Start of a new series: there are some game mechanics/concepts I get asked about a lot, so I am making a set of videos that I can just link to when that happens. The main explanation occurs in the first 30 seconds, and I do give a more in depth 'understanding' level explanation in the rest of the video. I hope you enjoy non the less, and don't worry, that doesn't mean I am putting an end to modifier stacking, I just don't want to burn out on it. Also made a better thumbnail, I hope. The last one was a bit too clip arty even by my definitions.
@@Maurcusj777 have you heard of the new opening out, Viccy 3? Not very popular at the highest level of play, but its seeing popularity among the casual playerbase.
Another fun side effect as it where is in a siege you roll a d14. I have picked up a fun hobby of walking into random game shops that sell DnD stuff and board games and things like that trying to find a d14, so far without luck.
I really liked this video and all the chess content in it! It's nice to see that you've managed to step out of the modifier stacking videos (which I love, but you seem to want to diversify your content too) while also keeping the classic Lemon Cake vibe. I loved discovering this hidden "emerging property of how EU4 works", but I think you could also make similar videos for less obscure mechanics for newer players (or even experienced ones - after two years of playing I still don't understand how Infantry combat ability or ship durability works, for instance). I look forward to the continuation of this series! Also it's really nice how you're engaged with the community (answering comments, listening to suggestions etc.). Easily amongst my top 3 EU4 channels. Keep it up!
Ah, a true fan of chess I see! I don’t want to be just the modifier stacking guy since even in Eu4 modifiers are finite after all, and thanks for the feedback on the video! I have another 4 planned for this week, I’m varying degrees of obscurity. But thanks for noticing the engagement, it may get harder as I get more comments but I try to respond to as many as I can, and it’s nice when it’s noticed!
When a player isn't the one starting the league war, or any war involving many tags, there should be a silent notice sent to all AIs involved, so that at least some calculations can be started (but not all at once, since there is no hurry they can be staggered a bit)
I wouldn't say that's the best solution as say you are Russia and Austria and Ottoman are duking it out, ottomans have like random middle eastern nations, Spain or Aragon for some reason and Austria, France and 9 million German minors. You on Russia would likely be interested and in this case you are, in this war and how it turns out as you can vulture the loser and eat them up. With the staggered calculations the war would go on for much longer as Sieges' and occupied provinces count dramatically to war score, and if not accounting for that not having constantly moving troops or updating battles could completely flip a war on its head against in a few cases. Not accounting for that. If during the war say this Russia is weak and wants/needs lands off of the ottomans and cant take him straight on they would be looking for the best time to war them, say right after a few big battles or defeats which could come either from lack of movement on the ottoman side resulting a lost war they should have won making the AI even more unreliable, or lack of consistent updates causing them to do things like miss their opportunity to war, show strong when they are not, drag the war out on their side much longer putting russia in a worse position then they would have been. This was just an example but if your say playing a smaller fella anyways you need to play around those close to you, staggering may fuck you up a fair amount.
@@SpookyScarySkeletor you are completely correct, but I think you miss understood the premise, the idea was to send a ping to the AI to start preplanning their orders for the league war before it kicks off.
CIV 5 has the same thing, it will even tell you whose moves go first. "Processing turn for: England," "Processing turn for Barbarians." EUIV has a lot smaller graduations of time, single days, which equate to less than a second, but they're there. Actually even games like league and TF2, and Age of Empires all do this too. Except their time steps are in microseconds. If you and an opponent meet the conditions to win a game in AoE II on the same processed frame it will default to a hidden turn order.
Eh, to be honest, trade really isn't that bad, I think its over hated in the community, and if anything in my opinion trade is a touch too strong at the moment, where if you do want to make money, its just better then every other method. But I do admit yes, using Tag Order for Merchant Trade steering is not the greatest decision.
@@LemonCake101 trade in the game is dumb not because trade is op or weak, but because how if you are a hegemony but are located in bad place all your trade is stolen
@@NebulaOfNorth that's.. fair. The solution is simple, conquer the good trade. This isn't a joke: conquest is on of the best ways of improving your trade income.
Yeah, protecting your trade is like, the 4th most important motivator in choosing victims and which provinces to take. Ahead of that is missions/cores/monuments, who's weak (including allies), and religion/culture/AE. If you're anywhere but South America, you've got a decent node right next to you, a good node one away and great node two away. In South America, it just sucks. The Caribbean is decent, some will always slip through, but if you have most of the Ivory Coast, you might get to steal some Old World trade yourself. Zanzibar is amazing once you block Cape, Malaccas & Beijing are also great. Hormuz is almost as good as Zanzibar but it's temping to keep creeping back until you hit Constantinople or something.
@@LibertyMonk I was thinking of a counter example to 'only South America being awful trade' but after thinking about it for a while, I have to concede, you are correct here! Pretty much everywhere else has at least a creatable pseudo end node for you, and South America is in comparison ripe for exploitations with anyone upstream.
@@doomdrake123 glad you enjoy them, and what can I say, I have the same urges. That's why I made this channel, it gives me a justification for spending 8 hours trying to find all the % buffs of obscure modifiers.
I feel like a drawing would work better as a model to explain the tag order, instead of chess. Showing the step by step by step process instead of just talking about it adds a lot of learning value!!
@@LemonCake101 just paint would be viable, nothing fancy. Im a physics & chemistry teacher and showing steps always makes everything 10x more digestible for learners
Tbh, I would view eu4 more as a very big spread sheet of two kinds the provinces that have all there information in them, like dev, trade good, proximity to other provinces armies on them and so on, and nations that have there stats like money, prestige, rivals and so. And the nation's have only activ changing rights on provinces in the very big spreadsheet that belongs to them. Rather then a chessboard game
That’s fair, but a chessboard makes it easier to demonstrate. Models have to be both good and easy to use, and I would argue what the chess model loses in accuracy it makes up for functionality and understanding, in my opinion.
@@andreasanastasiadis2950 well thanks I guess! But yeah I see your example with the spreadsheet too. In truth, the best model for Eu4 is... Eu4 itself.
I mean, everything is just a very big spreadsheet if you want to give data scientists, software developers, and realists a headache, especially any game (be it video, board, or sport). Ask someone about a pro athlete's stats, or how hitboxes work. But please, please don't actually turn everything into a spreadsheet. There are much better ways to store, manipulate, and visualize data.
My one quibble with this is that UI design around it is poor. The game will falsely show a battle will happen, when it would not. Using this system does not *require* the game to display inaccurate information, but it displays inaccurate information anyway. The reasonable conclusion is that this is a bug they didn't get around to fixing...but it's one of the oldest ones then!
I think the systems in place could take into account tag order for sure, but I have to also be honest, Paradox has a lot more stuff I would prefer they address then something like this. But you are correct!
Tag order isn't a mechanic, it's just a consequence of the rules engine existing and being run by a computer. Personally, I'd prefer if they extended the "locked movement" system to just say that movement locked units can't ever be caught and on the last day. I don't see a way to fix it deciding defender's advantage, but I don't really care about that. Maybe leader maneuver or province occupier can be tie breakers, but those only apply sometimes. Maybe if we went back to random terrain instead of simplified.
@@LibertyMonk I mean I can see the argument for it, but given that insofar the vast majority of my feedback has been 'wow this exists' I think addressing issues caused by it is pretty low on the todo list for Paradox. In the ideal world, it would exist, but the player would have no way of knowing it does.
It would be better to compare it to the game "Diplomacy", which is a strategy too and where you literally have to write "that army move there" on a paper to play
That’s a fair point, but in diplomacy build orders and movement orders are submitted at the same time, hence hurting the example :( as Diplomacy has no tag order as it where.
This is also the reason why Sweden's flag (if they still exist) is the one shown for CBs like Imperialism that apply to multiple countries.
Yup, that’s correct!
Start of a new series: there are some game mechanics/concepts I get asked about a lot, so I am making a set of videos that I can just link to when that happens. The main explanation occurs in the first 30 seconds, and I do give a more in depth 'understanding' level explanation in the rest of the video. I hope you enjoy non the less, and don't worry, that doesn't mean I am putting an end to modifier stacking, I just don't want to burn out on it.
Also made a better thumbnail, I hope. The last one was a bit too clip arty even by my definitions.
Ah yes I also like the opener pawn to EU4
What can I say, its the mainline theory!
I've always been a pawn to CK3 kind of guy. Just personal preference, I guess.
@@Maurcusj777 interesting opening choice, I heard good things about Viccy2
@LemonCake101 I've tried using the Viccy2 open, but that is really a GM opening, far too high level for me.
@@Maurcusj777 have you heard of the new opening out, Viccy 3? Not very popular at the highest level of play, but its seeing popularity among the casual playerbase.
I never realised it, but I love chess content. Great explanation of the theory in the video.
Ah, I see you are a true fan!
I’ll be honest, loved the new chess content, keep it up LemonCake
Glad you are a true fan!
Of course its a turn based game, eu0 was a board game, alot of people forget that and i always find it interesting the consequences of that
Another fun side effect as it where is in a siege you roll a d14. I have picked up a fun hobby of walking into random game shops that sell DnD stuff and board games and things like that trying to find a d14, so far without luck.
@@LemonCake101 I didn't even notice, I wonder if that's the same in the board game, or if it was changed for balancing
@@dorktriogamer2865 honestly, I don't know.
Didn't know tag order existed. Nice video.
Happy to educate!
I really liked this video and all the chess content in it! It's nice to see that you've managed to step out of the modifier stacking videos (which I love, but you seem to want to diversify your content too) while also keeping the classic Lemon Cake vibe. I loved discovering this hidden "emerging property of how EU4 works", but I think you could also make similar videos for less obscure mechanics for newer players (or even experienced ones - after two years of playing I still don't understand how Infantry combat ability or ship durability works, for instance). I look forward to the continuation of this series!
Also it's really nice how you're engaged with the community (answering comments, listening to suggestions etc.). Easily amongst my top 3 EU4 channels. Keep it up!
Ah, a true fan of chess I see! I don’t want to be just the modifier stacking guy since even in Eu4 modifiers are finite after all, and thanks for the feedback on the video! I have another 4 planned for this week, I’m varying degrees of obscurity. But thanks for noticing the engagement, it may get harder as I get more comments but I try to respond to as many as I can, and it’s nice when it’s noticed!
I never expected this channel to become a chess channel. I still support your decision. Go get them
Glad to see you are a true fan!
On the lag issue... every time you declare war when you have revoked and have 40-80 vassals now.
yeah, that certainly doesn't help, 40-80 AI's going 'oh yeah I should go fight'
When a player isn't the one starting the league war, or any war involving many tags, there should be a silent notice sent to all AIs involved, so that at least some calculations can be started (but not all at once, since there is no hurry they can be staggered a bit)
That’s a cool idea actually, not sure how it could be implemented though…
I wouldn't say that's the best solution as say you are Russia and Austria and Ottoman are duking it out, ottomans have like random middle eastern nations, Spain or Aragon for some reason and Austria, France and 9 million German minors.
You on Russia would likely be interested and in this case you are, in this war and how it turns out as you can vulture the loser and eat them up. With the staggered calculations the war would go on for much longer as Sieges' and occupied provinces count dramatically to war score, and if not accounting for that not having constantly moving troops or updating battles could completely flip a war on its head against in a few cases. Not accounting for that.
If during the war say this Russia is weak and wants/needs lands off of the ottomans and cant take him straight on they would be looking for the best time to war them, say right after a few big battles or defeats which could come either from lack of movement on the ottoman side resulting a lost war they should have won making the AI even more unreliable, or lack of consistent updates causing them to do things like miss their opportunity to war, show strong when they are not, drag the war out on their side much longer putting russia in a worse position then they would have been.
This was just an example but if your say playing a smaller fella anyways you need to play around those close to you, staggering may fuck you up a fair amount.
@@SpookyScarySkeletor you are completely correct, but I think you miss understood the premise, the idea was to send a ping to the AI to start preplanning their orders for the league war before it kicks off.
I love the new chess content in the channel
I see you are a true fan!
I love Chess tutorials! The legend, Lemon Cake, never misses!
Glad to see you are a true fan!
I love this chess content! Super interesting theory being applied!
Glad to see a true fan!
honestly didn't even know abt this, thanks for the info
Glad you found it useful!
This new chess tactic is amazing!!!
Glad to see you are a true fan!
CIV 5 has the same thing, it will even tell you whose moves go first. "Processing turn for: England," "Processing turn for Barbarians."
EUIV has a lot smaller graduations of time, single days, which equate to less than a second, but they're there.
Actually even games like league and TF2, and Age of Empires all do this too. Except their time steps are in microseconds. If you and an opponent meet the conditions to win a game in AoE II on the same processed frame it will default to a hidden turn order.
Yeah, its a surprisingly common way of handling strategy games.
the merchant part just proves to me that trade in this game is so fucking dumb
Eh, to be honest, trade really isn't that bad, I think its over hated in the community, and if anything in my opinion trade is a touch too strong at the moment, where if you do want to make money, its just better then every other method. But I do admit yes, using Tag Order for Merchant Trade steering is not the greatest decision.
@@LemonCake101 trade in the game is dumb not because trade is op or weak, but because how if you are a hegemony but are located in bad place all your trade is stolen
@@NebulaOfNorth that's.. fair. The solution is simple, conquer the good trade. This isn't a joke: conquest is on of the best ways of improving your trade income.
Yeah, protecting your trade is like, the 4th most important motivator in choosing victims and which provinces to take. Ahead of that is missions/cores/monuments, who's weak (including allies), and religion/culture/AE.
If you're anywhere but South America, you've got a decent node right next to you, a good node one away and great node two away. In South America, it just sucks. The Caribbean is decent, some will always slip through, but if you have most of the Ivory Coast, you might get to steal some Old World trade yourself. Zanzibar is amazing once you block Cape, Malaccas & Beijing are also great. Hormuz is almost as good as Zanzibar but it's temping to keep creeping back until you hit Constantinople or something.
@@LibertyMonk I was thinking of a counter example to 'only South America being awful trade' but after thinking about it for a while, I have to concede, you are correct here! Pretty much everywhere else has at least a creatable pseudo end node for you, and South America is in comparison ripe for exploitations with anyone upstream.
i gained 300 elo simply by watching a 9 min vid, fantastic job
If it only it was that easy for chess… But glad to see you are a real fan!
2:17 I see what you did there
👀
man i do enjoy myself some quality chess content! keep it up!
Glad to see you are a true fan!
EU4 is excel based Monte Carlo simulation.
Oh no RUclips is my safe space and Monte Carlo managed to follow me here… next I’m going to start seeing Markov Chains…
@@LemonCake101 love your vids. You cater to my urge to maximize certain modifiers.
@@doomdrake123 glad you enjoy them, and what can I say, I have the same urges. That's why I made this channel, it gives me a justification for spending 8 hours trying to find all the % buffs of obscure modifiers.
Good video, I love the chess content !
Glad to see you are a true fan!
I feel like a drawing would work better as a model to explain the tag order, instead of chess. Showing the step by step by step process instead of just talking about it adds a lot of learning value!!
That's fair, I will bare that in mind!
@@LemonCake101 just paint would be viable, nothing fancy. Im a physics & chemistry teacher and showing steps always makes everything 10x more digestible for learners
@@yanick0207 oh fair, sounds like an interesting job! I will bare your feedback in mind!
Loving the chess content
Glad to see a true fan!
Of course I like chess content! I'm Russian, it's a pretty popular thing here!
Ah fair, good to see a true fan!
Tbh, I would view eu4 more as a very big spread sheet of two kinds the provinces that have all there information in them, like dev, trade good, proximity to other provinces armies on them and so on, and nations that have there stats like money, prestige, rivals and so. And the nation's have only activ changing rights on provinces in the very big spreadsheet that belongs to them. Rather then a chessboard game
That’s fair, but a chessboard makes it easier to demonstrate. Models have to be both good and easy to use, and I would argue what the chess model loses in accuracy it makes up for functionality and understanding, in my opinion.
@@LemonCake101 you are totally right, I simply wanted to put my view out. Using a chessboard has a huge impact on understanding your point.
@@andreasanastasiadis2950 well thanks I guess! But yeah I see your example with the spreadsheet too. In truth, the best model for Eu4 is... Eu4 itself.
I mean, everything is just a very big spreadsheet if you want to give data scientists, software developers, and realists a headache, especially any game (be it video, board, or sport). Ask someone about a pro athlete's stats, or how hitboxes work.
But please, please don't actually turn everything into a spreadsheet. There are much better ways to store, manipulate, and visualize data.
@@LibertyMonk I mean I am not convinced, I have worked with SQL before and let me tell you I want to go back to Excel.
I love new chess content 👍
Glad you are a true fan!
Would be nice if you made a full chess video, but this is close
Time to pivot the channel!
My one quibble with this is that UI design around it is poor. The game will falsely show a battle will happen, when it would not. Using this system does not *require* the game to display inaccurate information, but it displays inaccurate information anyway. The reasonable conclusion is that this is a bug they didn't get around to fixing...but it's one of the oldest ones then!
I think the systems in place could take into account tag order for sure, but I have to also be honest, Paradox has a lot more stuff I would prefer they address then something like this. But you are correct!
Tag order isn't a mechanic, it's just a consequence of the rules engine existing and being run by a computer.
Personally, I'd prefer if they extended the "locked movement" system to just say that movement locked units can't ever be caught and on the last day. I don't see a way to fix it deciding defender's advantage, but I don't really care about that. Maybe leader maneuver or province occupier can be tie breakers, but those only apply sometimes. Maybe if we went back to random terrain instead of simplified.
@@LibertyMonk I mean I can see the argument for it, but given that insofar the vast majority of my feedback has been 'wow this exists' I think addressing issues caused by it is pretty low on the todo list for Paradox. In the ideal world, it would exist, but the player would have no way of knowing it does.
It would be better to compare it to the game "Diplomacy", which is a strategy too and where you literally have to write "that army move there" on a paper to play
That’s a fair point, but in diplomacy build orders and movement orders are submitted at the same time, hence hurting the example :( as Diplomacy has no tag order as it where.
Hi thanks for vid
Happy you enjoyed!
Brother you don't need any excuse to show Chess every here and there, your chess skills are great, ah and also whatever you said about "tags".
Well, Glad to see you are a true fan!
first on the dot, lucky me
oh damn, impressive! I think you actually beat my own comment!
:)
:)
you could probably use a new mic
Yeah, I do get more and more comments on it. I keep trying to fix it with software and it’s not working.