I really think they needed to reduce the scope. It sucks, but that's what happens when you get serialized. They needed to prove they can deal with small budgets and short seasons IMO.
the main problem for me was that the show just needed MORE episodes. We keep getting shows with only 8-10 episode seasons now, and wish we could go back to days of 20 episode seasons. I also understand the mindset of wanting to rush out and tell your story, especially in a time now where big wigs just love to cancel shows left and right despite critical aclaim. I will NEVER forgive netflix for ditching inside job
Especially with a show like Hazbin, I feel like it needs episodes that focus on the characters and just smaller adventures to balance out the story driven stuff with the angels and get to delve into it more.
I love how people's main complaint on Hazbin hotel is that we wanted MORE episodes about it. Like this is good, but what would be better? Even MORE of Hazbin Hotel.
MORE exploration & explanation of this world/lore of it MORE character centric episodes before things hit the fan with heaven MORE building of the bonds & dynamics between characters, especially with making it feel more like a found family as they claim to be. MORE focused on the ways that people can be REDEEMED/facing their literal & metaphorical inner demons 😈 and sins. Especially if they want to be redeemed enough to go INTO HEAVEN!
Also given how Helluva Boss also seems to rush to get to all the big moments, I seriously don’t think having more episodes would’ve been a fix necessarily. Both shows are notorious for skipping all the small character moments to make us care for the big moments
It's good that he immediately acknowledged most of the shows plot related flaws are due to getting less episodes than needed, more importantly that it was a studio decision.
It ain't a last minute decision for the season to be 8 episodes though. I mean couldn't vizzie rewrite some things so that the series wouldn't be as rushed as an afterthought school project?
@@christopherhosein9288the problem with these shows is that they fear they won't get renewed for a second season, so they shove in as much as they can.
39:04 yeah they did sir pentious dirty with how they killed him. They could have fixed it by just having sir pentious fire the laser that he was charging and maybe even have it do decent damage to Adam resulting in him losing half his mask and THEN have Adam blast him while making a remark on how he actually felt that.
imagine the beam firing just as adam turns around to look, and he's forced to try to tank the laser, eventually deflecting it and hitting pentious with the beam
@@TippedScale that also would have worked much better than what they went with. The weapon didn't even have to do damage to Adam just annoy/burn his clothes a bit and it still would have been far better than what we got.
@@nicholasaugello2534 the end itself with him sacreficing himself to help his newfound family/friends is good but it's the execution with the show treating his final stand as a joke with Adam just blasting him before Sir Pentious could do anything and then expecting us to feel bad later after the battle that is kida bad.
@@nicholasaugello2534 because as I said earlier Sir Pentious didn't even need to do any damage to him just distract him/annoy him but the way they did it Sir Pentious final stand was pretty much a fart in the wind.
In my interpretation, it's that "Loser, Baby" isn't necessarily saying that Husk and Angel's situations are one-to-one, it's that they both have self-destructive ways of coping, but it doesn't necessarily help that we haven't yet gotten an expansion on Husk and Alastor's relationship. The two aren't one-to-one necessarily because Angel's situations are more severe, rather that his relationship with Valentino has parallels to real abusive relationships, whereas Husk, while he could be at risk of being killed by Alastor(though whether or not double death has severe consequences is yet to be seen), their relationship is purely fictional, being the results of a magical deal.
Yeah I saw the song as not just "we're the same you and me" but "you're fucked but you're not alone." *Granted* the 1st one is also what they were going for so I see why people are rubbed the wrong way alongside other issues. -why would you get someone with a SA kink to do the SA sequence, getting them to do literally anything else would've been fine-
I don’t really have a complaint with the lyrics in the song, it’s actually kind of catchy although since it’s catchy I kind of hate angel dust’s… iffy part of the song.
Vivziepop is the type of writer who would take the SpongeBob pilot, Help Wanted, and find a way to squeeze the Chum Bucket, Sandy Cheeks’ debut, and Boating School all within the first episode. This isnt just a problem with Hazbin and it’s 8 episode run. Helluva Boss and from what I’ve heard, her comic Zoophobia all have the same pacing problems.
@@Jdudec367 fair enough but like Husk and Nifty definitely should’ve been episode 2 material instead of having them hastily added in the last few minutes. Barely any time to get to know them.
@@Jdudec367 i am blaming the pilot. My whole point is comparing how Hazbin squeezes way too much into it's pilot whereas spongebob only included a few recurring elements before it gradually introduced more episode by episode.
@@comradejellobiafra4638 She said she didn't know an angel could be hurt at all. Even if there was some doubt about who had to wield the weapon she's an angel which would mean at the very least she could hurt an angel with her spear.
@@lumityviktuuristanartist4100 they should have made it clear in her dialogue because in isolation it obviously implies she didn't know they could be hurt at all. just make Carmilla say "did you know angels can be harmed by sinners?" it's easy
I believe the main problem with that was just poor choice of wordings to clear up what exactly Vaggie meant; "I didn't know they could get hurt by demons like Carmine" would've fixed the confusion so simply.
One thing I think makes both Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss so weird to watch is the fact that the creator sucks at actually using her story engines. Story engine is pretty much a broad outline of what the show is about. Let’s take like a sports anime. It has a very simple story engine: they play sports. Of course between the games they’ll do training and bonding while dealing with personal issues, but you can expect an actual match to take place every few episodes. Helluva Boss is about killing people for clients who went to hell. You would expect the main group to go to earth and do their assassination gigs every few episodes, with personal issues sprinkled within. But instead, there is a “forbidden love” romance story which takes up space, clogging the engine. Hazbin Hotel. It’s about redeeming sinners. You would expect the main group to try helping a sinner becoming a better person, with personal issues sprinkled within. But instead, it’s a grand story of hell fighting against heaven with the hotel as set dressing.
True enough. I may be a fan but I can acknowledge that they don't really have much of a formula about how to approach what is assumed to be the main premise. I have never heard the term "story engine" before though! I like it. I should start using that.
Honestly I'm a really big fan of how the engines of both shows change a lot. It keeps me more at the edge of my seat, it makes the world seem more vibrant, and piques my imagination as to what other kinds of stories can be explored in future episodes.
I disagree, VIv really doesn`t suck at using her story engines. Like yeah the romance in Helluva Boss takes up space but it`s still assassins too. As for Hazbin Hotel...well no actually it very much is about redeeming sinners, the fight against Heaven is a thing but that isn`t the focus for most episodes even in episode 6 it`s about showing heaven that redeeming sinners is possible.
THANK YOU for bringing up how Viv straight-up lied about Raph being an SA survivor as a shitty attempt to deflect controversy. It's such an obviously godawful thing she did and I never see ANY youtubers talking about it, it's so frustrating. The fact that he had to clarify a second time that he's not a survivor directly because she caused so much confusion about it is wild.
It’s been driving me crazy that this is the only video I’ve seen so far that even brings it up. It really is enough for me to not give a crap about this show or anything else she does, she is NOT fit to engage with the public if she’s lying about something as serious as SA so casually. It’s disgusting, and I’m failing to understand how so many people have just ignored it.
@@folasade5453 I know, right??? I think because so many of the HH/HB reviewers are firmly on the fandom/standom side, they just refuse to bring it up since it's literally inexcusable, and they just wanna paint Viv as this innocent lil' lamb that can do no wrong. :/ This isn't even the first time she's been caught in a lie, and yet so many people still put her on a pedestal for some stupid reason.
@@quilaviper It’s just so wild!! People want to talk about studio/big corporation vs. writer issues, like she had absolutely no creative control or ability to choose who she had working on the show with her, and completely ignore the fact that she was entertaining a r**p fetishist??? It feels like an extremely bad joke. If she can’t vet people well enough, or be bothered to vet them at all, maybe she shouldn’t be making a show in the first place. Any other problems the show might have become irrelevant in the face of something like this. Not engaging with or hiring people like that is the BARE minimum, especially in a professional setting. Give me a break.
@@folasade5453 That's what bothers me about the masses. Especially with the 8 episodes. The same writing issues what were in the pilot are in S1 and not just HH but also HB. Viv does have a voice in her show. There's nothing wrong of the fact that she needs help, however her ignoring it is the problem. Time will tell though people have already started turning on her with the whole " HH is about females and HB is about men" lol.
I don't hate it, but I don't like that they did the same thing as in helluva boss, as in completely changing it's premise. HB was supposed to be about demons that kill people on earth for profit, and became story about bltizø, and moxxies trauma, stolas' broken marriage, and way too many villains. In the same way HH started as a story about hotel that try to redeem sinners that is run by the princess of hell, and again lost its plot, this time in the first episode
@@frog3630 the best thing is you can clearly see that thats not the case, helluva boss was keeping its theme for the majority of the first season, losing itself in ozzies (since then only episode they actually do their job is f-ing unhappy campers, and it is terrible and blitz is not even doing his job) and you can see that since they actually made them almost monthly they kept with the theme (until ozzies every episode was about either the team doing their job, or doing side quests for stolas to let them continue with their job). With hazbin you can feel that, as in second season of hb, longer hiatus made creators lost interest in their og premise as in from hotel for sinners to redeem themselves, with some heavenly intervention, and hell politics in the background, to hell politics and heavenly intervention as the main story with hotel as kinda useless plot device, so that there is a reason for those characters to be in one place.
@@frog3630 I mean, it WAS clearly going to build up to fighting the angels. The Extermination was always a ticking clock, and it always felt like 'overpopulation' was a poor excuse and a more sinister plan was obviously behind it. That said it was probably a consequence of being greenlit for *8* episodes. That was the story Viv had been working up toward so you had to make a decision-- do you do fluff pieces about the hotel and pray that you get renewed? Or do you make use of the time you know you've been given so if the worst happens you've at least told the important parts of the story? Obviously neither decision is ideal and unfortunately circumstances aren't going to matter so much in hindsight, this is what was produced and there's no going back to 'fix' anything.
I saw Losers Baby as a song about Husk trying to relate to Angel Dust even if they dont have the exact same situation. Something he does to make Angel feel more accepted and not alone. I think that's why I enjoy the song so much
“The issue of the show consistently writing these massive and dramatic story reveals and character moments that mean absolutely nothing because we don’t know these people yet” That was biggest problem with the show, there were so many points where I literally said out loud “I don’t know you”, “Who are you?”, “Why am I supposed to care about this?”
That's I been saying when they introduced to carmine camilla and the other overlords and for some reason, they already revealed her motive behind killing the angel for the sake of her daughters yet they just first appeared in the show and we supposed to care aon something we barely know about during the introduction.
S1 honestly feels like a s2. The writers skipped all of the wonderful juicy character establishing stuff in favor of shoving all the plot heavy shit way too soon and trying to introduce way too many characters in a incredibly short amount of time
@user-wx6ms9rv2m I mean fair, they needed more episodes absolutely. But also the writers chose to focus on the quantity of characters they wanted to introduce instead of the quality of the characters they already had. They made so many weird choices, especially since they knew they had limited episodes
@@nopeno-s5r Invincible is also on Amazon Prime and has the same episode count for each season, but I don’t see complaints about its pacing as widely as I do for this show. While your point isn’t invalid, the blame for HH’s pacing issues cannot be mostly blamed on the episode format (although I’d much prefer seasons with 20 episodes).
@@Victor-jv7ql Invincible wasn't pressured to fit nearly as much into those 8 episodes as HH was, hence why the pacing was much better. Especially with the honestly ridiculous 2 song quota, there wasn't much that could be done about the pacing. I still mostly blame prime video for the pacing, but it hopefully should improve in season 2
@@nopeno-s5r The director/screenwriters primarily decide how much plot and character stuff they want to put in those 8 episodes as well as the song quota. Some writers (like the writers of Invincible) can make a well-paced plot within that time, but you do have to sacrifice character introductions/developments to do so. In my opinion, Viv’s direction of HH Season 1 would be better-paced if the amount of side-characters were toned down or postponed for the next season.
It's such a shame honestly cause believe it or not, most people in that fandom are seriously super chill. But just like any other extremely popular fandom, the bad fans are INCREDIBLY obnoxious, chronically online and awful
as someone who've seen the show, I agree the fact there was just too much under too little. like 8 episodes for 1 whole season is not enough, it needed to be more, like we met Lucifer just after we were done with Angel's mental breakdown and it felt like too quick, I'm guessing it had to do with the fact that the people in charge wanted to make sure they pushed the show as quick as they could, but still. the show is a college landslide better than Helluva boss and their constant reliance on Daddy issues and horrible father figure's
The show is fun but that’s all it is. If you think about the writing for more than five seconds, everything falls apart. There are some baffling writing decisions in this show. Like Can we just acknowledge the fact that literally all of Angel dusts character development was done offscreen. Episode four is the start of his development and then we skip to episode six where he suddenly doing much better and is off of drugs despite the fact he was still doing them in episode five. This show has insane time jumps. Apparently nothing interesting happened for five months💀
The biggest issue for me relates to the Angel weapons. 1. No one in hell ever considered fighting back with their weapons till now. 2. Angles never thought their weapons could be used against them? That’s like police thinking their own guns can’t do damage to themselves. 3. Vaggie didn’t even consider this, despite one literally ripping out her wings and eye. That broke the world to such a degree for me, it’s such a reach.
The way I look at it, the plot moves like a stage musical does and it makes it so much better to me. Musical is a genre in itself and Hazbin fits it to a T
@@andriygriffin4782 Angelic weapons aren't common, since they only get what are basically leftovers from the exterminations And most sinners would most likely be hiding not looking for a fight And also, just because you have the weapon doesn't mean you will win the fight, angels still have wings All that combined it makes sense why it took so long for someone to discover this
Gonna comment on the Angel Dust section real quick. You are 100% right that the representation tore victims into two very vocal sides. I myself am not a sexual assault victim but I am a victim of sexual abuse (if you're asking what's the difference, in my case the word CP will tell you all you need to know). I resonate deeply with Angel Dust's specific character traits, mainly trying to justify and even glorify the abuse in your head while you know full well that you are drowning and actively being abused and exploited. It's the kind of side of abuse that doesn't get explored too much in animated media and I personally really appreciate this. I don't exactly remember who said it but I will share it on here. "Young abuse victims often can't tell the difference between offensive representation and representation that makes them uncomfortable because it mirrors their traumatic incidents." I think in this case, the representation was nowhere near perfect but it doesn't mean it was bad or offensive. Matters like this are ALWAYS gonna be nuanced because everyone's experiences are unique and the way they cope with and interact with the subject matter will depend on their own personal limits, TLDR: I very much believe this is positive representation to those who need it and for those who it triggers it's valid to stop watching the show, they have their own very valid limits.
It was one of my favorite scenes/episodes. I really like the fact that they dig their nails into the topic and showed how harsh it can be. Stories in video format can and should make use of the "show, don't tell" rule, and they did that. It made me uncomfortable for sure. I like the dark imagery they used and the pacing of this particular part. I just like dark themes in general and I enjoy feeling what the show is trying to get me to feel. I get that it can be a harsh topic for some people. Everyone has their own harsh topic they don't like, and everyone is entitled to their opinions and their experiences are valid. I won't watch one of Seth Mcfarlane's newer shows because it touched on a topic that very much mimics the same energy here with SA victims for me. In the show thereof just brushed that topic off the table making the narrative for that particular episode extremely hypocritical to its main point. To then crack jokes at that was insulting. It was horrid for me and the irony about it was the fact that the "antagonists" made a truly solid point and the writing team just said "nah. Leave it for the birds". Seth could have had a great moment there but blew it. So I get why Viz is getting backlash for the episode in question. I don't think that it's a reason for the show being a mess. Seth's show for me is unwatchable and I don't want to continue it. Doesn't mean the rest of the show was bad or a mess. I watched HH with my SO, and during that bit I was taken a back by it, and so was my SO, and they did however cry because they didn't want to see that kind of thing. They have gotten over it by now, but I thought I'd bring this up because they enjoy the show as much, if not more than me. I've been a long time fan of Viz. I have bought merch from her store and waited just as long as everyone else. My main complaint about the show was its pacing and the clear need for more episodes. It didn't help that their budget was laughably low compared to most other TV show budgets. I'm still going to call it an indie show until they get a better, larger budget comparable to other big network shows. HH was supposed to be more of a musical, and if you compare other musicals pacings then it starts to fit a little better, and I'm not much of a musical fan. Overall I think Cartoonshi went a bit harsh and I'm not sure they dwelled on it much thinking about possible nuances that could be behind each character's motivations. I can't wait to see what Alastor's grand plan is. You could see that he is hiding it behind that trademarked smile of his.
In my opinion I though angles S/A was okay…. Mostly because of the behind the scenes things with the creator, but also because they make and S/A joke somewhere else in the series with sir pentous, and moxie in her other show. This makes angles whole thing weird
One problem I have, that other people have mentioned, is why did Vaggie have to be the focus of Out for Love? I really enjoy the song, but one of Vaggie's biggest motivations has always been her love and support for Charlie. Soo...why did she need this song? Hazbin feels like they took multiple breaks between episodes in production cause so much of the time, things aren't matching up between episodes. Did I enjoy Hazbin, absolutely, the music especially, do I think it is a masterpiece? ...Ehhhmmm... It is fun, and a step in the right direction, but I wouldn't call it one of the top best animated show. Its an awesome musical, but the story left a lot to be desired
i think it’s because they were technically in a fight, just like, how at the same time charlie is asking rosie for advice it’s just that vaggie didn’t really ask for love advice just normal advice
i see people defending the author with a simple narrative of independent pure artist vs big bad corporation, but writers are ALWAYS going to be under some constrain, sure there's more and less cases of creative freedom, but all of them have to change and adapt to the screentime that is given to them (or rarely, chosen beforehand), i feel she failed at this because she had this story macerating in her head for years on end and couldn't bring herself to change this precious child
💯 agree. I think the best example of this is the season finale of the owl house. While it does fall flat in some areas mostly in the middle half. The writers understood their restraints and tried to work it on their limits and gave us the best finally we could.
@@SammyRobinson62232 oh i didnt see that series, but one of my faves is bojack horseman and apparently they were cut short with a sudden final season. But even in series like breaking bad or arcane, which had notorious big liberties the writing teams enjoyed, they had to write and rewrite and rewrite again until they had a well crafted thing in their own boundaries.
@@SammyRobinson62232 cutting the finale after your world has already built itself and cutting an entire story in half are two different things. Executive crap doesn't change the show but it does give a more empathetic perspective.
I feel like Vivzie’s determination to make Heaven the bad guys hurts the narrative. It felt like she agreed to show that “not all angels are bad” through gritted teeth, made Adam the main asshole and stopped at that. As a result, there is no substance to it. Who is in charge in Heaven? Is it Adam? Why? Isn’t he supposed to be the First Human, cast out from Heaven for losing his innocence? Where is Eve then? If divorces are technically allowed in Heaven, why there is a Sinner child in Hell? If Heaven is hypocritical and conservative with its inhabitants acting inappropriately and being foul-mouthed, then why is openly homophobic and mean Kathie Killjoy in Hell? It’s just a mess. Especially, we know that good people go to Heaven -- and the bar for goodness isn’t that high because a cynical inventor who saved countless lives but charged money for this (this was shown as his biggest flaw) and also was suicidal was allowed into Heaven. So, at the core of his being he was a good person and that's what counted. There are several ways the show could have handled it: 1) Making Heaven not antagonistic and actually sympathetic. Like yes, redemption is still on the table -- Sinners just stopped caring for it. No, no one is sent to Hell for being less than perfect. Yes, everybody knows about Exterminations and it’s a forced measure because while Sinners don’t die, the demonic energy keeps accumulating and it may result in a potentially apocalyptic event. Heaven can’t exactly drag Sinners into redemption kicking and screaming -- it has to be their choice to make. But it’s Heaven’s duty to maintain balance and the rulers of Hell stopped picking up the phone to discuss potential solutions, which led to Heaven addressing the matter at hand. Exorcists aren’t even “alive”, more like homunculi or robots sent to do a mission. Also, Angels don’t see Exterminations as evil because…Hell is a shitty place. Killings, enslavement, and sexual abuse happen left and right, and almost every sinner is a horrible person. And the worst thing -- they can’t even die, instead either possessing furniture or getting consumed by stronger Sinners. How getting granted final death is supposed to be worse than being killed, maimed, dismembered - but never able to fully die? Maybe Angels even point out the flaw in Charlie’s logic, explaining her that what she is doing, is making Sinners self-improve, which isn’t exactly redemption. For instance, when she offers them to observe Angel Dust, one of the Angels pulls out a scroll documenting his former life and gasps, informing Charlie about Angel Dust’s list of kills and hits he performed while working for the mafia (yes he was a mafia gangster in his mortal life and this is what he went to Hell for) and explaining that this is where his problem lies. He never acknowledged what he did. He never expressed regret. And without it, redemption isn’t possible. So, yeah, they willingly provide Charlie with a clue because they aren’t against redemption, but they are still doubtful and inform her that without helping Sinners remember about redemption en masse, Exterminations will continue. And this is where Charlie realizes that she hasn’t really made any progress. She didn’t even scratch the surface of a REAL challenge. It’s much easier to make Angel Dust quit drugs and drinking than to convince him to face his actual sins. All this time, she focused on making Sinners be nice and act politely, while ignoring the reason why they were Sinners -- which would have been in character for her because she was born in Hell. She has never met all her charges before they became Sinners and the human element is a bit foreign to her. 2) Going the satiric route, but actually putting some effort into it and creating some real contrast. Like, if you want to make fun of religious conservatism and obsession with purity, why make Angels swear? Make them comically avoidant of saying bad words. Make their list of qualifiers for being allowed in Heaven extreeemely, intimidatingly long. Or maybe show them as extremely bureaucratic and old-fashioned, making most of the supposedly good souls wait in a cursedly long lines in Purgatory. Make their problem is allergy to changing rather than wanting to stay in power and being afraid of the Hell’s rebellion. No, they don’t even hate Sinners. They too simply forgot about such an option as redemption or how it should look like. That would give characters like Emily more purpose -- make her represent the “young blood” willing to improve Heaven and make it a friendlier place, make her the ones questioning and clashing with the old-school reps and challenging them. Because, well, non-sinners still go to Heaven and Vivzie’s Hell is still horrible. It’s not a good place and it’s not interested in becoming a better place where Sinners help each other. 3)Making Alastor the key villain behind the scenes. Because, come on! He was presented as shady, he used to be a serial killer and a cannibal (and honestly, I initially thought that that family of devil-worshipping cannibals from HB were meant to be his admirers and followers). Him appearing out-of-nowhere and folding Overlords in a relatively short time already creates a malicious premise, so the authors should have embraced it fully. I won’t believe that no one of the Overlords has ever fantasized about accumulating enough power to dominate Hell and destroy Heaven, to go beyond the limit. Make it Alastor’s ambition -- maybe he took his belief that he was always meant to decide who lives and who dies to his afterlife and is now obsessed with continuing his “work” on a greater scale. To give him even more reasons to think so highly of himself, they could have connected his serial killer and Radio Demon aspects by the fact that he was a radio host. He committed the murders and slipped away from justice, never leaving traces, always having an alibi at hand. And then he commented his own crimes on radio (“the Cannibal Killer strikes again it seems!…”), knowing that hundreds and thousands of people, his fans, were listening to his voice and looking forward to his broadcasts, blissfully oblivious to the fact that their beloved celebrity was the very horror making them afraid to go out at night. And if he never got caught and nobody ever found out or got proof that he was the killer even after his death (from natural causes), there is no way it didn’t give him a huge ego boost in Hell. Because even though Vivzie said that Alastor is supposed to be a Dexter-esque type of a serial killer (a psycopath with some self-imposed moral code and reservations), his behavior is more typical for realistic serial killers. He loves attention - and when he doesn’t get attention, he takes it. To the point he is willing to aggravate the Lord of Hell. He holds a lot of disdain for those weaker or “stupider” than him, which ties in well to classic serial killer’s superiority complex. He hates being treated like he treats his victims -- being helpless, almost dying, being reminded of his own “leash” instantly breaks his facade and shows the monster beneath. Because He should be the one doing the hurting, not the other way around -- this is how things supposed to be! Seriously, Alastor being a villain and the main threat makes so much sense in the context of all the things we know about him.
ALL of your ideas are great. But i don't think Viv is capable of such complex ideas, don't get me wrong i like her work, the character designs are great to me, the animation is a joy to look at, and the songs are incredible! But after watching helluva boss and hazbin first season, i don't really expect complex and deep writing in her shows, still gonna watch it for the other great thingsm
I love #3's point. A great character concept. Maybe we'll actually get some of it in show. #2's first paragraph makes me think of a book called Library of the Unwritten by A J Hackwith where unwritten books are in hell. There is a chapter with an angel at Heaven's Gates who is basically a customs agent, and he just watches a long line of people in what is essentially Purgatory (the area outside of heaven) waiting to get in, and he just WANTS IT TO END.
How did it hurt the narrative? Like we clearly see some real assholes in heaven and we also see good angels too. Like I am just focusing on the actual complaint and supposed issue here. That sinner child in hell was likely born there. Kathie is just bigotly homophobic...still deserves to be in hell for that. The show is a mess in areas but not in that.
Alastor's mixed signals work because he changes for the better, despite *not wanting* to change. You can see the difference between telling Nifty that he "could grow accustomed" to helping with the hotel, and his breakdown when he realizes he almost died doing that. Without a reminder, he's just hanging around, doing his job (telling Mimzie to leave), enjoying the company. Growing ever so slightly as a person. But he doesn't really realize it until he gets out of his fight with Adam. And then it scares him how easily he changed (despite the change being minor). And roasting Charlie in episode 7 is to show that the change so far has been minor. He still takes advantage of her vulnerability, but he noticeably tries to give her some advice. He rarely takes his eyes off Rosie (who he knows is also trying to manipulate Charlie), but lets them have a moment alone because he can't help with relationship drama (and because if he didn't, she wouldn't have been able to pitch her plan to the Cannibals).
I find this interesting. Alastor hasn’t changed for the better. If anything, he’s become worse. He’s still waiting for his chance to take advantage of the deal that he and Charlie made. Why do you think that Rosie has ulterior motives that contrast with his, though?
I'm glad to see that someone else sees Alastor ass not as black and white. I think he can be good and genuine, but is so far, still evil. And whatever they eventually decide for him is good enough for me (even though I'm rooting for him to become a genuine ally) I still wouldn't mind the (probably eventual) turn to him being the big villain he was hyped up as, and maybe by the end being shown mercy, and seeing a change in him. Idk. So many people I've seen react to Alastor JUST see him as evil, which while fair it could all be an act (and probably is) I believe that he isn't JUST evil, maybe just trapped in bad circumstances as well? We'll see.
@@Adam-326 not that contrast with his. But she may have well-been competition. Letting Charlie out of his grasp goes against his interests because he obviously wants her dependent on him. Were she not, he wouldn't have gotten a deal out of her in episode 7. Letting other powerful figures help her weakens that perceived dependence. And Rosie gains Charlie's trust a lot faster than Alastor had.
@@ginghinaandrei5013 Also, regarding Rosie, I don’t think that she even has any ulterior motives at all, now that I think about it. Based on how Vivienne writes other characters like Lucifer, Asmodeus, Beelzebub, Stolas, Mammon etc., she always makes their whole “deal” pretty obvious. Like, there’s never been a “oh, this guy was bad/good all along” moment, ya know. I don’t think that either of the shows had set someone up to be good/bad and then surprised the viewers, if that means sense. I don’t think that that’s her style.
@@ginghinaandrei5013 What I meant by "contrast with" is essentially "that go against." I understand your point, but I don’t think he wants Charlie to be dependent on him, specifically. It seems more like he wants her trust. Had she trusted him more, she might have been more willing to make that deal in Episode 7. Rosie gained her trust more quickly because Charlie approached her in a desperate situation, and because Alastor made it a point to keep saying, that he didn’t care about Charlie, her plans, the hotel, or redemption from the moment he showed up there until the moment he randomly decided to one-up her father. I do actually like your theory, but I doubt that the show is heading in that direction. Alastor and Rosie appear to be on the same page, at least for now. If that changes, it wouldn’t be because of Rosie.
As a survivor of the childhood unspeakable, I had mixed feelings on episode 4. I am in agreement with many of your statements on it though, especially the loser baby song. I completely agree with everything you said there. I understood the message of "Stop feeling sorry for yourself and try to make your life better" but angel is in one of the worst spots, if not, THE WORST SPOT, to ever be in. As for the poison sequence... it was difficult to watch. The song is catchy, but that's basically it. Any time something obscene was about to happen I just had to look away, hearing how miserable he is to have to participate in it but having no choice so he's going to at least *try* to put an 'enjoyable', for lack of a better word, spin on it. I believed the poison sequence was a message. About the sick and traumatizing nature of all of it. Not glad about it, but glad that the message was being made to people. And then you said it's a r*** fetish for the writer... my God, I nearly vomited right there.
Forgive me, but speaking of questionable fetishes of the writer of episode 4, are you talking about Adam Neylan? Because I can't find any information about him.
As a storywriter and an author, I believe the show needed a LOT more work with writing. The season needed more content such as filler episodes, and a lot of the songs needed to be changed tonal wise and some needed to be cut. But the writing style, ideas, and the art was stellar
I definitely agree. The musicals kept ignoring the principle of “show don’t tell”. Vaggie’s exposure of her as a fallen angel was meaningless because it did not affect her relationship with Charlie. The musicals need to stop giving minor characters like Emily and Carmilla their time to shine as sudden important characters because we should learn through their dialogues and actions instead.
They are not consistent with the premise of where angels and demons would go after they die. Sir Pentious’ “death” causes a huge confusion because it defeats Charlie’s main goal of wanting demons to go to heaven.
as someone who is a victim of SA 26:56 I agree with this. It honestly makes me sick and it is sucky Viv even let them on the show. Like there is one thing if they were just a random fan who did fanart then it's like what ever gross but it can be ignored. She let this person write for the show knowing all of this. So yes, viv is to blame for this. This person should have never been in charge of this part of the show!. It sours any kinda of "good" it may have tried to convey for that one fact alone. It can never be respectful for the sole fact it was made by someone who takes our trauma as a k*nk.
I am so happy to see comment section that mostly dislikes it like me. I've seen so much praise of it for daring to depict sa despite the fact the depiction itself kind of falls apart the more you pick at it. sure the intent was never to make anyone feel uncomfortable but i have seen so SO many videos from people who just praise the show no matter what because the intentions were good and that's all that matters. If you want to have a person like that on your show fine do what works. but to give them the very specific scenes of angel being outright assaulted is less than a coincidence that more people need to call out instead of skimming by.
@@fortnite5205 Exactly! I agree! If they wanted them on the show they should have ether just stuck to val or other characters and work, Angel should have been the one character they stood away from. And like this isn't new news. Raf has been very open about their k*nk for years, even in their DA days, they would write SA with their oc and Thrax and then said oc joins them in a crime of evil after being SA and kills their family. And it's like bro this is not the person who should be writing the "empowering SA survivor" character.
@@fortnite5205 How does it fall apart? I`ve seen people praise and criticize it, not just the intentions but the execution too. How is not not just a coincedence?
I definitely agree with most of your points and although I respect your opinion nonetheless, I have to disagree about Loser Baby. I didn't get "Hey Angel my gambling addiction is just as bad as your SA and we're both losers because of it" at all from it, and more Husker trying to show Angel that the first step to getting better is admitting that you're at rock bottom which means admitting that, well, you're a loser. Admitting that the situation you're in is really bad, but that you're not alone in it. It's two broken people (broken by two COMPLETELY different things) bonding over the fact that their lives (or deaths ig) are f*cked but that they at least have some company. Especially with the lyric "It's time to lose self loathing. Excuse yourself, let hope in, baby" I cannot in any way see that song as anything but a song about forgiving yourself and starting your first steps on your way to healing. Not to mention the song was written by a survivor (Sam Haft talked briefly about it on his twitter). As someone currently still healing from a past of abuse, I think the song and what its trying to convey is 10x better and more accurate than if they went the generic "Hey man it's gonna be ok just love yourself
I gotta agree with you. Besides isn't the point of someone like Valentino to make their victims feel like they have nothing and no one? Or give some kind of false hope? So having Husk who, while not in the exact same situation, empathizes about feeling hopeless and shows Angel that he isn't alone, despite how Valentino tries to make him feel.
@@TheRealHeroKnightAnnoyance is not a reason to scorch a person alive or make them feel shitty over their opinion. And this is coming from someone that tends to disagree with a lot of Cartoonshii's takes.
The interesting thing about hazbin though is that it was always planned to have 8 episodes for the first season from the beginning. The only difference was it was originally gonna be more episodic in the sense it was gonna focus more the main cast than juggling literally everything at once and keeping the story moving forward. hell Lucifer was originally planned to be shown off at the season finale than in the middle of the season. So while the show was kinda robbed of its potential it may not have entirely been on a24 or Amazon for how the first season was handled
I, however, heard the opposite, that is, that Viv initially wanted to make a first season consisting of 22-24 episodes instead of 8. Are you sure of what you say?
I mean, technically yes? The more well-known apostles have confirmed historicity. I don’t know if Vic cares about that, though. She usual takes things in a different direction.
My guys, have you ever seen a portrait of Jesus in another culture? They have always changed his race and that of his followers based on what the artist most identifies with lol.
@@MewDeniseYes, technically. Of course, whether or not St Peter's stories are true is up to debate, but there are records that show that a person like him existed. And while I understand everyone in Heaven looking youthful, I kinda wish they have him keep a beard (think Obi Wan Kenobi in the prequels). Also, him looking bright yellow and having blue eyes is jarring.
@@christopherchartier3017 some dude goes by the name Verbalase spent around $50k (or $47k from what I've heard) on softcore nsfw animation of him and the mc of Hazbin Hotel
Helluva Boss: What we think it’s about: Demons killing humans for pay. What it’s actually about: Blitzo and Stolas drama. Hazbin Hotel: what we think it’s about: Redeeming sinners what it’s actually about: Heaven vs. Hell well, at least vivzie is consistent I suppose
I think you might be missing what happens when a place gets overpopulated. Overpopulation breeds unrest which breeds resentment and discontent and those two breed insurrection.
fantastic review and THANK YOU for bringing up the SA discourse from episode four. That's a particular sticking point for me as someone who i thought i could trust essentially mocked my abuse because I admitted that Raph working on the Poison sequence made me uncomfortable😭 Hazbin discourse brings the worst out in people i swear
It’s great that you made this video cuz it’s so refreshing seeing someone properly critique the show as a fan of Viviziepop’s work. Like it gets tiring on Twitter seeing some people just ragebait about the show through secondhand ooc clips like act like the show is a terrorist attack on animation for easy clicks. While Hazbin Hotel is flawed and I myself didn’t care for it, I always prefer a more informative and concise analysis of the show’s plot and characters rather than just shitting on the show for a couple lazy jokes.
On an unrelated note, I took your advice! I've sunk almost 20 hours in Yakuza Kiwami (most of those hours where just dicking around in substories and Majima Everywhere lmao) but I still LOVE it!
@@dremcrak5647 I'm a fan of action games, like DMC or Wonderful 101. So Yakuza seemed interesting to me. I starded out by emulating the original on ps2, but then I got a new gaming pc, letting me upgrade to Kiwami.
Honestly the biggest bit of character writing that bothers me is Charlie just getting over vaggie being an exorcist so fast and then vaggie getting her wings back????? I still have no idea why that even happened, it makes no sense and it feels like something that was just added for the sake of cool visuals, like an edgy animatic you’d make in middle school
I feel like the message of Loser Baby was less that they’re in the exact same situation and more that Angel doesn’t need to keep up a facade 24/7 because he has people who can understand him and won’t judge him
That’s the feeling I got, we aren’t the same but we’re both deep in the pit, angel being deeper. All of it trying to point out that looking down won’t help and that you have to start looking up to ever get out
Yeah I had the same interpretation, but I also had no idea about any of the controversies before watching the show, so I have to wonder how much the context shapes how people interpreted it
I feel like Husk was just trying to tell Angel that he can relate to him and understand him. (even tho Husk's situation is nowhere close Angel's of course)
I think the 1st season could've been almost perfect if they had 10-15 episodes instead of 8, remade the pilot into the actual first episode and saved the Heaven stuff for S2. Then episode 2 can introduce the Vees and make them the main antagonists of S1. Valentino was already kinda like that for Angel's character so why not take Alastor's and Vox's rivalry further. After that you can turn Velvette into a foil to another character at the hotel, perhaps Vaggie or Charlie. More episodes would also mean more time to flesh out and connect with the characters. Angel got his own episode but it would've been great if that was the same case for Pentious, Husk and Niffty. Maybe even Cherri. And the main focus of the season (other than dealing with the Vees and their bs) could've been what the pilot showcased: trying to redeem sinners. And the question whether redemption is possible at all. S1's conclusion could've been the meeting with Adam and Lute telling Charlie that the extermination is happening sooner than ever before. That would create a sense of urgency for S2 and the need to redeem sinners as fast as possible before the angels arrive. Lucifer's introduction and the trip to Heaven (Emily, Sera etc.) should've been in S2 I think. Then you can introduce the other overlords, let them play a bigger part in the battle against Adam's forces. Also the fact that Heaven only cares about control should be revealed here, not at the beggining of the show. The battle that takes places in episode 8 would be the perfect way to end S2 and tease S3 with the redemption of Pentious and the introduction to Lilith. I think this show is great and a love it wholeheartedly but sure enough, it has some flaws. The main problem is obviously the pacing and how fast the show moves and character arcs being rushed. But I look forward to Season 2 and hope they manage to fix the problems I have with S1.
I think you’ve really got a good point here… this pacing would have been much better. At this point, I’m thinking season two is going to be the season one we should have had, with character-focused episodes.
this isn't the first time Vivzie shows a concept for a show and then goes off the trails like Helluva Boss was supposed to be a show about demons assassinating humans but now it's about the complicated relationship between royalty and a peasant (Blitzo with Stollas and Fizzarolli with Mammon)
I honestly didnt know Charlie and Vaggie were girlfriends until we meet lucifer and Charlie says so because I had nothing to go off of for their relationship besides that song, that painted vaggie as her guardian. Like that's your girlfriend and you have no other motivation but to protect her? Then with Angel and Val, Angel spent the first couple episodes ignoring val's numerous calls and texts, i guess the idea being that if the hotel works out, angel wont need porn. then all of a sudden angel's like "my boss is calling me I gotta go." Like what? Why now and not before?
Not gonna lie, the first moment that Vaggie appeared on the screen, I asked my friend (who was introducing the show to me) if they were girlfriends. I didn't even know this show had gay representation going in, so I personally would argue that it was obvious especially with how sweetly Vaggie worried about Charlie and how fondly she said she enjoyed Charlie's theatrics. I'd assume the only reason people wouldn't catch on that would be if they just assumed every close relationship between girls was platonic until obviously proven otherwise by a direct statement or an action like a kiss (which, I don't blame anyone for cause that's how it usually _is_ cause of ingrained homophobia in society) And for Angel and Val, I assumed it was a "move back here and start living here again" vs a "we're doing another shoot today, be here right away" or "did you forget you had a shoot today?" situation, but you are right, it was very odd.
Lets just all remember Vivienne lied about Raph being an SA victim and then turned around when confronted with that like "Well actually I am an SA victim" After you liednonce, i dont trust you. I dont believe her
Yk something I feel? A lot of vivzie's work's premises would work a lot better as episodics. Helluva boss got cerebus syndrome and by extention, seasonal rot and flanderization by season two (happy campers my beloathed) and Honestly? Hazbin could have been cool as a fosters home for imaginary friends type show. And also, HH is a display of why shows need filler.
I’m so so sorry for you getting the brunt from the insane Hazbin fans, any fandom that a sizeable amount seem to be tribalisms that hate any constructive criticisms of what they hold as absolute should be avoided, it’s a toxic pit.
I said this to one of my friends and I will say it again: Hazbin feels like a Highlight reel, a highlight reel of a really amazing show that unfortunately doesn't exist. I keep my hopes up to season 2, tho not too high
As for episode 4. I’m no SA so I can’t say whether or not it tackled the subject matter poorly. I personally thought it got serious when there’s no humour or music involved during the abuse Angel Dust received from Val. So I thought it was good for what it executed. I can understand your point and I agree about the Loser music, that the weight Angel Dust had to go through shouldn’t be compared with Husk’s gambling issues. But my take on that music is not that they’re comparing who has it worse or they’re equally bad in what circumstances they’re in. Rather, it’s to find a common ground that they’re not alone at being in a terrible state they’re in. If what I said makes sense. However, seeing Vivziepop defending someone, who have fetishes on shipping abusers, who wasn’t SA survivor doesn’t give good image on her
Critizing a show isn’t a critique on you as a person. If you feel personally attacked whenever someone critiques a piece of media (good or bad), then do us all a favor. Find whoever raised you, tell them they failed, give them your phone/tablet/laptop and touch grass for the rest of the day.
I think the reason why Viv has such toxic fans is due to the fact that so many of her topics are “edgy” and so a large majority or even a loud minority act “edgy” and so react by telling people to kill themselves, calling someone xphobic etc It’s like trying to criticise a film or show with a gay or black main character. You can’t do it without controversy because so many of those fans only care for the excuse to feel superior by liking something that isn’t good. Ultimately Hazbin Hotel is hopefully the future of entertainment but its fans will never change as long as the show discusses such controversial topics
THANK YOU for pointing out that the storyboarder for poison unashamedly had a fetish for Angel and Valentino. It’s something that youtubers like “Just Stop” seem to leave out and it feels rather insensitive
....Just Stop didn't Leave that out, though. He acknowleged this fact, but also said that the scene itself does not fetishize SA. He also talked to plenty of SA survivors and they said that how the show portrayed these scenes were very realistic. If you can separate art from artist, this scene doesn't diminish the impact of the message the episode is making.
@@MaxHumphreysMaxHumphreysThere will never be a way to perfectly portray a scene like this, and I do agree that they did a nice job with the scene despite the people who made it, however it doesn’t change the fact that putting a person with a r/pe fetish (who apparently hasn’t even been through that trauma themselves) is a decision made in poor taste at best. Not to mention Vivienne being overly aggressive in her responses about the entire thing and supposedly even lying about it. It may not have overtly affected the show, but it’s a valid thing to criticize.
@@ftrwrwbg FR. With every new show it feels like more people are forgetting that art like cartoons take aspects of reality and are not exact representations. Artistic and creative liberty seem to be becoming less free.
Personally having an unfinished show (one cut short) that is well written is 10x better than a rushed show, because one you can look back on and think about all that could happen next (if it gets brought back) but the other would leave you unsatisfied. I hope Hazbin's pacing gets better next season because that is my biggest issue with it.
Feels like the series was written to be 12-13 episodes, but because streaming has been cutting costs and fucking over everyone, they could only give them 8, and the crew had to squeeze everything they could into those episodes
Can I also acknowledge that Vaggie regaining her wings makes no sense the more you think about it? She regrows her wings but not her missing eye? How come she wasn’t able to do that for years? And if we were to chalk it up to some “power of love” bs, how come Vaggie didn’t regain her wings and eye when she and Charlie first fell in love? And how come Vaggie never told Charlie about any of this, even though they were deep into their relationship such that their deepest secrets are shared amongst each other? And apparently angels can be killed by basic-ass weapons now. Cool. So much for all of that buildup over the idea that angelic weapons can kill angels. The regeneration of missing body parts makes no sense. And when Lute had to rip off her arm to climb out of the rubble and cradle a dying Adam, how come she didn’t regrow her arm? It was implied that she and Adam had something more going on between them.
I completely agree and respect with your thoughts on the show. I liked it a lot and I’ve been waited for it for 5 years. Ever since I first watched the pilot release when I was in middle school, I loved hazbin hotel, but the show does has its flaws. Hopefully season two fixes these issues, but I still really like the show. Thank you so much for pointing these problems out, another great video as always.
I am very excited because there's a rumor going out that we're going to see the true big bad of the series her name is roo I don't know you're a heard of her
I applaud you for making this vid! Was very entertaining and took a lot of courage to tackle this subject again, sorry for your bad experiences but thank you for the thoughtful analysis
Finally! Someone able to put into words, my aversion to the Loser Baby song. If it was helpful for anyone, then that’s great and I am so happy for anyone who felt supported by this song. No one should ever take that away from them. But I have personally been shut down by other people telling me “well everyone has problems” and “I’m not special.” Because yeah, their bf/gf cheating on them is totally the same as me being SA’d repeatedly as a child. I think this song is *trying* to come from a place of solidarity, trying to show people they aren’t alone. Which is great. A far better message than to invalidate one person’s trauma just because other people have trauma. But it really left a sour taste to basically call Angel a loser for what he has done to him, and then compare that to Husk who is a loser for what he does. I’m open to different perspectives of course. I want to like this song and get something good out of it.
I don't think you're a loser just because of the things that happened to you, in fact, far from it. Angel didn't kill himself and I think that takes strength, Husk too
Husk was calling him a loser because of his self-destructive tendencies, not because of what was done to him, I think. Like, Husk never had a problem with AngelDust's personality, it was him ignoring his boundaries and putting on a fake mask that brought more trouble, and it was okay to be "loser" with people that won't judge him for it.
I think the decision for making hazbin’s pilot cannon was a cost cutting measure. Since they were only given 8 episodes they probably made the choice to keep the pilot cannon as a free episode 0 that set up all the characters so that they can jump right into their plot. The faults in that decision is showing since it’s been 5? Years since it’s been made and the show has been changed since then
39:50 I'm glad more and more people call out Vs part in finale, they LITERALLY DONE NOTHING and no power gap was created unless Al being hurt implies this powergap, but 1) he wasn't shown to be very landlord based Overlord and 2) he's still alive and escaped from Adam, so very premature celebration from Vox
the first season should about the three V's being the main antagonist , the second is about meeting adam and lute and the rest of the heaven , the third we would get to see lucifer and liliths history and the lore behind , fourth is about heaven finally deciding to change for their and hell's better . i feel like the first season is more like watching second season .
I’ve been very confused about why the angels just left their weapons in hell after the extermination. Like they are afraid of hell overthrowing them right. So why would they just leave them weapons? Did they just assume they were invincible? Because if that’s the case why should they even be scared of an overthrow to begin with?. If they didn’t think they were invincible and just assumed that those weapons specifically couldn’t hurt them, why did no one check that? Because to me if they are just that incredibly stupid that just makes it hard to take them convenient to begin with. This isn’t a rhetorical question I genuinely have no idea, my only explanation is that it’s just a plot hole or bad writing because I genuinely can’t think of any other reasons.
It’s a huge plothole. Like, it was established in the pilot and lore that Angels just leave their weapons when they’re done. It felt like a move born out of power-based confidence: they knew their own weapons wouldn’t even scratch them, they have plenty more back in Heaven and also they knew that Sinners would pick them up and use them to kill each other which makes their job even easier. And then it turns out that actually Angels can be killed by their own weapons and they kept leaving their weapons in Hell WHILE KNOWING THEY CAN BE KILLED BY THEIR OWN WEAPONS. Given that Exterminations are supposed to be a secret, wouldn’t periodically “losing” your weapon and needing a new one raise suspicions? But wait, it gets even stupider if we consider how Vaggie ended up stranded in Hell. Why would Lute just leave her to die in Hell instead of dragging her corpse back to Heaven? Wouldn’t a dead or dying Angel in Hell, give Overlords some funny ideas? Also, a crippled and banished Angel has some powerful motivation to spill every secret she knows to Sinners and also tell them how to kill Angels. It’s not a risk worth taking but seemingly Lute was aware that The Plot was on her side. Seriously, the more I think about it, the greater the plothole gets.
@@pokerface4396 oh damn thank you for the very detailed answer, I don’t have anything else to add in terms of what you said you covered all grounds haha. Honestly I can understand and even look past some plotholes in media, like it happens and it’s not a big deal a lot of the time, but this is like related to the entire conflict of the goddamn show and it’s born due to a plot hole, that’s just a bit too hard to ignore for me 😭
So Vaggie having to be taught that the Angel's biggest weakness is the fact that they think they're invincible and fight recklessly because of it, paired with Adam literally saying "That's how they can kill us? With our own weapons?!" Wasn't enough to clue you into the fact that Angels didn't know, and therefore did not care about leaving their weapons in Hell?
Ngl this show slapped I am in no way plugged into this shows fanbase and I’m not on Twitter I remember seeing the pilot like 4 years ago and really enjoying it so now seeing it fully I absolutely loved it, genuinely such a fun show
So many songs from this mini-series -- ESPECIALLY the slower ballads -- made me want to tear my hair out. Especially the Carmilla and Vaggie song. WHO ARE YOU? WHY ARE YOU SINGING? WHAT IS HAPPENING???
Thank you for treating the topic of SA with the respect it deserved. RUclipsrs who haven’t suffered through SA keep saying how people are ‘sensitive’, so thank you for not blaming twitter and not invalidating victims.
37:15 alastor is taunting her, she is angry and demotivated. When people are angry they often say things they dont mean and considering his stated reason for being there and that he always smiles this is a pretty reasonable reaction.
I love Vox, he’s such a perfectly powerful and pathetic villain to the show. Especially when his Angelic Security System TAKES CONTROL OF SQUIDWARD’S HOUSE-
I think what they where trying to go for in the loser baby song, was how angel does say that he sold himself to valentino willingly and how in a twisted way, is reaping what he sowed with trusting him, but I totally get what cartoonshi means when he says he doesn't like it
One thing, Angel Dust has at least 6 arms, but he can "Hide" 4 of them, in the last chapter we see him actually taking out 2 more arms while protecting the egg.
I had three major issues with Hazbin Hotel: 1, the Exorcists are incompetent for leaving their Angelic Weapons in the battlefields for Carmine to collect despite knowing they can harm them like when they used them on Vaggie when they exiled her. (And they let her KEEP her Angelic Spear like idiots). 2, they did nothing to differentiate the Sinners that Charlie wanted to save and send them up to Heaven. So we have no choice but to assume that Charlie wants to help EVERYONE out of their Eternal Punishment, regardless of whatever Heinous Crimes they committed. Thereby making Charlie the most Evil Character in the show. (Step aside Alastor). 3, they removed GOD from Creation, despite using Lucifer Morningstar, Adam the First Man, Lilith, Adam's First Wife, and Saint Peter. This is exactly like the scene from Family Guy when Albert Einstein knocks out God and steals his shrinky dinks.
I think they WANTED to do more with the concept, got told “you have eight episodes to setup the rest of your show” and you can just feel the writers and animators internally wanting to strangle execs to death while working on this. This show would’ve been so much better with 16 episodes.
I truly just hope that season 2 will have more episodes. Hopefully season 1 was just like a weird corporate viewer poll to see if they "deserve" more episodes for the story.
There are too many characters and Adam felt more like a season 2 villain if anything. The Vs would be more suited for season 1 antagonists and I think Viv fucked up rushing this stuff.
I totally agree with your opinion on Loser Baby. I am very, very lucky to not have been SA'ed, but it has come close in the past and because of that I have terrible hypersexuality. so I am NOT going to talk about this as a victim of SA, but as someone who can still relate to the common coping mechanisms. healthy and unhealthy. I think a better way it could've been handled was by giving some similarities to Angel and Husk's situations. Gambling debts, especially in the 70s when Husk died, could be paid off in "other ways". husk being in a corner at one point and having to use his "assets" to pay off said depts, with it eventually being too much that he had to ask Alastor for help wound fit better with Angel's situation (would also get rid of husk being an overlord that made no sense). him going "I know you have it worse than me, but I went through something similar" would not only make Loser Baby feel not weird and forced, but would be a reason for them to have a stronger bond. Their healing together is better than the unhealthy coping mechanism both characters have. I know it seems extreme, but I think it would feel a bit more natural and personal for the characters.
Loser baby is about them healing together tho lmao. And the overlord thing will prolly come into play later, there’s no reason to redo Husk’s whole backstory
As a sa victim i think ep 4 is horrible it feels so gross especially when someone who STORYBOARD THIS WITH A R@PE KINK. Its disgusting. Im honestly so disgusted by this episode, i wish they handled it better it could've of been great.
Because independent animators are more well taught. Studios usually don't have professional animators. And celebrities who don't do voice impressions in live action media tend to fail at voice acting. If that explains it.
20:42 This is about how I felt. Vaggie feeling insecure that she's not properly helping Charlie achieve her goal makes sense, but I feel like it could have used a little more build up. Her being so upset that she asks Charlie to be left alone for awhile felt odd. And don't get me started on Camilla. We've just met this lady, so her getting a big musical number about how she wants to protect her daughters has little impact when I haven't been allowed a chance to develop a connection to the character. I think this is a case where Vivzie knew the characters' motivations and backstory, but didn't consider that the audience wouldn't feel the same connection to her that she does. (I see that you addressed this, but this bugged me enough that I typed it out before getting further into the video) 31:30 Yeah, Vivzie apparently confirmed that Alastor was just trying to tick off Lucifer, and she's not sure how paternal he really is. But if that is his motivation, then I don't get the point of him looking annoyed at Lucifer displaying affection towards Charlie. 34:50 You focused on Vaggie being an angel and Angel Dust's character development, but I put "You Didn't Know" as the best example of how breakneck the show's pacing is. The dissent in Heaven should have played out over multiple episodes, not just one musical number. Seeing Emily go from being shocked at the existence of the exterminations to singing alongside Charlie about how Heaven is a lie feels really jarring. 37:32 I know Alastor is meant to be an ambiguous character, but the show's occasional hints that he's growing genuinely fond of the hotel feel like they clash with scenes such as him threatening Husker or his part in the finale song that point towards the conclusion that he's genuinely bad news. A character can have conflicting desires, and maybe this is setting up a plot development where Alastor has to choose between his ambitions and his budding friendships, but I still wonder how cohesive his character is going to feel once we reach the end of his arc. 40:00 Their part of the song did feel odd. Since Alastor reveals his survival soon afterwards, the power vacuum they talk about doesn't exist. At most I could believe that Rosie has lost a lot of resources because of the cannibals that died during the fight, but they make it sound like the effects of the battle were farther ranging than they actually were.
Angel Dust: angel's abuse was shoved into a song and 5 minutes of an episode; i feel like he deserved more backstory and i wish we got to see more of how val was treating him. Husk: okay this one makes my blood boil because we got around 3 MINUTES to see how alastor treated husk and they also came out with a bang saying that alastor owned husk. (i know before loser, baby husk talks a bit about his backstory of al owning him). i swear if we dont get more to the story of husk and al imma stop watching the show/hj Lucifer: why did lucifer just come out of no where? he was so random to pop up like all charlie did was call him and he came i think we deserved more story to where he was and how lilith was doing bcuz i have SO MANY QUESTIONS!! does lilith still live with him? does lucifer just not get calls from charlie? how did lucifer go over 10 years before knowing charlie had a girlfriend??? Sir Pentious (idk): DUDE THIS MAN NEEDS A BACKSTORY. my guy just popped up and said i wanna redemption and got redeemed(ik he didnt say that). HOW DID SIR PENTIOUS GET REDEEMED BEFORE ANGEL(KEEP IN MIND ANGEL WAS THEY'RE FIRST TARGET TO REDEMPTION). (i know sir pentious died first😔😔) More: If someone dies but they're already in hell are they in double hell?
Angeldusts arms didnt fall off. He had the ability to retract them. Other than that i completely agree. The show was good but as much as i loved it it could have been better. It couldve been longer and the new animation style did lose some of the style from the original. Nonetheless i really enjoyed it Also while i understand your views on episode 4 as an abuse survivor i found it refreshing and relatable. Yes it was a hard watch that made me cry but it was realistic and i found the way that it triggered me cathartic. I liked and loathed the poison sequence. Obviously i didnt want to see that but i respect it being in the show and i really understand what they were going for there and i think it really worked. As an abuse survivor struggling with depression i find loser baby to be wonderful. A lot of people in a similar situation find self deprication as a coping mechanism. And the message that 'everthing is not okay, and youre a mess but youre not alone in that' is super comforting. Sometimes all you need when youre in a dark place is to know youre not alone. The whole episodes shows that perfectly. I personally love episode 4
The animation is notably stiffer and more off shape. More limited color palette and simpler shading instead of gradient, giving a downgraded feel. Almost looks like this ToonBoom show is a Flash show.
I think this is by far the best video criticizing Hazbin. All of of your point are valid and well phrased and the video is well formatted. I can't say any of your points don't make sense and aren't well founded. Most importantly tho, you aren't over the top vitriolic or demeaning. I know the likelihood of you seeing this are next to none but I just wanted to say as a fan of the show, this was a great video and by far the best critique of Hazbin. Thank you for this.
As a victim of CSA episode 4 was very hard to watch I actually fast forwarded through a lot. Angel’s character making jokes about the situation is actually pretty accurate. It’s a dark situation and a lot of us victims do turn to dark humor or put on a false face just to be able to get through the day. No the writers didn’t handle it well and, that’s honestly because they’ve never been victims of SA. For me it actually physically hurt to watch. I had a tightness and pain in my chest because, I’ve had the same dead eye stare as Angel has in my eyes too.
The first season feels like it was at least two seasons' worth of plot shoved into the length of half a season.
I thought the same. It felt as if too much happened within the span of 8 episodes
And both of those last two episodes are mid cancel me i called chainsaw man ok
Finally someone said it
Agreed it should have been at least 12 episodes
I really think they needed to reduce the scope. It sucks, but that's what happens when you get serialized. They needed to prove they can deal with small budgets and short seasons IMO.
the main problem for me was that the show just needed MORE episodes. We keep getting shows with only 8-10 episode seasons now, and wish we could go back to days of 20 episode seasons.
I also understand the mindset of wanting to rush out and tell your story, especially in a time now where big wigs just love to cancel shows left and right despite critical aclaim. I will NEVER forgive netflix for ditching inside job
I really agree so much
There are a lot of factors responsible as to why that's as many episodes as we're getting now. And frankly, I don't ever see it changing.
I disagree, it just needed to be more focus, if you dont focus your story it doesnt matter the amount of episodes
Especially with a show like Hazbin, I feel like it needs episodes that focus on the characters and just smaller adventures to balance out the story driven stuff with the angels and get to delve into it more.
Then she shouldn't have been so ambitious tbh
I love how people's main complaint on Hazbin hotel is that we wanted MORE episodes about it. Like this is good, but what would be better? Even MORE of Hazbin Hotel.
MORE exploration & explanation of this world/lore of it
MORE character centric episodes before things hit the fan with heaven
MORE building of the bonds & dynamics between characters, especially with making it feel more like a found family as they claim to be.
MORE focused on the ways that people can be REDEEMED/facing their literal & metaphorical inner demons 😈 and sins. Especially if they want to be redeemed enough to go INTO HEAVEN!
Not a rushed story, no time skips of 5 months between 2 episodes like episode 5 and 6
It's a musical. They can't write 40 songs per season.
Also given how Helluva Boss also seems to rush to get to all the big moments, I seriously don’t think having more episodes would’ve been a fix necessarily. Both shows are notorious for skipping all the small character moments to make us care for the big moments
@thatonea-hole It’s been confirmed in a live stream that season 2 will explore more of the main casts past and how they got into hell
It's good that he immediately acknowledged most of the shows plot related flaws are due to getting less episodes than needed, more importantly that it was a studio decision.
Fuckin corporate bitches ruin everything
It ain't a last minute decision for the season to be 8 episodes though. I mean couldn't vizzie rewrite some things so that the series wouldn't be as rushed as an afterthought school project?
@@christopherhosein9288the problem with these shows is that they fear they won't get renewed for a second season, so they shove in as much as they can.
@@janecklyn true
and also the fear of your show being randomly canceled for seemingly no reason (e.g. inside job)
I think the low episode count hurt more because it took 4 FUCKING years to release such a short season.
I thought they were also working on season 2 at the same time as season 1. also story changes, character designs and the pandemic made it take longer
I am of the opinion that a 12+ episode season would fix majority of the shows problems.
Now you know what it’s like to be an Invincible fan
It was supposed to get a 20+ episode, but Prime wont let them
@@fireironthesecond2909 thats so real
39:04 yeah they did sir pentious dirty with how they killed him. They could have fixed it by just having sir pentious fire the laser that he was charging and maybe even have it do decent damage to Adam resulting in him losing half his mask and THEN have Adam blast him while making a remark on how he actually felt that.
imagine the beam firing just as adam turns around to look, and he's forced to try to tank the laser, eventually deflecting it and hitting pentious with the beam
@@TippedScale that also would have worked much better than what they went with. The weapon didn't even have to do damage to Adam just annoy/burn his clothes a bit and it still would have been far better than what we got.
I mean I thought it was kind of a fitting end to sir Pentious
@@nicholasaugello2534 the end itself with him sacreficing himself to help his newfound family/friends is good but it's the execution with the show treating his final stand as a joke with Adam just blasting him before Sir Pentious could do anything and then expecting us to feel bad later after the battle that is kida bad.
@@nicholasaugello2534 because as I said earlier Sir Pentious didn't even need to do any damage to him just distract him/annoy him but the way they did it Sir Pentious final stand was pretty much a fart in the wind.
In my interpretation, it's that "Loser, Baby" isn't necessarily saying that Husk and Angel's situations are one-to-one, it's that they both have self-destructive ways of coping, but it doesn't necessarily help that we haven't yet gotten an expansion on Husk and Alastor's relationship. The two aren't one-to-one necessarily because Angel's situations are more severe, rather that his relationship with Valentino has parallels to real abusive relationships, whereas Husk, while he could be at risk of being killed by Alastor(though whether or not double death has severe consequences is yet to be seen), their relationship is purely fictional, being the results of a magical deal.
Yeah I saw the song as not just "we're the same you and me" but "you're fucked but you're not alone." *Granted* the 1st one is also what they were going for so I see why people are rubbed the wrong way alongside other issues. -why would you get someone with a SA kink to do the SA sequence, getting them to do literally anything else would've been fine-
@@dollzoThat same person literally confesses themselves that they weren't SA'd
I mean...Dusker is definately basically a slave to Alastor so yeah.
I don’t really have a complaint with the lyrics in the song, it’s actually kind of catchy although since it’s catchy I kind of hate angel dust’s… iffy part of the song.
That’s my point too
Vivziepop is the type of writer who would take the SpongeBob pilot, Help Wanted, and find a way to squeeze the Chum Bucket, Sandy Cheeks’ debut, and Boating School all within the first episode.
This isnt just a problem with Hazbin and it’s 8 episode run. Helluva Boss and from what I’ve heard, her comic Zoophobia all have the same pacing problems.
I suspect there were behind-the-scenes/production reasons for why the pacing was so insane for Hazbin. IDK about her other stuff.
I don`t see how, maybe show Plankton but not everyone. Granted though Hazbin is more storyfocused then Spongebob obviously so there is that.
@@Jdudec367 fair enough but like Husk and Nifty definitely should’ve been episode 2 material instead of having them hastily added in the last few minutes. Barely any time to get to know them.
@@cordyceps7531 Fair...although blame the pilot I guess since it introduced them at the very end.
@@Jdudec367 i am blaming the pilot. My whole point is comparing how Hazbin squeezes way too much into it's pilot whereas spongebob only included a few recurring elements before it gradually introduced more episode by episode.
The thing about Vaggie not know angelic weapons could hurt angels isn't a nitpick is a HUGE plothole.
Tbf she was hurt by another angel, not a sinner or hellspawn.
Pretty sure that is the point, but it should have been made clearer.
She was hurt by an angel , she didn't know angels could be harmed by demons
@@comradejellobiafra4638 She said she didn't know an angel could be hurt at all. Even if there was some doubt about who had to wield the weapon she's an angel which would mean at the very least she could hurt an angel with her spear.
@@lumityviktuuristanartist4100 they should have made it clear in her dialogue because in isolation it obviously implies she didn't know they could be hurt at all.
just make Carmilla say "did you know angels can be harmed by sinners?" it's easy
I believe the main problem with that was just poor choice of wordings to clear up what exactly Vaggie meant; "I didn't know they could get hurt by demons like Carmine" would've fixed the confusion so simply.
One thing I think makes both Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss so weird to watch is the fact that the creator sucks at actually using her story engines.
Story engine is pretty much a broad outline of what the show is about. Let’s take like a sports anime. It has a very simple story engine: they play sports. Of course between the games they’ll do training and bonding while dealing with personal issues, but you can expect an actual match to take place every few episodes.
Helluva Boss is about killing people for clients who went to hell. You would expect the main group to go to earth and do their assassination gigs every few episodes, with personal issues sprinkled within. But instead, there is a “forbidden love” romance story which takes up space, clogging the engine.
Hazbin Hotel. It’s about redeeming sinners. You would expect the main group to try helping a sinner becoming a better person, with personal issues sprinkled within. But instead, it’s a grand story of hell fighting against heaven with the hotel as set dressing.
Well said.
True enough. I may be a fan but I can acknowledge that they don't really have much of a formula about how to approach what is assumed to be the main premise. I have never heard the term "story engine" before though! I like it. I should start using that.
Honestly I'm a really big fan of how the engines of both shows change a lot.
It keeps me more at the edge of my seat, it makes the world seem more vibrant, and piques my imagination as to what other kinds of stories can be explored in future episodes.
I disagree, VIv really doesn`t suck at using her story engines.
Like yeah the romance in Helluva Boss takes up space but it`s still assassins too.
As for Hazbin Hotel...well no actually it very much is about redeeming sinners, the fight against Heaven is a thing but that isn`t the focus for most episodes even in episode 6 it`s about showing heaven that redeeming sinners is possible.
And how is that bad? Lol, its an excellent plot
THANK YOU for bringing up how Viv straight-up lied about Raph being an SA survivor as a shitty attempt to deflect controversy. It's such an obviously godawful thing she did and I never see ANY youtubers talking about it, it's so frustrating. The fact that he had to clarify a second time that he's not a survivor directly because she caused so much confusion about it is wild.
I haven't watched the video yet
It is such an insane thinh to hear, i though he was
It’s been driving me crazy that this is the only video I’ve seen so far that even brings it up. It really is enough for me to not give a crap about this show or anything else she does, she is NOT fit to engage with the public if she’s lying about something as serious as SA so casually. It’s disgusting, and I’m failing to understand how so many people have just ignored it.
@@folasade5453 I know, right??? I think because so many of the HH/HB reviewers are firmly on the fandom/standom side, they just refuse to bring it up since it's literally inexcusable, and they just wanna paint Viv as this innocent lil' lamb that can do no wrong. :/ This isn't even the first time she's been caught in a lie, and yet so many people still put her on a pedestal for some stupid reason.
@@quilaviper It’s just so wild!! People want to talk about studio/big corporation vs. writer issues, like she had absolutely no creative control or ability to choose who she had working on the show with her, and completely ignore the fact that she was entertaining a r**p fetishist??? It feels like an extremely bad joke. If she can’t vet people well enough, or be bothered to vet them at all, maybe she shouldn’t be making a show in the first place. Any other problems the show might have become irrelevant in the face of something like this. Not engaging with or hiring people like that is the BARE minimum, especially in a professional setting. Give me a break.
@@folasade5453 That's what bothers me about the masses. Especially with the 8 episodes. The same writing issues what were in the pilot are in S1 and not just HH but also HB. Viv does have a voice in her show. There's nothing wrong of the fact that she needs help, however her ignoring it is the problem. Time will tell though people have already started turning on her with the whole " HH is about females and HB is about men" lol.
I don't hate it, but I don't like that they did the same thing as in helluva boss, as in completely changing it's premise. HB was supposed to be about demons that kill people on earth for profit, and became story about bltizø, and moxxies trauma, stolas' broken marriage, and way too many villains. In the same way HH started as a story about hotel that try to redeem sinners that is run by the princess of hell, and again lost its plot, this time in the first episode
I would just prefer them to be about what they promised to be about
i said this on another video and fans kept telling me “wELL tHaT wAs aLwAyS tHE pLAn” like that makes it any better.
@@frog3630 the best thing is you can clearly see that thats not the case, helluva boss was keeping its theme for the majority of the first season, losing itself in ozzies (since then only episode they actually do their job is f-ing unhappy campers, and it is terrible and blitz is not even doing his job) and you can see that since they actually made them almost monthly they kept with the theme (until ozzies every episode was about either the team doing their job, or doing side quests for stolas to let them continue with their job). With hazbin you can feel that, as in second season of hb, longer hiatus made creators lost interest in their og premise as in from hotel for sinners to redeem themselves, with some heavenly intervention, and hell politics in the background, to hell politics and heavenly intervention as the main story with hotel as kinda useless plot device, so that there is a reason for those characters to be in one place.
@@frog3630 I mean, it WAS clearly going to build up to fighting the angels. The Extermination was always a ticking clock, and it always felt like 'overpopulation' was a poor excuse and a more sinister plan was obviously behind it.
That said it was probably a consequence of being greenlit for *8* episodes. That was the story Viv had been working up toward so you had to make a decision-- do you do fluff pieces about the hotel and pray that you get renewed? Or do you make use of the time you know you've been given so if the worst happens you've at least told the important parts of the story? Obviously neither decision is ideal and unfortunately circumstances aren't going to matter so much in hindsight, this is what was produced and there's no going back to 'fix' anything.
@@MmeCShadow i’m not talking about hazbin hotel i meant helluva boss
I saw Losers Baby as a song about Husk trying to relate to Angel Dust even if they dont have the exact same situation. Something he does to make Angel feel more accepted and not alone. I think that's why I enjoy the song so much
“The issue of the show consistently writing these massive and dramatic story reveals and character moments that mean absolutely nothing because we don’t know these people yet”
That was biggest problem with the show, there were so many points where I literally said out loud “I don’t know you”, “Who are you?”, “Why am I supposed to care about this?”
That's I been saying when they introduced to carmine camilla and the other overlords and for some reason, they already revealed her motive behind killing the angel for the sake of her daughters yet they just first appeared in the show and we supposed to care aon something we barely know about during the introduction.
I didn't watch the pilot on RUclips and struggled to care about anyone, there are too many characters trying to do too many things
S1 honestly feels like a s2. The writers skipped all of the wonderful juicy character establishing stuff in favor of shoving all the plot heavy shit way too soon and trying to introduce way too many characters in a incredibly short amount of time
I wonder who caused that.
I'm sure no major corporation was at fault here...
@user-wx6ms9rv2m I mean fair, they needed more episodes absolutely. But also the writers chose to focus on the quantity of characters they wanted to introduce instead of the quality of the characters they already had. They made so many weird choices, especially since they knew they had limited episodes
@@nopeno-s5r
Invincible is also on Amazon Prime and has the same episode count for each season, but I don’t see complaints about its pacing as widely as I do for this show. While your point isn’t invalid, the blame for HH’s pacing issues cannot be mostly blamed on the episode format (although I’d much prefer seasons with 20 episodes).
@@Victor-jv7ql Invincible wasn't pressured to fit nearly as much into those 8 episodes as HH was, hence why the pacing was much better. Especially with the honestly ridiculous 2 song quota, there wasn't much that could be done about the pacing. I still mostly blame prime video for the pacing, but it hopefully should improve in season 2
@@nopeno-s5r
The director/screenwriters primarily decide how much plot and character stuff they want to put in those 8 episodes as well as the song quota. Some writers (like the writers of Invincible) can make a well-paced plot within that time, but you do have to sacrifice character introductions/developments to do so.
In my opinion, Viv’s direction of HH Season 1 would be better-paced if the amount of side-characters were toned down or postponed for the next season.
Let's hope the response from the fan base is a little better than last time
Knowing this fandom most likely not
It's such a shame honestly cause believe it or not, most people in that fandom are seriously super chill. But just like any other extremely popular fandom, the bad fans are INCREDIBLY obnoxious, chronically online and awful
Sadly I doubt it
I wouldn't count on it.
It won't be
as someone who've seen the show, I agree the fact there was just too much under too little. like 8 episodes for 1 whole season is not enough, it needed to be more, like we met Lucifer just after we were done with Angel's mental breakdown and it felt like too quick, I'm guessing it had to do with the fact that the people in charge wanted to make sure they pushed the show as quick as they could, but still. the show is a college landslide better than Helluva boss and their constant reliance on Daddy issues and horrible father figure's
The show is fun but that’s all it is. If you think about the writing for more than five seconds, everything falls apart. There are some baffling writing decisions in this show. Like Can we just acknowledge the fact that literally all of Angel dusts character development was done offscreen. Episode four is the start of his development and then we skip to episode six where he suddenly doing much better and is off of drugs despite the fact he was still doing them in episode five. This show has insane time jumps. Apparently nothing interesting happened for five months💀
I really love Episode 4 so much. All my issues with the season it begs for more episodes.
The biggest issue for me relates to the Angel weapons. 1. No one in hell ever considered fighting back with their weapons till now. 2. Angles never thought their weapons could be used against them? That’s like police thinking their own guns can’t do damage to themselves. 3. Vaggie didn’t even consider this, despite one literally ripping out her wings and eye. That broke the world to such a degree for me, it’s such a reach.
The way I look at it, the plot moves like a stage musical does and it makes it so much better to me. Musical is a genre in itself and Hazbin fits it to a T
@@andriygriffin4782 Angelic weapons aren't common, since they only get what are basically leftovers from the exterminations
And most sinners would most likely be hiding not looking for a fight
And also, just because you have the weapon doesn't mean you will win the fight, angels still have wings
All that combined it makes sense why it took so long for someone to discover this
@@trylvie4981
Please don't disrespect musicals. They can be pretty great.
Gonna comment on the Angel Dust section real quick. You are 100% right that the representation tore victims into two very vocal sides. I myself am not a sexual assault victim but I am a victim of sexual abuse (if you're asking what's the difference, in my case the word CP will tell you all you need to know). I resonate deeply with Angel Dust's specific character traits, mainly trying to justify and even glorify the abuse in your head while you know full well that you are drowning and actively being abused and exploited. It's the kind of side of abuse that doesn't get explored too much in animated media and I personally really appreciate this.
I don't exactly remember who said it but I will share it on here. "Young abuse victims often can't tell the difference between offensive representation and representation that makes them uncomfortable because it mirrors their traumatic incidents." I think in this case, the representation was nowhere near perfect but it doesn't mean it was bad or offensive. Matters like this are ALWAYS gonna be nuanced because everyone's experiences are unique and the way they cope with and interact with the subject matter will depend on their own personal limits,
TLDR: I very much believe this is positive representation to those who need it and for those who it triggers it's valid to stop watching the show, they have their own very valid limits.
It was one of my favorite scenes/episodes. I really like the fact that they dig their nails into the topic and showed how harsh it can be. Stories in video format can and should make use of the "show, don't tell" rule, and they did that.
It made me uncomfortable for sure. I like the dark imagery they used and the pacing of this particular part. I just like dark themes in general and I enjoy feeling what the show is trying to get me to feel.
I get that it can be a harsh topic for some people. Everyone has their own harsh topic they don't like, and everyone is entitled to their opinions and their experiences are valid. I won't watch one of Seth Mcfarlane's newer shows because it touched on a topic that very much mimics the same energy here with SA victims for me. In the show thereof just brushed that topic off the table making the narrative for that particular episode extremely hypocritical to its main point. To then crack jokes at that was insulting. It was horrid for me and the irony about it was the fact that the "antagonists" made a truly solid point and the writing team just said "nah. Leave it for the birds". Seth could have had a great moment there but blew it.
So I get why Viz is getting backlash for the episode in question. I don't think that it's a reason for the show being a mess. Seth's show for me is unwatchable and I don't want to continue it. Doesn't mean the rest of the show was bad or a mess.
I watched HH with my SO, and during that bit I was taken a back by it, and so was my SO, and they did however cry because they didn't want to see that kind of thing. They have gotten over it by now, but I thought I'd bring this up because they enjoy the show as much, if not more than me.
I've been a long time fan of Viz. I have bought merch from her store and waited just as long as everyone else. My main complaint about the show was its pacing and the clear need for more episodes. It didn't help that their budget was laughably low compared to most other TV show budgets. I'm still going to call it an indie show until they get a better, larger budget comparable to other big network shows. HH was supposed to be more of a musical, and if you compare other musicals pacings then it starts to fit a little better, and I'm not much of a musical fan.
Overall I think Cartoonshi went a bit harsh and I'm not sure they dwelled on it much thinking about possible nuances that could be behind each character's motivations. I can't wait to see what Alastor's grand plan is. You could see that he is hiding it behind that trademarked smile of his.
In my opinion I though angles
S/A was okay…. Mostly because of the behind the scenes things with the creator, but also because they make and S/A joke somewhere else in the series with sir pentous, and moxie in her other show. This makes angles whole thing weird
I hope you are happy and living a good and blessed life. 💗 Those who harmed you will face justice ans karma one way or another.
Cartoonshi doesn't think hazbin hotel is perfect, time to put an Aztec curse upon him and his bloodline. May Tezcatlipoca be your doom.
WE GOTTA DOXX HIM 😢
That's not good enough. He needs to get the Pharaoh's Curse as well
We shall bring a plague upon his house
How unforgivable
firing squad
One problem I have, that other people have mentioned, is why did Vaggie have to be the focus of Out for Love? I really enjoy the song, but one of Vaggie's biggest motivations has always been her love and support for Charlie.
Soo...why did she need this song?
Hazbin feels like they took multiple breaks between episodes in production cause so much of the time, things aren't matching up between episodes.
Did I enjoy Hazbin, absolutely, the music especially, do I think it is a masterpiece?
...Ehhhmmm...
It is fun, and a step in the right direction, but I wouldn't call it one of the top best animated show. Its an awesome musical, but the story left a lot to be desired
i think it’s because they were technically in a fight, just like, how at the same time charlie is asking rosie for advice it’s just that vaggie didn’t really ask for love advice just normal advice
i also can't take the lyric "i know you're thirsting for vengeance, vaggie" seriously cos like,, *since fucking when?*
i see people defending the author with a simple narrative of independent pure artist vs big bad corporation, but writers are ALWAYS going to be under some constrain, sure there's more and less cases of creative freedom, but all of them have to change and adapt to the screentime that is given to them (or rarely, chosen beforehand), i feel she failed at this because she had this story macerating in her head for years on end and couldn't bring herself to change this precious child
💯 agree. I think the best example of this is the season finale of the owl house. While it does fall flat in some areas mostly in the middle half. The writers understood their restraints and tried to work it on their limits and gave us the best finally we could.
@@SammyRobinson62232 oh i didnt see that series, but one of my faves is bojack horseman and apparently they were cut short with a sudden final season.
But even in series like breaking bad or arcane, which had notorious big liberties the writing teams enjoyed, they had to write and rewrite and rewrite again until they had a well crafted thing in their own boundaries.
@@SammyRobinson62232 cutting the finale after your world has already built itself and cutting an entire story in half are two different things. Executive crap doesn't change the show but it does give a more empathetic perspective.
This exactly.
I feel like Vivzie’s determination to make Heaven the bad guys hurts the narrative. It felt like she agreed to show that “not all angels are bad” through gritted teeth, made Adam the main asshole and stopped at that. As a result, there is no substance to it.
Who is in charge in Heaven? Is it Adam? Why? Isn’t he supposed to be the First Human, cast out from Heaven for losing his innocence? Where is Eve then? If divorces are technically allowed in Heaven, why there is a Sinner child in Hell? If Heaven is hypocritical and conservative with its inhabitants acting inappropriately and being foul-mouthed, then why is openly homophobic and mean Kathie Killjoy in Hell?
It’s just a mess. Especially, we know that good people go to Heaven -- and the bar for goodness isn’t that high because a cynical inventor who saved countless lives but charged money for this (this was shown as his biggest flaw) and also was suicidal was allowed into Heaven. So, at the core of his being he was a good person and that's what counted.
There are several ways the show could have handled it:
1) Making Heaven not antagonistic and actually sympathetic. Like yes, redemption is still on the table -- Sinners just stopped caring for it. No, no one is sent to Hell for being less than perfect. Yes, everybody knows about Exterminations and it’s a forced measure because while Sinners don’t die, the demonic energy keeps accumulating and it may result in a potentially apocalyptic event. Heaven can’t exactly drag Sinners into redemption kicking and screaming -- it has to be their choice to make.
But it’s Heaven’s duty to maintain balance and the rulers of Hell stopped picking up the phone to discuss potential solutions, which led to Heaven addressing the matter at hand. Exorcists aren’t even “alive”, more like homunculi or robots sent to do a mission. Also, Angels don’t see Exterminations as evil because…Hell is a shitty place. Killings, enslavement, and sexual abuse happen left and right, and almost every sinner is a horrible person. And the worst thing -- they can’t even die, instead either possessing furniture or getting consumed by stronger Sinners. How getting granted final death is supposed to be worse than being killed, maimed, dismembered - but never able to fully die?
Maybe Angels even point out the flaw in Charlie’s logic, explaining her that what she is doing, is making Sinners self-improve, which isn’t exactly redemption. For instance, when she offers them to observe Angel Dust, one of the Angels pulls out a scroll documenting his former life and gasps, informing Charlie about Angel Dust’s list of kills and hits he performed while working for the mafia (yes he was a mafia gangster in his mortal life and this is what he went to Hell for) and explaining that this is where his problem lies. He never acknowledged what he did. He never expressed regret. And without it, redemption isn’t possible. So, yeah, they willingly provide Charlie with a clue because they aren’t against redemption, but they are still doubtful and inform her that without helping Sinners remember about redemption en masse, Exterminations will continue. And this is where Charlie realizes that she hasn’t really made any progress. She didn’t even scratch the surface of a REAL challenge. It’s much easier to make Angel Dust quit drugs and drinking than to convince him to face his actual sins. All this time, she focused on making Sinners be nice and act politely, while ignoring the reason why they were Sinners -- which would have been in character for her because she was born in Hell. She has never met all her charges before they became Sinners and the human element is a bit foreign to her.
2) Going the satiric route, but actually putting some effort into it and creating some real contrast. Like, if you want to make fun of religious conservatism and obsession with purity, why make Angels swear? Make them comically avoidant of saying bad words. Make their list of qualifiers for being allowed in Heaven extreeemely, intimidatingly long. Or maybe show them as extremely bureaucratic and old-fashioned, making most of the supposedly good souls wait in a cursedly long lines in Purgatory.
Make their problem is allergy to changing rather than wanting to stay in power and being afraid of the Hell’s rebellion. No, they don’t even hate Sinners. They too simply forgot about such an option as redemption or how it should look like.
That would give characters like Emily more purpose -- make her represent the “young blood” willing to improve Heaven and make it a friendlier place, make her the ones questioning and clashing with the old-school reps and challenging them. Because, well, non-sinners still go to Heaven and Vivzie’s Hell is still horrible. It’s not a good place and it’s not interested in becoming a better place where Sinners help each other.
3)Making Alastor the key villain behind the scenes. Because, come on! He was presented as shady, he used to be a serial killer and a cannibal (and honestly, I initially thought that that family of devil-worshipping cannibals from HB were meant to be his admirers and followers). Him appearing out-of-nowhere and folding Overlords in a relatively short time already creates a malicious premise, so the authors should have embraced it fully. I won’t believe that no one of the Overlords has ever fantasized about accumulating enough power to dominate Hell and destroy Heaven, to go beyond the limit. Make it Alastor’s ambition -- maybe he took his belief that he was always meant to decide who lives and who dies to his afterlife and is now obsessed with continuing his “work” on a greater scale.
To give him even more reasons to think so highly of himself, they could have connected his serial killer and Radio Demon aspects by the fact that he was a radio host. He committed the murders and slipped away from justice, never leaving traces, always having an alibi at hand. And then he commented his own crimes on radio (“the Cannibal Killer strikes again it seems!…”), knowing that hundreds and thousands of people, his fans, were listening to his voice and looking forward to his broadcasts, blissfully oblivious to the fact that their beloved celebrity was the very horror making them afraid to go out at night. And if he never got caught and nobody ever found out or got proof that he was the killer even after his death (from natural causes), there is no way it didn’t give him a huge ego boost in Hell.
Because even though Vivzie said that Alastor is supposed to be a Dexter-esque type of a serial killer (a psycopath with some self-imposed moral code and reservations), his behavior is more typical for realistic serial killers. He loves attention - and when he doesn’t get attention, he takes it. To the point he is willing to aggravate the Lord of Hell. He holds a lot of disdain for those weaker or “stupider” than him, which ties in well to classic serial killer’s superiority complex. He hates being treated like he treats his victims -- being helpless, almost dying, being reminded of his own “leash” instantly breaks his facade and shows the monster beneath. Because He should be the one doing the hurting, not the other way around -- this is how things supposed to be!
Seriously, Alastor being a villain and the main threat makes so much sense in the context of all the things we know about him.
ALL of your ideas are great.
But i don't think Viv is capable of such complex ideas, don't get me wrong i like her work, the character designs are great to me, the animation is a joy to look at, and the songs are incredible! But after watching helluva boss and hazbin first season, i don't really expect complex and deep writing in her shows, still gonna watch it for the other great thingsm
Amazon has most of the blame on this
Streams love cutting episodes
I feel like the vast majority of these ideas boil down to "I wouldn't have wrote it like they did, therefore it's wrong".
I love #3's point. A great character concept. Maybe we'll actually get some of it in show.
#2's first paragraph makes me think of a book called Library of the Unwritten by A J Hackwith where unwritten books are in hell. There is a chapter with an angel at Heaven's Gates who is basically a customs agent, and he just watches a long line of people in what is essentially Purgatory (the area outside of heaven) waiting to get in, and he just WANTS IT TO END.
How did it hurt the narrative? Like we clearly see some real assholes in heaven and we also see good angels too. Like I am just focusing on the actual complaint and supposed issue here.
That sinner child in hell was likely born there. Kathie is just bigotly homophobic...still deserves to be in hell for that.
The show is a mess in areas but not in that.
Alastor's mixed signals work because he changes for the better, despite *not wanting* to change. You can see the difference between telling Nifty that he "could grow accustomed" to helping with the hotel, and his breakdown when he realizes he almost died doing that.
Without a reminder, he's just hanging around, doing his job (telling Mimzie to leave), enjoying the company. Growing ever so slightly as a person. But he doesn't really realize it until he gets out of his fight with Adam. And then it scares him how easily he changed (despite the change being minor).
And roasting Charlie in episode 7 is to show that the change so far has been minor. He still takes advantage of her vulnerability, but he noticeably tries to give her some advice. He rarely takes his eyes off Rosie (who he knows is also trying to manipulate Charlie), but lets them have a moment alone because he can't help with relationship drama (and because if he didn't, she wouldn't have been able to pitch her plan to the Cannibals).
I find this interesting. Alastor hasn’t changed for the better. If anything, he’s become worse. He’s still waiting for his chance to take advantage of the deal that he and Charlie made. Why do you think that Rosie has ulterior motives that contrast with his, though?
I'm glad to see that someone else sees Alastor ass not as black and white. I think he can be good and genuine, but is so far, still evil. And whatever they eventually decide for him is good enough for me (even though I'm rooting for him to become a genuine ally) I still wouldn't mind the (probably eventual) turn to him being the big villain he was hyped up as, and maybe by the end being shown mercy, and seeing a change in him. Idk. So many people I've seen react to Alastor JUST see him as evil, which while fair it could all be an act (and probably is) I believe that he isn't JUST evil, maybe just trapped in bad circumstances as well? We'll see.
@@Adam-326 not that contrast with his. But she may have well-been competition.
Letting Charlie out of his grasp goes against his interests because he obviously wants her dependent on him. Were she not, he wouldn't have gotten a deal out of her in episode 7.
Letting other powerful figures help her weakens that perceived dependence. And Rosie gains Charlie's trust a lot faster than Alastor had.
@@ginghinaandrei5013 Also, regarding Rosie, I don’t think that she even has any ulterior motives at all, now that I think about it. Based on how Vivienne writes other characters like Lucifer, Asmodeus, Beelzebub, Stolas, Mammon etc., she always makes their whole “deal” pretty obvious. Like, there’s never been a “oh, this guy was bad/good all along” moment, ya know. I don’t think that either of the shows had set someone up to be good/bad and then surprised the viewers, if that means sense. I don’t think that that’s her style.
@@ginghinaandrei5013 What I meant by "contrast with" is essentially "that go against." I understand your point, but I don’t think he wants Charlie to be dependent on him, specifically. It seems more like he wants her trust. Had she trusted him more, she might have been more willing to make that deal in Episode 7.
Rosie gained her trust more quickly because Charlie approached her in a desperate situation, and because Alastor made it a point to keep saying, that he didn’t care about Charlie, her plans, the hotel, or redemption from the moment he showed up there until the moment he randomly decided to one-up her father.
I do actually like your theory, but I doubt that the show is heading in that direction. Alastor and Rosie appear to be on the same page, at least for now. If that changes, it wouldn’t be because of Rosie.
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
3:31 Pilot VS Show
7:03 Episode 1-2
19:43 Episode 3-4
29:54 Episode 5-6
35:18 Episode 7-8
40:36 Conclusion
As a survivor of the childhood unspeakable, I had mixed feelings on episode 4. I am in agreement with many of your statements on it though, especially the loser baby song. I completely agree with everything you said there. I understood the message of "Stop feeling sorry for yourself and try to make your life better" but angel is in one of the worst spots, if not, THE WORST SPOT, to ever be in.
As for the poison sequence... it was difficult to watch. The song is catchy, but that's basically it. Any time something obscene was about to happen I just had to look away, hearing how miserable he is to have to participate in it but having no choice so he's going to at least *try* to put an 'enjoyable', for lack of a better word, spin on it. I believed the poison sequence was a message. About the sick and traumatizing nature of all of it. Not glad about it, but glad that the message was being made to people.
And then you said it's a r*** fetish for the writer... my God, I nearly vomited right there.
While he’s in a rough spot, he doesn’t have to be alone in it, which is what the song was tryna say :)
Forgive me, but speaking of questionable fetishes of the writer of episode 4, are you talking about Adam Neylan?
Because I can't find any information about him.
no i think they were talking about raph, the main storyboard artist for the poison sequence
As a storywriter and an author, I believe the show needed a LOT more work with writing. The season needed more content such as filler episodes, and a lot of the songs needed to be changed tonal wise and some needed to be cut. But the writing style, ideas, and the art was stellar
I really hope that one day we get a look at what the production of this show was like.
I definitely agree. The musicals kept ignoring the principle of “show don’t tell”. Vaggie’s exposure of her as a fallen angel was meaningless because it did not affect her relationship with Charlie. The musicals need to stop giving minor characters like Emily and Carmilla their time to shine as sudden important characters because we should learn through their dialogues and actions instead.
They are not consistent with the premise of where angels and demons would go after they die. Sir Pentious’ “death” causes a huge confusion because it defeats Charlie’s main goal of wanting demons to go to heaven.
Here is the hugest problem for me adam that one is from the bible and im not going to say how much plot holes that has
@@hybridvenom9 oh trust me there are a lot of things wrong about it religion-wise, but I'm not here to debate about it
as someone who is a victim of SA 26:56 I agree with this. It honestly makes me sick and it is sucky Viv even let them on the show. Like there is one thing if they were just a random fan who did fanart then it's like what ever gross but it can be ignored. She let this person write for the show knowing all of this. So yes, viv is to blame for this. This person should have never been in charge of this part of the show!. It sours any kinda of "good" it may have tried to convey for that one fact alone. It can never be respectful for the sole fact it was made by someone who takes our trauma as a k*nk.
I am so happy to see comment section that mostly dislikes it like me. I've seen so much praise of it for daring to depict sa despite the fact the depiction itself kind of falls apart the more you pick at it. sure the intent was never to make anyone feel uncomfortable but i have seen so SO many videos from people who just praise the show no matter what because the intentions were good and that's all that matters. If you want to have a person like that on your show fine do what works. but to give them the very specific scenes of angel being outright assaulted is less than a coincidence that more people need to call out instead of skimming by.
Apparently that person's kink was a result of their trauma
@@fortnite5205 Exactly! I agree! If they wanted them on the show they should have ether just stuck to val or other characters and work, Angel should have been the one character they stood away from. And like this isn't new news. Raf has been very open about their k*nk for years, even in their DA days, they would write SA with their oc and Thrax and then said oc joins them in a crime of evil after being SA and kills their family. And it's like bro this is not the person who should be writing the "empowering SA survivor" character.
That person who sure have to be fired no matter what it takes!
@@fortnite5205 How does it fall apart? I`ve seen people praise and criticize it, not just the intentions but the execution too. How is not not just a coincedence?
Can’t wait for Twitter to lose their shit again.
I thought that was their default state :p
Isn't that website always having a meltdown?
Don’t worry, that’s their natural state (but seriously yeah I hope this RUclipsr will be okay)
Yeahhh :b
@BJJohnson98 that actually sums it up quite well
I definitely agree with most of your points and although I respect your opinion nonetheless, I have to disagree about Loser Baby. I didn't get "Hey Angel my gambling addiction is just as bad as your SA and we're both losers because of it" at all from it, and more Husker trying to show Angel that the first step to getting better is admitting that you're at rock bottom which means admitting that, well, you're a loser. Admitting that the situation you're in is really bad, but that you're not alone in it. It's two broken people (broken by two COMPLETELY different things) bonding over the fact that their lives (or deaths ig) are f*cked but that they at least have some company. Especially with the lyric "It's time to lose self loathing. Excuse yourself, let hope in, baby" I cannot in any way see that song as anything but a song about forgiving yourself and starting your first steps on your way to healing. Not to mention the song was written by a survivor (Sam Haft talked briefly about it on his twitter). As someone currently still healing from a past of abuse, I think the song and what its trying to convey is 10x better and more accurate than if they went the generic "Hey man it's gonna be ok just love yourself
I gotta agree with you. Besides isn't the point of someone like Valentino to make their victims feel like they have nothing and no one? Or give some kind of false hope? So having Husk who, while not in the exact same situation, empathizes about feeling hopeless and shows Angel that he isn't alone, despite how Valentino tries to make him feel.
Nah cartoonish is right.
@@colindowden2182how?
@@colindowden2182he's not right or wrong... It's an opinion
@@TheDiamondSlayer1 Which he's right.
Cartoonshi: *Says anything slightly negative about a popular show*
The entire Internet: And I took that personally.
@@TheRealHeroKnightAnnoyance is not a reason to scorch a person alive or make them feel shitty over their opinion. And this is coming from someone that tends to disagree with a lot of Cartoonshii's takes.
@@ehidk796 I never said to scorch the guy alive.
The interesting thing about hazbin though is that it was always planned to have 8 episodes for the first season from the beginning. The only difference was it was originally gonna be more episodic in the sense it was gonna focus more the main cast than juggling literally everything at once and keeping the story moving forward. hell Lucifer was originally planned to be shown off at the season finale than in the middle of the season. So while the show was kinda robbed of its potential it may not have entirely been on a24 or Amazon for how the first season was handled
Yeah. It is Viv's fault as well. She has no patience.
I, however, heard the opposite, that is, that Viv initially wanted to make a first season consisting of 22-24 episodes instead of 8. Are you sure of what you say?
@@Dr_PiscatellaWhere have you heard that? As far as I know the whole 8 episodes for season 1 was always planned.
Can anyone ever provide any kind of source
@@ftrwrwbgPfft imagine providing sources for Ur claims and not just making it up.
Here lies cartoonshi, who had an unpopular opinion about hazbin hotel.
The right opinion
Good riddance
@@czms922 Nah blud hated loser, baby. It is technically an unpopular opinion.
"My name is Cain and I'm your b1tch"
The show reception is pretty divided from what I have seen, so not sure Cartoonshi has the unpopular opinion
"St Peter? WHY IS HE A F(weezer)CKING ARIAN??!!!"
that joke made me laugh more than it shouldve 💀
WHO. CARES? Are these historical figures?
I mean, technically yes? The more well-known apostles have confirmed historicity. I don’t know if Vic cares about that, though. She usual takes things in a different direction.
My guys, have you ever seen a portrait of Jesus in another culture?
They have always changed his race and that of his followers based on what the artist most identifies with lol.
its a joke @@MewDenise 💀
@@MewDeniseYes, technically. Of course, whether or not St Peter's stories are true is up to debate, but there are records that show that a person like him existed.
And while I understand everyone in Heaven looking youthful, I kinda wish they have him keep a beard (think Obi Wan Kenobi in the prequels). Also, him looking bright yellow and having blue eyes is jarring.
Maybe if they have extra budget of $50k, then the show would've been better
Naa, there's no way someone would just drop $50k on Hazbin Hotel out of nowhere like that. Besides, that much would prob only cover a 3 min song!
@Bruh-ko8fl if you find it unfunny then just scroll. The video you're commenting on also made the same reference
Wait what happened?
@@christopherchartier3017 some dude goes by the name Verbalase spent around $50k (or $47k from what I've heard) on softcore nsfw animation of him and the mc of Hazbin Hotel
@@christopherchartier3017trust me, you don't wanna know
Helluva Boss:
What we think it’s about: Demons killing humans for pay.
What it’s actually about: Blitzo and Stolas drama.
Hazbin Hotel:
what we think it’s about: Redeeming sinners
what it’s actually about: Heaven vs. Hell
well, at least vivzie is consistent I suppose
I think you might be missing what happens when a place gets overpopulated. Overpopulation breeds unrest which breeds resentment and discontent and those two breed insurrection.
fantastic review and THANK YOU for bringing up the SA discourse from episode four.
That's a particular sticking point for me as someone who i thought i could trust essentially mocked my abuse because I admitted that Raph working on the Poison sequence made me uncomfortable😭 Hazbin discourse brings the worst out in people i swear
"Sike, you thought! Our premise doesn't mean jack!"
- The Opening To Very First Episode Of Hazbin Hotel
Yep, same shit with Helluva Boss as well
@@shadekerensky3691 At least they waited a season to pull the rug out.
@@Deadflower019 Fair enough. Yeah, I absolutely HATE how Vivziepop seems to NEVER be able to stick with a premise.
It’s great that you made this video cuz it’s so refreshing seeing someone properly critique the show as a fan of Viviziepop’s work. Like it gets tiring on Twitter seeing some people just ragebait about the show through secondhand ooc clips like act like the show is a terrorist attack on animation for easy clicks. While Hazbin Hotel is flawed and I myself didn’t care for it, I always prefer a more informative and concise analysis of the show’s plot and characters rather than just shitting on the show for a couple lazy jokes.
Title's a good way to sum it up. Lots of heart and talent, but not the greatest thing ever
On an unrelated note, I took your advice! I've sunk almost 20 hours in Yakuza Kiwami (most of those hours where just dicking around in substories and Majima Everywhere lmao) but I still LOVE it!
Holy crap, someone actually played yakuza or something
@@dremcrak5647 I'm a fan of action games, like DMC or Wonderful 101. So Yakuza seemed interesting to me. I starded out by emulating the original on ps2, but then I got a new gaming pc, letting me upgrade to Kiwami.
Now play their Fist of the North Star licensed game. I think it's still a PS4 exclusive.
Damn, another Yakuza enthusiast, I have played all the Yakuza series games even the spin off ones. I am very big fan of that series too.
The entire series is good.
Honestly the biggest bit of character writing that bothers me is Charlie just getting over vaggie being an exorcist so fast and then vaggie getting her wings back????? I still have no idea why that even happened, it makes no sense and it feels like something that was just added for the sake of cool visuals, like an edgy animatic you’d make in middle school
I feel like the message of Loser Baby was less that they’re in the exact same situation and more that Angel doesn’t need to keep up a facade 24/7 because he has people who can understand him and won’t judge him
That’s the feeling I got, we aren’t the same but we’re both deep in the pit, angel being deeper. All of it trying to point out that looking down won’t help and that you have to start looking up to ever get out
Yeah I had the same interpretation, but I also had no idea about any of the controversies before watching the show, so I have to wonder how much the context shapes how people interpreted it
I feel like Husk was just trying to tell Angel that he can relate to him and understand him.
(even tho Husk's situation is nowhere close Angel's of course)
I think the 1st season could've been almost perfect if they had 10-15 episodes instead of 8, remade the pilot into the actual first episode and saved the Heaven stuff for S2. Then episode 2 can introduce the Vees and make them the main antagonists of S1. Valentino was already kinda like that for Angel's character so why not take Alastor's and Vox's rivalry further. After that you can turn Velvette into a foil to another character at the hotel, perhaps Vaggie or Charlie. More episodes would also mean more time to flesh out and connect with the characters. Angel got his own episode but it would've been great if that was the same case for Pentious, Husk and Niffty. Maybe even Cherri. And the main focus of the season (other than dealing with the Vees and their bs) could've been what the pilot showcased: trying to redeem sinners. And the question whether redemption is possible at all. S1's conclusion could've been the meeting with Adam and Lute telling Charlie that the extermination is happening sooner than ever before. That would create a sense of urgency for S2 and the need to redeem sinners as fast as possible before the angels arrive. Lucifer's introduction and the trip to Heaven (Emily, Sera etc.) should've been in S2 I think. Then you can introduce the other overlords, let them play a bigger part in the battle against Adam's forces. Also the fact that Heaven only cares about control should be revealed here, not at the beggining of the show. The battle that takes places in episode 8 would be the perfect way to end S2 and tease S3 with the redemption of Pentious and the introduction to Lilith.
I think this show is great and a love it wholeheartedly but sure enough, it has some flaws. The main problem is obviously the pacing and how fast the show moves and character arcs being rushed. But I look forward to Season 2 and hope they manage to fix the problems I have with S1.
I think you’ve really got a good point here… this pacing would have been much better. At this point, I’m thinking season two is going to be the season one we should have had, with character-focused episodes.
this isn't the first time Vivzie shows a concept for a show and then goes off the trails like Helluva Boss was supposed to be a show about demons assassinating humans but now it's about the complicated relationship between royalty and a peasant (Blitzo with Stollas and Fizzarolli with Mammon)
I thought you weren't going to make a Hazbin video after what the fandom did with the last Hellaverse video, happy you didn't let them stop you.
I honestly didnt know Charlie and Vaggie were girlfriends until we meet lucifer and Charlie says so because I had nothing to go off of for their relationship besides that song, that painted vaggie as her guardian. Like that's your girlfriend and you have no other motivation but to protect her?
Then with Angel and Val, Angel spent the first couple episodes ignoring val's numerous calls and texts, i guess the idea being that if the hotel works out, angel wont need porn. then all of a sudden angel's like "my boss is calling me I gotta go." Like what? Why now and not before?
Not gonna lie, the first moment that Vaggie appeared on the screen, I asked my friend (who was introducing the show to me) if they were girlfriends. I didn't even know this show had gay representation going in, so I personally would argue that it was obvious especially with how sweetly Vaggie worried about Charlie and how fondly she said she enjoyed Charlie's theatrics. I'd assume the only reason people wouldn't catch on that would be if they just assumed every close relationship between girls was platonic until obviously proven otherwise by a direct statement or an action like a kiss (which, I don't blame anyone for cause that's how it usually _is_ cause of ingrained homophobia in society)
And for Angel and Val, I assumed it was a "move back here and start living here again" vs a "we're doing another shoot today, be here right away" or "did you forget you had a shoot today?" situation, but you are right, it was very odd.
Lets just all remember Vivienne lied about Raph being an SA victim and then turned around when confronted with that like "Well actually I am an SA victim"
After you liednonce, i dont trust you. I dont believe her
The show definitely has an interesting story to tell… they needed more time to tell it, though.
Yk something I feel? A lot of vivzie's work's premises would work a lot better as episodics. Helluva boss got cerebus syndrome and by extention, seasonal rot and flanderization by season two (happy campers my beloathed) and Honestly? Hazbin could have been cool as a fosters home for imaginary friends type show. And also, HH is a display of why shows need filler.
We waited nearly five years for just eight episodes 💀
As a new fan, I consider myself lucky for not having to wait even a week, cause I just found out this show existed when I saw it on Prime Video.
But the show was made in 1,5
correction, 4 years and 3 months
I’m so so sorry for you getting the brunt from the insane Hazbin fans, any fandom that a sizeable amount seem to be tribalisms that hate any constructive criticisms of what they hold as absolute should be avoided, it’s a toxic pit.
I said this to one of my friends and I will say it again: Hazbin feels like a Highlight reel, a highlight reel of a really amazing show that unfortunately doesn't exist. I keep my hopes up to season 2, tho not too high
As for episode 4. I’m no SA so I can’t say whether or not it tackled the subject matter poorly. I personally thought it got serious when there’s no humour or music involved during the abuse Angel Dust received from Val. So I thought it was good for what it executed. I can understand your point and I agree about the Loser music, that the weight Angel Dust had to go through shouldn’t be compared with Husk’s gambling issues.
But my take on that music is not that they’re comparing who has it worse or they’re equally bad in what circumstances they’re in. Rather, it’s to find a common ground that they’re not alone at being in a terrible state they’re in.
If what I said makes sense.
However, seeing Vivziepop defending someone, who have fetishes on shipping abusers, who wasn’t SA survivor doesn’t give good image on her
20:11 minecraft villager when you don't give him 2 emeralds for 3 carrots
Critizing a show isn’t a critique on you as a person.
If you feel personally attacked whenever someone critiques a piece of media (good or bad), then do us all a favor. Find whoever raised you, tell them they failed, give them your phone/tablet/laptop and touch grass for the rest of the day.
Is this aimed at cartoonshi?
@@yuistrawberrycake Most definitely not.
@@octavianjoseph8633 thank goodness
Why the hell did we retire the 20 episode season
Money~
The show might get cancelled while you’re working on it, so you need to be done asap to be allowed to publish your work
I think the reason why Viv has such toxic fans is due to the fact that so many of her topics are “edgy” and so a large majority or even a loud minority act “edgy” and so react by telling people to kill themselves, calling someone xphobic etc
It’s like trying to criticise a film or show with a gay or black main character. You can’t do it without controversy because so many of those fans only care for the excuse to feel superior by liking something that isn’t good.
Ultimately Hazbin Hotel is hopefully the future of entertainment but its fans will never change as long as the show discusses such controversial topics
THANK YOU for pointing out that the storyboarder for poison unashamedly had a fetish for Angel and Valentino. It’s something that youtubers like “Just Stop” seem to leave out and it feels rather insensitive
....Just Stop didn't Leave that out, though. He acknowleged this fact, but also said that the scene itself does not fetishize SA.
He also talked to plenty of SA survivors and they said that how the show portrayed these scenes were very realistic.
If you can separate art from artist, this scene doesn't diminish the impact of the message the episode is making.
What are you talking about?!?! Just Stop also pointed out that the storyboarder has a r*pe fetish
@@MaxHumphreysMaxHumphreysThere will never be a way to perfectly portray a scene like this, and I do agree that they did a nice job with the scene despite the people who made it, however it doesn’t change the fact that putting a person with a r/pe fetish (who apparently hasn’t even been through that trauma themselves) is a decision made in poor taste at best. Not to mention Vivienne being overly aggressive in her responses about the entire thing and supposedly even lying about it. It may not have overtly affected the show, but it’s a valid thing to criticize.
It’s a cartoon
@@ftrwrwbg FR. With every new show it feels like more people are forgetting that art like cartoons take aspects of reality and are not exact representations. Artistic and creative liberty seem to be becoming less free.
Personally having an unfinished show (one cut short) that is well written is 10x better than a rushed show, because one you can look back on and think about all that could happen next (if it gets brought back) but the other would leave you unsatisfied. I hope Hazbin's pacing gets better next season because that is my biggest issue with it.
Like firefly🥲
Careful toonshi, you might get assassinated
Feels like the series was written to be 12-13 episodes, but because streaming has been cutting costs and fucking over everyone, they could only give them 8, and the crew had to squeeze everything they could into those episodes
Can I also acknowledge that Vaggie regaining her wings makes no sense the more you think about it? She regrows her wings but not her missing eye? How come she wasn’t able to do that for years? And if we were to chalk it up to some “power of love” bs, how come Vaggie didn’t regain her wings and eye when she and Charlie first fell in love? And how come Vaggie never told Charlie about any of this, even though they were deep into their relationship such that their deepest secrets are shared amongst each other?
And apparently angels can be killed by basic-ass weapons now. Cool. So much for all of that buildup over the idea that angelic weapons can kill angels. The regeneration of missing body parts makes no sense. And when Lute had to rip off her arm to climb out of the rubble and cradle a dying Adam, how come she didn’t regrow her arm? It was implied that she and Adam had something more going on between them.
I completely agree and respect with your thoughts on the show. I liked it a lot and I’ve been waited for it for 5 years.
Ever since I first watched the pilot release when I was in middle school, I loved hazbin hotel, but the show does has its flaws. Hopefully season two fixes these issues, but I still really like the show. Thank you so much for pointing these problems out, another great video as always.
I am very excited because there's a rumor going out that we're going to see the true big bad of the series her name is roo I don't know you're a heard of her
@@animezilla4486oh! I actually never heard of her! Im excited too! Her name sounds familiar though, thanks for letting me know
I applaud you for making this vid! Was very entertaining and took a lot of courage to tackle this subject again, sorry for your bad experiences but thank you for the thoughtful analysis
Finally! Someone able to put into words, my aversion to the Loser Baby song.
If it was helpful for anyone, then that’s great and I am so happy for anyone who felt supported by this song. No one should ever take that away from them.
But I have personally been shut down by other people telling me “well everyone has problems” and “I’m not special.” Because yeah, their bf/gf cheating on them is totally the same as me being SA’d repeatedly as a child.
I think this song is *trying* to come from a place of solidarity, trying to show people they aren’t alone. Which is great. A far better message than to invalidate one person’s trauma just because other people have trauma.
But it really left a sour taste to basically call Angel a loser for what he has done to him, and then compare that to Husk who is a loser for what he does.
I’m open to different perspectives of course. I want to like this song and get something good out of it.
I don't think you're a loser just because of the things that happened to you, in fact, far from it. Angel didn't kill himself and I think that takes strength, Husk too
I think Husk was like: "You sold your soul? Me too. Its crap but we can get through this together". 😅
Husk was calling him a loser because of his self-destructive tendencies, not because of what was done to him, I think. Like, Husk never had a problem with AngelDust's personality, it was him ignoring his boundaries and putting on a fake mask that brought more trouble, and it was okay to be "loser" with people that won't judge him for it.
I didn’t think you would ever review this show after what happened, nice to see you decided to check it out in the end
I think the decision for making hazbin’s pilot cannon was a cost cutting measure. Since they were only given 8 episodes they probably made the choice to keep the pilot cannon as a free episode 0 that set up all the characters so that they can jump right into their plot. The faults in that decision is showing since it’s been 5? Years since it’s been made and the show has been changed since then
Kids watch the amazing digital circus
Teens watch murder drones
Young adults watch hazbin hotel
But real MEN watch eddsworld
I've never heard a better sentence
@@iceninjagames
Thanks bro
Oh I love Eddsworld 😊
Real shit tho
Am 13 I watch murder drones but the shippers are sometimes annoying as sh#t.
39:50 I'm glad more and more people call out Vs part in finale, they LITERALLY DONE NOTHING and no power gap was created unless Al being hurt implies this powergap, but 1) he wasn't shown to be very landlord based Overlord and 2) he's still alive and escaped from Adam, so very premature celebration from Vox
the first season should about the three V's being the main antagonist , the second is about meeting adam and lute and the rest of the heaven , the third we would get to see lucifer and liliths history and the lore behind , fourth is about heaven finally deciding to change for their and hell's better . i feel like the first season is more like watching second season .
I’ve been very confused about why the angels just left their weapons in hell after the extermination.
Like they are afraid of hell overthrowing them right. So why would they just leave them weapons? Did they just assume they were invincible? Because if that’s the case why should they even be scared of an overthrow to begin with?. If they didn’t think they were invincible and just assumed that those weapons specifically couldn’t hurt them, why did no one check that? Because to me if they are just that incredibly stupid that just makes it hard to take them convenient to begin with.
This isn’t a rhetorical question I genuinely have no idea, my only explanation is that it’s just a plot hole or bad writing because I genuinely can’t think of any other reasons.
It’s a huge plothole.
Like, it was established in the pilot and lore that Angels just leave their weapons when they’re done. It felt like a move born out of power-based confidence: they knew their own weapons wouldn’t even scratch them, they have plenty more back in Heaven and also they knew that Sinners would pick them up and use them to kill each other which makes their job even easier.
And then it turns out that actually Angels can be killed by their own weapons and they kept leaving their weapons in Hell WHILE KNOWING THEY CAN BE KILLED BY THEIR OWN WEAPONS. Given that Exterminations are supposed to be a secret, wouldn’t periodically “losing” your weapon and needing a new one raise suspicions?
But wait, it gets even stupider if we consider how Vaggie ended up stranded in Hell.
Why would Lute just leave her to die in Hell instead of dragging her corpse back to Heaven? Wouldn’t a dead or dying Angel in Hell, give Overlords some funny ideas? Also, a crippled and banished Angel has some powerful motivation to spill every secret she knows to Sinners and also tell them how to kill Angels. It’s not a risk worth taking but seemingly Lute was aware that The Plot was on her side.
Seriously, the more I think about it, the greater the plothole gets.
Judging by Adam, Lute and Vaggie’s reactions I assume they did actually think they were invincible
@@pokerface4396 oh damn thank you for the very detailed answer, I don’t have anything else to add in terms of what you said you covered all grounds haha.
Honestly I can understand and even look past some plotholes in media, like it happens and it’s not a big deal a lot of the time, but this is like related to the entire conflict of the goddamn show and it’s born due to a plot hole, that’s just a bit too hard to ignore for me 😭
So Vaggie having to be taught that the Angel's biggest weakness is the fact that they think they're invincible and fight recklessly because of it, paired with Adam literally saying "That's how they can kill us? With our own weapons?!" Wasn't enough to clue you into the fact that Angels didn't know, and therefore did not care about leaving their weapons in Hell?
@@fireironthesecond2909 Then why are they afraid of an uprising if they are actually invincible?
Why are Vivziepop responses so unhinged. Like bruh who lies about rape abuse just to defend someone whose never gone through it 💀
Ngl this show slapped I am in no way plugged into this shows fanbase and I’m not on Twitter I remember seeing the pilot like 4 years ago and really enjoying it so now seeing it fully I absolutely loved it, genuinely such a fun show
So many songs from this mini-series -- ESPECIALLY the slower ballads -- made me want to tear my hair out. Especially the Carmilla and Vaggie song. WHO ARE YOU? WHY ARE YOU SINGING? WHAT IS HAPPENING???
I was supposed to believe Alastor was getting better when he passes the whole season being an a-hole.
Thank you for treating the topic of SA with the respect it deserved. RUclipsrs who haven’t suffered through SA keep saying how people are ‘sensitive’, so thank you for not blaming twitter and not invalidating victims.
37:15 alastor is taunting her, she is angry and demotivated. When people are angry they often say things they dont mean and considering his stated reason for being there and that he always smiles this is a pretty reasonable reaction.
It doesn't make sense and is inconsistent with what she said with her father, which was inconsistent with what we've been shown
I love Vox, he’s such a perfectly powerful and pathetic villain to the show. Especially when his Angelic Security System TAKES CONTROL OF SQUIDWARD’S HOUSE-
I think what they where trying to go for in the loser baby song, was how angel does say that he sold himself to valentino willingly and how in a twisted way, is reaping what he sowed with trusting him, but I totally get what cartoonshi means when he says he doesn't like it
“Alex put his whole Brightussy into this”
💀
One thing, Angel Dust has at least 6 arms, but he can "Hide" 4 of them, in the last chapter we see him actually taking out 2 more arms while protecting the egg.
So....like Stitch? He has multiple arms too, and can pop out his extra limbs at will.
I had three major issues with Hazbin Hotel:
1, the Exorcists are incompetent for leaving their Angelic Weapons in the battlefields for Carmine to collect despite knowing they can harm them like when they used them on Vaggie when they exiled her. (And they let her KEEP her Angelic Spear like idiots).
2, they did nothing to differentiate the Sinners that Charlie wanted to save and send them up to Heaven. So we have no choice but to assume that Charlie wants to help EVERYONE out of their Eternal Punishment, regardless of whatever Heinous Crimes they committed. Thereby making Charlie the most Evil Character in the show. (Step aside Alastor).
3, they removed GOD from Creation, despite using Lucifer Morningstar, Adam the First Man, Lilith, Adam's First Wife, and Saint Peter. This is exactly like the scene from Family Guy when Albert Einstein knocks out God and steals his shrinky dinks.
I think they WANTED to do more with the concept, got told “you have eight episodes to setup the rest of your show” and you can just feel the writers and animators internally wanting to strangle execs to death while working on this. This show would’ve been so much better with 16 episodes.
I truly just hope that season 2 will have more episodes. Hopefully season 1 was just like a weird corporate viewer poll to see if they "deserve" more episodes for the story.
There are too many characters and Adam felt more like a season 2 villain if anything. The Vs would be more suited for season 1 antagonists and I think Viv fucked up rushing this stuff.
I totally agree with your opinion on Loser Baby. I am very, very lucky to not have been SA'ed, but it has come close in the past and because of that I have terrible hypersexuality. so I am NOT going to talk about this as a victim of SA, but as someone who can still relate to the common coping mechanisms. healthy and unhealthy.
I think a better way it could've been handled was by giving some similarities to Angel and Husk's situations. Gambling debts, especially in the 70s when Husk died, could be paid off in "other ways". husk being in a corner at one point and having to use his "assets" to pay off said depts, with it eventually being too much that he had to ask Alastor for help wound fit better with Angel's situation (would also get rid of husk being an overlord that made no sense). him going "I know you have it worse than me, but I went through something similar" would not only make Loser Baby feel not weird and forced, but would be a reason for them to have a stronger bond. Their healing together is better than the unhealthy coping mechanism both characters have. I know it seems extreme, but I think it would feel a bit more natural and personal for the characters.
Loser baby is about them healing together tho lmao. And the overlord thing will prolly come into play later, there’s no reason to redo Husk’s whole backstory
As a sa victim i think ep 4 is horrible it feels so gross especially when someone who STORYBOARD THIS WITH A R@PE KINK.
Its disgusting. Im honestly so disgusted by this episode, i wish they handled it better it could've of been great.
The pilots animation honestly looked better.
Because independent animators are more well taught. Studios usually don't have professional animators. And celebrities who don't do voice impressions in live action media tend to fail at voice acting. If that explains it.
Agreed.
Indie animators indeed have more experience than public animators.
20:42 This is about how I felt. Vaggie feeling insecure that she's not properly helping Charlie achieve her goal makes sense, but I feel like it could have used a little more build up. Her being so upset that she asks Charlie to be left alone for awhile felt odd.
And don't get me started on Camilla. We've just met this lady, so her getting a big musical number about how she wants to protect her daughters has little impact when I haven't been allowed a chance to develop a connection to the character. I think this is a case where Vivzie knew the characters' motivations and backstory, but didn't consider that the audience wouldn't feel the same connection to her that she does. (I see that you addressed this, but this bugged me enough that I typed it out before getting further into the video)
31:30 Yeah, Vivzie apparently confirmed that Alastor was just trying to tick off Lucifer, and she's not sure how paternal he really is. But if that is his motivation, then I don't get the point of him looking annoyed at Lucifer displaying affection towards Charlie.
34:50 You focused on Vaggie being an angel and Angel Dust's character development, but I put "You Didn't Know" as the best example of how breakneck the show's pacing is. The dissent in Heaven should have played out over multiple episodes, not just one musical number. Seeing Emily go from being shocked at the existence of the exterminations to singing alongside Charlie about how Heaven is a lie feels really jarring.
37:32 I know Alastor is meant to be an ambiguous character, but the show's occasional hints that he's growing genuinely fond of the hotel feel like they clash with scenes such as him threatening Husker or his part in the finale song that point towards the conclusion that he's genuinely bad news. A character can have conflicting desires, and maybe this is setting up a plot development where Alastor has to choose between his ambitions and his budding friendships, but I still wonder how cohesive his character is going to feel once we reach the end of his arc.
40:00 Their part of the song did feel odd. Since Alastor reveals his survival soon afterwards, the power vacuum they talk about doesn't exist. At most I could believe that Rosie has lost a lot of resources because of the cannibals that died during the fight, but they make it sound like the effects of the battle were farther ranging than they actually were.
Viviziepop's issue feels like she tried to make Breaking Bad with a writing style that would fit better on a show like The Sopranos
What?
The Exterminations being an Extremist Solution rather than crushing Hell even further was 100% more interesting.
Okay, the Saint Peter joke killed me LoL.
Angel Dust:
angel's abuse was shoved into a song and 5 minutes of an episode; i feel like he deserved more backstory and i wish we got to see more of how val was treating him.
Husk:
okay this one makes my blood boil because we got around 3 MINUTES to see how alastor treated husk and they also came out with a bang saying that alastor owned husk. (i know before loser, baby husk talks a bit about his backstory of al owning him). i swear if we dont get more to the story of husk and al imma stop watching the show/hj
Lucifer:
why did lucifer just come out of no where? he was so random to pop up like all charlie did was call him and he came i think we deserved more story to where he was and how lilith was doing bcuz i have SO MANY QUESTIONS!! does lilith still live with him? does lucifer just not get calls from charlie? how did lucifer go over 10 years before knowing charlie had a girlfriend???
Sir Pentious (idk):
DUDE THIS MAN NEEDS A BACKSTORY. my guy just popped up and said i wanna redemption and got redeemed(ik he didnt say that). HOW DID SIR PENTIOUS GET REDEEMED BEFORE ANGEL(KEEP IN MIND ANGEL WAS THEY'RE FIRST TARGET TO REDEMPTION). (i know sir pentious died first😔😔)
More:
If someone dies but they're already in hell are they in double hell?
Angeldusts arms didnt fall off. He had the ability to retract them. Other than that i completely agree. The show was good but as much as i loved it it could have been better. It couldve been longer and the new animation style did lose some of the style from the original. Nonetheless i really enjoyed it
Also while i understand your views on episode 4 as an abuse survivor i found it refreshing and relatable. Yes it was a hard watch that made me cry but it was realistic and i found the way that it triggered me cathartic. I liked and loathed the poison sequence. Obviously i didnt want to see that but i respect it being in the show and i really understand what they were going for there and i think it really worked. As an abuse survivor struggling with depression i find loser baby to be wonderful. A lot of people in a similar situation find self deprication as a coping mechanism. And the message that 'everthing is not okay, and youre a mess but youre not alone in that' is super comforting. Sometimes all you need when youre in a dark place is to know youre not alone. The whole episodes shows that perfectly. I personally love episode 4
The animation is notably stiffer and more off shape. More limited color palette and simpler shading instead of gradient, giving a downgraded feel. Almost looks like this ToonBoom show is a Flash show.
I think this is by far the best video criticizing Hazbin. All of of your point are valid and well phrased and the video is well formatted. I can't say any of your points don't make sense and aren't well founded. Most importantly tho, you aren't over the top vitriolic or demeaning. I know the likelihood of you seeing this are next to none but I just wanted to say as a fan of the show, this was a great video and by far the best critique of Hazbin. Thank you for this.
And I can’t let you go hide away, hide away from me
As a victim of CSA episode 4 was very hard to watch I actually fast forwarded through a lot. Angel’s character making jokes about the situation is actually pretty accurate. It’s a dark situation and a lot of us victims do turn to dark humor or put on a false face just to be able to get through the day. No the writers didn’t handle it well and, that’s honestly because they’ve never been victims of SA. For me it actually physically hurt to watch. I had a tightness and pain in my chest because, I’ve had the same dead eye stare as Angel has in my eyes too.
6:36 a bobs burgers movie review would be greatly appreciated.
Well I be darned, you deserve a cookie for actually explaining it in a wayy better light. I couldn't even process what was wrong with it at first lol