Loose Rocker Switch Cap Injures 50! Latam
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- Опубликовано: 14 мар 2024
- LINKS: Loose Switch Confirmed!
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Malfunctioning Seat: • March 15, 2024
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Наука
Runaway seat proceedures.
Left seat, cleared for take-off.
I can't even😂😂😂😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣
To be fixed with a new Moving Chair & Armrest System software update.
More "Memory" block items to digest...
i want to hear that CVR...
"oh thanks for the coffee, Jenny...HEY, WTF??!"
Its probobly more like.
"Gracias por el café María"
*high pitch screaming*
...
*actual dog whistle*
It was more like “fuck, tell em the screens went black” They probably tried that excuse for the cvr. One problem, the data recorder is gonna show the yoke being smashed forward😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😬🫣
Just how far forward is the seat allowed to travel?
@@PlutogalaxyStrange comment.
@@joemueller4738bad design
Just a reminder, always keep your seat-belt fastened even in cruise flight for 14+ hours. You just never know when an inadvertent uncoordinated condition could happen. And this goes to a win for Boeing since nothing was left loose enough to fall off.
At takeoff and landing I always have it tight and during cruise have it loose. When I walk around I keep my hands above or hold the seat backs.
@@PalladianPD One hand on seat backs one overhead "to hold the baggage bins". You never know which direction turbulance will throw you.
Or a false door could fall off and you get sucked out!
Thanks Mom.
I have seen firsthand what happens when a plane drops violently and you don't have your seatbelt on, luckily I had mine on but the guy two seats next to me did not and he flew up and hit his head on the ceiling and when he landed on the armrest instead of in his seat I bet it did not feel well, and I was in the very back of the airplane also
Even as a commercial truck driver, I can attest to how disruptive a loose seat may be.
In the event of a heavy truck, we have a bar similiar to a 172. Lift to disengage and adjust the seat. If it doesn't lock, it will roll freely on it's rails. Typically, it only presents a problem during braking or deptessing the clutch. In certain situations, each scenario can be surprising, and turn a routine situation into an immediate emergency. A loose seat is not a small issue.
There is a Red master switch on the seat that removes all power from the seat, always been there, however not mentioned much in training. It is located abeam and forward of the Inertial Harness reel lock control on the inboard side of the seat.
@markwood9755 : 2 questions: 1. does the seat move freely without said power? 2. how does it stay in place?
The seats can be moved manually with the use of some levers, in much the same way as you might in a car without electric seats. @@Palmit_
No it doesn't move freely, it is locked in place but it has manual operation just like any other current Boeing pilot seats. So normally you can use either electric or manual movement.
@@richardnelson1234 thx replying. some conflict in my thinking.. the motor will be engaged into the rails..and seat, so low torque motor so ease of non electrical movement to shift weight of a human? how does that work.. how do the two systems combine in regard to engage/disengage? i am sorry if my question is like spaghetti.
@@evpilot89 thx replying :)
Did you notice further down the WSJ article that you showed... It said this was a known issue and there was a related service notice in 2017. 2017!!!
So whose problem is that? Boeing? No. The airline? To some extent yes. But .. FAA? Entirely.FAA's job is to do oversight and insure safety THEY DON'T DO IT. Period.
@@paulgooding803 BRO....
I didn't know the Faa's job was to "do oversight and insure safety" in the COUNTRY OF CHILE.
"The airline?" Entirely.
When the manufacturer puts out a service bulletin it is at the operators discretion to comply. In the USA, if the faa deems a service bulletin as mandatory, then it becomes an airworthiness directive. Though most USA operators voluntarily comply with service bulletins.
Countries with lax aviation rules and regulations tend to do the bare minimum.
"Boeing?" I prefer to live, so i decline to comment.
My comment is in the context of (a) the airplane maker and (b) the regulatory oversight of that airplane maker in response to some other comment about Boeing. In that structure, my comment is on point. If there is an overlap or discontinuity of the logical thread then I might have missed it, or, I might not care beause ....@@MrDavidfuchser
gratuitous Boeing bashing has ruined the aviation channels here (and elsewhere) and turned the good information source into a sh*tpile and it is not helpful. So your complaint is probably also accurate in the ontext you describe however, the context threads in these posts is all over the map and it's easy to get lost.
Just another reason why aviation channels on YT are now a dung heap of BS, conspiracy theory, and misapplied blame.
Enjoy
Jesus! When you suggested it was this switch in your last video, I really didn't believe it! I stand corrected, thanks for an awesome update!
I remember we used to have a gag runaway captain’s seat procedure in the 747. This actual incident is mind blowing.
I'd love to hear the procedure.
Its amazing how the story of everything turning off for a moment in the cockpit spread like wildfire.
Getting your seat thrust forward, pushing you into the control stick, isnt exactly a minor detail you would forget as a pilot after a major incident
Yes. It was so obviously untrue, thou. But news shows spread it like COVID.
But it didn't "thrust forward". It creeps forward.
There might have been a tray being pushed around with liquids spilling over
Covered in Juan's video! The autopilot forced disconnection is what would cause the plane to lunge nose down, not the seat moving forward. The seat is what pushed the pilot onto his controls hard enough to disengage autopilot and that could be gradual.
Don't forget that the "everything went blank" story comes from a journalist writing that a passenger said that the pilot told him...
Chilean here. When the person says "se mueve solo el asiento" (the seat moves on its own) it does sound like Chilean Spanish, but I can't be 100% sure, so it may be the accident aircraft.
Como se llama “mosquito” en Chile?
Agreed in part, as it didn't sound like Caribbean Spanish, it could be Chilean.
.... from a Puerto Rican, with vastly inferior Spanish to any Chilean :)
Si. Acento chileno. Chilean accent 100%
@@chizzo777 "zancudo"
@@chizzo777zancudo
We can only imagine that meal that was served to the pilot was eaten by the Boeing 787 pilots ceiling circuit breaker switches. Lets pray the flight attendant as recovered fully
No CB’s in the cockpit of the 787. I know what you mean though.😉
The 787 has a very clean and very modern cockpit. You won't find a single circuit breaker switch in the entire cockpit. They are all digital circuit breakers that are accessed and searchable from the centre display. As a result, the ceiling and the walls are very smooth, clean, and hazard free. You really can't smash your head against anything dangerous.
@@TheTurbinator Digital circuit breakers?
@@ryanlittleton5615 circuits to be broken by AI!
@@peterebel7899 😱
Given that the whole point of the switch cover is to prevent the switch being accidentally pressed, this represents a serious quality issue.
That's Boeing.
@@smacktard6051 I was trying to figure out a reasonable solution, and I like your solution. it would probably do it.
could have one switch cut off the other switch so if both are pressed it becomes inert.
They really do need to replace these. It is offensive that they are talking about updating the manual when they have a severe design flaw that could probably be fixed for under 100bucks a plane.
That's Boeing!
@@smacktard6051 I'm not a rocker switch expert [who is?] but I believe each end of the rocker actually pushes down on exactly what you describe. Temporarily you could just remove the rocker and operate the seat w/ the buttons. But if the seats have their own controls why even have this feature?
Also, are the yokes on the 787 linked? If not, couldn't the FO just have pulled back on his? "My airplane!"
@@bldn10 787 is a fly-by-wire plane, so they don't directly move the flight surfaces. They are weakly linked mechanically, but are also moved by the flight control computer to give feedback to the pilots. There could be an "ignore input when seat is moving" logic built into the system... but the mechanical linkage sorta complicates it.
I had a Tesla Model S. This model (can't speak to others, but I would assume they also do) has a "feature" to ease exit, moving the driver's seat all the way back when you tap an icon on the main (center) display. That "feature" can be engaged while the vehicle is moving, as I accidentally discovered once, and it can't be stopped manually.
Same engineer who designed that POS apparently works for Boing-Boing now.
I'd say the issue started buying a Tesla in the first place, but back when the S came out, Elon's total disregard of decent engineering (and decency in general) wasn't so public yet.
By the way, the story on a billionaire recently drowned in a Model X comes to mind.
Oh boy. Sounds like an era .
Flight simulator -rocker seat activation during flight-new accident scenerio.
With an Elon attitude! Possibly
@@mipmipmipmipmipabout bottom line. Wicked money.
My Huyndai do something simular. but it really don´t work for me becasue i´m so tall i have the seet pretty mcuh all the way back anyway. If i happen to jump into the car with my wifes key, then i´m sqished into the stearing wheel
"Everything that can go wrong will eventually go wrong" seems fitting to Boeing these days.
Airbus never kills.
Murphy was here.
@@AlbertHess-xy7ky That is not historically accurate, just not recently.
@@AlbertHess-xy7ky
Never say never.
Murphy's Law has been turbocharged for Boeing.
I once had the opportunity to fly in a Latam 787 from Santiago (Chile) to Punta Arenas for Christmas. A couple of weeks earlier, a military C-130 Hercules had crashed on its way to Antarctica, making big news in Chile, so the mood of the boarding passengers was still a bit jumpy. I paid a bit extra to sit in the 5th row window seat, just ahead of the main door (to my surprise, it was a first-class-like seat, by pure luck! because I didn't expect that for the little extra money I put). Anyway, the door was closed, and it seemed the plane was ready to taxi, but nothing happened for a while. Then the captain announced they had an issue in the cockpit, and they were calling the airline technicians in to fix it before departure. People went increasingly uneasy. The door opened and the technicians went into the cockpit. When they were done, I heard them vaguely informing the cabin crew that they had changed a switch before leaving the plane. The door was closed, and the steward announced we were departing now but was faced with agitated demands from some passengers that wanted to bail off the plane and get a refund or a plane swap. He patiently explained they had the right to get off the plane, but they would not be refunded or rebooked, because the plane was good to go. The door was opened again, and some scared passengers left the plane before we departed for good.
I admit I was slightly anxious too, given the recent tragedy, but the seat was so comfy. So, I said to myself: "Don't worry, It's just a SWITCH in the cockpit"
Hmm, Was it the switch that would eject your 'comfy' seat? Though I know that feeling and why you would stay.
It was probably the No Smoking sign switch.
So many switches on a flight deck. Maybe it was the fuel on/off switch or the 'make engine go now' switch.
@@Don.Challenger If I'm dying, I'm going with style, in a comfy first class seat
This is an eight-year old aircraft that has been through at least two C-checks. Boeing issued a memo to remind 787 operators to "inspect and maintain" seat switches. Which is to me a clear warning that the switch covers have a potential to be damaged. You see in the video the lid falls onto the fingers of the person operating the switch. With the seat moving there is a risk of overstressing or breaking the lid's hinges especially if the person has their mind or their eyes on something else.
Notified in 2017 of a problem from a loose switch and that it could potentially cause lose of control in certain circumstance. It takes Boeing over six years and still there are badly designed switches installed. How much does it cost to send out a retrofit to each of their customers to be fitted on next service. Boeing you just don't learn.
FAA should do its job...oh and should be run by independent investigators with the power to levy fines, enforce standards.
…you see….um…it’s all about money…you know….management profits…bonuses…shareholders, etc. You just can’t rush these things. They take time, lots of time to schedule into the cash flow so it doesn’t upset people who matter.
@@scottlewisparsons9551
Totally right. Unless the FAA drops the hammer this crap will never stop.
If FAA let a manufacture slide on fixing a known problem for six years it is now on the government agency, I really dont care who, time to can anyone as an example at the FAA. Better to fire someone over a non fatal item than a fatal item charged with more politics.
So when the passengers sue for damages, is the company that made the food tray and the spork listed in the legal claim?
Why bother when you have the WSJ blaming the flight attendant. Everyone is complicit - FAA, Boeing (and their murderous shareholders, apparently), the media.
Once in a while one captain or another mocks me because, even in cruise flights, I still keep the shoulder’s harness. That’s why.
Lap belt really should be sufficent for a mild negative G
Why thank you! As a passenger, I prefer my pilots go that extra mile to ensure that they can still reach (and operate) all of the controls if something unexpected happens.
@chizzo777 Thank you for staying safe. Don’t let anyone guilt you in being unsafe in the air. You have many people counting on you. Stay safe!
Always difficult to operate the Aircraft Properly from the ceiling.
@@matsv201yes but this wasn’t mild g by the sound of things.
Congratulations Juan . I think you correctly called this in your previous video. Give yourself a big pat on the back even though you refrained from mentioning it in this video. I am always impressed by your knowledge and your professionalism.
I heard someone say that once the button was released the seat would stop & it is supposed to, but I have seen it for whatever reason be mashed and then let go and the seat just keeps going till it gets to the end of its tracks, sounds like a little more than a bad switch to me, I mean I know it’s the switch but there must be some kind of fundamental flaw in the design of it because when it took off forward and didn’t stop it had to be mashed in reverse to make it stop and yeah there’s that cutoff button but with all hell breaking loose I’d just like to see how long it would take real trained airline pilots to feel it out and cut it off, the cheapest & safest thing to do would simply just get the FAA to make them go through and physically remove that particular switch, cause it’s got a ton on the side of the seat just like the 777.
I could be 100% wrong but knowing how those switches are usually mounted I would have liked to see what was under the safety cover of the one in the video. The safety door appeared propped up a bit. I would agree, the design should not be a rocker facing upward though. it’s allowed operation should not be in the same direction of the safety door closure. Embed the switch in the back of the seat facing rearward is one better choice with that type of safety door.
Bingo.
Also for goodness sake why isn't the switch a momentary action type? Unless I didn't get the video content, the switch should only operate the seat motor if it is continuously held down!
@@pdutube - It is a momentary action type switch. Watch the video again starting at 0:44 where a person is actuating the switch and holding it down for the entire duration of the seat movement. The contention seems to be that the latch holding the cover down/in place was enough to keep the loosened switch continuously depressed. Or possibly that the switch failure was such that once actuated it would stick in the depressed state.
@@GFlCh Thank you that makes sense. If the flight attendant held the cover down they would probably be aware of their action and remove their hand but if the cover locked in some fashion, holding the switch down, it might have taken all by surprise. I imagine the flight attendant wound up on the cockpit ceiling as a result.
@@pdutube very likely is. Not sure we won’t find out accidental activation is the real cause this particular incident though. Design definitely could be improved upon.
Wow Juan, you were spot on with your previous video! Don't park in any Holiday Inn parking lots!
I hadn't even thought of that. Probably good advice 🙁
Yeah, make sure that hanger door locks properly! Refer to an earlier video.
@@kaptainlumix5772psychotic switch
This is turning into the movie airplane in a hurry. 😂. Was the autopilot a blowup doll trying to fight back at first???😂
Don’t eat the fish!
Are yo a fool?
We've got to get these people to a hospital.
A hospital? What is it?
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now
I just want to tell you both, good luck. We're all counting on you.
As if that's funny?
Such a seemingly innocuous function created such a startling result. Always things to learn ... so always stay vigilant! Great reporting on this one ... thank you Juan!
Juan was likely correct that some gravy spilled on (or in) those uniforms. One does hope the CVR was preserved. There had to be some colorful outbursts during that mishap.
Having the switch on the seat back is a good idea but the switch should automatically become inoperative when the seat is occupied.
Why would you need that switch at all? Shouldn't the seat be in the back position when a pilot leaves?
@@MarcoTedaldiAnd in forward when a pilot wants to place or remove his flight bag at/from the outer side of the seat.
Agreed. Simple solution. Buckled lap belt disengages the switch.
Until the sensor/switch used to disable it malfunctions.
@@TEDodd And? Then two things need to malfunction in order for it to move. The occupancy switch and the switch to move the seat.
Crazy. Reminds me a bit of when an RAF Voyager Tanker/Transport aircraft (which is a military A330) went into a steep dive and threw the service people riding home in the back up into the ceiling. Turned out the Captains DLSR camera (which he used to take some nice photo shots from the cockpit) had got wedged against the side stick and pushed the plane into a steep dive. At least in that instance, it was a third party piece of equipment that caused the issue, and not a piece of the aircraft that had been put there by the actual manufacturer!
Indeed.
Yes, that's right. @MentourPilot made a very informative Video about this accident.
The camera did not put itself into harm's way, the pilot did. The careless pilot caused the issue.
You do the best job explaining accidents as proven in the LATAM incident!
With equal amounts of dedication that you put into each and every video, I thank you! Great reporting.
could you imagine the feeling when you hear those electric motors slowly pushing you forward inexorably into your control column?
Yes its almost like _hey I should get up_ as the seat crawls towards the controls like the steamroller in Austin Powers.
I don't think it does, in other words full forward is where some folks use the seat. Had to be the tray or pilot turned sideways.
I imagine it wasn’t noticed at first or as others have said the tray got jammed etc.
@@NefvilleI had to like your comment for that beautifully comedic scene in Austin Powers, my favourite scene.
You wouldn’t hear it in flight too noisy.
Some manager got a $100k bonus for saving $0.50 per plane building that rocker switch assembly more cheaply
Manager? This isn't Russia - This was done for the shareholders bro.
Some passengers insist on cheap fares.
Yep I'd put my 50 cents on that for sure. Managers especially making decisions with absolutely no operational experience..seen it, until one such decision ammounted to setting up a 1250MW nuclear reactor meltdown...(this was last century by the way).
You made that up.
I knew it, I knew it. Every problem seems to come down to some broad pushing your buttons.
Well done Juan, you called it with your first video on this event - meal time! IMHO, the only modification necessary is to use a micro switch/sensor to disable what I’m going to call the “seat back switch” whenever the seat is occupied. This has been done in the auto industry to prevent inadvertent air-bag deployment in the passenger seat, so it’s not going to take a great deal of effort to do something similar in aircraft.
Great videos with clear explanation. A good source to learn a lot about aviation. Congratulations for your excellent work.
I wish he had lifted the cover for the switch all the way up, so we could see if the switch was loose or out of its mount. There seem to be some big gaps around that switch cover, and it doesn’t look like it is closing as completely as the one being demonstrated in the previous video.
Yes, my immediate thoughts exactly. Let’s see what’s directly below the lower side of the switch cover.
I'm inclined to wonder why the switch even has the ability to move the seat forward at all? Shouldn't forward movement commands only be made by the person sitting in the seat?
were not always in the seat, quite often when stood up behind the seat we need to move it, the switch location is convenient and stops us having to bend over to access the side controls and potentially falling over the flight controls
@@mrsmith4100 Well certainly a risk of killing 280 people is worth it if you don't have to bend over once in a while.
You raise an interesting design challenge. When the seat is _forward,_ a pilot entering the cockpit needs to move it _back_ to be able to get to the seat. Once in the seat he needs to be able to move it _forward_ to reach the controls. Last but not least, when he needs to get up, he needs to be able to move it _back_ to get out of the seat. For two of those three moves, the back of the seat location is not ideal, particularly since it could be triggered by anyone entering the cockpit. I wonder how other aircraft do this.
@@Inkling777I'm going to make a few guesses on why the rear switch has the ability to move the seat forward:
1. The cleaning crew wants to vacuum the rear area of the seat, so they move it forward for better acess to the floor.
2. The technician wants to move the seat forward so he can gets more room to access something like a service hatch.
3. Redundancy is a mantra repeated constantly in aviation engineering to cover emergencies. What if the seat control reachable by the pilot becomes inoperative? Maybe the flight attendant can adjust the seat for the pilot.
@@edthelazyboyBingo
Thanks, Juan. 35 year F/A with EAL and AA, and it's still hard to get pax to keep the seatbelt low and tight. Crazy.
Thanks Juan passengers were very lucky indeed,safe flights mate,👋👏🙏👍🇦🇺
This should be no more than a three position toggle switch with a physical lockout guard. Rocker switches are prone to failure because material can build up under the "rocker", not to mention inadvertent activation.
The 3-position switch could be turned so as to be horizontal and recessed into the seat frame, protecting it from inadvertent activation from above. The switch guard could be designed to also be the cover, eliminating an extra part. A poor design here from the engineering department if we can come up with a better design after a few minutes on You Tube.
Come on, it is just a comfort feature ....
@peterebel7899
Yep. Why is it even there, really? Are there pilots with disabilities now that prevent them using a simpler mechanical lever?
Not being funny... Is there some genuine reason other than laziness?
@@tin2001 Who ever does not understand a seat moving device to be as relevant for a vehicle's safety status as the steering wheel, steering column, pedals, ... is simply in the wrong industry, may it be automotive, may it be avionics.
Boeing seems to be in this category: Please why can such a switch "come loose" so that the user needs advices how to deal with this issue? ?? ???
Think of how many times the seats have to move every day as crews change out. They need to be not prone to wear and be super reliable. Mechanical pins with seat rails have been known to fail, through wear or to not engage properly. It probably was felt that a gear drive that's always engaged would be more reliable and require less maintenance and adjustment. Power driver's seats in cars are a good example of the state of the art and work very well.@@tin2001
Wouldn’t believe it if I hadn’t heard it here! Thanks JB.
I thought the same thing. What a bizarre cause that would be.
So let me get make sure I'm understanding this correctly. The rocker switch comes loose - presumably lifting out of it's mounting hole. This creates a high risk of it being engaged unintentionally. And the officially recommended 'fix' is to 'inspect and maintain the seat switches'. Wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense to improve the design and retrofit new switches and/or mountings. Ah, of course, I'm forgetting - that would cost Boeing money.
A new design to eliminate fasteners that could get loose is a good approach. A new design would imply the old design was bad. Not a good look for management if the focus is on reducing costs. Someone didn't think this through carefully. Why this was approved is beyond me.
Wouldn't really cost Boeing any money; redesign and retrofit would be in the purview of the manufacturer of the seat itself. What might cost some money for Boeing would be updates to the crew seat manual (vendor) in the technical documents, and a service letter informing operators of the 787 of the changes and/or availability of update kits. Boeing is only the intermediate customer as they are the ones who selected that seat model.
@@CLTmech Boeing presumably signed off on that design, so I would anticipate any redesign would be at their expense, even if the seat is supplied by a third party.
Its all a fallacy because they didnt save money on the 737 max with not having to do the additional pilot training. Now they have to shell out millions to hundreds of families for helping down 2 aircraft.
great update Juan........and great advice on keeping the seat belt on, I know I always keep mine on.....cheers from Orlando, Paul
That switch should never move the seat forward. Why would it. Move back ONLY.
Good point.....only think any reason except something like cleaning..which is stupid or access to something underneath?
It's not reachable by the person in the moving seat. Truly a catastrophic engineering choice...
Wondering why this switch is needed at all... The other pilot had to get out of the seat somehow.
Or ost there a reason to move the seat forward again after you've left it?
Moving back? That could be just as bad. There should be no enabling seat movement with pilot inflight.
It was put there so you could easily move the seat out of the way (forward) when working in the cockpit. Wasn't ever meant to be used in flight. I guess it seemed like a good idea at the time...
sounds to me like they need to update the seat - not the manual!
This is why Boeing invensted so much into DAI ... to be able to say that its a rasist statment.
No worry, new ones will have four bolts with castle nuts and cotter pins.
Paper and PDFs are much cheaper than switches. Gotta keep that shareholder value maxed.
The seat is save.
The manual is not save.
Yeah, what if they couldn't move the seat back in time.
Something smelled fishy the moment I heard the "blanked out instruments" comment. I knew there would be more to this story.
Thanks for posting and for the analysis and demos. Great work.
And why would the pilot report to a passenger that the instruments “blanked out”?
@@stevebalt5234 I don't know why. I assume CYA. I watched a passenger being interviewed on CNN who said that's what the pilot said to him.
It’s like the Bob Newhart Skit. “Have you ever had one that hangs on for about four or five days ? I don't mind the headaches too much, but it's that damn double vision that just..”
Yep, some miss-information there as the story passed down the chain from pilit to media. Maybe the passenger was listening to pilot talking to others, and what he heard was not about that days events. All sorts of opportunities to get story wrong.
@@KludgeMaker Or the passenger could have just made something up in order to be interviewed by the CNN reporter. Either way, it's what is known as hearsay in court. We need to hear what the pilot actually said to the investigators, not a claim made by a passenger.
What I don’t understand is that the seat doesn’t instantly move it travels very slowly. You would think the pilots would notice their seat, inching closer to the yoke.
Lots of speculation he might have had a food tray or a tablet on his lap that contacted the control column. If so, only a little forward movement could have caused the item to become stuck between the pilot's torso and the column, pushing it forward, before the pilot was aware and able to react.
Got to love the solution. Not a recall, just updating the manual so Boeing can blame the crew next time
Promoted from a bug into the feature.
Seems like a genuine maintenance issue.
Excellent point!
they could use the Flight Assistants nail polish to paint the switch cover. Or maitinence could cover it in duct tape!
SCAS (Seat Characteristics Augmentation System). 🤣
Still enough unanswered questions even with this explanation - 1) would the crew be getting a meal on a three hour flight? 2) what happened to the flight attendant bringing the meal into the cabin - obviously not strapped in, so did that person sustain injuries? 3) what happened to the food? I would think there is plenty of evidence still on the various cockpit displays 4) it'll be interesting to see what the black box recordings actually show.
5) was it fish or chicken?
Sometimes, particularly on multi sector short flights, the only time available to eat is inflight.
Let's hope they pulled the circuit breaker.
So many questions...so early on.....
Couldn't it have been a drink (coffee, etc) rather than a meal. Whatever it was that caused the attendant to lean on the switch cover.
So the passenger who claimed that the pilot came into the cabin and told them that all the screens blanked out for a second was, let's say, not fully truthful?
Could be....no biggy.
That switch seems like more of a gee-wiz type gimmick that ended up causing a big problem. Imagine if this happened close to the ground?
Boeing is scheduled to add a button at the right thumb on the yoke that will remote open all the doors. Of course you wouldn't want to do that in flight, so they have a system where during the takeoff checklist you have to send a steward to each door to activate a lockout switch, but only after the pilot has checked and disarmed the lockout override switch above the copilot. Then, during an emergency the checklist calls for the steward to go to each exit and deactivate the lockout switch so the doors can be opened before everyone burns to death. Software checks to see if the various door switches disagree and if they do it disables the cockpit override switch so there are no accidents, unless there is already an engine fire code set or the wheels on the ground switch is set, then it doesn't deactivate the override. Each of these switches and features have their own breaker on the panel. Failure to do the steps in the correct order will blow all the doors open in flight, or lock all the doors with no way to open them. The final override is to climb down into the cargo area and pull the mechanical lockout release which looks like a cargo tiedown attach point next to all the other tiedown attachments, but painted flat orange instead of gloss orange.
That one took some real forethought. Bravo! 😁@@johnpublic6582
They don’t serve meals close to the ground 🙂
Yeah, how did we do without a powered seat in the first place for all these years.
Kind of like auto tire pressure monitoring and windshield wipers that sense rain.
Lets pull the co-pilot seat off the B-52 for the first officer and the FAA will get qualified eye witness accounts of what happened almost every time, if they can keep the bolts in the blow away roof panels. It is always the Sr. guys fault right? It is only a matter of time until the passenger restraint system is by the same people who do rollercoasters.
So a simple manual seat release lever wasn't good enough? I spent 15 years working on 747's. They had a similar track configuration but manual levers that had no issues as far as I know
Hey, using electric power limits carbon emissions...oh wait...
@@bggann You mean the pilot had to bend over and activate the switch? Was the airplane made of spruce and linen as well?
Same reason you have electrically adjustable seats in cars. Quality of life.
@@johnpublic6582 I was making a joke, perhaps not a very good one, about how 'electrification' is the solution to everything. I also don't really follow what you're saying, so perhaps you are doing the same?
@@richardmillhousenixonNot me. Just one more heavy, expensive component that will fail and cannot be repaired. I'll take the manual sliders all day every day.
Thank you very much for the Update!👍
Thanks for the update!
Thanks for the continual updates. This is fascinating stuff.
This should mature into an AD mandating corrections to the switch.
Funny they already put out a FAA service buliten in 2017.
@@azzajohnson2123 A service bulletin does not mandate certain corrective actions. An AD does.
Gonna be a wonderful discussion with the insurance company 😂
That is for sure.
Thank you Juan for the update.
Thanks for your hard work and excellent videos. My 2 cents is don't make mealtime forget that we not in our dinning or living room. Both crew eating together suggests that our Self-Preservation-Instincts either are forgotten or will soon be forgotten...I remember starting as a 200 hour first officer, my attitude was "If my Captain moves his Big Toe inside his shoes I must see it" Eyes, Ears(inner/outer) and nose on Full Alert!
Self Preservation instincts means we are on guard for anything that can hurt us("what can kill me?") The awareness that "everything man makes breaks" keeps us aware of the consequences of "if this malfunctions" and the thought, "what do I do to stay alive(safe)".
We used to call pilots whose self preservation instincts were not fine tuned "Alice"(in wonderland).
Let's not be too hard...in first world countries we are taught from very young that self preservation instincts are not required. In my country very young children come off a bus and you better believe they are looking left, right and left again for the big collection of very hard parts that...
In first world counties the opposite happens, children are trained from very young just cross the road(school bus) you are as safe as in your living room.
Thumbs up to those who teach their kids to think safety!
When driving I often ask whoever is in the car, "if I slump forward with my foot flat on the throttle what would you do?" You should see their "never thought of that" faces!(Incidentally so many cars are designed with the emergency brake accessible by only the driver)
If in everyday life we think 'self preservation", it may become second nature in the cockpit.
This kinda reminds me of that A330 MRTT where the pilots camera slid forward and bumped the sidestick forward.
I was thinking exactly the same thing!
Except the camera was a foreign object and this is yet another QA failure...
@@Argosh Absolutely! The button being stuck vs camera being lodged is totally different.
But, in both cases it was the same action: a hard push on the stick/yoke deactivated the autopilot and obeyed the command.
In the A330, the envelope protection system saved the day, does the 787 also have this kind of protection?
@@Argosh This situation is more likely a design issue than a QA one.
@@georgH Yeah, no s---. Also, how do you know it didn't come loose overtime?
Hi Juan
If you notice in the video of the seat moving, the cover is not flush with the edges of the seat shell.
This indicates to me that some FOD is under the cover touching the switch! AKA a wadded up napkin etc?
Also there is an off on switch, red in color on the inboard side of the seat back , sorry no pictures. 😮😢
Hopefully this will be resolved.
JM 😅😊
Thanks for your excellent reporting as usual, Juan.
The plane can't detect if someone is sitting in the seat? Seems like if someone is in the seat, that switch should just not do anything at all.
That would require at least one additional switch to implement to detect the pilot sitting in the seat. Just another switch to fail.
@@jackfromthe60s "Why should firearms even have safeties in the first place? Just another switch to fail"
Do you see how dumb that sounds?
@@richardmillhousenixon Are you serious? A firearm safety is a piece of dumb metal that prevents the trigger from moving. There's absolutely nothing to go wrong with it. An additional switch would have to wired into the seat motor circuit. And a weight sensitive switch would need to be under the seat somewhere, making inspection difficult. The solution to a possible switch failure isn't just to add another switch.
What about a pilot incapacitation? Someone outside of the seat will need to be able to move the seat back to get the pilot out of the seat and render medical aid.
That switch should be disabled when there's someone in the seat. Boeing needs to install a WoS (Weight on Seat) lockout switch.
Yes, but also Boeing needs to have NOT thrown together the admittedly very innovative 787 -- in horribly chaotic and haphazard ways and grossly UNDER-inspected the product -- just to save money for The Holy Shareholders.
That switch should be reverse only.
Seat should be mechanical as they have been for 70+ years. There was no issue with moving seats, electrifying it was a solution to a non existent problem.
Like 90% of solutions designed nowadays, especially in the EU 😄
Glad to hear your pronounciation of "Latam". Have flown on them from the US to Argentina several times. Great experience years ago.😊
Holy Crap! Who coulda Thunk it? A simple loose switch ended up causing a major upset of the aircraft.
A loss of Apollo 14 almost occured due to one switch having a bit of solder floating around it in zero g. The switch just happened to be the abort switch. They had to do some pretty amazing memory splicing of code to the AGC to ignore inputs from the button to keep the mission going.
Interesting that now it may have been someone accidently pressing the cover of a switch.... but the crew originally said they lost all of the displays?
Allegedly said.
Could the gs have caused the screens to black out?
Or something else hit during the upset
A passenger said to someone that the crew said this to someone else
@@gokmachine yeah those passenger interviews weren't exactly the pinnacle of investigative journalism
Someone on reddit claiming to be a passenger on the flight claimed that the pilot said that.
Unbelievable... 😮 Always amazes me how such trivial malfunctions can have (potentially) serious, even fatal, results....
For want of a nail...
Why not put a simple weight-sensing switch in the seat and disable the seatback rocker switch when the seat is occupied? We use such sensors in car seats to control airbag deployment, so its not exotic tech or anything... As a pilot myself, I'm baffled why that was never a design consideration - seems like inadvertent activation of a switch like this was only a matter of time...
Not sure I like the idea of a weight switch in a machine that can experience negative G. I think they are better off redesigning the current switch to prevent this type of occurrence.
@@jackfromthe60s - While I agree that G-forces are an aspect to consider, if your Airliner is experiencing negative G's you're _already_ in a bad situation. That's quite the outlier case to plan your system around.
Thank you Juan. Heard it from you way before it was on the news 👍
Good advice for all passengers.
So your hypothesis (as seen in your previous vid) was correct!
Thank you Juan as always an excellent analysis and explanation for us av geeks !!!
Boeing went from this megalithic company to the Yugo of the airways.
Maybe there shouldn't even be a king-sized rocker mechanism. Seems like two low-profile, or even recessed, arcade-game buttons would be less prone to unintended actuation
being seat-belted was not much protection from the falling bodies of those who weren't seat-belted.
Indeed.
Still, if seat belted you are less likely to be seriously injured by someone unbelted falling onto you than to be thrown head-first into the ceiling and then falling onto an armrest or other hard object like the unbelted person. And if your belted in, you do have the seat back and the armrests left and right of you to absorb a lot the force if someone does fall directly into your seat. Yes, you might get injured, but far less likely to be a serious injury if your seatbelt is fastened in a sudden upset like happened on this flight.
I know nothing about flying except for I was afraid of it till watching channels like this, and Blanco NAILED this days before the cause came out.
Note that in the next paragraph of the WSJ document it says there had already been a service note on this issue back in 2017 so this should have been part of normal safety checks. This fault should have been reported if pilots and cabin staff had previously noticed the loose switch.
I will need to see under the switch cover in that "moving by itself" video. They issued guidance on this in 2017, and they are not sure this was the cause of the latest incident, but are talking about it again as a precaution, apparently.
What I think may have actually happened is that the FA temporarily rested the plate with the steak you showed us yesterday on the switch.
🙂
If the nose pitched down suddenly, wouldn't the FA be left floating and fall into the instrument panel between the pilots, along with anything they'd brought with them.
Perhaps the food tray impacted the control column, and not the pilot...
Juan I’m a 78 guy at your airline. I’ve never seen a FA come anywhere near that switch. I’m sure most don’t even know it exists. Who knows what happened.
The hypothesis here is that the flight attendant just put her hand on the back of the seat, which would seem normal if reaching past it to hand someone a drink or a meal - and happened to put her hand on the switch's cover, clipping it down onto the displaced switch.
Pretty clear she doesn't know it exists, or she would have avoided touching it.
@@robertbackhaus8911 interesting idea. I don’t know how Latam does it but at my airline when, in flight, the FA passes a meal or drinks forward they just pass it to the non flying pilot through the open door, pleasantries are exchanged and then that pilot hands things out. The FA doesn’t enter the flight deck.
So much for that eyewitness that said the Captain told him all his screens went blank🤨. Great update Juan! Cheers from CYYB.
My 20 year old Honda Accord has a pressure switch that prevents the passenger side from going off if an object less than 45 or so lbs is in the passenger seat. So you’re telling me that the $350 million 787 doesn’t have a switch that prevents the rear seat controls from being activated if the effing pilot is in the seat. I swear, the entire engineering division in Boeing needs to be sent to Gaza to build this freaking pontoon bridge. Might could learn something from the Army Corps folks.
Passenger side airbag that is…
No, the $350 million 787 doesn´t have because nobody thought that something like that could happen.
Not sure if that's the case or not, but if it is, it's yet another example of terrible engineering decisions at Boeing. This scenario shouldn't have been too difficult to predict given how the flight controls in the Boeing jets work. Someone should have anticipated every way that an electronically seat could fail and design in features that would prevent the rear controls from being activated while the pilot is in the seat. Boeing used to lead the world in heavy aircraft engineering, but honestly, rather fly in a 50 year old 727 than anything they've made in the last 10 years. @@NicolaW72
So instead of a simple mechanical seat latch, it’s a power seat operable by anyone from behind the pilot’s back. The fix will be to write some (buggy) code to disable the dumb switch when the weight-on-the-gear sensor tells the computers they’re airborne, adding another layer of stupidity to the system. Then, when there’s some major computer or electrical failure in flight, the seat can move forward uncommanded, crushing the pilot against the yoke and panel just before the plane performs its uncommanded dive.
Simple is always better.
@@Plutogalaxy No. You need to be quite stupid to compare a rocker switch to fly by wire.
Thank you Juan.
Thanks. Interesting to see the actual hardware involved and learn about the autopilot disengagement system.
While I understand why the button might make the seat go back, why does it need to make it go forward? I assume you can move the seat forward from the seat.
There are probably some good reasons, including access for maintenance. But it should not be possible (or at least so easy) with a person in the seat. Seems insane that it would be possible for a person behind the captain being able to crush them into to control column.
@@disphoto fair enough, though if it's not even an option on the 777 perhaps a valid fix it to remove the fire that makes it go forward, and if you want to make it go forward do the same as on the 777
And that’s why I like old school manual mechanical things. But they don’t make them like they used to.
Amen.
The 787 has both manual and electronic
Of course mechanical linkages fail as well. Not EXACTLY the same thing but I once found myself at the extreme rearward travel of the pilot's seat in a C-172 as I was executing a go-around from a short grass strip when the seat slide aft as I pitched up to go around. Known issue with wear in the seat track allowed it to slip.
I still drive my beater for commuting. Manual transmission, manual windows, hydraulic steering.
If you source switches from Ali baba they might be loose.
You called it on this one Juan! Great job!
You absolutely nailed the cause. Well done!
Seatcas
I heard that the LATAM pilots reported initially the controls *blacked out* or went out.
AND doesn't it seem crazy that the seat could go forward so fast that it slammed the yoke hard enough to override autopilot? That seat moving didn't look like it could cause the precipitous dive that sent 50 passengers head-first into the ceiling panels. Does the seat actually go far enough forward to push the int the yoke causing the aircraft to lose control? If so that would be insanely stupid.
No it was apparently a passangers account (not verified even if they were on the flight) that the pilot said that within ear shot of him) Personally its all hearsay and the PAX is full of shit because no way a pilot would devulge anything like that knowing there would be lawsuits pending.
That’s a good point - that it would seem highly unprofessional for a pilot to utter something like that. But pilots are not all robot-like. Lots of stories of experienced pilots saying and going weird shit. Especially after an adrenaline/cortisol rush such as they experienced.
I understand that Boeing sent out a communique or memo to 787 operators that some switches on these planes were misbehaving.
Do airlines and pilots pay attention to such intel? Would they go to the trouble to brief their flight crew, that pilots seats had moved on their own and to watch out not to mess with it (until they get the replacement part)
I’m still not buying that a stewardess leaned against the switch and caused the plane to go into zero Gs and drop how many thousands of feet.
You called it! Thanks, Juan!
Speaking to my instructor, who’s a 78 pilot. He said theirs a red power off switch located on the side of each seat and also the manual control removes the electric drive gears from the track, so they should have been able to easily overcome a moving chair.
And I'm sure they eventually did, but if there was something in the pilot's lap that hit the column before the pilot fully processed what was happening, it would be enough to have caused the pitch down movement before the pilot realized what was happening and overrode the seat movement controls. The seat moves slowly and something like a food tray or a tablet on the pilot's lap could have pushed the control column forward before much forward movement of the seat.
Something going on with Boeing beyond quality control, some kind of supernatural force. I was a mechanic for 34 years and I don't remember ever having an AOA failure yet as soon as they designed a system that relied on a single AOA signal there were two catastrophic failures within months of each other resulting in complete loss. Now this stupid switch and a dead whistleblower in the same week? You couldn't write a movie script with this much mayhem and get people to believe it.
the Lion Air AoA sensor was maintained very poorly, if you actually read the report. That AoA failure is on the airline. Ethiopian's was a case of either a bird strike (in which case that's something Boeing should've anticipated) according to the NTSB and the BEA, or electrical issues (which blames Boeing even more) according to the Ethiopians.
@@OwlRTA regardless an AOA failure should not cause the plane to decide to pitch down towards the ground. Spurious stall warnings are understandable but not deciding to move the stabiliser into a down position without alerting the pilots
@@tomstravels520 It never has before because on other planes there have always been three AoA sensors and computer logic to detect and ignore a failed unit.
@@johnpublic6582 well even the 777 has just 2x AOA sensors. 787 has 2 physical and 1 synthetic. A350 has 4
And there was a crash of an A320 because 2 sensors froze and computer rejected the only good one which led to a stall when pilots thought it was all good. Airbus have addressed this though
I bet he spilled gravy on his uniform!
Your theory was very much spot on. Amazing.
Was there any bulletins prior to this about a switch problem? Great video once again. Thanks Juan your insight is commendable.
It’s a “Christine car seat!!”
lol.....I just watched that movie a few days ago
Is that you Cunningham?
787 Fury
That switch should disable automatically if there is weight on the seat or if the pilot harness is engaged. It's a dangerous design, as anything could get trapped between the switch and its cover, causing the seat to move. A simple seat switch could have resulted in a major tragedy, and this flight (and Boeing) got lucky this time.
This Time are the key words. This could have been a catastrophe above and beyond the already serious situation of many injuries.
Some of you may remember, on the DC-10 we had a comical flow chart circulating for awhile that detailed what to do in the event of a run-away cockpit seat. It was appropriately titled the "Jammed B_ _ _ LS Checklist". It was a flow chart which asked questions questions and pointed in different directions for the next question based on the answer to the first. Typical questions were for example "Can the pilot breath" or even "What color were the pilots B_ _ LS". Sounds like one such checklist may once again begin making the rounds.
Great conversation