Why Solar Batteries are Not Worth It
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2024
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Solar Surge will teach you all about being energy independent and how to set up your home to run off-the-grid during an emergency. We empower families to take control of their energy generation and storage so that they will never be left in the dark without electricity.
In this video, Joe explains discusses if batteries are worth it and strategies to maximize your payback.
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You should change this video’s title to “why solar batteries may not be worth it”
The original title is better click bait. Unfortunately, that's how social media and RUclips gets views.
That’s not click baity enough 😂
My battery scheme is very simple. I already have two trifuel generators for backup but running them 24/7 is annoying and expensive. I can charge up my batterys, for the whole day+, in just 4 hours saving money and annoyance. Many don't realize that the average gasoline generator burns 10 to 20 gallons a day. How many people keep 8 five gallon cans of gasoline in their garage for a two day power outage? My solar plan is to be able to supply enough energy to cover the average days usage with the average day of solar generation. This relegates the grid to being the backup and should return an 8 year payback on my investment. In the case of a total grid failure I can get by comfortably on just the solar I have by enabling my energy conservation plan
Good video. We are happy with our solar and batteries. We went from $500/mo. to close to zero. As the video states we get high reliability, avoid buying electricity during on-peak, and have backup in the few power outage we have a year. Since we work from home, this means we can keep on earning regardless of the state of the grid. The changeover is so fast, the lights don't flicker, the TV and computers do not quit, etc.
One other thing we like was the ability to participate in programs supplying power to the grid during peak load times when there is a shortfall of supply. This a virtual Powerplant program and we get a check for around $200-400/year from selling power back the utility.
Peace of mind is priceless. :)
Funny, the solar salesman told me I didn't need a battery, but luckily I insisted. With a couple of power outages, my food didn't spoil, and the high cost of electricity here in So Cal when the sun goes down I can still use my battery. So I would say, if you can afford it there really isin't a down side for not having a battery.
Absolutely agree for SoCal. You should all have batteries there.
With NEM3 and increasing rates in CA, I am trying to spec my battery to last at least till 11pm. Then I will pay PG&E for non peak rate until sunrise.
Yes, if you live in an area with incompetent politicians and an incompetent PUC, then you need to be as independent as possible. Thankfully, I live in the northeast where we have largely sane politicians (NY is the exception) and relatively sane and logical PUCs so our energy policies and strategy isn’t complete rubbish as in California, Germany and a few other places.
We got our solar with a Tesla Powerwall battery in late '22. Our sales guy told us, "Solar is an investment. A battery isn't." But, my wife and I(empty nesters and now retired) wanted the convenience and peace of mind, knowing we'd have backup during these increasingly frequent outages in energy expensive Nor Cal. So far, it's worked beautifully. We also knew we'd eventually get an electrified car of some type, which we did a few months ago. We had that future plan factored in while determining how many panels to get.
Might not be worth it for some but they are a godsend for others!
You also want batteries not just for emergency backup, but to allow your solar to continue producing when the grid is out. No grid, no battery, no solar power regardless of how sunny it is outside.
Yes!! Was looking into solar and that was a show stopper for us at the time until a solution. Wasn't going to have this system that couldn't work with sunny days but the grid being down.
Thanks for pointing that out!
If your grid is out so often that this is a real factor, then you have far bigger problems.
I tend to agree, batteries are not worth the costs involved. But we did add two Enphase Batteries this year. We are lucky in that we were able to get the CA NM-2 program.
Good for 20 years. After watching your video last year on the upcoming, I hope, Enpahse Bidirectional EV charger, we bought a used 2021 Nlssan Leaf +. 60 kW battery.
Our two battery backup only gives us 20 or so hours of battery supply. Not an issue if it is summer time, but during the winter rainy season there may not be enough sunshine to recharge the backup batteries. When the Enphase Bidirectional EV charger is available and installed we will have another 5 days of battery capacity. This made financial sense to me. The cost of the Leaf was only 20k after 4k rebate. I can't buy 60kW of batteries and installation for 20k. Our goal is to be independent of P.G.&E. as much as possible. Electric rates are only going higher. Last year we received a check for $240.00 and paid nothing for electricity. The whole home system we have was quite costly but going forward we are good.
Thank you Joe for all the useful information you proved.
I am hoping for the same. I want Tesla to support direct DC to DC charging between PW3 and EV. This will be faster and more efficient.
if you are off grid....batts pretty much required
My power company (Europe/Slovakia) charges 7c/kWh for power + 10c/kWh for "distribution". You store your excess in a virtual battery, but when you withdraw, you still need to pay the distribution fee. So there's no way to completely eliminate the bill, but overall comes out 20% better than 4:1 net metering. Plus you only get to withdraw the same "kind": if you have dual tariff, the power you store during off-peak can only be used off-peak and vice versa.
On the other hand, pylontech's 5kWh(~1500$) with advertised 6000 cycles at 80%DOD (so 4kWh) comes out to 6.25c/kWh over its lifetime
My contract with the power company expires in about 4 years, when that happens I will install a battery system, currently I am using them as my battery.
Trust me they will find a way sooner to charge you more and you will wish to get batteries sooner than later. Plus your system in a power outgage will be worthless
Good video, but I disagree with your video title.
When I go camping, the tent I use will never bring in any revenue. However, the tent "pays" for itself the first time it keeps me dry during an overnight rain. Batteries are not necessarily the best financial investment, but they DO have a return on investment and the financial return is faster when the prices of electricity goes up.
"Financial sense" of the return on investment depends on future electricity rates, but practicality during grid power outages is priceless.
our battery has saved us for several power outages, the longest was 4.5 hours we never adjusted our habits, best thing we ever invested in
Thanks Joe, but you missed a big one: Virtual Power Plant systems. Income from those programs, depending on how consistent, can be a big boon to battery financials calculations.
I don’t have any solar but have off-peak for charging an electric furnace, and an electric car. I can save 2/3 of my electricity bill monthly if I had a battery system that can cover my daily usage, and more if it can charge fully overnight on off-peak rates. I will give you a call for a consultation. Great content!
Kudos for honesty!
It's not about saving money.
It's not about recouping the money spent.
It's all about security.
Security of having power when the grid goes down.
You wouldn't think about recouping on your investment with regards to a backup generator, so why would you on batteries?
Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries prices have been falling and will continue to do so as china slashes prices this year into next.
And there's new battery technologies coming down the road like Sodium Phosphate and others.
The nice thing is, you don't have to buy all the batteries at one time. Buy 1 or 2 now, then 1 or 2 here and there as you can afford them.
I know you always recommend to have a generator as a back up for emergency preparedness and that a DC coupled system is more efficient. Are there any inverters out there that work with a DC generator and would that be a more efficient situation?
I've seen a few comments where perhaps the wrong assumption is getting made w.r.t. a generator added beyond the battery. I took the commenter saying having a "portable" (propane) generator. I don't consider there to be much mtce required for something like this vs a "permanent installed" generator. Portable dual fuel generators are not that expensive depending on what size one needs relatively speaking.
I personally plan to have battery capacity to cover critical loads for an outage along with some amount for daily/peak type loading. The portable dual fuel generator is to further support outage coverage (i.e., critical loads plus a bit extra) especially over non-sunny periods.
I appreciate the video. Thks for the effort.
Peace of mind is the best benefit for sure, especially if you have medical needs like refrigerated medicine, CPAP or any other medical need, you definitely want solar and batteries IMHO. The only other thing you could do is have a properly wired generator backup.
4:30, yes this is what happened to me i installed in 2021 and the electric company changed the contract on me in 2023. Went from +-$10 a month to now +-$100 PLUS my solar loan, needless to say I am looking at batteries to stick it to them.
I agree with your title. For most people who experience significant power outages, it may make economic sense depending on your needs and your piece of mind need, but otherwise it exponentially increases the cost of the install. I was 'sold' on a small battery backup with generator system that hasn't been used once in 4 years. While tested, I have zero confidence it will do what it is supposed to when an outage happens. Also I was not informed at the time that the solar array during the day would not work to provide power if the grid was down. My fault for not understanding how that would work, but it has irritated me ever since. I could upgrade to new microinverters and create a microgrid, but not economically viable. I should have just installed a regular solar array only...hindsight is 20/20.
Thank you Joe for your videos. I really enjoy them. This was a very good summary.
I have a residential solar power system with full net metering and no backup power. For power during grid outages, I had planned to install a battery backup during the solar install but backed out at the last minute when I realized the enormous cost and low capacity in both max kw and hours.
I would love to see an objective future video from you comparing battery backup to generator backup cost. I know there are many variables so it’s not a simple choice. I’m pretty sure a propane based generator would provide more power for much less cost in my situation.
Have I overlooked something??? Waiting for your video Joe. 😊
Hi and thanks for the question/comment. Overall, I think solar batteries are a better value than a traditional propane generator when you consider the 30% federal tax credit and the lifetime cost of operating a generator (fuel + annual maintenance package). The nice this about batteries are they are a one-time cost with $0 ongoing operating expense.
@@SolarSurge Thank you for the quick reply.
I wonder if replacing batteries in 8-10 years could be a much bigger cost and hassle overall compared to a generator for some of us. One of the many big variables is cost of propane which depends on how often the backup power is needed. There may be a point where using the generator on average less than X hours per year makes it more cost effective.
I have had my solar panels for over 16 years. Back then house batteries were not available, at least that I was aware of. I live in So CA and the utility co throughout the years have changed their rates that I went from paying initially about $200 / yr to my current yearly NEM costs of about $1,500. I looked into batteries and the cost to purchase and install is around $25K +. I would love to purchase whole house batteries as they do have a great blackout solution and utility independence but my ROI would be about 16 + years, way too long for me.... If I could get that down to about 8 years MAX I would seriously consider them.
No net metering here. No point in entering a selling agreement with the utility when you have local storage. Peak shaving first, then storage. Extra can go to an electric water heater. Then you have a whole house UPS as well.
Batteries are necessary or if you have a vehicle to home option, you can run for days. Also think of a geothermal setup as that will make the electrical draw a minimum.
Good info.
People in Texas are still waiting for their power to be restored from last week's hurricane. Solar and batteries are insurance not an investment.
In DK (Part of EU). we always pay 14 Cent pr. Kw in tax drawn from the net. And additional 10 cent for distribution doing peak hours. In off peak hours we typical pay 5 cent for distribution. So, the total price from the net the lowest price would typically be about 20 cent at the middle of the day and 44 cent doing peak time about dinner time. (Today the electricity itself was -1 cent so the price was 18 cent but that is uncommon.
The key is to do your research and know exactly what kind of solar system you want and why you want it. Know your objectives before you buy. Know what you want before contacting solar companies... A reputable company will work with your budget and needs to help design it. I urge everyone who is interested to educate yourself... I am planning my system now.... it's what I want, not necessarily what will work for everyone else. If you do your own research than you are that less likely to get ripped off with components you don't want.
Sorry not battery related, but didn't tariffs just change dramatically for solar modules? Are you working on a video that explains how that affects pricing of Chinese built modules, vs. Non-Chinese built? I know you said prices have plummeted because of overproduction and demand drop. But is this tariff affecting modules prices alone?
I think there is another important consideration; can you use DC coupled batteries rather than AC coupled batteries. I just installed 30 KwHs of DC coupled Pytes batteries, and they cost (without installation) $12K. You can buy 28 KwHs of EG4s for $8K. If you go with AC coupled batteries like Enphase, Tesla, or Franklin it costs $10K for just 10 KwHs.
Thanks Andy for the comment. You are correct that you can get triple the battery storage per dollar invested with a do it yourself battery installation. I think many are going to choose to go this route in the future.
PW3 is DC couple now
@@Mr_Nobody_CA True, but it is also three times as expensive because it has an inverter that also allows it to be AC coupled.
The Pytes batteries system is quite interesting. I am looking into solar and only got quotes for Enphase and PW. Hmm
@@Mr_Nobody_CA Yep, I had the same problem. I finally just searched for an installer that worked with Sol-Arks (the inverter that I wanted). All 3 of those guys were willing/able to put in Pytes or EG4 batteries.
SDG&E paid me 1.5 cents per KWhr for the 459 kWhr’s that I sent to them last month. Yes, they credited my account with $7. Their cost to me for power used from the grid is about 40 cents per kWhr. Divide them out and you will see that I’m only getting about 4% of the retail rate for the power I send back to the grid. . I’ve had solar for over 20 years so my grandfather clause has expired. They put me on NEM3. It looks like the extra monthly cost will be around $175.
Not sure if anyone has commented about Texas, but they did away with true 1:1. all companies now charge a min monthly fee of $10 to $25 plus you have to pay distribution fees which is another $5/m and 3.5 to 6 cents/kwh
My current plan is time if use so it looks like this as of time of writing
Please note we're a deregulated area
$20/m fee plus $5 distribution fee and 4 cent/kwh fee
The actual company charges
Off peak 3 cents buy back 3 cents
Peak 18 cents bb is 18
Ultra peak 28 cents bb is 28
Not terrible but add that extra 4 cents into the mix now turns into 7,22,32 most of the time my bb is during off peak times so i lose out
I've seen this a number of times/places and my 2 cents. I think battery mtce maybe/is minor. But, I don't believe it is "none". There will be software bugs at times, adjustments to programming/setup/etc as things change and random things. My 2 cents it would be better to say minimal mtce vs none. I believe that is more correct. It also builds more trust in my perspective of the presenter.
Not a big deal; but I saw it again in various comments and sometimes in the videos.
Appreciate the videos and the learning along the way. Thank you.
NEM 3.0 sucks. I pay $0.24 off peak, and $0.60 during peak hours per kw. Edison only credits me $0.03 per kw for any excess electricity produced from my panels. This is a very bad deal, but thank goodness I have tesla powerwalls and have managed so far to not pull any electricity from the grid.
I got on an electric plan Nights Free from 8 pm till 6am. I have batteries but not enough to make it through the night running my AC. So my system is set to charge the batteries at night and from solar during the day. I pay on average $7 dollars a month for grid.
That’s an excellent return on Investment. Does the power company know that you have the batteries programmed this way?
In what country? My meter rental in Tennessee is over $30 per month.
What country are you in? That can't possibly be anywhere in the US.
@@flyingjeff1984Texas
@@SolarSurge yes I had a sell back plan before that and it was costing me at night to run my ac
YES! Solar batteries from Tesla, Enphase and other are OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive! Whether you choose a solution from Ecoflow, or build your own battery system to your home you will pay a fraction of the price!
Took batteries for a couple of reasons living in the islands the rates are 43 cents kWh. Losing power for hours just about everyday bills are never right and no grid access fee net billing at 13 cents buy back. Why not only make sense peace of mind is priceless tired of pulling out my generators checking oil gas no more.
Anyone who stays in California must really love climate over freedom. I've visited there. Nice landscape. Everything else sucks. (Of course, Canadians don't even have the climate---just the headaches.)
I am trying to figure out what's next in solar. I have a few years left to sell my power back 1:1. After that, I won't be interested in giving the utility ANYTHING (it's a long story.)
CoServ Coop in North Texas has axed their NetMeter Program as of FEB 2023, but after lots of complaints (I guess) backtracked on the 5 year Grandfather clause and allowed previous installed to stay on the old plan for the life of their account.
What are your thoughts on battery cycling for daily use vs life of the battery?
PowerSouth here in Alabama charges $3.48 per kw each month based on what your panels are capable of producing. Sound illegal to me ;(
Great breakdown. Is there an upcoming video on "generator use cases" to go along with this topic?
That’s a good idea. Overall, I do think batteries are still a better value than generators when you consider the lifetime cost to operate and maintain the generator. However, I think the batteries in combination with a generator makes sense for truly independent Off Grid set up.
Is the power provided by a battery something I can control? Can I toggle between using the battery as a source of energy and the power company? Or is the energy flow pretty much automated such that the battery "kicks" in and out depending on how much energy is stored? As you can probably tell, I am a novice in my knowledge of solar batteries, so if someone can provide an answer in layman's terms, it would be appreciated.
Sunrun PPA all day 🔋⚡️
California brought to light the potential to have an investment in solar devastated without warming.
Correct. Even though they are more expensive, I like the idea of having my own batteries so I can use my own Solar day or night regardless of what the utility does with their buyback program.
@@SolarSurge Yup, the aspect of at least some degree of energy independence has always been the most attractive element of home generation. The most daunting aspect remains being able to financially justify it, and with what California did just casts doubt on the reliability of any calculations toward that goal. Most have to finance an installation and the possibility that the length of time to pay off the loan or availability of funds suddenly changing while paying it off is a nightmare scenario.
Good talk per usual. Batteries are just too expensive. Home storage batteries have an installed cost of about $1,000 per kWh. The average home would need 50 kWh of battery storage to go off grid. So a home battery system costs more than an expensive EV! We need less expensive home storage batteries.
There are NO "good net-metering programs", which is why this entire video is off base. Net metering has always been the carrot, and now people are all upset because they're getting the stick, instead. Anyone with a brain saw this was coming and based their plans around no net metering, which was a horrible concept. It takes from the poor and gives to the rich, even more than traditional solar and batteries does. The biggest problem with solar is it produces the most power when the grid needs it the least. Utility companies have had to continue building to a peak capacity that was less and less utilized during off-peak hours, hurting their profitability when net metering was gutting their rate case. This was benefitting a relative handful of the wealthiest customers while putting the cost of all other usage on those-less-fortunate. Salesmen who sold solar and/or batteries on the premise of net metering were short-sighted, if not downright disingenuous, using a deeply flawed financial pitfall to entice their customers into purchase something they could not otherwise afford.
For people with just a little bit of DIY ability, solar batteries absolutely make sense, because they are doing the RIGHT thing, for the RIGHT reason, whereas net-metering was always doing the wrong thing, period.
PAYING $25K-$50K just for batteries alone is not worth it for most people. It would take you 20 years to get your money back. Not even considering you have to replace the batties again in 10 years.
Tesla battery how much $$$ per kw where if you do DIY you get down to 80$ per Kw of lithium. Even lower if you go grade b or used EV batteries.
I got battery's to cover grid going down, happens enough that I just got tick off enough to do it
Makes sense. You can't put a price tag on peace of mind.
Anyone who has a grid connection is relying on the electric company. It is pure folly to think or say otherwise. Now, those who go completely off-grid can market his claim. 😁
What's a solar battery? Surely it's just a battery isn't it?
Dude what are you rambling about. You said you had 3 reasons you might want batteries. Then you gave 5 identical scenarios. Mind you the #1 reason was never even mentioned.. that is to be totally off grid and self sufficient. And reducing your carbon footprint.. yes it's expensive as hell. But you can start small and keep adding to your system. That works for alot of us..
Just buy an Ionic 5. You can use it as a vehicle, charge it during the day, power your system overnight. 60kwh back up battery pack!
Good point. If you have an EV with bi-directional charging capability, it might not make sense to purchase a separate home battery.
@@SolarSurge I would and did still get batteries. For everyday use. But if there is a long period of no solar I can plug in the car cause it has a inverter/V2L system. (Tesla does not) If you are just buying a system and batteries are one of the most expensive parts of the system. You can save some money with your Ionic and buy the batteries later or you can buy just enough batteries to get you though the night. With the Ionic as the emergency back up.
Somewhat contradictory...
Batteries are always worth it if the grid goes down and the sun isn't out.
honestly batteries are dumb, if you are planning to get battery system you can just get a vehicle with v2h capabilities. The cheapest ford lighting is 44k in my area and I believe they will get cheaper overtime.
What happens when you go on vacation in your Lightning and the power goes out at home😮
@@skydouglas996
I’ll keep it simple
(No solar/ only ev charger and a plug in the bed)
Just like a generator once it’s out of fuel no power
(Solar with iq8+ micro inverters/ plugged in and throttled charging and plug in bed)
Juice to the house and only have refrigerator on and dehumidifier.
(Solar with sun run with special bidirectional charger so you don’t need 2 plugs)
Same operation as 2nd one. For “Vacation”
I stopped at 4:53. Has he mentioned why batteries are not worth it ????? Does not make any logical sense.
Dude what are you rambling about. You said you had 3 reasons you might want batteries. Then you gave 5 identical scenarios. Mind you the #1 reason was never even mentioned.. that is to be totally off grid and self sufficient. And reducing your carbon footprint.. yes it's expensive as hell. But you can start small and keep adding to your system. That works for alot of us..