polyurethane foam can be an absolute beast, on the Swedish Army boat Stridsbåt 90 H, it was added around 8 inch of a special PU compound around the hull and the stress test that boat could handle was insane, at 30 knot speed it could drive straight in to a 200x200 mm steel beam head on without the beam going though the hull, abslolutely insande, and at 30 knot and 15 000kg it is a lot of energy needed to be sucked up by that small part of the Hull. a military material science professor was supervising the whole manufacturing process and it was a success. :)
@@marshalllapenta7656 It was made at the boat yard just after the Hull was ready, it was made like a kind of sandwich construction on the inside of outer part of hull.
@@Dave5843-d9m Most parts was delivered through FMV, I would assume that also the PU base (it was a 2 component) also was handled through FMV, but the professor on site had been in on the science part of the PU.)
Julian did a great job with what is essentially a technical talk. I used to do the same thing when I was a systems engineer supporting sales of data center computer and related gear. So I know it’s not easy to go for as long as he did and as smoothly as he did, seemingly without a lot of retakes. I can see why Monroe hired him.
@@MunroLive I didn’t mean to imply that I saw any retakes. But it’s unusual on RUclips so I was a bit wishy washy so I wouldn’t get called out if I missed one or two. Since that talk was done in one take I’m even more impressed!
I'm not an engineer, so I was not expecting to be able to follow much of this and as a consequence I was not expecting to be watching the whole video. Yet here I am after the whole thing feeling like I understood all of it. Thankyou for a great explanation.
12:35 Each bandolier contains 69 batteries. Nice. If you know Elon's middle schoolish fixation on the number 69 (and 420) you can imagine the following exchange: Design Engineers-- "We have determined balancing assembly, weight characteristics, servicing, power needs, and properties of the materials used, that 67 cells per bandolier is the optimum number". Elon-- "can we fit in 69?" Design Engineers-- "We could if we redesign the housing, but 67 is actually optimal". Elon-- "Make it 69 cells".
Julian one of the things I wish you would talk about is if there is a problem with some of the cells or other electronic parts/boards inside the pack, can the pack be repaired or does a person need to buy a brand new battery pack? It seems that old Tesla battery pack could be repaired at sub module level, but the new battery packs can NOT be repaired and must be replaced leading to much higher repair cost to the consumer when the vehicle is out of warranty.
And the car is not going to last very long! Imagine if all those super old vehicles in Africa or South America were made this way! They would have been piles of junk decades ago.
I tend to hit the "like" button before I actually watch, because I know the information will be great. But this time.. I wish I could hit it twice. Thank you for providing such valuable information... As a potential buyer.. this really helped.
I think it would be a societal benefit if Munro could provide commentary on the recyclability of various battery packs. You do great work in educating customers on build quality, technology and cost... And I believe it's pushing the auto industry to focus on those elements. But the move to EVs is also about sustainability. It would be good to hear your feedback and insight on recyclability... Rather than have thousands of these battery packs reach end of life - only to realize that we have a big problem on our hand because it's not cost effective to recycle these packs.
Repair and reuse is always better than recycling. The 4680 is both unrepairable and the cells can NOT be repurposed for home energy storage. Total piece of garbage.
Life of a battery pack: Black mass -> Metal elements -> Battery -> Car battery pack -> (Often) PowerWall or Grid Storage -> Dry freeze -> Grind up -> Black mass. Regardless of form factor I see no issue on recycling. Also Munro have covered many companies that do the battery pack to black mass step. BTW Black mass price per kg is pretty high, so plenty of money to be made from recycling.
@@TrevelyanOO6 "Black mass -> Metal elements -> Battery -> Car battery pack -> (Often) PowerWall or Grid Storage -> Dry freeze -> Grind up -> Black mass" You forgot some steps. After "black mass".... Give the billionaire another $20,000 for a new battery pack because the 4680 is a totally unrepairable piece of crap! Enrich the wealthy investors through planned obsolescence.
@@DavidJohnson-tv2nn You are clueless. Tesla recycles their batteries including those that are bad out of production. What do you think they do with them? throw them out onto trash dump???? Use your little brain of yours.
A rather interesting presentation. A waterproof enhancement is quite important. Would be great if other advantages of 4680s were mentioned, from a customer's perspective.
Hey, very instructive video. Very well explained. Do you plan to get your hand on the Model Y 2023 with BYD blade battery pack produced in Europe ? I would love to see the same exercice on this kind of batterie. Cheers.
Thanks for the high quality presentation. 7:03 if the cell and the can have length L and diameter D, the volume of the cell is 3.14 x D^2/4 x L and the volume of the can is D^2 x L, so that the ratio of cell volume to can volume is 3.14/4, independent of D - that is, the same for the 2170 and the 4680.
Great video! Would be interesting to get your take on why they stopped making this variant so quick and financially if they could have paid off all the R&D and assembly line cost with such a low total build.
Although I was trained in electronic communications in the 80s, I am a novice when it comes to EV technology. I think Julian did a fantastic job in explaining the differences in Model Y battery configurations. Munro is doing a fantastic job in bring us old dogs along as EV technology evolves. Thank you.
Very slanted outlook. His Mush buddy can do no wrong, Sandi is also being proved wrong in his rants about how Tesla does it better blah blah blah blah. It's so obviously a shill.
Very informational video. Thank you Julian and Munro for the content. However, wouldn't "2170 vs 4860 battery pack comparison" be a more apt title? I came into the video thinking you were going to talk about the cell chemistry and not the battery pack configuration 😅 But nonetheless i learnt and enjoyed the video
So if the latest generation 4680 cell is lighter and potentially less structural vs 4680 "Rev A" do they need to re crash test cars? Since the battery pack is part of the structure of the car and the cell is part of the structure of the pack?
True engineering is all about designing a product that is "best-value" across entire life-cycle and all possible parameters that physics allows. Engineering is art.
A major problem with the 4680 design is that it looks virtually impossible to repair if a single cell fails, and it looks like it would be very hard to reuse as a home battery after the end of the life of the car. I'm guessing that software in the BMS can shut down the entire series of cells if a single cell fails, but it isn't clear from this video how many series there are. How much of the battery capacity do you lose if a single cell dies? The more important question from an environmental perspective is the second life reuse of the battery. Pulling out the individual cells for reuse in a home battery is going to be very difficult and dangerous, so I doubt many people will even try. Reusing the entire floor pan of a car as a home battery is very bulky and unwieldy, but I can see people doing it, if people can figure out to interact with and control the BMS. In my opinion, Tesla should publish info on how to interact with its BMS so that its batteries can be reused as home batteries, or at least make it simple for others to figure out how to do that. I hope that Tesla has not built in software security that locks out third parties (like Apple does), because that would be truly evil to prevent reuse of their batteries.
As I understand it the 4680 pack has no air space for water to go into. All spaces are taken up by the expanding polymer. It ends up like a plastic brick.
Weight saving on casing from 2170 to 4680 is so small it doesn't matter. I think the fact that you only have to control 900 units rather than 4000ish during fast charging make a lot of diffence.
Nope. The BMS manages the parallel groups of cells, and has no way to manage individual cells or even be aware that there are multiple cells in parallel. Whether each parallel group consist of nine 4680's or dozens of 2170's or two pouch cells doesn't matter to control.
@@brianb-p6586 so seemingly the key improvement is moving away from panasonic as a separate supplier (and with its markup). i mean, thats not a bad thing to cut costs. Hope tesla have enough experience to produce a battery as good as panasonic
I used polyurethane foam to bond the rear frame of my old Buick Regal to the body. Worked like a charm! I'm sure whoever stole the car got a big surprise when they discovered it!
The 2170 battery size description stated the 21 mm diameter while Julian’s indicated the circumference by circling his finger around the battery. For those of us who understand the difference between diameter & circumference this is no big deal. For the less informed, this could cause some confusion.
Hope they find a more elegant solution to the pink foam, this is impossible to fix single cells like some are now doing in old Moldel Ss. But bigger cells do make much more sense manufacturing wise, BYD blade battery takes that one step further with gigant cells, and Tesla is definitely taking notes since they started using them on some models.
I think Tesla has different idea how their batterypacks should be fixed. They are trying to get the batterypack cost down under 10k. Also they are designing the structral battery pack way that its is very easy to remove and reinstall. The whole batterypack replacement cost will be probably under 10k in future with 4680 batterypack. Lets say new batterypack 10k Batterypack replacement maybe around 2k. And refund from the old batterypack 3-5k Total 7-9k and with long warranty this should be way to go.
@malax4013 I know they're trying to make everything cheaper but it would still be cheaper to just switch out bad cells like on older models, and not to mention MUCH less carbon footprint because you need to recycle the whole pack with 4680. This kinda makes sense from customer perspective, with acceptable prices and much less hassle than today. But from sustainability perspective it's bad, it's like they're defying their own message. All that doesn't matter anymore since they halted all 4680 model Y production, probably for foreseeable future to produce cybertrucks.
@@antonio_fosnjar Probably it would be hard/ almost impossible to make structral packs with interchangeable cells. Or the pack would cost much more. So it is better to get 5k of from the sell price rather than make 5k cheaper to fix batterypacks because the cheaper batterypack includes all the cars but the fix isnt really need that often.
@malax4013 All that's true, but there's definitely a way to make it without foam but it would be heavier. It doesn't seem like a big deal now, but when EVs start to sell in tens of millions this fast becomes a problem, specially with how energy and resource intense battery production is. EU will soon pass a law for smartphones to have easily exchangeable batteries, they will definitely mandate something similar for EVs in the future.
@@antonio_fosnjar I think we just have to disagree with this. But there are pros and cons in both approach. I prefer the cheaper to buy options because most of the time you dont even need the maintenance solution. Even the exchangable battery law has lots of downsides. It is almost impossible to make phones with same water/dustproof rating without using some sealing compound. So phones wont last that long and need more repairing.
Not really. Slightly better charging maybe. Besides, the only Model Y's that have a 4680 are the lowest range trim. Maybe that has changed recently though.
Thank you Julian! This is exactly the video I've been waiting months for - explaining the complex structural layer cake that Tesla have created by potting large assemblies of relatively delicate parts that have high rigidity and low strength, placed in a housing then attached to a car body that in sum will inevitably experience some torsional flexure. It's a nightmare stress analysis problem. The benefits of having an elegant round cell design can easily be lost when having to package, wire and cool them in large numbers. This is all very fine as a science fair project but in my book unnecessarily risky for a high volume product. Really appreciate the smooth flow of technical information. It reminds me of how much I miss working with smart people.
Sandy Munro said these cells get hot at the ends. Cooling the flanks is arguably easier to engineer. However cooling the ends is more efficient and the flank spaces can be filled with silicone or PU foam. Which dramatically improves strength.
They created nothing! It’s not really a structural pack tbh! It’s just a much difficult thing to open or repair! A veritable structural pack would be totally impossible to even open without destroying everything!
So far I’m not too impressed with the 4680 cells. They’re not delivering the huge leaps in cost reduction, efficiency improvement, charging speed improvements, energy density, or much of any benefit I can think of vs. Panasonic’s 2170s or even competing prismatic cells produced by companies like SKI, CATL, etc.
Great detailed review. Hopefully as the 4680 evolves both we’ll see a lighter more powerful cell. I expect we’ll get to over 300 watts per KG soon enough at a pack level which should give us a 400 mile range model Y.
If Tesla was able to increase battery density they would more likely reduce battery size for reduced weight and cost. Having a longer range version with the better battery density
I expect greater power density as a result of the evolution of the battery chemistry. It’s happening already with the 10% more powerful batteries for the Cybertruck which will have a 500 mile range and we’ll see a 431 mile range Model 3 hit the roads next year. @@wizzyno1566
Why does Tesla continue to use the 1865 batteries for the Model X & S? Why not move onto the 2170 used in M3 & MY to consolidate products and provide more production flexibility?
@@robertbowman9108 Not so much as they don't want to as it would be pointless. We will see the innovation in the new cars moving forward. Very few will make it into cars already in production.
No mentioning of the distance from these cells to what was told on that so much hyped battery day + 3 years ago regarding need for cooling, chemistry, impedance & longevity while and talking around the lower energy density they got vs. traditional cells. Nice video and very professional video made by Julian for sure but in my humble opinion it's more propaganda style vs. what Munro made 3-4 years ago on such subjects.
Hi Julian, thank you for the look at cells and basic pack componentry / structure / fill recaps. One lingering question. 2020 MY with 2170’s, ~75 kW total energy; 2022 MY with 4680’s, ~67 kW total energy. Despite the 10mm greater height of 4680’s, ~8 kW less total energy. Is that b/c the larger cells have larger within-pack gaps/filled spaces? Or smaller footprint for cells in pack used? Or lost periferal space for structure / compression padding? Or ??? Thank for any info to fill that odd difference!!
I haven't seen numbers from any recent teardowns, but I know that the initial teardowns found that the Tesla 4680 pack is less energy dense (in terms of weight and volume) than the Panasonic/Tesla 2170 pack. Tesla's 4680 NMC 811 cells had about 9% lower energy density than Panasonic's 2170 NCA cells. Maybe Tesla was playing it safe, because 4680 cells are harder to cool than 2170 cells, so Tesla couldn't make them as energy dense, and maybe Panasonic simply has a better battery chemistry than Tesla. Another issue is that Tesla is using thicker metal walls in the 4680 cans than in the 2170 cans, but this video mentioned that Telsa is rumored to have reduced the thickness of the metal walls in the Cybertruck's 4689 cans. Another issue is that larger cells waste more space between the cells, although you need fewer cooling/heating coils running between the cells.
Fascinating talk but it left me a little confused as to how the 4680 packs resist bending moment. I understand the 2470 packs have I-beams and a different filler material, but is the polyurethane foam actually resisting bending forces in the 4680 packs?
It looks like all the numbers are published in the reports, so you have to pay thousands of dollars to get that info. Hopefully someone will eventually put that info out for the public.
If this theory of markup worked for as the reason for vertical integration, then the specialization of labour would not make sense. The advantage is in innovation.
Nothing structural about the pouch cells used in phones/notebooks. Only by potting the whole assembly in resin, such as shown here, can you leverage any structural properties of the cells themselves. For pouch cells, compared to cylindrical format cells, there is much less volume in between cells to fill with such a resin.
Is the foam "structure" just to replace the module material, keeping it all in place? Not structural to help the chassis out and save weight in the chassis as promised?
Great job with explanations off the cuff. Might be more succinct if you scripted it. I'm stunned that Tesla is making the battery pack into the body pan. That seems like a recipe for fire in the cabin. I expect that in the near future, government will need to require auto manufacturers put some sort of fire break between the battery packs and the cabin. This design sounds insanely dangerous.
Does this not mean that in the older battery packs it was possible to replace individual failed cells while it is impossible to do so on this new pack?
seems like it'd be harder to extract heat from the larger diameter cells, (higher volume of coolant needed and/or larger contact patch)? Maybe impact on longevity?
Chemically it doesn't matter. Thermally it depends on the details of cell construction and the cooling method. Tesla still uses heating and cooling through one strip along the length of the cylinder (so larger diameter cells are inferior for heat transfer) while others heat and cool through one end (so longer cells are inferior... but the length isn't much different between these formats).
awesome video, as usual! Structural battery pack is an awful idea from an environmental standpoint. Although it will be recycled, the order of operations is: reduce -> REUSE -> recycle. cells should be given a second life in static energy storage roles after they are no longer fit to handle the high current demands of vehicle operations. Additionally, cells should be salvageable in the event of a pack level failure when possible. These tesla structural packs don’t allow for either case and are only designed for ease/cost of manufacturability without regard to end of life or environmental costs.
Those Jouwa products seem quite nice, I’m just not a fan of how they stamp everything with such a big logo. I get trying to advertise the brand but the logo itself takes away from the minimalist interior.
The 4680 should be (if I recall correctly from "Battery day") more efficient and make better use of space. Meaning, given the same battery size (77KWh?) the one made with 4680 should be smaller and lighter than the one made with 2170. Is that the case?
How do you explain that cells are not in any way connected to the bottom tray? This defeats the logic of working as a composite with cells being the matrix and top/bottom being the load bearing skins. Or at least, it would only work in one bending direction.
I don’t think the newer version of the 4680 will have a mass reduction. Didn’t they just make the contacts at the top of the battery smaller, making more room for battery material, thius increasing increasing energy per cell. They basically just were more efficient in the packaging, using wasted space. So the battery should have more mass.
Tesla seem to be possibly missing a trick by not bonding the cells to the upper and lower surface sheets of the pack sincee this would surely greatly increase the strength of the structure. I wonder why they don't do it.
polyurethane foam can be an absolute beast, on the Swedish Army boat Stridsbåt 90 H, it was added around 8 inch of a special PU compound around the hull and the stress test that boat could handle was insane, at 30 knot speed it could drive straight in to a 200x200 mm steel beam head on without the beam going though the hull, abslolutely insande, and at 30 knot and 15 000kg it is a lot of energy needed to be sucked up by that small part of the Hull. a military material science professor was supervising the whole manufacturing process and it was a success. :)
Wow!!!
Interesting
Who made the foam?
Dow?
@@marshalllapenta7656 It was made at the boat yard just after the Hull was ready, it was made like a kind of sandwich construction on the inside of outer part of hull.
I think he’s asking who is the manufacturer of the foam.
@@Dave5843-d9m Most parts was delivered through FMV, I would assume that also the PU base (it was a 2 component) also was handled through FMV, but the professor on site had been in on the science part of the PU.)
*_This_* is why I watch the *Monro* channel. Information dense and presented in an engaging mamner.
Glad to hear it!
I like the rants.🤣
Agreed. Well presented info. When you Munro, you know.
I do research in the EV/AV space and always watch here
100% agreed, love this kind of content boys great work
Julian did a great job with what is essentially a technical talk. I used to do the same thing when I was a systems engineer supporting sales of data center computer and related gear. So I know it’s not easy to go for as long as he did and as smoothly as he did, seemingly without a lot of retakes. I can see why Monroe hired him.
our videos are never scripted and we don't do multiple takes.
The whole gang at Munro are top notch.
@@MunroLive I didn’t mean to imply that I saw any retakes. But it’s unusual on RUclips so I was a bit wishy washy so I wouldn’t get called out if I missed one or two. Since that talk was done in one take I’m even more impressed!
Interesting how diameter is a go around thing!
I'm not an engineer, so I was not expecting to be able to follow much of this and as a consequence I was not expecting to be watching the whole video. Yet here I am after the whole thing feeling like I understood all of it. Thankyou for a great explanation.
12:35 Each bandolier contains 69 batteries. Nice.
If you know Elon's middle schoolish fixation on the number 69 (and 420) you can imagine the following exchange:
Design Engineers-- "We have determined balancing assembly, weight characteristics, servicing, power needs, and properties of the materials used, that 67 cells per bandolier is the optimum number".
Elon-- "can we fit in 69?"
Design Engineers-- "We could if we redesign the housing, but 67 is actually optimal".
Elon-- "Make it 69 cells".
I could 100% see him take a tiny hit to efficiency for the giggles or adjust something else to optimize that.
Julian one of the things I wish you would talk about is if there is a problem with some of the cells or other electronic parts/boards inside the pack, can the pack be repaired or does a person need to buy a brand new battery pack? It seems that old Tesla battery pack could be repaired at sub module level, but the new battery packs can NOT be repaired and must be replaced leading to much higher repair cost to the consumer when the vehicle is out of warranty.
And the car is not going to last very long! Imagine if all those super old vehicles in Africa or South America were made this way! They would have been piles of junk decades ago.
They are in there really good. Would need heroic effort to replace a failed cell.😢
I tend to hit the "like" button before I actually watch, because I know the information will be great. But this time.. I wish I could hit it twice. Thank you for providing such valuable information... As a potential buyer.. this really helped.
Don't hit it twice- it's a trap 😂
Me too! I'm just so glad they do the videos. I anticipate the next and know it'll be time well spent.
i like first so i know i've watched the episode, and it's always worth it.
Great Job Julian. You represent Munro well.
Thanks
Another super smart employee - excellent presentation and knowledge of the product
I think it would be a societal benefit if Munro could provide commentary on the recyclability of various battery packs. You do great work in educating customers on build quality, technology and cost... And I believe it's pushing the auto industry to focus on those elements. But the move to EVs is also about sustainability. It would be good to hear your feedback and insight on recyclability... Rather than have thousands of these battery packs reach end of life - only to realize that we have a big problem on our hand because it's not cost effective to recycle these packs.
I do think they've mentioned this
Repair and reuse is always better than recycling. The 4680 is both unrepairable and the cells can NOT be repurposed for home energy storage. Total piece of garbage.
Life of a battery pack: Black mass -> Metal elements -> Battery -> Car battery pack -> (Often) PowerWall or Grid Storage -> Dry freeze -> Grind up -> Black mass.
Regardless of form factor I see no issue on recycling. Also Munro have covered many companies that do the battery pack to black mass step.
BTW Black mass price per kg is pretty high, so plenty of money to be made from recycling.
@@TrevelyanOO6 "Black mass -> Metal elements -> Battery -> Car battery pack -> (Often) PowerWall or Grid Storage -> Dry freeze -> Grind up -> Black mass"
You forgot some steps. After "black mass"....
Give the billionaire another $20,000 for a new battery pack because the 4680 is a totally unrepairable piece of crap! Enrich the wealthy investors through planned obsolescence.
@@DavidJohnson-tv2nn You are clueless. Tesla recycles their batteries including those that are bad out of production. What do you think they do with them? throw them out onto trash dump???? Use your little brain of yours.
A rather interesting presentation. A waterproof enhancement is quite important. Would be great if other advantages of 4680s were mentioned, from a customer's perspective.
🙋♂️JULIAN,THANK YOU AND ALL THE MUNRO TEAM FOR THIS REVIEW 🧐💚💚💚
Awesome video with profound physics and engineering knowledge. Thanks for sharing!
Great presentation. Thanks!!
Thank you for watching!
Thank you for the video.
I much prefer the LFP pack.
Mr Aytes is tracing a circumference on both the 2170 and its bigger brother as he is describing the diameter.
I noticed that also.
Cannot wait till you tear down a Model 3 blade battery pack. 🇨🇦
1:27 The first two digits of the battery due refer to diameter as was stated, not circumference like his pointing motion indicated.
Thanks - I thought so, thanks again..
Great explanation of the two battery pack structure !
Side note, industry practice (40 years ago) was that pink foam had flame retardant added.
Was reading that when the foam chared it provides insulation to retard heat spread.
Is Sandy going to Austin for the CT delivery event? There must be someone who can take him as their +1.
Impressive presentation and good camerperson.
Thanks!
Hey, very instructive video. Very well explained. Do you plan to get your hand on the Model Y 2023 with BYD blade battery pack produced in Europe ? I would love to see the same exercice on this kind of batterie.
Cheers.
I hope so too, but a few cells from China would be enough & much cheaper.
Much smoother delivery. Keep at it. Thumbs up.
Thanks for the high quality presentation. 7:03 if the cell and the can have length L and diameter D, the volume of the cell is 3.14 x D^2/4 x L and the volume of the can is D^2 x L, so that the ratio of cell volume to can volume is 3.14/4, independent of D - that is, the same for the 2170 and the 4680.
Great video! Would be interesting to get your take on why they stopped making this variant so quick and financially if they could have paid off all the R&D and assembly line cost with such a low total build.
Although I was trained in electronic communications in the 80s, I am a novice when it comes to EV technology. I think Julian did a fantastic job in explaining the differences in Model Y battery configurations. Munro is doing a fantastic job in bring us old dogs along as EV technology evolves. Thank you.
Very slanted outlook. His Mush buddy can do no wrong, Sandi is also being proved wrong in his rants about how Tesla does it better blah blah blah blah. It's so obviously a shill.
Which old dogs!? Lol!!
Very informational video. Thank you Julian and Munro for the content. However, wouldn't "2170 vs 4860 battery pack comparison" be a more apt title? I came into the video thinking you were going to talk about the cell chemistry and not the battery pack configuration 😅
But nonetheless i learnt and enjoyed the video
Would love for you to point out catastrophic venting points in the packs to direct gases/fire away from passenger compartment
Always appreciate Munro's focus!
So if the latest generation 4680 cell is lighter and potentially less structural vs 4680 "Rev A" do they need to re crash test cars? Since the battery pack is part of the structure of the car and the cell is part of the structure of the pack?
True engineering is all about designing a product that is "best-value" across entire life-cycle and all possible parameters that physics allows. Engineering is art.
In this case the 4680 is very low value. Can not be repaired, and can not be repurposed for home energy storage.
@@DavidJohnson-tv2nn
*Does not need to be repaired.
There. Fixed it for you.
Julian does a good job in these videos in my opinion, but i sure do miss cory
Cory chose poorly IMO
Where's Cory? Has he left?
@@nononsenseBennett he went to Lucid, LOL
A major problem with the 4680 design is that it looks virtually impossible to repair if a single cell fails, and it looks like it would be very hard to reuse as a home battery after the end of the life of the car. I'm guessing that software in the BMS can shut down the entire series of cells if a single cell fails, but it isn't clear from this video how many series there are. How much of the battery capacity do you lose if a single cell dies?
The more important question from an environmental perspective is the second life reuse of the battery. Pulling out the individual cells for reuse in a home battery is going to be very difficult and dangerous, so I doubt many people will even try. Reusing the entire floor pan of a car as a home battery is very bulky and unwieldy, but I can see people doing it, if people can figure out to interact with and control the BMS. In my opinion, Tesla should publish info on how to interact with its BMS so that its batteries can be reused as home batteries, or at least make it simple for others to figure out how to do that. I hope that Tesla has not built in software security that locks out third parties (like Apple does), because that would be truly evil to prevent reuse of their batteries.
Great presentation Julian!
How waterproof are the packs (regarding flooding)? Are there moisture sensors in the pack to warn of water intrusion?
yes and yes
@@jamesengland7461are you sure about that!? 😅😅
As I understand it the 4680 pack has no air space for water to go into. All spaces are taken up by the expanding polymer. It ends up like a plastic brick.
Weight saving on casing from 2170 to 4680 is so small it doesn't matter.
I think the fact that you only have to control 900 units rather than 4000ish during fast charging make a lot of diffence.
Nope. The BMS manages the parallel groups of cells, and has no way to manage individual cells or even be aware that there are multiple cells in parallel. Whether each parallel group consist of nine 4680's or dozens of 2170's or two pouch cells doesn't matter to control.
@@brianb-p6586 so seemingly the key improvement is moving away from panasonic as a separate supplier (and with its markup). i mean, thats not a bad thing to cut costs. Hope tesla have enough experience to produce a battery as good as panasonic
And manufacture cost is reduced
@@kalasmournrex1470 cost is not the topic
Less parallel cells will make it much more reliable because if one parallel cell goes low it will drag its mates down with it.
I used polyurethane foam to bond the rear frame of my old Buick Regal to the body. Worked like a charm! I'm sure whoever stole the car got a big surprise when they discovered it!
JB Wield 😂
Introducing the Tesla 4680 Power Bank Kit (Detachable) - Unleash Power On-the-Go!
I'd like to know more about the different types of foam?
The 2170 battery size description stated the 21 mm diameter while Julian’s indicated the circumference by circling his finger around the battery. For those of us who understand the difference between diameter & circumference this is no big deal. For the less informed, this could cause some confusion.
You can see by the proportions that he obviously meant diameter, as he said, despite his hand gestures.
It Doesn’t look easy to service the battery pack. How would they service it?
Wow. Thank you. A lot of questions I had were answered.
Rumors from Kato road about Tesla silicon helping increase range by 20%
Excellent presentation with a very good explanation.
Thank you kindly!
Hope they find a more elegant solution to the pink foam, this is impossible to fix single cells like some are now doing in old Moldel Ss. But bigger cells do make much more sense manufacturing wise, BYD blade battery takes that one step further with gigant cells, and Tesla is definitely taking notes since they started using them on some models.
I think Tesla has different idea how their batterypacks should be fixed.
They are trying to get the batterypack cost down under 10k. Also they are designing the structral battery pack way that its is very easy to remove and reinstall.
The whole batterypack replacement cost will be probably under 10k in future with 4680 batterypack.
Lets say new batterypack 10k
Batterypack replacement maybe around 2k.
And refund from the old batterypack 3-5k
Total 7-9k and with long warranty this should be way to go.
@malax4013 I know they're trying to make everything cheaper but it would still be cheaper to just switch out bad cells like on older models, and not to mention MUCH less carbon footprint because you need to recycle the whole pack with 4680. This kinda makes sense from customer perspective, with acceptable prices and much less hassle than today. But from sustainability perspective it's bad, it's like they're defying their own message. All that doesn't matter anymore since they halted all 4680 model Y production, probably for foreseeable future to produce cybertrucks.
@@antonio_fosnjar Probably it would be hard/ almost impossible to make structral packs with interchangeable cells. Or the pack would cost much more. So it is better to get 5k of from the sell price rather than make 5k cheaper to fix batterypacks because the cheaper batterypack includes all the cars but the fix isnt really need that often.
@malax4013 All that's true, but there's definitely a way to make it without foam but it would be heavier. It doesn't seem like a big deal now, but when EVs start to sell in tens of millions this fast becomes a problem, specially with how energy and resource intense battery production is. EU will soon pass a law for smartphones to have easily exchangeable batteries, they will definitely mandate something similar for EVs in the future.
@@antonio_fosnjar I think we just have to disagree with this. But there are pros and cons in both approach. I prefer the cheaper to buy options because most of the time you dont even need the maintenance solution.
Even the exchangable battery law has lots of downsides. It is almost impossible to make phones with same water/dustproof rating without using some sealing compound. So phones wont last that long and need more repairing.
Is there any advantages for me as a customer with the 4680 battery compared to 2170?
Not really. Slightly better charging maybe. Besides, the only Model Y's that have a 4680 are the lowest range trim. Maybe that has changed recently though.
@@HourRomanticistI think charge speed is actually worse.
Thank you Julian! This is exactly the video I've been waiting months for - explaining the complex structural layer cake that Tesla have created by potting large assemblies of relatively delicate parts that have high rigidity and low strength, placed in a housing then attached to a car body that in sum will inevitably experience some torsional flexure. It's a nightmare stress analysis problem. The benefits of having an elegant round cell design can easily be lost when having to package, wire and cool them in large numbers. This is all very fine as a science fair project but in my book unnecessarily risky for a high volume product. Really appreciate the smooth flow of technical information. It reminds me of how much I miss working with smart people.
Sandy Munro said these cells get hot at the ends. Cooling the flanks is arguably easier to engineer. However cooling the ends is more efficient and the flank spaces can be filled with silicone or PU foam. Which dramatically improves strength.
They created nothing! It’s not really a structural pack tbh! It’s just a much difficult thing to open or repair! A veritable structural pack would be totally impossible to even open without destroying everything!
I click for the exceptional in depth engineering info, but I watch to the end for the hot presenter bros. 💪🏻😎
So far I’m not too impressed with the 4680 cells. They’re not delivering the huge leaps in cost reduction, efficiency improvement, charging speed improvements, energy density, or much of any benefit I can think of vs. Panasonic’s 2170s or even competing prismatic cells produced by companies like SKI, CATL, etc.
Great detailed review. Hopefully as the 4680 evolves both we’ll see a lighter more powerful cell. I expect we’ll get to over 300 watts per KG soon enough at a pack level which should give us a 400 mile range model Y.
If Tesla was able to increase battery density they would more likely reduce battery size for reduced weight and cost. Having a longer range version with the better battery density
Why do you expect that?
I expect greater power density as a result of the evolution of the battery chemistry. It’s happening already with the 10% more powerful batteries for the Cybertruck which will have a 500 mile range and we’ll see a 431 mile range Model 3 hit the roads next year. @@wizzyno1566
Impressive explanation of the engineering behind
Can we have more of Julian? He is very easy on the eyes
He’s been in a lot of videos!
One for the ladies
Good video, thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Was there an overall weight saving considering that the floor pan is being eliminated?
Very good presentation , Thanks !
You are welcome!
Any news on when you guys might have a Model Y blade battery to tear down?
Nope
Why does Tesla continue to use the 1865 batteries for the Model X & S? Why not move onto the 2170 used in M3 & MY to consolidate products and provide more production flexibility?
1865 cells have more power output compared to 2170 which is better for faster 0-60.
Also there are large production lines producing those batteries with excellent quality and yield rates. They need as many batteries as they can get.
Because they already designed the product and don't wanna spend more money redesigning it
@@robertbowman9108 Not so much as they don't want to as it would be pointless. We will see the innovation in the new cars moving forward. Very few will make it into cars already in production.
Sure, @@robertbowman9108, but the Model S pack has been completely re-designed since the 2170 became available, and still used the 18650 again.
Drink every time Julian says 'artifact'! :D
No mentioning of the distance from these cells to what was told on that so much hyped battery day + 3 years ago regarding need for cooling, chemistry, impedance & longevity while and talking around the lower energy density they got vs. traditional cells. Nice video and very professional video made by Julian for sure but in my humble opinion it's more propaganda style vs. what Munro made 3-4 years ago on such subjects.
Good to see a new presenter. I think he's good.
Julian has been doing videos for us for over a year now.
What chemistry is inside in 4680 li-ion battery cells in tesla model y 2023 long range?
Is it NMC or LFP?
Very informative .thnx decrease in costs,,love it
Julian air drew the circumference of the battery, not the diameter.
Great presentation of course, presenter needs to work on eliminating the "Uhhs" and "Umms" because it's all I focused on after 30 seconds.
Well done, Julian! Extremely informative. SoCalFreddy
Hi Julian, thank you for the look at cells and basic pack componentry / structure / fill recaps. One lingering question. 2020 MY with 2170’s, ~75 kW total energy; 2022 MY with 4680’s, ~67 kW total energy. Despite the 10mm greater height of 4680’s, ~8 kW less total energy. Is that b/c the larger cells have larger within-pack gaps/filled spaces? Or smaller footprint for cells in pack used? Or lost periferal space for structure / compression padding? Or ???
Thank for any info to fill that odd difference!!
Could this be a software limit? Maybe the 4680 battery is being protected until they get more long term data?
I haven't seen numbers from any recent teardowns, but I know that the initial teardowns found that the Tesla 4680 pack is less energy dense (in terms of weight and volume) than the Panasonic/Tesla 2170 pack. Tesla's 4680 NMC 811 cells had about 9% lower energy density than Panasonic's 2170 NCA cells. Maybe Tesla was playing it safe, because 4680 cells are harder to cool than 2170 cells, so Tesla couldn't make them as energy dense, and maybe Panasonic simply has a better battery chemistry than Tesla. Another issue is that Tesla is using thicker metal walls in the 4680 cans than in the 2170 cans, but this video mentioned that Telsa is rumored to have reduced the thickness of the metal walls in the Cybertruck's 4689 cans. Another issue is that larger cells waste more space between the cells, although you need fewer cooling/heating coils running between the cells.
@@amosbatto3051 is part of density difference the dry vs wet anode/cathode approach?
How do I know if my Tesla has 4680 or 2170?
Very informative video
Thanks. Most interesting. 🙂👍
Glad you enjoyed it
Fascinating talk but it left me a little confused as to how the 4680 packs resist bending moment. I understand the 2470 packs have I-beams and a different filler material, but is the polyurethane foam actually resisting bending forces in the 4680 packs?
Man! I was hoping for a post mortem at the cell level, or some electrical testing data.
It looks like all the numbers are published in the reports, so you have to pay thousands of dollars to get that info. Hopefully someone will eventually put that info out for the public.
@@amosbatto3051 Boo. That is about what my institute would charge to do that work though.
Munro doesn't seem to do electrical testing.
@@brianb-p6586 come on Munro! Neware cyclers are only about $80/ channel. I’ll walk you guys through it.
If this theory of markup worked for as the reason for vertical integration, then the specialization of labour would not make sense.
The advantage is in innovation.
Great report. Did you ever do a tear down of an iPhone or MacBook? Would their battery packs be structural as well?
Nothing structural about the pouch cells used in phones/notebooks. Only by potting the whole assembly in resin, such as shown here, can you leverage any structural properties of the cells themselves. For pouch cells, compared to cylindrical format cells, there is much less volume in between cells to fill with such a resin.
Thank you!
You're welcome!
Munro to the Fcn rescue!
I just drove past you in London. Cheers mate
Cheers
Is the foam "structure" just to replace the module material, keeping it all in place? Not structural to help the chassis out and save weight in the chassis as promised?
Any changes of ingredients in 4680 cell? R they still not using manganese?
I don't think Tesla has stated yet, but they have said the Cybertruck will be using a newer, higher-performance generation of the 4680.
what's the cell voltage? that would indicate chemistry
Nice
Great job with explanations off the cuff. Might be more succinct if you scripted it. I'm stunned that Tesla is making the battery pack into the body pan. That seems like a recipe for fire in the cabin. I expect that in the near future, government will need to require auto manufacturers put some sort of fire break between the battery packs and the cabin. This design sounds insanely dangerous.
Guy is ripped
Mrs Munro must be on the hiring panel 😂
Why does the liquid form foam expand after the lid is rivited down? Super slow expansion, or a first heat cycle triggering the permanent expansion?
Does this not mean that in the older battery packs it was possible to replace individual failed cells while it is impossible to do so on this new pack?
From a chemical standpoint, is it faster to get smaller or larger cells up to 100% charge? 6:18
seems like it'd be harder to extract heat from the larger diameter cells, (higher volume of coolant needed and/or larger contact patch)? Maybe impact on longevity?
Chemically it doesn't matter. Thermally it depends on the details of cell construction and the cooling method. Tesla still uses heating and cooling through one strip along the length of the cylinder (so larger diameter cells are inferior for heat transfer) while others heat and cool through one end (so longer cells are inferior... but the length isn't much different between these formats).
awesome video, as usual!
Structural battery pack is an awful idea from an environmental standpoint. Although it will be recycled, the order of operations is: reduce -> REUSE -> recycle. cells should be given a second life in static energy storage roles after they are no longer fit to handle the high current demands of vehicle operations. Additionally, cells should be salvageable in the event of a pack level failure when possible. These tesla structural packs don’t allow for either case and are only designed for ease/cost of manufacturability without regard to end of life or environmental costs.
Anyone else triggered by him circling the circumference of the batteries while talking about the diameter?
What are the weights of the 2170 pack and the 4680 pack?
One has to compare car weights. The cars are different.
Those Jouwa products seem quite nice, I’m just not a fan of how they stamp everything with such a big logo. I get trying to advertise the brand but the logo itself takes away from the minimalist interior.
The 4680 should be (if I recall correctly from "Battery day") more efficient and make better use of space. Meaning, given the same battery size (77KWh?) the one made with 4680 should be smaller and lighter than the one made with 2170. Is that the case?
How do you explain that cells are not in any way connected to the bottom tray? This defeats the logic of working as a composite with cells being the matrix and top/bottom being the load bearing skins. Or at least, it would only work in one bending direction.
How about the LFP model and the new BYD Blade battery ?
Fantastic
Chemistry, heat dissipation, alternatives, cost vs... time to expand on this report.
Shouldn't Munroe be concentrating on catls new battery packs..is this not obsolete?
I don’t think the newer version of the 4680 will have a mass reduction. Didn’t they just make the contacts at the top of the battery smaller, making more room for battery material, thius increasing increasing energy per cell. They basically just were more efficient in the packaging, using wasted space. So the battery should have more mass.
Wait 22:15 is that the same piece of steel,? How does that work.?
Recycling with the process from Recyclico 👌🏻
Not a single word about the 4680 GEN 2? Uncool.
How about the 2023 model 3 performance?
Tesla seem to be possibly missing a trick by not bonding the cells to the upper and lower surface sheets of the pack sincee this would surely greatly increase the strength of the structure.
I wonder why they don't do it.
Why do batteries have a cylindrical design? Wouldn't a hexagonal design be better?