Tier lists are inherently subjective. They tell you more about the person making them than any measure of truth. It is not your job to convince me of anything, these are simply my thoughts borne of my experiences, which are wholly unique and distinct from yours. Remember that. Any 'authority' I have on this topic is borne of me making stealth content and guides/tutorial content on the Assassin's Creed franchise for the last seven years.
Dude what the hell, AC Valhalla and AC Odissey have literally the same stealth system as AC Origins. Just saying. Your list is subjective indeed, factproof I would say.
Alex Marin odyssey sucked because it had damage sponges but Valhalla I found is really good no damage sponges enemies good story best ac since unity but the guards do detect you easily but only when you are in red restricted areas
@@hlinneyefc75 In Odissey enemies stop being sponges of you upgrade the character though. Also in Valhalla, if you set the stealth difficulty on easy (by default is set on medium) enemies will stop detecting you immediatly, it will be like in the other ACs.
@@wolfchadaverageusenjoyerza8288 That's not true whatsoever, and I talk about this exact thing. Swapping difficulty doesn't make a difference in detection-rates at any distance. It does for a minimal number of players for whom the game isn't bugged, but I'm critiquing the game as it's experienced by the highest number of people.
Just curious. What’s your favorite AC game overall? With everything taken into account as far as stealth, story, gameplay, and you’re own preferences. Mine I think is probably Rogue. I really liked the stealth of Black Flag which was basically ported over into Rogue like you said, and I loved how it felt like the free-running provided a lot of paths through enemy hideouts, and New York. Plus, I’m a sucker for revenge tales, but anyways that’s my round about way of asking what you think.
The sad part is that not only are you right, but Ghost of Tsushima’s stealth isn’t even that great to begin with, the combat is way more enjoyable. That how in another level GoT is to AC games, despite be loving the AC franchise.
Whenever I hear someone mention AC3 stealth, I get Vietnam flashbacks to trying to get 100% sync on Conflict Looms (the one before Battle of Bunker Hill)
@@ABadassDragon Jcers, the pinned comment guy, is someone that goes ahead and does exactly that in one of his videos. it's called "Conflict Looms - Stealth Reaper, Full Sync | AC3 Remastered"
@@ABadassDragon Target the ship on the left first. Use poison darts to stealth kill everyone but the grenadier, then you’ll be able to air assassinate him freely. After that the second ship’s easy, because almost all the guards are not facing your objective. Find the right moment, get on board, set it on fire and run back into the water! Tried it today, I guarantee it works👍
It's just a breeze hearing you talking about mechanics across a franchise for almost an hour, don't know how you do it. This felt like a laid back retrospective but also a call to action about the current state of play, very nice
"We work in the *_dark_* to serve the light. We are *_Assassins."_* - Ezio Auditore da Firenze Ubisoft seemed to have forgotten it's own words. Stealth is key to an AC game, I don't give a crap if it's supposed to be a brutal Viking berserker or a Spartan rage Kratos. They're Assassins (or supposed to be), therefore they would've been indoctrinated in stealth combat.
@@woo9554 The Assassin's Creed, literally their doctrine or "rules" of the organization, has three tenets and one of which states as follows: _"Hide in plain sight, be one with the crowd."_ To be an Assassin, one has to “assassinate” people literally the word "assassination" means to inflict a *surprise* attack. Another tenet is to _"Never compromise the Brotherhood"_ which is basically saying to keep things in secrecy and espionage. The heart of the Assassin versus Templar conflict is wrapped around conspiracy. There's no way around it, Assassin's are meant to learn stealth even if it isn't the individuals main choice of combat.
I do love AC3 because of my man Connor/Ratonhnhaké:ton, but the stealth missions are just, bane of my existence, like the mission Conflict Looms 100% stealth. I hated it. Other than that I loved AC3, but again the stealth missions were kind of a turn off
@@chinwyian "Air Assassinate a Grenadier, oh and also don't get detected with our broken guard AI with 5 other guards in his proximity" . Hah yeah i get you
At this point I've almost given up on AC. The whole RPG thing just doesn't make sense for the series. It's sad, I've been playing these games since Ac2 and I really like them. It feels weird to say about a game series but it feels like a small part of my childhood and life in general is just dissipating slowly and slowly to the point where I don't even recognize it any more. With most game franchises when you put them side by side you can typically tell they're from that same franchise, but not AC, not any more, it just doesn't feel like the same game it used to be. Idk, maybe i'm just making too much of it but it bothers me to see this franchise I love so much grow further and further from what it was originally and I feel like we'll never get another "classic" Ac game. I get change is good for a franchise, but this just doesn't feel like good change. Side note I really want a non platformer Shao Jun game, or at least one that take place in a big Asian city.
"It feels weird to say about a game series but it feels like a small part of my childhood and life in general is just dissipating slowly and slowly to the point where I don't even recognize it any more." This. This is how I feel. A friend of mine recently mentioned on Twitter that, "Old AC fans don't owe New AC fans validation. Ubisoft taking the series in the direction it is, that's them validating YOU. When we miss classic AC, we just want back what we fell in love with. That's not gatekeeping." It really hit me hard. +10 on your Shao Jun comment, I think she deserves a 'main' game. She's a fascinating enough character and I'd love to see her come back in a big way.
I feel like Valhalla is trying to move away from the rpg stuff because they gave us back some social stealth and they decreased the rpg elements that were way too heavy in Odyssey
When I was little, I always watched how my brother played Assassin's Creed II. Recently, I picked up his old save file and started playing the game myself. I don't know the controls and I am the worst assassin ever, but I'm having a lot of fun and your videos explaining how the games work help me a lot! Thank you! Maybe someday I'll be a good assassin, haha
Watched it in full. Can’t say I really disagree with anything on here. In regards to Valhalla, there are a few things I’d like to add. Hitting “special” guards with sleep arrows is useless, as they will completely shake off the effect. The worst part is that it never used to be like this. On launch, sleep arrows guaranteed a guard to be unconscious, 100% of the time, and when they changed it to work this way, they never bothered to tell us about it anywhere; not in game or in patch notes. This makes the early game even _more_ frustrating, as the guards who shake off sleep arrows when hit directly with them _do_ get knocked unconscious when they are within the sleep gas cloud emitted by the level 2 variant of Thorn of Slumber. Another major issue is in regards to how guards detect you after seeing dead bodies in restricted/distrust areas. Seeing a corpse puts a guard into a sort of “aware” mode, which means that them getting even the _slightest glimpse_ of you pulls you instantly into combat. You don’t even get a detection ding, or SSI, or Emergency Arrow aim-time, it’s just straight into combat. Now, remember how I said that this applies both to restricted & distrust areas? Yep, that’s right, even if you have Cloak active and are walking facing the opposite direction of a guard, they will still instantly detect you if they are in this aware state. This is quite literally antithetical to the use of Low Profile assassinations, which Valhalla went out of their way to reintroduce. On launch, if you had Cloak active and were walking, assassinating someone would have Eivor do a quick stab that allowed the player to walk away before the body hit the ground and even kill guards while in direct line of sight of other enemies without being detected (outside of a certain radius), like in AC1 or AC3. Now, this mechanic has been gutted from the game, so the point of using Low Profile assassinations has also been removed. Yes, Valhalla technically reintroduced social stealth, but it also (after patches) completely _fucked_ one of its core elements, as far as AC is concerned. I’m so incredibly disappointed with the way the stealth turned out in this game. I went on the record multiple times to say that Valhalla was going to have the best stealth in the entire franchise, but I couldn’t have been further from the truth. What scares me is that, like you said, Ubi can see all of the player stats. They can see that “nobody is playing stealthily”. My worry is that they’ll use this as an excuse to ditch the playstyle altogether in future games by saying that “Well, everyone was having so much trouble with the stealth anyway, so we decided it would be better to remove it to make the game easier to play”. Am I being irrational/hyperbolic? Perhaps, but also maybe not, considering that’s literally the *EXACT SAME FUCKING EXCUSE THAT THEY USED FOR PARKOUR.* Combining that with how well Valhalla sold, and...yea, I’m honestly pretty nervous.
Chronicles China has been sitting in my library for quite a while and did not expect for it to be even included in the list, let alone be on top. I downloaded it, and after a few days of ghosting through the game, I truly believe it's actually a hidden gem that every AC fan should play! (Well at least the stealth-oriented folks)
It is, I did not imagine India and Russia being worse, this proves that gaming (quality) is about level design, and other design decisions and always will stay so. In these 10 years of gaming really lowering quality, players have still not understood it...
this video was the reason i played the chronicles games. i always just sort of assumed that they were bad and just fill ins until the next installment. i thank you sir!
I legit busted out laughing when it came time for AC3 lmao. Stealth is basically impossible unless you ALWAYS expect the worst and take NO risks. I discovered by accident that guards detect you based on the action's nature and NOT its visibility. An example is if you air assassinate a rooftop guard, the ones on street level will detect you on the first frames of the jumping animation no matter the fact the guard you're killing and the assassination will be out of sight. Also the fact that guards can hear bodies drop from a mile away. Oh, and if you call your recruits from stealth and they get into combat you WILL get detected and Connor will exit the hiding spot automatically... WTF
@@LeoKRogue lmao exactly. I also forgot to mention I had to abandon the playthrough of AC3 Remaster I was on because Connor LOST THE BOW wtf. It's a bug carried from the 2012 version that is unfixable and since AC3 obviously doesn't have multiple saves that's all she wrote. Nice.
Yes, but it also has its good things, for example the enemies are more intelligent than the rest of the games in the franchise (of the classic games) In AC 2 etc the enemies if they saw you in the distance they didn't come for you, when they saw a body they forgot almost quickly In AC3 you have one of the best AI, with its flaws that is. But it is applicable to all AC There are games that the enemies do not detect you from afar, etc., but in turn, their AI is one of the stupidest in the franchise, such as the Ezio trilogy, etc. But then there are others like AC3 where the AI sometimes seems like the Terminator detecting from below you, but it compensates by having an AI that when you are on the ground, if the enemies see you in the distance they will look for you, enemies that if they see a corpse and you are close they will go to warn you etc In short, no AC is perfect in stealth, and I see very unfair the bad treatment that has been given to Assassin' Creed 3 for the stealth issue in this video Because it has one of the best stealth systems, apart from the fact that thanks to Assassins Creed 3 there were many new stealth mechanics, which Unity copied etc.
Totally agree on Unity being S tier. I'd say it's even SS tier. IMO Unity is the best assassin's creed game considering parkour and stealth. It's difficult to control Arno, but if you master the game - there's nothing stopping you. You can climb everything super-quick and kill everyone ultra-quick. You just need time and thought put into the game, and you're good!
We knew the list already, in our hearts, but it was still needed to show it. The mask is off, Shao Jun is waifu and Legion is this year's AC. Fun Fact: LeoK is actually first in the comments...you just haven't detected him yet.
So I am currently playing AC3 for the first time, and have spent a fair amount of time in it. When I first watched this video, I was like, "Huh, AC3 doesn't look very hard or unforgiving in terms of stealth". Well, now that I have some time in the game, yeah, I truly get what Leo says here
Brotherhood's crossbow is legendary by itself. Edit: I'm surprised you didn't talk about how Valhalla's raids actively discouraged stealth by spawning in more enemies when raids begin and forcing players to start raids to collect resources. Or how most missions force you into large battles and conflicts, and actively remove the option of stealth. Or that you can't assassinate some enemies like zealots even with instant-assassination on.
Just getting back into the franchise I can say that I prefer Unity over the others. To me, the stealth, gear, parkour and consumables system they had worked best in the environment of Paris and I thoroughly enjoyed the storyline too. The physics were clunky to say the least but it never 100% drove me away from the game. The online mode is very fun, even when playing with randoms I still found myself running through the missions solo but with a mute companion at my side. Also the overall feel of upgrading Arno to fit your play style was a part I enjoyed the most, getting the full medieval set for max HP was funny however the practicalities of mixing the Sans Culottes with Medieval to get the best of HP and Stealth was something that lasted me beyond end game. Once again Leo, wonderful video, keep up the good work :)
I think that's a pretty reasonable way to describe Unity, yup. Kind of a weird game, but if you can give it your energy and stick with it, it will eventually reward you for your effort.
The new Assassin’s Creed games aren’t even that. They’re basically RPGs with the Assassin’s Creed title slapped on it. You don’t even play as assassins I’m AC Odyssey and Valhalla.
True enough. I don't technically _need_ to play as a Brotherhood Assassin for it to 'count' as an Assassin's Creed game, I consider Black Flag and Origins valuable neutral-POVs on the AC universe, both of which culminate in being Assassins one way or another. But, yeah, I think that the modern games have a number of issues in basic usability for their playstyles (combat, movement, stealth) that games like, say, Ghost of Tsushima do much better.
I have wanted something like this I always loved leo talks so you know I'll love this. Ima say it again ( And always going to say it ) your voice is AMAZING!
I know I'm preaching to the choir here but you really nailed it when you described Odyssey's stealth gameplay. I had to grind for hours so I could put points into crit chance, assassination damage, and adrenaline on assassination just to make it work. When you can get your spear to rank 5 and can use rank 3 abilities it can be a fun time to clear out forts but it feels more satisfying to clear out forts through stealth in a more realistic method. For example, the stealth in origins isn't exactly the most realistic but using the variety of tools at your disposal (great video on explaining the smoke bombs btw) feels more like you're a master assasin rather than just throwing your spear and magically teleporting to your enemies location and also being able to turn invisible which can make stealth stupidly easy. I had hoped they would get back to a more realistic route in valhalla but they seem to mostly stick with this demigod fantasy.
Valhalla is, to its credit, much more grounded than Odyssey. You don't really have any ability that you can't suspend disbelief for, or wave away with Animus hacks. I appreciate that a lot. What I don't appreciate is how hopelessly inconsistent the simple act of sneaking around enemies is in this game. You're either completely invisible or instantly known to the entire nation, there's nothing in-between.
@@LeoKRogue I agree, I usually have to stick to the rooftops and pick off enemies with the hunter bow. It just feels weird because they put emphasis on bringing back the hidden blade and for what? So you can kill around two enemies before and entire camp or fort detects you? I do hope they patch this in the future since there are gear sets that promote stealth (such as the hidden ones set) and its a damn shame that they're pretty much useless because you get detected almost immediately.
I remember trying to stealth through a town in Valhalla recently and it had one of those bells the guards could ring to alert the whole area of a problem. And I have never seen a thing be so useless in an AC game for the AI enemies, because as you said, EVERYONE knows you're there if you get caught in Valhalla. It sucks because the stealth can feel SO GOOD in this game when it works, but it can be broken so, so so easily. I had a blast navigating Ledescestre and Offchurch in the story full stealth, but in between those two things was Templebrough and that location sucked so bad. I got caught a couple times and managed to keep stealth by some miracle, but it got frustrating to the point I flat out gave up and hacked away because the guards just kept coming and coming and never stopped. And it's a damn shame, too. When you can hit that sweet spot for stealth in Valhalla it can be worth it, it can be exhilerating, but it's so hard to hit it that there often isn't a bloody point. It also sometimes just doesn't feel correct to play stealthy since Eivor is a viking :| I often find myself wishing I was playing Hytham instead, because then I'd feel more personally motivated to find stuff like the old bureaus and taking down the order targets - since in the grand scheme for Eivor the order feels tacked on and forgettable. :/
I think their trying to bring back Assassin's Creed by introducing Social Stealth again, you actually have a hidden blade, they decreased a lot of the RPG elements but the big problem is the broken stealth, but they have the Siege of Paris DLC that will probably fix a lot of their underlying issues and might also end up have Eivor becoming an Assassin and they might finally WEAR THE HIDDEN BLADE CORRECTLY AND NOT HAVE THIS VERY OBVIOUS WEAPON JUST HANGING OUT, but other than that I think Ubisoft is trying to bring Assassins Creed back
@@chaseanderson2726 For me my problem with the series is how we've kind of gotten stuck being a character that's not in the brotherhood at all in recent games. No matter what Siege of Paris brings, main game proper Valhalla Eivor is a viking first in every way and stealth is basically optional. The assassin way of sticking to the shadows conflict with their own interests. And that's the main thing that is pulling me out of the experience more often than my struggles with the stealth. Bringing back the social stealth and the hidden blade back is a good step forward, but I think what's needed to push it back into a nice middle ground is for a game to follow a character that is actively in the Assassin Brotherhood again instead of someone on the outside/fringe. That way the stealth and parkour is prioritized a little bit more not just because it's a gameplay pillar that deserves attention, but because it is the "preferred" method of action for the character we play. I've gotten a little better at staying hidden to be stealthy in Valhalla since my comment but it's really this part that bugs me more. I can play like an assassin would now, but Eivor's story and character is not that of an assassin, not truly. I don't feel a lot of personal investment/interest from Eivor regarding stuff like Order members and the Bureaus. I've been finding myself wishing I could play as Hytham instead.
Rogue has my favourite stealth, but unfortunately the encounters don't really have enough enemies, I feel like I use stealth im skipping the game because its over so quick.
Hope Leo sees this, and I’m pretty sure he’s already used/utilized this considering it’s almost Feb now but I found out if you are in a stalking zone and roll out of it, you won’t be detectable until the roll is complete, allowing easier movement between cover. Super useful in Aelfwood or whatever the final fortress in glowcestreshire is
I really enjoyed this video! Apart from your chill voice, I found it very informational and relaxing! I didn’t play Unity, Syndicate, Origins, Odyssey and Valhalla yet, so I am not eligible to speak about these games, but regarding the rest, I agree 98% of the time! Probably the only difference I would make is to put Black Flag and Rogue in S tier because I am amazed by the stealth system in these games. I always love remembering how I abused the hell out of it in order to make enemies my dancing puppets where I do whatever I want with them :D So much freedom in these two (maybe slightly more in Rogue even). I also love how accurately you described your thoughts on Chronicles, and I couldn’t agree more. I don’t know what happened after China, but India and Russia just felt different (I did like all three though, unlike you). India is probably my least favorite game overall, but stealth in India and Russia is really not that satisfying as it is in China. Given enemy positions and level architecture, India/Russia felt a lot more like a puzzle game and I hate puzzle games. China is a puzzle to a certain degree, but I felt a lot more quality in overall gameplay. I’m very excited to play Unity, Syndicate and Origins when I buy a new PC, not that I am not excited for Odyssey and Valhalla, but it really bugs me that an AC game doesn’t have proper stealth. I really hope I’ll disagree with you one day when I play these games as that means I enjoyed stealth 😂 Tier list videos like this one suit you and your commentary a lot
Thank you so much for the nice comment! I hope you eventually disagree with me on Valhalla as well, because THAT will mean they have patched it by the time you begin hahaha. It's quite helpful to hear that this kind of video suits me, I've been hearing that so much after releasing it that I'm really encouraged to make more.
@Leo K [Rogue] that was actually my subtle intention, I would like you to make more tier lists in the future, even if it’s not AC related, I’ll be happy to hear your thoughts :) Cheers
Revelations was the first game ever in which I actually enjoyed and actively engaged with stealth gameplay because of the bomb customization. I was barely 12 years old when I played it but it felt so good being able to complete objectives without activating alarms and feeling like an evil genius using my bombs in creative ways
Hey Leo! Just getting around to watching this in full over the last few days. This is such a great video, the way you clearly explain your views and go into minute detail about each game is great. This video gives a sense of being absolutely soaked in knowledge and it's so clear from hearing you speak how much of a pro you are. One of my favourite videos from you and I learned a ton of nuance between the games I didn't know existed. Watching this was the best part of my last few days! Keep up the good work and looking forward to watching more Leo K : )
I've played most of the older AC games, but after spending too much time yelling at my TV while playing Valhalla, I had to search and see if I was the only one who hated the stealth in this game. I love stealth but I get so frustrated with it in this game. Like you said, you get spotted immediately and so inconsistently it'll drive you crazy. Here's hoping they fix it, but probably not.
its funny i always loved revalations (in part because it was my first ac game) and i feel like its overshadowed by the other games to the point where its almost ignored, also the bombs and crafting them were really cool, i always loved messing around with the different types. Also ive never understood why that was the only game (to my knowledge) where you could actually THROW your bombs instead of dropping them at your feet, like its always baffled me why they didnt bring that back until unity
@@Yuri-fq9bi you can actually throw bombs in ac3 and rogue. In ac3 lock on to the enemy and wait till the cross hair glows, in rogue its explained in the story. Hope this helps you in your next playthrough :)
I completely agree with your tier list. Especially on AC3. Even though I love the story, experincing Connor’s/Ratonhnhaké:ton’s story, I hated the stealth missions. Especially Conlict Looms. It was near impossible to NOT get detected. Especially the “air assassinate a grenadier” objective. That was the bane of my existence. Just one stealth mission along the others that I hate.
Isn't it? Games usually try to improve over time but Cyberpunk 2077 and Ghost of Tsushima easily out-class Odyssey and Valhalla in terms of fluid, pleasant stealth gameplay. So sad.
Imagine playing Valhalla with Odin Sight that is bugged to not highlight enemy AI. Couldn't be me. The fact that this handicap doesn't actually feel like it alters the stealth dynamic for me is a testament to how broken it is at baseline. Great video, Leo!
Yeah, it really upsets me. I don't even know how they managed to get that done. All you had to do was use the perfectly serviceable cover, detection-rules, and enemy-states from Origins and Odyssey, and it would've been fine. But nope. Even if it would've taken more work to do so, it would have been worth it because a chunk of the playerbase wouldn't be imploding right now.
Various nerdy rants incoming: While I'd agree about AC1 in general, Jcers somehow found a way to make it look expressive and dynamic. That probably says more about the player than the game, but it's worth noting the potential is almost always there The recruits in Brotherhood and Revelations were the biggest improvement for me. When used alongside tool combos, they allowed you to get something like seven kills at a time with proper planning. It's been eight years since this feature was in the series. Think about that Revelations added such a huge number of tools, they would be difficult to count. It asked you to craft your own, so if all you used were smoke and firecrackers, then you probably didn't get the most out of the sandbox. It's easy to fall back on the same three you're familiar with because of the restrictions of your inventory, but once you learn to get creative, you can set traps, manipulate civilians, and remove entire groups without laying a finger on them. In fact, I should revisit this one with late-game crafting and see if I can freak some guards out with weird bomb combos AC3 introduced the breakneck pace and momentum by completely reworking the way your characters handle to smoothly chain from one kill to the next. In classic AC games, it doesn't matter how well you know your toolbelt; if one guard walks around the corner just as you plunge your blade into another, you'll never get to that gadget in time to avoid cascading detections. This was destructive for improv, and AC3 fixed it. We wouldn't value pace as much as we do today if it weren't for AC3 showing us how awesome it is. It was also here that crowds made the transition from static to dynamic, although they were unfortunately underutilized in the level design, and it added a lot of new assassination methods from various positions that either weren't possible before or didn't exist, including the rope tool moves Liberation has an entirely new playstyle available with The Lady outfit designed for ghost. Bribe your way through gates, pull guards around to use as mobile hiding spots, and completely remove your target from the mission area. There's nothing else in the series like it. The enemies also actually *try* to kill you in combat, so the alternative is somewhat challenging this time around. I liked this one so much I wrote a full-length review on Reddit. Liberation is my game💞 Black Flag's level design takes all the most obnoxious tropes of the series and dials them up to 11. Almost every stealth mission desyncs if you get spotted for even one frame. Eavesdrop targets are always on the move, in restricted areas with no blend opportunities, and desync if you reach yellow SSI three times. Tails are extremely plentiful for a pirate game and desync if you turn the camera more than 30 degrees away from the target for longer than ten seconds, regardless of visual obstructions. And if you thought normal tailing missions were bad, I present *naval tailing missions,* which cannot be completed without a minimap! It's also in a really poor technical state to this day, with easily replicatable bugs that completely break critical gameplay features. I can't make it through this game anymore According to Jcers, enemies in Rogue have rather obnoxious and inconsistent x-ray vision for dead bodies. This makes trying to kill everyone require a lot of memorizing the location of every hiding spot, but I guess if you're a ghost player it's not a big deal It's rather ironic how few games have ended up in the "fun but janky" category so far given how well that describes the series as a whole. I usually tend to gravitate away from tier lists because of the way they oversimplify things. There are so many things that go into stealth in Assassin's Creed: Movement, tools, detection mechanics, level design, technical consistency. Some of these are quite difficult to rate because different parts of them would end up on opposite ends of the spectrum, like with Unity's persistent bugs and legendary toolset. At least you know how to talk about this stuff without thinking too hard about the numbers Can you get through the last two Chronicles games without glitch? Regardless if you have to kill guards, I just found that feature so vapid (!)
@@LeoKRogue The issue with Black Flag is that it takes away your options. Assassin's Creed isn't *exclusively* a stealth series. In fact, I think the Kenway saga has some pretty exceptional combat, so sometimes I'll allow myself to get into a potentially challenging fight to see how badass I can make it look. But the level design in this game forces you into such narrow tactics that invalidate many playstyles, including but not limited to "reckless pirate with too many spy gadgets," which I consider the most authentic way to play Edward. Just because I can sneak all the levels doesn't mean I should have to, especially with so many restrictions to what type of stealth I use
Could you at some point make an ac tier list just giving your opinion on the game's story and gameplay? It would be cool to know your ranking on games that you don't talk about much like AC3 or Syndicate
happy birthday, Leo! :D thank you for pretty much singlehandedly revitalising ac for me some years ago, they were good games of my earlier years but after I stumbled in here, I realised how much more they can be. I've been keeping at least 2 ac games installed - one of which will always be ac1 - ever since. thank you for the hours upon hours of quality entertainment, both from your channel content and from my gameplay while applying your teachings. credit to lang for doxxing your birthday and all credit to you for having that chap start a channel (so I guess, thanks for even more quality entertainment lol) hope you and yours are doing well and staying healthy! all the best from italy, my dude!
@@LeoKRogue aww thanks, man :D oh damn me, they have ^^ btw, since youtube is utterly broken at the moment and you and the boys are utterly and terribly undersubscribed, I thought you might aswell put out some of those broken community posts? expand your reach and whatnot just a thought, grab the opportunity before yt fixes it :P
Hot damn, I don’t think I truly appreciated Origins’ stealth as much as I do now without watching this video and then going back and replaying it. It just has such a flow and fun sense of creativity to it despite no social stealth. I really hope they fix Valhalla cause it has so potential being squandered. I know this is late but great video man.
Thank you so much Jude. :) I _really_ hope they give Valhalla the attention it deserves, yeah. The game really does have so much potential, it hurts to see it like this.
im so glad u put AC Unity in the actual S tier. Unity is my favourite game from the entire AC series and it is really nice to see that i'm not the only one that appreciate stealth in this game
Thanks! While some of it is a matter of taste, I do think that based on what the game gives the player, stealth is typically stronger in Unity than most of the rest of the series, so I put it where it needs to be based on that.
I just finished Assassin's creed unity again, the stealth potential is there; but the jankyness of parkour and the delay in the movement system is very frustrating. I couldn't get in the flow I usually could be in like The older AC's or origins.
@@LeoKRogue Now the question how could they go back to their roots in the next game? More tools? Level design? Skill based parkour? What makes a definitive AC stealth experience?
I have completely given up on trying to play valhalla stealthily. I will pop a vein and have a brain stroke if I ever try again, I’m even getting angry just listening to leo talking about valhalla stealth
You serious? Like 90% of ACV can be taken on at a wildly low level as long as you use stealth and it's really forgiving. Stealth is the most effective of the play styles.
Great video. Stealth is the pillar in AC that i am the least well versed in, i am more of a parkour/combat guy, but i always try to go for stealth. And its really fun when it works out. Also hard agree on your Valhalla ranking. Stealth is so fucked in that game. From instant detection across the map and through objects to inconistent guard reactions, and essentially no way to actually get better at it e.g. no skills regarding detection speed, footstep sounds etc., only stealth damage, which is really limiting. So i always end up headshoting everyone or just solving it in combat because its faster, easier and not completely random wether i succed or not. Stealth is already kind of a gimmick in the Valhalla because of how easy it is, so when the player limits itself and plays unefficient in order to live a fantasy then it should at least work. This type of video would work well for the other 2 pillars, would it not ? :)
Thanks! Stealth is probably the least controversial topic because everyone can kind of see what makes it good or bad, Combat and Movement are much, much more controversial and fiery because people want different things from them. As an example, if I were to say Unity has the worst Combat in the series and the second-worst Parkour in the series, people would probably be furious -- but it's true.
@@LeoKRogue Haha yea, i would actually agree with that concrete example. And the discsussions on the main subreddit about which parkour and combat is the best will probably never end. I think doing a tierlist for combat and parkour could be a good reference for other people that don't want to explain the same stuff over and over again. If you would change of the categorie names a little bit in order to accomodate for the subjective nature of the ranking e.g. rate parkour under the premise of freedom of movement, player agency and amout of hand-holding. That way it would be easier for people to better understand why you rank somethng the way you do. I find that people often disagree with each other because they fail to realizie that they are looking for completely different things. Of course this is completely up to you but i would really enjoy having a video to refer to whenever i want to explain to someone why i like a certain kind of system. Just my 2 cents. I actually thought about doing something like this myself but i haven't really done any videos so i was afraid of not reachign a certain quality standard. But considering how often i talk about stuff like this anyway it doesn't seem to be a bad idea.
Interesting tier list. I will watch the full video, as I played all games besides chronicles and from Origins to Valhalla and never played the dlcs to Ac and Ac BF. I agree with you Leo.
Yo I couldn't agree more with ac valhallas placement, the detection system feels so random its like the game rolls a dice to see if a guard will detect me or if they will be oblivious to my presence. And the enemy placement in the bigger forts and outposts are so horrendous. I will attempt to full stealth a fort or try to get footage and then i come to an area where 4 guards are blocking each others lines of sight and i cant do anything about it so I end up just scraping the run because I hate the rpg styled combat with a passion.
This is a great description of the general experience I, and many other players, have been having. Thank you for your addition, the more people we can get to speak up about their experiences, the better the chance this game moves in a healthier direction over time.
@LeoK[Rogue] I didn’t preorder AC Valhalla bc of this and I ultimately got Ghost of Tsushima instead. Long story short I have platinum Ghost and wanted to know is it worth buying Valhalla now and if so which version would you feel is worth getting thanks and happy hunting
Thank you for playing Ghost of Tsushima! My favorite game of 2020, easily. As for whether it's worth buying Valhalla now, I would say, keep waiting. There are still *a lot* of bugs, and new bugs are being created with every new patch. When the game is stabilized and mostly-fixed, I will upload an Update video about it.
@@LeoKRogue Same I love Ghost. Speaking of uploading would you consider uploading your play through of Ghost of Tsushima bc I don’t have twitch and I would love to see more of how you played. Thanks for responding because like you I’ve been with AC for such a long time and have been really dissatisfied with these last AC rpg type games. Again I appreciate the response and am gladly awaiting your update video if it ever comes. Keep up the good work and thanks again.
Do you think Ubisoft are noticing the amount of love for the old games recently? If you go on the AC subreddit, a very significant amount of the posts are about the old games and how great they were. For a while, people who like the RPGs seemed to be the majority, but now it seems to be around half and half. Maybe new fans have been playing the old games.
What I dont like about Unity is that it feels very clunky to control Arno. Its actually very frustrating. I feel like Syndicate partially fixed this issue, even though its the same engine, it doesnt feel as clunky as Unity
Agreed. It's utterly brutal and people who say it's 'perfect after patches' are full of it LMAO. Unity has to be one of the clunkiest games in the series, and no amount of training or practice can 100% compensate for it.
Valhalla was my first AC game and if not for the fact I had a copy of unity that was laying around for idk 6 years that I never played, it would definitely be my last AC game LOL after playing unity I don't even want to go back to Valhalla
You're in good company, then. :P The first DLC for Valhalla is coming soon and I'm dreading what kind of weird-ass design it might have. I'll still play it so I can let people know what's up, but yeah.
@@LeoKRogue until I can complete the world events not even gonna download DLC for Valhalla lmao on a 2nd play through it worked, still would like to complete my initial game and not have to play it all over again you know, game is so grindy but yeah there is no stealth playing at all, when it does work I laugh xD
That was fast! Great breakdown, exactly what I want to see when I search for a tier list. Trying to find a list like this on general gaming sites is plain impossible: they either read like blurbs borrowed from Wikipedia or they focus on discussing the story, barely mentioning the game mechanics. This one gets straight to the point. Valhalla's wounds are still fresh, huh? Sucks to hear about it. From the previews I read it seemed that Ubisoft wanted to return to how earlier games handled stealth, after more RPG-heavy approach of previous two entries. Guess it didn't worked out for other reasons. And shame about 2&3rd Chronicles. First one was a very unexpected surprise. Do you know if the team responsible for it moved on to other Ubi's projects or did they try to make something similar without the AC brand? You convinced me to check out Unity -- I've seen plenty of memes making fun of it, but it seems like there was a good game hiding underneath the bugs. Still looks amazing too, after 6 years.
Thank you so, so much! If you do check out the game, I hope you enjoy it, and definitely feel free to ask questions since like the rest of this series, its positives all come with major caveats. Climax Studios seem to mostly do Ports of games, which is a shame. I think they have some real talent. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Climax_games
Really disappointing to hear that about Valhalla, was really excited for it. Hopefully by the time I get around to playing it they'll have fixed it up a bit. I'm not playing it till I've finished my series playthrough😁
Eh. The stat calculations are different enough to the point where the only guards who I didn't one-hit with Blade in ACO were Juggernauts (the big dudes in Forts) and specific bosses. Also, the level design in Origins is better than the level design in Odyssey, not to mention it has sleep darts and permits ghosting more often. Non-damage related stealth systems and traits are stronger in Origins. By that virtue alone, it's better than Odyssey, full stop. That said, yes, statted stealth is awful.
@@LeoKRogue It's not just the juggernauts. But every enemy with a red skull on their health bar. I remember in the beginning of the game in Siwa there's a treasure chest guarded by lvl 20 guard and I was level 7, and I can't stealth kill them, so I download a trainer, turn on 1-hit kill and say "fuck you ubisoft" everytime I kill a guard. There are numerous thing that pissed me off too, like instant detection, fucking slow motion, essential skills locked behind levelling system,... You even have to unlock a skill to be able to switch gear on the fly. But yeah level design is really good.
The closest thing to a smoke bomb in _Valhalla_ is that one predator bow that makes a sleep cloud on headshot. And even that's kinda iffy because of the range of the cloud is miniscule.
AC Origins is the closest the series felt like MGS V. Shame it didn't reach it, and probably never will. AC Syndicate is terrible. If I had a dollar for each time I did a front attack instead of front assassinate I'd be a millionaire. Spot on list all 'n all! Thanks
To be completely honest, I didn't expect Valhalla to end up as low as it did, but then again, I've not touched the game since I completed it a few weeks after launch. I didn't particularly love my time with it, and I remember getting really annoyed around the halfway point with how sterile the world felt to explore. Almost like a Witcher 3 lack of depth in general exploration with a half-assed stealth mechanic. But I thought this was due to me being a grumpy oldhead about the series. Sorry the game hasn't been able to keep your attention outside of the first run through the story, Leo. I lurked in stream for a bit and read the community posts about you enjoying the game, and in a way it allowed me to push through in my own playthrough. Hopefully Ubisoft doesn't completely cock up Massive's Star Wars project with their tendency to wash games of their charm and fun.
I always try to take each game on its own merits, even as some level of comparison to what came before is inevitable. And, yes, even when looked at standing on its own, Valhalla does so many things as a videogame that bother me. I'm glad you actually managed to finish it close to release, that's probably when it was at its best in terms of the freedom it gave you to just play it how you want. It still wasn't incredible, but it hadn't yet nerfed or removed all the useful stuff that currently no longer (or barely) exists.
everything you said in this video was 100% valid, and while I do agree that a mana system is a major L for an assassin's creed game with any stealth options at all, I think ubisoft was kinda just like let's keep making combat games and I was already locked into that when starting ORIGINS, not to mention odyssey and valhalla. atp it never made sense why they were still in the assassin's creed franchise, but I played them as combat games and somewhat just took myself out of the sneak around, use tools mindset, and somewhat enjoyed them (despite their other atrocities like the dime a dozen side quests and horrendous storylines). they were just, games with nice big open worlds that I could run around in and nothing more. thankfully ac mirage brought it back and it's the best game in the series since unity lol
I'm down for them doing anything, just wish if that was truly the intent they'd stop marketing stealth as being this cool viable valid thing for so many games in a row until eventually they cracked and relented and released Mirage, where they actually made a stealth game and wow, were honest in marketing that Basim is not a fighter. It's just interesting how they're fine communicating the truth of a game one way but not the other way, y'know? Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed those games alright for what they were, but this is a stealth tier list and not a "how good is this game" tier list so of course I had to discuss that.
SELL OUT. But tbh, I really think I agree with all the rankings that you've chosen. This seems really well thought out. I know these videos get old fast when overdone, but we've never really seen a tierlist come from a content creator like you. I think it would be particularly interesting to see how you would rank all major stealth games. So Ghost of Tsushima, Shadow of War, Uncharted 4, Assassin's Creed, Watch Dogs, Tomb Raider, Far Cry 5, etc. I think that would make for a good video.
Happy to help xD Meanwhile, I bought DooM 2016 and Eternal recently. I don't know when I'll play them because there's a heckton of games coming over the next ten days; Sep 10 | Tales of Arise Sep 14 | Deathloop Sep 17 | Aragami 2 [!!!]
I was with you aaaaaall the way to the end. But only til the end. I really love Valhalla’s stealth system and i love you Leo I really do but I just don’t agree with you. Though brotherhood and unity are both sooo fun man I really love watching your videos
If you don't agree with me, that means you don't experience the same bugs most players do. I'm happy for you! Let's pray Ubi doesn't patch the game in a way that breaks it for _you_ too xD
Oh hell yes, what better way to procrastinate. I'm 90 hours into Valhalla and I didn't find the book of knowledge about sleep arrows. Got the sexy assassin outfit, but the game is basically diablo to me at this point :)
I agree with most of what you said and how you ranked the games in terms of stealth. Haven't played Valhalla and the Chronicle games though, seems like I need to play Chronicles China someday. So can't really agree with you on that because I have no opinion on these games. The only thing I would personally rank differently, is Unity. I'd put it in like A or maybe B because it's a little bit too clunky for me to put it in S, but I can also understand that you are quite forgiving. I didn't play Unity nearly as much as you and my understanding of the stealth in Unity is probably not as deep as yours, so that could also be a factor. Nevertheless, great video and you are giving very good inputs.
Hahahaha, I wouldn't call it wholesome, I get pretty angry in my assessment of Valhalla and I'm getting a non-insignificant amount of people disagreeing, some of whom straight-up called it a "shit list." Fuck 'em though. I'm glad you liked it :D
I wanted to leave this comment when the video was released, but I remembered only now. I like stealth in AC Vallhala more than Unity. The reason is that there are gunners in Unity. Their AI is so broken that they break stealth almost everywhere they are. In Vallhala, the only problem is the instantaneous filling of the detection bar. I don't see this as a big problem, as time slows down upon detection and sleep arrows work just like berserker darts.
I can deal with gunners easy-peasy, if they can see you, you can shoot them with a Firearm, always, and rarely be detected. Valhalla has Archers, which are like gunners with longer sight ranges and wallhacks. The choice is pretty simple for me. Mind you, if my game (and the game of dozens of others) weren't horribly bugged, and if Ubisoft would actually addressed the overtuned detection-rates, Valhalla would be an amazing game. At launch, it was _hard_ but it _WORKED._ and enemies didn't see you when they weren't supposed to. (Through objects/hiding places etc) I would kill to come back to that state of the game.
Hey Leo, after seeing your review on ac vallhalla, i decided against buying it. But do you have any stealth games you would recommend besides dishonored,thief,splinter cell,mgs and the other big names?
Mark of the Ninja, A Plague Tale: Innocence has some stealth in it that I enjoyed, if you have a really strong computer, Cyberpunk 2077 is a good stealth game, Wildfire is fun but hard.
I started playing Mark of the Ninja today for the first time, blind playthrough, and it’s literally AC Chronicles but better. Thanks for recommending it, the gameplay in that game is buttery-smooth
Heh. With the _sheer amount_ of people who say "Unity is Underrated" every day, I think that at this point, Unity is rated exactly where it should be. :P
![Leo K [Rogue]](http://yt3.ggpht.com/ytc/AIdro_lU2XPRnoiDY_KR9FankuYDSJC2utR6y9iK6BreeHJD_PA=s48-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj)
![Assassin's Creed Unity: Dead Kings | No Upgrades [2019]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8sLrjQozWwA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Assassin's Creed II] Assassination Contracts | Commentary, No HUD](/img/1.gif)
Tier lists are inherently subjective. They tell you more about the person making them than any measure of truth. It is not your job to convince me of anything, these are simply my thoughts borne of my experiences, which are wholly unique and distinct from yours. Remember that. Any 'authority' I have on this topic is borne of me making stealth content and guides/tutorial content on the Assassin's Creed franchise for the last seven years.
Dude what the hell, AC Valhalla and AC Odissey have literally the same stealth system as AC Origins. Just saying. Your list is subjective indeed, factproof I would say.
Alex Marin odyssey sucked because it had damage sponges but Valhalla I found is really good no damage sponges enemies good story best ac since unity but the guards do detect you easily but only when you are in red restricted areas
@@hlinneyefc75 In Odissey enemies stop being sponges of you upgrade the character though. Also in Valhalla, if you set the stealth difficulty on easy (by default is set on medium) enemies will stop detecting you immediatly, it will be like in the other ACs.
@@wolfchadaverageusenjoyerza8288 That's not true whatsoever, and I talk about this exact thing. Swapping difficulty doesn't make a difference in detection-rates at any distance. It does for a minimal number of players for whom the game isn't bugged, but I'm critiquing the game as it's experienced by the highest number of people.
Just curious. What’s your favorite AC game overall? With everything taken into account as far as stealth, story, gameplay, and you’re own preferences. Mine I think is probably Rogue. I really liked the stealth of Black Flag which was basically ported over into Rogue like you said, and I loved how it felt like the free-running provided a lot of paths through enemy hideouts, and New York. Plus, I’m a sucker for revenge tales, but anyways that’s my round about way of asking what you think.
The best stealth system in the Assassin's Creed franchise is Ghost of Tsushima. It's in SSS Tier, Devil May Cry style.
SSSS tier is chaos theory
Ghossst Rank
Ghost of tsushimas stealth was so satisfying
The sad part is that not only are you right, but Ghost of Tsushima’s stealth isn’t even that great to begin with, the combat is way more enjoyable. That how in another level GoT is to AC games, despite be loving the AC franchise.
Hurts to say that, doesn't it?
Leo K has gone full AC RUclipsr, we can expect 30 different tier lists in the next 5 years, as well as yearly updates on existing ones
The only thing that could get me to do this was a request from a hero of mine lol
@@LeoKRogue are your subscribers not your heroes? Leo I’m hurt
Lol this sounds like a inside joke
@@LeoKRogue What about a tier list on story/atmosphere ? Would be nice to see where you rank them .
@@mihdin Story and Atmosphere are very subjective and I don't want to invalidate anyone's enjoyment of them. Combat and Movement are more likely.
Whenever I hear someone mention AC3 stealth, I get Vietnam flashbacks to trying to get 100% sync on Conflict Looms (the one before Battle of Bunker Hill)
Hahaha, that's classic. "Air Assassinate a Grenadier. Remain undetected while on the ships."
@@LeoKRogue Do you know a good guide for that mission or some tips? I never completed that mission without restarting at least once
Me: sees Conflict Looms
Also me: *confused screaming*
@@ABadassDragon Jcers, the pinned comment guy, is someone that goes ahead and does exactly that in one of his videos. it's called "Conflict Looms - Stealth Reaper, Full Sync | AC3 Remastered"
@@ABadassDragon Target the ship on the left first. Use poison darts to stealth kill everyone but the grenadier, then you’ll be able to air assassinate him freely. After that the second ship’s easy, because almost all the guards are not facing your objective. Find the right moment, get on board, set it on fire and run back into the water!
Tried it today, I guarantee it works👍
It's just a breeze hearing you talking about mechanics across a franchise for almost an hour, don't know how you do it. This felt like a laid back retrospective but also a call to action about the current state of play, very nice
I really appreciate that! :D
"We work in the *_dark_* to serve the light. We are *_Assassins."_* - Ezio Auditore da Firenze
Ubisoft seemed to have forgotten it's own words. Stealth is key to an AC game, I don't give a crap if it's supposed to be a brutal Viking berserker or a Spartan rage Kratos. They're Assassins (or supposed to be), therefore they would've been indoctrinated in stealth combat.
I wish 'evolution' didn't also have to mean 'throw away everything that made you You.'
@@LeoKRogue "It's evolving. Just backwards." 😂
A- to the fcking-men.
I mean, not necessarily. Who says an assassin needs to learn stealth?
@@woo9554 The Assassin's Creed, literally their doctrine or "rules" of the organization, has three tenets and one of which states as follows:
_"Hide in plain sight, be one with the crowd."_
To be an Assassin, one has to “assassinate” people literally the word "assassination" means to inflict a *surprise* attack.
Another tenet is to _"Never compromise the Brotherhood"_ which is basically saying to keep things in secrecy and espionage. The heart of the Assassin versus Templar conflict is wrapped around conspiracy.
There's no way around it, Assassin's are meant to learn stealth even if it isn't the individuals main choice of combat.
Haven't even watched yet, but I already know this gonna be juicy.
edit: my AC3 stan inside is crying :'(
:[
@@LeoKRogue Jokes aside, great video.
I do love AC3 because of my man Connor/Ratonhnhaké:ton, but the stealth missions are just, bane of my existence, like the mission Conflict Looms 100% stealth. I hated it. Other than that I loved AC3, but again the stealth missions were kind of a turn off
@@chinwyian "Air Assassinate a Grenadier, oh and also don't get detected with our broken guard AI with 5 other guards in his proximity" . Hah yeah i get you
At this point I've almost given up on AC. The whole RPG thing just doesn't make sense for the series. It's sad, I've been playing these games since Ac2 and I really like them. It feels weird to say about a game series but it feels like a small part of my childhood and life in general is just dissipating slowly and slowly to the point where I don't even recognize it any more. With most game franchises when you put them side by side you can typically tell they're from that same franchise, but not AC, not any more, it just doesn't feel like the same game it used to be. Idk, maybe i'm just making too much of it but it bothers me to see this franchise I love so much grow further and further from what it was originally and I feel like we'll never get another "classic" Ac game. I get change is good for a franchise, but this just doesn't feel like good change. Side note I really want a non platformer Shao Jun game, or at least one that take place in a big Asian city.
"It feels weird to say about a game series but it feels like a small part of my childhood and life in general is just dissipating slowly and slowly to the point where I don't even recognize it any more."
This. This is how I feel. A friend of mine recently mentioned on Twitter that, "Old AC fans don't owe New AC fans validation. Ubisoft taking the series in the direction it is, that's them validating YOU. When we miss classic AC, we just want back what we fell in love with. That's not gatekeeping." It really hit me hard.
+10 on your Shao Jun comment, I think she deserves a 'main' game. She's a fascinating enough character and I'd love to see her come back in a big way.
@@LeoKRogue brotherhood stealth, ac 1 parkour mechanics, and ac 2 level of story (with shao jun of course)
I feel like Valhalla is trying to move away from the rpg stuff because they gave us back some social stealth and they decreased the rpg elements that were way too heavy in Odyssey
Leo: AC 3
My mind: "Wait you can stealth in this game? I thought it was a tomahawk simulator"
Yeah, check out Lang and Jcers' videos ^__^
When I was little, I always watched how my brother played Assassin's Creed II. Recently, I picked up his old save file and started playing the game myself. I don't know the controls and I am the worst assassin ever, but I'm having a lot of fun and your videos explaining how the games work help me a lot! Thank you! Maybe someday I'll be a good assassin, haha
Thank you so much!
Watched it in full. Can’t say I really disagree with anything on here. In regards to Valhalla, there are a few things I’d like to add.
Hitting “special” guards with sleep arrows is useless, as they will completely shake off the effect. The worst part is that it never used to be like this. On launch, sleep arrows guaranteed a guard to be unconscious, 100% of the time, and when they changed it to work this way, they never bothered to tell us about it anywhere; not in game or in patch notes. This makes the early game even _more_ frustrating, as the guards who shake off sleep arrows when hit directly with them _do_ get knocked unconscious when they are within the sleep gas cloud emitted by the level 2 variant of Thorn of Slumber.
Another major issue is in regards to how guards detect you after seeing dead bodies in restricted/distrust areas. Seeing a corpse puts a guard into a sort of “aware” mode, which means that them getting even the _slightest glimpse_ of you pulls you instantly into combat. You don’t even get a detection ding, or SSI, or Emergency Arrow aim-time, it’s just straight into combat. Now, remember how I said that this applies both to restricted & distrust areas? Yep, that’s right, even if you have Cloak active and are walking facing the opposite direction of a guard, they will still instantly detect you if they are in this aware state. This is quite literally antithetical to the use of Low Profile assassinations, which Valhalla went out of their way to reintroduce. On launch, if you had Cloak active and were walking, assassinating someone would have Eivor do a quick stab that allowed the player to walk away before the body hit the ground and even kill guards while in direct line of sight of other enemies without being detected (outside of a certain radius), like in AC1 or AC3. Now, this mechanic has been gutted from the game, so the point of using Low Profile assassinations has also been removed. Yes, Valhalla technically reintroduced social stealth, but it also (after patches) completely _fucked_ one of its core elements, as far as AC is concerned.
I’m so incredibly disappointed with the way the stealth turned out in this game. I went on the record multiple times to say that Valhalla was going to have the best stealth in the entire franchise, but I couldn’t have been further from the truth. What scares me is that, like you said, Ubi can see all of the player stats. They can see that “nobody is playing stealthily”. My worry is that they’ll use this as an excuse to ditch the playstyle altogether in future games by saying that “Well, everyone was having so much trouble with the stealth anyway, so we decided it would be better to remove it to make the game easier to play”. Am I being irrational/hyperbolic? Perhaps, but also maybe not, considering that’s literally the *EXACT SAME FUCKING EXCUSE THAT THEY USED FOR PARKOUR.* Combining that with how well Valhalla sold, and...yea, I’m honestly pretty nervous.
At this point, I have given up on making stealth consistent.
Wow, Ubisoft, wow. How can they always got it right then they got it wrong at the same time smh.
@@blackT1E At this point im starting to give up on AC in general
Wow man! Good observationS. Don't forget to post this on off. forum.
Yo that's a good point. Post this on Reddit if you can
i knew he would either put unity in S or hell tier lol
If Unity wasn't in S-Tier I'd probably get immense amounts of hate-mail, even though in reality I wouldn't actually put it above a B.
@@LeoKRogue so this is not a honest list?
@@jereroivanen7263 It's pretty honest, but I was quite forgiving to all the games. If I were even harsher, most of these would be lower.
@@LeoKRogue okay cool
@@LeoKRogue What is your favorite stealth game?
Also, I'm honestly surprised you don't play dishonored.
"AC3..." pauses. "... ok."
hahahaha
I would air assassinate a red coat then someone instantly turns around and I go into combat
Chronicles China has been sitting in my library for quite a while and did not expect for it to be even included in the list, let alone be on top.
I downloaded it, and after a few days of ghosting through the game, I truly believe it's actually a hidden gem that every AC fan should play! (Well at least the stealth-oriented folks)
I'm so glad I could turn you toward this game! Happy you enjoyed it too. :D
It is, I did not imagine India and Russia being worse, this proves that gaming (quality) is about level design, and other design decisions and always will stay so.
In these 10 years of gaming really lowering quality, players have still not understood it...
this video was the reason i played the chronicles games. i always just sort of assumed that they were bad and just fill ins until the next installment. i thank you sir!
Sweet, thanks for giving them a shot. :D
I legit busted out laughing when it came time for AC3 lmao.
Stealth is basically impossible unless you ALWAYS expect the worst and take NO risks. I discovered by accident that guards detect you based on the action's nature and NOT its visibility. An example is if you air assassinate a rooftop guard, the ones on street level will detect you on the first frames of the jumping animation no matter the fact the guard you're killing and the assassination will be out of sight. Also the fact that guards can hear bodies drop from a mile away. Oh, and if you call your recruits from stealth and they get into combat you WILL get detected and Connor will exit the hiding spot automatically... WTF
Let's be honest, everyone knew that was coming xD
"Assassin's Creed III... ... _okay."_
@@LeoKRogue lmao exactly. I also forgot to mention I had to abandon the playthrough of AC3 Remaster I was on because Connor LOST THE BOW wtf. It's a bug carried from the 2012 version that is unfixable and since AC3 obviously doesn't have multiple saves that's all she wrote. Nice.
@@mwjgcreeves4984 backup your saves.. its not hard
Yes, but it also has its good things, for example the enemies are more intelligent than the rest of the games in the franchise (of the classic games)
In AC 2 etc the enemies if they saw you in the distance they didn't come for you, when they saw a body they forgot almost quickly
In AC3 you have one of the best AI, with its flaws that is.
But it is applicable to all AC
There are games that the enemies do not detect you from afar, etc., but in turn, their AI is one of the stupidest in the franchise, such as the Ezio trilogy, etc.
But then there are others like AC3 where the AI sometimes seems like the Terminator detecting from below you, but it compensates by having an AI that when you are on the ground, if the enemies see you in the distance they will look for you, enemies that if they see a corpse and you are close they will go to warn you
etc
In short, no AC is perfect in stealth, and I see very unfair the bad treatment that has been given to Assassin' Creed 3 for the stealth issue in this video
Because it has one of the best stealth systems, apart from the fact that thanks to Assassins Creed 3 there were many new stealth mechanics, which Unity copied etc.
Not expected, but very much needed.
Glad!
I totally agree with AC Chronicles China and its ghost rating system being legendary! Great vid.
Thanks Milan ^_^
It more like Dishonored and everything like Dishonored is amazing
Totally agree on Unity being S tier. I'd say it's even SS tier. IMO Unity is the best assassin's creed game considering parkour and stealth. It's difficult to control Arno, but if you master the game - there's nothing stopping you. You can climb everything super-quick and kill everyone ultra-quick. You just need time and thought put into the game, and you're good!
be careful with the "SS" label :p
@@Pedro_Le_Chefholy! Lmaooo
correction : not master the game, master the jamk
But Leo, Assassin's Creed is an oPEn-wORld rpG with dragon birds and flaming horses.
Huh?
feels all kinds of bad, man
@@00Batman yuh
We knew the list already, in our hearts, but it was still needed to show it.
The mask is off, Shao Jun is waifu and Legion is this year's AC.
Fun Fact: LeoK is actually first in the comments...you just haven't detected him yet.
LOL
Yeah (last years).
So I am currently playing AC3 for the first time, and have spent a fair amount of time in it. When I first watched this video, I was like, "Huh, AC3 doesn't look very hard or unforgiving in terms of stealth". Well, now that I have some time in the game, yeah, I truly get what Leo says here
Glad you've seen the light haha
Yeah I'm doing my first play through now as well, it's a brilliant game but stealth is impossible 😂
@@StealthAC yeah exactly. The SSI is BS
Brotherhood's crossbow is legendary by itself.
Edit: I'm surprised you didn't talk about how Valhalla's raids actively discouraged stealth by spawning in more enemies when raids begin and forcing players to start raids to collect resources. Or how most missions force you into large battles and conflicts, and actively remove the option of stealth. Or that you can't assassinate some enemies like zealots even with instant-assassination on.
Just getting back into the franchise I can say that I prefer Unity over the others. To me, the stealth, gear, parkour and consumables system they had worked best in the environment of Paris and I thoroughly enjoyed the storyline too. The physics were clunky to say the least but it never 100% drove me away from the game. The online mode is very fun, even when playing with randoms I still found myself running through the missions solo but with a mute companion at my side. Also the overall feel of upgrading Arno to fit your play style was a part I enjoyed the most, getting the full medieval set for max HP was funny however the practicalities of mixing the Sans Culottes with Medieval to get the best of HP and Stealth was something that lasted me beyond end game.
Once again Leo, wonderful video, keep up the good work :)
I think that's a pretty reasonable way to describe Unity, yup.
Kind of a weird game, but if you can give it your energy and stick with it, it will eventually reward you for your effort.
I liked AC Unity and Syndicate the most in stealth
The new Assassin’s Creed games aren’t even that. They’re basically RPGs with the Assassin’s Creed title slapped on it. You don’t even play as assassins I’m AC Odyssey and Valhalla.
True enough. I don't technically _need_ to play as a Brotherhood Assassin for it to 'count' as an Assassin's Creed game, I consider Black Flag and Origins valuable neutral-POVs on the AC universe, both of which culminate in being Assassins one way or another. But, yeah, I think that the modern games have a number of issues in basic usability for their playstyles (combat, movement, stealth) that games like, say, Ghost of Tsushima do much better.
You saved me 20 dollars with this comment
@@demidog6049 I’m glad I helped somebody save their money. I payed $60 for the game.
@@yeetvp6244 I am sorry for your loss...😞
Things change you can’t have the same thing forever I actually love the new games
I have wanted something like this I always loved leo talks so you know I'll love this. Ima say it again ( And always going to say it ) your voice is AMAZING!
Heyyy, thanks so much!
It seems people are receiving this kind of content very well, so I may make more.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here but you really nailed it when you described Odyssey's stealth gameplay. I had to grind for hours so I could put points into crit chance, assassination damage, and adrenaline on assassination just to make it work. When you can get your spear to rank 5 and can use rank 3 abilities it can be a fun time to clear out forts but it feels more satisfying to clear out forts through stealth in a more realistic method. For example, the stealth in origins isn't exactly the most realistic but using the variety of tools at your disposal (great video on explaining the smoke bombs btw) feels more like you're a master assasin rather than just throwing your spear and magically teleporting to your enemies location and also being able to turn invisible which can make stealth stupidly easy. I had hoped they would get back to a more realistic route in valhalla but they seem to mostly stick with this demigod fantasy.
Valhalla is, to its credit, much more grounded than Odyssey. You don't really have any ability that you can't suspend disbelief for, or wave away with Animus hacks. I appreciate that a lot. What I don't appreciate is how hopelessly inconsistent the simple act of sneaking around enemies is in this game. You're either completely invisible or instantly known to the entire nation, there's nothing in-between.
@@LeoKRogue I agree, I usually have to stick to the rooftops and pick off enemies with the hunter bow. It just feels weird because they put emphasis on bringing back the hidden blade and for what? So you can kill around two enemies before and entire camp or fort detects you? I do hope they patch this in the future since there are gear sets that promote stealth (such as the hidden ones set) and its a damn shame that they're pretty much useless because you get detected almost immediately.
I remember trying to stealth through a town in Valhalla recently and it had one of those bells the guards could ring to alert the whole area of a problem. And I have never seen a thing be so useless in an AC game for the AI enemies, because as you said, EVERYONE knows you're there if you get caught in Valhalla.
It sucks because the stealth can feel SO GOOD in this game when it works, but it can be broken so, so so easily. I had a blast navigating Ledescestre and Offchurch in the story full stealth, but in between those two things was Templebrough and that location sucked so bad. I got caught a couple times and managed to keep stealth by some miracle, but it got frustrating to the point I flat out gave up and hacked away because the guards just kept coming and coming and never stopped.
And it's a damn shame, too. When you can hit that sweet spot for stealth in Valhalla it can be worth it, it can be exhilerating, but it's so hard to hit it that there often isn't a bloody point. It also sometimes just doesn't feel correct to play stealthy since Eivor is a viking :| I often find myself wishing I was playing Hytham instead, because then I'd feel more personally motivated to find stuff like the old bureaus and taking down the order targets - since in the grand scheme for Eivor the order feels tacked on and forgettable. :/
I think their trying to bring back Assassin's Creed by introducing Social Stealth again, you actually have a hidden blade, they decreased a lot of the RPG elements but the big problem is the broken stealth, but they have the Siege of Paris DLC that will probably fix a lot of their underlying issues and might also end up have Eivor becoming an Assassin and they might finally WEAR THE HIDDEN BLADE CORRECTLY AND NOT HAVE THIS VERY OBVIOUS WEAPON JUST HANGING OUT, but other than that I think Ubisoft is trying to bring Assassins Creed back
@@chaseanderson2726 For me my problem with the series is how we've kind of gotten stuck being a character that's not in the brotherhood at all in recent games. No matter what Siege of Paris brings, main game proper Valhalla Eivor is a viking first in every way and stealth is basically optional. The assassin way of sticking to the shadows conflict with their own interests. And that's the main thing that is pulling me out of the experience more often than my struggles with the stealth.
Bringing back the social stealth and the hidden blade back is a good step forward, but I think what's needed to push it back into a nice middle ground is for a game to follow a character that is actively in the Assassin Brotherhood again instead of someone on the outside/fringe. That way the stealth and parkour is prioritized a little bit more not just because it's a gameplay pillar that deserves attention, but because it is the "preferred" method of action for the character we play.
I've gotten a little better at staying hidden to be stealthy in Valhalla since my comment but it's really this part that bugs me more. I can play like an assassin would now, but Eivor's story and character is not that of an assassin, not truly. I don't feel a lot of personal investment/interest from Eivor regarding stuff like Order members and the Bureaus. I've been finding myself wishing I could play as Hytham instead.
AC Unity. Pinnacle of AC stealth, hands down in my opinion
Agreed it seems a lot more effective and practical
I figured some people would say so.
@@LeoKRogue lol u have a pretty pro-unity audience
Rogue has my favourite stealth, but unfortunately the encounters don't really have enough enemies, I feel like I use stealth im skipping the game because its over so quick.
Hope Leo sees this, and I’m pretty sure he’s already used/utilized this considering it’s almost Feb now but I found out if you are in a stalking zone and roll out of it, you won’t be detectable until the roll is complete, allowing easier movement between cover. Super useful in Aelfwood or whatever the final fortress in glowcestreshire is
That's super cool! If Valhalla is ever patched and I decide to play it again, I'll make use of this.
You should do one for your favorite stealth games in general
Metal Gear Solid V, Ghost of Tsushima, Dishonored 1
I really enjoyed this video!
Apart from your chill voice, I found it very informational and relaxing! I didn’t play Unity, Syndicate, Origins, Odyssey and Valhalla yet, so I am not eligible to speak about these games, but regarding the rest, I agree 98% of the time! Probably the only difference I would make is to put Black Flag and Rogue in S tier because I am amazed by the stealth system in these games. I always love remembering how I abused the hell out of it in order to make enemies my dancing puppets where I do whatever I want with them :D So much freedom in these two (maybe slightly more in Rogue even).
I also love how accurately you described your thoughts on Chronicles, and I couldn’t agree more. I don’t know what happened after China, but India and Russia just felt different (I did like all three though, unlike you). India is probably my least favorite game overall, but stealth in India and Russia is really not that satisfying as it is in China. Given enemy positions and level architecture, India/Russia felt a lot more like a puzzle game and I hate puzzle games. China is a puzzle to a certain degree, but I felt a lot more quality in overall gameplay.
I’m very excited to play Unity, Syndicate and Origins when I buy a new PC, not that I am not excited for Odyssey and Valhalla, but it really bugs me that an AC game doesn’t have proper stealth. I really hope I’ll disagree with you one day when I play these games as that means I enjoyed stealth 😂
Tier list videos like this one suit you and your commentary a lot
Thank you so much for the nice comment! I hope you eventually disagree with me on Valhalla as well, because THAT will mean they have patched it by the time you begin hahaha.
It's quite helpful to hear that this kind of video suits me, I've been hearing that so much after releasing it that I'm really encouraged to make more.
@Leo K [Rogue] that was actually my subtle intention, I would like you to make more tier lists in the future, even if it’s not AC related, I’ll be happy to hear your thoughts :)
Cheers
Okay where is Metal Gear Solid 4? We have Altair with an automatic pistol and it's not on the list smh.
True! SSS beside Ghost of Tsushima.
It is, quite simply, entertaining to listen to someone talk about things he is good/experienced at. 45 minutes went by extremely quick.
That's very kind of you, thank you so much. :D
Lol AC3 is definitely a combat game, agreed. It was so exhausting to be stealthy when I could just bulldoze through everyone in half the time
Connor is just a murder-MACHINE, he's great
The first AC games were just like that
Revelations was the first game ever in which I actually enjoyed and actively engaged with stealth gameplay because of the bomb customization. I was barely 12 years old when I played it but it felt so good being able to complete objectives without activating alarms and feeling like an evil genius using my bombs in creative ways
Really glad you had that experience. It's very special.
Now I wanna play as Ezio again, lol
Dooo iiittt
Hey Leo! Just getting around to watching this in full over the last few days. This is such a great video, the way you clearly explain your views and go into minute detail about each game is great. This video gives a sense of being absolutely soaked in knowledge and it's so clear from hearing you speak how much of a pro you are. One of my favourite videos from you and I learned a ton of nuance between the games I didn't know existed. Watching this was the best part of my last few days! Keep up the good work and looking forward to watching more Leo K : )
I've played most of the older AC games, but after spending too much time yelling at my TV while playing Valhalla, I had to search and see if I was the only one who hated the stealth in this game. I love stealth but I get so frustrated with it in this game. Like you said, you get spotted immediately and so inconsistently it'll drive you crazy. Here's hoping they fix it, but probably not.
I like to see revelations rated so highly, I don't think it gets enough attention in comparison to ac ii and brotherhood
Yeah, it's got a lot of good stuff.
its funny i always loved revalations (in part because it was my first ac game) and i feel like its overshadowed by the other games to the point where its almost ignored, also the bombs and crafting them were really cool, i always loved messing around with the different types. Also ive never understood why that was the only game (to my knowledge) where you could actually THROW your bombs instead of dropping them at your feet, like its always baffled me why they didnt bring that back until unity
@@Yuri-fq9bi you can actually throw bombs in ac3 and rogue. In ac3 lock on to the enemy and wait till the cross hair glows, in rogue its explained in the story. Hope this helps you in your next playthrough :)
Unity's placement is a direct result of Valhalla, isn't it?
Completely.
I completely agree with your tier list. Especially on AC3. Even though I love the story, experincing Connor’s/Ratonhnhaké:ton’s story, I hated the stealth missions. Especially Conlict Looms. It was near impossible to NOT get detected. Especially the “air assassinate a grenadier” objective. That was the bane of my existence. Just one stealth mission along the others that I hate.
That mission and Full Sync condition is everyone's favorite~ >:)
@@LeoKRogue love unity but sometimes when I’m playing the parkour makes me think Arno grew wings and flew from chimney to chimney
Another amazing video! You are a gem in RUclips, so glad I know this channel. We would love to see more contente like this!
Thanks! It seems people are really loving this, so I'll make a few more.
I honestly love this type of content from you. Great vid Leo.
Thanks Magnum ^__^
Great tier placements. It is very unforunate the last 2 AC games is at the bottom of the stealth ranking.
Isn't it? Games usually try to improve over time but Cyberpunk 2077 and Ghost of Tsushima easily out-class Odyssey and Valhalla in terms of fluid, pleasant stealth gameplay. So sad.
Ngl sometimes when I'm watching leo I rlly like his voice its so calming and chilling
Thank you!
Leo: talking about the AC games as a whole
RUclips: so you mean only AC brotherhood?
It's trying its best.
@@LeoKRogue the best dosen't mean good Leo...
Imagine playing Valhalla with Odin Sight that is bugged to not highlight enemy AI. Couldn't be me. The fact that this handicap doesn't actually feel like it alters the stealth dynamic for me is a testament to how broken it is at baseline. Great video, Leo!
Thanks. :D
I've had that bug a few times.
Valhalla stealth is atrocious, I don’t think I have been able to do something stealthy more than once or twice and it’s very frustrating
Yeah, it really upsets me.
I don't even know how they managed to get that done.
All you had to do was use the perfectly serviceable cover, detection-rules, and enemy-states from Origins and Odyssey, and it would've been fine. But nope. Even if it would've taken more work to do so, it would have been worth it because a chunk of the playerbase wouldn't be imploding right now.
Various nerdy rants incoming:
While I'd agree about AC1 in general, Jcers somehow found a way to make it look expressive and dynamic. That probably says more about the player than the game, but it's worth noting the potential is almost always there
The recruits in Brotherhood and Revelations were the biggest improvement for me. When used alongside tool combos, they allowed you to get something like seven kills at a time with proper planning. It's been eight years since this feature was in the series. Think about that
Revelations added such a huge number of tools, they would be difficult to count. It asked you to craft your own, so if all you used were smoke and firecrackers, then you probably didn't get the most out of the sandbox. It's easy to fall back on the same three you're familiar with because of the restrictions of your inventory, but once you learn to get creative, you can set traps, manipulate civilians, and remove entire groups without laying a finger on them. In fact, I should revisit this one with late-game crafting and see if I can freak some guards out with weird bomb combos
AC3 introduced the breakneck pace and momentum by completely reworking the way your characters handle to smoothly chain from one kill to the next. In classic AC games, it doesn't matter how well you know your toolbelt; if one guard walks around the corner just as you plunge your blade into another, you'll never get to that gadget in time to avoid cascading detections. This was destructive for improv, and AC3 fixed it. We wouldn't value pace as much as we do today if it weren't for AC3 showing us how awesome it is. It was also here that crowds made the transition from static to dynamic, although they were unfortunately underutilized in the level design, and it added a lot of new assassination methods from various positions that either weren't possible before or didn't exist, including the rope tool moves
Liberation has an entirely new playstyle available with The Lady outfit designed for ghost. Bribe your way through gates, pull guards around to use as mobile hiding spots, and completely remove your target from the mission area. There's nothing else in the series like it. The enemies also actually *try* to kill you in combat, so the alternative is somewhat challenging this time around. I liked this one so much I wrote a full-length review on Reddit. Liberation is my game💞
Black Flag's level design takes all the most obnoxious tropes of the series and dials them up to 11. Almost every stealth mission desyncs if you get spotted for even one frame. Eavesdrop targets are always on the move, in restricted areas with no blend opportunities, and desync if you reach yellow SSI three times. Tails are extremely plentiful for a pirate game and desync if you turn the camera more than 30 degrees away from the target for longer than ten seconds, regardless of visual obstructions. And if you thought normal tailing missions were bad, I present *naval tailing missions,* which cannot be completed without a minimap! It's also in a really poor technical state to this day, with easily replicatable bugs that completely break critical gameplay features. I can't make it through this game anymore
According to Jcers, enemies in Rogue have rather obnoxious and inconsistent x-ray vision for dead bodies. This makes trying to kill everyone require a lot of memorizing the location of every hiding spot, but I guess if you're a ghost player it's not a big deal
It's rather ironic how few games have ended up in the "fun but janky" category so far given how well that describes the series as a whole. I usually tend to gravitate away from tier lists because of the way they oversimplify things. There are so many things that go into stealth in Assassin's Creed: Movement, tools, detection mechanics, level design, technical consistency. Some of these are quite difficult to rate because different parts of them would end up on opposite ends of the spectrum, like with Unity's persistent bugs and legendary toolset. At least you know how to talk about this stuff without thinking too hard about the numbers
Can you get through the last two Chronicles games without glitch? Regardless if you have to kill guards, I just found that feature so vapid
(!)
MASSIVE COMMENT, WOAH!
@@LeoKRogue The issue with Black Flag is that it takes away your options. Assassin's Creed isn't *exclusively* a stealth series. In fact, I think the Kenway saga has some pretty exceptional combat, so sometimes I'll allow myself to get into a potentially challenging fight to see how badass I can make it look. But the level design in this game forces you into such narrow tactics that invalidate many playstyles, including but not limited to "reckless pirate with too many spy gadgets," which I consider the most authentic way to play Edward. Just because I can sneak all the levels doesn't mean I should have to, especially with so many restrictions to what type of stealth I use
Could you at some point make an ac tier list just giving your opinion on the game's story and gameplay? It would be cool to know your ranking on games that you don't talk about much like AC3 or Syndicate
It's definitely something I've considered! At least Present Day stuff would be cool.
happy birthday, Leo! :D
thank you for pretty much singlehandedly revitalising ac for me some years ago, they were good games of my earlier years but after I stumbled in here, I realised how much more they can be. I've been keeping at least 2 ac games installed - one of which will always be ac1 - ever since. thank you for the hours upon hours of quality entertainment, both from your channel content and from my gameplay while applying your teachings.
credit to lang for doxxing your birthday and all credit to you for having that chap start a channel (so I guess, thanks for even more quality entertainment lol)
hope you and yours are doing well and staying healthy! all the best from italy, my dude!
Thanks so much Oy Blech! You're a wonderful person and I'm glad my creations have added some value to your gaming life. :)
@@LeoKRogue aww thanks, man :D
oh damn me, they have ^^
btw, since youtube is utterly broken at the moment and you and the boys are utterly and terribly undersubscribed, I thought you might aswell put out some of those broken community posts? expand your reach and whatnot
just a thought, grab the opportunity before yt fixes it :P
Hot damn, I don’t think I truly appreciated Origins’ stealth as much as I do now without watching this video and then going back and replaying it. It just has such a flow and fun sense of creativity to it despite no social stealth. I really hope they fix Valhalla cause it has so potential being squandered. I know this is late but great video man.
Thank you so much Jude. :)
I _really_ hope they give Valhalla the attention it deserves, yeah.
The game really does have so much potential, it hurts to see it like this.
Leo talking about Stealth for 48 minutes? Yes please.
>:D
The reason i went full stealth in Odyssey was to bypass the awfull combat
Yup.
im so glad u put AC Unity in the actual S tier. Unity is my favourite game from the entire AC series and it is really nice to see that i'm not the only one that appreciate stealth in this game
Thanks! While some of it is a matter of taste, I do think that based on what the game gives the player, stealth is typically stronger in Unity than most of the rest of the series, so I put it where it needs to be based on that.
I just finished Assassin's creed unity again, the stealth potential is there; but the jankyness of parkour and the delay in the movement system is very frustrating. I couldn't get in the flow I usually could be in like The older AC's or origins.
I get that. Movement underpins everything so the ever-present clunk just affects the entire experience.
@@LeoKRogue Now the question how could they go back to their roots in the next game? More tools? Level design? Skill based parkour? What makes a definitive AC stealth experience?
ABOUT TIME SOMEONE FINALLY DID A RANKING ON STEALTH!!!
:)
I have completely given up on trying to play valhalla stealthily. I will pop a vein and have a brain stroke if I ever try again, I’m even getting angry just listening to leo talking about valhalla stealth
It's just heartbreaking, I can't believe it.
You serious? Like 90% of ACV can be taken on at a wildly low level as long as you use stealth and it's really forgiving. Stealth is the most effective of the play styles.
Great video. Stealth is the pillar in AC that i am the least well versed in, i am more of a parkour/combat guy, but i always try to go for stealth. And its really fun when it works out.
Also hard agree on your Valhalla ranking. Stealth is so fucked in that game. From instant detection across the map and through objects to inconistent guard reactions, and essentially no way to actually get better at it e.g. no skills regarding detection speed, footstep sounds etc., only stealth damage, which is really limiting. So i always end up headshoting everyone or just solving it in combat because its faster, easier and not completely random wether i succed or not. Stealth is already kind of a gimmick in the Valhalla because of how easy it is, so when the player limits itself and plays unefficient in order to live a fantasy then it should at least work.
This type of video would work well for the other 2 pillars, would it not ? :)
Thanks! Stealth is probably the least controversial topic because everyone can kind of see what makes it good or bad, Combat and Movement are much, much more controversial and fiery because people want different things from them. As an example, if I were to say Unity has the worst Combat in the series and the second-worst Parkour in the series, people would probably be furious -- but it's true.
@@LeoKRogue Haha yea, i would actually agree with that concrete example. And the discsussions on the main subreddit about which parkour and combat is the best will probably never end. I think doing a tierlist for combat and parkour could be a good reference for other people that don't want to explain the same stuff over and over again. If you would change of the categorie names a little bit in order to accomodate for the subjective nature of the ranking e.g. rate parkour under the premise of freedom of movement, player agency and amout of hand-holding. That way it would be easier for people to better understand why you rank somethng the way you do.
I find that people often disagree with each other because they fail to realizie that they are looking for completely different things.
Of course this is completely up to you but i would really enjoy having a video to refer to whenever i want to explain to someone why i like a certain kind of system. Just my 2 cents. I actually thought about doing something like this myself but i haven't really done any videos so i was afraid of not reachign a certain quality standard. But considering how often i talk about stuff like this anyway it doesn't seem to be a bad idea.
Sounds like it could be worth doing. I'll look into it.
@@LeoKRogue Awesome, that's all i can ask for !
Love this type of content, Leo :)
Thank you. It's very different from what I usually do.
@@LeoKRogue Hearing you give your in-depth 2 cents on every game was very enjoyable.
Interesting tier list. I will watch the full video, as I played all games besides chronicles and from Origins to Valhalla and never played the dlcs to Ac and Ac BF. I agree with you Leo.
I hope you find it informative and entertaining. :)
cant say i disagree at all tbh
Appreciate the support man ^___^
Thank you for blessing us with so much content today, Leo :)
You're very welcome, thank you for watching.
Yo I couldn't agree more with ac valhallas placement, the detection system feels so random its like the game rolls a dice to see if a guard will detect me or if they will be oblivious to my presence.
And the enemy placement in the bigger forts and outposts are so horrendous. I will attempt to full stealth a fort or try to get footage and then i come to an area where 4 guards are blocking each others lines of sight and i cant do anything about it so I end up just scraping the run because I hate the rpg styled combat with a passion.
This is a great description of the general experience I, and many other players, have been having.
Thank you for your addition, the more people we can get to speak up about their experiences, the better the chance this game moves in a healthier direction over time.
"The Cherry bombs were a ranged distraction that the series never had before. Well besides revelations."
*Cries in firecracker dart.*
Rogue came out the same year, and I forgot, okay?! >_
@@LeoKRogue *also cries in freedom cry firework*
*Screams in picking up corpse and throwing it to lure guards*
@LeoK[Rogue] I didn’t preorder AC Valhalla bc of this and I ultimately got Ghost of Tsushima instead. Long story short I have platinum Ghost and wanted to know is it worth buying Valhalla now and if so which version would you feel is worth getting thanks and happy hunting
Thank you for playing Ghost of Tsushima! My favorite game of 2020, easily.
As for whether it's worth buying Valhalla now, I would say, keep waiting. There are still *a lot* of bugs, and new bugs are being created with every new patch. When the game is stabilized and mostly-fixed, I will upload an Update video about it.
@@LeoKRogue Same I love Ghost. Speaking of uploading would you consider uploading your play through of Ghost of Tsushima bc I don’t have twitch and I would love to see more of how you played. Thanks for responding because like you I’ve been with AC for such a long time and have been really dissatisfied with these last AC rpg type games. Again I appreciate the response and am gladly awaiting your update video if it ever comes. Keep up the good work and thanks again.
Do you think Ubisoft are noticing the amount of love for the old games recently? If you go on the AC subreddit, a very significant amount of the posts are about the old games and how great they were. For a while, people who like the RPGs seemed to be the majority, but now it seems to be around half and half. Maybe new fans have been playing the old games.
I'm sure they notice, but unless something gets an explosion of upvotes numbering in the thousands, online voices are a minority.
What I dont like about Unity is that it feels very clunky to control Arno. Its actually very frustrating. I feel like Syndicate partially fixed this issue, even though its the same engine, it doesnt feel as clunky as Unity
Agreed. It's utterly brutal and people who say it's 'perfect after patches' are full of it LMAO. Unity has to be one of the clunkiest games in the series, and no amount of training or practice can 100% compensate for it.
Valhalla was my first AC game and if not for the fact I had a copy of unity that was laying around for idk 6 years that I never played, it would definitely be my last AC game LOL
after playing unity I don't even want to go back to Valhalla
You're in good company, then. :P
The first DLC for Valhalla is coming soon and I'm dreading what kind of weird-ass design it might have.
I'll still play it so I can let people know what's up, but yeah.
@@LeoKRogue until I can complete the world events not even gonna download DLC for Valhalla lmao on a 2nd play through it worked, still would like to complete my initial game and not have to play it all over again you know, game is so grindy but yeah there is no stealth playing at all, when it does work I laugh xD
pls do this for movement and parkour
Will do!
That was fast!
Great breakdown, exactly what I want to see when I search for a tier list. Trying to find a list like this on general gaming sites is plain impossible: they either read like blurbs borrowed from Wikipedia or they focus on discussing the story, barely mentioning the game mechanics.
This one gets straight to the point.
Valhalla's wounds are still fresh, huh? Sucks to hear about it. From the previews I read it seemed that Ubisoft wanted to return to how earlier games handled stealth, after more RPG-heavy approach of previous two entries. Guess it didn't worked out for other reasons. And shame about 2&3rd Chronicles. First one was a very unexpected surprise. Do you know if the team responsible for it moved on to other Ubi's projects or did they try to make something similar without the AC brand?
You convinced me to check out Unity -- I've seen plenty of memes making fun of it, but it seems like there was a good game hiding underneath the bugs. Still looks amazing too, after 6 years.
Thank you so, so much!
If you do check out the game, I hope you enjoy it, and definitely feel free to ask questions since like the rest of this series, its positives all come with major caveats.
Climax Studios seem to mostly do Ports of games, which is a shame. I think they have some real talent.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Climax_games
Really disappointing to hear that about Valhalla, was really excited for it. Hopefully by the time I get around to playing it they'll have fixed it up a bit. I'm not playing it till I've finished my series playthrough😁
There's always a chance they patch and fix it, yeah. :)
The fact that I have to download a trainer to make hidden blade assassination a 1-hit kill means origin is on par with odysseys in terms of stealth.
Eh. The stat calculations are different enough to the point where the only guards who I didn't one-hit with Blade in ACO were Juggernauts (the big dudes in Forts) and specific bosses. Also, the level design in Origins is better than the level design in Odyssey, not to mention it has sleep darts and permits ghosting more often. Non-damage related stealth systems and traits are stronger in Origins. By that virtue alone, it's better than Odyssey, full stop.
That said, yes, statted stealth is awful.
@@LeoKRogue It's not just the juggernauts. But every enemy with a red skull on their health bar. I remember in the beginning of the game in Siwa there's a treasure chest guarded by lvl 20 guard and I was level 7, and I can't stealth kill them, so I download a trainer, turn on 1-hit kill and say "fuck you ubisoft" everytime I kill a guard.
There are numerous thing that pissed me off too, like instant detection, fucking slow motion, essential skills locked behind levelling system,... You even have to unlock a skill to be able to switch gear on the fly.
But yeah level design is really good.
Make some more tierlist videos!
You think so?
@@LeoKRogue of course, always great to hear input from highly skilled players
The closest thing to a smoke bomb in _Valhalla_ is that one predator bow that makes a sleep cloud on headshot. And even that's kinda iffy because of the range of the cloud is miniscule.
Yeah! Especially since, as Assassiiinuss recently revealed, Sleep Clouds now have a chance to just, not work anymore.
It's awful.
AC Origins is the closest the series felt like MGS V. Shame it didn't reach it, and probably never will.
AC Syndicate is terrible. If I had a dollar for each time I did a front attack instead of front assassinate I'd be a millionaire.
Spot on list all 'n all! Thanks
Thanks for watching. :D
Syndicate is under rated.
@@aZeddPrattFilm to each their own
To be completely honest, I didn't expect Valhalla to end up as low as it did, but then again, I've not touched the game since I completed it a few weeks after launch. I didn't particularly love my time with it, and I remember getting really annoyed around the halfway point with how sterile the world felt to explore. Almost like a Witcher 3 lack of depth in general exploration with a half-assed stealth mechanic.
But I thought this was due to me being a grumpy oldhead about the series. Sorry the game hasn't been able to keep your attention outside of the first run through the story, Leo. I lurked in stream for a bit and read the community posts about you enjoying the game, and in a way it allowed me to push through in my own playthrough. Hopefully Ubisoft doesn't completely cock up Massive's Star Wars project with their tendency to wash games of their charm and fun.
I always try to take each game on its own merits, even as some level of comparison to what came before is inevitable. And, yes, even when looked at standing on its own, Valhalla does so many things as a videogame that bother me. I'm glad you actually managed to finish it close to release, that's probably when it was at its best in terms of the freedom it gave you to just play it how you want. It still wasn't incredible, but it hadn't yet nerfed or removed all the useful stuff that currently no longer (or barely) exists.
everything you said in this video was 100% valid, and while I do agree that a mana system is a major L for an assassin's creed game with any stealth options at all, I think ubisoft was kinda just like let's keep making combat games and I was already locked into that when starting ORIGINS, not to mention odyssey and valhalla. atp it never made sense why they were still in the assassin's creed franchise, but I played them as combat games and somewhat just took myself out of the sneak around, use tools mindset, and somewhat enjoyed them (despite their other atrocities like the dime a dozen side quests and horrendous storylines). they were just, games with nice big open worlds that I could run around in and nothing more. thankfully ac mirage brought it back and it's the best game in the series since unity lol
I'm down for them doing anything, just wish if that was truly the intent they'd stop marketing stealth as being this cool viable valid thing for so many games in a row until eventually they cracked and relented and released Mirage, where they actually made a stealth game and wow, were honest in marketing that Basim is not a fighter. It's just interesting how they're fine communicating the truth of a game one way but not the other way, y'know?
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed those games alright for what they were, but this is a stealth tier list and not a "how good is this game" tier list so of course I had to discuss that.
@@LeoKRogue yeah I fully agree. just gotta hope now what Bordeaux did will be for the better, but the whole "infinity" thing gives me doubts
SELL OUT.
But tbh, I really think I agree with all the rankings that you've chosen. This seems really well thought out. I know these videos get old fast when overdone, but we've never really seen a tierlist come from a content creator like you. I think it would be particularly interesting to see how you would rank all major stealth games. So Ghost of Tsushima, Shadow of War, Uncharted 4, Assassin's Creed, Watch Dogs, Tomb Raider, Far Cry 5, etc. I think that would make for a good video.
Batman: Arkham Knight 😃
Yeah, I don't generally enjoy making vids like this, but I made an exception for this one because it's important right now.
Yeah.
Gamers: We want to be Assassins with a hood and a hidden blade, blending into crowds and fighting against the Templars!
Ubisoft: 30:23
I'm interested in a ranking of all the Ac games now. That would be a pretty good video to watch. This one is pretty interesting too.
That'd be quite tough and it would be even more subjective than this one. :P
This is very informative. I'll be sure to come back to this video once I reach the Assassin's Creed section of my backlog in seven years.
Happy to help xD
Meanwhile, I bought DooM 2016 and Eternal recently.
I don't know when I'll play them because there's a heckton of games coming over the next ten days;
Sep 10 | Tales of Arise
Sep 14 | Deathloop
Sep 17 | Aragami 2 [!!!]
I was with you aaaaaall the way to the end. But only til the end. I really love Valhalla’s stealth system and i love you Leo I really do but I just don’t agree with you. Though brotherhood and unity are both sooo fun man I really love watching your videos
If you don't agree with me, that means you don't experience the same bugs most players do. I'm happy for you! Let's pray Ubi doesn't patch the game in a way that breaks it for _you_ too xD
Can we just agree that Abilities are faaaar worse than actual Tools?
And Adrenaline sucks too
Agreed. They're just... So limiting.
Oh hell yes, what better way to procrastinate. I'm 90 hours into Valhalla and I didn't find the book of knowledge about sleep arrows. Got the sexy assassin outfit, but the game is basically diablo to me at this point :)
That's probably the best way to play it, to be honest xD
I agree with most of what you said and how you ranked the games in terms of stealth. Haven't played Valhalla and the Chronicle games though, seems like I need to play Chronicles China someday. So can't really agree with you on that because I have no opinion on these games.
The only thing I would personally rank differently, is Unity. I'd put it in like A or maybe B because it's a little bit too clunky for me to put it in S, but I can also understand that you are quite forgiving. I didn't play Unity nearly as much as you and my understanding of the stealth in Unity is probably not as deep as yours, so that could also be a factor.
Nevertheless, great video and you are giving very good inputs.
Unity's clunk would put it in A or B, a year ago.
Valhalla is just _SO_ bad that it elevates Unity by comparison.
This is so wholesome that I'm probably going to threat it as a Bob Ross video.
Watching it again when I want to brighten up my day 😁
Hahahaha, I wouldn't call it wholesome, I get pretty angry in my assessment of Valhalla and I'm getting a non-insignificant amount of people disagreeing, some of whom straight-up called it a "shit list." Fuck 'em though. I'm glad you liked it :D
I wanted to leave this comment when the video was released, but I remembered only now. I like stealth in AC Vallhala more than Unity. The reason is that there are gunners in Unity. Their AI is so broken that they break stealth almost everywhere they are. In Vallhala, the only problem is the instantaneous filling of the detection bar. I don't see this as a big problem, as time slows down upon detection and sleep arrows work just like berserker darts.
I can deal with gunners easy-peasy, if they can see you, you can shoot them with a Firearm, always, and rarely be detected.
Valhalla has Archers, which are like gunners with longer sight ranges and wallhacks.
The choice is pretty simple for me. Mind you, if my game (and the game of dozens of others) weren't horribly bugged, and if Ubisoft would actually addressed the overtuned detection-rates, Valhalla would be an amazing game.
At launch, it was _hard_ but it _WORKED._ and enemies didn't see you when they weren't supposed to. (Through objects/hiding places etc) I would kill to come back to that state of the game.
Hey Leo, after seeing your review on ac vallhalla, i decided against buying it. But do you have any stealth games you would recommend besides dishonored,thief,splinter cell,mgs and the other big names?
Mark of the Ninja, A Plague Tale: Innocence has some stealth in it that I enjoyed, if you have a really strong computer, Cyberpunk 2077 is a good stealth game, Wildfire is fun but hard.
Ayee a new tier list,dope
Yay
LeoK: Stealth can't possibly get any any worse in the AC franchise than in Odyssey
AC Valhalla: Allow me to introduce myself.
Literally, though! Ugh.
Stealth talk aside. We know we really love to read/hear these three words: Detection is allowed.
If only because it makes some janky stealth mechanics less punishing than they otherwise would be, yeah.
a long video of leo talking about assassins creed 💕
People keep saying that! :P
Congratulations on 15k subs
Thank you!
Would love to see some pacifist black flag missions! Love the stealth from that game, esp since I started it right after 100% on ac3.
I have some old videos of that from way back in the day, if I play it again sometime I'll make some more.
I started playing Mark of the Ninja today for the first time, blind playthrough, and it’s literally AC Chronicles but better.
Thanks for recommending it, the gameplay in that game is buttery-smooth
It's amazing, yeah! Very replayable too, you just get better and better.
What about Metal Gear Creed Peace walker? It expands on the formula because you can now MOVE with the haystack. That alone's got to be S tier.
truuueee!!11one!!11
You had firecracker darts in rogue, basically the cherry bombs
True! They released the same year, so I neglected to mention.
I know a lot of people will disagree with me but I personally believe that unity is underrated
Heh. With the _sheer amount_ of people who say "Unity is Underrated" every day, I think that at this point, Unity is rated exactly where it should be. :P