The Transit Solution Toronto Needs
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
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Toronto's GO Transit has a lot of bilevel cars and diesel locomotives, but with the electrification of the system, a new type of train is needed. We talk about it in our latest video!
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
I'm an urban planner in the GTA and I'm very thankful that you're making videos about this. I hope your arguments make it to the decision-makers (definitely not me, I'm just a maps and data nerd 😂)
Cool! I'm a student of urban planning and this is the passion of my life.
GO bi-level cars: 50 years young, no need to replace
TTC T1 cars: 30 years old, need urgent replacement
East when those Bi-Level just stayed parked at the yard for hours when it’s not rush hour back when there’s no all day service, but then again all day is like once an hour
Make it make sense haha
Trains that get used at an hour/half hour and 10-15 mins at most during rush hours vs trains that get used every 3-6 mins and run 18-20 hours a day
@@RMTransit Hawker Siddeley stuff is just built different.
ICE TD beeing replaced after less then 10 years 🤔
I think Toronto is perfect to set the North American standard on EMU’s. CalTrain ordered 23 Statler sets, but an order from GO would dwarf that multiple times over. With the order that they would put in, the economy of scale would bring costs down themselves, never mind if they went with Statler, who is already making them for CalTrain, or anyone else interested in the order, Marc, Septa, and TriRail come to mind. Probably not feasible to put in a fleet replacement order as it stands now, but adding a couple sets to a multiple hundred set order may get momentum moving.
A public tender for a sizable amount of trains over a span of years including 10-20 years of maintenance can easily result in bids of new local facilities and factory expansions. You scale the economies yourself at that point. Long-term government planning can do amazing things and they should absolutely do it.
@@Mr_Stone1 yes, but with the consistent inability for companies to pull new designs out of their….hats…..going with a company already making them, with a design they can approve, will streamline the process years, and millions in change orders.
What has to be done first is electrify the tracks. That's been discussed for many years, yet never seems to happen. Once that's done, you can run your choice of electrical propulsion.
Oh absolutely, it would be a huge order that could really change things!
Has anyone traveled province to province in a Train? Like ON to Sask or Manitoba via rail?
In the UK, I think the only loco-hauled trains remaining are the sleeper services, which are pulled by engines that mostly do freight work, and the Class 43 (InterCity 125) trains, which are about 40-48 years old and being phased out.
This might also have something to do with the tiny UK loading gauge where double-deck stock is a non-starter - neither EMU nor loco-hauled
@ Yeah, all the low Victorian bridges make double-deckers basically an impossibility in the UK.
Still, only 1/3 of the uk’s rail is electrified. Cities like Sheffield (population 600,000 have ZERO electrified lines to and from them and projects like the transpennine electrification is taking 20+ years to electrify about 70-90 miles of track and won’t be done until 2041!
In the Netherlands, it's cross border services where they lasted the longest. With replacing the locomotive before crossing the border. Although most international trains now have locomotives that can run on multiple types of voltages.
@@random27 in Germany, there are still plenty of loco-hauled services. For regional, the last new locos we delivered about 10 years ago, but the long-distance branch is currently awaiting delivery of a whole new series of locos and coaches from Talgo, to be branded "ICE L"
Props for the EMU Emu joke, Reece 😁
Glad to see Sweden's transit being mentioned! Feels like it doesn't get brought up often.
I try to bring it up pretty often!
Even here in Chile we've bought CRRC, Alstom and CAF EMUs and our cities are sprawling fast, EFE Valparaíso alone has a 50km Suburban train and planning to extend it even further
Ps. Alstom's Xtrapolis trains are so good, here we have an older generation (like the ones in Melbourne) and a newer generation Xtrapolis (closer to CAF's Civia)
I wouldn't touch Alstom products with a 10 pole (unless it was bombardier equipment) since alstom has proven to not be able to make good trains for Use in the US or Canada as every single piece of equipment Amtrak has bought from alstom has been a disaster it's so bad Amtrak is looking to sue alstom over it because the Aveilias don't work
@@IndustrialParrot2816 down south alstom has been making pretty solid products, like the already mentioned xtrapolis, the alstom metropolis used in the suburban railways of brazil and for metro systems like in argentina, chile, mexico and so on
@@IndustrialParrot2816watched Alan fisher huh, Amtrak orders have been pretty spotty and Ottawa O train fiasco has been a been a design flaw
@@TheRandCrews don't forget the Coradias and PRASA's X'trapolis trains have had problems too and a bunch of other operators have had issues with Alstom products and again Amtrak has had nothing but headaches with every single piece of alstom rolling stock they have tried
CRRC is ban in the US. I don’t know how trade agreements are in Canada.
It honestly seems insane that there isn't a proper EMU suburban rail in North America. They're so "standard issue" in Australia. It's seems so strange to say that another country could learn a lot from transit in Australia as we are forever comparing ourselves to Europe and Asia whilst asking "why can't we be like that?" but the S-bahn style systems you find here would be a really good model to role out across North America, especially if you have a lot of downtown tunnels with multiple lines feeding into them (to give you near metro frequencies in dense areas) like we have.
Have to second this, suburban rail run with frequent EMUs is something that just works for sprawling cities.
we're fighting our own war against the emu up here
NYC, Philadelphia and Denver have EMU suburban rail
Hmm Metro North and LI RR and Septa RegionalRail
Philadelphia, Denver, San Francisco, New York, and part of Chicago all have electrified EMU service and Boston's MBTA is supposed to join them but sure are taking their sweet time about Electrification and Rolling stock procurement
I think if Toronto was to go (pun intended) with EMUs, they could retire an equivalent set of Bilevels for every EMU they buy, assuming they put up the wires before ordering hundreds of EMUs. That way each EMU fills a place where the Bilevels were in the yard. Eventually I could see those Bilevels (especially the cab cars) being rebuilt into actual EMUs for service instead of buying completely new EMUs.
Interestingly enough that was the original plan the MBTA had a few years back before their regional rail planning went off the rails (pun intended)
Potentially even more assuming the EMUs are better utilized!
Have the EMUs run single during off peak hours. Couple them into doubles or triples during peak hours and supplement with double deckers configured into long trains. That allows for high frequency, without the excessive wear on the material that comes from empty trains.
@@placeholdername0000not enough capacity during off peak, at least not for the main lines. I go during off peak and the trains are often half full.
@@adorabell4253 Plausibly, but the option of going between having 3 units coupled during peak and 2 during off peak is also nice. But for night services, I would presume one to be enough.
On Long Island, this is the same way with the EMD DE30AC and DM30AC locomotives and C3 coaches as much of the LIRR is non-electrified like the Greenport section of the Ronkonkoma Branch between Ronkonkoma and Greenport, between Huntington and Port Jefferson on the Port Jefferson Branch, the Oyster Bay Branch, and the Montauk Branch. The reason they're bi-levels compared to the rest of the LIRR fleet is because the platforms on the diesel branches are shorter, and so using bi-levels will help get the capacity they want while making up for the shorter platforms. The difference between the DE30ACs and DM30ACs, is that the DM30ACs can turn on electric mode to enter Penn Station.
Because of the fact the DM30ACs are limited, direct service to Penn Station from the diesel branches only happen during peak hours, but that's not the only major problem. In the case of the Montauk Branch, it is single-track between Sayville all the way to Montauk. Double-tracking all the way to Montauk may not be realistic, but there is no excuse not to electrify and double-track at least up to Speonk where regular commuter service ends. Electrifying, let alone double-tracking, would make a huge difference for those who live on the South Shore of Suffolk County and rely on the Montauk Branch as their connection to the big city. Not to mention those who live on Fire Island year-round and take ferries to the stations.
Hamilton getting transit in the distant future is the only kind we get. Still waiting on that McGinty-era LRT...
Idk, the GO service to West Harbour all day is pretty great, and its frequency should be improved in coming years!
@@RMTransitHopefully Hamilton doesn’t repeat the mistakes made by the ION in Kitchener Waterloo. That system is painfully slow, much slower than the bus service it replaced.
Love your videos. I dont understand why you dont work for the city. You are so smart. I work at the ttc and literally nobody theres even uses public transportation.. so frustrating!!!
Electric loco-hauled trains can be entirely fine on routes where there's more than ~4 kilometers between stops. Here in Copenhagen, my commuter line (The Coast Line from Copenhagen to Elsinore) recently moved from being EMU-operated to mostly using double decker cars and electric locomotives. But the service did not actually become slower at all, because the new Siemens Vectron locomotives have a very good acceleration. And this route actually only has 3-4 kilometers between stops, on average. On routes with tighter stop spacing, EMUs are a necessity. But for trains that are more regional in nature, electric locomotives can be entirely fine.
That said, some of the Bilevel cars probably should be retired by now. 50 years is very old indeed. They should be replaced with EMUs, preferably as soon as possible - but there's no need to rush through the replacement of the newer bilevel cars.
Also, the platforms in Toronto are so low that it is impossible to have a train with that floor height through the entire train. You could possibly have level entry on EMUs, but you would need to have stairs internally in the train due to the bogies. They would also have to be rather tall stairs compared to what you usually see in European EMUs which are built for platform heights of 55 or 76 cm.
Yes, but that will not / should not be the case for GO routes
@@RMTransit If we just look at the Kitchener Line, the stations as far as Mount Pleasant are all 4-7 kilometers apart, and it's similar on most of the network. At those distances, running loco-hauled stock is not a significant detriment in terms of acceleration. And even if an extra stop was to be built at Spadina, then having a single inter-stop distance of only 1 km would not be a big problem. For the stations that are furthest apart (7 km) you could even add new infill stations without running into any issues with the marginally slower acceleration of double-decker coaches. But I really do think you overestimate the difference between modern electric locomotives and EMUs in terms of acceleration. It's not that big.
Another reason why many cities want EMUs is because then you can have passenger accomodation over the entire platform length, increasing capacity, but that is not an issue with the very long platforms that GO has.
The best solution, as I see it, would be to start acquiring EMUs as soon as possible to replace the old (35+) coaches. The newer Bilevel cars (with electric locomotives) could then be moved to the express services, where there's a greater distance between stations and fewer stations where the passenger exchange can be an issue, while the EMUs would be used at the lines with more frequent stops. Then, gradually replace the remaining bilevel cars as they reach 30-35 years of age.
The youngest of the BiLevel cars are only 3 years old. Throwing them out because you want fancy EMUs would be a waste, when they can do the job almost as well. Didn't you make a video just a week ago on how we shouldn't throw 20-year old trains out, but refurbish them instead?
Kudos for expanding the thinking of what could be improved transit in Toronto…and even Canada. However it may be bolder to expand the thinking beyond the state of this technology within the G7 countries. For example, taking China’s models-where applicable, given they are now the leaders in this field. For example, station design with higher level of passenger amenities, intermodal planning, optimization of guideways, right of way and grade separations, funding method such transit oriented development, more advanced trains, controls, communication and payment systems, construction methodology, etc. etc… when you come down to the basics, it may be our political system that creates the inherent disadvantage in this sector. The short election cycles conflicts with long-term planning and implementation.
@@wasmic5zYou don't even need to buy electric locomotives. Regardless of the bilevels' fate, GO has a large fleet of diesels, most of which were bought in the late 2000s and 2010s, that will be out of work as new equipment is phased in. The surplus of motive power means you can double them up on the remaining bilevel-equipped express trains.
Not only does that mean you can save cost on new electric locomotives, but it would achieve superior performance: the Vectron produces 7000HP, 8600HP in its short-term "boost" mode, and 67000lbf max tractive effort, while each of GO's MP40PH-3Cs produces 4000HP and 85000lbf max tractive effort, and having two locomotives means that power is spread out across double the number of axles, improving acceleration in adverse weather and reducing wear on the track. It also allows you to run with a locomotive at each end, which reduces the acceleration forces passengers experience and makes grade crossing incidents safer for people on the train - a locomotive is much heavier than a cab car/DVT, and the driver sits higher up, so they're better-protected and there's less chance of a derailment.
There would be some bad optics to using diesel under wire, but I can't imagine the idea of buying electric locomotives to use for just a decade or so before retiring them would be seen as anything but wasteful.
Emu facts: The emu is the second largest living bird. Its height averages 5.7 feet (1.75 meters). Males weigh 110 to 121 pounds (50 to 55 kilograms), and females weigh about 11 pounds (5 kilograms) more than males. Emus are a member of the Casuariidae family, meaning they are closely related to cassowaries! Their necks and legs are long, but their wings are tiny, reduced to less than 8 inches (20 centimeters). After molting, the birds are dark, but sunlight fades the feathers and they become paler at the end of the season. The emu's range covers most of the Australian mainland, but the Tasmanian, Kangaroo Island and King Island subspecies became extinct after the European settlement of Australia in 1788
Emus have very strong legs which allow them to defend themselves from dingoes, one of their main predators. They can leap quickly (they can jump up to two meters) to remove their neck from the predator's reach, and they can kick with a lethal strength. They can also travel long distances at a fast trot and can sprint at 30 miles (48 kilometers) per hour for quite a distance. They were the subject of the infamous Emu War when during the Great Depression, they invaded the farms of struggling WWI veterans in search for food and water. An attempt to drive them off was mounted, with the army called in. While a number of the birds were killed, the emu population persisted and continued to cause crop destruction.
Here in Dresden (Germany), we actually have the only S-Bahn system that still uses locomautive hauled bilevel trains. I think you showed them in the previous video about the GO-expansion.
I was looking for that comment :)
I think the comment about "major" German systems was meant to address that. Dresden is a nice city, but with the frequencies and speeds there, it barely qualifies as an S-Bahn service.
@@dda40x You should tell that DB.
GO is stuck in between either going for frequency or renewing their outdated cars (more expensive). Its managed to slowly yet strategically make its service better so that people *think* its getting better and they seem to be overly obsessed with making sure they make no mistakes in the limited budget they're given whilst also ensuring they're proving "results"
They seem to be going with the idea that people are more satisfied with smaller improvements every year or two than one big improvement.
GO has a huge budget for improvements, but "GO" isn't really in control - Metrolinx is
As someone uses the GO twice -three times a week, and is doing a presentation of accessible public transit thanks for this video!
I honestly got to say, go trains already accelerate pretty quickly even as diesel trains, so I'm not that upset by the decision to go with electric locomotives over EMUs, the bi level coaches are also already in good condition for the service they run, the only real change they need would be the use of Salt Lake City style level boarding.
All this from a guy who rides the Go Train fairly regularly from Oakville to Toronto
I have measured the acceleration of GO trains and the fastest I've observed is 0-100 km/h in 77 seconds, with a 6-car train. 10 car traind take over 90 seconds and 12 car trains take nearly two minutes. In the Netherlands, EMUs typically take about 35 seconds to get from 0 to 100.
They aren't quick! I think its worth going and looking up the stats for other trains as @ontariotrafficman has done!
Well thought out and invaluably informative. You should be talking to city Council and the province because everything you said makes absolute sense, and I don’t know why Metrolinx didn’t even consider it from the get-go.
because if you buy 1 train now, and one train later........EVERYONE is happy (everyone means the maker, metrolinx, politicians, intermediaries, contractors ------well, even the users (because they see "constant" improvement). As long as taxes keep going up, or inflation pays for everything; WE, the idiots, are happy...?
Also plenty of trains can’t move to EMUs because not every line will be electrified (Milton) so just move old cars to those lines to increase capacity
Transit in Toronto and Canada is a joke. Takes 1 hour and 30 minutes to go from Yorkdale Mall (major mall/centre in the city) to Scarborough (still in the city of Toronto). I’m from Vancouver but it’s the same thing here, good luck going from Richmond to Surrey or Coquitlam to Surrey. Never mind the lack of commuter rail to the further suburbs. They think everyone lives in the city of Vancouver and is going to and from Downtown.
I thought Brisbane's frequencies and travel time was terrible until this comment. Northgate to Central (which technically isn't Brisbane's main station, that's Roma Street) takes about 20 minutes.
Prague runs its suburban S-lines with the class 471 "CityElefant" double-decker EMUs and they are absolutely perfect for these lines. (more accurately Czech Railways operate them on behalf of Prague Integrated Transport)
And part of S7 lines are operated by push-pull units from 2 or 3 double decker cars, class 163 locos nad driving car. and one set with two dd cars and 2 locos for some reason.
Make sure that no matter the stock, ensure the GO system is completely isolated and won’t share rail corridors with other rail traffic. The SL commuter rail system in Stockholm isn’t and creates severe headaches for commuters, particularly during the winter
It isn't and likely never will be. But there is lots of capacity so that should be fine
Bi-level cars could be easily phased out progressively and redeployed on longer distance services which are less frequent for the most recent models.
Part of the MU fleet could also be dual mode as you suggested. However complete electrification should also be though of, especially on these type of suburban services.
What could be possible is:
- Phase one : EMUs for the 100% electrified routes, push pulled with the most recent sets elsewhere.
- Phase 2 : electrification extension, new EMU order, final withdrawal of push pulled services
Like this you avoid to withdraw trains prematurely while getting the most benefits for the main routes.
Well maybe, but again the bilevels are so old. A lot of them probably should just be retired.
I think that GO would very much benenfit from more express options. by that i mean, from the first station that maybe stops 2 or 3 times, then thats it. When go is actually.. going, it actually goes at a decent speed. bUt it stops so often
Deutsche Bahn has quite a lot of experience with trains that are pulled by (electronic) locomotives. They use this configuration a lot on regional trains (Regionalbahn and Regionalexpress) which in some regions kind of act like an S-Bahn. And they're mostly bi-level passenger cars. The train connecting the airport in Berlin to the city center is one example.
a lot of experience yes but mainly because having a locomotive was the way to go for uite a while.
Deutsche Bahn is actually sort of phasing out those regional locomotive trains.
Simens desiro, stadler kiss or the bombardier twindexx are the common replacements which are bilevel EMUs. Or at least can be the bilevel part is optional on the desiro and the EMU part is optional on the twindexx which is kind of a hybrid anyways.
Still electric locomotives is not the modern standard anymore but since most of the rolling stock isn't 50 years old it takes some time to replace them.
So yeah, there would even be emu bilevel alternatives if they absolutely want to stick with the bilevel design.
How you are able to present the seemingly endless short sighted decision making Toronto/Canada is famous for without being totally exasperated is incredible. You must drink a lot. You do a good job hiding it on the video. 😂
I love to see that you refer to trains in my hometown Stockholm 😊
Well thought out piece. Makes sense to me. Too bad none of the politicians that could effect change will ever see/hear your ideas or have the stones to break against the status quo. ☹️
Indian Mainline trains are loco pulled (and sometimes pushed). The network is now nearly 100% electrified. I would love if you could do a video on it
Propagandists never rest! 🤦🤣
Is there anything stopping them from phasing in EMUs? Can electric locos and EMUs coexist? If sticker shock is the biggest problem could they introduce the better technology in bits to justify any increase in cost they're afraid of?
I agree. If the tracks are upgraded and electrified, EMUs can be phased in over time.
Yes, they can coexist and they do that all over the world. Any train can coexist with others as long as they support the existing infrastructure (gauge, signaling, height and other infrastructure restrictions) although major speeds difference slow down the faster trains.
That said, they are not "the better technology". They do have advantages, mentioned in this video, but also disadvantages, like fixed less flexible length (there are a few that has some flexibility) so you cannot adjust the length depending on changing demand and a malfunction means the whole unit is out of service, with a loco howled train you can easily replace any car, and the loco itself.
They should start with ALP-45DPs the same dual-mode locomotives that NJ transit uses
@@IndustrialParrot2816and Exo in Montreal
@@AL5520 EMUs are much easier to reconfigure throughout the day than a locomotive. You can decouple trains outside of peak periods without the need to discuss shunting in a yard.
I’m part of the 0,5% of people who watch your videos from New Zealand ahah 🙋🏻♂️ Originally from Canada though and I miss Montreal’s metro and REM so much 😩. Public transportation in New Zealand is so bad, it’s insane.
The planned future decommissioning of the DPZs of the S-Bahn Zurich is not due to the performance (with one locomotive per 3 cars no problem anyway) but due to its age and lack of accessibility. However, they are still in good shape and extremely reliable. The reason for the low frequency is not the vehicles but the fact that the tracks are all at their capacity limits, remember: many lines are still single-track.
Someone needs to show this video to Keolis, the operator of Boston's commuter rail lines. They steadfastly refuse to move away from diesel locomotives in spite of all the problems they cause.
I was at Aurora on the Barrie line today; I hope this was a wakeup call for metrolinx to go with EMUs. We just had a failure of a locomotive that wrecked the schedule today, especially since there's only one track right now.
as a native torontonian whos moved to NZ this year, appreciate the shoutout lol.
If you are going to have express service then why not use Loco hauled for express service (like german RE's have) and EMU for the stopping service? Also lots of people commute to industry areas, shouldn't they be a major traffic generator even without redevelopment?
Also, you could have older trains with a higher operating cost working as extra capacity during rush hour. You might also need less acceleration for a lot of this, thus needing fewer locomotives. You could have the loco trains have the capacity of three EMUs coupled together, which means that your off peak services can be run using short single unit EMUs.
That is exactly what would make sense, and I assume that what Reece meant. The point isn't that all trains need to be EMUs, the point is that GO should start preparing the system to allow EMUs to be purchased in the future
I am not saying dump all the bilevels, I am also not saying we should follow the current plan (no EMUs)
What’s so surprising about the fact that Australia has emus?
Haha, clever
Take the bi level to run more rural northern line or sell it to Translink to run more west coast express possibly can better utilize the old fleets.
Lots of options!
If they want to retain some Bilevel trains they should buy the Siemens Desiro HC EMUs which are combination single and double deck train with better accessibility in the single deck sections and more seats in the double decker sections
A lot of these videos seem too high level and hand wavy regarding costs. Changing the trains means updating maintenance facilities, switching supply chains, retraining staff etc. Sticking with the existing trains is a smart iterative approach that reduces risk.
This is why the TTC tends to replace the streetcar fleet in one shot. It isn't long from when the first of the new appears until the last of the old is gone.
The issue is that you will say its too hand wavy, but someone else will comment that something is too technical.
Re. costs I think these issues should mostly be dismissed (and I did address some like maintenance facilities). Again Ontario is spending a *ton* on the project, the cost of new trains would be minor, and issues like retraining staff are going to be happening anyways. Supply chain is already up in the air because we are already moving to new equipment!
@@RMTransit In the video you mention new trains would cost $4 billion. This cost should be dismissed because we're already spending $10 billion on GO Transit upgrades? I'm not sure I follow this argument... an additional 40% is not negligible.
I'm curious your thoughts on how these trains would move the needle on daily ridership?
According to Demographia, the GTHA’s urban density is 2900/km2 while Berlin sits as 3100/km2. Not a huge difference. So even less argument to use a different system in Toronto vs Berlin.
Thats exactly what im telling Gwinnett Transit in Georgia. They should buy the old cars from Marta (Metro Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority) and build their own lines, but they wont listen to me.
I definitely agree that Toronto should get new EMUs, though what made me initially confused was why bilevel trains wouldnt work in Toronto unlike Sydney and Paris. But I think I understand that its simply because GO Transit uses low floor cars, which wouldnt be so ideal for bilevel trains as it means unequal passenger flow
Actually there are lots of issues in regards to electrical trains in Toronto and also in Ontario. The Toronto subway system was built largely between the 1950 - 1970 then nothing was built except the shepherd stump until the extension to York U which opened about 4-5 years ago. Since nothing got built the province ended up creating metrolink to take over and finally public transit is being built( with some conversely but things are getting done) The whole Eglington line is still being built but it is a much needed improvement. The problem with creating electric lines in Ontario is that often there is very few lines places that can actually accommodate the lines, since the existing rail lines run through various cities and towns and have level crossings. The only way you could actually get a fast rail connection between London and Toronto would be to use the north line which goes through Kitchener.
Yes, please do a video commenting on the status of level boarding
4:38 Vienna also, big time! On the high frequency trunk line. But our next round double deckers are going to be Stadler Kiss like everywhere else...
Great video! Have you presented your arguments to Metrolinx, the ministry of transport, or your MPP? I would be curious to hear their response.
One thing that I find frustrating with the current Go network, and the upgrades underway, is the lack of interconnectivity between the lines. When there is a track shutdown for whatever reason, most of the line is shutdown causing chaos for train users. There should be interconnections between lines so that trains can easily bypass issues.
The province should also be laying down new train tracks next to new highway construction, such as the 401 expansion between the GTA and Kitchener, or the planned highway 413.
In Montreal, it's go up and not long. You save on platform space and infrastructure in emerging regions. The BiLevel or the MultiLevel, I forget which, will load from ground or platform.
Montreal had planned on using BiMode DEMU's on Deux-Montagnes, but REM sorted that out and not worrying about carrying diesel into the M-R tunnel.
Train-type separation may be what pushes railroad wagons onto HFR inter-regional transport.
Like a giant shipping container, a bi-level bombardier train car would be perfect for turning into a house or cabin. That's definitely a good way of repurposing them.
Finally a Wellington mention! I'm really hoping you will make a video about our system one day, I can help you out with that 😁
I don't think the fate of GO's bilevel fleet should be decided solely by the age of the oldest cars. EMUs should definitely be GO's long-term plan, but in the shorter (medium?) term there's nothing wrong with getting the purchased value out of your diesel-hauled trains until the equipment ages out, especially as you pointed out in your last video that effective upgrades can maintain a high standard of passenger experience even with old stock.
Also worth considering is that any manufacturer is not going to fill even a partial bilevel replacement order of EMUs instantly. MTA, for example, took delivery of their M8s from Kawasaki over the course of about 5.5 years, and that was for a total of 471 cars (223 married pairs, 25 trailers) - not even half what GO would need to fully-replace their bilevels. As you said, unlike CalTrain GO doesn't have the space to just park new EMUs somewhere until they have achieved "critical mass" and can replace an entire line's worth of diesel trains with them at once, so there needs to be a transition plan for the years - maybe decades - it will take to fully phase-in EMUs.
Another commenter suggested that EMUs can take over stopping diagrams first, where their acceleration, larger doors, and better layout would be very welcome upgrades, while express services can make use of the remaining bilevel stock. I think that's the best solution for the coaches, but I will also add that GO could use up the remaining useful life of the diesels that still have them (the newer MP40s and MP54s, not the F59s) this way too by doubling them up on the remaining bilevel express trains. Sure, diesels under wire is never good optics, but if you're only keeping the bilevels around for only another decade-ish, then the purchase cost of new electric locomotives is much harder to justify.
The absolute shock of seeing my local station on the thumbnail for a RMtransit video!
A shock, but a welcome one to be sure.
A good train at a good station
I think the other problem is that GO and Via are buying their new engines under the same procurement deal, which lowers the overall cost for both, including interoperable parts and repairs. If GO went with EMUs then Via probably wouldn't have been willing to join the procurement deal, making costs potentially higher for everyone. Also without the shared procurement deal the Ontario Northlander wouldn't be able to get their 3 new engines to restore train service from Toronto to Muskoka, North Bay, on to Timmins and beyond
All your points make sense and it wild to me that Toronto doesn’t have Emus yet. The little kid in me who grew up riding the go trains is like “but I get to sit on the top floor of the train”😡🥺
While I don't have access to UP Express passenger data, I would hazard a guess that it's more useful as a way to get downtown from Weston or Bloor/Dundas than an airport shuttle. Given that I never see the original 3 car consist passing by, my impression is that it's not considered a good airport/downtown mode of travel. An airport limo will get you right to your destination door. Would love to see EMUs on Go and Via Rail but will likely pass away from old age before anything like that could occur.
Great video! Let's put a stop to the austerity theatre!
I agree, we should have a good train ;)
5:01 This is not quite true, as DB does operate the S-Bahn Dresden, which since its inception has used locomotive hauled bilevel cars and continues to do so to this day. Although the trains are way shorter than in Toronto, sometimes only having two cars, which mitigates the worse acceleration of loco hauled trains.
I guess you could make the argument that Dresden is not a "major" S-Bahn system, but it's an S-Bahn nontheless.
Additionally he forgot to mention the S-bahn Rhein-Main, which is undoubtedly much more impressive and important than the S-bahn Stuttgart.
@@Thomasmuller2309But they did not use(d) bilevel cars 🤔?
The Nuremberg S-Bahn used locomotive trains as well.
@@sea75300 So doesn’t Stuttgart. I’m referring to the list at 5:09.
Dresden is pretty minor, I didn't mention other major networks that I hadn't yet covered
Although, Adelaide does still use the 3000/3100 class DMUs, but those are being slowly phased out as the 4000 class EMU. Additionally, Brisbane stopped using electric locomotives and SX carriages in December of 1999, as newer SMUs and IMUs (not the 260 & 160) replaced the loco-hauled SX sets.
Also Australia mentioned 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
Belgium's NMBS also has a ton of bi level bombardier coaches and have many more on order. they seem to work quite well over there with electiric loco's. they absolutely should have single level EMU's to allow more frequency and less waste running massive 12 car double deckers and open up those extra routes.
For transit and suburban rail with relatively close station spacing and of course if significant grades are involved, MUs are the way to go, at one time using unpowered (and a lot cheaper) trailer cars were quite common (in NYC almost half the trains were trailers, what might surprise is that locals that did way more stops than the express trains, had a lower number of trailers since the issue isn't one of power as much as motor heating since the motors work both to accelerate the train out of the stop but also for dynamic braking when coming to the next stop). It seem like all of the newer trains on both the NY subway and the LIRR are all power cars. For less dense suburban railways and regional trains, using locomotives is cost efficient. I know that some folks thinks this slows things down but often the ability to accelerate and brake the train exceeds the ability of riders to stand up. This slowness is often reinforced by systems that simple don't use enough head end HP, old GP freight diesels often could drag long trains but were slow to accelerate. I remember this was common on the LIRR main line and made worse later on when they used old MUs with motors removed to replace older rolling stock, the MUs needed electricity from somewhere to power lights, heat, and AC, so they use several worn out locomotives with rebuilt diesel gensets to do this, these could also function as cab units rather than buying expensive cab cars, these added over 100 tons to the train without adding to the push. This was a double benefit to the LIRR in that it has a lot of grade crossings and locomotives are way better at wacking trucks than cab cars, I try to avoid riding in cab cars myself as I've seen what can happen. A push pull operation with locomotives at each end will in most cases provide enough acceleration to meet any need and protect the train in case of accident. Note that this is the arrangement that Brightline uses in Florida. Both diesel and electric locomotives are designed to be easy to service and have very long service lives, not so true for MU cars especially newer ones, cramming motors, switchgear(electronics), braking equipment, and AC units under the car gets rather crowded and makes maintenance a headache, remember each MU car is in effect a not so little locomotive, developing upwards of a thousand HP during acceleration (not a continuous duty rating).
As always, this is quite an interesting essay/video! Thanks for making this!
I live in Barrie and when I go to Toronto I really like to take take the GO train. However, to and from Union is one hour and forty minutes. If I were to commute for work, that's almost seventeen hours a week. Even if it used the time to read or work on my computer, that is still simply too long. Our GO trains as they are are simply not viable for longer-distance commuting. I have to agree with RM's analysis and proposed solution(s).
I think gO would benefit super well with Express trains more often. Especially ones that only stop at 2-3 places. Ive taken the express from toronto to burlington and all it is is skipping the first 4 stations.
Curious that you’re advocating for new trains here.. after just making a video a few days ago saying old trains are OK
It amuses me to see that train CRAWLING along that bendy viaduct near the airport - here in Sydney the track between Waverton and Wollstonecraft is a 200m radius S-bend with a 50kph speed limit. It makes a rather loud screeching noise which I can't imagine is great for the wheels or the rails! (Or the residents!)
9:29 As a Swiss it kinda bugged me, but Stadler is pronounced "Shtadler", even in other languages (or at least in English, French and Italian)
10:20 Same for Stuttgart, every time you have a ST in German it's "SHT"
He's speaking English, not German. I don't get mad at people who say "Toronto" differently from how we say it in "tronno" because I understand that people from different places have different accents.
@@OntarioTrafficMan Also: Einstein. Most English speakers say the name _almost_ like in German except they don't pronounce the "st" as "sht".
@@OntarioTrafficMan Of course not, but it doesn't mean you can't pronounce it correctly once you know the right way. I've always said "Toronto" until I went there and learned you don't pronounce the T. People weren't mad at me, they just explained, as I was doing right now.
Also I think there is a broader issue about English vs the rest of the world here, since if I mispronounce loaned English words in French or German, like "Week-end" or even "Boeing" if we're staying on companies' names, ppl will laugh at me or think I'm dumb, but for some reason an English speaker mispronouncing something gets a pass. I think it's better to politely teach each other instead of laughing at them or dismissing them because "we speak English here, okay?!"
I think a compromise is to keep the younger bi-levels for express and regional routes and buy higher standing capacity EMUs for the local routes.
By the way, the last scene with the white S-Bahn train running into the station is in Stuttgart, not Munich as indicated in the top left corner
10:30 I think you mixed up the orders the 130 new EMUs are regional trains not S-Bahn trains and the order included 30 years of maintenace and an option to order 100 more.
The platform hight is very important here in Baden Würtemberg we have 3 hights the S-Bahn Stuttgart uses 96 cm, while regional trains use 55 cm. Platforms used by the S-Bahn Rhein Neckar, DB Fernverkehr and mixed use, use 76cm hight so standartisation is a big oppurtunity GO shouldn't waste.
Now that you mentioned the x60, do you have any plans to make a video on Stockholms commuter/light rail network? Like the video you made on Copenhagen for example
Why don't they just move to EMUs one line at a time? No need to do it all at once. Just get rid of the oldest carriages first and test the waters with the new stock. You wouldn't need extra yard space because it would be one in one out kinda thing, right? One question I'm not sure about is would going to single level EMUs require longer trains and therefore stations? Or is the idea that the frequency would double and so capacity wouldn't suffer?
This. This needs to be read by the folks putting together the Regional Express Rail service plan. The bi-levels and locomotives have been legendary - they are to this date the greatest suburban commuter rail network in North America.
They can be used as a patch for a time when there’s 15-20 minute all day service on all the lines, but it’s got to go in the long term. They need to upgrade the network in such a way where electric locomotives and EMUs can run for a time together. I don’t know if this is even possible? Or I guess having a dedicated EMU line, like a Brampton-Pearson-Kitchener line
Last month, I took the UP EXPRESS to union for the first time, and I was surprised that it was diesel when I heard it moving, and it wasn't electric as I thought it should
Why would you think it's electric since no mainline trains in Canada are electric??
@@TheTroyc1982 bc the trains themselves looked like it was powered by 3rd rail or overhead wires. Bc that should be how trains get power eventually
Riding Electric trains gives me satisfaction especially when I think of air rail link
One factor that affected the design of the GO trains is they run over track that was used by traditional passenger and freight trains. This meant using ground level doors, instead of raised platforms. Also, the UP express had to fit into an existing built up area, which is what forced the tight curves. While you generally have a good series of videos, you seem to be lacking in background, as to why things were done. I have been interested in transit, particularly rail, since I was a kid and am now almost 70. I also used to work for CN and I commuted on GO for most of the years between 1973 and 1995, and so have experienced much of it's evolution. The 2.5 years in the mid 70s, when I wasn't commuting on GO, I was frequently on CN passenger and freight trains, as part of my work.
@@davidcook8065 I'm not familiar with that extension, as I live in Mississauga. However, I used to work near the airport and know how built up the area is. Also, the CN track the UP Express uses has been there for a long time and it dictated much of the connection to the airport. It's one thing to have a "green field" solution and another to have to deal with the real world. But yeah, penny pinching often causes problems. One I'm aware of involves the Hurontario LRT. There was supposed to be a loop around Square One, which would bring it near City Hall, the main library branch, the YMCA and several office and condo buildings. It would have been the busiest stretch of the line. Yet the Ford government killed it. Another thing they did was cut the extension to the Cooksville GO station platform across Hurontario, which would have made for a better connection between the LRT and GO train. They did that despite the huge job of replacing the old bridge and adding 2 more tracks in the process, which made the extension a trivial cost. To do it later, will be a lot more expensive. As is, they'll be building a 2nd bridge, put tracks on it, demolish the old bridge and build the new one, with tracks, leaving 4 tracks where there had been 2 and 2 bridges where there had been one. Compared to that, the platform extension would have cost next to nothing.
Boston going through a similar decision making process, although the talk has mostly been around whether to deploy Battery EMUs or at least Battery-Assisted EMUs. But it seems very risky to deploy an unproven technology on a mission critical public transit mode (esp when standard EMUs have proven ). And from what I've seen the trainsets will be more expensive and will likely require expensive new batteries installed every 5-10 years.
I say enough w/half-measures that end up costing more in the long run, all in an effort to avoid the mostly short-run capital costs of electrifying lines.
Indeed, battery is not a good choice for Boston
So would EMUs mean getting single level trains like the Toronto subway or still sticking with double decker? And would it maybe make sense to automate it if it is just going to be another subway?
Retaining the bi-levels makes sense in the short term. It would be better to change to electric haulage to immediately make use of electrification then slowly move to EMUs. Putting in too big an order for EMUs at once could increase costs because there is only limited capacity to build them. GO would then be competing with other buyers for manufacturer's capacity. There is also the issue that if there are any faults with new trains the whole system doesn't need to shut down. It also means that they won't all come to the end of their lives at the same time, staggering replacement and maintenance will improve cashflow for GO improving financial stability.
You are so right about the Union Pearson Express. I took my first ride on it yesterday and the first 5 to 10 minutes weren't that "expressy" and the whole thing made it feel like i was travelling in an older longer bus with a loud diesel engine. I genuinely wasnt expecting it to be a diesel engine powered as I got in. It was unfortunately pathetic for the money you pay for "express" travel
I agree. the up express is almost 15$. they can do better.
The new S-Bahn trains for Munich look amazing would be smart if Toronto actually looked at what kind of train and constellation the network requires and got a bunch of train manufacturers to bid to come up with a perfect train model
Got to ride the Thameslink trains recently and they’re also a perfect fit for the uk network but you could even just use kiss / flirts or desiro ml / mireos since they also have to navigate Austria and/or Switzerland which get lots of snow just like Canada
Actually, ÖBB, the Austrian national rail operator uses electric locomotive push/pulled bilevel trains (ÖBB Dosto) for regional express trains. These drive through onto the Vienna S-Bahn system and stop at every station. And the S-Bahnn has a frequency of up to 2,5 minutes/train. However these units are planned to get a replacement soon in form of EMU's.
Also, these Trains only run on each of their lines about every hour or sometimes half-hourly, and sometimes even those courses get run by Desiro ML or even still the 4020. What GO is doing is like operating all S-Bahn-Trains with DoStos, which is far from the reality here. And indeed, the'll get replaced soon.
Actually, it‘s less than every 3 minutes and that includes both S-Bahn and REX. That‘s considerably less than most other S-Bahn trunk lines in the German-speaking region (even Zürich!) and partially due to the fact that these sets are loco-hauled. 2,5 Minutes is the proposed goal once the new EMUs are deployed and ETCS has been installed. I‘d be really impressed if that works reliably though, since dwell times usually aren‘t great with low-level platforms and double-deck trains.
@@CityNaturePig Yeah, but if it's possible to run them mixed with EMU's in Vienna up to every 3 minutes, it should be possible to run only such trains every 5-7.5 minutes
Locomotive hauled trains work fine for regional express services, the problem is that GO also wants to use them on the local services within the city.
Key phrase:
"However these units are planned to get a replacement soon in form of EMU's."
I would ask - could you not have a mix of emu cars and regular? Make - all new cars - emu? Mixed in to add power to trains? Replace the oldest cars?
Yes, the point of the video is just that we should not be doing 0 emus!
probably impractical but couldn't metrolinx just convert the bilevels into emu's? the newer series bilevels are still in good shape and all it would really take is electrifying the existing yards to accommodate for these new emu's. Just an idea I had though im not a city planner.
EMUs have motors under most, if not all, cars and trying to fit all of those new motors in the exsisting design would be very challenging
Most of the regional trains I've seen in my life are multiple units and the only locomotive hauled trains I've seen in general are either the old intercity or doubledeckers trains, both of which are more or less justified (one for the economy of scale for constant travel, the latter because of the space requirement for the motors) and even the latter get more and more replaced into hybrids i.e. powered cabs in an otherwise modular train. On top of that, the only *diesel* locomotive hauled passenger train I've seen is the Frankfurt to Stockheim one (also a doubledecker) while your average unelectrified line is served by railcars and twin units like LINT, Desiro and Talents instead for their lower service and passenger count.
On that aside, I also feel like that GO should make not all the trains serve the heart of Toronto either with some of them bypassing Union Station, thus making it less overcrowded while still providing some good service on the branches (and these are good candidates for shorter trains as well).
I'd love your take on the cost of riding VIA rail vs the costs of other long distance transit solutions (plane, train operators in other countries, car *gasp*). Do you think the costs of VIA tickets are justified? Does the cost deter people from really taking advantage of the network?
VIA is actually cheaper nowadays than an average flight in Canada between Toronto and Ottawa, due to WestJet's exodus in the last year or so.
was thinking of the longer trips that VIA services, but you are right, hadn't checked Toronto to Ottawa recently.
AFAIK, it used to be that double decker cars couldn't fit all the necessary hardware underneath the floor for the motors. But DB clearly has EMU double deckers, so I don't see why GO can't do it either.
We are many options to address this problem. First could order double the amount of locomotives to put a locomotive on both sides of the train, so you have much better acceleration. Instead of order locomotives we could order very powerful multiple units which can pull the cars of the train. Where is a mountain railway in Switzerland which use the same method.
Where is not so big problem to build City Center tunnels for main line rail except the price. So only Berlin, Hamburg, and Karlsruhe out of all S-bahn systems in Germany has tunnels with aremore restricted when main line rail. You just need enough power. The langh isn't also a big problem if selectiv door opening would be chosen like the DLR in London.
Walked past 10 trams stacked nose to tail last night on King street. Easily outpacing them all over a 6 block walk. Walking back home on Adelaide I watched City crews ay ing down even more rails on the parallel East/West street. It seems like madness.
Only 10?
Ohio just got a few sites added to the UNESCO World Heritage list and is really banking on international tourism, but there's basically no public transit outside of the cities. With the distance between the sites, international tourists would have to either rent a car or bus and navigate some pretty confusing back roads. It's so stupid.
now now, no need to insult stupid
Ohio is rich in small cities and is between Chicago and the East Coast corridor; you deserve rail linking the Cs to each other and to the outside.
Reece. A solution on using the bi level is to re modernize the fleet with with power cars and power trucks. It would save a lot monies. Basically what the Chicago els and Manhattan els did when they event from steam to Electricity
Tons of cost without getting rid of the bilevels which aren't good for the type of service we want to operate
perhaps another barrier preventing this transition is that of labour -- reducing the individual capacity of each train by converting bilevel loco-hauled trains to single-deck EMUs increases the number of drivers needed to attain the required frequency increase to offset the capacity reductions, something which NA has been struggling with since the pandemic. would agree that the concept of having double-deck railcars is necessary to maintain capacity in the meantime until this issue can be resolved
waiting for automated (GoA4) EMUs for GO? :>
When GO trains first started, back in 1967, they had diesel multiple unit trains, though they didn't last long. Also, there's not a single bi-level GO train car that's been around 50 years. Back then, they had the original single level cars, including DMU. They experimented with bi-level cars, borrowed from Chicago. I don't recall when this happened, other than it was after 1981, when I moved from Scarborough to Mississauga. BTW, one great advantage to the bi-level cars is they banned smoking on GO trains. Prior to that, with the single level cars, one end was smoking and the other end was non-smoking, but that didn't stop the smoke from poisoning the entire car! I also had an experience with one woman who claimed that since the smoking section was full, she had a right to smoke in the non-smoking end. I soon set her straight. I first rode on aGO train in 1967 and commuted on them for many years, on both single level and bi-level trains.
There are still first generation bi-level cars made in the latter half of the 1970s, more so pushing 50 than are 50 years old
@@TheRandCrews I met my wife on a single level car in Oct. 1978.
Totally agree with your assessment, Toronto always seems to be penny wise but pound foolish.
What this actually makes me wonder about, is electric locos or DMUs? If you can only afford either electrification or new units, which would you choose, and why?
Actually, X60 would be a great fit for GO Trains. The platform which the X60 is derived from is called Coradia Nordic, which was "designed for Nordic tempratures" or whatever the phrase was. Given the insane winters of Toronto, the Coradia Nordic could be very marketable/suitable for GO Trains. Daily mean temperatures are actually lower in Toronto than in Stockholm.
Go Transit is more akin to an RB or RE system than it is an S Bahn. Germany still has tons of regional trains that are loco-hauled, and it isn’t a problem there, same with Norway, Denmark, and France. It certainly wouldn’t be a problem for Toronto either, the real issue is that Go should electrify. Using electric locos like a Vectron to haul the bilevels would be a huge improvement.
The thing is that go is with some lines trying to become an S Bahn system. And aren't pretty much all RB trains multiple units?
Is there any way to promote this cause by reaching out to MPPs or anything along those lines? Great vid btw!
Before migrating to Canada 20 years ago, I thought of Canada as an advanced country. CN Tower, The Dome - all that stuff. 20 years since my landing the country still basically is on the same level - not sure if not even lower. Nothing significant has been built, Internet and cellphone services are the most expensive in the world, housing crisis... But what drives my mind crazy: we are in the list of the only two developed countries who still use diesel passenger trains. But they already announce stops on busses and street cars, and TTC fleet is updated. Finally. Not on Subway Line 2 though. But I still, same as on my first day in TTC Subway hear the announcements in the Subway: Sorry for the inconvenience... I've been in many subways in many cities, having more that two subway lines. I visited China and was in an awe: in 30 years they became technically and technologically one of the top. I was on MagLev train and travelled on Bullet train from Shanghai to Beijing ...
I suspect that they'll go forward with the current plan, discover the issues and 10 years later convert to EMUs and in between service will be suboptimal.
Since they are increasing frequency doesn't that mean they need more trains anyway. Could they not use existing trains on certain lines and new EMUs on lines that need it now! And phase out the existing trains over time?
With the level boarding problem - the current bi-levels have steps down to a low platform, and toronto wants to buy single level EMUs with high floors (for more space inside due to no wheel arches) and level boading. Couldn't Toronto transit place some steps up on the platforms and have the new single level EMUs line up with these until the old bi levels are retired and the platforms can be raised a bit?
I would love a video on level boarding! Via Rail desperately needs it at union and other intermediate stations. It's wild that they only have it in Montreal and ONE platform in Ottawa. Not only is it safer and more convenient for passengers, but injury rates among employees would plummet.