a mech than playing a fantasy RPG.
i dont play the game to be a fantasy rpg. I dont feel immersed. i play the game for fast paced decision making and the dopamine hits when your gameplay feels rewarding. Automation as being talked about int his video should be disallowed.
Yeah remove addons, add the essential stuff to the base game, lowers the barrier of entry to PvP
True
The barrier to entry isn’t the addons it’s the fact so much stuff is going on that you must have these addons to function. The game is too advanced for people who aren’t already invested into the game.
@@meattwinkie6208so a new player with 0 addons showing all those things going on puts them at even more of a disadvantage then it would if everyone was on the same playing field of no addons, come on man, don’t make me spell it out for you
You literally regurgitated the first 3 minutes of his video and added nothing. Thanks for that bro.
@@SirPhilMcCrackinVonBeggingtonyou are welcome! Thanks for reading!
Everytime I get back to WoW that period where I have to figure out and setup all that BS is just a miserable experience
facts and the gearing
@@Nohea.e92gearing? For PvE players maybe.. PvP gearing is the easiest it’s ever been with solo shuffle and battleground blitz rated solo ques 😊
@@Nohea.e92 so besides addons you mean playing the game???
@@twizzyggwp i mean researching how to craft and which pieces to craft and which conquest gear to turn into tier and what bloody tokens gear is BiS over conquest and crafted gear… i have no problem playing the game but i miss the days of let’s say MoP when pvp gear was pvp gear and that was BiS
@@twizzyggwp Gearing in pve would be "playing the game", but in PvP gearing is much faster and playing the game would be to push rating or just chill in battlegrounds not gearing itself
Gonna make a weakaura that tracks my fake kicks and tells me to fake at a less common time.
Gonna make an addon that tracks your faking tendencies, compares it with your addons' algorythm and tells me how you're going to fake next.
I remember when gladiatorlossa came out and suddenly people with potato positioning and awareness suddenly were aware of cds. They weren't even aware the player was in the arena but could respond to cooldowns.
As someone who got into PvP in WoW in the last few years, the learning curve has been absolutely bonkers. I really appreciate you advocating for new and returning players!! ❤
As a PvE-er I 100% agree. It's absolutely insane that I need to download and play around all of these tools.
Depending on your goal... nah, tons of 3k+ rio people out there who only use details at best and maybe plater or bigwigs but thats it, people been playing with DBM/BW since the dawn of time though, should've become baseline 20 years ago just like details should
@@kristiangleich2507 youre coping if you think 3k+ rio people are only using details..
@@kristiangleich2507 I mean, "just bigwigs" is kind of a stupid statement because of how much information BW puts out. Plus you have completely forgotten Weak Auras. I guarantee you every person at 3k io is us Weak Auras too--at least classes that take skill like healing and tanking. I'm pretty sure faceroll DPS classes can probably get to 3k without weak auras.
@@SirPhilMcCrackinVonBeggington I mean, I healed up to 3k rio with just details & DBM. It’s not hard 🤷♂️
People will do anything except use their own eyes and brains.
I don't know if this counts but I'm a casual arena player and got 1850 on two characters no add-ons period. So I know you can get somewhere but I fully agree with you! Love your content and seeing you guys at AWC!
I've been saying this exact message since WoD , people even then went overboard on addons
Every time I take a break from the game it goes from "oh I'll just wait a patch" to "ehh actually I'll wait until next expansion" because of the need to audit my UI. I need to replace any addons that became deprecated, update my own scripts / weakauras, update settings for cooldown trackers, maybe find a new keybind because they added another rotational ability to my class, and so on. Layer this on top of all the class changes to be aware of and it's a daunting ask. I can't beg my friends to queue again when they need to do all this nonsense as well.
Sounds like a skill issue big dawg, took me 30 mins flat maybe to fix everything when I came back after 7+ years for shadowlands 😊
@@aceylaboy9773 I don't think you know what ''skill issue'' means my guy , no skill involved in downloading addons and editing a UI , it's just a pain in the ass that shouldn't exist in the first place.
@@badatdrawing5083 skill issue, i come back to WoW and am setup in 30 mins. Get friends, something. Irl skill issue or game skill issue.. 1 of the 2.
@ you could've taken the time to learn what skill issue means but instead you re-affirmed that you didn't understand what the OP was saying but also that you still don't know wtf a skill issue is. It's not about doing it fast , it's about doing it in the first place. But congratulation , you can download cheats in 30 mins , i'm sure someone will be proud of you for that !
@ you right it’s not about doin it fast.. I don’t do it fast, but it’s not like being moved to a different job.. yall can’t even setup ui and addons and expect to get brought to end game raid prolly and quit when yall don’t get invited 💀
The addon creep over the year is actually exhausting as a casual player lol. It's crazy that addons have both lowered the baseline skill and awareness of players, but is also incredibly mandatory in order to compete at slightly higher ratings.
You pretty much nailed it though, the game is very unwelcoming to new players especially in PVP where there is so much going on. Hopefully we see some changes, because I'd love to see more players. We need more baseline features so more people can actually learn what's actually going on and more people have a chance to participate without needing hours of prep just to get crushed in their 1st shuffle and get berated lol.
I never heard anyone talk about this, but i think its 1 of the core issues that could be improved to help the core of the issues improve (Buffs)
think a design overhaul in terms of cosmetics in the game (Animations, cooldowns, ects) Is whats actually needed. Buff's are kind of a symptom of an issue with Blizzard not making the base-line annimations for spells unique, flashy/larger/vibrant enough to be easily noticable WITHOUT a giant buff to signify it.
For instance, wings, you can barely see it while pvping. If it was larger, or the character transformed into the guardian of ancient kings instead, its OBVIOUS for a new player that they're bursting, you cant miss it.
But just some low-teir transparent holy wings cant be seen enough, there's a BILLION cooldowns that visually are barely noctiable or far less than they should be, like evasion/blur just being...going transparent. With totems, pets, ect flying around, its much harder to tell.
i really like your point about "mistakes being part of the game"
Addons have helped kill arena, game would be way better without addons, even interrupt bar should be removed, blizzard should just have better sound effects and players should have to listen for those and track the cooldowns in their heads. It was a skill back in the day to be able to mentally track cooldowns.
With all class in retail think just to much track all cool down so think some level tracking especially keep adding classes. But get what saying miss those days
PvP to me feels scripted. My addon tells me you blew a big CD, therefore I match it. Or if my addon tells me your healer blew a big CD, I know not to use mine, and the second the CD is over, I use mine. It doesn't feel natural to a players sense of awareness.
I completely agree with you. I find myself turning addons on and off all the time trying to balance between fun and my competitive nature.
They should just remove addons and improve the UI, everyone will lost stuff but it will be an even playing field
Addons should only be cosmetic. Anything else should be considered cheating and prohibited by Blizzard. They are too lazy to identify and fix their issues though.
I hope blizzard doesn’t listen to the brain dead “people” on their forums the millions of actual players do everything to avoid. These losers worship addons.
I like to pvp with almost a blank screen because it just looks cool that way, Sure i'm handicapping myself a lot but It loooooooooksssss soooo clean
THE MAJOR ISSUE is that the base ui is bugged doesn't track healer trinkets correctly, you can't track anything. The fact is OMNI CD should should be built into the base ui. The problem is the same problem that it has always been - Blizzard is clueless and not only do they not care they want the players to "fix" this stuff with addons.
Omnibar = Pavlovian Conditioning 😆 Thank for this video, honestly - I agree with 92% of what you are saying. I don't do addons therefore I also don't do Arena, Rated or Solo. I am not a "gifted" player - but I l Heart PvP, so I hang out in randoms without any addons. It is cool for me, but many people would like to grow out of randoms.
You are right, but realistically most people aren't playing at a high enough level for this to matter. It's tough to get a product on the roadmap that only affects the top x% of arena PVP players (small proportion of players overall), even though in the long run it might open up the competitive scene to more people (easier for shroud or somebody to hop on and start playing).
2100 is not casual. 1400 is casual. I get you see a lot of higher numbers than most but most players are not 2100 or higher. I have friends who dream of making it to 1800. You may as well have said let them eat cake. You elite players are out of touch with the average player and lack of average players is what is causing issues with the game.
At this point. I'd prefer Blizzard just rip the band aid off. Ban all addons, or only allow addons which read your own characters cooldowns. If people leave because they now suck without addons, fuck em.
DR should be in the UI togleable and default: ON. They should also be taught in the starting isle, VERY fundamental for both pve and pvp yet we cannot track it in the default UI after 21 years...
I have a different sight on it. Lets take bigdebuffs as an example : someone who played the game for many years can mention buffs like PS, PI or other stuffs immediately with the normal target or focus frame buffbar meanwhile a less experienced player doesnt have the same field of view and profits alot of addons like bigdebuffs. Blizzard just should start reworking the default UI for pvp and putting the features of the 4-5 most used addons in the default UI and for PvE its enough to stop designing boss abilites that require weakauras and an extern stream watching raidleader to solve the mechanics. Its not that addons or weakauras make the game more easy its just like blizzard designing boss mechanics that hard require weakauras to success.
Also: Boss difficulty design accounts for Addon use. If you're better at not standing in fire (because WA goat bleats when you do), Blizz has to come up with more complex mechanics to maintain practical difficulty (percentage of playerbase who manage to clear the content, probably). Now, add onto that, that we're playing a game that has been out for ages, has really wide skill distribution - you now have to introduce Mythic on top of Heroic. As a response, people develop smarter addons. Designers have to up the ante again. The cycle continues.
Another big problem about this is the frickin bloated and overwhelming UI even if its perfectly and cleanly set-up for a new player. They will be focusing on and trying to read every single icon popping up all over the screen instead of looking at the game. If the game gave good feedback to whats happening, people could much more easily learn to focus on posiitoning and awareness of what everyone is actually doing. (Basically looking at the characters and not icons...) Its so crazy to me that only after 2.4 cr you start to see people being aware of these things. Its like %90 of the players are looking at the icons and addons on their UI instead of the arena itself...
I definitely agree. For the longest time when i had first started playing wow I saw add-ons as kind of cheating. So i didn't download them for a long time. Now I only use cosmetic stuff like a bag add on, details and scrap to sell your junk. The amount of add ons for pvp has gotten so extreme, I still do ok and i don't use anything to track interrupts or cd's. Its really like that person your fighting isn't actually playing the way it was intended. Should just remove all add ons and Blizzard should do there job and make the UI better. They are so used to trying to make stupid stuff like Siren Isle what was even the point of that, I only went out there for one day because its not even neccessary.
As a long-time player, my usage of addons has been minimum at best: I used Recount and Gladius when I actually 'tried' in Arena, that's about it. I downloaded DBM when attempting some raids in the earlier expansions. I'm a mediocre player on a good day, nothing great, nothing absolutely horrible - I just want to get through the story/base expansion content . The addon requirements in modern retail puts you at such a massive disadvantage if you don't take the time to learn about them, configure them, and get used to them. Personally, it detracts from the game experience. I'm fine being a LFR guy/casual delver/battleground player, but for folks newer to the game or folks who really want to excel within a particular mode of the game, be prepared to do some homework regarding addons.
100% agree with you I wish blizzard will make changes on this part of the game, by implamenting part of some addons as you said like kick trackers, cds trackers etc.. and hopefully it will help new players to have an easier time starting wow
Those weakaura massive packages that flash every single cd should be removed. Tracking how often people are faking should also be prevented
yt algo push
All add-ons need to be disabled look at your screen you can't even see anything
imagine showing this to a brand new player , no way they ever buy the game after watching any high level gameplay
@@badatdrawing5083 no joke... such an ugly viewing experience lol.. imagine them hearing about how immersive this fantasy MMORPG WoW is, and then they see this garbage
You should see Cdew's screen...
1:59 ??? how about looking at the player model to see whats going on
Some of them are harder to see than others is the point he is making. Plus there are a lot to keep up with.
In PvP everyone should be even in regards to anything that helps with awareness, Blizz should put it into the game for everyone and no extra add-ons should be allowed in PvP
It's not profitable for Blizzard to remove addons coz:
1. They would lose a % of the player base.
2. They would have to hire people for improving and maintaining the default UI.
I suspect the amount of players that would opt into playing would outnumber those who'd quit. If you're very attached to your addons, chances are you're also attached to the game - unlikely to quit.
Blizzard will never remove addons and add them baseline. Creates a stupid amount of work for them that is currently being done for free by the community, on top of pleasing an extremely small percentage of players and making everyone else angry.
they sort of are already doing it, although slowly. Look at the new edit mode as an example, or new AH ui
@haypntik1862 reading comprehension is an important skill.
@@itstsmith what i mean is some work is being done to reduce the necessity of addons, i wouldnt be surprised after some time when a lot of improvements have already been made to the game, that they would pull the plug on addons.
@haypntik1862 It took them almost 20 years to add the ability to move UI elements beyond portraits, don't get your hopes up lol.
@ maybe you're right 😅
It's not just add-ons... I think Add-ons are a consequence of how the game has become honestly. There's too many things from your enemies that need to be tracked, there's too many things from your allies that you need to be aware of, and, there's too many things for you to do. The game has too much button bloating derived from everything you have and need to use to keep par with everything. It's too much, at least in my opinion. With that being said, of course I believe add-ons are also taking way too much from the game, and also it doesn't help that Blizzard looks like they're developing the game around what they know add-ons can do, to make it even more difficult, which is fundamentally wrong. It's all connected...
I was kind of against this stance in the past, with the reasoning of "other players can download addons too if they want", but after seeing in-house weak aura crafters in basically every top end pve guild, and now apparently also for pvp teams as well, its well past the point of ridiculous.
Blizzard should have been MUCH more proactive about incorporating the good/necessary addons or weakauras into the game, at least as options
You're also right about it being hard for returning players, Im not even remotely new to this game, and it was like walking into a brick wall after taking a few expansions off to play classic when I came back for TWW.
This is the kind of data that BOTS are using. They need to rip that data away from addons/players.
I'm all for removing every single addon except the arena frames one that shows people in CC's. But then, that could just be made by Blizzard and part of the base game anyway.
As a long time but terrible pvp’er I won’t make excuses that I’m bad because of addons but I do agree with everything said. We see it in pve, it’s a game of information and reactions. I see a pop up and I react to it. On top of all the reasons in the video, as a player it’s also just not fun spending every match just waiting for pop up alerts.
Add DR tracking to the in-game enemy frames, Interrupt bar, Big debuffs and details (maybe), that's all it needs, the game would be so much better.
game would be better if nobody can see DR, good players would be able to hit it right better than bad players
@@madebysimppe Yeah maybe, like the real old classic days, I'm open to the idea, I've no faith it'll happen tho
The barrier to entry for new players is buying the game + a sub fee, if you get past that then you gotta level a character which for a new player can take a while. Then you get to max level if you don't end up liking your class you will probably quit. Most Addons should be removed but they are more of the barrier to the endgame not necessarily to new players. If you wanna fix the new player experience you probably just need to remove leveling (in retail its pointless) or atleast start people at the current xpac so like start at 70, learn your abilities while going to 80.
Most addons are just compensating for Blizzard's poor UI. How do you expect players not to DR stun someone without an addon to track DR's? Are we supposed to count to 18 every time we see someone stunned? That isn't realistic. Are people supposed to fake cast forever because default UI doesn't show enemy kicks? Addons are a good thing until Blizzard build more into the default UI.
and THEN! You have Pikaboo not even tracking his own cooldowns.
#UltraChad
Yeah I've come back to wow every expansion since legion, but always end up quitting after I'm done levelling.. Once it sinks in that these fundamental flaws are still present.
It's not just that it's bad for the players but it's also bad for the viewers. If you don't play wow and you watch someone streaming pvp or pve, the screen is cluttered with way too much information that people just can't even contend with.
modern day addons are legit 50-70% of the way of using third party tools at this point.
Unfornately there are people like me who are disabled (in my case eye sickness) that need WA's, addons, sound. People that want to remove all addons, do not understand that some people also want to play the game but are disabled like me and need assistent from those addons. Obviously all those cheataddons lke the one in the current video should be out. Not that anyone care what I say here, but felt like sharing anyway.
I guess you didn’t understand his point he wants things to become more baseline visible and not need all the addons he isn’t saying that needs to be taken away but he wants these addons that tell you exactly what to do in every situation taken away
If you need addons to play, that’s on Blizzard. Accessibility is something the devs should sort, not a 3rd party.
The only way it would actually work, is to slow down the game + restrict some addons. The game is waay too fast and that is the reason we all installed addons. They just need to make it in-game feature for all the people to have it once they install the game, that's why I think skillcapped is on to something with their setup.
I love addons, but it's definitely gotten way out of control. I hope one expansion they just announce that combat addons will be severely limited, along with a bunch of built in features to allow us to still track rotational stuff.
I think it would be hated, but long-term it would be the correct move.
On live Cata I found a WA or addon that sounded an alarm and had a spell reflect icon pop up in the middle of the screen whenever any CC or big dmg spell was incoming and it was the day wow pvp died for myself.
The overall visual clarity of the game is atrocious too. So many pets and summons and gigantic particle effects. I could do without literally all of that and a lot of the games nonsense passives racking up tons of damage and healing
Can you talk about wintrading ?
And botting
I recently got back into wow with completionism as a primary goal. I used to be a fairly hardcore pvper between BC and Wrath (Duelist rank). I couldnt be *fucked* to get back into PvP with how it is. It looks so god damn unapproachable its insane. The addon bloat is hideous.
I remember grinding things like Battlemaster back in the say and loving the journey and man, its a shame I dont even want to touch pvp with how it is now.
Agreed. Just said so on Reddit when some big wig shared his UI package.
Yup, I remember when the top players where reluctant to use addons because they knew on lan they could not use addons
Instead of revamping it in whole they should make a PvP toggle and Pve Toggle. So you can just toggle between PvP addons and pve. Just like when you turn on war mode. As soon as you click warmode your PvP addons should activate
The only way I'm subbing again to play WoW is if Blizzard gets rid of addons, so stupid having to rely on 3rd party tools to do anything, all the game is already designed with DBM, Omni bars, Weak auras, etc... in mind.
How about improve the ui but disable all addons in competitive game modes
down
they have to make the game simpler. a lot of spell and dmg pruning. So much passive stuff that deals dmg. Also if someone pops dmg cds, just give them an big glow animation so you see it instantly. Remove dmg buff stacking, if you take sub rogue for example or ele shamans that have to press 5 globals for a setup. make it a simpler rock/paper/scissors thing.
@blizzard this input is the most valuable to improve pvp
Addons is one of the reasons we stopped playing. Another reason the que timer for solo shuffle. But the main reason is the constant buffs or nerfs to a class. Why play a class or spec that will get nerfed every two weeks? Yt wow content creators love it though. Best pvp class, best fun class, this class is op etc etc
You cannot get rid of addons, you will not understand anything if you didnt play this circus for the last 20 years.
Hey guys we have great patch for your. look at the awesome things that it brings,: here is a new mount, new transmog, and new currency, oh yeah and new zone, so that you we ignore rest of the 99% of the map. what about fixing the game so its enjoyable to play, how about making story memorable, how about remove the god damm addons, how about no woke dei feminen over the top shit? Blizz, nah we dont have time for that. Ok fine, cancels the sub. And they all lived happily ever after
Getting RID of addons doesn't help the vast majority of people and especially hurts returning and new players. Repeatedly you say that addons "get rid of the skill element of tracking.." z y x, in other words they increase the accessibility of the game. What Blizzard should do is improve the functionality of the base UI and limit computational/decision making functionalities afforded by addons, but going further and just forcing a standard UI would be atrocious. Blizzard have repeatedly demonstrated that their own ideas for what a good UI is, is totally orthoganol to what the majority of competitive players use anyway.
See. Class identification. Rogues have kick, that's why its called kick. Its not called wind sheer or rebuke because other classes got it later. You know to expect to be interrupted because they have a rogue on the team, not because everyone can interrupt spells. If you simplify the kit of each class to be unique... as in functionally different from every other class... then you can learn what each one does and not need to track it all. I don't pvp in anything other than casuals because that screen right there is eyecancer.
I do agree addons are a little out of control but are oddly still kind of fun.
The reason you can't see anything is because of how much clutter you have going on with your UI. The "skill of the game," as you put it, should *NEVER* involve having to fight your own UI...
Back in Legion, I was responsible for coordinating our raid's cc on Mythic Aggramar-- meaning: as a DK, I had to track our chaos novas, frost novas, Earthbind totems, etc-- So let's not pretend tracking raid cds ONLY started recently. Preparation is a skill that is key to WoW.
Couldnt agree more with everything you said in this video.
Blizz is happy that addons fix their game.
Each addon scales the players knowledge level and therefore power level. I used to think omnibar felt like cheating when it first came out, but this is different, this IS cheating.
They need to simultaneously simplify PVP while removing most weakauras or it has 0 chance of drawing new players, not to mention the subscription and overlap between pvp/pve. To be frank, PVP should just have it's own separate server and balancing.
The dream would be no sub, pvp server, separate balancing and gameplay from pvp, earnable transmogs of all types by marks of honor or currency, specific zone or dueling arena, rebuilt ranking system more like league/marvel rivals with rewards at each tier and end of season rewards. This way you can fully balance the PVP of arena/bgs without affecting PVE, you won't need talents that overlap with aoe/single target. You can tune down hp and damage to be completely different than PVE because you don't have to worry about raid/m+ mechanics. The player base just isn't large enough to draw any of this kind of attention from Blizz and that sucks :/
And what about ppl who play both pve and pvp? I get the rewards in PvE world too? And what about world pvp, sometimes its really fun if you met some angry guys who attack you and you can destroy them :)
They fixed gearing, spec balance is considerably much better than the older days... but what you are talknig about in this video is the most fundamental problem in wow gameplay that it seems so absurd to me that they havent really made any significant attempts at adding important information to the base UI and also bannnig addons...
Most of the things on screen? What are theY"
I agree with you man 100%
Yea they need to limit Addons and that will also help people who are struggling with frame rates and bloat on screen
Took me 3 months to be "comfortable" with those addons and I still 0% master it. I just understand how to use it..... (I play everyday)
I 100% prefer the time where you were able to see a kick by its animation/sound, or knowing a rogue has blind by its movements etc It was pure skill and knowledge :')
Right, or like my disc priest. I just knew PW: Shield gave Borrowed time (haste). I didn't need anything to tell me that or track a buff. But now they introduce gems that demand a 'if then' statement tracking. IF you successfully juke an interrupt, THEN you get a free window to do X. You MUST have something to track that or how tf would you know in a busy bg.
While this is interesting, WeakAuras and TellMeWhen are no more powerful today than they were back in MoP. I remember getting 2200 in the last season of MoP on my mage which I played terribly just by making a single tellmewhen icon that glowed like crazy as soon as I had my trinket's spell power proc, 2 FoF procs, and 5 icicles, so I could Alter Time, fire them off, and Alter Time again to one-shot anyone with unhealable burst (~300% of their full health bar in 4 seconds). I did no damage and just kited around and polied until the icon glowed, then exploded them with no setup.
This kind of addon technology isn't new. Why do you seem to imply it started in BFA or Shadowlands, when TellMeWhen and WeakAuras have been around and just as powerful since at least MoP, and possibly earlier?
That all being said, I think a far larger barrier of entry is reaching max level, gearing up, and learning how to maximize the insane number of passives that are in the game now. Back in MoP and earlier, there were far fewer passive effects to consider, even if there were the same number of abilities, or even more in same cases.
The "gearing up" aspect is huge. I hadn't played in BFA or Shadowlands, so I was missing a lot of the new information about arena gear. The ability to turn PvP gear into items with set bonuses and still have the arena item level is something I only figured out after like 6 weeks of playing at max level this expansion. I only understood how to apply an embellishment to an item several weeks after that! The Siren Isle ring says nothing on it about being reduced in PvP so I had to know to avoid using it in arena by getting information from outside the game. You can get gem sockets on your gear by spending an ungodly amount of honor and gold. Everyone seems to have all these weird gear hacks and it's not obvious how to apply them. I only learned about many of them by looking up players on drustvar and seeing these seemingly impossible effects. I even asked several players in-game how to get them and nobody could tell me. Why isn't gearing just straight-forward?
For how long have pvpers been begging blizzard to wake up for pvp. Way to long,, just leave it.
“You’re a casual 2.1k players” , shooting strays for no reason 😂
I mean 30-40 spells per spec is also a bit of a barrier to entry
Why should you be able track the enemies abilities with a widget on your screen? In any other game that would be an absurd concept to even suggest.
If you want to talk about abilities being visually and auditorily easier to track when they've been used, that's a different subject matter.
Add-ons just clutter the whole screen and doesn't allow you to enjoy anything but bunch of little icons and numbers
how do you call a software that tells you what is your opponent doing while you cant see it yourself? Which resource he have avaliable, predict his actions... - Other games "hack-cheat", - Wow "an addon". Skill cap? Id say skill issue
Are you good at PvP, or managing a dozen addons? A zero addon server would be amazing. Blizz does need to fix the basic interface as well.
It’s more then just add ons at this point way back I saw many videos of scripts in game macros to set conditions so you can never be juked for interupts or stun stuns so no overlaps and u can just spam press they key while mashing away at a rotation. Combine that with these add ons that tell you everything it’s insane.
I only use BigDebuffs and Omnibar for interrupts. Otherwise I use the blizzard ui.:D
Remove addons, but still uses them. Cool take. Thanks for the video btw Venruki!
I love PVP and I love to play the game. But I stopped PVP'ing solely because I don't want to maintain 2 UI's. It's fun once it's all set up, but without it even as a veteran player it's just not fun. Like everyone plays perfect, and it makes it not fun. And even minor mistakes are now penalized heavily and better yet some hardcapped 1700 player going all volatile because you make a minor mistake. Whole other issue, but certainly this feeds in to that. That guy would never recognize the overarching macro match against the constant micro decisions without external tools
anyone who has played this game over 10 yrs doesnt need addons to play. we didnt have them bck then so we learned to play without them. i agree get rid of the addons only thing i need is wows raid frames thats it
Imagine if blizzard did anything.
Don't tell the wow forums this. So true man.
Blizzard is just lazy they don't want to fix their shitty UI so they just leave for the community to create addons, every other game you can play without having to do all that extra configuration
So here is my issue with it. Sure, addons. But they're not solely responsible. The fact that gladiators, like Pika, Ven, you, Ziqo and Supa, thinks that 2100 is casual is the problem. Like.. I reached 2k when I tried my best and I know there are millions below me in rating. Like, I am usually 1800 or there about. 2100 for me is like living in wow. I have to try really hard to reach that.
I feel that highrated players are super disconnected with the difficulty of wow pvp. And worst is. You get mocked at my rating.
But it's like you think 2100 is the lowest rating there is.
Strongly agree, addon stuff went too far
thank god theres people smarter and kinder than I that share their addon profiles XD