The Neatest Machine You've Probably Never Heard Of (The Pantograph)
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
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Back in the seventies I worked at the InnerSpace waterbed factory. We had a ten place wood carving pantograph. It was large enough to carve headboards and half the length of a side rail at once (flip the side rail around and do the other end). Somebody would hand carve a bed set, and then it could be copied, carving into ten bed sets. It was like a giant router, and depending upon the tracer pin, it was possible to replicate fine details and deep carvings were possible after using larger bits and tracer pins to bulk hog out material. Yeah, cool, but usually set at one to one, the back force of the ten cutter heads to the tracing pin built really strong wrists and forearms on the operators who could only work for a few hours each.
Water beads! Whatever happened to them?
Thanks for commenting. I always wondered how they managed to pump out so many identical bed heads and such.
Correct name for “tracer pin” = stylus
@@wmweekendwarrior1166 they popped.
An ex-girlfriend's dad was the lead toolmaker at a GM tool & die plant. They had a toolmaker retiring with 40 years of service and the rest of the employees worked during break time and lunches to make a tiny model of a similar pantograph. It was about 10"x10" and fit inside a tiny display case as well. It was a surprise gift for the retiree.
My Dad was a Tool and Die Maker -- they are a special breed of people...
Machinists are a different breed but it's the best kind of crazy
They genetically modify tools now?
Love the pantograph! Our Deckel GK21 3D pantograph! ruclips.net/video/ZB5wfQv7loQ/видео.html
As a Navy trained machinist, the pantograph work was a daily task. Engraving plaques, signs, awesome machine.
I still have my Father's Pantograph! Not a metal one but like made out of yardsticks. In the '60s the big Christmas thing here in Atlanta was to make "Christmas Doors". Pop would pick a Christmas card, then enlarge the line art with the pantograph onto 1/8" Masonite, then paint the result. Took two panels to do it and weeks of work (weekends)...
That's the one I remembered as a kid! Thought it could be easy to make one.
Your recent “square…. Square space” intros get me every time :’)
Love the videos Will!
Ya know. I don't even care about blacksmithing. But I really respect you guys that can do it. I have been trying to learn because my father always wanted to make his own knife. So I am hoping to learn enough for him and I to make 2 of them together. He's 78 years old now, not much time left. But I am not sure i can justify the initial cost of the equipment to just make 2 knives. I mainly watch just your channel because I think you are such a great kid, who's parents did right. You give me hope for the young generation.
Rob, you should consider going to a class, where you will leave with finished knives and not need to tool up just for your project. There may be some near you, or you can travel to just the right class. Many blade smiths and shops teach them. ( And thanks, but God gets the credit ~ Will’s dad)
I love how you love and respect the old non-computerchip technologies. Saving these tools and using them is important. Besides, if we ever have a Carrington style event, I am sure you will be up and running long before others can even imagine. Now all you need is an old 1950s diesel generator and you'll be set!
I had one exactly the same - it's not just a pantograph - its a 3 D machine - we call it a Die sinker - you can release the third axis at the joint on the left - at the back of the joint you will see a tapered hole - you should have an iron straight edge with a tapered pin - I can show you a picture - don't unlock the Z axis without it !
My Dad had one of these, he was a jeweler in Scotland and used it to ingrave all manner of things, from the inside of rings to trophies and more. I spent many many hours on this machine. Wish I still had it.
They can be pretty efficient machine if you are good at using one. Back in the old days Gorton was one of the big names in Pantographs latter became Lars. In the showroom at Gorton in Wisconsin they had a straight pin under a huge magnifier lens that they engraved the lords prayer on the head of.
I work in a foundry at the mold department and we still have one of those, we primarily use it to change letters on smaller molds. Cncs are basically running 24/7 so they got little to no time..
Deckel pantographs were the bees knees of machine tools for engraving and a few other things . The 3D die sinker machines were absolutely amazing tools to work with, I used these in the seventies (19 that is), you could things with these that a CNC couldn't and probably still can;t.
I worked for an electrical company several years ago. We had a pantograph (much smaller than yours) that we used to engrave custom plastic signs for electrical enclosures. You know the "emergency stop"-label that is always present over the big red button. That kind of sign but for custom instructions. The bulk varieties we used to buy from a CNC-shop. But for one-of-a-kind products, this type of machine is very useful.
I worked in an engraving business a few years ago and they're still useful, especially for doing trophy cups.
Laser engravers have have made them obsolete for the likes of signs that you described, though. I must have made thousands of signs and labels for electrical and networking stuff.
Still use a engraving machine at jewelry store that is graving without power. It is really cool being able to engrave the back of a wristwatch that is domed. I spend a little time carving wooden vise jaws for it to hold strange jewelry. We also have a laser welder. Never buy box-chain necklaces. Never.
Well there is one guy that makes sure noone forgets this machine. If you've not found Matthias Wandel boy are you in for a treat! Probably one of the smartest guys around
LOL! I ran both Deckel pantographs, the KF and the GK, it's how I got started in the trade.
After I saw my first CNC machine I figured there was no future in what I was doing, so I bailed and after working in a blowmold shop, an aerospace shop, and a contract machine shop I ended up in the mold business and became a class "A" grinder hand in a laminate and connector mold shop where I stayed tillI retired.
I have exactly this machine in my shop in Australia. My uncle sold it to me. I was trying to find more information on its setup and use. Your video definitely helps. Thankyou Will
I'm 74 year's old and my memory isn't what it use to be. But in my earily twenties as a machinist. I was introduced to an old technology of a machine referred to as a "SCREW MACHINE". It was and assuming they are still around somewhere. The only machine capable of being able to using the various tooling's available. Making it self.
I run a machine shop that make parts for science experiments for the International Space Station. As an experienced machinist who started before CNC was really widespread and now uses CNC extensively, I think for some parts manual machining is faster. Especially if it’s some type of modification or rework. I’d love to have a pantograph. They are capable of very fine work, especially at the micro scale. Making a 20x size pattern gives you incredible detail on the small side
In France i find this machine every time i come in a knife shop were the seller is over 60.
Always trying to find such shops because of the history and the machines they have.
Will, your videos are the greatest! you are a real legend! Thank you for sharing your projects with us!
*Where AK50?*
Oops, wrong comments section.
Err… *Get to the chopper challenge chopper!*
I still use a Taylor Hobson pantograph at my place of work for engraving plaques for the funeral industry. Our machine is almost 60yrs old and is so reliable that some of our customers use us when their computerised machine fail.
I have 2 3D pantographs. A Deckel GK21 and an Alexander 3B. Both are nearly identical. I also have 2 Gorton 2D pantographs that do most of my engraving work. The 3D machines were the work horse of plastic injection mold making in years gone by. There are a lot of tricks to using the machines in 3D but easily learned if you do the research and use common sense. Now you need a single lip cutter grinder to complete the basic package.
This reminds me of the camera obscura used by artists like Leonardo da Vinci. It would reflect real life objects onto paper or canvas and allow the artist to replicate real subjects with great detail. Very cool, thanks Will!
The pantograph was invented about a century after Leonardo (1603 to 1605) by a famous Jesuit astronomer, Christoph Scheiner.
There is actually a slight resurgence of this machine concept in the woodworking community, a guy developed and marketed a type of pantograph with handheld routers which he named the panto-router and many woodworkers have found it to be a useful machine for doing very good fitting mortises and tennons as well as specialized joinery
Matthias Wandel
Of course i heard about them, hell i even used one as a machinist apprentice in the early 80ties.
I also used a planer back then, not many places had one of those left as they was replaced by milling machines..
I made a pantograph out of pvc pipe and framing nail pivots and a sharpie. Used it for a stripper silhouette in tile for the club called Strippers in Byron, GA. Went from a sheet of paper size to 9 feet long. Made of VCT tile and were in the floor of the club, now covered with LVP, but the front door still has her etched on it.
I ran "Deckel" 3D pantographs in the early 80's. Think moulds / patterns for cylinder heads, intake & exhaust manifolds, brake callipers, even beer bottles, salad dressing, ketchup, (when they were glass).
I was the "trainee" given the honour of adding the Budweiser Eagle to the neck of ~250 die sets (500 Eagles). To this day I can't express the carpal tunnel PAIN that followed !
I’ve been making coins and medallions for 37 years. Before CNCs (and we still use the today) these machines were the go too source for engraving logos and continuous forms into molds.
They are extremely accurate. We make patterns for most work etching magnesium. For 3d we sculpt in clay or plaster and pour an epoxy ending with the negative form which we need for a die.
If we make something like you maker mark we cut into plastic like you did and cut an intermediate pattern into plexiglass. That we use that for the pattern to cut into steel. We make the cutters removing the whole spindle and proceed with a Gordon cutter grinder made to do exactly that. (We also have Deckels). Therefore there is zero run out.
Up until the 90s when mold shops needed logo’s and engraved letters in their molds they would bring to our engraving shop. Lots of times we would engrave an electrode in carbon for die sinking with an EDM. These are extremely versatile and the quality of the work is second to none. But it’s sorta like having a record player.
The dies we make are still the best especially when it involves a portrait. We use excellent sculptures done by hand with about a 10 inch diameter. Our most common reduction sizes is 39mm or around 1.53 inches..
The new sculptures done on a computer look like Shrek. Take out a new coin and look at it. You can scan a sculpture and convert to g-code and uses Datron but that’s 400,000 bucks and you still need an operator and what did you gain?
I work at North American Mint. We have a website www.northamericanmint.com/
YOU HAVE TO THE OLD SCHOOL BEAST OF A TOOL LIKE THIS IT'S OLD SCHOOL BAD ASS AWSOME
I used this machine making electrodes for EDM machines. We manufactured belt buckles and shoe trims. That was way back in 2002. Loved those machines . You still had to make up cutters for small dimensions. It was an art form. Then came the cnc....
Yep. This is a cool machine. 35+ years ago, when I was 18, I worked at an engraving shop. We made embossing dies for cards and such. I operated, what I was told, a "pantomill". Makes sense. I don't remember the brand of the machine, but it was a little more complex than the one you have there. Maybe it was just a newer version. I don't remember it being belt driven.
Anyway, I was too young and probably too distracted by my passion for being a crazy punk rocker to appreciate how cool a job I had.
It was fun seeing this old machine.
To be pedantic, the pantograph is part of the machine. While it can do light milling, I believe the machine itself is normally called a “pantograph engraver”. They are obsolete for commercial work, but wonderful for hobbyists as you’ve discovered. Very useful for engraving, inlay work, making inverse press/branding stamps, and profiling.
When I worked at Santa Fe Stone Works knife company we used one of those pantographs to engrave the blades of certain knives.
We still used them in the Navy to the 2000's. Big plaques for walls, little ones for piping or picture frames. Cool shit
Use to use a pantograph for engraving dashboards for trucks back in the 70's. Pretty cool machines. Did require a steady hand. Thanks for sharing.
Hey Will, cool video, I work in Essex in the UK and at one of the parks there is a pantograph machine for in graving all the gates and signs unfortunately it doesn't get used as much now but what a fantastic machine it is. It's good to see you using all these old machines and bringing them all back to life!
I too am an Essex lad and still there, though officially in London but it was Essex when I was born, Chigwell in fact. What Park do you work in may I ask?
A nice bit of engineering from Munich (München).
When I started off in art and design, there were artists pantographs, with which you could enlarge or shrink the image. I believe they are still around, but have mainly been replaced by technology.
Very cool machine Will. The stuff @StefanGotteswinter used to do with his pantograph was friggen amazing..
Stefan sold his Deckel pantograph awhile ago but there are a few videos of him setting up that machine and using it. I think he made some new dials for a machine but that guy is smooth as silk when he’s working on projects. I know one video he explains how it works and how he sets it up, that would be a good video to watch. I wondered if anyone would bring Stefan Gotteswinter up.
Yup, I was kinda sad to see that machine go.. You would be hard pressed to find some one doing what he did with that machine on youtube now..
Yeah, make me feel older next time, Will. Of course, I know what a pantograph is and does. Have not touched one in 35 years, but yeah.
Same here
Me to 😂
Great machine, my friend Gilles who was a knifemaker, did have a deckel as well, amazing tool for precise machining and inclusions
Did a lot of electrical work in a large injection molding plant that had a tool & die shop. They ended up with two of these cool machines when they bought a smaller shop. They used it to engrave plastic injection molds they made. They did not use them every week so they sold them to make room for a new injection machine.
The genuine grin when you finally can justify keeping all the cool lil bits was worth watching the whole video for.😁
Seeing someone that happy is a nice bonus after learning a good bit about a cool old tool.
This will probably make you cry. My father who passed a few years ago purchased a Pantograph with six complete trays of type, not unlike the one in your video, back in the early eighties. Two years ago we had to clear his garage where it had been sitting for decades. First we tried to sell it with no luck. Then we tried to give it away with no luck. Finally I went out and hired a nine inch Metabo angle grinder and went at it until it was in small enough pieces that I could get into my car and take to the scrapyard. Got a tenner for it which probably didn’t even cover my fuel and cutting disks. Ain’t life grand!
Used to use one over 50yrs ago.Was a Perspex Fabricator also known as a sign maker.Used for cutting letters.
You’re 100% right, one direction is terrible.
PS. I wonder how many people will get that one. 👍 lmao
The same tracing point connected to a cutter on a lathe is called a "Rapidograph."
The last one I saw in use was by a custom rifle stock maker. He started with a wooden "Try" stock. Clay was added to the Try stock so it perfectly fit the customer.
The Try stock is then a placed between two points. As the pointer is run over the arch stock the cutter cuts out the shape into the turning wooden blank.
I have seen pictures of these machines that cut six M1 Garand stocks at one time.
Did my apprenticeship at a die sinking shop. We had 4 x Deckel GK21 3D Pantographs, and several 2D - Deckels and Taylor Hobsons
I used a pantograph to engrave letters for Name Tags and similar, that was back in the early 90's
I grew up watching my grandfather working one of these machines, he actually still works with it at 96 years old!
Man this is so cool! Your channel has some bits of “hand tool rescue” channel by showcasing all these old machines to us. Just incredibly cool how you’re just not about knife-making, but showing us all the history of old tools and machines!
technology from the 1800's that lived up until the digital age. Seen many pantograph type machines. Even as lately as the 1990's. That one used an optical sensor to follow drawn lines that guided six cutting torch heads. You could draw a 6" circle and it would cut 6 pulley blanks at a time. We were making aerial ladders for fire departments and needed the pulleys to guide cables. Same company had one that used a master blank cut from sheet, usually 1" thick or more, and a wheel would follow around the blank while the torches would cut the shapes from stock. Pantographs were very common duplicating devices.
Your segues into squarespace ad reads are awesome! Always make me smile, lol (maybe I'm a simple man? 🤔)
Love the explanation of odd or unique tools
There's a type of pantograph that copies aircraft propellers. I saw one that copies stair case spindles on the lathe.
Thanks for showing this one. Thanks for the vid.
I have a Gorton pantograph, The neatest piece of history is that the george gorton company used to send the lords prayer to prospective buyers as a sample...Engraved on the head of a pin.
They are extremely accurate machines when run correctly.
This is really cool. I think they used these to make the molds for old wargame miniatures. They made the models 3x larger than the final product so sculpting was easier, and then scaled it down as they carved the mold with one of these
The Bureau of Printing and Engraving uses an awesome pantograph that has one tracer and ten cutters to make the plates used for printing bills. The pantograph is used because an artist can make a larger, more precise, details far easier than small ones at scale. They used to use a similar process for making coin dies. The artist would make a plate sized relief to be traced. The pantograph would be used to reduce and invert what was cut into the dies. The die has to be inverted because the artists work looks like a coin but the die is used to create a coin, not be a coin. I think that have gone to CNC mills now for coins though.
I use to work at a tooling company back in the day.
We use one of these to sharpen profile cutters.
Another machine where you might see a pantographs is on a grinder, either a surface or a shaft grinder as an attachment. Used for profiling of the grinding wheel to form radiuses or some other detail into the wheel. Instead of a power driven milling cutter you have a stationary diamond dresser.
The old diaform.
@@michaelcripwell1724 Yep that's the one.
I have seen one for wood when I worked in a molding factory. Never seen one for metal before. Pretty neat.
You could even cut a few layers into a tight pattern Damascus then use a press or roller to bring the pattern back to flush. Then you could have damascus with an engraved scroll work into the pattern or your makers mark in the pattern rather than just engraved on top of it. It would definitely take some testing to get it right but it could be something cool. Also a magnetic plate for that machine would be sweet for engraving blades.
Congratulations to the Deckel GK!
I made my keychain on the trade school's pantograph 15 years ago. I loved that machine. Very fun to use.
I really appreciate the jankiness of this video. Too many videos are excessively perfect soo it's nice to see a bit of Realism.
I have a Alexander 3A Universal Diesinker that I got at a yard sale for 100 dollars. It came with the manual and a catalog. I don’t know what year it was made but the list price was 9,890.00 . In one machine shop I worked on a Gordon tracing mill. I wanted to use this machine to make model railroad stuff but I could not get the right ratio to scale down from a larger scale to copy to the scale I wanted. So it sits in my garage collecting rust. Talking about old machines I do have a 1953 ram head Bridgeport that I love.
Have fun
Be safe
Tracer mills are automatic machines that use a mechanical probe which operates hydraulic cylinders to make one or more copies of a master pattern. They're quite slow, loud, and use a lot of power for the hydraulic pump plus the one or more spindle motors. A tracer mill with three 2HP Bridgeport heads would be an electricity sucking beast.
But if you want one to tinker with, they tend to sell quite cheaply, even in working condition. IIRC some have been converted to CNC when the hydraulics aren't an integral part of the mill.
That is a really cool machine... slow or not.. great video!
Nit only heard of it but have used one. As a weapons tech in a military repair shop we were also tasked with making name tags with this very machine.
The US Mint used, maybe still uses a similiar machine to create coinage master dies. Theirs had a depth components. Super cool. Thanks for sharing this glimpse into yours.
I had one of them in an old room in my building at my last job. It was gathering dust.
I made a small one for use with a Dremel for woodworking (possibly based on Matthias Wandel's design, can't remember). Works well enough for guitar headstocks.
Yes place I worked used one to make coin dies. They created the sculpted coins, medals, decorative components that were to be stamped out on a press, etc., design at a large scale, in plaster of Paris, made a final version in a resin. Then someone sat for ages hand wiggling the pointer over the pattern as it cut the smaller die into steel.
Dude, when I was a kid, we all had toy pantographs. I am that old! 🤣🤣. Love the grown up version, though. 👍
i'm dating myself but I used that machine in HS shop class. Really like using it. Should be fun in your workshop. Stay safe and happy graving.
As far as I know, the GK is a copy pantograph mill. This means it can create not only 2D copies, but also 3D copies of an oddly shaped part.
Thank you Will. I'm a big fan of those old industrial machines and you learned me the existence of the pantograph. Awesome
No he did not, he Taught you the existence of the pantograph lol
Very neat machine. I have a cheap drafting pantograph, tried it once, maybe will find a use for it sometime.
As always I love the videos but I just gotta say you have the best segue into sponsors that I have ever seen on RUclips!
they still have there place, I work on one everyday. Lasers and CNC took away a lot of the work, but there are still jobs much easier and faster to do manually. they really are cool machines
I make stampa with a simular setup. Lake a makersmark for knifemakers and other typer of blacksmithing. I do 3d print the "original" and mill on the end of a piece of "silver Steel".
this is how they use to make the coin dies in the us treasury. They would have an artist carve the pattern and then they would use one of these to reduce it down to the size of a penny. one of the great benefits of this technology is the reduction of errors. if you make a 10 round engraving with minor scraps digs chips of errors they almost disappear when you telegraph it on to the smaller surface. super cool will thanks for the video.
That square space transition was sweet 👌 I used to have a version of this that was designed for.... OK, no way to make this sound tough.... ink 😅 It wasn't quite down to something you'd give a kid..... which was why the idea was lost on me. It was designed for more of a commercial market and I thing someone said that they were used for making logos and other features for people who created blueprints and other design work. I suppose there was aways that horrid moment when something needed reducing in size and no other way to accomplish the task. Kinda still hoping I never got rid of it as you could probably fix a dremal muti tool to it for doing similar projects to what you're doing. I think I'd stay clear of anything made of steel for a start. I'd love to see some of the things you come up with 😊👍👍👍👍
I would like to see more about this machine . Very interesting! Thanks!
A company named ZirkonZahn made a miniature version of this for the dental industry, it would mill zirconium oxide discs at 1 to 1.25 (25 percent bigger) so when you sintered the ceramic it would end up 1:1
Your description of the Pantograph had us breathless.
I for one was breathing... But My heart did flutter once and I think I gasped twice... Then I relaxed into a satisfied smile towards the end... :)
how cool
back in my training days, we had a desktop version in the shop, i engraved my name on everything i could find
if you don't have the room for a cnc or want just do simple things with it, it's perfect :)
Alec should look into finding one of these also with as much inlay work as he does, would definitely be fun watching you both learn to use the machine for your own purposes and I'm sure it'll save you both lots of time doing fine hand engraving.
You can make a reverse relief carving of the logo with graphite and use that for the stencil in electro etching
loving your work as ever chaps, some great action camerawork in bit about how the machine operated
Still have a Deckel in my shop. Has been replaced by CNC machines but just can’t part with it. Most are bought for scrap.
Stumbled here on accident. Well, I have on of these from my grandfathers Toolshop (and one ofg the bigger ones).
I have been thinking about throwing it out for quite a while now but did not get it over my heart.
If annyones interested I am in Germany, Northern Bavaria....
Ran a pantograph for 5 years doing nameplates etc. This was in the mid 80s. It was a old machine then but was awsome. The company bought a new machine but it was not a pinch on the old one! You can do some stuff if you think out of the box.
we had an old one in my high school when there were still drafting courses, there was a macintosh computer, we spent perhaps a half hour as a group using it. it wasn't that long ago, our school was just really far behind, though, yes, at the time, computers for drafting were so expensive that it was unlikely we'd graduate and get a job doing it, still a lot of paper drafting.
Damn, this takes me back. I used an almost identical model to this as an apprentice toolmaker in the early ‘90’s engraving injection moulding dies to make electrical components. Haven’t seen one since then.
Your issues with the copper were due to blunt/incorrect tool sharpening, and lack of coolant. Use a little kerosene on the job next time for a better result……
Edit: there were also true 3D pantographs where the stylus itself could move in 3 dimensions around a pattern. They were frequently used for finish machining of mould cores/cavities with irregular shapes not easily achieved with a manual mill. Might be something worth looking for too….
During the early 80's I worked in a factory making these and also hydraulicaly controlled 3D copy milling machines ( die sinkers) , they were just starting to get CNC milling machines for some of the production, but not investing in developing new machines themselves, at the time the 3D machines could do stuff CNC still couldn't but that didn't last .... If they still exist they are more of a contract manufacturing set up and don't actually make machine tools any more, certainly the original factory is now houses.
I know a guy in St.Petersburg who carves wakeboards with a pantograph he made from wood and two angle grinders.
I've been aware of these machines for a long time but never seen one used, Very cool! thank you sir.
OMG got me again with the ad lead in! Great job.
I've been watching Matthias Wendel for years, who does a lot of woodworking. He's got several videos where he uses a homemade pantograph.
These segues are a living chronicle into Will's spiral to eldrich madness.