NEAR DISASTER | Multiple planes Cross Runway WHILE ANOTHER IS TAKING OFF!
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- Опубликовано: 19 апр 2024
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Now really, what's wrong with coordination between controllers lately? I guess 119.1 and 123.9 positions are literally seating next to each other?
Been saying it for the past few weeks that something needs to change before a disaster occurs, and people replied "ATC IS A FEDRAL JOB, NOTHING TO DO WITH CAPITALISM, ALL GOOD " But the fact that FAA changed resting periods and more hiring proves my point!
He then has them leave via 31L (given they just had an incursion you would think you would want to get them on the taxiways) and then clears a plane to land while they are still taxiing on 4L quite a long distance from 31L. I think he panicked then, because he just told them to leave via kappa after twice telling them 31L. This was a cluster****.
This is absolutely crazy. Mistakes happen, but this kind of mistake should be a once in a blue moon event, not a twice a week event. If this keeps happening, sooner or later the pilots aren't going to notice in time to fix ATC's mistake.
@@Blast6926 "more hiring"
yeah theyve been trying more hiring for years. Its not working, they need something done but congress keeps sitting on their ass
@@-Bill. Clearing aircraft to land while another aircraft is on the runway is standard practice in the US. They don't see a problem with it...
Must have been weird for the 17K pilot to get take off clearance and then watch 4 aircraft cross in front of him. Something to tell the grandkids.
Think they'll believe it? "Now kids, did I ever tell you about that takeoff where I had not one, not two, not three, but FOUR runway incursions at once?" The grand kids will think his mind is going...
The first aircraft might've blocked all the others from view...if not they stayed very cool!
@@JC130676- Oh you don’t believe me? (They pull up this video.)
The controller confused "incursion" with "excursion" and thought it meant that everyone had to go on an excursion and explore as much of the runway as possible 🤣😂
@JC130676 "Yeah grandpa. Is that why they took your pilot's license away? Did your eyes get too bad to fly?" 🤣
Imagine if it was foggy outside
A disaster to rival Tenerife
The amount of surprise on the day that nightmare unfolds will be insane.
@@SmokeyBCNThat was my immediate thought!
They have ASDE that is a ground radar and yells out loud at the controllers and you can see planes at every location on the airfield. It likely saved the situation once the aircraft was over 6O KTS it will alarm.
You had that last year, with FedEx and SW. The weather was so bad that demanded cat 3 approach.
That FedEx crew somehow managed to save the day. Absolute heroes in my book.
Im not sure whats I prefer, hearing controllers shouting S"TOP STOP STOP" in panic! Or hearing a pilot CASUALLY "saying aborting take off, traffic on runway" and the controllers not seeming that bothered!
Yes, the tone of that was professional and matter of factly, as if he more of less expected it and it was business as usual...
Controller, when available, I have a number for you to copy.
No but serious, how it is possible that only thing that prevented disaster was pilots visual? Are these communications in different frequencies so noone actually found out what is going on?
Pilot saw a total of four planes casually crossing the runway he was cleared to take off from, so he kindly declined ;)
@@LaggerSVK Seriously how can we violate a controller beside an ASAP report? I've seen some really dumb and non-standard stuff creating a lot of confusion and even leading to missing a crossing restriction because "Neew Yoorkars" gotta say everything funny and not standard.
@@LaggerSVK And if visual conditions prevented the pilot from seeing down the runway, it could have turned into another Tenerife
This is the most outrageous ATC error I've ever seen on this channel. Five aircraft were exposed to significant risk due to such a mistake... What exactly happened here needs to be thoroughly investigated...
Agreed, Tenerife showed that following a collision an airliner can slide hundreds upon hundreds of feet down a runway. They could have lost 3 or 4 planes with this event.
Starting with the ground controller. I wonder if green and red traffic signals would be useful here.
Clearly DEI. Too many white males getting jobs they aren't qualified for.
What's odd is that is almost identical to the Washington incident few days back. Could it be some bug in the system they are using?
I mean, same procedures for years with little to no incidents and all of a sudden two in a row...It does look odd to me.
Do Tower and Ground controllers not have data blocks on their radar that would show speed? And if the radar doesn't work at ground level don't they have doppler radar that gives an indication of motion?
Admiration for the SwissAir pilot, limiting his call to simply “Aborting takeoff. Traffic on runway.”
I'll bet off the air it was more like WTF?!
But he did then follow it up with a "You don't sound like you're panicking as much as I think you should, are you sure you heard me?"
Pretty cool attitude 😆-"we're getting used to it, happens almost every day now". Seriously, I hope he filed an incident report.. Absolutely crazy
@@erika8357Oh, I think this is going to be considered a MAJOR incident. If it had been foggy, the death toll would have been higher than Tenerife.
Yes, indeed. I hadn't found the right words yet. Cool and collected? No. Relaxed, matter of fact? Just another day at work?
"Do you want to try again?"---"No thanks, I'd prefer to taxi to an airport that has controlled runways."
When the pilot screws up they are quick to admonish and give numbers to call.
The controllers acted like nothing happened and hurried the swiss off the runway lmao.
Procedure. This will be dealt with too but not on channel.
I mean they aren’t going to give themselves a number on frequency.
@@mordanlike Come on! Let's be real here. How many times have we heard some smug controller making derogatory comments and handing out a phone number with a tone of superiority?
Does the controller here in any way acknowledge the mistake or even apologize for the mistake to the Swiss crew? Nope, nothing.
It is NOT procedure to ignore a huge problem and a phone number is NO excuse to simply ignore a potential disaster with lots of dead people and to behave as if nothing happened. Communication should have been to discuss quickly what has happened, to make amends, to hand out that phone number and to continue later on the phone. Not communiating AT ALL IS NOT PROCEDURE. Jesus Christ! Socmany people here just talk out their asses again. If that continues, people are going to die. The question is not if but when.
@@cherryocola
They already know the number they don’t need to give it to themselves. Of course, this had to be reported to the FAA.
JFK needs to follow ATL's procedure for runway crossings. ATL does it right - the controller issuing the takeoff clearances for a given runway is the same one who issues the crossing instructions for that runway. JFK's way of having two different controllers on two different frequencies is a recipe for disaster.
ABSOLUTELY……1 Controller ..ATL really does it right…Have for years…
Same at DFW. Crazy that a ground controller has ANY authority to give runway crossing instructions
@@jsridoutIt’s completely standard procedure in the US. Runway crossing procedures are required to be conducted over intercom lines, and many facilities where ops like these occur on the regular usually require a visual memory aid.
Somewhere down the line a shortcut may have been taken, but it’s normal and not unusual in the US for ground to issue runway crossings for many reasons.
I came here to say the same thing! I’m often waiting to cross 4L after landing 4R and see multiple aircraft line up and take off, all without hearing a peep because the runways are on different freqs. Makes absolutely no sense. ATL surely does it properly & much safer. How does the same agency (👀 at u FAA) do it so differently in two busy class B airports, one of which has been demonstrated over and over to be less safe. Boggles my mind 🤯
Honestly, as a layman, I'm really surprised that this isn't the procedure at every airport.
This is getting way out of control
Surely you can't be serious
Easiest way to make these incidents happen less often, is for only Tower to have the authority to approve runway crossings - not ground. (In this incident Tower gave the approval, but in yesterday's video it was ground).
Maybe ground could talk to tower and coordinate the request, or the aircraft has to contact to tower themselves. It doesn't seem like this change would slow operations that much at all. Maybe slightly elevated work load for tower, as they would have to approve all runway crossings, but the extra safety precautions would be nice.
If the air traffic controllers screw up, they still get to go home to their families, while pilots and passengers reap the consequences.
@@alexadamson1322 Everything's monocausal eh
@@ES031 Ironically, the ENTIRE DEI way of thinking is based on monocausal explanations. DEI is an absolute trash heap
@@ES031 Don't use logic you're going to hurt his brain. Just because he was tricked by a grifter into believing something he thinks he should be mad about. These people aren't interested in a solution to real problems. They're here to be mad. And also make grifters more money.
That Swiss pilot is remarkably calm and collected, considering the controllers threw four entire airliners in front of him during his take off roll
I think given the visibility, it was pretty clear he put the gas, saw the plane on the right, aborded, told the ATC
You get a number!
You get a number!
You get a number!
Everyone get a number!
Conference call time
It’s like the deli line at my local grocery store.
That's Numberwang
Not for the Tower. Pilots get a number immediately when made a mistake, but no one punish controller when they make a mistake
This is happening far too frequently...
@@captaindunsel2806 Everyone involved here is white dudes. Nice delusion tho!
I warned that exactly this would start happening all around the world and in every industry back in 2020 when the evidence was already building the EVERY COVID infection however mild has a devastating effect on a person's ability to perform certain cognitive tasks including cognitive tasks VERY IMPORTANT for air traffic controllers and pilots. Also in medicine people are reporting more mistakes than ever before, even since the phase we entered in late 2021 of "everybody go back to work and shopping and keep catching COVID now, reinfections do not cause cumulative brain damage just ignore the science, stop wearing masks inside cos it is bad for shopping morale for you to think about the brain damage you all have by being told to wear them still, and we are not going to install HEPA filters in public buildings as recommended as the ONLY way to actually prevent infections, so you are all going to get brain damage that will make you much more prone to making mistakes at work but most of you won't be able to tell for yourself that your cognitive abilities have declined, as the studies show most people are blissfully unaware they have got dumber enough though before and after infection brain scans and cognitive tests show the decline is dramatic".
It is an epidemic of post-COVID infection silent brain damage, an epidemic of silent cognitive decline predicted in 2020 after studies that were ignored.
COVID ages the brain between one and ten years on average and in long COVID it then starves it of oxygen for months or years In long COVID, oxygen is normal in the blood but does not reach other tissues, every tissue including the brain is chronically starved of oxygen, causing irreversible degeneration acceleration in all ages and increased rates of dementia as we are seeing. Excess deaths from all causes are going to keep going up as are complaints in the fields of medicine, aviation and all industries that colleagues are making far more mistakes at work than ever before.
It is repeat COVID infection silent brain damage, cognitive decline following even mild infections, been known about and ignored since 2020.
I know it wasn’t part of the problem, but I understood the Swiss Air pilot with his accent, better than the controller in the tower. Airports have to slow their roll before there’s a big tragedy…it’s only a matter of time.
I know how training works in Switzerland. These people are highly professional. Sadly, in the US, they don't have these high standards when if comes to professionalism.
JFK airport is over used and constrained from expanding effectively. We should have built another major upper East Coast airport in the 90s to compensate.
While this is true, I think the above was referring to the controller's rate of speech. They simply speak way too quickly. I am a native speaker who has lived in the Northeast, and it's still way too quickly. The ATCs should receive training and instruction to slow down their speech and enunciate more clearly, regardless or how busy the airport is. No excuses.
@@LeTangKichiro ouch !
It's absolutely hilarious that the accented English of Japanese, Nordic, Arabic, Brazilian, Slavic, etc. controllers and pilots is more intelligible than half of American controllers. Mad world.
Damn, I was in this conga line and saw the Swiss rejecting. Didn't even realize this is what went down.
English is not my native language, but I assume this means you were in one of the 4 planes that were cleared to cross rw4. Were you in the cockpit? I was curious about what ATC said to those pilots after they crossed.
Luckily you lived to tell the tale.
@@andreea007not necessarily. One of the many planes taxiing. Maybe for take off. Conga line is a single file line.
@@andreea007 Sorry. There were about 5+ planes lined up for departure. I was on Caribbean Airlines flight 525, and saw the Swiss reject their takeoff. I just assumed they maybe had a configuration warning pop up, but i didn't realize there was something more serious happening further down the runway
@@gatechecked Thanks! It makes sense and I realize now it was a dumb question, but I'm glad I asked and learn something new.
We are months not years away from another Tenerife type catastrophe.
Only if we're lucky enough that it isn't going to be a matter of weeks. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong at the wrong time in the wrong place erroneously 😢
Don't even need to go as far back as Tenerife, how about Haneda Airport in Japan just four months ago.....
I just hope none of my family are in the plane when it happens this summer. It's inevitable given the level of total indifference by ATC to this issue.
Unbelievable - what is going on with ATC in the US?
Too long hours, put in before they are ready due to a shortage with more and more aircraft
@@SlipShodBob Forgot Understaffed and Underfunded.
Its been years since i worked local but good lord. There definitely was no coordination and not sure why they dont stay with local till clear.
DEI hires, thanks Joe Biden
@@BobWehadababyitsaboy69 How's that weather in Russia today Sergei? Is it snowing Ukrainian drones yet?
The controller almost sounded more annoyed that 17k hadn't reached 31L to exit the runway fast enough.
He had landing traffic inside 2 miles cleared to land, so he had to monitor the separation between that landing traffic and the Swissair jet that was taking his time getting off the runway. Also, this whole thing started with that first Delta jet taking forever to get across 4L. When the controller clears three other aircraft, and then comes back to you a second time to add "no delay" to your clearance, you've taken way too long.
@@thekill2509 Idiotic attitude that gets people killed on full display here.
Slow things down.
@@thekill2509- There the traffic on final needs to be told to go around.
@@thekill2509 Also the controller on landing/takeoff is a separate person from the one on crossing/taxi. So it's even worse.
@AEMoreira81 not at JFK. They separate arrivals by 2500 ft at closest at JFK on short. 2 miles is "a ton of space" to JFK controllers. That airspace is too busy to have normal separation and operate properly with 4 runways active.
Why in the actual hell would you have the person clearing traffic to cross a runway not be the same person clearing traffic to take off and/or land that runway? This one is INSANE, you have what is essentially 4 runway incursions caused by ATC for a single flight.
OMG, they gave everyone clearance to cross 4L! I'm surprised that I wasn't given clearance to cross 4L. I should really check my messages....
That’s how almost all airports do it, nothing wrong with this other than an A/C being cleared for takeoff during the operation. Many airports are starting to use “loops” (Ex: ATL) where there is a taxiway that goes around the RWY to prevent the need to stop departures.
@@Logan_S1211and in ATL it seems to work wel
@@gotbordercollies it does, so well they made another on the other side of the airport lol. Just gotta watch for jet blast from departures lol
@@Logan_S1211 I think they are working on building those
Thanks for the laugh..it would be absurd if it wasn’t so potentially deadly.
That Swiss pilot is unbelievably chill considering the circumstances.
He had it under control. You're trained to expect mistakes and simply happy when you don't have any.
Q: what were the crossing pilots thinking?
As a pilot they had to be a bit scared that they messed up.
@@marlinweekley51 they weren't
@@marlinweekley51 They were all on the same freq, awaiting clearances to cross. SOP. Either the tower or ground control fouled-up. Simple stuff.
Kennedy Steve must be shaking his head.
Wow. You know when some pilots screw up at JFK some controllers go into hysterical lecturing crazies yet in this situation where 5 planes because of ATC were at risk nothing said. Not even an apology to the Swiss flight.
100%. Hearing this nonsense far too often lately. Pissy controllers laying into pilots like they’re the only ones to ever make errors. Two can play that game if that’s how they want to be. That said, most are like the Swiss crew and take the high road.
Yes. Humans are humans so mistakes will happen. It's just a fact. So if you're a pilot or a controller, you are not infallible even if you THINK you are. Accountability is also a rare trait. Ego and arrogance have cost many a life sadly. Tale as old as time..
JFK controllers are arrogant. They like to speak fast to keep the air clear but then waste minutes on their emotional tirades when they feel like it. Just unprofessional all around.
@@EWRFLYER More automation is the key. Solves many problems at once.
Well, the Swiss prevented the swiss cheese from happening!
It's scary to think, that it's only a matter of time before something bad will happen. Too many of these things happening lately...
There are a lot of failsafe systems in place that can prevent an accident even when ATC and pilots make a mistake
@@brin1814 like what for instance.
@@brin1814Lol, in this instance the only failsafe that prevented an accident here is the Swiss aircraft recognizing the traffic crossing the runway and rejecting the takeoff. Complacency and THIS ^^^ type of mindset is what is going to eventually get a lot of people killed.
@@brin1814and where were these failsafe systems in this case? If this was a foggy Day it would be a disaster
@@brin1814Stop talking out your ass. The only failsafe system here was two (possibly three) pairs of eyes in the Swiss cockpit. If they had no visual, it would have been a disaster. There are no failsafe system for this instance and if controllers in the US don't get their shit together, people are going to die. I hate people like you who muddy over the truth by spreading lies which will potentially kill people.
The Swiss pilot should have given the tower a number to call. “Kennedy Tower, possible controller deviation. I have a number for you to copy when you’re ready”
A joke that has never been made on this channel at all.
For sure
Well they don't know if it's a pilot dev or controller error at the time.
@@martino2385 Thanks…. Glad to be first
Yes because you know if the pilot was at fault that tower would be all over them.
I just noticed that at the end of the video, the 4L controller has been switched. Obviously, they pulled the controller right after the incident. The Swiss pilot is definitely from the Chuck Yeager school of radio communications.
If I were the Swiss pilot I would definitely have asked "and Runway 31 does not have any departing or landing traffic before I turn on it?"
They always cross airplanes. EWR, JFK, ORD will hold 2 / 3 planes shot of the active runway, then tell a departing aircraft to hold. Then they cross all 4 planes, then once the runway is vacant, they clear the aircraft for take off.
The FAA needs to address all these near misses. Before people are injured or killed.
yeah. the faa Is the problem
Swissair pilot was professional calm and kind
i thought this was going to be a reupload of the DCA that happened the other day. THIS IS NOT GOOD.
Same!
bingo ... quite surprised to see this again so soon !
Except that JFK is a way busier airport than DCA.
@@AEMoreira81 Indeed it is, thus why a foursome crossed the runway at the same time
Swiss Pilots seeing 4 planes simultaneously cross the runway in front of them on takeoff roll must of been a moment.
This is getting ridiculous. How many times have we seen this lately?
More often that we like.... That's an understantement.
ATC reminded me of a WW2 submarine movie, with the submarine firing off a spread of torpedoes so as to maximize their chances for a hit.
"You arrogant ass, you've killed us!"
@jonathankleinow2073 when the airplane goes down because of an arrogant captain, the first officer really should tell the captain that quote!
Remember “The Bedford Incident?” The Captain saying about the ASROC: “If they fire one I’ll fire one!” Weps officer: “Fire one!”
VAS, I understand that you don’t want to pan the audio channels or overlay them which would make it sound like a mess. However, something I’ve been wishing for in this videos is timestamps with seconds. This would make it easier to follow along, especially when there are things happening on different radio channels at different times and when there are many cuts/pauses in comms.
Other than this, your videos are of course superb.
What a consumate professional the Swiss Pilot is.
What a heart-stopping moment! The crew of Swiss flight 17 showcased their exceptional training and skill by making a split-second decision to abort takeoff. Glad it was the traffic was clearly visible. Not a good day for the air traffic controllers...
One aircraft would be bad, but 4 aircraft cleared to cross at the same time a 5th aircraft is cleared to take off? That's insane!
The number of aircraft crossing the runway isn't surprising. They stage several aircraft to cross at once for efficiency.
It's perfectly reasonable to cross multiple aircraft at once to avoid multiple such crossings, I want to know what was going on that the one Tower cleared the aircraft for takeoff when PRESUMABLY there was a gap set up for just this purpose!
Don't forget the landing aircraft as well
Q: what were the crossing pilots doing? Did they visually check the runway before crossing? Regardless of clearance good airmanship says “see and avoid” (or some have termed it , “don’t let a controller kill you”). The comment has been made the crossing traffic were on a different frek. Again good airmanship is to monitor the other active frek affecting your movement(s) - with two pilots in the cockpit and a “mon” button on the radio they should have been listening to tower giving Swiss the to clearance. Similarly landing or departing traffic would be talking to tower but monitoring ground. Everyone has a role to play in plugging the holes in the “swiss cheese” accident model. Eyes up ears on - see something say something do something. It’s what saved the day in this case for sure.
@@marlinweekley51 123.9 isn't always being used, but only during busy periods, so I'm not sure if the pilots would necessarily know to monitor that frequency. Additionally, looking out the window might not have helped if the planes next to them were blocking their view. Even then, depending on when the clearances were all issued, it's entirely possible that Swiss wasn't moving or didn't appear to be moving by the time they checked the runway.
This is why you'll often hear "Cross 4L at F traffic holds in position" or "Cleared to land 4L traffic departs prior to your arrival" "Cross 4L at G traffic 2 mile final a heavy Airbus"
If I see traffic on a runway and I do not hear one of these, I'm not crossing or landing on it.
So if I was Delta 29 Heavy and I saw Swiss 17K lining up and I only heard "Cross 4L" without hearing that situational awareness tool I'm staying put. Most probably the controller didn't tell me about that traffic because he doesn't know or has lost the SA to know and tell me about it.
Or ask ground controller if the aircraft lining up full length will hold.
This type of situation is happening much too often in the tower. Thank God visibility wasn't limited by weather or fog.
Limited visibility reduces the number of aircraft movements, things move more slowly.
Prime example of why we as pilots have to constantly be on our toes on the flight deck.
And they don't even allow the situational awareness of hearing other aircraft being given crossing instructions on the same frequency. Huge hole in the cheese to be honest. SA is paramount and on those long 12 hour days when you're fatigued you need every bit of SA possible.
SA only works with clear line of sight. What if it had been foggy or snowing heavily?
there is a difference GA airlike like yourself and flying a commercial. Your making it sound like you fly passenger aircraft LOL
@@gsdalpha1358Then Teneriffe 2.0 would have happened
@@ellietny3238 Exactly
Wherever I go in the world, I'm always reminded of the professionalism and my admiration for SwissAir. They are a really top notch outfit.
I don't think it was just being polite, or just by chance he didn't have a few words with the controller on air. I think the crew was that far ahead on everything, and having words over it at that moment might have delayed them the precious time in fuel needed for another shot at getting the hell out of there. Professionals at work in that cabin.
I’m a retired controller and what we did thanks to a Patco controller was bend the strip of the departing aircraft up as a reminder that you gave the ground controller the crossing
Do they still use paper strips in places like JFK?
The pilots were the first ones to notice. Controllers didn’t say anything.
No, they just acted annoyed at the Swissair pilot.
Shouldn't crossing traffic be cleared by the controller operating the runway?
Not necessarily.
thats what I thought
@@VASAviationwell there lyes the problem...And hasn't been just once in as many weeks either. We know what happens, but we also know what SHOULD happen
Are we heading for another Tenerife? Way too frequent
To rush the Swiss Air to vacate the RWY was unnecessary after the reject.
This is the controller that I’ve heard give absolutely zero grace when a pilot makes a mistake. Today he almost caused a catastrophic accident and should be the one having a discussion with the FAA. Unless I missed it, I didn’t hear an apology to 17K. Unbelievable!
Lmao, the controllers acted like nothing happened.
Not even an apology.
We always get transferred back to the tower frequency for crossing active runways here in Asia. Maybe a major accident needs to happen before this gets changed in the US
Yeah, this is even weirder. JFK is using two tower frequencies. As I understand it, one controller is in charge of landing/takeoff clearances, and the controller next to him on a separate frequency is in charge of crossing clearances. I've been following this channel and some other aviation channels for quite a while, but this (especially with the recent spate of runway clearance issues) is the first time I've started to question my confidence in the safety of air travel. We can't afford to have constant close calls again and again. Eventually all the holes in the "swiss cheese" are going to line up.
@@criminy_ Perhaps it is to much work for only one ATC controller, in this case they should divide the airport in two or more halves (so to speak) with each half with only one ATC in charge so there is no extra work with coordinating takeoff clearances with the crossing clearances.
If both clearances are done by the same person there is a good chance of having the situational awareness of an occupied runway since coordinating with only yourself is a rather easy task (and even that still fails sometimes).
But I am sure NTSB and other institutions will look at these problems in near future, hopefully before any accident with fatalitys have happened.Trouble is that the trained staff doesn't grow on trees...
@@criminy_ Not quite. During busy periods, 123.9 is used for 4L in this case, and 119.1 is used for 4R and crossing 4L. When it isn't as busy, 123.9 isn't being used, and 119.1 would handle everything.
That was my thought too. Any crossing of an active runway should be under the tower NOT ground.
@@AEMoreira81 That WAS tower, just a different controller with a different frequency. The tower controller running 123.9 was handling take-off and landing for 4L, and the tower controller running 119.1 was handling landing on runway 4R and crossing on runway 4L.
Funny when you consider how smug these controllers get if pilots make a mistake…
That was absolutely appalling and unforgivable.
This could easily have been a 1500+ fatalities "accident". This is the first time one of these videos have made me feel livid.
WTF, we almost had 4 Tenerifes here:(
Great job by SwissAir … glad it wasn’t low vis
Damn I was a few jets behind the Swiss that day and saw him reject. So calm, just taxied around and left. I definitely would have had a word with ATC.
We have railroad crossing signals that prevent cars from crossing in front of an approaching train. Why don't see have a similar failsafe system for runway/taxiway intersections?
We do on some airports
There would be lights at the hold line that indicates when a runway isn't clear but I'm not sure at what airports that it's installed at
@@mikeythesoulace Tokyo's Haneda has!
@@nankinink They were out of service on that day. Well known fact... One factor in the Swiss cheese model.
I'm pretty sure JFK has them. That said, if the planes were given crossing clearances before Swiss was given take-off clearance, that wouldn't have solved anything once those planes were past the hold short line.
I did not hear the control tower apologize or say thanks to the Swiss pilot’s alertness
Hope that the civil aviation investigation finds out the flaw in the system
I don't know ,as a foreign pilot ,I find it's easier to understand pilots than controller ,gosh ,they speak fast.
The real issue here is that you have 2 controllers doing 2 different jobs on the SAME runway -- why? 1 person should have more than enough capability to line up and aircraft and have them wait, then tell a couple aircraft to cross, and then once that's done go back to the plane ready to depart. You eliminate someone else's error by being in FULL control of your runway.
Maybe Kennedy needs to alter their plan and let Controller A handle the line up/takeoff/crossing on 4L, while the other controller ONLY handles aircraft arriving 4R and taxiing them up to and holding short of 4L. This airport has had too many close calls lately, something needs to be fixed.
"2 controllers doing 2 different jobs" D = diversity
I've never flown to an airport where 2 different frequencies handle the same runway. Guess it's a US thing.
It's a crazy North American thing. Allow you to cross an active runway whilst on a different frequency. It's one of the most stupid rules I've seen.
There would be some procedure for this. However, it clearly was followed incorrectly.
It's not. At least, it's not supposed to be. According to the airport diagram, 119.1 (the guy who cleared the planes to cross) is 4R-22L and 13L-31R. The controller who cleared the plane for takeoff is the 4L-22R and 13R-31L controller.
@@KingdaToro it clearly is. Every where else, they transfer you back to the active tower frequency. That means all crossing traffic here should have switched momentarily to the 4L frequency for frequency to cross. This is how its done everywhere else.
This is the situation we would described as a "Cluster Fuck" in the military.
yeppir
Did they really save a significant amount of fuel with the intersection departure? Enough to prevent the need to refuel?
They avoided taxiing further and jumped ahead a few aircraft. They got priority after the abort
Depends how many aircraft were waiting for departure at full length….K3 let them skip the line I guess
@@VASAviationeven if I didn't need to refuel, which is probably the case anyway, I would be telling them that too.. A bit like "well, this is your stuff up, you owe me"
Yeah, I think it was a polite way of requesting they still get to take off next instead of going to the back of the queue.
They need to shut down JFK and do a deep dive root cause corrective action investigation. No less than 5 aircraft involved. This could have made Tenerife look like a fender bender. Kudos to the 17K crew for getting it stopped.
I doubt Swiss Air could've hit more than 1 of the crossing planes, even with blind abandon. However, the 119 controller certainly increased the chances of one getting hit by putting a virtual net of aircraft across the runway. Almost like a dare to Swiss Air, "miss this, buddy."
@@rickyjanzen6684 Totally agree but I will say in my experience these things have a tendency to cascade once they get started.
@@rickyjanzen6684 Imagine if it had been foggy and Swiss managed to narrowly miss the first plane and telling themselves: "Ah, that was close. Lucky us."
I'm an anxious flyer but I've always tried to rationalize that the safety of the planes, pilots and airport control will make almost everything OK. I'm starting to lose that reassurance after the recent incidents with ATC and Boeing jets.
SwissAir Pilot: "And when you are able, I have a number for you to copy for a possible tower deviation"
Imagine this exact situation in night or foggy conditions. This could very well end up in a disaster.
With maybe 2000 fatalities worst case
All that's really needed now? A bit of weather, an impatient pilot with "get home-itis", not watching down the runway because he, "already saw it was clear" and just enough speed... ..... is that disaster clock ticking faster than normal? I believe it is... ...
Definitely ticking faster... You know the worse thing? Is when it happens, the only people that will be surprised will be the non aviation public. The rest of us will be saying "Well, we seen that coming"
@@rodneywallace2984And you know that once something happens the one or two controllers will be the only ones to go to jail for it. Gotta pass the blame down so that nobody starts asking too many questions.
Impatient pilot with get-home-itis, OR perfectly diligent pilots in thick IMC, or pilots using a HUD for takeoff, making it difficult to see aircraft or lights ahead on the runway. I agree. Scary stuff.
Agreed. Get rid of this bs procedure of multiple aircraft being cleared to land and take off on runways occupied by other aircraft. And one common frequency for one runway movement. Not exactly problem solved but a huge gap being closed.
@@aerofreak2053 And all those we can't even think of yet. Not until it's too late.
Ouch times four!!!!
Thank You SwissAir!
Sooner or later…Kablammo!
No apology from ATC…and PIC spotted their error.
Which one of them needed to apologize?
How would an apology help?
And you really do not want to be the subject of a Juan Brown kablammo report.
@@neilkurzman4907Atc definitely could have apologized here but nooooo its the USA so they continue to spit ultra fast and hard to understand commands
@@lammie001
Which ATC needed to apologize? Or maybe it’s both of them because they failed to communicate. Did they know at time that one of them screwed up?
Apparently, apparently their focus was to keep the the airport operating.
And the controller handling the jet that had to abort. The takeoff was given priority to get back on the runway.
Apparently, that’s what the can I get on a K4 was. Meant he didn’t have to get to the back of the line.
The Swiss captain should politely ask if ATC has a pen ready to copy his personal phone number
Possible tower deviation
Unlikely, he's a professional not a child on RUclips.
The state of ATC and air travel in general in America right now is abhorrent; there's no other way to describe it. This is not only embarrassing, but terrifying and unthinkably dangerous.
Unfortunately, our government is more focused on handling everyone else's problems and not ours. When you hear people say "America First", this is the kind of thing we're talking about. Sure, we can help out when we can, that's fine, but it can't come at the expense of things like this.
@@logicplague2077 Ok, quick question here: What are the American people going to do about it? It always seems to be somebody else's fault. "The government", the "FAA", "Biden" etc. But are people and the media there just sitting around doing nothing?
We had one single runway incursion in my country years ago and the people were totally up in arms about it. Politicians were all over it and it was in the news. Is American society as a collective failing? It seems to me that it is... And EVERYBODY needs to carry the blame. Americans need to stop being nice little consumers, eating fast food and watching porn and actually take back responsibility for their country.
It was the "America First" crowd that created these conditions.
Sleepy Joe Biden is sleeping on this mess, but if you think the competition intends to do anything about this, well, I'll keep it polite and say you'll be as shocked as the general public.
The USA is a fkn disaster. Read: "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand.
@@logicplague2077 what do you think we're doing for our allies that make it so we can't fix ATC?
Oooof. That would’ve been a record. And not a good one
It's that time again.
There was a time when a physical baton was handed off in the tower from atc to ground when taxi traffic needed to cross an active runway. Nobody could issue a clearance to takeoff land or cross if they were not holding the baton
Bring this back
Wow again
Good thing it was still daytime. If this had happened at night, things could have gone very differently.
That Swiss Air was a helluva lot more patient than I would have been. There would have been some words exchanged on the air. I had a runway incursion at HPN many years ago, the controller was completely oblivious. But he knew I wasn't a happy camper....very close call.
I wish the Swiss pilot had made some comment on this to the tower, like "that was unacceptable" or "this is inexcusable" or something, but he just took it all in stride.
I think it is kind of Swiss mentality. Keep calm, do not panic, don't put comments publically on the air.
@@galdavonalgerri2101 And then make a very stern and nasty phonecall.
Good job to the swiss pilot for realising the situation evolving and safely rejecting at low speed. The rate of near misses is concerning though
Never have understood why two different controller on two different frequencies can both exercise access control to an active runway.
Because they seat next to each other and they coordinate. But sometimes coordination does not occur or it fails
It's one of the most stupid rules. Yet somehow, it's allowed. Hopefully for not much longer.
@@VASAviation Except airport diagram lists 119.1 being responsible for 4R-22L, not 4L-22R…
Is this going to happen every day? The FAA literally just released new guidelines within the past 24 hours, and yet this is still going on.
There is too much traffic. Faa needs to avoid clearing for departure or clearing for landing if there are other traffic expected before the landing or departing. Having 5 aircraft cleared to land on the same runway makes no sense. It should be clear for the aproach rwy4L. Then when all clear : clear to land rwy4L. BEFORE AIRCRAFT MINIMALS !!!!!!
@@germangallardowon’t work in the US with our traffic. Aircraft are squeezed together and the multiple landing clearances are given using anticipated separation. Only one A/C can be cleared for takeoff at a time though. This isn’t the issue though, it’s just coordination.
new guidelines aren't effective for at least 89 more days, and it won't solve the staffing issues.
@@Logan_S1211it could work. The same squeeze happens at a lot of foreign airports, but controllers give landing clearance on short final.
American RT is confusing as hell, none standard as per EASA and ICAO that the mere rest of the world follows. No wonder they have so many problems like this. It's an absolute mess.
From Swiss Heavy "Hi Tower, please call the cockpit. Let me know when you are ready for the number"!
i dont feel safe taking flight in/out the US
And the FAA's feckless response? - more rest for controllers. This was not a rest issue - it was a coordination/competence issue. How do you clear 3 aircraft to cross a runway while a 4th is cleared for takeoff?
Yep.. And then clear another one to land while he was still trying to get off the active runway. Surely part of being cleared for a landing is actually having the runway clear.... If I was Swiss, I would have told ATC to wait until I'M ready to get off the runway
You get this by letting Ground Freq clear aircraft to cross active runways. Should be something only Tower Freq for that runway can do.
@@rodneywallace2984 the incident was obviously a mistake on ATC's part. But if an aircraft is miles away, you can anticipate that Swiss will clear the runway. The majority of busy airports in the US are maximizing the use of all of their runways at any given point. Waiting until there is literally nothing on the runway is an inefficient use of the frequency, and had nothing to do with this incident.
....or maybe it was a rest issue that caused a coordination/competence issue. I wouldn't call the response feckless at all, are you saying more rest is bad?
They aren't hiring the best or brightest.
the Swiss pilot was really calm and collected. i mean they were probably not really fast so it wasn’t high stress but still. and clearing the Delta to land just after an incident like this seems foolhardy - after all, the entire system just unraveled and came crashing down. as ozjers have said, what if there would have been bad visibility….
I feel like we are days/weeks or at most months away from a massive disaster.
It was supposed to be LIFR yesterday. We got lucky the low ceilings and foggy rain missed NYC, or the pilots wouldn't have had visual of the runway during their roll.
Good job Swiss crew
Yeehawww. I landed into SFO the other day with 28L closed. What a mess. Aircraft crossing everywhere 😮
I don’t fly into JFK, but dude, these guys are tough to understand. Constant rushing. Lacking annunciation in their verbiage. Almost slurred instruction. I think it’s helpful to just slow the f down on the radios to alleviate multiple read backs. I hear it a lot in LA. Primarily with foreign carriers. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast…or something like that.
As much as it chafes me to compliment Delta, I think Delta 29 heavy is a great example of what I suggested above.
Tenerife disaster Part 2 just avoided.
I was literally just telling my friend it feels like this happens every couple of days
Big shout out to the Swiss air pilot for noticing and just stopping.
"Kennedy Tower, Possible controller deviation. I've got a number for you to call, when you're ready to copy."
I’m sure Kennedy Tower said we already know our number. We’ll have to call ourselves and write this one up.
I am surprised that two separate frequencies are used for the same stripe. In Zurich, the hub of Swiss, you have to switch to the tower frequency to get clearance to cross the 10-28 stripe. But I agree that JFK is a busy place.
HFS...that is scary stuff. Glad it didn't become a disaster.
When I saw "multiple", I assumed it's a mild clickbait and I expected 2 planes. This is bizarre.
Said all 5 pilots: “We called the number but it was busy ….”