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Did Zodiark Temper The Ancients? (FFXIV Lore)
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- Опубликовано: 17 авг 2024
- Did Zodiark and Hydaelyn temper their followers in Final Fantasy XIV? Let's dive deeper into how tempering works, and the evidence for my answer we can find in the game.
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I'm convinced that the traveler's ward is the way that hydaelyn tempers people whether intentionally or no. It infuses the person receiving it with a dense amount of light aether and uses this density to prevent their aether from being overwhelmed and shifted, but that light aether infusion acts exactly as how the drowned are created with water aether. Ifrit himself thinks that you are already tempered by someone else for precisely this reason
Ifrit says in that cutscene "Lord of the Inferno lvl 20 scene #3":
"Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One. Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee... The truth of thine allegiance waxeth clear─thou art of the godless blessed's number. The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered."
And also Titan say in his cutscene "Lord of Crags lvl 34 scene #3:
"Ah...but I am not the first to suffer thy defiance. Thou didst bring Ifrit low.
Godless overdweller! Thy myriad heresies shall not go unpunished! Upon thee shall I wreak a terrible vengeance!"
Still the WOL has his own will unlike the other tempered, they don’t have their own will and are just slaves
When we first met Venat in Elpis, she says that she put on us a simple charm that protects one's aether from being corrupted. I don't think she bestows us with any particular dense aether.
If anything it's the primals that are unaware how the science of aether works. And assume you must be tempered as well.
The guy in the vid talks about how it's retconned that it was the echo that protected us from being tempered. I also don't think that is true. Eorzians just assumed it was the echo because Hydelyn gifted both blessings at the same time. It's a simple "correlation, not causation" fallacy.
@@pumpkingamebox do you remember the quest with nidhana where you are testing your blessing of light so it can be replicated in the scales? she explains how it prevents tempering during that mission. Specifically it adds a dense amount of aether so that any shifts will not cause you to go out of balance and be shifted irreversibly. Considering how much more aetherically dense the unsundered are, there is no reason that a large chunk of aether like that would have any negative effects on them
@@Christopher-eq1rn I don't remember, actually. Good stuff. But yeah, that makes sense. If they consider us not to be truly alive, then yeah, a dense pocket of aether might be a simple charm for them.
If FF14 team will ever give us an answer to whether the travelers ward can temper people. I bet they'll do it in the same way how they made the PF (azem's crystal summoning) and Limit Break (dynamis) cannon.
"Yes! The WoL is indeed tempered! That's why the story structure is linear in this linear game" lmao
My take:
Echo = Resistance to tempering. Lesser forms, like those from modern Primals, do not effect those with the Echo. However, the Echo alone is insufficient in the face of a power like Zodiark.
The Blessing of Light = Outright immunity to tempering of all levels.
Also, Hydaelyn, despite her immense power, made a conscious choice not to temper. A tempered mankind would be unable to learn the meaning of suffering, and would lose to Meteion.
yep
there was even the priest of Leviathan that possessed the Echo and still was tempered...
so yeah Echo gives you resistance non immunity
I don't think so. During the post-Shadowbringer patches we learn that Echo is a strong "memory of the soul" that taps into your life as an ancient (this is confirmed by waking up echo by recreation of final days) which allows you to hear the voice of Hydalyn. Then Hydelyn/Venat places the traveler's charm(a.k.a the blessing of light) which grants immunity to tempering, on everyone who can hear her
Correction, Loporrits say that even if you summon correctly, you may still feel "a little tug" if it's a being on Zodiark's scale. So neither Livingway nor Emet lied. Awesome video though!
This is correct, I forgot to mention the tug line. Thank you!
@@StoutHelm honestly i disagree. I think emet was vastly overstating the effect of the tempering. Like he makes it seem like the ascians are fanatical followers like the tempered beastribes but thats obviously not true
It's probably the difference of giving the being an explicit attack skill that does the tempering, and an aura that simply exudes the essence of the primal. A faucet vs a leaky pipe.
And to note - the Loporrits have a tendency to misjudge things. "A little tug" could be ununderestimating how potent its effect was. Plus, we see personality shifts in the three Unsundered - something Hades calls out in Elpis when the Emet-Selch we describe is a personality he rejects as his future
@@AdeptPaladin hmm that is a good observation, it would also explain why lahabrea is so vastly different from how he was in pandaemonium (or something happens in the last part)
As explained in Shadowbringers during the scene with the meteor shower above the Crystarium: once someone awakens to the Echo, they simultaneously hear Hydaelyn's call and are granted the Blessing of Light. So the two terms have historically been synonymous in practice. The fact that the Echo was attributed with the power to prevent tempering was due to characters at the time not understanding the distinction between the two. However, it may be possible that someone with an extremely powerful Echo could use that power alone to fend off tempering or overwhelm a primal and dominate it, as Zenos did.
the echo is literally a shadow of the power of the ancients. so why would you think the ancients didn't have a greater influence?
@@zeehero7280 if the Echo alone was enough to prevent tempering in the average case, then the Traveler's Ward that Hydaelyn grants would be pretty redundant
I was also wondering if it might be the case that Hydaelyn had always had an active heart in Venat. Zodiark used to have Elidibus, but Elidibus withdrew himself which may have had unintended consequences. In any event I feel like there's quite a bit of retcon involved, so I'm content not to let it ruin my enjoyment too much tempered as I am by FFXIV's story.
There’s a few story issues that don’t make total sense, but I’m like you, I can suspend disbelief for the stuff I do enjoy.
I agree with your take on this, and believe that Hydaelyn didn't temper, as free will was such a large part of Venat. This carried over into the many people she had chosen as her champions, all across the shards. They were all free to make their own choices. And honestly, game-wise, it would suck to think us, as the players, was under some sort of tempering the entire time.
I agree, I wouldn't like that.
Hydaelyn straight up lied. Multiple times
No need to temper when you are female and pretty. Slap on answers in the background and no matter how monstrous you are people will defend you!
I wouldn't say I still like what Hydaelyn did. The choices she made, the lies she did tell, even for some good reasons were still lies. Does not negate that.
But I do think the original motive was to offer people more choices to people and not just the option of Zodiark or bust.
Also, not sure if just baiting for clicks, but the fact that she is a "pretty woman" has nothing to do whatsoever with the storyline. I could say the same, with that logic, about Emet Selch. Commits atrocities, but he's pretty, so some is forgiven.
@@Mizra1985
The problem I have with Hydaelyn is all her possible reasons for sundering contradict each other.
For example if she truly wanted to give the Ancients an Option more than Zodiark she could simply tell them the truth behind the final days. I don't know how else Venat expected the Ancients to react post final days.
The people in the first sacrifice were suspended in purgatory inside Zodiark. Remember for the ancients joining the lifestream after accomplishing something great was considered a life fulfilled. To those who scarficed themselves to save the star to be rewarded with eternal damnation simply isn't fair.
Had they been warned before hand they could've just summoned Zodiark without needing to use the ancients as fuel. And then after which if the ancients didn't change boom sunder them.
In regards to the pretty lady bit. That was just a direct shot at Venat simps who im convinced at this point just "Temper" themselves.
Stout is a great example of this.
@@Beathemighty those are valid points and I can see your perspective on that.
It's been a while since I actually finished Endwalker, so my mind could be fuzzy on the fiber points.
And some people are fans of some things and some are fans of others. People can be fans of any character, even if you or I find them detestable, or at least problematic. (Ex: the love of Emet Selch, Hermes, or Zenos.) I think we can definitely both agree that the character of Venat has problems herself, along with the decisions she made.
Good conversation!
Another good example of someone being in close contact to Hydaelyn without tempering is Kryle.
One thing that links all of Vanats's chosen that we with meet or know their history is they seem to have awakened to the echo so perhaps she relies on this to commune without tempering.
Great point about Krile.
In Shadowbringers, Owen explains the dynamic of tempering as when a subject is exposed to the aether of an eikon, the subject's soul (which exists in a perfectly balanced elemental state) shifts towards the element of the eikon. As consequence the subject gains heightened affinity to magicks aligned with that element, among other effects (the example being heightened endurance for being shifted to earth aspect) and that these effects compound with repeated exposure. He goes on to explain that the subject's soul also becomes umbrally charged, aka more stagnant, as well which has the effect of diluting the sense of self and making them vulnerable to the will of the eikon.
I assume that the soul becoming more stagnant or umbrally charged is part of the faulty summoning methods taught by the Ascians.
However it is possible I believe, that primals being able to elementally shift someone's aetheric alignment is simply a natural effect that they possess.
The possibility of a shift of elemental alignment BUT without the overriding of a subject's will, would explain phenomena like Minfilia and Ryne's adeptness with light (being influenced by Hydaelyn). Summoners only being able to summon an egi of a primal by bathing in their aether upon the primal's death (elemental infusion without loss of will? "Capture its aetheric essence" as mentioned in the Summoner quest) as well as being told to "shift your aetheric energies to the desired element" when summoning egi could relate to this. Specifically perhaps a brief elemental shift during the summon (allowing as well for powerful attuned elemental magicks) before returning to equilibrium (as souls naturally do)? But alas I digress.
My point being that I think this is the manner in which the Ascians were "tempered". Their will was not overriden, but their souls were permanently shifted to darkness.
Permanently perhaps owing to the power of the eikon summoned, or due to repeated exposure. When collecting the Ascians' memory crystals in Amaurot, Altima's Pink Memory Crystal says: "I feel my soul turning. Slowly but irrevocably. And the power I wield begins to seem terrible... But this is right. It is right".
The shifting of the Ascians' souls to darkness would give them enhanced affinity to magicks associated with darkness, which they are fond of wielding. Permanent effects to their souls might also explain Gaia's affinity for dark magick in the Eden raid series.
Also at the beginning of the Rak'tika Greatwood, Emet-Selch's reply to Ryne (who asks him to fight with us) is: "Even shielded by the shadows of these boughs I feel the Light's presence most keenly. To accompany you is taxing enough. To fight is out of the question." His aversion or weakness in face of light, dark's opposing element, may be due to the affinity of his soul.
As mentioned, Emet-Selch does not lie, but the Ascians are ever manipulators, and he can omit. All of this is mere supposition, but both Livingway's and Emet-Selch's assertions can be true if Emet-Selch's admission to tempering was only referring to this elemental shift. Perhaps he expressly omitted the fact that this tempering did not include the overriding of wills either to not expose the Ascian's sabotage of summoning magicks, or to specifically sow doubt in Hydaelyn, painting her as a primal capable of tempering and overriding wills.
From the same dialogue of "The Best Way Out" quest, the lines that immediately follow those quoted are: "Of course, some would call us "evil" for it... and they would be fools. Though that is only to be expected, given their innate inability to conceive of the nature of the universe... But I believe I am repeating myself. Do you not trust me to speak honestly? Do you hope to catch me in a lie? Really. I have no need for deception - and even if I did, I assure you: you would find it quite indistinguishable from the truth."
If we're assuming Emet-Selch isn't lying but omitting, perhaps being assumed "evil" is simply because darkness itself is seen as evil, and the rest of the dialogue is mocking us for our lack of understanding regarding the elements and the nature of the soul.
Once again this is merely speculation to a degree, but this explanation makes the most sense and leaves the fewest contradictions in my mind. Could be that I forgot something or we get more information later that discredits this, but this is my current take on the situation.
Iirc when the Loporrits explained to us that the Ascians taught summoning wrong and that true summoning doesn’t cause tempering they also said something about primals on the level of Hydaelyn and Zodiark were so powerful that they would tempter but it was like a slight pull and not full on brainwashing.
I don’t remember if it was in the cutscene or optional dialogue though
This is true, they did mention a slight pull or tug.
I had dug up the other locs of Livingway's "little tug" line for some friends awhile back. None of them explicitly mention tempering (or Hydaelyn), but if you're at all interested in the differences, here they are. These are machine translated by DeepL. Personally, I think they align better with what Emet had told us, but I also think the EN is fine since IIRC Livingway has a habit of understating things for comedic effect.
JP: But the original creation magic has no such concept. I'm sure that if you create a primal on the scale of Zodiark, you would be pulled in, but on this scale, I don't think we have anything to worry about.
DE: But you can rest assured. Creation magic can do without that nasty addition. Besides, we're not summoning a second Zodiark, are we? So there is no need to worry, I can assure you. It will be fine!
FR: Fortunately, this danger does not exist if the original rituals are followed. Unless we're talking about powerful entities like Zordiark, of course, but ours will be much more modest.
Oh very interesting. While the other locs don’t specifically say it they do imply that summoning a primal on the scale of Zodiark or Hydaelyn would have a similar effect to tempering
You know I was thinking about the ward Venat placed on the WoL and how that seems to be a retcon of the echo keeping people safe from tempering right.
I’m not sure if the source material supports this, but in Shadowbringers when Elidibus awakens the echo en mass in people on Norvrandt they began to hear Hydaelyn’s call and iirc Elidibus said something about Hydaelyn constantly broadcasting her message but only echo people could pick it up. What if that broadcast is Hydaelyn imbuing the traveler’s ward. Would make it so only those with the echo could be protected from tempering while the echo itself not being what protects people
For me there's two kind of tempering, scholar in Eorzia just happen to not know the difference and put them in the same category
The first on is the mind control. It is near instantaneous and make you devout to the primal. If I had to theorize I'd say it tempers with you memory's Aether. The Echo protect from this kind of tempering and Alisaie is able to heal it with Angelo
The second is the bodily changed. This take a long time and change the balance of physical Aether in your body making you become a monster. Alisaie cannot heal that with Angelo and people with the Echo aren't immune to it but since it take time people with the Echo have a chance to get far away from the primal (either by fleeing or killing the primal) before any irreversible change to their Aether happen so unless they are chaining Primal killing like someone completing their wonderous tail as fast as possible they will never suffer from that second kind of tempering
The blessing of light/traveler's ward protect again that second kind of tempering. This is how our WoL was able to take so much light Aether during the event of ShB
This is also why Alisaie and Angelo can only save people who haven't transform into sin eater yet on the first. First it affect them mentally, making them less and less conscious and then after a while their physical Aether shift and they become sin eater. It's not exactly the same as primal tempering but I'm pretty confident the same Aetheric principal are at work here. This is why those with the could fight sin eater without fearing being transform and they were immune to the first step so they would never evolve into the second step, but only us could face lightwarden and not anybody with the echo
I love this - the game is very clear on how the degree of tempering can be modulated and that there is a scale with the physical effects as the point of no return after a critical mass of exposure - and with the Traveller's Ward explanation to the Blessing I was having to think of them as stacking mitigations - but if the Echo/Blessing is physical versus mental then everything fits neatly, such as Fordola's Ressonant and why the WoL's Blessing and not just any Echo-user for the Lightwarden problem.
You failed to mention the most important part of the debate, which is that even though Emet-Selch says the Ascians are tempered, he actively does things that are in contradiction with the will of Zodiark. With what we know of tempering it should be impossible for Emet-Selch to have, as he himself says, essentially invited his own destruction and the ruination of the Ascian's cause.
The Echo doesnt precent tempering, the Blessing of Light does. This was confirmed by Venat, when she refers to the "Blesing of Light" as a traveller's ward that prvents the corruption of one's own aether.I think what you mean when you say "retconned" was that the Echo and the Blessing used to be though of as one on the same, when in 5.2, we understand the Echo is only an awakening of the subject's latent abilities (as it only affects those who have the remnants of reborn ancient souls), most of which we dont fully understand yet.
You missed the part where Livingway says "well unless it's a very powerful primal like Zodiark then you might feel a small tug" So that could of been the tempering Emet-Selch was speaking about. It would also be on brand cause he has a big issue in conflating things, at least old ascian Emet-Selch. So to him that "tug" is exactly the same as the primals but we are too "weak and feable" to not answer to it's calls. Least that's how I imagine he would put it when he is in pure ego state.
This is true, but "small tug" and tempering are two different levels of control. I wouldn't consider them the same even if Emet was trying to talk down to us.
I also seem to remember in shadowbringers they made it a point to show that the Echo and the blessing of light were separate, and that getting the blessing of the light also awakened to the echo in the Warrior of light or something to that effect.
They did, but there is dialogue in Endwalker about how the Blessing of Light is defined, and that makes the distinction between what provides tempering immunity a little murky. It could be the echo, it could be the blessing, it could be both. Because why the WoL has the blessing, there are others who have shown an immunity to tempering that do not like. Mikoto, Krile, etc.
@@StoutHelm my understanding was that the echo is an ability that activates when somebody is exposed to something from the unsundered world such as the meteors in the sky and in the case of WoL, Krile, and Minfilia having the blessing of light cast on them.
This was already established as part of Heavensward - we lose the Blessing of Hydaelyn by Midgardsomr, but we still retain the Echo
Hear, Feel, Think...all things you can't truly do when you're tempered. If there were any words to an anti-tempering spell, those would be them.
I'm so glad you dove into this! I think you covered everything I would use as evidence for tempering, but as you mentioned the warriors of darkness turning away from Hydaelyn, I remembered meeting Hydaelyn on the boat in EW. We get two responses: the first is a cold questioning and the second is straight up saying the WoL does not trust her. I feel like that shows the WoL was swayed by Emet's and Ardbert's words, and could be used as evidence against tempering.
One could argue whether Hydaelyn is even important to the main story. While we get to know a little bit more due to the Word of the Mother explaining the connection between herself and Zodiark, we receive little information that is actually new. After the Warriors of Darkness disappear, that's it, until Shadowbringers. We meet Emet, who, on the outside, is a sad, lonely man who wants to live in a time that will no longer be. To live in the past is to lose sight of the present. Should I allow myself to take what he says as the absolute truth, even though he's already decided on how things need to be?
Although you say that the words of Emet and Ardbert could be used as evidence against tempering, I will argue against that reasoning. If you allow your thoughts to be overtaken by sentimentally alone while sacrificing all logic in the process, then you can be swayed to do and believe anything: become tempered.
Hear, Feel, Think. Hear the words of the people. Feel into them but take the information presented, think critically on it and discern the truth. It may be hiding in plain sight or obfuscated by a multitude of layers.
Talking about Primals There is something that Ramuh says that has still got me today 'thou are the Bringer of light but there is something more in thee'. What was it that he saw?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I know Emet is tempered, purely because he's a reasonable guy, hell, he's a genius, but aether somewhat follows the rules of conservation of energy. There is no way to bring more sacrifice for an even bigger reward. It's just not possible.
After having a bit of a think, maybe it's possible that the "tempering" aspect Emet alluded to happened over time. The first sacrifice was made with the confidence that it would be enough; the world will be restored and we can figure out how to get those souls back later. But it wasn't enough and the remaining ancients may need a little more persuading to lay down their souls for a plan that will work better than the last one did. If there is too much hesitation, why not add an aetheric nudge to bring back the Good Old Days, no matter the cost.
As for Hydaelyn tempering people, that seems to go against what Venat would have wanted. The sundered souls must learn to live with and overcome suffering, and that's not likely to happen with mindless thralls. The best she can do is give vague proverbs and prophecies about finding strength through adversity, then hope that the mortals remember the message long enough to work.
I don't think it'll ever be 100% clear if Zodiark tempers or not and I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of the story.
If we go with the take that Zodiark does indeed temper then it would make the Ascians unwitting victims of Zodiark. However the sheer length of time that the Ascians spent trying to rejoin the worlds and causing calamities most likely eclipses the amount of time Zodiark was ever a whole and conscious entity and since the council of Ancients were the ones who summoned him in the first place the responsibility is still on Emet Selch, Elidibus, Lahabrea, and the rest of the Ascian leadership.
Proving that Zodiark did or didn't wouldn't change who the antagonists are or them being guilty of the crimes they've committed.
The real question and good video worth making would be 'Is Emet Selch tempered?' Because Lahabrea's aether had diminished so much through body hopping that maybe he wasn't tempered at first but is now and Elidibus was Zodiark's heart so maybe is tempered by default. Emet Selch is said to be the most powerful ancient so if anyone could be resistant to tempering he would be.
He admits that he's tempered yet physically displays sadness and reluctance to strike Alisaie in the final confrontation, he hears out the Scions every time they argue with him and in his arguments to rebuke them he never once falls back on "Cause Zodiark wills it".
The only parts that point towards him being tempered is how quick he is to condemn the WoL when he/she couldn't contain the Lightwarden's aether. Almost relieved that he didn't have to pretend to be their ally any longer and the final quest when he moves the goalposts by proclaiming that the Final Days of Amaurot will be the WoL and Scion's "final" judgment only for them to triumph and he shows up and basically says "Nah didn't count" and wipes the floor with them. But even then these points are debatable.
You’re right, the answer doesn’t really have a great deal of impact on events as a whole. Probably why we will never get a solid answer, and that’s okay
Emet-Selch makes it pretty clear that yes they are tempered, in Shadowbringers.
An early theory was that we couldn't be tempered by other primals because Hydaelyn had already tempered us. But she doesn't make us into mindless slaves. Instead, she instructs us to Hear, Feel, and Think.
Traveler's ward is what Venat called it. The echo is the ability to remember. Venat also taught you a couple of abilities in your time on Elpis. Venat as known as the Traveler where as the Azem that preceded her was known as Shepard to the stars, from what we know from the short story the chief archivist gave Venat a crystal the held information on the cosmos, my question is when did Venat give her predecessor that crystal. Currently we have Azem's crystal, and Azem's relic, could it be that cosmos crystal is the crystal in Azem's relic (the key in DT)?
Venat identify that the warrior of light came from the future because of her spell, if venat temper the WoL and others that would mean temper was a common spell in the time of the ancients. Everything they made was temper to the ancient.
Edit: sorry for my English I still learning
Travelers Ward is like the opposite of tempering. Its a Temper that still allows for Free will as to speak. Yet Zodiark temper is the same as we have seen that creates those who are driven to a sorta Zealots state. Only difference is that they retain some cognitive though of saving the star. We had yet to see if the temper pushes one aether to a side that cause irreversible damages to the body tho.
Given the implications of the God Raids, we might get more answers when the final one releases.
I'm pretty sure this case is the same as The Twelve
Prayers and offerings of aether did fed her and The Twelve without tempering, for they doesn't corrupts one's aether.
She did that in full knowledge of future events.
She knows that giving people the free will while creating protective beings is controversial, but likewise she developed the Travelers Ward of her own
She is a scholar, and may have developed a means to fed on people's aether without tempering them
Her will is not absolute above others, but she clings only to "trust"
who do i believe, Livingway who has a penchant for being flippant about serious issues calling tempering a small tug, or Emet-Selch who never lies, only omits. Hmm
Both can be right. The rules are murky anyway.
I think it's a matter of degree. The primals summoned by the spells the Ascians taught men had the power to completely overwhelm will and to even mutate the followers. The Ancients did start solving all their problems with human sacrifice and that was a bit suspect, but just like Ardbert and crew were able to switch sides, Emet-Selch basically set himself up to die which would be against the will of his god, therefore he had free will still even if both of them loved their gods they were able to act against them. So I think Livingway was right, when it's done correctly we might feel a small tug, like squeeing over our goddess who straight up took it upon herself to commit genocide, but we're not mindless mutating zombies like what happens to people who use the spells taught to us by the Ascians.
It should be mentioned on the amount of tempering that can be done. Shiva seems to have done no tempering to those around her, while in the Amaalja beast tribe a woman was tempered many times to the point where she thought a rock was her baby to sacrificed to Ifrit. Then you have the Heavensward who were tempered enough to be absolutely loyal to the Archbishop and then (iirc) tempered again. So I believe there are various ways to tempering that hasn't been specifically touched upon.
So... a theroy of mine is that the Echo is the tempering on Hydalon. In doing so, she preys on the courage and good nature of the individual to give them visions to help push them further to her cause and boon them to use them further. Yes, this is all good things, dont get me wrong, however, you could say it is all manipulation of tempering to afford us sembelance of free will while in turn she is molding our scope of view and perspective to follow the path she so desires.
interesting that this show up in my recommendation 😄 what do u think about tempering after paendamoniom questline?
Sadly I am pretty sure they retconned themselves a few times over the Expansions while trying to keep it mostly making sense. Like I am pretty sure the original plan for Zodiark was supposed to be a standard evil god type of being with Hydaelyn being the polar opposite just because.
Luckily we still ended up with some pretty good choices
One thing that confuses me still even though this is off topic. It says Venats faction was used to create hydaelyn and they did battle and sundered the world into 14 including zodiark, however in the Elpis cutscene it shows venat sundering the world and from what it looks like, she used the zodiark faction unwillingly to create hydaelyn and sundered the world. im just really confused hearing Emets side of things then witnessing venat's side.
That cutscene isn't literal - its snippets, filled with symbolic representations of what happened
That scene was symbolic, they probably did it that way for budget constraints. What actually happened took place over likely years. The fight itself took days according to Emet-Selch.
First they sacrificed half their population, summoned Zodiark and stopped the final days, but the world was in ruin. So they decided to do another sacrifice, that's when Venat's faction rises, they are like hey, maybe we should just repair the world and not sacrifice half our population AGAIN. And they are like, nah, sounds like too much work, easier for half of us to just die. So they make another sacrifice and repair the world. But then the 25% of people left are sad cause 75% of their friends and family are gone, so they get the idea that they should build up life on the planet and when it's abundant to sacrifice it to bring back the 75% of the population sacrificed to Zodiark.
That's when the big fighting begins because Zodiark was supposed to be a temporary solution and now they've gone from willing sacrifices to mass murder as the solution to all their problems. She realizes the ancients don't have the fortitude to survive the test. They are just slamming on the morphine button with no plans to even try to do anything else. That's what makes her realize that she's going to have to sunder the world and force us to grow stronger by taking away our ability to solve all our problems by feeding living beings to our new Dark Daddy.
Zodiark was much more powerful than Hydaelyn, as he was made with way more human sacrifices, but he didn't have a pilot at the time because Elidibus had come to the planet to resolve the conflict between the Convocation and Venat's faction and Venat's a good fighter.
The Echo and the Blessing are linked, the only difference is where they come from. The Echo is innate to all people of Etheirys as it is merely a fragment of the Ancients power. The Blessing comes from Hydaelyn. She grants people the Blessing if you are able to hear her voice by awakening their Echo, usually by way of a memory of the Final Days.
But just because someone has the Echo and the Blessing doesn't mean they will be able to use it to efficiency. This is evident with Hythlodaeus and Erichthonius who are relatively weak in comparison to other Ancients. Not everyone can rise to greatness.
Also based on the information given, both the Echo and the Blessing protect people from tempering, but to a different degree. Our conversation with Emet-Selch and Tiamat help solidify this.
The Blessing of Light is just a shield. And if a Primal tries to exert influence, it's blocked, as was seen with Ifrit. In that case Hydaelyn never tempered us.
The Echo however, offers us mental fortitude and strengthened aether, preventing tempering on a mental level, not necessarily a physical one like the Blessing. Emet-Selch's claim of tempering with Zodiark's tug was because of his scale compared to the amount of aether the Ancients possessed. Comparatively, Tiamat was "tempered" by the summoning of Bahamat with a tug, because of the status she shared with Bahamut. But she still retained her senses. The degree of "servitude" played a part in the process.
The Echo then allows us to maintain our composure to the mental influence, not necessarily the aetherial "corruption". But just like any other malady, the corruption can heal over time, as long as there is not prolonged exposure. Think of it like getting surgery and waiting for it to heal before you have more.
Some of this is speculation, mostly the Echo bit, but it fits with all of the information available to us. Even the Resonate, the "artificial" Echo supports this. As it taps into one's mental capabilities, not necessarily their aether.
I think Zodiark was the 1st Primal to Temper! The Ascians who serve him knew this & they continued his work of Tempering lesser beings, at least in their eyes! I don't believe Hydaelyn Tempered the WOL or anyone else because of her whole "Hear, Feel, Think!" thing! I believe she thought & knew free will would win out in the end against the Tempered of Zodiark!
My theory is that the due to the particular nature of their respective aspects, tempering is caused by the "active/astral/darkness" alignment of Zodiark and the many other primals; Ifrit being "astral fire" actively moving the aspect of a person's aether towards fire-alignment. In inverse, Hydaelin and her alignment to "passivity/umbral/light" allows her not to affect change in a person's aether, and so the "fixed" primal summoning resulted in an "umbral fire" for the "fixed" Ifrit which does not cause tempering.
With most primals when they temper someone its is an all or nothing thing, but we are not actually told that that is how it is. In reality we are shown when Thoradin tempered his knights he did it with a light touch. So I was always of the mind that we are very very lightly tempered. Not enough that it would overtly affect our thought process, but enough that other tempering cannot take purchase. Tempering is presented as a staling of aether, but a shield is a fairly inflexible thing too. It is my belief that we need to call three things tempering for all truth we are given to make sense. When Zodiark initally protected the planet, all people had a shield baked into their aether, its presented as a shield on the planet but I believe it descended into the very people themselves. This v1 of tempering only kept their creation magics from running wild. After the sundering the asciens started teaching the flawed summoning technique and included the tempering system. Its not stated if this was original intention or accidential, regardless as it was modus operendai this was tempering v2. When Hydaelyn then started marking her champions she knew that she needed to protect them from being tempered however the Blessing of Light and the echo always happened at the same time so the protection that the WoL has always got pinned on one or the other. It makes more sense to it being an effect granted by BoL rather then echo given if everyone had the echo originally tempering the asciens would not be possible. (imo) So Hyd uses v3 of tempering something very close to the original v1 Zodiark variation. Well thats how I see it.
People are filled with many complex and competing desires that help inform our personalities and decisions. A primal is a being born from the manifestation of a single strong/shared desire. The tempering of today is destructive because it silences all other desires and replaces them with it's singular own desire thereby destroying the ego of the tempered.
Zodiark and Hydaelyn are the same and are beings brought forth as manifestations of a desire. They also temper their followers by "broadcasting" or instilling this desire to them (Livingway's "tug") but they do not erase the followers other desires. I picture it as an OCD compulsion. There is always a nagging thought in the back of your mind that guides your behavior towards the compulsion. With deliberate thought and opposing desires you can work around it or against it but it is always there guiding your thoughts back to the original compulsion.
The Ascians and Emet were indeed tempered. Zodiark was brought forth from a desire to sacrifice of themselves ". . .to restore things to the way they were! To reclaim the perfect paradise we once had!". This desire/compulsion immediately took root. They had "saved" the world from destruction but the desire was to restore things to the past "perfection" led to further sacrifice of the Ascians and then after Hydaelyns' intervention to continue to sacrifice the source and 13 reflections to satisfy the compulsion. Emet was always up until his death following this compulsion but because he still maintained his other desires alongside this he was also looking for another way in our WoL.
The WoL is also tempered. Hydaelyn was born from the desire is not so much to save the world but to preserve life and "In Darkness seek Joy, walk free and bear the light for others to follow.". In 5.1 Elidibus told us about how Hydaelyn's song is always present and those perceptive to it begin their Heroes Journey (tempered). Arbert and the warriors of darkness are also tempered by Hydaelyn and even though they may be following an Ascians plan in heavensward they are not following Zodiark. They are still trying to save the people of the First.
But I've rambled for too long so in summary: Everyone following a primal is tempered, it's just a matter of degrees! =P
My thoughts are that only Zodiark was powerful enough to temper. We know from the lopporits' dialogue that a primal on his scale would temper regardless of the method used (probably a flaw the modern Ascians exploited to corrupt the creation method for today's primals). But we also know that Hydalean, being formed from a significantly smaller sacrifice (compared to Zodiark's half the population) was the much weaker primal. She beat him by being specifically designed to sunder and shackle him, rather than having equal or more power. Therefore, I don't believe she had the requisite power to inadvertently temper. In fact, she may well be the only primal summoned until our starship voyage that never had the ability to temper anyone.
The problem with that theory is that it flies I'm the face of what we know of primals.
For example the ARR primals all managed (By design) to Temper a significant number of individuals. Despite them collectively being weaker than Hydaelyn.
Second unlike Zodiark they all had their own autonomy based on who summoned them.Thus If sheer might can inadvertently Temper an individual if there is no will behind the primal exactly what would Zodiark tell people to do? More so does that imply when there were 13 whole shards Hydaelyn tempered them all as will of the star?
Honestly the way I theorize it is that both Hydaelyn and Zodiark did Temper but to varying degrees. Zodiark tempered the ancients as Emet said, but I believe that given their nature as ancients they still retained a modicum of free will. As the unsundered do not act as mindless thralls like we see with modern tempering. Similar to how a being like Tiamat was tempered by Bahamut but was powerful enough that she could make decisions of her own free will such as remaining in her shackles. But still feared that she might be compelled to act out bahamut's will. The ancients still felt compelled to carry out his will but it's also important to remember that Zodiark's will was entirely the will of the ancients themselves. They wished for the world's salvation, therefore Zodiark will was that of salvation at ANY cost. This is obviously seen through Elidibus as he is Zodiark's heart and will.
The Elidibus we interact with is a sliver of his essence that descended from Zodiark, that's why he's so consumed with saving the star at the cost of his memories and his general identity, because it was lost when he was sacrificed to become Zodiark. It was a self fulfilling prophecy.
In Hydaelyn's case it's much more simple. As Venat is still the heart and will as well as having full knowledge of future events, imbues her followers with her blessing and awakening the echo within them. Maintaining their free will. Though as a primal on a similar scale to Zodiark, that "tug" is still present, just mitigated by her blessing.
I believe Zodiark at least tempers, and there is a visible tell. Pre-zodiark ancients have a very light blue tinged teleport, post zodiark ancients have a dark purple tinged teleport.
I actually believed that Hydaelyn "tempered" the WOL, but in a different way that does not controll the tempered one. I have no real evidence tho. And for Zodiark... who knows if he actually tempered the acians or if this is just a convenient explanation for them to rid themselfs of moral responsibility
2:58 Does anyone who how much time passed between the Final Days , and when Venat sundered the world? I always thought it happened all in one day, but that doesn't sound right...
6:01 wait, is Emet Selch saying that Zodiark tempered the world....and everyone was brainwashed??? Wow!
6:53 i really hope this is how 6.5 ends. We get to do a REAL trial with Zodiark at his prime. And we fight with Venat as Hydaelyn and help her Kill Zodiark!
The time between Final Days beginning and the sundering is undefined.
Venat/Hydaelyn is dead, we killed her and consumed the Mothercrystal
No. if you recall what Zenos said about the echo, he was still correct, and the ancients had it much stronger. Zodiark most likely did not, not in the way we think of it for sure.
I think the Convocation of Fourteen (except Azem) summoned Zodiark incorrectly, allowing the Dark Primal to temper them into Ascians. Venat and her faction likely learned of this and researched how to avoid summoning a powerful primal without being tempered. They accomplished this and used the new method of summoning when calling Hydaelyn for the first time. Venat, as Hydaelyn, taught the Lopporits the new and proper way of summoning. However, she didn't teach mortals the proper way as she needed to keep time on the correct course (Time Loop reasoning) to help birth the Scions of the Seventh Dawn and the rise of their Warrior of Light.
How much of "tempering" is really just religious devotion/coercion (Ishgardians) or Sunk Cost Fallacy (the Ascian Convocation Minus One)?
The echo being the protection against tempering was implied by scholars of the world, it was never proven to be true. On the contrary, there is evidence in ARR that the echo does not protect against tempering. In ARR patch 2.2, Through the Maeltrom, there is a Sahagin Priest who is using the echo, in fact a more powerful version of the echo. It is also implied that the priest is tempered and is why he is summoning Leviathen. We know that primals do not like or listen to people who have a protection against them. Thus the issue with Ifrit when he noticed he could not temper the WoL and noticed his protection. So either the Sahajin priest was protected by the Echo and the Leviathen was playing a 4D chess game until the priest became vulnerable through the use of the echo. Though there is no reason to believe at all that Leviathen is privy to echo information and how it works. Or the Sahajin priest was tempered and was also still using the Echo and the Echo provided no protection against tempering.
Then in Shadowbringers is that Emet confirms that the convocation was tempered in some fashion. We also have Elidibus/Ardbert confirming that the "Echo" was a fraction of the potential people had. So the ancients, with the access to the echo or even a more powerful version of it, were still tempered by Zodiark. Then in Shadowbringers the WoL, who is now like 8/14th the power of an ancient, can take on the full force of an entire planets strength of light into themselves. This is implying that a "half" an ancient has the potential to resist the strength of an entire planet. What this is all about is that the Ancients, if the echo was what was used to resist tempering, were more then powerful enough to resist the Zodiark tempering. This is not what happened though since the echo in of itself never prevented tempering from Zodiark. It was just the assumption that the echo prevent tempering.
IN the same vein of Emet-Selch not lying, neither does Livingway have any reason to lie either in her explanation of the two original Primals.
I don’t think Livingway would lie either, just felt it was necessary to point out the differences. I think people are much more likely to believe an antagonist would lie, so I clarified for Emet:
@@StoutHelm Understood.
Livingway also called the ship a tiny tiny toy boat. Her perspective of scale is not exactly one i'd put faith in.
I find it strange that the WOL came in a beam of light. And has no memory of who they are. It is implied that everyone teleported to the future. But what if that is not what happened. Why do so many people not remember what happened in the years leading from moon fall to the start of ARR. One of the earliest quests states most people do not remember. could there be a link or has it been so long since i did the quest.
My personal theory is that Hydaelyn DOES temper, much in the same way Zodiark does-- that "small tug" as mentioned in other comments. But it's a passive thing, not really a conscious choice, something she needs to mark with that Traveler's Brand to counteract.
SPOILERS FOR MYTHS OF THE REALM BELOW
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Based on what we've seen from Euphrosyne and how The Twelve are aspects of Hydaelyn she's split off, I think that THEY are the bits that her particular flavour of "tempering" leads to, these manufactured Gods-- little pieces of Hydaelyn that she's actively trying to push AWAY from herself so that she doesn't accidentally create Light-aspected Ascians or an equivalent. It also explains in part how The Twelve have some kind of presence in hugely disparate locations (Such as Azeyma/Oschon and Azim, Menphina/Nymeia and Nhaama, etc.) it's all Hydaelyn, it's just that she's made something to be worshipped in place of herself. But THAT'S JUST A THEORY~~
I think the reason zodiark tempers would be discovered in pandaemonium
The keywards Hesperos,Hegimone and Agtistis seemed to express differrnt symptoms of tempering because of Hephaistos's meddling
If hephaistos's actions are based on Athena's research maybe Zodiark was a concept made by athena when she intended for her and Lahabrea to discover godhood.Zodiark concept would be sealed away never to be heard of until the final days where either Lahabrea or his Hephaistos half dug it back up as a last resort
Regarding hydaelyn tho,she doesnt temper
Evident by the fact that throughout history there have been one warrior of light who betrayed hydaelyn.I dont remember his name but he sided with Ultima the high seraph
3:20 still at it I see.
I guess there was some random janitor in Ktsis not effected by Kairos or maybe she lied to herself in the short story about not telling anyone.
I could have sworn it was a translation thing and the assumption that every single person who has the echo automatically has the blessing of light when in reality they are two separate things
I don't believe the ancients were tempered. Because it works much better thematically for them to fight and oppose one another out of their own will rather than being manipulated.
Emet, Elidibus, and soon-to-be redeemed Lahabrea, being manipulated into committing genocide is boring af. Them having good moral justifications for genocide? Now that's interesting!
But good vid. One rarely adventures to poke at plot holes in a unanimously beloved, award-winning MMO. When something is beloved, it's hard not to overlook it's flaws.
Honestly i'm quite certain that what emet says about zodiark was a mistake. There's almost nothing that really suggests its true. Emet has definitely lied and omitted information, tho that would be an uncharacteristically direct one for him.
We know azem left the convocation, presumably during the summonings or a bit before. Emet doesn't really seem tempered at all, his actions speak wayy more about loneliness and missing his friends, fandaniel who would've also been tempered directly goes against zodiark and kills him.
Even hythlodaeus who was taken into zodiark helps us with fixing the wards, tho he does also beg for fandaniel not to take over zodiark. Tho i think thats more because he knows why zodiark was summoned. Still it'd be a bit weird for a tempered being to help in containing their primal
Even zodiark's literal heart elidibus seems to always be much more about his sense of duty to the ancients even if he can't remember them anymore, not to zodiark himself.
Livinway even directly states that a "primal on the level of zodiark might do a little tug" when properly summoned but even she seems quite convinced that it wouldn't really be a tempering.
We’ll have to agree to disagree here. Emet outright tells us he’s above lying to get what he wants, and at no point in the story does he actually lie to any of the characters he interacts with.
@@StoutHelm yeah you might be right, I meant more that I feel like the devs went back on it or forgot they put that line in
I personally think that Zodiark was more llikely to temer than Hydalyn. For one Zodiark is more powerful than Hydalyn. I think the tug as Livingway put it was to strong so it influenced the people who were part of the summoning. Hydalyn on the other had was made later and if Venat and her followers realized what Zodiark's infulence was doing then I can't see them making Hydalyn without making sure people didn't get tempered. Hence the Blessing of light which Venat had made before she became hydalyn. I'm thinking when those with the echo fist hear Hydalyn in order to make sure they are not influenced the Ward that Venat made is put on first so those she choose won't tall to any tempering no matter where it comes from assuming that it holds that is.
It's She vaa not shva
>Emet
>leader of the convocation
instantly untrustworthy video
@@StoutHelm From my understanding I don't think the Convocation had a "leader" per say? The closest I would guess would be Lahabrea as the Speaker of the Convocation. While I would maybe put Emet-Selch as the leader amongst the Ascians, I don't know of a source that states he is the leader of the Convocation in the Ancient days before the sundering. I could be wrong though if its outside of game material.
After the original comment, I dug and dug to try and find the source where I thought I had seen this, and I couldn’t find it. I was wrong, I own up to it.