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The reason why genroku is still a tuner is because that effect occurs in hand it’s not still treated as “that card” similar to Meeks effect to change the copy it summons to a level 4
The future of the game is some automatic fields, where you put your cards , the field reads it, and basically stops any illegal plays . Like if you try something illegal, message pops out : You can not.
Yeah, basically an hybrid between Master Duel and Dueling Book, you have to scan your hand and every card you use so the program can track illegal moves, but without the "autoplay/training wheels" that Master duel prompts create
8:00 To explain why it’s still a tuner, you can look at Eldlich’s GY effect vs Forbidden Droplet. Even if negated by droplet, Eldlich keeps its ATK boost and protection because the effect activate and resolves in the GY. The reason Genroku is still a tuner is because it resolves in hand to make itself a tuner THEN becomes a level 4 on field. If I’m correct, it’s because of the THEN clause that makes it a tuner but lose level modulation
Eldlich's attack boost stays even if it is negated on field because it can give another zombie monster other than itself the attack boost. The general rule of thumb is that if the effect can modulate a monster other than itself, then the modulation will stay even if the monster who activated the effect is later negated.
@@Exapiconope. Eldlich does not lose the stata because activated from the GY, returned to the hand (private zone), and then you special summon a zombie from your private zone; Genroku, instead, activates from hand, and summons itself only, making It 100% recognizable
@@francescolofaro8258 Exapico is right. You can compare Dogmatika Fleurdelis and Dragoon for an official ruling on the matter. This gets very weird with monsters changing characteristics as well (name, attribute, type) where even if they activate on the field they keep some and lose others. So we have to follow the "konami said so" of each individual characteristic instead of having a universal ruling about them.
@@francescolofaro8258 This distinction only makes sense in OCG tho. We don't differentiate how effects activate or resolve based on that on the TCG. This ruling will never make sense in the TCG because it stems from how Genroku is written in Japanese. They don't have PSCT in Japanese. "Then" doesn't mean the same in their cards. We just have to roll with it, but trying to explain it under TCG rules is a useless endeavor.
Oh damn! He made the exact ruling video I was asking for on the last video (tenpai dragon slash), cheers! Also, could you make a similar ruling video on end phase effects? Who resolves first, can you choose the order of which effect resolves first, etc (branded decks seem to have like three main phases)
Turn player resolves their effects first. To get more complicated, first the turn player has an opportunity to resolve end phase stuff, if they don’t want to use anything then they can pass it to their opponent to see if they have any end phase stuff. Right here the opponent can choose to either activate their effects or pass it back. When it’s passed back to turn player, this is their last chance to use end phase effects before passing it back to their opponents. So turn player -> opponent -> turn player -> opponent. So the non-turn player can choose to wait for their opponent to do stuff while the turn player can’t. And this is just end-phase effects, not quick effects.
So, Yu-Gi-Oh!'s weird game mechanics is designed to recognize when a card or effect's conditions can be met/applied. Tenpai Dragon Genroku's effect to turn itself into a Tuner "IN" hand when activated is applied in that moment. When Summoned, the "you can" part of it's effect will happen on board, and can be negated, since it's attempting to resolve its Level change on the field. However, game will still recognize Tenpai as a Tuner despite having the rest of its effect negated. As for cards like Black Rose. It's "You can" Trigger Effect is optional. Because of that, it's Synchro Summon MUST be the last thing to happen in order for it's Trigger Effect to activate. It cannot activate it's effect during the resolution chain, even if it was successfully Synchro Summoned. Only mandatory "IF" and "WHEN" effects activate AFTER other cards/effects are resolved, and will start new Chains.
What really irks me about this one is that it's confusing because its one effect but you end up resolving half of it on hand and half of it on the field. It's only one effect, but it's parts of it are treated differently. I can understand why people get confused on this one tbh
wrong. optional "if" trigger effects cannot miss timing; they can still be activated if the trigger happened at any point in the chain. it's only optional "when" trigger effects that can miss timing and must have the trigger occur as the last thing that happened. (all "if" effects cannot miss timing, "when" quick and mandatory trigger effects cannot miss timing; only optional "when" trigger effects) additionally, you are wrong about genroku. it took me a while to find the appropriate ruling, however, the battle fader vs skill drain ruling shows that even though it is technically on the field, and the second part of the effect occurs afterwards (because of the "then" conjunction), since it's still counted as being the same effect, it will not negate it. therefore genroku can definitely be summoned as a level 4 tuner under skill drain.
hmm. i've watched further into the video and i'm not really sure which ruling it would be for genroku,, i suppose it would be up to the judge since both rulings are applicable here in different aspects
@@literal-tree You were on the right tract. The original comment doesn't make any sense since a card effect activates AND FULLY resolves in the same place, even if parts of the entire effect resolve sequentially. Meanwhile about "if/when" you are 99% correct, again the original comment spreads non-sense that I hope will correct once they properly read your explanation. However "when" quick effects can be chainblocked thus missing their window to activate, while player priority also plays a factor allowing the opponent to prevent you from using them. An example can be Thunder Dragon Titan being blocked by Orcust monsters while Babel is faceup from directly chaining to your Thunder Dragons in your hand. For Genroku situation specifically, it's a ruling nightmare because changes to monster characteristics do not have a universal ruling/outcome. For example stat boosts (like Dragoon) that apply to themselves will be negated after Skill Drain is flipped, while Cyber Dragon Zwei will still keep its name. So we have to see every change differently, according to previous rulings. Levels in that case revert, same as ATK/DEF. But secondary typings (Tuner etc) or name changes stay. In addition, instead of the Trudea example that is essentially another card applying an effect to the "monster Trudea" (since when a card type changes completely the game state treats this as a different card) a better example would be the ATK boost of Dragoon versus Dogmatika Fleurdelis. When a stat change effects applies only to its own card (Dragoon) then negation will remove it, however when a stat change applies to your field (Fleur) it stays.
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For #4 The correct chain order shoulda been Fenrir Attack CL1 attempt to banish the Pain Yubel player CL2 activate Skill Drain this'll put the Fenrir player with a difficult choice. They have to choose to pop the Pain or Skill Drain But it doesnt matter cause CL3 Magnum banish Poly to target and pop one of them. To which CL4 Phantom tribute to change eff to pop a Yubel from deck Destroy Spirit and resolve chain. Board is negated, Skill Drain and Pain remain and the Yubel player is able to summon Yubel via Spirit and they win.
in this case the fenrir player should not go with c3, by resolving skill drain fenrir destroys phantom by battle, and he can push for LP with chimera and magnum
@@yurohus5213 still this isn't game on the board since Pain will deal 2400 damage from the fen attack to the chimera player, meanwhile Tom's example is a guaranteed OTK gifted by the Yubel player.
7:53 such a dumb ruling. in my opinion, both effects should NOT be negated. droplet negates the effects of the face up monster(s) on the field, but this effect activated and resolved in the hand
I as a tenpai playr, I'm baffled by the samurai destroyer thing, like wtf? so if I declare attack with that thing I can do as many quick effs uninterrupted as I want and it works?
@@MSTTVI would like some clarification on that cause to my understanding if an attack is declared and no cause happened for a replay of the sort, the attacking monster should conclude its battle?
you can change the unaffected monster's effect with Phantom because it's not affecting the monster itself, but if you try chaining solemn strike to negate the unaffected monster's effect, strike resolves without effect because the monster is unaffected make it make sense, konami, is the monster's effect part of the monster itself or not?
Strike doesn't negate the effect, it negates the *activation*. Ergo, you are not doing anything to the effect itself, you are negating the monster's activation.
@Carlet_S solemn is negating a monster attempting to activate its effect. Phantom of yubel is changing what the effect does as it's resolving. Phantom never interacts with the monster doing anything, just what the effect is going to do. It's really odd but that's how it works.
Hearing that changing effects do3snt affect the monster makes me think of the stack in magic. When you cast a spell (activate a card or attempt to summon a monster) or activate/trigger an ability (same in yugioh but ability is effect), they go onto the stack before they can resolve. So when you want to negate an ability on the stack, you target the ability on the stack, not the card that has/activated/triggered the ability.
The Genroku thing: monsters will lose all the modified properties that are 'printed' on a monster like type/attribute/atk/def/level but will retain stuff that was not printed on them like 'tuner' Ik its weird but thats how it is.
I don't get why Genroku Loses it's level. I know it's a special as a tuner, then you can increase, but those are both parts of the same effect that keeps it a tuner. So why doesn't it keep it's level? That doesn't follow any of the history of how negation works.
Both parts of that effect are activated and resolve in the hand as a separate card than the monster on the field that can be affected by droplet. I just feel like this is wrong.
@brandonelmore3268 I feel the same way. It's like saying you can droplet a drytron gamma eltanin on summon and stop the additional monster from being summoned from grave. Which you cannot.
Both of the examples you're giving are extremely different things. Effects that apply modifiers such as levels or stats are "removed" if the effects are negated as long as the effect can only be applied to the monster that's activating it. For example, if you negate apollousa, she will lose all her attack. But on the other hand, if you activate and resolve Eldlich the golden lord and you negate the card afterwards, he will keep the stats gain and protection since he could've potentially summoned another monster. In this case genroku can only apply that effect on himself, thus causing that negating his effects afterwards will make it lose the level gain.
In the theme of Yubel-Skill drain : What if I imperm your IP masquerena, then in new chain you try to activate its effect and I chain Phantom of Yubel ? Will I get to pop a yubel from deck ?
Here's an easier way to think about it: Pretend the printed text on Masquerena just said, "Your opponent destroys 1 "Yubel" monster in their hand, Deck, or field." from the get-go. That effect wouldn't go through if Masquerena was negated, so it doesn't go through when the real Masquerena's effect is overwritten by Phantom.
Effects activate AND resolve in the same place so Phantom resolves on the field. If you read skill drain, its effect applies only to "face-up monsters on the field", so Phantom by tributing itself as cost removes the card from the field so skill drain stops applying on it immediately. In a different case, if the opponent used Impermanence on Phantom before this interaction and then in a new chain Phantom is used, since the effect of Phantom will resolve on the field where it was previously negated by Imperm, it will be negated. Effects that activate and resolve in the GY say that activate there, for example Tour Guide summoning a negated Fiendish Rhino Warrior. Rhino's effect on field stays negated, but if you link it away it now activates in the GY, where Tour Guide's (or even imperm/veiler) effect has stopped applying
I have a simple occasion that has happened to me recently on master duel that i didn't understand Field is me with og yubel and nightmare pain active and opponent with skull guardian, lo and a diviner He's forced to attack and (stupidly so) he attacks with diviner first, yubel activates to deal burn and he negates with skull guardian as cl2. I was kinda expecting yubel to not be able to summon terror incarnate since its destruction happened as cl2... I guess since cl1 got its activation negated cl2 was the last thing to happen, right? Thanks to anyone answering this
You are right. When the activation is negated it's as if that chain link never happened, so the last thing to resolve was Yubel being destroyed by Skull Guardian. Also this was a fine play by VV player who knew the interaction because either case essentially negates the battle, thanks to Yubel specifically burning "before" damage calculation. The monster is removed from the field and we don't reach Damage Calculation for Pain to reflect damage, however we got into Damage step so the attacking monster won't be able to redeclare. That way the VV player abused the mandatory effect of Yubel and allowed themself either a direct attack with Skull Guardian by using Belle on Yubel, or the smart play have Skull Guardian in DEF and pop your Pains on your turn. I take back the "fine play" if they OTKed themselves with the ATK Skull Guardian (funnily I had that happen to me 4 times against VV in a regional lol)
@@babrad thanks for the clarification my guy, it helps a lot. And yes, he exactly killed himself with skull guardian right after, that's why I said that he wrongfully attacked first with diviner instead of skull guardian 🤣 I guess either way for VV summoning skull guardian against yubel is a death sentence since even in defence it's easy to OTK them through reflecting damage
Maybe y'all can help me with this ruling. I summon and activate Trident dragon sending two. It resolves. On a new chain I use summoning as 1 and my opponent chains imperm/droplet as 2 negating the trident dragion. Does the trident dragion keep it's extra two attacks or does it lose those?
It keeps the other two attacks, this came up in a big tournament I was in and the judge ruled it wrong. Trident keeps the additional attacks, even if it gets negated after the effect has resolved.
@@rezorteclipez4517 100% correct. Unlike stat changes that would wear off if the same monster applied them to itself (Dragoon), Trident still keeps the extra attacks. For a ruling reference in the database, you can refer to D/D/D Supreme King Kaiser in the future. Giving a verified example will almost always rule the situation in your favor with a competent judge.
The first ruling of Samurai and Tenpai still confuses me a bit, wouldn’t the summoning off of Sangen Kaimen cause a change in the board state and therefore cause the tenpai player to have to redeclare their attack?
common misconception. Redeclares arent a result of a change in monster numbers. Its a change in legal attack targets on the opponents field. And since only your monsters changed. There is no redeclare.
In the tempai 1st scenario I understand that if opp #of monster changes, samurai would need to redeclare its atk if they wanted to continue with its battle so why is it different from your own nunber of monsters changing
because the monster attacking is still the monster attacking, you can't recall an attack once it has been declared, you only get to replay an attack (NOT redeclare) and select another attack target is present or existing attack target is no longer available for attack
Because the number of your own monsters doesn't change the potential attack targets of my attacking monster. For example, if you use Imperm on my Hayate that declared a direct attack, you now took away 1 possible attack target (you), so Hayate can redeclare an attack to any of the previous targets except you. Me summoning a Bystial during the attack declaration of my Hayate wouldn't change the number of attack targets of Hayate in any way. But in case of Samurai Destroyer, even if it had to redeclare an attack to another monster because you changed the opponent's monster count, since this happens in an open game state without starting any chains, the entire time the opponent is locked by Samurai's effect. The only case Samurai's effect stops applying is if the attack is changed to a direct attack, so at that time Samurai doesn't battle any opponent's monster.
Black rose and trident Dragion has” when you can” triggers therefore it can miss timing. If Blackrose or trident are summoned from an effect chain Link 2 or higher. The last thing that occurred is no longer the summon of those monsters. Therefore cannot activate
I don't get why Tenpai Genroku's level goes back to 3 when you've negated its effect (to SS itself and then increase its level) after it has already resolved. The effect to increase its level already happened and is already applying when Genroku is negated by Droplet in your example, so why does negating its effect after it has resolved and applied do anything? It isn't a continuous-like effect. I would understand it easier if Genroku had a separate sentence that just said "You can also treat this card as being Level 4". Droplets would negate this effect with no confusion.
A gerenal rule of thumb is that if a monster theoretically can boost the level/attack of either itself or a different monster (say, eldlich the golden lord, which theoretically can summon any zombie from the hand, but is 99% of the time summoning itself) the boost will stay if the effects of that monster is negated. While a monster that can only boost it's own level/attack e.g. Accesscode Talker or Genroku will lose that boost if their effect is negated. As for the tuner thing, as far I'm aware, that is a case of konami said so where it keeps the tuner status where it would not keep an attack/level boost.
It doesn't have to do about self-applied effects but the "type change" specifically. You can see the same ruling on Cyber Dragon Zwei changing its name. Some characteristics are reverted (ATK/DEF/lvl) while others persist (name, secondary typing) so you need to refer to previous rulings individually for every case.
So, with example one regarding samurai destroyer I thought that when a new body hit the field, any active battle between monsters was canceled. If this is not the case, this means that once samurai destroyer declares battle, I could perform multiple chains and get to trident dragion, and after that, the battle steps will still be executed and the attack will be concreted?
Ruling you referenced is when a change of attacking targets happens leading to a potential replay of battle. In this case it would require the removal of opponents monster(s) and not the tenpai player's.
Even if you use your own removal against the opponent's board and Samurai redeclares attack to another monster, the yubel player is still locked. The only way to stop Samurai's effect from applying is to stop the attack or declare a direct attack (so it wont be battling a monster). From the point of the initial attack declaration until it stops applying or you successfully attack (this means reaching damage calculation, then also end of damage step) Samurai completely locks the opponent. Utopia the Lightning was busted for a reason, grandpa Armades is very proud.
Posting this comment before the 2 min mark so please don't come after me if he mentions it in the video. But here's a relevant ruling. Mukraker can tribute a monster yo protect your monsters from being destroyed However it cannot tribute a monster that is also going to be destroyed. If Raigeki is activated, mukraker cannot tribute to protect. Yes, even if they have a monster that cannot be destroyed by card effect, they cannot tribute it.
This isn't true. You can try this with a co-linked Nightmare Cerberus to Muck or Eternal Protector and Muck will allow you to tribute the monster that can't be destroyed by said card effect.
@@raygonzales2208 there is a difference in "marked for destruction" to "applying a destruction effect". For example Muckracker can tribute itself to save your board against a Raigeki if made with IP. When you resolve the destruction effect, it tries to apply and the "cannot be destroyed by card effects" will stop that, making said monsters eligible for tributes. Finally about simulators (speaking for official only so Master Duel), we have seen countless times that apart from literal bugs (getting fixed almost immediately after reporting) it's surprisingly accurate even when TCG gives different rulings on every event. For example Zero King Rage vs Evenly. And with the exception of IP vs Talent-Take where TCG is stuborn to not accept the change since "Couple of Aces" in Photon Hypernova, Master Duel is correct.
Quick question MST, I can't find this ruling anywhere. If a tenpai player has his field up, its main 1 and they summon paidra to search, opponent chains desirae to negate both field and paidra, what happens?
Unfortunately I dont have a reference to link but this happened to me before. My explanation should cover it though. Basically Desirae's effect is attempting to affect both cards at the same time. One card is unaffected during this window and the other isn't.
@@dimitarhinchovski1883 It's the same as Fire King Sanctuary protecting Island despite being destroyed by the opponent's Duster. When Desirae tries to apply, it does so simultaneously on both cards, so the protection of Summoning is still live to protect Paidra. It's a continuous effect so it had to be stopped previously, even if it were during the same chain link split by a "then" (not "and") keyword so the action happens sequentially.
I would argue both parts of Genroku are extern, so it would keep being a tuner and being lvl 4. It is not the same card (from hand) after it is on the field.
It is the same card, since the effect itself says "special summon THIS CARD", unlike Dangers saying "special summon X name" or even Eldlich. The confusion happens because some changes such as "Names" and "secondary typings" persist after negation while others (ATK/DEF/LVL) wear off.
@@babrad the wording from Centurion Trudea and Genroku is the same. Its states: Special Summon this card, then change level. Trudea is a trap and changes to a monster, thats why it is a different card. And Genroku in hand is a different card than Genroku on the field. So both effects are technically the same.
@@legromorph2854 it doesn't matter, genroku in hand doesn't change from trap to monster. You are confused by cards like ash blossom that if you use mechaba on them then they wouldn't be banished from the gy because they are indeed considered a different card and wouldn't be banished from the gy. If you use mechaba on genroku it will be banished
@@babrad The effects of Genroku and Trudea are the same, so they resolve the same. Genroku is considered in hand a different card than on the field. Trudea is considered a different card in the trap zone than in the monsterzone. (When both cards change to the zone) So both level changes/ tuner changes are considered to be given by a different card. That is why both of them will keep their changed level/ thr status of being a tuner.
This game needs to so much we really need to just start over the metas have been trash and the rulings need to be so clear its crazy when youre seeing pros like jesse misplaying at the highest level events like bro people who dedicate their lives still dont understand it 😭
No it does not stay at 4. That part to change it's level is separate, as it happens on the field at the player's discretion. It's not a separate effect, it's just being applied separately from it becoming a Tuner on activation.
I get where you're coming from, but the video is right. We know this because Konami said so. I know it contradicts a lot of what we already know about how effects work, but it is what it is.
To be fair I also feel like this is incorrect. That effect activates in the hand so it resolves in the hand. The monster in the hand that activated it's effect is not the same as the monster on the field that droplets is negating. This would completely contradict our entire history of how negation works. Make it make sense
@@Kal824 it DOES NOT apply seperately. Everything is 1 single effect, that applies sequentially. The reason is some changes persist after negation while others don't, that's why you have to see every change seperately.
For the first ruling, the part about the opponent not being able to use ghost belle is correct, you can however NOT use the tenpai synchro effects as described in this example. Fadras effect to revive activates in the start of the damage step, from here on out til the end of the battle step you cannot use effects that don't modify attack, negate activations or are specifically stated to be allowed to activate during this period. In short, in the example scenario samurai destroyer will protect fadras revive effect, it will however not be able to protect the synchro effect, since the synchro effect is not allowed to be activated before samurai destroyer has finished batteling.
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The reason why genroku is still a tuner is because that effect occurs in hand it’s not still treated as “that card” similar to Meeks effect to change the copy it summons to a level 4
The future of the game is some automatic fields, where you put your cards , the field reads it, and basically stops any illegal plays . Like if you try something illegal, message pops out : You can not.
Right, might as well do that
Yeah, basically an hybrid between Master Duel and Dueling Book, you have to scan your hand and every card you use so the program can track illegal moves, but without the "autoplay/training wheels" that Master duel prompts create
Or just read the cards
At that point we can start using a duel disk 💯💯
They finna make irl Master Duel
8:00 To explain why it’s still a tuner, you can look at Eldlich’s GY effect vs Forbidden Droplet. Even if negated by droplet, Eldlich keeps its ATK boost and protection because the effect activate and resolves in the GY.
The reason Genroku is still a tuner is because it resolves in hand to make itself a tuner THEN becomes a level 4 on field. If I’m correct, it’s because of the THEN clause that makes it a tuner but lose level modulation
Eldlich's attack boost stays even if it is negated on field because it can give another zombie monster other than itself the attack boost.
The general rule of thumb is that if the effect can modulate a monster other than itself, then the modulation will stay even if the monster who activated the effect is later negated.
@@Exapiconope. Eldlich does not lose the stata because activated from the GY, returned to the hand (private zone), and then you special summon a zombie from your private zone;
Genroku, instead, activates from hand, and summons itself only, making It 100% recognizable
Exapico is right
@@francescolofaro8258 Exapico is right. You can compare Dogmatika Fleurdelis and Dragoon for an official ruling on the matter.
This gets very weird with monsters changing characteristics as well (name, attribute, type) where even if they activate on the field they keep some and lose others. So we have to follow the "konami said so" of each individual characteristic instead of having a universal ruling about them.
@@francescolofaro8258 This distinction only makes sense in OCG tho. We don't differentiate how effects activate or resolve based on that on the TCG.
This ruling will never make sense in the TCG because it stems from how Genroku is written in Japanese. They don't have PSCT in Japanese. "Then" doesn't mean the same in their cards.
We just have to roll with it, but trying to explain it under TCG rules is a useless endeavor.
Droplet interactions make a lot of weird situations
At 6:30 the genroku not being straight 😭
more stuff to memorize from YGO: the law school game, where number of exceptions are just as many as the rules.
Scenario 4:
Yubel player: "Haha I change your effect now".
Chimera player: "What effect? 😏"
*blackbolt head explodes*
Oh damn! He made the exact ruling video I was asking for on the last video (tenpai dragon slash), cheers!
Also, could you make a similar ruling video on end phase effects? Who resolves first, can you choose the order of which effect resolves first, etc (branded decks seem to have like three main phases)
Turn player resolves their effects first.
To get more complicated, first the turn player has an opportunity to resolve end phase stuff, if they don’t want to use anything then they can pass it to their opponent to see if they have any end phase stuff. Right here the opponent can choose to either activate their effects or pass it back. When it’s passed back to turn player, this is their last chance to use end phase effects before passing it back to their opponents.
So turn player -> opponent -> turn player -> opponent. So the non-turn player can choose to wait for their opponent to do stuff while the turn player can’t. And this is just end-phase effects, not quick effects.
So, Yu-Gi-Oh!'s weird game mechanics is designed to recognize when a card or effect's conditions can be met/applied. Tenpai Dragon Genroku's effect to turn itself into a Tuner "IN" hand when activated is applied in that moment. When Summoned, the "you can" part of it's effect will happen on board, and can be negated, since it's attempting to resolve its Level change on the field. However, game will still recognize Tenpai as a Tuner despite having the rest of its effect negated.
As for cards like Black Rose. It's "You can" Trigger Effect is optional. Because of that, it's Synchro Summon MUST be the last thing to happen in order for it's Trigger Effect to activate. It cannot activate it's effect during the resolution chain, even if it was successfully Synchro Summoned.
Only mandatory "IF" and "WHEN" effects activate AFTER other cards/effects are resolved, and will start new Chains.
What really irks me about this one is that it's confusing because its one effect but you end up resolving half of it on hand and half of it on the field. It's only one effect, but it's parts of it are treated differently. I can understand why people get confused on this one tbh
wrong. optional "if" trigger effects cannot miss timing; they can still be activated if the trigger happened at any point in the chain. it's only optional "when" trigger effects that can miss timing and must have the trigger occur as the last thing that happened. (all "if" effects cannot miss timing, "when" quick and mandatory trigger effects cannot miss timing; only optional "when" trigger effects)
additionally, you are wrong about genroku. it took me a while to find the appropriate ruling, however, the battle fader vs skill drain ruling shows that even though it is technically on the field, and the second part of the effect occurs afterwards (because of the "then" conjunction), since it's still counted as being the same effect, it will not negate it. therefore genroku can definitely be summoned as a level 4 tuner under skill drain.
hmm. i've watched further into the video and i'm not really sure which ruling it would be for genroku,, i suppose it would be up to the judge since both rulings are applicable here in different aspects
final addition, i'm wrong on genroku.
@@literal-tree You were on the right tract. The original comment doesn't make any sense since a card effect activates AND FULLY resolves in the same place, even if parts of the entire effect resolve sequentially. Meanwhile about "if/when" you are 99% correct, again the original comment spreads non-sense that I hope will correct once they properly read your explanation. However "when" quick effects can be chainblocked thus missing their window to activate, while player priority also plays a factor allowing the opponent to prevent you from using them. An example can be Thunder Dragon Titan being blocked by Orcust monsters while Babel is faceup from directly chaining to your Thunder Dragons in your hand.
For Genroku situation specifically, it's a ruling nightmare because changes to monster characteristics do not have a universal ruling/outcome. For example stat boosts (like Dragoon) that apply to themselves will be negated after Skill Drain is flipped, while Cyber Dragon Zwei will still keep its name. So we have to see every change differently, according to previous rulings. Levels in that case revert, same as ATK/DEF. But secondary typings (Tuner etc) or name changes stay.
In addition, instead of the Trudea example that is essentially another card applying an effect to the "monster Trudea" (since when a card type changes completely the game state treats this as a different card) a better example would be the ATK boost of Dragoon versus Dogmatika Fleurdelis. When a stat change effects applies only to its own card (Dragoon) then negation will remove it, however when a stat change applies to your field (Fleur) it stays.
1:56 you’re welcome
Always appreciate these ruling videos thank you!! 💯
Thanks so much for the upload! I really need the tips and pointers regarding these cards as I’m starting to learn how to properly pilot them. Yu-Gi-Oh! Content creators like yourself go a long way into making the game more enjoyable. Keep up the good work!
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For #4
The correct chain order shoulda been
Fenrir Attack CL1 attempt to banish the Pain
Yubel player CL2 activate Skill Drain
this'll put the Fenrir player with a difficult choice. They have to choose to pop the Pain or Skill Drain
But it doesnt matter cause CL3 Magnum banish Poly to target and pop one of them. To which CL4 Phantom tribute to change eff to pop a Yubel from deck
Destroy Spirit and resolve chain.
Board is negated, Skill Drain and Pain remain and the Yubel player is able to summon Yubel via Spirit and they win.
in this case the fenrir player should not go with c3, by resolving skill drain fenrir destroys phantom by battle, and he can push for LP with chimera and magnum
@@yurohus5213 still this isn't game on the board since Pain will deal 2400 damage from the fen attack to the chimera player, meanwhile Tom's example is a guaranteed OTK gifted by the Yubel player.
7:53 such a dumb ruling. in my opinion, both effects should NOT be negated. droplet negates the effects of the face up monster(s) on the field, but this effect activated and resolved in the hand
I as a tenpai playr, I'm baffled by the samurai destroyer thing, like wtf? so if I declare attack with that thing I can do as many quick effs uninterrupted as I want and it works?
Uh yah! Tenpai Dragons literally can make a friggin cut scene when samurai attacks and goes full BANKAI!
Yes watch the euwcq finals or semi final. The tenpai player does exactly this
@@MSTTVI would like some clarification on that cause to my understanding if an attack is declared and no cause happened for a replay of the sort, the attacking monster should conclude its battle?
To sum it up, it all leads to stressful situations, lol 🤣🙌🏻🙏🏼
you can change the unaffected monster's effect with Phantom because it's not affecting the monster itself, but if you try chaining solemn strike to negate the unaffected monster's effect, strike resolves without effect because the monster is unaffected
make it make sense, konami, is the monster's effect part of the monster itself or not?
Strike doesn't negate the effect, it negates the *activation*. Ergo, you are not doing anything to the effect itself, you are negating the monster's activation.
@@TeamDreamhunter I'm attempting to negate the effect's activation though
@Carlet_S solemn is negating a monster attempting to activate its effect. Phantom of yubel is changing what the effect does as it's resolving. Phantom never interacts with the monster doing anything, just what the effect is going to do.
It's really odd but that's how it works.
Martin George Davis Kenneth Wilson Anthony
Lee Susan Young Jennifer Jackson Gary
Hearing that changing effects do3snt affect the monster makes me think of the stack in magic.
When you cast a spell (activate a card or attempt to summon a monster) or activate/trigger an ability (same in yugioh but ability is effect), they go onto the stack before they can resolve. So when you want to negate an ability on the stack, you target the ability on the stack, not the card that has/activated/triggered the ability.
The Genroku thing: monsters will lose all the modified properties that are 'printed' on a monster like type/attribute/atk/def/level but will retain stuff that was not printed on them like 'tuner'
Ik its weird but thats how it is.
Allen Brian Hall Brian Thomas Sarah
Samurai destroyer is the most broken card in Tenpai besides that god forsaken field spell they always somehow have two of.
Really? What about transcendent?
😢 I was waiting for your signature introduction the whole video
Great Video, Knowledge is power🔥 Will forsure be subscribing💪🏾
I don't get why Genroku Loses it's level. I know it's a special as a tuner, then you can increase, but those are both parts of the same effect that keeps it a tuner. So why doesn't it keep it's level? That doesn't follow any of the history of how negation works.
Both parts of that effect are activated and resolve in the hand as a separate card than the monster on the field that can be affected by droplet. I just feel like this is wrong.
@brandonelmore3268 I feel the same way. It's like saying you can droplet a drytron gamma eltanin on summon and stop the additional monster from being summoned from grave. Which you cannot.
@@PokemonMasterJaysonor when ppl imperm alpha or zeta and they go. "Why are you searching?"
Both of the examples you're giving are extremely different things. Effects that apply modifiers such as levels or stats are "removed" if the effects are negated as long as the effect can only be applied to the monster that's activating it. For example, if you negate apollousa, she will lose all her attack. But on the other hand, if you activate and resolve Eldlich the golden lord and you negate the card afterwards, he will keep the stats gain and protection since he could've potentially summoned another monster. In this case genroku can only apply that effect on himself, thus causing that negating his effects afterwards will make it lose the level gain.
The card summons and then applies the effect of gaining lvl plus tuner status
In the theme of Yubel-Skill drain :
What if I imperm your IP masquerena, then in new chain you try to activate its effect and I chain Phantom of Yubel ?
Will I get to pop a yubel from deck ?
@francoisnofl5940 Is Skill Drain face-up on the field?
I:P's effect resolves negated. So the effect changed is still negated.
@@Kal824 not at all. I was talking about Imperm ( but it's kinda the same )
@@DatsuJSB thx
Here's an easier way to think about it:
Pretend the printed text on Masquerena just said, "Your opponent destroys 1 "Yubel" monster in their hand, Deck, or field." from the get-go. That effect wouldn't go through if Masquerena was negated, so it doesn't go through when the real Masquerena's effect is overwritten by Phantom.
Does droplet has to half an atk to negate a monster?
The phantom of yubel tributes for cost but resolves engrave right? So a skill drain wouldn't affect phantom
Effects activate AND resolve in the same place so Phantom resolves on the field. If you read skill drain, its effect applies only to "face-up monsters on the field", so Phantom by tributing itself as cost removes the card from the field so skill drain stops applying on it immediately.
In a different case, if the opponent used Impermanence on Phantom before this interaction and then in a new chain Phantom is used, since the effect of Phantom will resolve on the field where it was previously negated by Imperm, it will be negated. Effects that activate and resolve in the GY say that activate there, for example Tour Guide summoning a negated Fiendish Rhino Warrior. Rhino's effect on field stays negated, but if you link it away it now activates in the GY, where Tour Guide's (or even imperm/veiler) effect has stopped applying
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Whose effect is it affecting Konami?
That ruling is complete nonsense.
It's the same as "affecting Xyz materials and not the Xyz itself" similarly to Xyz Encore versus Rhongo or Noir.
I have a simple occasion that has happened to me recently on master duel that i didn't understand
Field is me with og yubel and nightmare pain active and opponent with skull guardian, lo and a diviner
He's forced to attack and (stupidly so) he attacks with diviner first, yubel activates to deal burn and he negates with skull guardian as cl2. I was kinda expecting yubel to not be able to summon terror incarnate since its destruction happened as cl2... I guess since cl1 got its activation negated cl2 was the last thing to happen, right?
Thanks to anyone answering this
You are right. When the activation is negated it's as if that chain link never happened, so the last thing to resolve was Yubel being destroyed by Skull Guardian.
Also this was a fine play by VV player who knew the interaction because either case essentially negates the battle, thanks to Yubel specifically burning "before" damage calculation. The monster is removed from the field and we don't reach Damage Calculation for Pain to reflect damage, however we got into Damage step so the attacking monster won't be able to redeclare. That way the VV player abused the mandatory effect of Yubel and allowed themself either a direct attack with Skull Guardian by using Belle on Yubel, or the smart play have Skull Guardian in DEF and pop your Pains on your turn. I take back the "fine play" if they OTKed themselves with the ATK Skull Guardian (funnily I had that happen to me 4 times against VV in a regional lol)
@@babrad thanks for the clarification my guy, it helps a lot. And yes, he exactly killed himself with skull guardian right after, that's why I said that he wrongfully attacked first with diviner instead of skull guardian 🤣 I guess either way for VV summoning skull guardian against yubel is a death sentence since even in defence it's easy to OTK them through reflecting damage
Maybe y'all can help me with this ruling. I summon and activate Trident dragon sending two. It resolves. On a new chain I use summoning as 1 and my opponent chains imperm/droplet as 2 negating the trident dragion. Does the trident dragion keep it's extra two attacks or does it lose those?
It keeps the other two attacks, this came up in a big tournament I was in and the judge ruled it wrong.
Trident keeps the additional attacks, even if it gets negated after the effect has resolved.
@@rezorteclipez4517 100% correct. Unlike stat changes that would wear off if the same monster applied them to itself (Dragoon), Trident still keeps the extra attacks. For a ruling reference in the database, you can refer to D/D/D Supreme King Kaiser in the future. Giving a verified example will almost always rule the situation in your favor with a competent judge.
The first ruling of Samurai and Tenpai still confuses me a bit, wouldn’t the summoning off of Sangen Kaimen cause a change in the board state and therefore cause the tenpai player to have to redeclare their attack?
common misconception. Redeclares arent a result of a change in monster numbers. Its a change in legal attack targets on the opponents field. And since only your monsters changed. There is no redeclare.
Reply occurs when the opponents monsters count changes I believe, not your
In the tempai 1st scenario I understand that if opp #of monster changes, samurai would need to redeclare its atk if they wanted to continue with its battle so why is it different from your own nunber of monsters changing
because the monster attacking is still the monster attacking, you can't recall an attack once it has been declared, you only get to replay an attack (NOT redeclare) and select another attack target is present or existing attack target is no longer available for attack
Because the number of your own monsters doesn't change the potential attack targets of my attacking monster. For example, if you use Imperm on my Hayate that declared a direct attack, you now took away 1 possible attack target (you), so Hayate can redeclare an attack to any of the previous targets except you. Me summoning a Bystial during the attack declaration of my Hayate wouldn't change the number of attack targets of Hayate in any way.
But in case of Samurai Destroyer, even if it had to redeclare an attack to another monster because you changed the opponent's monster count, since this happens in an open game state without starting any chains, the entire time the opponent is locked by Samurai's effect. The only case Samurai's effect stops applying is if the attack is changed to a direct attack, so at that time Samurai doesn't battle any opponent's monster.
Do not understand the interactions of Black rose and trident
Black rose and trident Dragion has” when you can” triggers therefore it can miss timing.
If Blackrose or trident are summoned from an effect chain Link 2 or higher. The last thing that occurred is no longer the summon of those monsters. Therefore cannot activate
I don't get why Tenpai Genroku's level goes back to 3 when you've negated its effect (to SS itself and then increase its level) after it has already resolved. The effect to increase its level already happened and is already applying when Genroku is negated by Droplet in your example, so why does negating its effect after it has resolved and applied do anything? It isn't a continuous-like effect.
I would understand it easier if Genroku had a separate sentence that just said "You can also treat this card as being Level 4". Droplets would negate this effect with no confusion.
A gerenal rule of thumb is that if a monster theoretically can boost the level/attack of either itself or a different monster (say, eldlich the golden lord, which theoretically can summon any zombie from the hand, but is 99% of the time summoning itself) the boost will stay if the effects of that monster is negated. While a monster that can only boost it's own level/attack e.g. Accesscode Talker or Genroku will lose that boost if their effect is negated. As for the tuner thing, as far I'm aware, that is a case of konami said so where it keeps the tuner status where it would not keep an attack/level boost.
Self applied effects often can be negated once applied
It doesn't have to do about self-applied effects but the "type change" specifically. You can see the same ruling on Cyber Dragon Zwei changing its name. Some characteristics are reverted (ATK/DEF/lvl) while others persist (name, secondary typing) so you need to refer to previous rulings individually for every case.
So, with example one regarding samurai destroyer I thought that when a new body hit the field, any active battle between monsters was canceled. If this is not the case, this means that once samurai destroyer declares battle, I could perform multiple chains and get to trident dragion, and after that, the battle steps will still be executed and the attack will be concreted?
U don’t redeclare effects if only your number of monsters changed. So after kaimen resolves samurai still is attacking
Ruling you referenced is when a change of attacking targets happens leading to a potential replay of battle. In this case it would require the removal of opponents monster(s) and not the tenpai player's.
Even if you use your own removal against the opponent's board and Samurai redeclares attack to another monster, the yubel player is still locked. The only way to stop Samurai's effect from applying is to stop the attack or declare a direct attack (so it wont be battling a monster). From the point of the initial attack declaration until it stops applying or you successfully attack (this means reaching damage calculation, then also end of damage step) Samurai completely locks the opponent.
Utopia the Lightning was busted for a reason, grandpa Armades is very proud.
Posting this comment before the 2 min mark so please don't come after me if he mentions it in the video. But here's a relevant ruling.
Mukraker can tribute a monster yo protect your monsters from being destroyed However it cannot tribute a monster that is also going to be destroyed. If Raigeki is activated, mukraker cannot tribute to protect. Yes, even if they have a monster that cannot be destroyed by card effect, they cannot tribute it.
This isn't true. You can try this with a co-linked Nightmare Cerberus to Muck or Eternal Protector and Muck will allow you to tribute the monster that can't be destroyed by said card effect.
@babrad I see you are using simulators for rulings. Keep in mind that most simulators use ocg rulings AND can have errors which could skew rulings
@@raygonzales2208 there is a difference in "marked for destruction" to "applying a destruction effect". For example Muckracker can tribute itself to save your board against a Raigeki if made with IP.
When you resolve the destruction effect, it tries to apply and the "cannot be destroyed by card effects" will stop that, making said monsters eligible for tributes.
Finally about simulators (speaking for official only so Master Duel), we have seen countless times that apart from literal bugs (getting fixed almost immediately after reporting) it's surprisingly accurate even when TCG gives different rulings on every event. For example Zero King Rage vs Evenly. And with the exception of IP vs Talent-Take where TCG is stuborn to not accept the change since "Couple of Aces" in Photon Hypernova, Master Duel is correct.
@@raygonzales2208 Evoltile Pholis uses the same wording and can tribute indestructible monsters.
Quick question MST, I can't find this ruling anywhere. If a tenpai player has his field up, its main 1 and they summon paidra to search, opponent chains desirae to negate both field and paidra, what happens?
Paidra is unaffected until after resolution of desirae so only field spell gets negated.
@@InfiniteHAV0K I figured but how do I explain it?
Unfortunately I dont have a reference to link but this happened to me before. My explanation should cover it though. Basically Desirae's effect is attempting to affect both cards at the same time. One card is unaffected during this window and the other isn't.
@@dimitarhinchovski1883 It's the same as Fire King Sanctuary protecting Island despite being destroyed by the opponent's Duster. When Desirae tries to apply, it does so simultaneously on both cards, so the protection of Summoning is still live to protect Paidra. It's a continuous effect so it had to be stopped previously, even if it were during the same chain link split by a "then" (not "and") keyword so the action happens sequentially.
@@babrad Thank you very much.
I would argue both parts of Genroku are extern, so it would keep being a tuner and being lvl 4.
It is not the same card (from hand) after it is on the field.
Sorry it loses its level!
It is the same card, since the effect itself says "special summon THIS CARD", unlike Dangers saying "special summon X name" or even Eldlich. The confusion happens because some changes such as "Names" and "secondary typings" persist after negation while others (ATK/DEF/LVL) wear off.
@@babrad the wording from Centurion Trudea and Genroku is the same. Its states: Special Summon this card, then change level.
Trudea is a trap and changes to a monster, thats why it is a different card.
And Genroku in hand is a different card than Genroku on the field.
So both effects are technically the same.
@@legromorph2854 it doesn't matter, genroku in hand doesn't change from trap to monster. You are confused by cards like ash blossom that if you use mechaba on them then they wouldn't be banished from the gy because they are indeed considered a different card and wouldn't be banished from the gy. If you use mechaba on genroku it will be banished
@@babrad The effects of Genroku and Trudea are the same, so they resolve the same.
Genroku is considered in hand a different card than on the field.
Trudea is considered a different card in the trap zone than in the monsterzone.
(When both cards change to the zone)
So both level changes/ tuner changes are considered to be given by a different card. That is why both of them will keep their changed level/ thr status of being a tuner.
This game needs to so much we really need to just start over the metas have been trash and the rulings need to be so clear its crazy when youre seeing pros like jesse misplaying at the highest level events like bro people who dedicate their lives still dont understand it 😭
If you droplet the genroku it stays a 4 and a tuner it was an activated effect in hand that resolved. Not a continuous effect
No it does not stay at 4. That part to change it's level is separate, as it happens on the field at the player's discretion. It's not a separate effect, it's just being applied separately from it becoming a Tuner on activation.
I get where you're coming from, but the video is right. We know this because Konami said so.
I know it contradicts a lot of what we already know about how effects work, but it is what it is.
To be fair I also feel like this is incorrect. That effect activates in the hand so it resolves in the hand. The monster in the hand that activated it's effect is not the same as the monster on the field that droplets is negating. This would completely contradict our entire history of how negation works. Make it make sense
@@Kal824 it DOES NOT apply seperately. Everything is 1 single effect, that applies sequentially. The reason is some changes persist after negation while others don't, that's why you have to see every change seperately.
For the first ruling, the part about the opponent not being able to use ghost belle is correct, you can however NOT use the tenpai synchro effects as described in this example. Fadras effect to revive activates in the start of the damage step, from here on out til the end of the battle step you cannot use effects that don't modify attack, negate activations or are specifically stated to be allowed to activate during this period.
In short, in the example scenario samurai destroyer will protect fadras revive effect, it will however not be able to protect the synchro effect, since the synchro effect is not allowed to be activated before samurai destroyer has finished batteling.
Fadra's effect to revive can also activate on summon, so still before the damage step.
Fadra effect on SUMMON OR damage step, read your own card please!
Myb, probably confused it with Chandra or something, haven't actually played since euros after all. It was a nice explanation though