Thank you so much for highlighting this. I have been preaching from the mountains how hard Sonic games are to make. It honestly pains me how much people complain about trivial things in Sonic games knowing why they exist in the first place. "I wanna play as Sonic, not Eggman in a mech!" "It's a 3D game, why is there 2D in it?" "Just make more levels as DLC, we would pay for it!" "Is it that hard to make decent levels? The level design is trash!" My brother in Christ. It does not matter what Sonic game it is. 3 & K, Shadow 05, 06, Colors, Forces, Mania, Frontiers, Generations, Superstars whatever. *_BLOOD, SWEAT, AND SO MANY TEARS_* went into that game you're playing. You can have you're criticisms, and you don't have to like everything they out out. But at the very least show some appreciation for Sonic Team instead of calling them incompetent. *MONTHS* went into just 10 minutes of that game. Thank you Sonic Team. Even with games like Forces or 06, I know you tried, and you tried damn hard. I appreciate and respect you for that.
Combined with the fact that SEGA gives them not a reasonable budget, the games are rushed and corners are cut, yeah no wonder why Sonic games get a negative reputation.
I generally agree with this. That being said, it's certainly fair to be angry about Forces for how blatant it is in its automation and lack of player input and Cyberspace's blatant stealing of level design from better games only to make them control like ass. Cyberspace did not have much effort put into it so I don't have any respect for that. Frontiers' open zone is ok but it's not really what I come to a Sonic game for so Cyberspace being good was sort of necessary for me to find myself returning to that game. Shadow Generations luckily does this better with great traditional Sonic levels while having a nice Open Zone/Hub area.
As a person trying to make a 2D Sonic Fangame, I can confirm that it isn't as easy as I thought it would have been. Level design for 2D platformers like Mario is easy, but as you stated, Sonic level design is more intricate and requires more thought put into it. Amazing video as always!
I'm happy you talked about this because I really do feel like a lot of people that give Sonic a hard time (which is fair criticism is always welcomed) they never talk about the caveats to Sonic's speed and how it affects level design in comparison to other platformers. Sonic just has that unique fast paced kind of arcade-like speed factor that leaves all the fans craving for more of that kind of gameplay. It bums me out a bit that some people just kinda write it off so easily without thinking of how it's done. Nonetheless great video!!
There is a reason why I like Sonic games more than any other platformer. Mostly, it's because of the good stories and great characterization, but part of it is the fast-paced gameplay. Other platformers feel so slow in comparison.
Theres a channel “Ajakes” that studies sonic level design pretty well and isnt long, its useful if one wants to make a sonic level or wants to learn about the overall flow of a good level
I spent too much time thinking you're talking about Pacific Abyss, the stage before that iirc. Which ALSO feels just as big, though harder to gauge because of all the verticality. The total of the stages in the game is probably like 3x BotW's size at least.
The sheer amount of modelling work that goes into these levels, vs the budget they were given for so long... Man, its no wonder they had such a rough time making quality experiences.
It's impressive how Shadow Generations blends Adventure and Boost era level design, though I still lean towards Adventure controls, length and pacing. I've had a theory for awhile that recreating stages like Green Forest and Sky Rail in Frontiers' cyberspace levels wasn't out of "laziness," or they could've just stuck with more Unleashed/gens-style ones. I think those Adventure 2 levels were included as a test to see if Adventure-era level design still holds up, if that kind of gameplay is still fun today, which like, of course it is! No d'uh! But apparently that was a question that needed answering on their end. And now they know
Finally someone speaking up about this , I genuinely think most people don't realise how much harder sonic levels are to make compared to most platformmers Like genuinely if more people realised this they would have a greater appreciation to the effort that goes in them It's easy to mock sonic team when things go wrong but they are capable of making amazing levels especially now that they are getting a bigger budget, learning stuff from us and trying their best to make the next mainline 3D Sonic Game truly special And if that's what happens let's all please appreciate the effort Sonic Team put into the levels they make
@@shaulov10 Forces seems like the best example of how wasteful Sonic Team can be with their development resources on the boost games. Look at how much detail is in the backgrounds of levels like Sunset Heights that the player simply boosts past and never touches. For a game where the development team was clearly struggling to create a satisfactory amount of content, it seems very inefficient to focus so much on the presentation and scale of the environments for individual levels. Some of that might be hindsight bias and/or an incomplete understanding of the specific issues they faced during development though, and Sega themselves were obviously a huge factor in how the game turned out as well, considering the small budget the game was given to begin with.
Counterpoint: The Environments are big but the level design itself is actually not very big. That is, levels take about 5 to 10 minutes to complete and replaying a level until all possible paths are explored might take an extra 20 minutes. Where 3D Mario gives you a 3D space to explore, almost all 3D Sonic games are designed more like rollercoasters where they offer high speed thrills with automated set piece moments and only trust the player with controlling Sonic for only a few moments. Even in Sonic Adventure, the camera in that game is designed to almost always be automatically pointing in the direction that Sonic needs to go so the player is never lost. Not that there isn't any exploration but the priority has always been to give players of any age or skill level an easy way to go fast.
I wouldn't say it's that easy. Sure, most levels can be completed in less then a minute, but it takes skill to do that. I tend to take 5-20 minutes per level because I'm not very skill at platformers. Saying it's about giving players easy wins isn't exactly accurate. The main goal is actually to give the players that thrill and excitement people get when speedrunning a game. Also, the moments when you don't control Sonic in a level are to give the players a bit of a break from constantly making a bunch of split-second decisions and reactions. The levels would wear you down after a while if you didn't have those breaks. These games are made so people of any skill level can enjoy them, which includes people like me who suck at platforming and have slow reaction times, they are also made for children. They design most of these games with the idea that this is someone's first video game in mind.
This is part of the reason why I’m looking forward to the next Open Zone game. An open world seems to be the best solution for this problem as a giant area with puzzles and platforming makes the most of Sonic’s abilities while extending the game time. They just haven’t quite cracked the code for it yet. Frontiers was a good first step, but hopefully, the next game improves on its shortcomings.
Sonic levels take alot to make, like i could easily design a normal sidescroller or 3d mario or smth, but sonic isnt slow, hes gotta go fast + hes gotta be fun but not slow but also cant have straight boring halls but also needs room for speed but also needs camera movement that feels fast, but he also needs good design and art direction in a level to look unique, and it also needs to feel like sonic, and etc……. Honestly only geniuses can make sonic levels, props to sonic team for cooking (aside from forces and lost world)
This is why I like Sonic level design more. It is like a roller coaster. And as long as the experience is fun I can deal with the jankiness with certain games and levels because i still enjoy them.
Sky Rail from SA2 really stands out to me as a really good short level because even though I can complete it in under a minute, there's still a lot expected from the player within that time span. A lot of precise jumps, spin dashes, rail tricks and balancing. It's not just a minute of boosting before you reach the end like Forces.
I always thought that fast gameplay + levels longer than 2 minutes must be horrible to develop for but actually seeing it presented like this is showing how insane it is having to come up with levels like these Also, now that I think about it, I think this indirectly explains why the HD Unleashed Werehog levels are so long. It's not just because the Werehog moves slower and more like a classic plattformer - it's probably also because the developers were so used to having to create humongous levels that they forgot that they didn't need to do that for the Werehog lmao (although granted, part of it is also just how well you can play him ig)
Knowing how Unleashed only had 2 years of development, it’s crazy how they even got 8 day levels at all. No wonder why they had to make the Werehog and Medals to bloat the game’s runtime Unleashed would probably only last 2 hours without the Werehog sections
I also used to make 2d sonic stages in classic sonic sim which helped me improve, I think the hardest part is definitely the visuals cuz of all the detail that goes into making a section you blast through
I remember making Sonic stages on Roblox studio and even if they're not nearly as complex as the real one, I did take into account multiple paths. When I was waiting to get Sonic Forces, I was making my own stages on Studio. Now that I have it, alongside Frontiers and S×S Gens I don't feel the need to LOL
Platforming, Speed and Exploration. ESSENTIAL for perfect Sonic level design. CD, Adventure 2, Generations are the best examples in my opinion of perfect level design.
Bro wtf these levels are so huge and it was probably even harder for Sonic team to make levels in shadow generations, cause they had to add a lot of spectacle as well as making the levels huge and well designed well good thing we have teams of like hundreds of people because if it was one person each game would probably take 20 years to come out😂😂
While that is true. I think forces was the bare minimum. It couldn’t have taken that long to make those levels. Most of them were about a minute with little actual challenge.
No we don't. We can acknowledge that Sonic games are hard to make while still acknowledging Forces was a disaster. The devs knew that they were making these levels way too automatic, that little input was required for the player and there was very little freedom given regarding alternate paths and ways of traversing a single path. If you're going to have a level just be a straight line, at least give the player multiple ways of traversing that straight line. SA2 does a great job at this with its more linear sections. Rails on each side of the pathway, light trails on the path that you can light dash along to get by faster, dash pads you need to move to hit, trick ramps, swinging bars & slopes to reach rewards or upper paths etc. When Forces does decide to give you some freedom, it's almost always in 2D and even then it's still usually very easy to stay at the top path and boost until you go back to 3D. The 3D sections of Sonic Forces are just nothing but boost to win. There are a few Forces levels that do make an effort but I'm not apologising for pointing out that Luminous Forest or Lost Valley are absolute garbage tier.
No we don't. They botched the games level design by putting 3 level designers with barely any experience from past games on a project with no lead designer supervision. No apologies is required for such a decision.
I'm happy somebidy nade a vudeo about this. I don't expect every sonic fan to really give this much thought but i think they should because...yeah, making a sonic level is hard if not impossible. I mean eveey boost game has some other gameplay style to accommodate it because the actual amount of full length levels they made are so small because its not an easy thing thing to do. Thats why sonic team has slowed sonic down recently and I think also why they've essentially revisited hib worlds in the style of open zone, it makes designing the game way way easier.
ive been saying it the longest. I've been developing fan games in 2D and even those are a nightmare to make when a huge level barely adds up to 40 seconds.
You are a ridiculously fast hedgehog that can do crazy stuff with physics. Of course, it is going to be hard to develop for. Shadow's abilities probably make it even more complicated.
I’ve been low key thinking of this after watching a similar video. I think Sonic levels should be less designed as a “platformer game” and more of a racing game but you can jump. Racing games do a good job of feeling speed, which is what you want from a sonic game, just add various routes and shortcuts.
I genuinely would not be mad if the next big title ditched the boost formula altogether in favour of a more methodical formula involving parkour or something. Suddenly, the levels are smaller but much more dense and the focus is on style and precision rather than speed and quick reaction.
That does sound fun, but Modern Sonic has built up an expectation via his speed. From 2008 to now, all mainline Sonic games (barring Lost World) have been boost games, and so practically everyone expects a certain play style. Changing up the formula entirely would mess with those expectations, and could prove to be unpopular (like Lost World); An easier development cycle doesn't matter if no one buys the game due to the changes. Sonic Team would need to test the waters for such a play style before committing, either via a side-story game or via a spin-off; If the reception from those games are amazing, then they would be free to implement it into a mainline game. Some suggestions of mine would be; Side-story game: a Sonic-Rush like game starring Silver, with the trick mechanic implemented alongside a style gauge. Spin-off game: A Free-running competitive game, or something like that. maybe with Team Babylon as characters, since we haven't had them in a game for a long time.
Ever wonder why we still don’t have a Sonic game in a similar vein to Super Mario Maker, LittleBigPlanet and Dreams where you create your own stages? Here’s your answer. Heck, even when I am recreating Classic Sonic levels in Super Mario Maker 2, I’m having to split up the levels using Warp Zones. They are that big. Having said that, I’m not saying that a game like this is impossible as I for one would love to see a Sonic game where you can create your own levels, it would be very tricky to make. Not just from the developers, but from the players too as unlike the aforementioned Super Mario Maker and I’ll even mention LittleBigPlanet, making Sonic stages would have a bit of a steep learning curve. And that’s when discussing the 2D levels.
Don't know if you know about its existence but, a fangame that aspires to be a 2D Sonic levels maker has been in development for a long time. It is called Sonic Studio, you can look it up :p
If you were to put Mario into a level that is as long as Sonic levels are, it would take Mario over 30 minutes to beat. Sonic goes through what would take Mario 30 minutes in less than two.
Ig open zone is the way to go since we get games that are on par with other platformers in terms of length while having a similar amount of effort as the linear 3d games
I do not envy the guys who make Sonic. Poor design choices or whatever, yeah you can address that and criticize that, but thinking about the mental load of designing levels that big for a rat that fast is just soul crushing
What are your thoughts about Sonic level design in an open zone 3D space? Level design in general is difficult, but I wonder if the open zone formula would actually reduce the time and intensity for the devs. 🤔
I agree that it’s hard as FUCK to create but the levels also go underutilized in my opinion. Sonic Dream Team I thought did an excellent job with the levels there because it forced you to replay the levels in such a way that it was a completely different experience in each mission. I wish Sonic Team would take ideas from Dream Team. For example, doing checkpoint missions where you have to hit checkpoints that kind force you into using lower routes or something would go a long way in lowering development time while still giving great replay value and content (as long as it’s not half assed)
If you thought making the levels in sonic games are hard,I think you’re not ready for how complicated and complex the level designs in the Spyro games are...
i think both of those games had different challenges when making games. but i think when it comes to sonic. just because of the pure speed of the character, there are way more challenges that go into making sonic levels
You missed some things that make these levels long enough Like the automation in the adventure games Sa1 had big levels but it took so long to design how a player would interact with everything so they used automation for spectacle look at windy vally they made the original big but due to how it went out it was cut they made a new one but instead of keeping the design aspects of that level they went heavy on automation in the final version Sa2 is not sa1 so they made the levels a pre boost kinda level design The boost level design in unleashed is really good in how well the difficulty is. if it weren't the levels would've been basic sa2 levels but now the levels are even more straight and tight so it will become more of a reaction game than what the classics or adventure 1 would let you do in a level These things have to be taken into consideration as well
I almost 3 month making my wariolike ( I am not made even 20 minutes of gameplay, only 2 levels )as I can say It's hard as duck , almost everything you say about "sonic game design challenge " I've seen big amount of new watiolikes ( first generation is pizza tower , antonball and antonblast) and I wanna say that developers can't beat the challenge of "warioland level design" and games don't feel right , and almost everyone forgot that warioland is famous by nonlinear level , now you can understand why anyone not created 3d warioland , even pizza tower 3d and antonblast 64 can't make gameplay "very 3D"
@@shaulov10 I wouldn't disagree, Heroes is one of the jankiest most unpolished Sonic games of all time. But at the same time, the jank is not that intrusive for me considering I'm very tolerable when it comes to the broken pieces of shit that are some Sonic games. The level design is better than the previous game but it drags on and repeats level sections sometimes as you said in the video and the controls are also very janky, but I can appreciate the combat and the platforming a lot.
Bro really made this essay to cope with his stage mod 😭 By the way, the length of stages aren't the only problems, the whole flow of stages with camera angles, cinematic sections, and intentional shortcuts for players to take honestly turns the whole process of level design on it's head (especially in the boost games). Like bro I've been developing an adventure styled game, and even with a team of 20, we only have 6 minutes worth of level done!!! IN HALF A YEAR! It really is tough fr, but hey that may just be a skill issue on my end lmfao
See, I'm trying to make a fangame and damn is it hard looking at games like Sa2, Shadow the hedgehog, and Sonic 06 and it is crazy how my little twst stage is only 1 min and 40 seconds 💀
Yeah you did not point this up, but theres a reason mario maker had success while theres a sonic 2d level editor that was somewhat free but servers was shutdown cuz it did not had enough engagement
I mean. To actually make the level creator wouldn’t be super difficult. I’m more so talking about actually making a level and the thought that goes into it
Answer me, what is the difference between egg Fortress and final Fortress, final Fortress has high difficulty and is 5:30 long, while egg Fortress has hard difficulty with enemies that you can't even see, and It's 6:50 long, what's the difference, I want to understand,ruclips.net/video/Vwf85L1RvDk/видео.htmlsi=9X6oP7CEMKZyauWtpula para o final
Well first of all. Final fortress is more like 8 minutes. And it is a straight line. It feels like a 2d level in 3d and spams enemies at you. While egg fortress is probably half that length and is a decent final level
You are really just proving the fact that sonic levels are quantity over quality unlike mario that actually has good level design 🤷🏻♂️ and not hallway boost sections. The boost formula should be removed or nerfed, sonic going that fast with a single button is the equivalent to giving mario a jet pack. People will continue to delude their selves like this is not true and wonder why mario odyssey out sold every 3d sonic game combined. Maybe if sonic gets his own super sonic maker just like mario's then people will realise how repetitive these levels are when all you need is one button to blizt through it rather than looking for ways to build momentum. At least do something like what advanced did where by you reach boost speed when you gained enough momentum, SXSG was good but not good enough for me to spend $60, i rather just waited for pc flash sales.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Sonic Team when they get 2 pennies and a rusty spoon to make 50 levels in a 70 hour game:
reasonable wages tbh
@@shaulov10 Jonathan Sega ass response
Finally someone reconize how difficult is making a sonic level
It ain't as hard as making a game though
once you start making a mod you really get an understanding.
Wait r u a sonic team developer?
It gets easier the more you do it
(Talking about classic sonic)
Thank you so much for highlighting this. I have been preaching from the mountains how hard Sonic games are to make. It honestly pains me how much people complain about trivial things in Sonic games knowing why they exist in the first place. "I wanna play as Sonic, not Eggman in a mech!" "It's a 3D game, why is there 2D in it?" "Just make more levels as DLC, we would pay for it!" "Is it that hard to make decent levels? The level design is trash!"
My brother in Christ. It does not matter what Sonic game it is. 3 & K, Shadow 05, 06, Colors, Forces, Mania, Frontiers, Generations, Superstars whatever. *_BLOOD, SWEAT, AND SO MANY TEARS_* went into that game you're playing. You can have you're criticisms, and you don't have to like everything they out out. But at the very least show some appreciation for Sonic Team instead of calling them incompetent. *MONTHS* went into just 10 minutes of that game.
Thank you Sonic Team. Even with games like Forces or 06, I know you tried, and you tried damn hard. I appreciate and respect you for that.
True. so much work goes into making these levels. that's why when we see a game like forces. we can really tell how lack luster it is
Ya and SEGAS higher ups dont tend to help 😭
@yoshihammerbro435 At all bro, 06 is a prime example 😭🙏
Combined with the fact that SEGA gives them not a reasonable budget, the games are rushed and corners are cut, yeah no wonder why Sonic games get a negative reputation.
I generally agree with this. That being said, it's certainly fair to be angry about Forces for how blatant it is in its automation and lack of player input and Cyberspace's blatant stealing of level design from better games only to make them control like ass. Cyberspace did not have much effort put into it so I don't have any respect for that. Frontiers' open zone is ok but it's not really what I come to a Sonic game for so Cyberspace being good was sort of necessary for me to find myself returning to that game. Shadow Generations luckily does this better with great traditional Sonic levels while having a nice Open Zone/Hub area.
Let's have a moment of silence for the people who worked on eggmanland
As a person trying to make a 2D Sonic Fangame, I can confirm that it isn't as easy as I thought it would have been. Level design for 2D platformers like Mario is easy, but as you stated, Sonic level design is more intricate and requires more thought put into it. Amazing video as always!
You're making a classic like game cool also I want you to check out relic ruins on my channel where I made the the whole level design 👍
100%.especially when looking at games like sonic 3 or unleashed. it gets crazy
I'm happy you talked about this because I really do feel like a lot of people that give Sonic a hard time (which is fair criticism is always welcomed) they never talk about the caveats to Sonic's speed and how it affects level design in comparison to other platformers. Sonic just has that unique fast paced kind of arcade-like speed factor that leaves all the fans craving for more of that kind of gameplay. It bums me out a bit that some people just kinda write it off so easily without thinking of how it's done. Nonetheless great video!!
There is a reason why I like Sonic games more than any other platformer. Mostly, it's because of the good stories and great characterization, but part of it is the fast-paced gameplay. Other platformers feel so slow in comparison.
Theres a channel “Ajakes” that studies sonic level design pretty well and isnt long, its useful if one wants to make a sonic level or wants to learn about the overall flow of a good level
Yeah, it’s honestly helped me understand all the little details that go into a levels design.
yeah i really like his vids
tbh from him i understood how much goes into the level design of these games like all of these details and stuff in 2 seconds it is insane
He is informative and funny.
Fun fact: utopia shelter from spark the electric jester 3 has a playable area larger than the entire map of the legend of Zelda breath of the wild.
wha- for an INDIE game?? 😭
I spent too much time thinking you're talking about Pacific Abyss, the stage before that iirc. Which ALSO feels just as big, though harder to gauge because of all the verticality.
The total of the stages in the game is probably like 3x BotW's size at least.
The sheer amount of modelling work that goes into these levels, vs the budget they were given for so long... Man, its no wonder they had such a rough time making quality experiences.
Tbf these guys probably have it down to a science at this point.
Good thing Sonic Team are Professionals who are Paid to think, breathe, live Sonic Level Design.
True. I still think that the fact they are able to make these levels so good is astounding
It's impressive how Shadow Generations blends Adventure and Boost era level design, though I still lean towards Adventure controls, length and pacing. I've had a theory for awhile that recreating stages like Green Forest and Sky Rail in Frontiers' cyberspace levels wasn't out of "laziness," or they could've just stuck with more Unleashed/gens-style ones. I think those Adventure 2 levels were included as a test to see if Adventure-era level design still holds up, if that kind of gameplay is still fun today, which like, of course it is! No d'uh! But apparently that was a question that needed answering on their end. And now they know
I moreso assumed it was a test how well boost gameplay translates to this kind of level design.
Finally someone speaking up about this , I genuinely think most people don't realise how much harder sonic levels are to make compared to most platformmers
Like genuinely if more people realised this they would have a greater appreciation to the effort that goes in them
It's easy to mock sonic team when things go wrong but they are capable of making amazing levels especially now that they are getting a bigger budget, learning stuff from us and trying their best to make the next mainline 3D Sonic Game truly special
And if that's what happens let's all please appreciate the effort Sonic Team put into the levels they make
100%. but then when we get a game like forces we know that they really didn't do much
@@shaulov10 Forces seems like the best example of how wasteful Sonic Team can be with their development resources on the boost games. Look at how much detail is in the backgrounds of levels like Sunset Heights that the player simply boosts past and never touches. For a game where the development team was clearly struggling to create a satisfactory amount of content, it seems very inefficient to focus so much on the presentation and scale of the environments for individual levels.
Some of that might be hindsight bias and/or an incomplete understanding of the specific issues they faced during development though, and Sega themselves were obviously a huge factor in how the game turned out as well, considering the small budget the game was given to begin with.
This is exactly why fan game creators & modders tell people to stop using their passion projects to diss SonicTeam or any deve studio.
6:17 and remember that Iizuka crunched last levels during development of Heroes
bro did basically the whole game on his own. bro almost died
so what did we learn…..
*SONIC GAMES ARE INDEED HARD TO MAKE*
TRUE
Games in general are hard to make
@@Kelps.mp4 Making a Mario game is relatively more simpler than making a Sonic game.
the background in most sonic games are also so detailed too and took them long ass time
and the automation and camera scripting, and all the cinematic stuff.
Counterpoint: The Environments are big but the level design itself is actually not very big. That is, levels take about 5 to 10 minutes to complete and replaying a level until all possible paths are explored might take an extra 20 minutes.
Where 3D Mario gives you a 3D space to explore, almost all 3D Sonic games are designed more like rollercoasters where they offer high speed thrills with automated set piece moments and only trust the player with controlling Sonic for only a few moments. Even in Sonic Adventure, the camera in that game is designed to almost always be automatically pointing in the direction that Sonic needs to go so the player is never lost. Not that there isn't any exploration but the priority has always been to give players of any age or skill level an easy way to go fast.
I wouldn't say it's that easy. Sure, most levels can be completed in less then a minute, but it takes skill to do that. I tend to take 5-20 minutes per level because I'm not very skill at platformers. Saying it's about giving players easy wins isn't exactly accurate. The main goal is actually to give the players that thrill and excitement people get when speedrunning a game.
Also, the moments when you don't control Sonic in a level are to give the players a bit of a break from constantly making a bunch of split-second decisions and reactions. The levels would wear you down after a while if you didn't have those breaks.
These games are made so people of any skill level can enjoy them, which includes people like me who suck at platforming and have slow reaction times, they are also made for children. They design most of these games with the idea that this is someone's first video game in mind.
This is part of the reason why I’m looking forward to the next Open Zone game. An open world seems to be the best solution for this problem as a giant area with puzzles and platforming makes the most of Sonic’s abilities while extending the game time.
They just haven’t quite cracked the code for it yet. Frontiers was a good first step, but hopefully, the next game improves on its shortcomings.
Bro that’s probably harder. They have to make a whole open world with the sonic level design mentality in mind
Sonic levels take alot to make, like i could easily design a normal sidescroller or 3d mario or smth, but sonic isnt slow, hes gotta go fast + hes gotta be fun but not slow but also cant have straight boring halls but also needs room for speed but also needs camera movement that feels fast, but he also needs good design and art direction in a level to look unique, and it also needs to feel like sonic, and etc…….
Honestly only geniuses can make sonic levels, props to sonic team for cooking (aside from forces and lost world)
This is why I like Sonic level design more. It is like a roller coaster. And as long as the experience is fun I can deal with the jankiness with certain games and levels because i still enjoy them.
I could never make a level mod, my patience is bad enough as it is, so massive props 👍
thanks, man. but yeah this is taking TOO LONG MAN
I feel like having short levels is fine, but the gameplay just needs to be good
yeah thats true. like the 2D levels in Shadow gens, there short but sweet
Sky Rail from SA2 really stands out to me as a really good short level because even though I can complete it in under a minute, there's still a lot expected from the player within that time span. A lot of precise jumps, spin dashes, rail tricks and balancing. It's not just a minute of boosting before you reach the end like Forces.
It’s boss of you to show just how much effort it takes to make these levels we enjoy blitzing through, good one on that👊
(And boss video)🤣
Shoutout to all the Sonic fangame creators. Y'all truly are talent individuals
i was literally just drawing a birds eye view of a sa2 physics based music plant level and realised how long these levels are!
The only thing hard rn is me watching this video
aight bro
AYO!? Lmao
🤨
I always thought that fast gameplay + levels longer than 2 minutes must be horrible to develop for but actually seeing it presented like this is showing how insane it is having to come up with levels like these
Also, now that I think about it, I think this indirectly explains why the HD Unleashed Werehog levels are so long. It's not just because the Werehog moves slower and more like a classic plattformer - it's probably also because the developers were so used to having to create humongous levels that they forgot that they didn't need to do that for the Werehog lmao (although granted, part of it is also just how well you can play him ig)
Knowing how Unleashed only had 2 years of development, it’s crazy how they even got 8 day levels at all. No wonder why they had to make the Werehog and Medals to bloat the game’s runtime
Unleashed would probably only last 2 hours without the Werehog sections
This is really a good insightful video.
Thanks for the upload.
W dude I saw you on I think on sonic paradox
Making a frontiers stage made me realise designing a 3d sonic stage is way harder than you’d think, took me many months just to make my layout
I also used to make 2d sonic stages in classic sonic sim which helped me improve, I think the hardest part is definitely the visuals cuz of all the detail that goes into making a section you blast through
I remember making Sonic stages on Roblox studio and even if they're not nearly as complex as the real one, I did take into account multiple paths.
When I was waiting to get Sonic Forces, I was making my own stages on Studio. Now that I have it, alongside Frontiers and S×S Gens I don't feel the need to LOL
Platforming, Speed and Exploration. ESSENTIAL for perfect Sonic level design. CD, Adventure 2, Generations are the best examples in my opinion of perfect level design.
Fun Fact: Speed Highway was built with Tails in mind and then Sonic's path was built on top of that.
You think making a mod is hard imagine being like me and wanting to make a whole game
bro i get it too. cause im making a game too bro (but don't tell no body)
2d is very easy to make levels for I've done multiple times
Bro wtf these levels are so huge and it was probably even harder for Sonic team to make levels in shadow generations, cause they had to add a lot of spectacle as well as making the levels huge and well designed well good thing we have teams of like hundreds of people because if it was one person each game would probably take 20 years to come out😂😂
Say what u want, but I think we owe the Forces devs a small apology. Sonic levels are hard as hell to develop.
While that is true. I think forces was the bare minimum. It couldn’t have taken that long to make those levels. Most of them were about a minute with little actual challenge.
No we don't. We can acknowledge that Sonic games are hard to make while still acknowledging Forces was a disaster. The devs knew that they were making these levels way too automatic, that little input was required for the player and there was very little freedom given regarding alternate paths and ways of traversing a single path. If you're going to have a level just be a straight line, at least give the player multiple ways of traversing that straight line. SA2 does a great job at this with its more linear sections. Rails on each side of the pathway, light trails on the path that you can light dash along to get by faster, dash pads you need to move to hit, trick ramps, swinging bars & slopes to reach rewards or upper paths etc. When Forces does decide to give you some freedom, it's almost always in 2D and even then it's still usually very easy to stay at the top path and boost until you go back to 3D. The 3D sections of Sonic Forces are just nothing but boost to win.
There are a few Forces levels that do make an effort but I'm not apologising for pointing out that Luminous Forest or Lost Valley are absolute garbage tier.
We do, but that's only because there were 3 level designers with no proper experience in Sonic level designs.
No we don't. They botched the games level design by putting 3 level designers with barely any experience from past games on a project with no lead designer supervision. No apologies is required for such a decision.
Nah. It's their job to live up to the series standard.
I'm happy somebidy nade a vudeo about this.
I don't expect every sonic fan to really give this much thought but i think they should because...yeah, making a sonic level is hard if not impossible.
I mean eveey boost game has some other gameplay style to accommodate it because the actual amount of full length levels they made are so small because its not an easy thing thing to do.
Thats why sonic team has slowed sonic down recently and I think also why they've essentially revisited hib worlds in the style of open zone, it makes designing the game way way easier.
Someone covering this topic makes me happy
ive been saying it the longest. I've been developing fan games in 2D and even those are a nightmare to make when a huge level barely adds up to 40 seconds.
That’s what I’m saying
And this is why rushing ANY Sonic game is an awful idea
Where are my Classic Sonic Simulator people at who also understood how hard it was to make Sonic levels?
It may also have to do with the fact that some people just don’t respect how much effort it takes to to make creative projects that they consume
You are a ridiculously fast hedgehog that can do crazy stuff with physics. Of course, it is going to be hard to develop for. Shadow's abilities probably make it even more complicated.
I’ve been low key thinking of this after watching a similar video.
I think Sonic levels should be less designed as a “platformer game” and more of a racing game but you can jump.
Racing games do a good job of feeling speed, which is what you want from a sonic game, just add various routes and shortcuts.
Well now I want to make a Sonic level
And that's just the levels, there's also the open zones
That’s for another time
This is probably why a lot of people want Sega to drop the boost formula, to increase the level quality
I mean idk. Shadow gens is a really good game
they put so much detail into the boost stages. you get to see that detail for less than a second.
Can confirm. It hard
what you mean by this?
@@shaulov10 sonic games are hard to make, i should know, i made one lol
as a guy who make a sonic fan game this is so true
Seeing the full models and layouts of most of these levels gives me a migraine.
yeah man. it gets mad confusing
@@shaulov10 Wish I had the ability to turn my own level ideas into a reality like you can though
I wonder how hard it is to make a sonic racing game
probably not as difficult but i guess it depends on how complex the tracks get
Let’s have this video make the rounds everywhere we can.
Honestly the levels is probably a factor to why they made Lost World after Generations.
Sonic levels are hard: Said literally everybody except Sonic Forces level design team.
I genuinely would not be mad if the next big title ditched the boost formula altogether in favour of a more methodical formula involving parkour or something. Suddenly, the levels are smaller but much more dense and the focus is on style and precision rather than speed and quick reaction.
That does sound fun, but Modern Sonic has built up an expectation via his speed. From 2008 to now, all mainline Sonic games (barring Lost World) have been boost games, and so practically everyone expects a certain play style.
Changing up the formula entirely would mess with those expectations, and could prove to be unpopular (like Lost World); An easier development cycle doesn't matter if no one buys the game due to the changes.
Sonic Team would need to test the waters for such a play style before committing, either via a side-story game or via a spin-off; If the reception from those games are amazing, then they would be free to implement it into a mainline game. Some suggestions of mine would be;
Side-story game: a Sonic-Rush like game starring Silver, with the trick mechanic implemented alongside a style gauge.
Spin-off game: A Free-running competitive game, or something like that. maybe with Team Babylon as characters, since we haven't had them in a game for a long time.
W thumbnailllllll
W RIGG. fr your a goat
Ever wonder why we still don’t have a Sonic game in a similar vein to Super Mario Maker, LittleBigPlanet and Dreams where you create your own stages? Here’s your answer. Heck, even when I am recreating Classic Sonic levels in Super Mario Maker 2, I’m having to split up the levels using Warp Zones. They are that big.
Having said that, I’m not saying that a game like this is impossible as I for one would love to see a Sonic game where you can create your own levels, it would be very tricky to make. Not just from the developers, but from the players too as unlike the aforementioned Super Mario Maker and I’ll even mention LittleBigPlanet, making Sonic stages would have a bit of a steep learning curve. And that’s when discussing the 2D levels.
Don't know if you know about its existence but, a fangame that aspires to be a 2D Sonic levels maker has been in development for a long time. It is called Sonic Studio, you can look it up :p
If you were to put Mario into a level that is as long as Sonic levels are, it would take Mario over 30 minutes to beat. Sonic goes through what would take Mario 30 minutes in less than two.
Ig open zone is the way to go since we get games that are on par with other platformers in terms of length while having a similar amount of effort as the linear 3d games
Open zone is the future
Sonic 06 had the best level design in 3d sonic straight up
Yeah. Sucks that the controls sucked and ruined the experience
I do not envy the guys who make Sonic. Poor design choices or whatever, yeah you can address that and criticize that, but thinking about the mental load of designing levels that big for a rat that fast is just soul crushing
Eggmanland: 🍺🗿
god i knew they had a hard time making sonic games but like.. jesus. these poor guys.
What are your thoughts about Sonic level design in an open zone 3D space? Level design in general is difficult, but I wonder if the open zone formula would actually reduce the time and intensity for the devs. 🤔
I wanna make a whole video on that later down the line. But that has the potential to be even harder to make
I agree that it’s hard as FUCK to create but the levels also go underutilized in my opinion. Sonic Dream Team I thought did an excellent job with the levels there because it forced you to replay the levels in such a way that it was a completely different experience in each mission. I wish Sonic Team would take ideas from Dream Team. For example, doing checkpoint missions where you have to hit checkpoints that kind force you into using lower routes or something would go a long way in lowering development time while still giving great replay value and content (as long as it’s not half assed)
where has this been all my life
Idk
10:12 discord kitten jumpscare
1:58 Uhhhhh, bro. U forgot to hide yr mouse.
whoopsie
And the plot thickens
Now i knew why they called it sonic mania...
If you thought making the levels in sonic games are hard,I think you’re not ready for how complicated and complex the level designs in the Spyro games are...
i think both of those games had different challenges when making games. but i think when it comes to sonic. just because of the pure speed of the character, there are way more challenges that go into making sonic levels
@ yeah and sonic levels are more layers than Mario levels,Kirby levels,and crash Bandicoot levels
Great video 👍
You missed some things that make these levels long enough
Like the automation in the adventure games
Sa1 had big levels but it took so long to design how a player would interact with everything so they used automation for spectacle look at windy vally they made the original big but due to how it went out it was cut they made a new one but instead of keeping the design aspects of that level they went heavy on automation in the final version
Sa2 is not sa1 so they made the levels a pre boost kinda level design
The boost level design in unleashed is really good in how well the difficulty is. if it weren't the levels would've been basic sa2 levels but now the levels are even more straight and tight so it will become more of a reaction game than what the classics or adventure 1 would let you do in a level
These things have to be taken into consideration as well
I almost 3 month making my wariolike ( I am not made even 20 minutes of gameplay, only 2 levels )as I can say It's hard as duck , almost everything you say about "sonic game design challenge " I've seen big amount of new watiolikes ( first generation is pizza tower , antonball and antonblast) and I wanna say that developers can't beat the challenge of "warioland level design" and games don't feel right , and almost everyone forgot that warioland is famous by nonlinear level , now you can understand why anyone not created 3d warioland , even pizza tower 3d and antonblast 64 can't make gameplay "very 3D"
Shaulov not slandering Heroes for 5 minutes (impossible)
not my fault the game is bad
@@shaulov10 I wouldn't disagree, Heroes is one of the jankiest most unpolished Sonic games of all time.
But at the same time, the jank is not that intrusive for me considering I'm very tolerable when it comes to the broken pieces of shit that are some Sonic games. The level design is better than the previous game but it drags on and repeats level sections sometimes as you said in the video and the controls are also very janky, but I can appreciate the combat and the platforming a lot.
Bro really made this essay to cope with his stage mod 😭
By the way, the length of stages aren't the only problems, the whole flow of stages with camera angles, cinematic sections, and intentional shortcuts for players to take honestly turns the whole process of level design on it's head (especially in the boost games). Like bro I've been developing an adventure styled game, and even with a team of 20, we only have 6 minutes worth of level done!!! IN HALF A YEAR! It really is tough fr, but hey that may just be a skill issue on my end lmfao
yeah it gets tough man
1:57 Bro forgot to hide his mouse? Rookie mistake, buddy.
Everybody unsubscribe
I unsubbed
yeah just delete my channel
See, I'm trying to make a fangame and damn is it hard looking at games like Sa2, Shadow the hedgehog, and Sonic 06 and it is crazy how my little twst stage is only 1 min and 40 seconds 💀
Bro ain't no way you put slycooper there 💀💀💀
🤫🤫
how did you make the mod? what software did you use?
You have to use the shadow gens level creator by lightning Wyvern. And you need to download blender. There’s a tutorial on his channel
@@shaulov10 thank you SO much! when i eventually get shadow gens on PC i will be sure to try it!!!
how do you mod shadow generations?
you have to use the Shadow Gens Level Creator: ruclips.net/video/ZQq9hYJGCfM/видео.html
i make 2d sonic levels on a game called classic sonic simulator on roblox, and it takes a few hours.
How good are they?
damm relly so like how the hell do the devs of the games get these good levels in two years like dammm
well to be fair. sonic games have much fewer levels than most platformers. its quality over quantity
Same
huh?
That looks cool
Yo, what about Shadow the Hedgehog?
Well... you need to ask needlemouse about that one
Yeah you did not point this up, but theres a reason mario maker had success while theres a sonic 2d level editor that was somewhat free but servers was shutdown cuz it did not had enough engagement
I mean. To actually make the level creator wouldn’t be super difficult. I’m more so talking about actually making a level and the thought that goes into it
@shaulov10 i did not say it was hard to make a level editor nor say its easy , but it did not a lot of fanmade levels, thats what i meant to say
What about making a frontiers island
That’s a whole challenge in of itself. But I wanna save that for it’s own video
@@shaulov10 ok
This video is sponsored by SEGA
You're not wrong
Well modders only have couple hrs a day, and dont get paid. while the devs get paid and prob work 40hrs a week 🤷🏻♂️
Answer me, what is the difference between egg Fortress and final Fortress, final Fortress has high difficulty and is 5:30 long, while egg Fortress has hard difficulty with enemies that you can't even see, and It's 6:50 long, what's the difference, I want to understand,ruclips.net/video/Vwf85L1RvDk/видео.htmlsi=9X6oP7CEMKZyauWtpula para o final
Well first of all. Final fortress is more like 8 minutes. And it is a straight line. It feels like a 2d level in 3d and spams enemies at you. While egg fortress is probably half that length and is a decent final level
Wait where's dream team?
sonic level designers after they quit and begin working at nintendo :🥱🥱🥱
2d is very easy to make levels for I've made a lot of levels in 2d
But are they good?
Heroes stages don’t take 10 minutes, they take 8 at the most and yes I’m including Team Dark
Yes they are
You are really just proving the fact that sonic levels are quantity over quality unlike mario that actually has good level design 🤷🏻♂️ and not hallway boost sections. The boost formula should be removed or nerfed, sonic going that fast with a single button is the equivalent to giving mario a jet pack. People will continue to delude their selves like this is not true and wonder why mario odyssey out sold every 3d sonic game combined. Maybe if sonic gets his own super sonic maker just like mario's then people will realise how repetitive these levels are when all you need is one button to blizt through it rather than looking for ways to build momentum. At least do something like what advanced did where by you reach boost speed when you gained enough momentum, SXSG was good but not good enough for me to spend $60, i rather just waited for pc flash sales.
You did not watch the video at all huh
@shaulov10 I did lol, what boost level is actually good ? Also sonic isn't even as fast as mach 1 stop kidding.