Xaryu Reacts to "Why Addons Shouldn't Be in Competitive WoW"
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- Опубликовано: 4 фев 2025
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I watch Reckful 3 to remind myself what players should strive to be in PVP. That is the pinnacle of a top tier pvper. A legend of his time and a True OG pvper.
Reckful and Talbadar.. the best priest/rogue combo ever (although hydra/kalimist was sick back in the day)
@@randybobandysc2711 Different specs tho. Hydra played disc.
pretty sure I remember reckful counting out DRs and kicks for his team back in the day. on most teams that was the healer's job. man is forever a legend.
100% agree. I play without a lot of addons purely because I want to emulate that experience - if it means I don’t gain X rating I literally don’t care. I wouldn’t be satiated getting X rating using a massive array of addons.
Reckful literally having the stopwatch live to track kidney DR etx. Unreal.
@@_TG I came back to the game 2021 didn’t do no addons … felt like my first go round playing wow in 2008. Meaning it was amazing.
I feel like learning about Addons is also another hurdle for new players, and with the amount of things needed to learn about retail it can get even more overwhelming. As well as new players with no addons have clear disadvantage to players with them.
And you are right. A good amount of wow players wouldn't be as good as they are without addons...
Yeah, I remember trying to get a friend into pvp with me. And I could hear his excitment get deflated when he started realizing how many add ons he needed. Its bad game design if a game needs add ons for it to be competative and fair.
@@MIngalls I agree more or less, years ago when I was younger and with less depression (WoLK), I didn't like to use addons, because I just wanted to turn on the game and play the damn game, I stared to play pvp duels, BG and arenas, and with the past of time you start to recognize by eye the skills and cd of other classes, specially the defensives and burst, but how did you achieve that? dueling with people in 1v1, you can recognize much better what people is doing and how the skills look and affects you in combat and leveling up alter characters, specially from classes that are hard to deal by your main, so you can understand in which moments they are vulnerable to be killed or weakened and so on, I recognize that the pvp is much more frenetic nowadays, many classes have stronger bursts and defensives tha ever but once they are in cd are too vulnerable, that makes games much more fast passed and flashy, but addons give you so much information that makes everything substantially easier, well obviously not amount of addons will give you the edge to compete in top pvp where you have barely time to think or react, but addons makes it easier non the less.
It is. BUT, it's MUCH easier to learn the addons than learn to play without addons for new players. Therefore, I think addons make the game more accessible for new/noob players.
I don't know.. Just got into PvP a couple of months ago. Took me like 2 hours max to setup my frames, install addons and install (and even write a small one myself) WA's. Though I must admit that I've been playing WoW for longer than that and I have already been familiar with addons beforehand
@@PpJjStock I disagree, wow is actually the only game that comes to mind that needs 3rd party installs. It's super overwhelming to even know where to begin. You have to research them, download them, see if you like them, config them (this part can be a pain in the ass if you have no idea what your doing)...its ridiculous. I was super overwhelmed back when I first got into addons. I practically wasted more time worrying about addons than actually playing the game. The base game just needs to be better, not that addons need to exist.
I heavily believe a UI in todays current MMO should be sufficient. I agree with him, that ADDONS at a point become less about aesthetic and more a crutch.
Nah, even just the default UI is complete dogshit.
what does this comment even mean
The issue with this in PVE is, People claim this, yet even with addons, cannot play at the skill level of world first players.
Lazy af Learn play without and it will feel different
I would love to see a "No addon" challenge. Just like the Zero to hero challenge
They would need to improve the UI quite a bit though, more than just add Move Anything to it. The main problem is for so long Blizzard has neglected the UI because they knew Add-on devs would take care of that for them, so they'd need to catchup for sure. They'd also need to really cut down the API to limit what is available.
I am 100% carried by my interface in WoW. It always amazed me how the top level players kept track of everything.
Its all muscle memory. Once you q 100 arenas one way you remember it all, imagine qing 10k arenas. It all becomes inate, thats how the human body works.
Started playing feral because of you in cata. Hope you're doing well
I would love WoW wthout addons, but for that to happen blizzard needs to give us a better and way more flexible UI and considering they are failures that will never happen. Regardless, it would dramatically increase the skill cap especially for top tier competitiors
I totally agree. The reason why Lost Ark got a surreal mmo pull from players all over the world was due to the fact that it was very challenging given that there were no addons that would tell you to dodge stuff. If WoW allows for more organic reaction and learning that would be incredible.
Im up for It tbh, make the pve easier, remove dbm like addons
@Calvin Hobbes you’re mistaken. Wait until people get bored of elden ring
Always thought addons revealed too much of your opponents next move so to speak. Back in vanilla wow you could juke interrupts by using hearthstone since it had the same casting animation as healing cast for shaman and druids :P
Ohhh shit I forgot about that lolololol
and the furbolg costume looking like someone casting a holy light :D
Holy fuck thats so funny and genius
this is the type of big brain plays tho that make fights exciting. imagine seeing someone do that at blizzcon! thatd be insane! now its like watching two teams of TAS players
Imagine dodging a boss ability because you know the fight or because of a feeling / play that you make.. Instead of reacting to a robot telling you to move in 5 seconds
Im all for this, however people who doesnt raid mythic progression, also need to understand how complex these fights have become, and that they would be literally impossible without addons. But yes Id rather have them without addons and with less boss ability clutter.
@@Ziseth The reason fights are so complex is because of addons. Because of addons telling you everything Blizzard who seem to want difficult content in the game need to make things harder and harder every raid. Without addons mechanics would not be as complex.
Pika Even being a rogue through the internet by sneaking up and jump scaring Xaryu, that was gold.
I personally have a lot of experience playing pve and pvp with 0 add ons and IMO it’s such a better game. Of course add ons help with many many things, you can 100% still track and notice things like kicks and DRs with animations, sounds and CD timers. The game feels more skill based
Cd timers? Thats an addon feature isn't it?
No it’s part of blizzard ui
The fundamental issue here is that WoW has terrible information design. You are not given the information you need to know about your enemy, so addons are essential. The way that the game is designed you NEED to know how many bolts the Demo Warlock has got left in the tank. You NEED to be able to track various cooldowns and procs. The balance of the game gets flipped upside down, and all of a sudden having a "hidden" ability (e.g. a proc) can make a class overpowered. Besides, what's interesting about WoW isn't the ability to identify that this tiny obscure icon among a dozen others means that you're about to get one-shot. That sounds awful, why would that be a skill that's interesting? What's interesting is the decision-making process, and making good decisions means that you need to have access to information. It is a fair point, however, that everyone needs to be on a level playing field, which is generally not the case for newbies (not only do they not know what things mean, they won't even have their UI configured to even see things like Deci Bolt stacks).
That being said, there are aspects of WoW gameplay that could be interesting, so things like tracking cooldowns (for example an Assassination Rogue's Kidney Shot). I think I recall Whaazz using a stop watch to do that stuff back in the day (when addons were not allowed in tournaments), which is fairly interesting.
I don't really think getting rid of addons makes the game more interesting. It's decision-making that's interesting about WoW (and generally any game), and as a player, you try to replicate the decision-making process of other, better players. If we can make the game less addon-heavy due to better information design from the developers, then I am absolutely all for that. But this is a change that has to come with better design.
This really made me realize why I fell out of the wow pvp I used to be huge constantly watching it and tournaments etc but I stopped and now I know why
I like the ability to move frames, make certain buttons bigger etc. anything that gives the player information that they otherwise wouldn't have is too much in my opinion.
Nice topic Xaryu! Addons is the main reason why wow classic didn't make a connection to the players. Remember when you started lvling and the first thing you did is download that questie addon. that's when you started fall back from the game wich should be the community and not programs making the game easier for you.
You can still track DRs to a second with the ingame timer. Obviously only for one person, but that's the main thing.
I completely agree with pikaboo. Add-ons have no place in a competitive setting. These are the 'top' players in the world and they rely on add-ons to tell them all the information they need. Hell in the race to world first DMB literally screams at you when to move and when to get away from people. Having Dr trackers in a competitive arena makes it a lot easier to know when you are going to set up another try at a kill.
but now you can't deney that boss fights are made WITH ADD ONS IN MIND, some are so tricky and precise you just cannot deal with them without add on, there is just too much shit going on at the same time! If you remove add ons on PVE the boss fights will certainly loose in flavour, and it is bad i think because yeah, back in the days of vanilla, BC, and other early years of wow, add ons were just to make your life easier, the mecanics were basic as fuck and there were not a lot going on at the same time. But now, they ARE mandatory, especially at high level. You cannot humanly track everything going on everywhere on everybody at the same time, it is just impossible! And even some "simple" mechanics needs them, like the soccer on i don't remember the boss' name in the last raid of BFA, have you done it? and tried it without the arrow weak aura showing you the direction the ball will take? It would have been WAY WAY too much hard to deal with... and i don't even talk about Azshara xD
But, with that said, i kanda agree that in high end PVP competition, add ons can be desactivated if you want to put up a show. OR, create 2 différents categories, one with add ons and near perfect gameplay in that regard, and one without add ons with juste experience and the feeling. Exactly like non tool assisted speed runs and tool assisted speedruns, both are entertainning and have pros and cons, but they obviously can't be in the same category.
Not just on tournaments, they should remove every combat related addon from the game entirely and just built a ingame dmg meter.
@@rosemccartney1538 you need to understand that if you remove every mannagement add ons, the fights will be blanks. Do you want to have boss fights from vanilla or BC? Outside of nostalgia, it was juste ridiculously empty. The boss spammed a curse! chain dispells... Oh! there is ONE aoe, juste move! and not a lot more outside of nearly no brain healing and damage output... but have you done or seen any wow fights since warlord? and arguably MOP? fights without timmers and relating info about what is going on are just not an option anymore... you juste cannot deal with some fights without it. Or, alone, maybe. But not on the scale of a raid. What would be the point of paying every months to play a game that only a handfull of persons can have the hope to finish, and you would probably never be able to go after 2 raid bosses?
Like just for fun, search in WOD the fights from i don't remember the name of the boss, the big golem on the right, or gorefiend, or Archimonde in mythic... and now, imagine dealing with those mechanics WITHOUT ANY ADD ONS! it would be a fucking nonsense! And add to the pot some passive enrage mechanics or timmers that does not allow you to loose time, and that's it you made impossible content!
@@seijurohikko6382 Yeah makes it a challenge, which is better. Blizzard probably shouldnt make these fights THAT complex anymore then, just a bit less. I never used any addons beside dmg meters and raided up to heroic multiple tiers. And i’m not close to a mythic raider, so if i can do heroic without addons. The people actually good at the game probably can do mythic without it, or maybe blizz should just tone bosses down in the future.
@@rosemccartney1538 if you simplify reduce mechanics, now bosses will just be burnt down without even trying to do what you were intended to do, most of the time... the reality is wow is an old game, there are still noobs but most average players are WAY more skilled now than even some of the best players back in the old days, so the game cannot be the same anymore. Just as an exemple, nearly no one thought about DPS rotation, real optimisation, did math as "advanced" as now etc... the proof of that is the average time of a boss on vanilla and BC servers, back in the days if you told a BWL boss would be oblitareted in less than a minute, you would just have been taken as a cheater, but if you basically just apply to the game the theorycraft we do now, it was just a joke. Like who the fuck would have thought that the best TANK, was fury warriors? No one, but it is the case on vanilla, because they hit like trucks, generate aggro above the roof, and with the modern TC applied to other classes you do not need a heavy tank to Thanos snap bosses. It is so true that blizz that said the serv config was intended to be the same as vanilla were modified to nerf the crap out of a lot of things the player could do, and buff the living shit out of the bosses... Thing you cannot do now on retail for the most part.
Maybe a balance can be found, but i think if you reduce the impact of mechanics, bosses will just be melted on place, and if they are still that complicated the fights will either be impossible, or be 30+ minutes fights... wich either way, isn't good. Because yeah a patchwerk fight is fun once in a while, but if every boss turns out to be a nearly empty or not impactfull bag of HP... there will be no fun or at least way less!
This conversation is how I've been feeling about raiding
Imagine the auction house without TSM. People might be able to afford legendaries
no. people would just list it based off some other existing value. like the 25-50k gold i listed my progenitor essences for. most the market settles around what they can get away with. so i fully expected legos to be around the 120k mark.
its a bit crazy they went up for 200-500k but its not un expected. in order to determine the market value, you got to start high and work your way down till it sells
if you start low, you saturate your market and condition them into thinking they can just wait for the lower price to come back up.
and with the wow token, people will prob just decide it should cost around that much since they know players can obtain that much gold in a few hours with a swipe and list.
Are we just NOW having this discussion yesh.
There is a simple enough fix. Have “Pro” servers available for players to choose. with a full traditional world pvp setting, no addons, and no easy mode.
Nah, no thanks been having addons for the past 18 years now and it's still one of the things that makes wow unique
Yo man. Would love more reaction videos, especially the popular blizzcon or tourny ones.
Always wished to see you play on the big stage but this content seems entertaining as well!
For DRs you can imagine creating an external program that detects when you press your CC button and start a timer. It would be less OP but still.
That what I was gonna say, like creating an in game macro to start and stop the ingame timer and track it via that.
Or you just know that with drs you can use the spell 3 times in a row before they are immune each different type of cc and then you know that the dr last for 15 seconds I got 2.1 without any dr trackers just use your brain
@@apostle4122 players have been doing that forever lol i still have my old macros for it. It sets the in game timer to tick down how ever many seconds you choose
itd have to be an internal macro tho? these are mostly lan servers if it was a 3rd party program youd probs be DQd real quick
@@poovle6924 it is internal /script Stopwatch_Play()
/sw :24
/p CS USED
I don't think addons should be allowed in competitive play.
Imagine playing CS:GO if you would allow a addon that changes player models into a sharp red color for visibility
It would be called cheating.
And they allow things like Weakauras in wow.
it would only affect to comps with spamable cc ( such as RMP ) . specially RMP because their win condition , beside having cross cc and burst , is their go per minute ( new fun term ) . If an RMP does 2 goes per min instead of 3 because they cant track their drs they change to god tier to below average .
would be a perfect change
Then braindead no cordonation required comps should be nerfed in dmg and sustain.
I met a kid today in my class that looks and sounds exactly like pikaboo to the point I had to ask him if he was pikaboo... I then had to explain that pikaboo was a guy who made wow videos and I don’t think we’re gonna be friends now
This addon discussion simplified is about what type of chess should we be playing…one where it is obvious what an opponent is doing by a screen popup, thus our response is dictated by what they did this speed and precision as well as not overlapping and clean play creates a hyperoptimized version of play (think about how chess bots play better than any human can now) or one which incorporates far more game based memorization…memorizing what abilities look like, what buffs and debuffs look like on characters and timing of abilities (know if the kick CD is back off pure memorization) so it moves the game a bit away from optimized chess to a looser form of chess
Personally I think certain addons should be base in the UI like SArena or big debuffs as they improve the feel of the game without being a large impact (ignoring the dr tracker and trinket cd those are huge) but other addons such as omnibar and particularly weakauras approach the point of as you said “having the game get played for you”
so yea like that chatter said 1.5 or 1.25 where the goal is that the addons are not giving you information you could never access without downloading them, but instead ease or modify bad or weird UI design (such as bleeds being over the nameplate instead of only in the target debuff frame or character nameplates being so so small by default)
First time I comment on a video. But this is a huge thing! This can make wow great again for real, like you saying it will make the game more dynamic and as Pika says, the genius player will really shine. Please can we make a move to make this a reality?! You as a big streamer with a huge platform should make a push for it! 🙏🏻❤️
I remember Soda making a macro for DR, using the stopwatch. I find that pretty awesome
Had to come over to other guy's channel. Xaryu is inspirational.
Yes, use your brain and play the game.
It would change in a major way. It DOES correlate directly. Just attempt to have people try to play without them and watch them cry before even hearing it out or entertaining the idea.
(Bruh you explained how I played in Cataclysm to the letter. I had to overshoot the 18s mark by 3s or so, or I just overloaded it and reset asap sometimes. Missing the Combat Rogues 9.4 second stun Kidney Shot. Bruh did a very good explaining)
Nobody can, count CDs in their head like the old days, doubt the PvE gameplay would be as crisp as it is now, etc.
Worst addon (and coolest) I have ever seen was the ability to track other players CDs, like really, that is bullshit. You are suppose to have an idea of where my CDs are. Not KNOW EXACTLY what my CDs are.
(Yes I used it and it was pretty eye-opening and fun, I will admit)
That outro music. I gotta get me one. Yeah you did, you made your point early on, thanks for staying so long. I cannot catch you on Twitch.
I think the prevalence of addons has grown in pvp as a result of the pace of the game. Like it's much much easier to play classic TBC arena without addons than it is retail because there is significantly less outcome impacting abilities to track.
The game has evolved into a CD trading meta to the point where if you didn't have a reliable way to track the CDs you would just die... and the rebuttal people might bring up is Sterge's "prediction" on Whazz's CDs in that series (later in the video) but all that really happened was him lining up his CDs with Whaz's to know when it was coming... not saying it wasn't a good play thats what saved them for sure; but it's essentially the same thing to look at the defensive with the same CD and look at a WA of that CD and just seeing when its coming off CD nobody is galaxy brain counting the seconds its been since each major CD of every enemy in the match has been used and tracking it in their head.
I'm not a multi R1 Blizzcon contender, I'm just a 2500 andy so I might be wrong... but this feels like a rose tinted glasses take... I dont think the majority of the playerbase would benefit from that sort of change... but maybe it gives those are the very top too much of an edge to have addons, don't know - haven't been there.
tbh I think in pvp it would benefit lower skilled players. Good players track cooldowns with addons and remove room for mistakes. Lower skilled players arent going to bother with that, so the difference in impact between high to low skill becomes larger. PvE is a different story though, if low skill players dont have stuff like DBM and weakauras them im pretty sure modern day raiding would grind to a halt lol.
i think it would. For years, pvp has only gotten harder and the barrier of entry has gotten significantly higher that there are very few new players that get into pvp. Any new players wouldnt want to try out pvp if they had to learn the game, farm their gear or borrow power, and then having to go to a third party website to download what is basically essential to be even on the same playing field, addons. For the longest time I have been a purist when it comes to addons, but the game has become unplayable without them because there are too many things too track now and not having addons is like playing handicap.
No one is actively counting in their head but old school wow players had a really good feeling for when things were about to happen.
It just isn’t impressive to keep track of shit that’s glowing numbers and colours in your face.
I think it hurts "lower skilled" or newer players more, I think it's much easier to tell someone about omnibar; than it is to say: "okay play against people with 15+ years experience while learning how long CDs are for every major ability in the game offensive and defensive." and that doesn't even bring DR tracking into the picture, learn all the different CCs and their categories for DR and make sure if your teammate or you overlap that you recalculate the duration in your head and adjust... I think it helps everyone across the board to have more information available.
The game is way different at higher levels of play. Those players are looking for numerical advantages. As in how many cooldowns can a comp break before getting a kill, how many rotations necessary, how much dampening. They know to an extent how much of rock, paper, scissors factos in a win. If anything addons create way more of a nausiating experience for casual players. There is nothing fun about getting perfectly cc chained over and over again at 1800 rated, like im playing some of the most sweaty games because people are actually playing the game beyond reasonable human capabilities. Hell, I remember watching cdew years back play without addons to practice for a tourny just taking loss after loss after loss to people reacting perfectly to cd's. The man was hardstuck like 2300 rated without addons XD
I hate having to use addons. I quit wow and one of the biggest reasons I'll never come back is because I just don't want to have to re-download and set up all the addons that are expected of you to have or you feel that are needed to play optimally.
There were a variety of pvp macros that did what Gladius does now, such as arena frames, tracking enemy cds. Players would just resort to that honestly.
But isnt it about using no addons at all? so arena frames etc. would be not allowed also
@@h.g.buddne4179 not sure, I just remember back when arena junkies was around that was an option for people who didn't have great computers.
All they have to do is disable the combat API. You'll still get parsers etc possibly, but real time feedback would be almost impossible without access to the combat API. That would also preserve the ability for things like ElvUI, Shadowed Unit Frames etc to customize UI, but you couldn't "code new UI" into the game. Or at least, not very easily. I would like to see something like that.
if Addons arent gonna be in WoW, blizz needs to make imporvements to the base UI.
There are limits, of course (no cd/dr tracking, no W/A stuff) but things like ELVui. moveanything, etc. show just how many small changes can be added that would vastly improve the game.
Atleast let us move action bars, cast-bars, party/raid frames.
you can move your raid profiles btw...
i think for rogue/mage and dr trackers. if you never had the trackers or had to deal with out them for long enough, the best mages and rogues would end up getting a feel for accurate timers
Yup and that's how it should be. Raw skill
They couldn't do it without severely nerfing all PVE content. Even the absolute best in the world would never clear Mythic raids
Def not, I avg a 90 Parse with 0 addons.
@@Ugoofy1 Who counts non-prog parses? I mean if you don't want to believe me that's fine, I have 99 parses too but that's not my avg. You don't need any of that shit to play, I prefer not to play with any of it, just gotta pay attention, the tells in WoW are way easier than other games. But yea not top 100, top 500, still mythic clears, I don't play WoW full time so I guarantee you professionals could do it. Plus it makes it more exciting and I would have even higher parses so I'm 100% down with no addons.
@@Ugoofy1 rofl okay, sorry you're mad cause bad.
Exactly why we need to ban add-ons so scrubs like you won't even blue parse.
@@BeingBrian "I avg a 90 Parse with 0 addons." What's your ingame name and guild name? Link your WoWlogs
Mez was taking about that even without addons, pro players were using very in-depth macro packages at lans that were doing a lot of what addons were doing before addons became so rampant. It wasn’t exactly the same but there was still a real advantage being gained.
I don't PVP at a high level so I can't speak for it, but I do PVE at the very highest level (particularly in M+), and can say with confidence literally everyone at the top is using pretty much the same addons. So it's basically a level playing field already.
Raiding encounters are made with dmb and weakauras in mind already, it would be insane to do race to world first without addons people would have timer software and excell spreadsheets on a 2nd screen wich would turn out to be the same.
Nah remove addons in competitive settings, maybe from an arena pov blizzard could add something to track your trinket and big debuffs be base in game but that's it
The game you are looking for is SWTOR it’s UI is completely customizable in terms of moving it around.
I recently started playing and the people I am playing with wouldn't play with me until I downloaded add ons. I was keeping track of everything in my head, got to 2k doing that too
For research purposes what are these add-ons that should be illegal? I want to get them.
This speaks to me, i occassionally dabble in pvp and when i wanted to get better, oh my god, the time i had to invest in setting up eeeverything, it was just demoralizing since you also have to understand the add on as well…
I miss old school arenas without addons, I personally took pride in keeping track of everything manually. Addons def made things too easy
They develop the boss encounters with add ons in mind.
They have to otherwise addons would carry every fight more than they currently do
The DR trackers, auto kickers, CD trackers, etc take away A LOT of higher tier play, especially when you're in a 2s comp and know exactly when the right time is to blow all your cds knowing the enemy has no defensives left. Most players will make every excuse in the book to say an addon they are relying on isn't some form of crutch or cheating (Spy in classic).
I don't even like things for raiding like decursive for healers because it puts the window up on your screen and you just use healbot to single click/mouse button over it reflexively without having to look for the players (even though DBM names the players for you on the screen in addition to your raid frames).
The excessive use of addons is just confusing to newer players or anyone unfamiliar whos trying to watch an arena tournament. There's already way to much going on for a non experienced player to follow but add in all the tracks and focus target systems and it becomes on big confusing clusterf%$^.
It's very interesting to hear people complain about addons, but I never hear anyone complain about certain types of macros. You know what's much more OP than any addon? Something like arena, 1, 2, 3. Being able to just instantly cast an ability at a target without ever actually targeting them completely covers for so many potential mistakes/mistimings, etc.
yah I guess the non target casts do break the game a little. I see what your saying, but addons break the limits a little more than the macro targeting.
My biggest reason for not playing Wow honestly is the addons. Played on and off quite a bit, but add ons felt like such a chore and wow base UI is just crap.
At one point in vanilla WoW blizzard banned add-ons and 70% of guilds couldn't do end game raids anymore and stop just doing them.
Then someone makes new ones then raiding began again till blizzard bans them then no more raiding again. Went on for awhile till blizzard gave in and them use them.
you can use the stopwatch feature to track DRs, its definitely harder but if you have it running, you can see whatever time the stopwatch is at when u do your last cheap or poly on the target is and add 18 seconds
There are a lot of fps games where they are doing this, eg. Quake, tracking power ups, etc. Its almost basic for many fps games
I remember seeing Channimal using the wow timer lol
Addons are like playing chess with a real person while you are using using a computer that tells you how to move. If they aren't using the same computer to advise them, they have little chance.
I've been saying this for year's, good to hear you guys calling out add-ons.
on the standart UI when you click on the time, theres a stopwatch function. you can just take the stopwatch move it to, where you can see it realy good and track your own DR's than you can comunicate over voice wiith your teammates.
Pika’s 100% right. Aesthetic addons are completely fine, but from a competitive level of DR Tracking, Ability Tracking, Weak Aura’s to signal for every ability takes away the critical thinking from a skillset.
I remember when players would use stop watches or trade CD’s to track enemy CD’s and when they’d be up. Let the players who are at the top of competitive play, show their skillset holistically as opposed to the reliance on addons.
Add-ons are only necessary because the game was designed around them in part. If they wanted they could have flashy, obvious animations for each ability so it would be more obvious when a warrior uses pummel for example- instead of needing omnibar or something. In league, you don't have the enemy cooldowns but you can tell which ability they're using most every time and can keep track of it that way.
I wish standalone wow was more playable without the suite of add-ons you need for QOL improvements
I’d be 100% for removing addons if blizzard allowed the entire UI to be customized. They’ve already fixed the party/raid frames and added clique, they should just take the dive and fully implement elvui functionality to the default ui.
Another addon that blizzard should look to implement into the default UI is opie. It reduces the amount of action bar slots that get wasted on utility abilities (mounts, target and world markers, health/mana pots etc.)
Essentially all of the RP community in WoW relies on addons to function. Idc so much about addons for gameplay stuff, but the idea of having no other option but to go with the base RP experience without addons (which is no support or options at all) is a scary thought.
Been palyn since vanilla. Pika and you are on the right path with add-ons!!! All tourneys have been absolutely scripted and you see when a team makes a mistake. Taking away addons will take the game back to a cerebral in that nano second choice instead of being told what to do. BOTH PREACH!!!
I respect this man. I practice pvp every single day since vanilla launch and I have never used mods. Never went for rating but practice every day. If they added this mode I will finally go for it.
Why wouldnt you play for some rating wtf
So what you're saying is you're a trashcan player in random bgs and arenas but you think you're good because you've never used an addon.
@@Ghost1170 I get to 2k usually i just don't try hard, dont like the meta at high ratings. I like using trash specs and classes weird legos etc
@@cryogenical_ I said I practice daily not that im good. But i beat glads consistently so not useless. Curious how well many of them would do with default UI
@@moderngoblin you just said you dont tho you potato lol.
Whats your toons name if ya dont mind? Do you use a dk? Theyre pretty poopy atm/kinda out of meta with thug cleave being op atm, but they still their counter.
Swtor does an excellent job of the UI customisation
I think in a nutshell what pika is saying is that add ons lower the skill cap of the game. People need to use their brain more, gaming awareness is part of the skill and it shouldn’t be heavily aided with add ons which reduce the need to process information yourself
Addons let WoW developers know what to put in the game natively. They help improve the game.
One problem with removing addons is that certain spells are hard to see without them, especially some interrupts. Blizz would need to address that first. I do agree with Pika it would make for more exciting tourneys though.
because the game was designed with addons involved
Not just the competitive aspect in AWC/MDI/world first games. But it would make the entry barrier lower.
To be decent at PvP you need to track 20 different cooldowns that the enemy have, all their team's DRs, and your own DRs to enemy CC. Plus much more. I'd love for them to just ban all addons that show more information than the default UI, and bake in Trinket and enemy DR trackers into the default arena frame UI.
Simple enemy DR trackers are too important, just for like basic readability. Otherwise it would lead into too many moments where you blow a 1min stun CD into an immune DR that your friend caused with some passive proc stuff. But you should not be able to see and track enemy defensive and burst CDs, and all of their CC abilities too. That should come from muscle memory and intuition, instead of a 20 row bar of CD trackers.
In PvE this also happens, where fights are so complex because they are designed to be challenging when using the top notch weak auras to unravel the knots of mechanics tied by the devs. Going in without the addons makes the fights nearly impossible. They need to ban these addons and make the game itself more readable. Make the ques for mechanics more understandable and readable in the game, without an addon that shows who is too close to who and when the boss will do this and that.
No plzzz. This would be soo boring and you can go play any other mmo if you don't like addons. Addons is what makes wow good
Addons take the "P" out of PvP and PvE. Players with talent do not get to shine when there are so many addons affecting the game. Why is the Race to World First and mythic raiding so complicated? Addons, plain and simple.
You can’t get rid of addons without blizzard completely re-hauling their ui.
I love how you made the connection to SWTOR in terms of “move everything”
But you cannot make debuffs or buffs more viewable , there are no audible queues , there is no obvious sights that can register . . . Star Wars doesn’t allow addons
And it’s impossible to really take PvP serious when the game prevents you from playing it . Without comms in SWTOR you cannot even tell what the heck is happening in a 4v4 arena match .
It was horrendous
the UI addons that let you have your buttons and stuff where you want them should be in any mmo imo.
Damage meters and such should be built into the game simply because players like to see numbers and without it the game slowly fades into obscurity.
CD trackers, that depends on what you want the game to center around. if you want high precision and perfectly timed combos to be the norm at a competitive level or if you want wild west. you never know what tick they have up their sleeve. or... dying to a random rng attack. wont say which. just know bliz will nerf it ;D
some weak auras should be built into the game imo and others grant a level of advantage simply by knowing everything the game is willing to tell you.
the way Bliz designs the game. its basically mission impossible what they expect players to do with coordination in certain Mythic Raid encounters.
in pvp. there are fewer requirements. the in game sounds effects can tip you off when certain dangers are around. addons telling you every single ability is prob going too far if we were to be looking to pick and choose what stays and what goes into any mmo in general.
achievement trackers. rare loot table trackers. yearly event quest markers. all of that is good imo as it makes the game more accessible.
if the game instead wanted to be a real hard grind, then maybe it gets taken out as well but that wont stop players from looking it all up on the internet. we have wowhead etc.
but if it becomes too hard or time consuming to do anything, then people quit and a mmo requires many players active in the game to survive. if the numbers go too low. 2 hour ques for matches could become a thing. and for an RBG it can take over an hour to get enough people on for a group, never mind the wait in que going any where from instant to 20+ mins, only to be matched 100-200 rating difference. someone draws the short straw half the time vs an even match.
while I see the point people who don't like addons make, if wow removed addons the game would die, it's the main reason why it's so popular, you can make your own game out of it
No addons for wow PVE would actually be so dope
I would love this, I'm in 100% complete favor of no more addons in the game period; I don't think it's too far gone! Maybe allow some minimal UI cosmetic changing addons, but nothing else, people will just have to get over it because the game will be VASTLY better for it in too many ways. It irritates me that people hardly have to use their awareness anymore, I miss people having to pay attention to their environment, the player's gear (although gear awareness/mystery was ruined with transmogs) and cooldowns etc. Not far fetched to do at all, and many people are talking about wanting this. Cheers
The issue with add-ons is wow has been designed around them for years especially in pve. You hit the nail on the head with wow they would have to fix the UI and allow players to fix their UI.
Personally I would love if they removed addons. They are too large an advantage over people who don't use them and some are just too overpowered and break the balance of the game.
I do think it's too late though for them to be removed.
Only addons I would want would be bartender bagnon and xperl. Only reason I include xperl is because I love the updated moving character icon
tossed a like for the pause "look at this chain dude"
Show trinket CD's as a debuff, nerf offensive CD's into similar damage over a longer period (e.g. 100% for 5 -> 50% for 10) and get rid of permanent add ons. Would love it, but WAY too bursty rn where without EXACT knowledge every game ends in a one tap in a DR'd cc
Not sure if I'm for or against addons but it's an interesting discussion.
As someone who has raided mid-high end mythic raiding for a while, it is kind of depressing that so much of the gameplay in raids has become automated. By the time most guilds get to a boss on mythic, there's multiple weakauras/packs to download, and they play many aspects of the fight for you. You hear the cat noise, you walk to triangle, you hear a siren, get out of the bad zone, hell even fatescribe weakauras would assign all the players to their spots so there was no confusion. After like 10-15 pulls you're on full autopilot and only focused on your rotation, only becoming alert again when you hear a DBM/weakauras sound. I enjoy(ed) wow raiding, but in some ways it's not as engaging as it used to be or can be.
It's not playing for you.. you still need to execute the action. The workaround is easy it just takes way more planning and communication and people would need like 10x the pulls. Not fun
I mean .. if the stock ui didn’t suck so hard this could be a good idea.
Actually with they would just add some of these things into the base UI.
I think addons have allowed blizzard to neglect the base UI for so many years. To the point that new players are at a disadvantage until they learn about the addon “meta”. Now days PUGs will kick you if you don’t have a boss mod like DBM and guilds require it too.
the thing is, everyone is using them and if you aren't it's no fault but your own
Arena without addons is a completely different game. At this point you could make it an entirely different game mode with a seperate title and rewards.
all i need is certain buff trackers, thats what my weak auras are, like merciless bonegrinder for keystones on my warrior , its just easier to see the buff then trying to see it in 20 other buffs in the top right
I’m not a high rated player, my highest rating was HotH and only 2200 in 3s - so take this with a pinch of salt:
I truly believe that you should play with minimal addons. I personally cannot stand the game when it becomes so automated through addons etc; some addons are obviously fine (UI elements, moving pieces) but actual horns going off when someone pops combust off-screen is just gross.
I would rather be the rating I am than be 200/300 rating higher and feel like a massive part of that was automation.
While I understand the sentiment about removing addons in PVP because in the grand scheme of things it hasn't changed that much as PVE has in terms of complexity of the fights and the coordination required.
I feel like pve fights are this mechanic intensive due to devs knowing all normal and up raiders use dbm or similar addons.
@@davidcabrero2034 Yeah I agree I think it's been something that has evolved from both sides as addons require harder bosses which creates better addons to counter them.
I jumped ship off wow recently. The main reason was that I wasnt playing the game anymore, I was playing my interface.
As someone who raids at a CE level and pvps at a 2kish level, I would be down for no addons/trackers in pvp but not pve. Like if I’m playing warrior it’s super annoying to have my war breaker instantly disarmed everytime. But people don’t talk about the cool stuff blizzard is about to do with raid design. Raid fights have progressively gotten better over time as addons have evolved. Compare early raid design to modern, it’s not even close. Fights like Gruul in TBC are super boring, while fights like Sire Denathrius are incredible.
I've made a few forum threads about this and just get RIPPED and downvoted and even one month bans from bots because of the amount of people on there that hate this idea. After awhile some of the threads gain traction but there's a religious minority that hang out there who probably send Blizzard the signal that this is just NEVER supposed to happen.
The problems are so plentiful though, like Blizzard has less incentive to constantly be improving their own UI if nobody is using it anyways because of addon alternatives. Which actually makes for a WORSE new player experience. A lot of my friends just won't return to WoW because they've already gotten over that initial "noob" hump where they know enough about addons to know that the setup time required to customize an efficient UI to be maximally competitive is just more than they wanna do before actually being able to PLAY the game.
Blizzard might also adjust the way they handle boss tells and animations generally in the game if it weren't for the fact that we can just overload ourselves with WAs for everything. There's so much incentive to improve the game once you ban addons, and also it prevents players having a bad experience when an addon isn't updated or is causing unknown conflicts that create lag or other crashes in their game which they often blame Blizzard for, even though it's a behind the scenes conflict between two or more addons.
A non adjustable UI would be great. As long as you had QoL things like you could move any aspect of the ui where you wanted (moveanything) and the ability to resize etc.. I think would make for a far greater game, + you don't get the bullshit UI errors from addons, guilds don't EMPLOY weak aura coders for WF races. At this point the game is more World of UICraft.
Why are people so anti addons? It doesn't play the game for you at all. Just makes info easier to read. You still have to do the action of moving and casting the spell. Without addons wow in this current state would be unplayable. Pve raids well maby he is doable but mythic. Nah you need addons to even play it
The game is so different bro, everyone is so sweaty now I kinda agree
I don't PvP but I wish all non-UI addons were removed. It just creates a higher skill ceiling without them. I was watching a youtube video of someone playing De Other Side dungeon. During the last boss during the left, middle, right attack this dude had an addon where a giant arrow appeared over his toon telling him which way to run. The level of handholding of some of these addons is just ridiculous.
This will never happen though. There are too many big egos in the WoW community and addon removal would make many "good" players significantly worse and a lot of these people couldn't handle that.
Addons make handicapped play standard, so developers have to chase increasingly complicated mechanics to keep it a challenge, which leads to convoluted design choices. 100% believe that no addons would lead to a better and more comprehensively-designed game.
The problem with scripted gameplay isn't addons, but cooldown trading, because cooldowns are too strong and game outside of cooldowns isn't.
btw is kinda easy to pve raid without addons - because some cooldowns of every class skill matches the boss cooldowns - so u actually just keep track of the cooldowns u got ;) - we did most raids with no dbm allowed at all ;)
Addons has given blizzard a easy way to not improve ui at all. Honestly if the got rid of addons it would improve the game over time.
The fact that we have so many basically mandatory addons in all content even at a avg level goes to show that there's something wrong and that the game is designed with addons inmind which isn't good for alot of of things essentially accessibility to new players.
If they added an in game dps meter I’m cool with the rest going
WoW is completely dead to me at this point, but Blizzard removing addons and revamping their UI is one thing that could potentially bring me back. I fucking HATE every time I go back to play, I have to spend hours making the UI functional, removing all the garbage information that's not necessary, and adding what is. WoW needs an interface overhaul on top of killing addons.