How Do Item Backfires ACTUALLY Work? | Smash Ultimate Item Trivia

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  • Опубликовано: 1 фев 2025

Комментарии • 128

  • @CanvasK
    @CanvasK Час назад +63

    I looked into SSBU's files and the Timer (codename "slow") appears to use weights for the chances. There's slow_normal_per (55.0), slow_hazure_per (2.0, presumably self), and slow_all_per (3.0, presumably all) giving a total of 60.0. So 55/60 (91.66%) for default, 2/60 (3.33%) for self, and 3/60 (5%) for all. Not too far off from your tests. Smash 4 appears to be the same except default is 50.0 instead of 55.0, making the backfires relatively more likely--can't actually tell which is self or all since Smash 4 didn't have labels for dataminers to grab, so that'd need to be tested at some point. Couldn't find the files for Brawl unfortunately.
    Lightning Bolt (codename "thunder") is similar with thunder_normal_per (56.0), thunder_hazure_per (3.0), thunder_giant_per (3.0). This makes any backfire around 9.67%, pretty close to your test. Smash 4 again has a different default of 50. I did find the file for Brawl but it is raw, unlabeled bytes so I can't give anything concrete there.
    Hammer (codename "hammer") has hammer_hazure_persent of 5.5 (likely just raw percent (persent)). Smash 4 is unlabeled so I can't tell which value in the spreadsheet it is, so either 5% or 7%. Can't find the Brawl file, but it probably wouldn't be useful.
    Golden Hammer (codename "goldenhammer") is a little unclear but I'm going to guess the backfire value is goldenhammer_pikopiko at 7.5 (likely just percent). Smash 4's spreadsheet is again unlabeled and Brawl is the same old.

    • @Casual_PKBeats
      @Casual_PKBeats  Час назад +15

      Your described Hammer odds definitely feel way more in line with what I was getting in my shorter, less-sophisticated tests, so that's really cool to hear! Very satisfying knowing my actual tests were really close to the real thing lol
      When you say that the timers use "weights" for the chances, do you mean character weights affect the results, or are you using that as a more technical, coding-typed term? (I'm very unfamiliar as you can probably tell lol)

    • @wingdinggaster6737
      @wingdinggaster6737 Час назад +11

      @@Casual_PKBeats they mean that instead of operating off a 1-100 scale like most chance-based effects, it operates off a 1-60 scale so each "point" is worth 10/6 as much

    • @CanvasK
      @CanvasK Час назад +4

      @@Casual_PKBeats I would've done similar testing myself even if I had the raw numbers. The code can say one thing but perhaps somewhere down the line it gets changed, so empirical testing is good to verify (in Melee I threw 100,000 Poke Balls to find the percents before I had the real weights (though I had the benefit of fast-forward, recording the memory value on change, and turbo buttons)).
      More so the latter, character weight doesn't affect these items. Instead of defining percents, a "weight" is used so that you can just make things relative to each other instead of recalculating the percents if they're changed in development (also avoids floating point issues and hoping it all adds to 100%). You can take the "weight" as the numerator and the "weighted sum" (sum of the weights) as the denominator. For Timer the weights are 55, 2, and 3 for a weighted sum of 60 (55+2+3) and just do 55/60, 2/60, and 3/60 to get percents.
      Imagine your holding a sweepstakes and people can buy a normal ticket or a gold ticket that is worth 100 normal tickets. The gold ticket has more "weight" than the normal ticket, and is thus more likely to be chosen. Unless everyone goes with the golden ticket so everyone has that 100 weight, making it no different from everyone getting a normal ticket.

    • @hi-i-am-atan
      @hi-i-am-atan Час назад

      @@Casual_PKBeats it's a probability term, referring to a method of handling chance as relative to the culminative probability of all possibilities, rather than as a percent
      an easy way to understand it is to imagine a bag of marbles. if there's 3 blue marble, 3 green marbles, and 5 red marbles, then the first two have a weight of 3 and the reds have a weight of 5, out of the bag's culminative weight of 3 + 3 + 5 = 11. this means you have a 3 out of 11 chance of pulling out a blue marble or a green marble and a 5 out of 11 chance of pulling out a red ... and that's it, you don't need to convert those ratios to percentages because the individual weight of each possibility _is_ the probability, and the system automatically adapts if you, say, dump 9 yellow marbles into the bag. the relative odds of getting the original 11 marbles goes down, but their weights remain the same, and the percent chance if needed can be quickly found by dividing those weights with the new culminative weight of 20
      and if it isn't clear why it's a useful way of doing things, well, imagine if i just said you had a 27% chance of pulling a blue marble, 27% chance for a green, and a 46% chance for a red. and then asked what chances you'd end up with if you pulled a green one. or what the odds are of pulling a red after adding 11 yellow marbles. it can also just make relative chances more intuitive to work with - to use an example from the original comment, having weights of 55, 2, and 3 for the timer possibilities means that for every 55 normal timers, you can expect around 5 backfires to occur, 2 self-slows and 3 omni-slows

    • @DolphinCube
      @DolphinCube 33 минуты назад

      Wait... The value for the gold hammer backfire is called "gold hammer_pikopiko"?!
      *My Sweet Passion starts playing while I stare at the distance*

  • @OlmiOP
    @OlmiOP 5 часов назад +178

    14:30 "Then there's pits stiff wrist swings which really gives off a classic NES vibe"
    Yea that's the point, that's how Pit swings the hammer in NES Kid Icarus. It's a neat reference!

    • @Moss_Dude
      @Moss_Dude 56 минут назад +5

      so THAT'S the reason for it, I didn't know there was a hammer in the original game so it always felt weird to me he's the only NES character with a retro animation for it

    • @lasercraft32
      @lasercraft32 17 минут назад +1

      Strange how Mario doesn't do anything like that, given the fact that the hammer is from the original Donkey Kong...

    • @MizunoKetsuban
      @MizunoKetsuban 17 минут назад +1

      @@Moss_Dude You see them relatively early in the game (enemies turn into them upon collecting a harp), but you can't actually use them until you reach a dungeon, which needless to say is not a simple task.

    • @OlmiOP
      @OlmiOP 12 минут назад

      @@lasercraft32 Probably a result of Mario being a Smash 64 character, they didn't really have many unique animations for it back then and Sakurai likes the legacy stuff to stay alive

    • @NipplesTheEnchilada2323
      @NipplesTheEnchilada2323 6 минут назад

      I was about to say that. Pit in the Game Boy Kid Icarus game also swings the hammer similarly, too.

  • @memeplatereal3918
    @memeplatereal3918 3 часа назад +46

    13:38 you can extend the song to its full length by having player two also grab a hammer and clashing both your and player two's hammers while the game is slowed

  • @averagestatpat
    @averagestatpat 2 часа назад +11

    13:45 About the golden hammer, you can actually make the song loop in its entirety twice. Set the training mode speed to its slowest, have the opponent be invincible via the Star Man item, then keep hitting the invincible opponent with the golden hammer. The hitlag makes the song last waaaay longer than usual. Give it a try! Cool video!

  • @EnharmonicYT
    @EnharmonicYT 3 часа назад +26

    Fun fact about lightning: Brawl had a glitch where if you were playing Zelda/Sheik and transformed right after getting afflicted by it, your size change would stay *permanent* until you lost your stock

  • @Bryce_the_Woomy_Boi
    @Bryce_the_Woomy_Boi 5 часов назад +113

    I think item backfires are neat, like the hammer head falling off or lighting shrinking you

    • @BigPro1123
      @BigPro1123 5 часов назад +4

      Didn’t expect to see you here. Hello!

    • @Bryce_the_Woomy_Boi
      @Bryce_the_Woomy_Boi 5 часов назад +3

      @BigPro1123 you never know where you'll end up seeing some people

  • @CrimsoniteSP
    @CrimsoniteSP 5 часов назад +63

    I feel like it's a big shame no one plays with items. It's actually one of the big things that separates Smash from EVERY fighting game. Even I'm guilty of really never playing with items.
    But if you go through the trouble of banning the RNG items, item play is just so saucy. Anywhere from the bullet bill combos showcased here to big brain traps you can prepare for later.

    • @AceJackWagon885
      @AceJackWagon885 2 часа назад +2

      I always crank that shit to the *max*

    • @velvetbutterfly
      @velvetbutterfly Час назад +1

      I like having containers on because they're weak enough, have some sauce, and randomly have lots of sauce

  • @buelerus9970
    @buelerus9970 2 часа назад +6

    In case of the Song being played during the golden hammer: you can extend the Play Duration even further by hitting other objects with it. The additional Time per hit always felt like the amount of hitstun inflicted with the hammer, but I dont know for sure.
    The Extension also applies to the hammer itself, so you can try staying inside a box-shaped arena and put a lot of objects inside, like enemies and soccer balls, and then check on how long it takes for the hammer to finally run out of time.

  • @lamergamer8211
    @lamergamer8211 5 часов назад +143

    That sans mii is absolutely disgusting. I love it

  • @Driff97
    @Driff97 5 часов назад +59

    10:34 And this is why the Ore Club is the most expensive Power in Smash Run

  • @apollorock3r244
    @apollorock3r244 3 часа назад +19

    14:15 I like how you didn’t mention that if you get the defective Hammer with King Dedede, even though he’s swinging his own hammer, it oddly doesn’t attack anyone even if he’s clearly using it. XD

  • @agoaj
    @agoaj 2 часа назад +5

    You don't have to commit to an air dodge, if you're in tumble you can Z drop the hammer.

  • @gearedworm
    @gearedworm 3 часа назад +6

    13:23 The hammer timer doesn't run while in hitlag, you can extend it by a lot by hitting a invulnerable player, such as one with the star efect. Convining this method and 1/4 speed you can hear the whole song multiple times.

  • @Dergy
    @Dergy 5 часов назад +18

    I've fiddled in Brawl's code before and found out that both backfires for Lightning have a 5% chance of happening each, meaning 10% chance of backfiring at all.
    I know it's a different game but I doubt they bothered doing much "item balancing" between games :3
    Edit: oh yeah your results are very close lol

  • @Boomblox5896
    @Boomblox5896 Час назад +2

    Competitive be darned, I love goofing around with items and funny stages. People need to embrace the funny side of Smash more often. I use items and default stage forms when I play with friends and we have a blast.

  • @Lulzigi
    @Lulzigi Час назад +2

    I would have liked to see some speculation on why some of the items go what they do. For example: Why does Lip's Stick produce a flower in the target's head? How is that a reference to its home game Panel de Pon?

  • @Melonposting
    @Melonposting Час назад +1

    15:11 Wallace hammering at the speed of sound

  • @glttched
    @glttched 4 часа назад +8

    the bullet bill item is actually so slept on, it can do DISGUSTING damage for absolutely no reason and with zero effort

  • @emile_jeanne
    @emile_jeanne 3 часа назад +4

    This video was a lot of fun! I knew about the home run bat's reflector but I hadn't seen/noticed R.O.B's animation yet it's really great!

  • @mxyzptplk
    @mxyzptplk 3 часа назад +3

    i played a Lot of casual smash bros but i never knew Lip's Stick and the Star Rod had ammo! i always just thought they were infinite since they weren't in the "Shooting" section

  • @TheOGRokma
    @TheOGRokma 5 часов назад +24

    Simple. You just x2 the damage they WOULD have dealt. No need to thank me for solving the question😎

  • @ayo.2022
    @ayo.2022 2 часа назад +2

    6:08 "Maybe don't use this item directly into the Hero that currently has Bounce active"
    Tell that to the 9mil GSP wifi player that's desperate to get their hands on the freshly-spawned Assist Trophy

  • @vossboss220
    @vossboss220 5 часов назад +8

    16:55 this upset me greatly

  • @NIX-FLIX
    @NIX-FLIX 4 часа назад +9

    In all my years of playing this game I had no idea about the squeaky hammer variant, and I always thought that the bat was sometimes arbitrary, but I must’ve been getting really lucky with the projectiles to get Insta KOs

  • @robinrai4973
    @robinrai4973 5 часов назад +10

    holy shit the special sword swing in melee is sick

  • @ExperienceExplosion
    @ExperienceExplosion 4 часа назад +5

    With the Golden Hammer's music. I remember in Smash 4 3DS, you could go in the frame by frame mode and the music for the hammer wouldn't pause, letting you hear the whole song. Not sure if it's in the Wii U version, but I remember doing that in Smash 3DS and it working. It was a long time ago though, so it may not even work lol

    • @RetroPlayer-gma
      @RetroPlayer-gma Час назад

      It's actually called 'Hold L' but i know what you mean

  • @akarien1395
    @akarien1395 3 часа назад +1

    For pit's hammer swiging animation ! It's actually a reference to his sprites in kid icarus, back on the nes, the poses are the same, especially in the air, and the "choppy" hammer swinging is like the hammer weapon, which was only available in dungeons, the swinging looked the exact same. Neat !!

  • @CrazyWeridoRH
    @CrazyWeridoRH 4 часа назад +2

    You should’ve shown off Wario’s bat swing animation. He throws the bat into his mouth and cranes his neck to swing

  • @miihto
    @miihto 3 часа назад +4

    for 150k special can we PRETTY PLEASE WITH A KIRBY ON TOP have a video on optimal or stylish ways to use every item. filthy casuals like me would eat that up 🥺

    • @stephenrichter8940
      @stephenrichter8940 2 часа назад

      In the meantime you might enjoy the WhyDo item breakers series

  • @asleepystar
    @asleepystar 2 часа назад +1

    i like how the some of the characters matches the item being talked about

  • @theodoric4270
    @theodoric4270 37 минут назад

    I'm glad you mentioned the instant homerun reflector. I've gotten wins online with that. That and the fact that you can z-drop or shield-drop the hammer if and only if you are tumbling must be the most obscure item facts out there.

  • @varietychan
    @varietychan 5 часов назад +10

    13:48 this wasn't the case in Brawl, where the song would continue

  • @CiromBreeze
    @CiromBreeze 5 часов назад +8

    You can't just jumpscare me with Rune Factory 3 music at the start like that

    • @nettalie4435
      @nettalie4435 3 часа назад +1

      Being jumpscared by rune factory music was absolutely not something i expected lol
      Really anyone actually knowing about rune factory is never something i expect

  • @toastr1255
    @toastr1255 4 часа назад +5

    15:08 This reminds me of that one video of Wallace (from Wallace and Gromit) swinging a hammer but looped and sped up

    • @bonedude666
      @bonedude666 3 часа назад +1

      Flat Earthers when they realize their balls are round

  • @Kinglamp
    @Kinglamp 5 часов назад +13

    3:19 You know what else is massive

  • @tinyclover3849
    @tinyclover3849 Час назад

    i've always loved the evil angle the star rod sends at when you throw it, it's been like that since melee. i have so many memories of cheese kills with my brothers from it.

  • @Zegaexiron
    @Zegaexiron 4 часа назад +2

    Somehow explaining the science behind the items makes them *more* chaotic. I love it.

  • @thunderstar7682
    @thunderstar7682 3 часа назад +4

    I'm so glad this vid has bullet bill in it cuz it makes me genuinely angry that no one does the kamikaze strat with it

  • @sototallycool
    @sototallycool 5 часов назад +8

    I just find the idea of swinging a stick that does absolutely nothing to be hilarious tbh

  • @IAWiseoldman
    @IAWiseoldman 2 часа назад +1

    game and watch hammer animation fucking cracks me up

  • @Sansyboi611
    @Sansyboi611 3 часа назад +1

    as someone who also takes the game seriously i actually love items and i hate how all my friends always complain when i have them on or pick any stage other than a battlefield or omega
    legit i just wanna play the game and have fun, and like actually respect the time and effort that the devs put in to make all this stuff in the first place, it just feels so boring and corporate without all the quirky stuff, and at the end of the day it's supposed to be a party game more than it is a fighting game, and that's what i like about it in the first place

  • @Wunduck
    @Wunduck 5 часов назад +2

    These videos are so underrated! :D
    Keep it up man.

  • @lancelot1685
    @lancelot1685 Час назад

    "Im just trying to entertain you while youre eating your dinner"
    Me, who just finished eating dinner while watching this video

  • @ADudeWithAChannel
    @ADudeWithAChannel 2 часа назад +1

    15:10 reminds me of that clip of wallace hammering

  • @waynemidnight7454
    @waynemidnight7454 4 часа назад +1

    How does R.O.B. spin like that without getting tangled up in the wires connecting his base to his back?

  • @Umi_______
    @Umi_______ 2 часа назад +1

    OH MY GOD THE RUNE FACTORY 3 MUSIC OMG OMG OMG OMG

  • @Blazingflare2000
    @Blazingflare2000 Час назад +1

    You missed one imo really important detail with the golden hammer.
    How long you are able to hover with it is directly tied to how fast you are able to mash A or B.
    It's really difficult to do at normal speed without a turbo controller, but at 1/2 or 1/4 speed you can easilly mash fast enough to hover for the entire duration of the golden hammer.

  • @omlett6482
    @omlett6482 3 часа назад

    15:10 Wallace hammering at the speed of light

  • @marcandrebelanger
    @marcandrebelanger 3 часа назад +1

    I wonder if all item with special effects are doubled or have the same amount of ammo if each Ice Climbers hold or take one at the same time? like if two lightning will be the same or if the power of the hammers are halved?

  • @aarontcl4558
    @aarontcl4558 4 часа назад +1

    it has made me sad ever since i noticed, beam sword swings having unique animations but not unique hitboxes... peach and rob have big overhead swings but the hitboxes dont anti air the sword just goes through people. im pretty sure it wasnt like that in melee or brawl but i can not test currently

  • @DexterMontkey
    @DexterMontkey 4 часа назад +1

    I had enough time in between episodes to watch all of pkbeats random facts videos

  • @yati426
    @yati426 3 часа назад +1

    4:55
    Are those SpongeBob shaped nuggets?

  • @Jason-pk1vd
    @Jason-pk1vd 3 часа назад +1

    how’d he know i was eating lunch???🧐

  • @DynamicLemons
    @DynamicLemons 3 часа назад

    I think it'd be a fun to have a video dedicated to trivia submissions from specifically modders, honestly. Would be interesting, compared to the usual "idk lmao this is just what it looks like" (no shade)

  • @cooolbigguy
    @cooolbigguy 2 часа назад +1

    How did you know I'm eating lunch?!?!?!?!?!?!? Great video tho, as always

  • @Thecoolguy643
    @Thecoolguy643 2 часа назад

    Glad someones asking the real questions

  • @Pseudo_Notfound
    @Pseudo_Notfound 4 часа назад +2

    17:08 Highlander gaming

  • @goodhelmetjunior3399
    @goodhelmetjunior3399 4 часа назад

    3:00 Beginning Cutscene of Awakening be like.

  • @youseftheh4869
    @youseftheh4869 5 часов назад +4

    *insert jumpscare*

  • @Velocifyer
    @Velocifyer 50 минут назад +1

    Kamikazi is a exploit for the exploit 360 where you drill a hole in a chip on the dvd drive to dissable read only, not a tactic in smash

  • @HocusPacus
    @HocusPacus 4 часа назад

    i love the reference on kid cuisine

  • @DylanKatt
    @DylanKatt Час назад

    You can do some funny stuff with the hammer! 😆

  • @travisowens8905
    @travisowens8905 3 часа назад

    if i remember correctly the slowdown effect changes luigi’s grabs and duck hunts smash attack damage. i can’t remember if it is just training mode or the slowing effect in general

  • @shiivee
    @shiivee 4 часа назад

    I actually modded the rate at wich the timer backfire for testing purpose in smash4 3ds, it is:
    -Player 3 (5,4%)
    -Opponent 50 (90,9%)
    -All 2 (3,6%)
    First number is the one stored in game
    These number are in the param file of data\animcmd\item\slow

  • @DaikoruArtwin
    @DaikoruArtwin Час назад

    I've actually been wondering if the state of the game can affect the odds of backfires. Like, is there more chance of backfiring if you have a significant lead? Or maybe the odds of backfiring get adjusted for every other item picked in the game, reducing the odds of two items backfiring back-to-back?

  • @yosefu5009
    @yosefu5009 2 часа назад +1

    12:00 reviewbrah rating the newest taco bell menu item

  • @shyacross9746
    @shyacross9746 2 часа назад

    3:02 Chrom can't get a break, even in smash 😭

  • @lilharm
    @lilharm 30 минут назад

    they really should’ve had the beam sword be boosted by spirits and other attack boosts
    give it something beyond being a sword

  • @thatonemeganium
    @thatonemeganium 4 часа назад

    I wonder if backfires of Timers and such have a smaller chance to happen if you are losing (like how smash balls are way harder to break if you are ahead, and way easier if you are behind in stocks)

  • @Skypatroller_BenCD
    @Skypatroller_BenCD 5 часов назад

    I didn't know the Golden hammer did have a backfire effect

  • @orangeaurora
    @orangeaurora 3 часа назад

    2:55 premonition cutscene in fire emblem awakening (real) (HD)

  • @krys3001
    @krys3001 3 часа назад

    @5:28 Wow! Super Mushroom (1.7x) and the backfire (2.4x) are different. What is the size of Hero's Hocus Pocus?

    • @Casual_PKBeats
      @Casual_PKBeats  3 часа назад +1

      Hero's Hocus Pocus uses the super mushroom effect, so it should be 1.7x too

    • @krys3001
      @krys3001 2 часа назад +1

      Tried it in Training Mode. Hocus Pocus is a Super Mushroom (1.7x). Clearly not as big as the Lightning Mega backfire.

  • @KairuHakubi
    @KairuHakubi 37 минут назад

    Aim the Killer at the GROUND. why didn't I think of that? I hate that thing. Always kills me.
    and I had no idea about the bat reflecting.

  • @megametexe5129
    @megametexe5129 4 часа назад

    Do you think you can quickly mention which series Each item is from if they are from one.

  • @stephenrichter8940
    @stephenrichter8940 2 часа назад

    Doesn't the Lip's Stick have a guaranteed chance to trip when thrown?

  • @Hisho30
    @Hisho30 24 минуты назад

    Does that mean we can legalize the Home Run Bat in competitive play?

  • @arcticfluffyfoxy
    @arcticfluffyfoxy 5 часов назад +1

    OOOOH
    YAY

  • @BrownCharlie1
    @BrownCharlie1 4 часа назад

    10:15 This looks really cursed and I hate it

  • @CWillis-nf8kp
    @CWillis-nf8kp 5 часов назад +1

    Just here to say im before this thing gets hit by bots if it does

  • @AveryvanSolkema
    @AveryvanSolkema 5 часов назад +1

    Under 5 minute gang

  • @NonisLuck
    @NonisLuck 2 часа назад

  • @dagoodboy6424
    @dagoodboy6424 2 минуты назад

    Items allways backfire on me Becouse they make me lose the game.

  • @thedude0000-b2j
    @thedude0000-b2j 5 часов назад

    i already knew all that lol

  • @summerwaterfallzz
    @summerwaterfallzz 5 часов назад +1

    first!!

  • @EGOyarzoH
    @EGOyarzoH 5 часов назад

    3 views on 9 seconds, delete the cha-