I made this video in response to Not Just Bikes' video on GO Transit. Jason makes a lot of good points regarding North American commuter rail, and I wanted to expand on why I think GO's transformation is so great, and the fact that some of it is already here! Check out his video here if you haven't yet: ruclips.net/video/vxWjtpzCIfA/видео.html
I saw his video and thought it was so slanted and incomplete that it wasn't worthy of a response. GO Transit is a response to the suburbs and not the cause. Thanks.
@@RobinFyfe it might be a response to suburbs, but... that doesn't mean we in Europe do not have suburbs. In fact, most Europeans do not live in those "quaint, old, cute cities" but in suburbs. What I do think is Jason's (NJB) perspective has changed, as he also tells in his videos. And what is "Great for North America" is, let's face it, not so great in many other parts of the world. I do like the future for Toronto public transport though. But, like most people here will know, transit alone is not a silver bullet. Walkable / cyclable cities are probably even more important
@@vanGnaarA I'm from Scotland and most people were within walking distance of the railway station or connecting bus service. The nature of suburban sprawl in the Greater Toronto Area makes that impossible so thousands of people still need to drive. It's better if they drive to commuter GO Train stations than on the highways. Oh! The highways are totally blocked both ways during the commute.
Ok but the NJB isn't focused on the current transformation of GO, but the overall reality of the system and the history of why it is that way. And overall/historically, GO is a huge cager enabling device.
@@vanGnaarA 'Most Europeans live in suburbs' is maybe true, but the nature of those european suburbs (and their density) is more comparable to north-american city centers, not to their suburbs. Europe has very few 'large roads, only free-standing family homes on large plots' -suburbs, and mostly 'relatively high-density, row houses, interspersed appartment blocks and some free-standing houses'-suburbs, with walkable 'suburbs-sub-centers' with some shops and services.
I love this good-cop-bad-cop relationship you and Not Just Bikes are developing. It's awesome. One of you whips us Canadian transit lovers into a frothing rage, and then the other calms us down and gives us a reason for optimism. Both perspectives are great. Long may it continue!
Yes! I have subscribed both to RM Transit and Not Just Bikes for this very reason. Not Just Bikes offers constructive criticism and a viewpoint of how countries outside the North America manage things like urban planning and transit. RM transit talks about things in a more positive light and provides up to date information on transit in Canada.
It's also useful to understand that on several routes, GO uses trains during rush hours but switches to buses when the roads are not congested. So, what looks like only a few trips per day is actually all day service between the two. Where GO has to share rail lines, this is the best use of a limited resource.
That's how most lines used to work, but not anymore. The only remaining routes with peak-only train service are the Richmond Hill and Milton lines. The rest of the lines have all-day train service (every 15 minutes on Lakeshore West, Lakeshore East and UP Express, and every 60 minutes on Kitchener, Barrie and Stouffville). And those last three are also planned to gradually increase to every 15 minutes over the next few years.
@@OntarioTrafficMan I just added that point because the Not Just Bikes video and this one both talked about peak only service. (Plus I live nearest the Milton line.)
Presumably as track upgrades are ongoing then track sharing in Canada will be mitigated, it's amazing how much difference a relatively short piece of new track can improve and speed services up if only just allowing more separation, just some extra passing lines added around stations can make big practical differences. Our ancient UK system was originally all built as freight networks that allowed passenger trains on but are now used mostly as passenger lines with ever more standardised 125MPH rated track(the actual trains are capable of going faster but limiting them to 125MPH makes them last and last making them incredibly cost effective in the long term) which are quite well designed to allow for just enough separation to allow freight services to move through without slowing without coming into conflict with passenger traffic, at least round me, some areas the services are still a bit sketchy as in the north of England due to decades of chronic under investment on the standard commuter and inter city routes which needs to be sorted out. If the north was covered even with the service standards in my town which is not even on an inter city route the economy up north and the quality of life up there would be transformed.
Love to see these kind of “collabs” where you get two different angles on the same story. NJB highlights the current problems, but you provide a lot of future hope for the network! Excellent viewing from both of you.
GO was always an important boost to mobility for me, growing up in Hamilton without a car. It made day, or even afternoon, trips to Toronto convenient, with all the museums and other amenities that opened up.
I really enjoyed how you and Jason have bookended a common theme, in this case commuter rail, and between you demonstrated the complexities involved in delivering complex projects and systems. Do it again!
I just wanted to thank you for this. There is so much pessimism and negativity which often supersedes the helpful contributions of constructive criticism when it comes to transit in the GTHA. I’ve been lucky enough to travel in many parts of the world, and we don’t have it bad at all. If anything, in Toronto we have some of the best balance between car ownership and transit use which still provides comfortable alternatives to those who would like to choose. It is evident we are moving away from a car based society, but that takes time, and it’s not fair to expect everything to change in a year, to destroy every commuter parking lot and install bike lanes everywhere. Transit is more than just about moving people, it’s about moving the economy and providing the easiest and most convenient method of transport for those commuting into the city; not to appease the European transit mindset which many are currently far too eager to implement without being realistic.
The addition of all day service and eventually 4 trains/hour on GO lines is the biggest step to making it usable for more people. I was so happy to see that effort is being made to make that happen and not just leave the trains "sitting all day" (as NJB lamented)
The changes honestly remind me of what Jakarta did to its KRL commuter system, albeit that Jakarta's transformation seems to be more radical. It used to be very underutilized, not well maintained, and very much unsafe (with lots of accidents, roof surfers and all). But changes in early 2010s have made it into one of the best commuter/suburban rail systems I know of (especially compared to similar systems in North America). Routes and ticketing system were greatly simplified, more tracks were electrified, rolling stocks renewed, and train frequency increased almost to the standard of a metro system (up to 5 min headways in rush hours!). New stations were built, old stations were refurbished with much improved walkability, wayfinding, and integration with other modes of transport (especially the Transjakarta, which has become the longest BRT system in the world and still expanding). It's not an exaggeration to say that the transformation has led to a major urban revitalization across the city in general and a great increase in revenue of the national railways company (which operate the service). The passengers count actually tripled (!) between 2011 and 2019, and this was before recent expansions of Manggarai Central and other major stations in 2020-2021. If Jakarta KRL can do it in a relatively short amount of time, it's not impossible for GO Transit (which is already better than KRL was pre-modernisation) to do the same.
This was a bit of an oversimplification. The actual difference was that the US regulations said "the entire train can't crumple", versus the EU regulations said "the passenger compartment can't crumple". It's actually better to allow the ends of the car to crumple to reduce the forces on passengers during a crash, but doing so technically violates the (old) US regulations.
GO is great for tourism and recreation. I've taken my bicycle on GO Trains both as part of longer journey or with the express purpose to go to a certain station and cycle back. The weekend GO Train service to Niagara Falls has two cars with bicycle racks on the bottom. There's no extra charge to take your bicycle along.
@@RMTransit Right from the start of weekend GO Train service to Niagara Falls it has been basically a tourist train and bicycles have encouraged to be brought along. I do agree that need to promote recreational and tourist travel more.
13:00 Makes me remember when I went to Toronto back in 2012 and I really liked my experience on GO. As a short guy, the seats have a big legroom and were way more comfortable than the trains we had here.
It's taking time for me to show my parents that GO is evolving out of simply being a commuter train you only use to get downtown in the morning and come back at night. I think the transition will be much more obvious when the rolling stock changes to electric on the main lines
Oh for sure, changing rolling stock makes it really obvious to people. Maybe we should have waited until now to change the color scheme since there's a lot more all day service!
@@RMTransit Yeah, doing it all at once to signal a change that is already there would make sense. I guess they just wanted to do it the other way around for PR reasons haha
The first time I used GO for tourism specifically was two weeks ago to visit Unionville. It was a fun day trip but it sucked that I had to walk from the car-centric station and parking lot to the town centre even though the train passes through the centre. I wrote them later saying they should do weekend stops at the old central train station. I think GO should consider a bit more how it can reach different target riderships and/or work with BIAs near their stations to figure out needs as well as cross promote each other.
Hello from Northern Virginia! I get your gripe about parking at outlying stations. We have that on our VRE commuter stations and outlying Metro stations. But here it's a problem of really poor transit in the suburbs. Bus lines exist, but they run so infrequently and irregularly that they might as well not exist. And if you're stuck in the same traffic on a bus, most people would rather be stuck in traffic in their cars. In this region, the rail line is a way to bypass the worst of the commute (usually the I-66 or I-95 corridor).
Actually I-95 has lots and lots of people who avoid the traffic on buses rather than trains. Omniride and fairfax connector have a zillion bus routes on the 95 Express lanes which are all fast, efficient, and well used. As for I-66, the express lanes there will be completed in about a year, and the many omniride and fairfax connector buses operating there will be able to skip traffic as well. As for the infrequency and ineffectiveness of suburban buses here, I disagree. Buses here are all tracked and run on a schedule. Sure they may only pass only every 40 mins or so, but as long as you have access to the bustracker, you can just time your departure so you don't wait at all.
This is overall your VERY VERY BEST video you have ever produced. You are well informed and POSITIVE in your outlook. I thoroughly enjoy your INSIGHTFUL presentations. Greetings from Pickering.
The new Central Station planned in Kitchener is probably the best transit development I've ever seen from GO. Replacing the old station, which had minimal bus access and was kind of in the middle of nowhere, and putting the new one right in the middle of downtown next to the UW pharmacy building, and connecting to the LRT line. Just in time for them to start all-day two-way service as well, and a new station between Kitchener and Guelph in Breslau, which would connect to the Waterloo Region Airport (which right now is pretty much only accessible by car and some inconvenient buses).
It's actually not being planned by GO/Metrolinx, though. It's being planned by the Region of Waterloo with (minimal) assistance from Metrolinx. If Metrolinx had taken a more active role, the station would probably be built by now, because the Region was struggling with such a big project on their own.
Freight is extremely important, Passenger rail should be separated, but if they have to share that is fine, like how the Seikan Tunnel in Japan is shared, but we shouldn't expect perfect service. Also your points on Busses are good, Even Europe and Japan use loads of busses, even with great trains.
@@alexanderip1003 yes they pollute, but newer buses are much less dirty than older busses. And if it takes hundreds of thousands of cars off the road every day, then that is alot cleaner than hundreds of thousands of private vehicles. Plus it relieves congestion. Hopefully, newer electric buses, powered by Ontario's nuclear and hydro power, will come one day. This will be excellent, especially with the Electrification of the GO network.
2:45 One important note that also applies to the US is that this number usually refers to tonnage and miles transported, not the proportion of goods transported by railways as a whole. By far the most tonnage on US and Canadian railways consists of oil, coal and ore, which weigh a lot and often get moved thousands of miles. In Europe such goods are generally transported over much shorter distances and predominantly by pipelines and boats/barges respectively. If you look at the freight share of intermodal traffic (which is more representative), they only have a slight advantage, which gets balanced out by the significant amount of goods that is transported on rivers and canals in Europe.
@@RMTransit It does, but the proportion of intermodal traffic that gets moved by truck is surprisingly similar to that in the Americas (albeit higher). The main difference is that as a proportion of all freight transported intermodal traffic is much more significant in mainland Europe than in the US and Canada.
Europe has one thing a lot of other parts of the world don't: wide, navigable rivers. This allows for a lot of aggregate goods to be transported by barge.
One thing that would be benefical in the long-term is electrification of the freight railroads. The Milwaukee Road proved it was possible 100 years ago, if we could adopt a standard for North America the savings in fuel and greenhouse gasses would be phenominal...
The radial intersuburban bus services you mentioned is exactly what I wish the MBTA had for the rt-128 corridor. So much of Greater Boston is developed around this highway that is only really accessible with a car. It seems important enough that it should be served with transit as well. Personally I have wanted this just because driving that highway is so stressful at times but also I just wish transit was an option for going to work.
Excuse me sir, but Pickering’s GO station is connected to an office complex, shopping and civic district, and is currently becoming a major intensification spot. Loved the video buddy, keep them coming :)
I was puzzled about that particular dig at Pickering, as well. In addition to your points, there is also a large older subdivision within easy walking distance. Pickering GO may not be as pedestrian-focused as many others, but if he wanted to point out examples of stations that are truly in the middle of nothing but industrial wasteland, all three of the next stations (Ajax, Whitby, and Oshawa) fit that description far better.
@@RMTransit I get that you wanted to insert a joke at that point in your script, and Pickering as a whole has earned the reputation of "middle of nowhere" (particularly since there is no discernable downtown in the entire city). But compared to the other Durham Region cities, its transit hub is actually as reasonably located as it possibly could be. Next time, save the Pickering abuse for when it earns it. :-)
Hi, I really like the positive view you have on GO Transit, of course, there are a lot of negatives, but good things are coming on the way, a change that is overseen in this video is the buying of Bombardier by Alstom (I'm currently working for Alstom), and with this change production of the new fleet should ramp up when all the projects are properly set.
I'm now working for Alstom (Bombardier) and from where I'm standing... it's not so great. Hopefully more changes will come on this end and people might stop leaving.
The freight connection is such an important point and it also explains why many stations (esp. Lakeshore East Line) are located in industrial centres, not walkable areas like they are in Europe. We of course can't change the layout of the cities, but we can adapt! And ngl, Metrolinx has been making big moves for us.
My partner and I are trying to reduce our reliance on our car, and I came across this video as I was planning a trip to Toronto from where we live in Meaford. We'll be taking the train from Barrie South GO to Union Station, but we still need to drive nearly 100 km to park our car overnight in Barrie at one of those parking lots you mentioned. It's a shame there isn't better transit infrastructure for smaller communities outside the GTA, but we're looking forward to our trip, and to learning more about public transit, none-the-less.
5:58 Yeah, why not have all day service with a 2tph on the Milton and Richmond Hill lines? I really like Go. I love their commitment to improving the railway system, including faster trains, electrification (therefore pollution reduced even further) and station refurbishments!
@@RMTransit ahh, those stupid freight companies. Don't get me wrong, freight trains are essential, but passenger service is also essential. In fact, I'd say it gets even more important than freight imo
@@gabrielstravels Whether or not it needs to be is a different question. The reality is Canada is one of the world leaders when it comes to freight rail technology and the amount of goods that get shipped over freight relative to other modes is one that most European countries can only dream of (Russia notwithstanding), and this is something Canada should try to keep hold of. The proper solution isn't to reduce freight service but to build more infrastructure to also accommodate passenger service. This can be done either by building parallel tracks for passenger service next to freight tracks, or building a bypass for the freight trains if wiggleroom is a problem (such as the proposed Missing Link project here in Toronto).
The parking spaces do seem like wasted opportunity though. All that space in Canada's 2nd most expensive city and its not being used for more housing/businesses. Though to be fair this could apply to other notoriously large parking lots in the Toronto area, such as Yorkdale mall or Vaughan Mills. Donald Shoup's high cost of free parking book is a good look at how parking lots are costing cities a lot of money and wasted potential
@@RMTransit it's too bad that a land value tax can't be applied to go transit to encourage more productive use of all that parking. Unfortunately because it's a public agency it couldn't be applied to go transit even if we were living in a Georgist economy.
@Zaydan Naufal Metrolinx/Go Transit doesn't actually need to be directly involved in development because Toronto and the region around it is booming in construction. Plenty of transit oriented development is happening on its own. Nearly a third of all construction cranes in North America are being used in Toronto alone and much of the development is happening with access to transit in mind.
A lot of GO lots are slated for re-development, but a lot fo the projects will take 20-30 years to complete. The value of the land around the stations is well recognized by municipalities and GO, but it's not going to happen overnight. Oakville for example is 12 years into the design of a new midtown neighbourhood.
Nothing against Not Just Bikes or anything, but I really prefer Reece's optimism. Yes, GO isn't close to perfect, but major improvements can and are being made.
Great video! Seems like a fascinating system. I'm intrigued to know what the electric bilevel trains will look/be like, coming from Sydney where double-decker EMUs have been in use for a while (albeit with high-level platforms).
On crashworthiness regulations and "Crumpling is generally something you want to avoid": Crumpling is good. Many vehicles (not just trains) allow the front to crumple on purpose to act as a cushion for the passenger-containing part of the vehicle. This was one of the big changes in FRA regulations in like 2016. Before that, trains were required to not deform at all in the event of a crash.
Hey man, I love your videos. I would like to politely disagree that Go did not cut back service during COVID, my trip from Toronto to Waterloo has been extended from a 1.5hr trip with no transfers to now a 3 hr trip with 1 Go transfer and another TTC transfer. I want to see expansion and I'm hopeful, but it's still frustrating to see essential service cutbacks
Pickering station is NOT in the middle of nowhere. It is a stones throw from city hall and the main library branch, connected by a pedestrian bridge to the mall, a stones throw to the Nuclear Power plant, and between 2 major highway exits. It is also one of the most used stations on the eastern line as it is the first one outside of City of Toronto limits. So any connection to any of the Toronto go buses (notably the York U and college campus bus) originate there. It is transit hub for the entirety of the Durham region.
I am from Toronto and I would like to say this and say this once. Go TRIANs are my favourite thing when it comes to travailing out of city and it’s ALWASY fun to ride in them as ALWASY
I am one of those in Markham (Centennial GO) that walks to his station, yes lucky to be that close but at the same time this was a planed station that was done right! Over the 10 years I have been there I have seen the expansion of the rail line and the frequency Yes there is a small parking garage and there is also direct connection to transit. Yes some complain now about the frequency of trains, but that is their problem for poor research when buying property adjacent to a rail line being specifically used for GO transit. Also those taking bikes on VERY busy trains need to realise that the fact the trains are packed with people actually using it is a good thing and should stop being so self centred on themselves. As you have pointed out correctly GO as figured out traffic issues and has bus only lanes on highways and also know the best lanes to be in through experience and communication.
As a Transit Nerd, it makes me real happy to see North America starting learning the benefits of good public transit. One thing I don't understand, what _exactly_ is the issue with freight that prevents level boarding?
Originally the need to keep platforms out of the way of large trains meant platforms were inconsistent and hence were designed for people to step up the trains Instead of to provide a level boarding surface. Once all trains are designed a certain way it’s very hard to change the platforms because they suddenly become incompatible with your entire existing fleet which in GOs case cycles around the network
Wonderful video you guys! As someone living in the States, god damn do I wish I had access to some kind of commuter rail. I grew up with Amtrak and while that isn't strictly "commuter" rail.. many of the stations are in the Connecticut suburbs so it functionally serves that purpose. If only I had the sense to record more footage back when I lived in the area T_T I'm unsure how to cover it now that I'm far away.
Shoutout to the dispatchers who manage communications for the Go Bus network. In my experience any lines that may be impacted by, say, a crash on the 401, the drivers are informed and routed around it. It takes a good deal of bad luck to really be badly affected by severe traffic on a Go Bus.
the only bad part two bad part of go train: 1. expensive 2。 lack of parking spots. but other than that go train and go network is great. it is comfy, usually on time as long as its not delayed by weather or medical emergency. but its unavoidable
I live in Buffalo and have just figured out that parking in Hamilton and taking the GO train into Toronto is by far the best way to get there. Unfortunately they don't go to Niagara Falls frequently enough (I know there are buses, but those are slower) and there is a big disconnect in transit when crossing the border so partial driving is the best way to do it, but I look forward to not having to at all.
What I have found incredibly puzzling is the lack of parking at some go stations that are not monthly cost. Buses in the 905 is not the same service as the 416. Metrolinx has invested in a new parking garage at Rutherford, Gormley, and Bloomington, but the number of spots at King, Maple, as an example, are a joke. In the latter, all spots appear to be reserved at. $100/month. It’s incredibly frustrating and still makes commuters 2nd guess using the train at all. It’s not easy for someone in their 50s and up to bike in -10C weather while snowing, to bike 10km to the nearest station. I think to “change” comes with the reasonable amount of common sense that it’s not all like downtown. If the hammer is designing a transit system, we need to ensure that not everything looks like a nail.
I'd be surprised if Metrolinx gets away with selling parking lots at any point soon. Simple matter of the fact is that suburban commuters who vote and are the core market for GO like their parking spots and if the company starts selling lots or charging for parking on existing lots right now people gonna be angry and politicians will put an end to that. What will most likely happen is that GO won't expand parking as much as they have in the past, instead using lots that could become parking garages for mixed use development that maintains a similar number of parking spots. It's difficult to take away things that people have and like.
True but GO has been cleverly avoiding that political backlash by gradually rolling out paid parking in the form of reserved parking. So people can _choose_ to pay for parking in order to get a spot closer to the station. Over time more and more spots were reserved, and pre-pandemic it got to the point that entire parking lots were reserved, so the only way to get free parking was to use one of GO's "overflow" parking lots, which are often a several minute walk away from the station. At that point, people will actually be happy to have pay parking, since they wouldn't need to pay for parking on the days they aren't there.
Reese. You sure are right about the Go Transit Trains there in Toronto. One time when I was there. I was walking from Union Station. Over to the C.N. Tower. And while walking there. I counted the Go Trains I saw coming and going. I saw 17 of them. It was amazing to see them all.
Pickering isn’t really in the middle of nowhere. For the Durham stations, it’s probably the best connected to its commmunity. Especially thanks to the longest enclosed pedestrian bridge in the world to the PTC.
In Durham, In the span of 10-15 years, Kingston Rd. has went from ONLY DAILY GO Bus service to now having 3-4 local buses service in some parts (including another local bus that goes to Scarborough Town), dedicated bus lanes & bike lanes in some sections with more on the way, and now a night bus. That’s on top of the improvement on the GO service with more stops, a close to night GO service, and an adjacent route that runs to the northern part of Durham The improvement is there, you just have to look carefully.
For the 3 year period where I did not have a car, GO transit was a godsend, not just to get to work, but to meet all of my personal life commitments. The GO Bus system is extensive. And it has a secret weapon...the 407. GO Buses allowed me to see friends in Hamilton, Waterloo, Georgina, and jobs in Richmond Hill. The GO Buses also pass the real smell test...they tend to be much cleaner and much more comfortable. And this is something that really kills transit - the decorum of the vehicle itself and the people who use it. That is something that can't be designed away - people need to care about their public transport for it to be truly successful.
I often envy toronto for having GO to connect communities, meanwhile in Eastern Ontario getting from town to town or even city to city means a handful of private bus companies that only serve a few towns on the main hwy or via rail which only truly serves a small handful of large communities again along the main hwy
GO is starting service for London - St Mary's - Stratford - Kitchener -Toronto, and has had service to Peterborough for several years, so in a generation or two it should reach eastern Ontario 😀
Those lower density areas should have a minimum state subsidised train service running a few times a day. Such train services should never be expected to make a profit or even meet there costs. But they are essential to local residents mobility
The local transit connections and GO buses are usually good enough anyways. The only disconnect in the system that I am aware of is that GRT (for Kitchener) doesn't use presto, and I don't feel that problem because I can take transit with my student ID card.
Sure must be nice to have a government that understands that expanding transport infrastructure means more than just adding a couple of extra lanes to the roadways.
I used to spent 2 weeks in Ottawa 2 weeks in Hamilton and I'd take via to Toronto and a go bus or train depending on the time (they didn't have many trains to Hamilton at the time) and it was always amazing service and was only late a handful of times out of hundreds I love go transit 🙃
Go transit upgrading its train service to two-way, all-day is certainly a plus, but there are developments are sometimes quite puzzling and seem backwards. Take Bloomingtoon Go for example, building a massive parkade, instead of using it as a great opportunity to restructure its local bus routes was a waste. The stretch of suburbs between Aurora and Elgin Mills is just so poorly connected, since there are no yrt bus routes connecting to those stations. Instead of throwing a huge sum of money into building infrastructure for cars, why not invest in a clockwise/anticlockwise system that connects stations with neighbourhoods, and provide horizontal connections within neighbourhoods. Gormley and Bloomington, imo, are the worst culprits of supporting car-oriented development. Building such an extensive facility on greenfield that cannot be developed is just mind-boggling. While we can appreciate the upgrade, it's still really important to underline that taxpayers' money are wasted on meaningless projects. And when you do it in the 21st century, there's really no excuse for it. It's a public project that only serves the car-owning demographic and far from inclusive in any sense.
Are there any orbital freight lines in the gtha? I personally take the London overground, which by the end of go rer would be similar to the go network, to school everyday and the North London Line section which links orbitally, around central London, is a huge asset to me. Having what is almost at 7 minute all day service that dodges the central area is really useful and really drives ridership. I feel like the gtha would benefit from that but I wouldn’t be sure if there is actually any circumferential freight lines that dodge the city proper to convert
@@RMTransit Shame. Maybe one day. At least there’s some infrastructure there for if things change I guess. I’ve always thought Toronto was really promising, and could be the North American Transit Mecca. A circumferential suburban commuter rail line would just cement this in my eyes.
@@JacobOhlssonBudinger From a strategic/political perspective it's best to leave the orbital freight lines alone and improve the regional bus services which form the orbital component of the GO network. Metrolinx does have plans for a busway along the outer orbital freight line (407 Transitway), in case traffic worsens along the current highway. Such infrastructure would match the speed and reliability of a train while also providing better frequency and direct through services to destinations outside the Greater Toronto Area. Picking a fight with freight companies would create unnecessary animosity which could negatively impact the service on other portions of the network owned by those companies.
@@OntarioTrafficMan Fair enough I guess. It’s a great thing to have a frequent circumferential rail line from my experience growing up in a transit Mecca but not everything works everywhere unfortunately. Still, the radial-ness of the system would be well tackled by a good brt (though in a perfect world I would still favour regional rail).
I’m crying down here in my good ole USA town that boasts the longest light rail system in North America. But it’s all just park and rides and small bus transfer centers. COVID has made the lots empty. Hopefully we’ll see more mixed use at our stations.
The lakeshore west service now compared to what it was in the early to late 00's is night and day. Especially getting to the GO from Hamilton was a pain in the ass. The service now is relatively phenomenal. Obviously there is going to be major pushback against less parking, every stations parking lot on the west is completely packed on a weekday. As an aside, the only station on the west that is in an "industrial" area is pretty much just Bronte.
Making the perfect the enemy of the good does seem to be a feature among a lot of transit discourse. Even I'm guilty of it, I can easily go off on a rant about how Metrolink is a system designed for a city half the size of Manchester and if we were in Germany we would totally have a U-bahn with at least 6 lines and all underground in the city centre. But in the end it's not really helpful, and wishing for a system we should have had rather than working what we do have isn't all that productive in the end. That said, if I don't see a Metrolink tunnel between Deansgate, Piccadilly and Victoria by 2030, I will be rather disappointed.
@@RMTransit Im not sure which area you’re talking about specifically, but every time me or anyone I talk to take it, it’s brutal. While most of the time, the schedule should allow for a decent amount of buses to come frequently, a lot of times they don’t arrive at all, leading to hour or more long waits for a bus. At least at the west end. Subways are great though.
I remember when Milton GO station first opened . Way out in the boonies . At the time a relic station was at Main Street and CPRail . The new station was useless for the walker . But now Milton has expanded out past the GO station and it is still a horrible location unless you drive . The Super Store is just a giant parking lot away , that's it . I dont think GO transit or Metro learns fast enough .
I just came across this video when I was looking for a GO train video about the new GO service to Stratford, St Marys and London Go stations. I was wondering if you think they will have these stations fitted with elevated boarding ramps for wheelchair access by the summer of 2022?
Hopefully one of the tunneling projects is below the Welland Canal. Biggest gripe from Go is how the canal's right-of-way messes up train schedules... If Niagara still had the NS&T, even as LRT service, we'd be far ahead of this curve by now
I wish I lived in a city with some kind of decent rail service. In Fort Worth we have 2 trains: one commuter rail to Dallas, and one light rail to the airport
I'm a regular user of the Lakeshore West ride and I love the GO Train. Sadly Oakville Transit is a joke so I get my steps in to the station (about 8000).
Honestly GO Trains would work a lot better for me if there was a station in North Oshawa. The time it takes to drive to the GO station is around 20-30 minutes, and a bus takes over an hour. Last I checked its faster to just drive to Toronto *unless you take the 401 to Toronto in Rush hour, enjoy your moving parkinglot) I wish that this was a better setup here, I'd love to use the train more to be able to get around, but I'm too far up north in Nonquon area of Oshawa to use GO Trains.
There is no down side to improving transport infrastructure and offering people choices, you invest the cash in the development and building stage but then the infrastructure pays you back with increased economic activity and efficiency. That's why you have so much freight transport on rail in Canada because in such a vast country it is just too inefficient to send things by road. A freight train can be operated by one driver not a fleet of lorries that can get held up in traffic, held up by accidents, roadworks etc while a train can plug on and on more of the time at typically much higher average speeds. The exact same principle can be applied to both inter-city passenger systems and local commuter traffic too. BTW adequate parking at stations is very important too as it helps encourage drivers to short stop their travel, instead of driving long journeys they pop to the station and park up reducing cars on the motorways. In the UK pretty much every main line station large or small has some parking(though typically not huge multi-story car parks) to give drivers options, especially for those folks slightly outside the areas with decent bus coverage, just too far out to walk etc.
Loving the videos Reece! Metrolinx really should use your videos for public communication. Have you thought about the autonomous shuttle pilot project at Scarborough ?
GO is pretty decent, and has good ambitions. Its pricing is not great though, and should really be the only transit authority in the whole region. If you live in one city and commute to a neighbouring one daily, there is often a disconnect in scheduling that can leave you waiting at a transfer point for a half hour or more.
He replied to this video 6 hours before you did and shared this video ;) Both have valid arguments, but i'm still glad public transport is so insanely good in the Netherlands.
Great points! Go is slowly moving towards a real alternative for commuting. My only issue is that as the service gets better it will create more demand. It will bring more cars which will fill the parking spots at the GO Stations. Once that happens, will they build more parking? Unless the regions start connecting their local transit to the GO stations in a big way then people will not be able to use the new service. One other issue is how if you're on the outskirts of Toronto and commute via public transit when you cross into Toronto to use the subway, you have to pay the extra TTC fare. How is this not subsidized when there is free parking at Go stations?
They’ll build rapid transit. These GO stations are the hub in a hub-and-spoke model. It’s just incremental, you build the hub first then that enables the next stage.
All 3 Rail systems in Ontario are great together as one Current Rail system Toronto Transit Commission (3 Subway lines, 1 RT line and 12 Streetcar lines) GO Transit (7 Commuter lines and 1 Airport Express Line) Grand River Transit Light Rail (Future rail systems) Hamilton Street Railway (BLAST Network) MiWay Hurontario Radial Railway
Metrolinx has no immediate plans for EMU service if you read their latest reports as to what types of service they are going to run. Also, CN and CP will not allow electrification on tracks that they ow which includes; the Richmond Hill line, the Lakeshore West corridor beyond Burlington, the CP Milton corridor,, the Lakeshore East corridor to Bowmanville, or whatever, if it ever gets built, and the Kitchener line beyond Bramalea Station. They are planning Diesel Locomotive Hauled trains and Electric Locomotive hauled trains that run entirely on lines that they own. Locomotive hauled trains, diesel or electric, have poorer performance compared to EMU, or even DMU, equipment. Metrolinx has a lot of money invested in their current rolling stock, of which they might need to scrap a lot if they went to conventional EMU service. There is an alternative; build dual power multiple-unit equipment in 6 car sets using a lot of the existing equipment as unpowered trailers in the sets. They would need a powered cab car at each end and Bombardier has made these for NJT and I bet Alston also knows how to make them. The 4 cars in between could be existing GO coaches. This does not eliminate the problem of no overhead allowed on CN and CP mainlines. The answer is to do what Stadler has done with the new cars for Ottawa, Trinity Rail in Texas, and certain British rail lines. Put a diesel-electric power unit in the middle of the trains that Stadler has designed. These trains operate off overhead when it is available but they can run on non-electrified lines by using the diesel-electric generators to provide power to the traction motors in the cab cars and also for the onboard hotel power. These units could run through from electrified to non electrified track with no problem. Their overall benefits are: 1. Better acceleration than diesel or electric locomotive hauled trains. 2. They can run on either electric or non-electrified tracks. 3. They do not make the existing rolling stock obsolete. 4. If there is a major power failure they can still make it to their destination using the onboard diesel-electric power. 5. At layover or berthing centres they could get wayside power off simple overhead in the yards by extending the pans instead of plugging in wayside ower which is labour intensive. 6. If they could use automated couplers that also made air and multiple-unit control connections it would be very easy to shorten or lengthen trains. Metrolinx is very myopic in their choice of future equipment and is only willing to GO with what they know instead of investigating other options. Also, UP express was, and is, a total screw up because it is the wrong type of service with the wrong equipment in the wrong location. .
@@peskypigeonx indeed! All British trams were double deckers. Like in the US they got rid of all trams in the UK in the 60s and 70s, luckily HK kept the it's tram. It has a fixed fare of 0.33 USD, it's perfect for a few stops. Longer distance the metro is a better option.
Out here in Victoria we have actually good bike infra, but no trains at all despite there being a specific, high-demand corridor it would be great for. It'd be so nice if provincial governments actually understood transportation and didn't only fund highways
I've spent lots of time in Victoria (I'm from BC) and I couldn't agree more. The city could really use a BRT system, though last time I visited I was really liking all the bike lanes.
I made this video in response to Not Just Bikes' video on GO Transit. Jason makes a lot of good points regarding North American commuter rail, and I wanted to expand on why I think GO's transformation is so great, and the fact that some of it is already here!
Check out his video here if you haven't yet: ruclips.net/video/vxWjtpzCIfA/видео.html
I saw his video and thought it was so slanted and incomplete that it wasn't worthy of a response. GO Transit is a response to the suburbs and not the cause. Thanks.
@@RobinFyfe it might be a response to suburbs, but... that doesn't mean we in Europe do not have suburbs. In fact, most Europeans do not live in those "quaint, old, cute cities" but in suburbs.
What I do think is Jason's (NJB) perspective has changed, as he also tells in his videos. And what is "Great for North America" is, let's face it, not so great in many other parts of the world.
I do like the future for Toronto public transport though. But, like most people here will know, transit alone is not a silver bullet. Walkable / cyclable cities are probably even more important
@@vanGnaarA I'm from Scotland and most people were within walking distance of the railway station or connecting bus service. The nature of suburban sprawl in the Greater Toronto Area makes that impossible so thousands of people still need to drive. It's better if they drive to commuter GO Train stations than on the highways. Oh! The highways are totally blocked both ways during the commute.
Ok but the NJB isn't focused on the current transformation of GO, but the overall reality of the system and the history of why it is that way. And overall/historically, GO is a huge cager enabling device.
@@vanGnaarA 'Most Europeans live in suburbs' is maybe true, but the nature of those european suburbs (and their density) is more comparable to north-american city centers, not to their suburbs. Europe has very few 'large roads, only free-standing family homes on large plots' -suburbs, and mostly 'relatively high-density, row houses, interspersed appartment blocks and some free-standing houses'-suburbs, with walkable 'suburbs-sub-centers' with some shops and services.
I love this good-cop-bad-cop relationship you and Not Just Bikes are developing. It's awesome. One of you whips us Canadian transit lovers into a frothing rage, and then the other calms us down and gives us a reason for optimism. Both perspectives are great. Long may it continue!
did you think of changing the name of your channel to NotJustCars ?
lmao
@Data Null Void I meant a frothing rage at ourselves, not at the criticism...
I always think back and forth discussions like this can generate lots of interesting insights!
Yes! I have subscribed both to RM Transit and Not Just Bikes for this very reason. Not Just Bikes offers constructive criticism and a viewpoint of how countries outside the North America manage things like urban planning and transit. RM transit talks about things in a more positive light and provides up to date information on transit in Canada.
To be fair to freight, keeping it off roads and on rail for as much as possible is good for everyone
Absolutely
to move the freight would require delivery drones, I named the drone (PAT 2) after the character Postman Pat
Not Just Bikes vs. RMTransit: The Throwdown in Hogtown!
GTA: Transit City
@@OuijTube This time, there are multiple light rail lines, and MORE FREQUENCY
I mean surely it must be the throwdown in go town?
@@AlRoderick Yeah, that's better...but I got in first! ;-) And I got to remind people that Toronto is Hogtown.
It's also useful to understand that on several routes, GO uses trains during rush hours but switches to buses when the roads are not congested. So, what looks like only a few trips per day is actually all day service between the two. Where GO has to share rail lines, this is the best use of a limited resource.
That's how most lines used to work, but not anymore. The only remaining routes with peak-only train service are the Richmond Hill and Milton lines. The rest of the lines have all-day train service (every 15 minutes on Lakeshore West, Lakeshore East and UP Express, and every 60 minutes on Kitchener, Barrie and Stouffville). And those last three are also planned to gradually increase to every 15 minutes over the next few years.
@@OntarioTrafficMan I just added that point because the Not Just Bikes video and this one both talked about peak only service. (Plus I live nearest the Milton line.)
@@WilliamPitcher Yeah the NJB video was very misleading in terms of all day service
Presumably as track upgrades are ongoing then track sharing in Canada will be mitigated, it's amazing how much difference a relatively short piece of new track can improve and speed services up if only just allowing more separation, just some extra passing lines added around stations can make big practical differences. Our ancient UK system was originally all built as freight networks that allowed passenger trains on but are now used mostly as passenger lines with ever more standardised 125MPH rated track(the actual trains are capable of going faster but limiting them to 125MPH makes them last and last making them incredibly cost effective in the long term) which are quite well designed to allow for just enough separation to allow freight services to move through without slowing without coming into conflict with passenger traffic, at least round me, some areas the services are still a bit sketchy as in the north of England due to decades of chronic under investment on the standard commuter and inter city routes which needs to be sorted out. If the north was covered even with the service standards in my town which is not even on an inter city route the economy up north and the quality of life up there would be transformed.
Yep! Though to be fair none of it is very well communicated.
Love to see these kind of “collabs” where you get two different angles on the same story. NJB highlights the current problems, but you provide a lot of future hope for the network!
Excellent viewing from both of you.
Thanks for watching!
Not just bikes asks why… rm transit explains why.
GO was always an important boost to mobility for me, growing up in Hamilton without a car. It made day, or even afternoon, trips to Toronto convenient, with all the museums and other amenities that opened up.
Even just becoming the dominant mode of transport between Toronto and Hamilton would make me so excited for GO, and they can do it!
I really enjoyed how you and Jason have bookended a common theme, in this case commuter rail, and between you demonstrated the complexities involved in delivering complex projects and systems. Do it again!
Thank you!
NYC has pretty good transit... It does not pass a smell test though lol 😂
rat test it passes
🤣
Crazy people push people into tracks there but in toronto that doesnt happen as often
But at least New York has better Connectivity
I just wanted to thank you for this. There is so much pessimism and negativity which often supersedes the helpful contributions of constructive criticism when it comes to transit in the GTHA. I’ve been lucky enough to travel in many parts of the world, and we don’t have it bad at all. If anything, in Toronto we have some of the best balance between car ownership and transit use which still provides comfortable alternatives to those who would like to choose.
It is evident we are moving away from a car based society, but that takes time, and it’s not fair to expect everything to change in a year, to destroy every commuter parking lot and install bike lanes everywhere. Transit is more than just about moving people, it’s about moving the economy and providing the easiest and most convenient method of transport for those commuting into the city; not to appease the European transit mindset which many are currently far too eager to implement without being realistic.
The addition of all day service and eventually 4 trains/hour on GO lines is the biggest step to making it usable for more people. I was so happy to see that effort is being made to make that happen and not just leave the trains "sitting all day" (as NJB lamented)
Most GO line have been like that for a longtime now, NJB just picked a line that can't be designed for that reason as a way to bash GO transit
The changes honestly remind me of what Jakarta did to its KRL commuter system, albeit that Jakarta's transformation seems to be more radical. It used to be very underutilized, not well maintained, and very much unsafe (with lots of accidents, roof surfers and all). But changes in early 2010s have made it into one of the best commuter/suburban rail systems I know of (especially compared to similar systems in North America).
Routes and ticketing system were greatly simplified, more tracks were electrified, rolling stocks renewed, and train frequency increased almost to the standard of a metro system (up to 5 min headways in rush hours!). New stations were built, old stations were refurbished with much improved walkability, wayfinding, and integration with other modes of transport (especially the Transjakarta, which has become the longest BRT system in the world and still expanding). It's not an exaggeration to say that the transformation has led to a major urban revitalization across the city in general and a great increase in revenue of the national railways company (which operate the service). The passengers count actually tripled (!) between 2011 and 2019, and this was before recent expansions of Manggarai Central and other major stations in 2020-2021.
If Jakarta KRL can do it in a relatively short amount of time, it's not impossible for GO Transit (which is already better than KRL was pre-modernisation) to do the same.
"crumpling is something you generally want to avoid". Thank you for the laugh.
This was a bit of an oversimplification. The actual difference was that the US regulations said "the entire train can't crumple", versus the EU regulations said "the passenger compartment can't crumple". It's actually better to allow the ends of the car to crumple to reduce the forces on passengers during a crash, but doing so technically violates the (old) US regulations.
GO is great for tourism and recreation. I've taken my bicycle on GO Trains both as part of longer journey or with the express purpose to go to a certain station and cycle back. The weekend GO Train service to Niagara Falls has two cars with bicycle racks on the bottom. There's no extra charge to take your bicycle along.
I think its a great market for them to expand into
@@RMTransit Right from the start of weekend GO Train service to Niagara Falls it has been basically a tourist train and bicycles have encouraged to be brought along. I do agree that need to promote recreational and tourist travel more.
13:00 Makes me remember when I went to Toronto back in 2012 and I really liked my experience on GO. As a short guy, the seats have a big legroom and were way more comfortable than the trains we had here.
Which city are you in now ?
Manila
Yeah, I've always thought they were super comfy!
It's taking time for me to show my parents that GO is evolving out of simply being a commuter train you only use to get downtown in the morning and come back at night. I think the transition will be much more obvious when the rolling stock changes to electric on the main lines
Oh for sure, changing rolling stock makes it really obvious to people. Maybe we should have waited until now to change the color scheme since there's a lot more all day service!
@@RMTransit Yeah, doing it all at once to signal a change that is already there would make sense. I guess they just wanted to do it the other way around for PR reasons haha
Your turnaround is amazingly fast! It was great to get both sides of the issue on consecutive days while the arguments from NJB were still fresh.
Reece moves at Toronto speeds.
The idea was already in my head, I just had to film it!
Toronto could be the model city for saving public transport in North America through the commuter rail -> RER transition
The first time I used GO for tourism specifically was two weeks ago to visit Unionville. It was a fun day trip but it sucked that I had to walk from the car-centric station and parking lot to the town centre even though the train passes through the centre. I wrote them later saying they should do weekend stops at the old central train station. I think GO should consider a bit more how it can reach different target riderships and/or work with BIAs near their stations to figure out needs as well as cross promote each other.
Very nice and complete overview! I'm glad you were able to take a balanced approach that includes both the positive and negative elements.
Thank you!
Hello from Northern Virginia! I get your gripe about parking at outlying stations. We have that on our VRE commuter stations and outlying Metro stations. But here it's a problem of really poor transit in the suburbs. Bus lines exist, but they run so infrequently and irregularly that they might as well not exist. And if you're stuck in the same traffic on a bus, most people would rather be stuck in traffic in their cars. In this region, the rail line is a way to bypass the worst of the commute (usually the I-66 or I-95 corridor).
Actually I-95 has lots and lots of people who avoid the traffic on buses rather than trains. Omniride and fairfax connector have a zillion bus routes on the 95 Express lanes which are all fast, efficient, and well used. As for I-66, the express lanes there will be completed in about a year, and the many omniride and fairfax connector buses operating there will be able to skip traffic as well.
As for the infrequency and ineffectiveness of suburban buses here, I disagree. Buses here are all tracked and run on a schedule. Sure they may only pass only every 40 mins or so, but as long as you have access to the bustracker, you can just time your departure so you don't wait at all.
This is overall your VERY VERY BEST video you have ever produced. You are well informed and POSITIVE in your outlook. I thoroughly enjoy your INSIGHTFUL presentations. Greetings from Pickering.
The new Central Station planned in Kitchener is probably the best transit development I've ever seen from GO. Replacing the old station, which had minimal bus access and was kind of in the middle of nowhere, and putting the new one right in the middle of downtown next to the UW pharmacy building, and connecting to the LRT line. Just in time for them to start all-day two-way service as well, and a new station between Kitchener and Guelph in Breslau, which would connect to the Waterloo Region Airport (which right now is pretty much only accessible by car and some inconvenient buses).
It's actually not being planned by GO/Metrolinx, though. It's being planned by the Region of Waterloo with (minimal) assistance from Metrolinx. If Metrolinx had taken a more active role, the station would probably be built by now, because the Region was struggling with such a big project on their own.
Absolutely agree, its going to be a game changer!
Freight is extremely important, Passenger rail should be separated, but if they have to share that is fine, like how the Seikan Tunnel in Japan is shared, but we shouldn't expect perfect service.
Also your points on Busses are good, Even Europe and Japan use loads of busses, even with great trains.
No
Buses pollute the atmosphere (i said that as I admit that I am a gas guzzler myself)
@@alexanderip1003 yes they pollute, but newer buses are much less dirty than older busses. And if it takes hundreds of thousands of cars off the road every day, then that is alot cleaner than hundreds of thousands of private vehicles. Plus it relieves congestion. Hopefully, newer electric buses, powered by Ontario's nuclear and hydro power, will come one day. This will be excellent, especially with the Electrification of the GO network.
2:45 One important note that also applies to the US is that this number usually refers to tonnage and miles transported, not the proportion of goods transported by railways as a whole. By far the most tonnage on US and Canadian railways consists of oil, coal and ore, which weigh a lot and often get moved thousands of miles. In Europe such goods are generally transported over much shorter distances and predominantly by pipelines and boats/barges respectively. If you look at the freight share of intermodal traffic (which is more representative), they only have a slight advantage, which gets balanced out by the significant amount of goods that is transported on rivers and canals in Europe.
A lot of it actually moves by truck in europe! Which is quite a bit less efficient.
@@RMTransit
It does, but the proportion of intermodal traffic that gets moved by truck is surprisingly similar to that in the Americas (albeit higher). The main difference is that as a proportion of all freight transported intermodal traffic is much more significant in mainland Europe than in the US and Canada.
Europe has one thing a lot of other parts of the world don't: wide, navigable rivers. This allows for a lot of aggregate goods to be transported by barge.
One thing that would be benefical in the long-term is electrification of the freight railroads. The Milwaukee Road proved it was possible 100 years ago, if we could adopt a standard for North America the savings in fuel and greenhouse gasses would be phenominal...
@@Croz89 also canals were built to enhance and connect rivers, or acces more areas
The radial intersuburban bus services you mentioned is exactly what I wish the MBTA had for the rt-128 corridor. So much of Greater Boston is developed around this highway that is only really accessible with a car. It seems important enough that it should be served with transit as well. Personally I have wanted this just because driving that highway is so stressful at times but also I just wish transit was an option for going to work.
keep up the GOod work. taught me a lot as a new +286 rider...living in the east and riding occasionally on GO and having a son who rides it everyday.
Excuse me sir, but Pickering’s GO station is connected to an office complex, shopping and civic district, and is currently becoming a major intensification spot. Loved the video buddy, keep them coming :)
I was puzzled about that particular dig at Pickering, as well. In addition to your points, there is also a large older subdivision within easy walking distance. Pickering GO may not be as pedestrian-focused as many others, but if he wanted to point out examples of stations that are truly in the middle of nothing but industrial wasteland, all three of the next stations (Ajax, Whitby, and Oshawa) fit that description far better.
@@debestcanadian They are worse but IMO Pickering still isn't great! That said the Bridge helps a ton
@@RMTransit I get that you wanted to insert a joke at that point in your script, and Pickering as a whole has earned the reputation of "middle of nowhere" (particularly since there is no discernable downtown in the entire city). But compared to the other Durham Region cities, its transit hub is actually as reasonably located as it possibly could be. Next time, save the Pickering abuse for when it earns it. :-)
Hi, I really like the positive view you have on GO Transit, of course, there are a lot of negatives, but good things are coming on the way, a change that is overseen in this video is the buying of Bombardier by Alstom (I'm currently working for Alstom), and with this change production of the new fleet should ramp up when all the projects are properly set.
I'm now working for Alstom (Bombardier) and from where I'm standing... it's not so great. Hopefully more changes will come on this end and people might stop leaving.
The freight connection is such an important point and it also explains why many stations (esp. Lakeshore East Line) are located in industrial centres, not walkable areas like they are in Europe. We of course can't change the layout of the cities, but we can adapt! And ngl, Metrolinx has been making big moves for us.
My partner and I are trying to reduce our reliance on our car, and I came across this video as I was planning a trip to Toronto from where we live in Meaford. We'll be taking the train from Barrie South GO to Union Station, but we still need to drive nearly 100 km to park our car overnight in Barrie at one of those parking lots you mentioned.
It's a shame there isn't better transit infrastructure for smaller communities outside the GTA, but we're looking forward to our trip, and to learning more about public transit, none-the-less.
You forgot to link the GO station upgrade playlist in the corner. Great video though!
Thanks for mentioning I will resolve that
5:58 Yeah, why not have all day service with a 2tph on the Milton and Richmond Hill lines?
I really like Go. I love their commitment to improving the railway system, including faster trains, electrification (therefore pollution reduced even further) and station refurbishments!
Because that would require negotiating land or time with the freight companies, and they don't want to
@@RMTransit ahh, those stupid freight companies. Don't get me wrong, freight trains are essential, but passenger service is also essential. In fact, I'd say it gets even more important than freight imo
Because CP is really protective of the Milton Line, and the Richmond Hill Line... kinda stinks - and its also protected by CN but not as hard.
@@Absolute_Zero7 Railways needs nationalisation. With the government owning the tracks and the infrastructure, in my opinion.
@@gabrielstravels Whether or not it needs to be is a different question. The reality is Canada is one of the world leaders when it comes to freight rail technology and the amount of goods that get shipped over freight relative to other modes is one that most European countries can only dream of (Russia notwithstanding), and this is something Canada should try to keep hold of. The proper solution isn't to reduce freight service but to build more infrastructure to also accommodate passenger service. This can be done either by building parallel tracks for passenger service next to freight tracks, or building a bypass for the freight trains if wiggleroom is a problem (such as the proposed Missing Link project here in Toronto).
The parking spaces do seem like wasted opportunity though. All that space in Canada's 2nd most expensive city and its not being used for more housing/businesses. Though to be fair this could apply to other notoriously large parking lots in the Toronto area, such as Yorkdale mall or Vaughan Mills. Donald Shoup's high cost of free parking book is a good look at how parking lots are costing cities a lot of money and wasted potential
Fortunately this is all land that belongs to the Transit agency so as I mention, it's going to provide a lot of value in the future.
@@RMTransit it's too bad that a land value tax can't be applied to go transit to encourage more productive use of all that parking. Unfortunately because it's a public agency it couldn't be applied to go transit even if we were living in a Georgist economy.
I still think the way I address it in the video best reflects the way I feel
@Zaydan Naufal Metrolinx/Go Transit doesn't actually need to be directly involved in development because Toronto and the region around it is booming in construction. Plenty of transit oriented development is happening on its own. Nearly a third of all construction cranes in North America are being used in Toronto alone and much of the development is happening with access to transit in mind.
A lot of GO lots are slated for re-development, but a lot fo the projects will take 20-30 years to complete. The value of the land around the stations is well recognized by municipalities and GO, but it's not going to happen overnight. Oakville for example is 12 years into the design of a new midtown neighbourhood.
Nothing against Not Just Bikes or anything, but I really prefer Reece's optimism. Yes, GO isn't close to perfect, but major improvements can and are being made.
Great video! Seems like a fascinating system. I'm intrigued to know what the electric bilevel trains will look/be like, coming from Sydney where double-decker EMUs have been in use for a while (albeit with high-level platforms).
Living in the US, I salivate looking at the transit of other countries. Compared to the crap I have to go through every day, GO looks amazing.
On crashworthiness regulations and "Crumpling is generally something you want to avoid":
Crumpling is good. Many vehicles (not just trains) allow the front to crumple on purpose to act as a cushion for the passenger-containing part of the vehicle. This was one of the big changes in FRA regulations in like 2016. Before that, trains were required to not deform at all in the event of a crash.
Yes, I should have specified, people or passenger space crumpling
Hey man, I love your videos. I would like to politely disagree that Go did not cut back service during COVID, my trip from Toronto to Waterloo has been extended from a 1.5hr trip with no transfers to now a 3 hr trip with 1 Go transfer and another TTC transfer. I want to see expansion and I'm hopeful, but it's still frustrating to see essential service cutbacks
Good to hear that things are rapidly improving!
Man, this channel is my new favourite! Your method of presenting information is really engaging.
Thank you so much!
Pickering station is NOT in the middle of nowhere. It is a stones throw from city hall and the main library branch, connected by a pedestrian bridge to the mall, a stones throw to the Nuclear Power plant, and between 2 major highway exits. It is also one of the most used stations on the eastern line as it is the first one outside of City of Toronto limits. So any connection to any of the Toronto go buses (notably the York U and college campus bus) originate there. It is transit hub for the entirety of the Durham region.
@@emeraldbonsai it's not though, it literally is right next to Scarborough it is the first town east of Toronto, right on the lake.
I appreciate Reese’s constructive attitude and technical depth here. Really helpful contribution, thank you!
Well done. Very insightful and an accurate picture of what GO transit actually is like.
Thanks Sam
I am from Toronto and I would like to say this and say this once. Go TRIANs are my favourite thing when it comes to travailing out of city and it’s ALWASY fun to ride in them as ALWASY
I am one of those in Markham (Centennial GO) that walks to his station, yes lucky to be that close but at the same time this was a planed station that was done right! Over the 10 years I have been there I have seen the expansion of the rail line and the frequency Yes there is a small parking garage and there is also direct connection to transit. Yes some complain now about the frequency of trains, but that is their problem for poor research when buying property adjacent to a rail line being specifically used for GO transit. Also those taking bikes on VERY busy trains need to realise that the fact the trains are packed with people actually using it is a good thing and should stop being so self centred on themselves. As you have pointed out correctly GO as figured out traffic issues and has bus only lanes on highways and also know the best lanes to be in through experience and communication.
I love the video man. Pretty good comeback to Not Just Bikes 😂😂
Stay on it Sir. Very informative. Now starting to use it.
As a Transit Nerd, it makes me real happy to see North America starting learning the benefits of good public transit.
One thing I don't understand, what _exactly_ is the issue with freight that prevents level boarding?
Originally the need to keep platforms out of the way of large trains meant platforms were inconsistent and hence were designed for people to step up the trains Instead of to provide a level boarding surface. Once all trains are designed a certain way it’s very hard to change the platforms because they suddenly become incompatible with your entire existing fleet which in GOs case cycles around the network
Wonderful video you guys! As someone living in the States, god damn do I wish I had access to some kind of commuter rail. I grew up with Amtrak and while that isn't strictly "commuter" rail.. many of the stations are in the Connecticut suburbs so it functionally serves that purpose. If only I had the sense to record more footage back when I lived in the area T_T I'm unsure how to cover it now that I'm far away.
Thank you!
I was angry and sad after NJB, but now im optimistic!
Its good to see both sides of the coin!
Shoutout to the dispatchers who manage communications for the Go Bus network. In my experience any lines that may be impacted by, say, a crash on the 401, the drivers are informed and routed around it. It takes a good deal of bad luck to really be badly affected by severe traffic on a Go Bus.
the only bad part two bad part of go train: 1. expensive 2。 lack of parking spots. but other than that go train and go network is great. it is comfy, usually on time as long as its not delayed by weather or medical emergency. but its unavoidable
GO is the largest provider of parking spaces in Ontario, what?
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone mention Hamilton (my city) and that made me happy.
I live in Buffalo and have just figured out that parking in Hamilton and taking the GO train into Toronto is by far the best way to get there. Unfortunately they don't go to Niagara Falls frequently enough (I know there are buses, but those are slower) and there is a big disconnect in transit when crossing the border so partial driving is the best way to do it, but I look forward to not having to at all.
What I have found incredibly puzzling is the lack of parking at some go stations that are not monthly cost. Buses in the 905 is not the same service as the 416. Metrolinx has invested in a new parking garage at Rutherford, Gormley, and Bloomington, but the number of spots at King, Maple, as an example, are a joke. In the latter, all spots appear to be reserved at. $100/month. It’s incredibly frustrating and still makes commuters 2nd guess using the train at all. It’s not easy for someone in their 50s and up to bike in -10C weather while snowing, to bike 10km to the nearest station. I think to “change” comes with the reasonable amount of common sense that it’s not all like downtown. If the hammer is designing a transit system, we need to ensure that not everything looks like a nail.
I'd be surprised if Metrolinx gets away with selling parking lots at any point soon. Simple matter of the fact is that suburban commuters who vote and are the core market for GO like their parking spots and if the company starts selling lots or charging for parking on existing lots right now people gonna be angry and politicians will put an end to that. What will most likely happen is that GO won't expand parking as much as they have in the past, instead using lots that could become parking garages for mixed use development that maintains a similar number of parking spots. It's difficult to take away things that people have and like.
True but GO has been cleverly avoiding that political backlash by gradually rolling out paid parking in the form of reserved parking. So people can _choose_ to pay for parking in order to get a spot closer to the station. Over time more and more spots were reserved, and pre-pandemic it got to the point that entire parking lots were reserved, so the only way to get free parking was to use one of GO's "overflow" parking lots, which are often a several minute walk away from the station.
At that point, people will actually be happy to have pay parking, since they wouldn't need to pay for parking on the days they aren't there.
Reese. You sure are right about the Go Transit Trains there in Toronto.
One time when I was there. I was walking from Union Station. Over to the C.N. Tower. And while walking there. I counted the Go Trains I saw coming and going. I saw 17 of them.
It was amazing to see them all.
Pickering isn’t really in the middle of nowhere. For the Durham stations, it’s probably the best connected to its commmunity. Especially thanks to the longest enclosed pedestrian bridge in the world to the PTC.
The station on the south side felt like it haha, the bridge is great but it just connects to the mall.
In Durham,
In the span of 10-15 years, Kingston Rd. has went from ONLY DAILY GO Bus service to now having 3-4 local buses service in some parts (including another local bus that goes to Scarborough Town), dedicated bus lanes & bike lanes in some sections with more on the way, and now a night bus. That’s on top of the improvement on the GO service with more stops, a close to night GO service, and an adjacent route that runs to the northern part of Durham
The improvement is there, you just have to look carefully.
For the 3 year period where I did not have a car, GO transit was a godsend, not just to get to work, but to meet all of my personal life commitments. The GO Bus system is extensive. And it has a secret weapon...the 407. GO Buses allowed me to see friends in Hamilton, Waterloo, Georgina, and jobs in Richmond Hill. The GO Buses also pass the real smell test...they tend to be much cleaner and much more comfortable. And this is something that really kills transit - the decorum of the vehicle itself and the people who use it. That is something that can't be designed away - people need to care about their public transport for it to be truly successful.
I'm glad you for 2 seconds said London lol the fact they are going farther then the GTA is huge imagine in future if go went to Ottawa
For real though I absolutely adore both GO bus and train for their vehicles themselves.
I moved to Vancouver last year and I miss the GO train so much. Can you talk about transit in Vancouver?
I talk about it lots haha! My favorite video I ever shot is about it: ruclips.net/video/baDR_fBRpBI/видео.html
I often envy toronto for having GO to connect communities, meanwhile in Eastern Ontario getting from town to town or even city to city means a handful of private bus companies that only serve a few towns on the main hwy or via rail which only truly serves a small handful of large communities again along the main hwy
Thats the benefit of being a big population center!
GO is starting service for London - St Mary's - Stratford - Kitchener -Toronto, and has had service to Peterborough for several years, so in a generation or two it should reach eastern Ontario 😀
Those lower density areas should have a minimum state subsidised train service running a few times a day. Such train services should never be expected to make a profit or even meet there costs. But they are essential to local residents mobility
4:52 ah yes, my favorite little town, old coomer... err, cummer.
Spot-on, Reece! I couldn't have said it better myself! And I was seriously considering saying it myself after seeing Jason's video...
Haha thanks OTM!
Can you do a video on the success of Northeast regional rail (NJT, Metro North, LIRR, MBTA, CTrail)?
Perhaps, but probably not until I can travel and get footage!
Great video! It's nice to hear of a brighter future for this transit system
I’m only here cause my boyfriend loves Choo Choo trains, nice video :)
The local transit connections and GO buses are usually good enough anyways. The only disconnect in the system that I am aware of is that GRT (for Kitchener) doesn't use presto, and I don't feel that problem because I can take transit with my student ID card.
Sure must be nice to have a government that understands that expanding transport infrastructure means more than just adding a couple of extra lanes to the roadways.
I used to spent 2 weeks in Ottawa 2 weeks in Hamilton and I'd take via to Toronto and a go bus or train depending on the time (they didn't have many trains to Hamilton at the time) and it was always amazing service and was only late a handful of times out of hundreds I love go transit 🙃
Go transit upgrading its train service to two-way, all-day is certainly a plus, but there are developments are sometimes quite puzzling and seem backwards. Take Bloomingtoon Go for example, building a massive parkade, instead of using it as a great opportunity to restructure its local bus routes was a waste. The stretch of suburbs between Aurora and Elgin Mills is just so poorly connected, since there are no yrt bus routes connecting to those stations. Instead of throwing a huge sum of money into building infrastructure for cars, why not invest in a clockwise/anticlockwise system that connects stations with neighbourhoods, and provide horizontal connections within neighbourhoods. Gormley and Bloomington, imo, are the worst culprits of supporting car-oriented development. Building such an extensive facility on greenfield that cannot be developed is just mind-boggling. While we can appreciate the upgrade, it's still really important to underline that taxpayers' money are wasted on meaningless projects. And when you do it in the 21st century, there's really no excuse for it. It's a public project that only serves the car-owning demographic and far from inclusive in any sense.
Are there any orbital freight lines in the gtha? I personally take the London overground, which by the end of go rer would be similar to the go network, to school everyday and the North London Line section which links orbitally, around central London, is a huge asset to me. Having what is almost at 7 minute all day service that dodges the central area is really useful and really drives ridership. I feel like the gtha would benefit from that but I wouldn’t be sure if there is actually any circumferential freight lines that dodge the city proper to convert
There are but those lines are heavily heavily used because they are where freight companies relocated to
@@RMTransit Shame. Maybe one day. At least there’s some infrastructure there for if things change I guess. I’ve always thought Toronto was really promising, and could be the North American Transit Mecca. A circumferential suburban commuter rail line would just cement this in my eyes.
@@JacobOhlssonBudinger From a strategic/political perspective it's best to leave the orbital freight lines alone and improve the regional bus services which form the orbital component of the GO network. Metrolinx does have plans for a busway along the outer orbital freight line (407 Transitway), in case traffic worsens along the current highway. Such infrastructure would match the speed and reliability of a train while also providing better frequency and direct through services to destinations outside the Greater Toronto Area.
Picking a fight with freight companies would create unnecessary animosity which could negatively impact the service on other portions of the network owned by those companies.
@@OntarioTrafficMan Fair enough I guess. It’s a great thing to have a frequent circumferential rail line from my experience growing up in a transit Mecca but not everything works everywhere unfortunately. Still, the radial-ness of the system would be well tackled by a good brt (though in a perfect world I would still favour regional rail).
I’m crying down here in my good ole USA town that boasts the longest light rail system in North America. But it’s all just park and rides and small bus transfer centers. COVID has made the lots empty. Hopefully we’ll see more mixed use at our stations.
Once you do there is a lot of potential!
The lakeshore west service now compared to what it was in the early to late 00's is night and day. Especially getting to the GO from Hamilton was a pain in the ass. The service now is relatively phenomenal. Obviously there is going to be major pushback against less parking, every stations parking lot on the west is completely packed on a weekday. As an aside, the only station on the west that is in an "industrial" area is pretty much just Bronte.
Just moved to the region a few months ago (from Asia no less), and absolutely loving the GO Transit system. (Actually I like the buses even more)
Making the perfect the enemy of the good does seem to be a feature among a lot of transit discourse. Even I'm guilty of it, I can easily go off on a rant about how Metrolink is a system designed for a city half the size of Manchester and if we were in Germany we would totally have a U-bahn with at least 6 lines and all underground in the city centre. But in the end it's not really helpful, and wishing for a system we should have had rather than working what we do have isn't all that productive in the end.
That said, if I don't see a Metrolink tunnel between Deansgate, Piccadilly and Victoria by 2030, I will be rather disappointed.
Yep, its all about balancing things
Can attest. Go buses are pretty good. I took it all the time travelling to and from Guelph when I was in uni. TTC though…not so much…
The TTC is imo great for urban buses! Super frequent!
@@RMTransit Im not sure which area you’re talking about specifically, but every time me or anyone I talk to take it, it’s brutal. While most of the time, the schedule should allow for a decent amount of buses to come frequently, a lot of times they don’t arrive at all, leading to hour or more long waits for a bus. At least at the west end. Subways are great though.
I remember when Milton GO station first opened . Way out in the boonies . At the time a relic station was at Main Street and CPRail . The new station was useless for the walker . But now Milton has expanded out past the GO station and it is still a horrible location unless you drive . The Super Store is just a giant parking lot away , that's it . I dont think GO transit or Metro learns fast enough .
I just came across this video when I was looking for a GO train video about the new GO service to Stratford, St Marys and London Go stations. I was wondering if you think they will have these stations fitted with elevated boarding ramps for wheelchair access by the summer of 2022?
Hopefully one of the tunneling projects is below the Welland Canal. Biggest gripe from Go is how the canal's right-of-way messes up train schedules...
If Niagara still had the NS&T, even as LRT service, we'd be far ahead of this curve by now
I wish I lived in a city with some kind of decent rail service. In Fort Worth we have 2 trains: one commuter rail to Dallas, and one light rail to the airport
I'm a regular user of the Lakeshore West ride and I love the GO Train. Sadly Oakville Transit is a joke so I get my steps in to the station (about 8000).
Honestly GO Trains would work a lot better for me if there was a station in North Oshawa. The time it takes to drive to the GO station is around 20-30 minutes, and a bus takes over an hour.
Last I checked its faster to just drive to Toronto *unless you take the 401 to Toronto in Rush hour, enjoy your moving parkinglot)
I wish that this was a better setup here, I'd love to use the train more to be able to get around, but I'm too far up north in Nonquon area of Oshawa to use GO Trains.
There is no down side to improving transport infrastructure and offering people choices, you invest the cash in the development and building stage but then the infrastructure pays you back with increased economic activity and efficiency. That's why you have so much freight transport on rail in Canada because in such a vast country it is just too inefficient to send things by road. A freight train can be operated by one driver not a fleet of lorries that can get held up in traffic, held up by accidents, roadworks etc while a train can plug on and on more of the time at typically much higher average speeds. The exact same principle can be applied to both inter-city passenger systems and local commuter traffic too. BTW adequate parking at stations is very important too as it helps encourage drivers to short stop their travel, instead of driving long journeys they pop to the station and park up reducing cars on the motorways. In the UK pretty much every main line station large or small has some parking(though typically not huge multi-story car parks) to give drivers options, especially for those folks slightly outside the areas with decent bus coverage, just too far out to walk etc.
I can tell that this topic is one that you're passionate about, alot of energy in this video.
Also 4:54 🤣🤣🤣
Loving the videos Reece! Metrolinx really should use your videos for public communication.
Have you thought about the autonomous shuttle pilot project at Scarborough ?
Hey, great video! I wanted to ask - did you shoot the footage of the TTC and GO transit trains yourself? Or did you get it from somewhere?
GO is pretty decent, and has good ambitions. Its pricing is not great though, and should really be the only transit authority in the whole region. If you live in one city and commute to a neighbouring one daily, there is often a disconnect in scheduling that can leave you waiting at a transfer point for a half hour or more.
I think the pricing is pretty good as someone without a car!
these vids are bangin papi!
A certain Netherlands dwelling Canadian been quiet since this dropped 👀
Just kidding, great vids from both of you
He replied to this video 6 hours before you did and shared this video ;)
Both have valid arguments, but i'm still glad public transport is so insanely good in the Netherlands.
Great points! Go is slowly moving towards a real alternative for commuting. My only issue is that as the service gets better it will create more demand. It will bring more cars which will fill the parking spots at the GO Stations. Once that happens, will they build more parking? Unless the regions start connecting their local transit to the GO stations in a big way then people will not be able to use the new service.
One other issue is how if you're on the outskirts of Toronto and commute via public transit when you cross into Toronto to use the subway, you have to pay the extra TTC fare. How is this not subsidized when there is free parking at Go stations?
They’ll build rapid transit. These GO stations are the hub in a hub-and-spoke model. It’s just incremental, you build the hub first then that enables the next stage.
Post pandemic i really don't think commuting demand will be as high as before
All 3 Rail systems in Ontario are great together as one
Current Rail system
Toronto Transit Commission (3 Subway lines, 1 RT line and 12 Streetcar lines)
GO Transit (7 Commuter lines and 1 Airport Express Line)
Grand River Transit Light Rail
(Future rail systems)
Hamilton Street Railway (BLAST Network)
MiWay Hurontario Radial Railway
Missisauga also Skyrocketed in the 1900's from like 15th most populated to 5th most populated
Metrolinx has no immediate plans for EMU service if you read their latest reports as to what types of service they are going to run. Also, CN and CP will not allow electrification on tracks that they ow which includes; the Richmond Hill line, the Lakeshore West corridor beyond Burlington, the CP Milton corridor,, the Lakeshore East corridor to Bowmanville, or whatever, if it ever gets built, and the Kitchener line beyond Bramalea Station. They are planning Diesel Locomotive Hauled trains and Electric Locomotive hauled trains that run entirely on lines that they own.
Locomotive hauled trains, diesel or electric, have poorer performance compared to EMU, or even DMU, equipment. Metrolinx has a lot of money invested in their current rolling stock, of which they might need to scrap a lot if they went to conventional EMU service. There is an alternative; build dual power multiple-unit equipment in 6 car sets using a lot of the existing equipment as unpowered trailers in the sets. They would need a powered cab car at each end and Bombardier has made these for NJT and I bet Alston also knows how to make them. The 4 cars in between could be existing GO coaches.
This does not eliminate the problem of no overhead allowed on CN and CP mainlines. The answer is to do what Stadler has done with the new cars for Ottawa, Trinity Rail in Texas, and certain British rail lines. Put a diesel-electric power unit in the middle of the trains that Stadler has designed. These trains operate off overhead when it is available but they can run on non-electrified lines by using the diesel-electric generators to provide power to the traction motors in the cab cars and also for the onboard hotel power. These units could run through from electrified to non electrified track with no problem. Their overall benefits are:
1. Better acceleration than diesel or electric locomotive hauled trains.
2. They can run on either electric or non-electrified tracks.
3. They do not make the existing rolling stock obsolete.
4. If there is a major power failure they can still make it to their destination using the onboard diesel-electric power.
5. At layover or berthing centres they could get wayside power off simple overhead in the yards by extending the pans instead of plugging in wayside ower which is labour intensive.
6. If they could use automated couplers that also made air and multiple-unit control connections it would be very easy to shorten or lengthen trains.
Metrolinx is very myopic in their choice of future equipment and is only willing to GO with what they know instead of investigating other options. Also, UP express was, and is, a total screw up because it is the wrong type of service with the wrong equipment in the wrong location.
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You should make a video about the west coast express and how it could be better
What is your favorite form of transportation? I like trams.
Trams are great, double deck trams are the best!
@@sparqqling I did not know those exist. Sounds very fun to ride.
To ride, Atlanta’s Plane Train. In value, trams/light rail
@@LucidFL pretty sure Hong Kong has those
@@peskypigeonx indeed! All British trams were double deckers. Like in the US they got rid of all trams in the UK in the 60s and 70s, luckily HK kept the it's tram. It has a fixed fare of 0.33 USD, it's perfect for a few stops. Longer distance the metro is a better option.
Out here in Victoria we have actually good bike infra, but no trains at all despite there being a specific, high-demand corridor it would be great for. It'd be so nice if provincial governments actually understood transportation and didn't only fund highways
I've spent lots of time in Victoria (I'm from BC) and I couldn't agree more. The city could really use a BRT system, though last time I visited I was really liking all the bike lanes.