I was kind of hoping the same. I recently straightened a trophy truck housing with a 3.5" x 3/8" wall thickness axle tube. Did it by securing on a huge beam and preloading in the direction it needed to go then using lots of heat/quench cycles. Is now running true
Personally I like the idea of flipped arms for the way it changes the geometry for a better ride and in my situation that is more important than clearance but it's a great side affect to have. Will definitely be looking into a kit in the future. Your build is very interesting , look forward to more
Matt will probably address this (either comment or video) but for the DIY’r if you want to straighten an axle housing after welding you’ll need the following. Centreless ground solid bar , pucks to suit carrier bearing location in diff housing (and solid bar) a steel beam (UB ) , lifting chains and at least a 10 tonne bottle jack (but a porta press is favourable) Simply chain the housing to the beam ( obviously one chain each end) and press the housing in the appropriate areas to return to straight. This will take multiple goes and moving the hydraulic jack/cylinder about as necessary.
I’ve watched all the other 4wd boys weld in diff braces on the million dollar cars and not one of them has checked to see how straight they are .. they all probably watching matty freaking out now haha
Great video mate, and you’ve covered a lot of what I agree with. One major issue (other than welding distortion) that I often see is the bracing/reinforcement being placed inboard of the spring points/ link mounts etc. Your rear housing was on point (end to end) but the front (for obvious reasons) was inboard. Given the input forces are at the wheel and the resistance to these is at the links, springs and bumpstops, the bracing isn’t doing much. In fact it could be introducing a greater difference in stiffness at the highest stress point which is less than ideal.
@@6226superhurricane yep but that’s not what I’m taking about. You might be from the US where Salisbury style housings are much more common and tubes spinning a potential problem. These banjo style housings don’t spin tubes as they are a completely different construction. My comment was based on the vast majority of weld in strengthening kits and owner made stuff for Banjo housings which are used in Toyotas, Nissans , LRs etc
@@husq2100 nope i'm from australia, salisbury are landrover diffs they made their own stamped housings and nodular iron housings based off dana designs. i was just pointing out that a truss doesn't have to go wheel to wheel to be useful. the centre section is the main problem area, as evidenced by the stamped housings that break axletubes near the centre.
@@6226superhurricane A quick history lesson, Salisbury was an American company (Salisbury Wheel Company) founded in 1901, they started making front then rear axle assemblies a few years later, then were bought by Spicer in 1919 but still built the axles. They supplied MANY vehicles (including war time jeeps) with their axle design, which was referred to as a Salisbury. They were renamed Spicer Axle Division in about 1970. It’s one of those brand recognition things. So you have Dana (44, 60, 70 etc ) Chev (12 bolt) , AAM, Sterling diffs etc but the housing style can be referred to as a Salisbury (and even US companies like Currire do so) I’ve never seen a banjo snap its “tubes” ( that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened) but have seen plenty bend at the ends. It’s simple physics. Forces acting one way (at the wheel) forces resisted in the opposite directions (at the outer links, spring mounts and bumps). There is nothing acting upon the middle of the housing. By reinforcing the middle of the housing and stopping that reinforcement just inboard of the resistance points you are creating a greater change in stiffness, which creates a greater stress riser. In short it’s not a good idea. If you are bending housing to the point of tube tear out/ shearing , you need to start from scratch or cut all the bracketry off, strengthen then fab all new mounting points. If you’ve taken a big hit and stopped the centre area from bending or failing without reinforcing to the ends, 100% your ends are bent…
I would love to see how the arms are made and brackets as well. Is there a way to get a flipped arm DIY fabrication kit to the US? Or maybe laser cut file sent to me or a trusted distributor who could cut them and ship them in the US? I have a Disco and a Classic with 80 series axles under one currently and one in a soon to be swap. I too would love to see the straightening process in long-form with all the details. It may save my rearend one day.
So, just me or did the thumb say straightening differential? Of course if you preheat there is far less chance of warpage and cracking (especially on cast). Not trying to be nasty there. The compensation by flex in the reverse was different. I'm somewhat surprised it only had a 4mm effect.
You would have to preheat the entire housing to at least 200c and then monitor the heat throughout the process making sure not to get too hot. Pre tension can be used but it’s an art and generally need more than most people think, plus the equipment to do that given the odd shape and welding locations. Fixtures can work but again they are complicated due to shape etc and if you inadvertently restrain in the wrong location or direction you’ll cause more distortion… I’ve only built a few housings but with simple tools I find it a mater of good design, good welding procedure and then straighten.
Awesome Matt, that’s a dreamy front housing and cool how you’ve made the flipped arms low profile to maximise uptravel!👌 Would love to get numbers on up/down travel and ride height once it’s all setup for context
Was hanging out to watch to straightening it, left out the best bit. Also after your test with the pipe which technique did you go for? Did you end up preloading the housing?
I’ll probably do a separate video on the straightening. Na just welded it out like I normally would, stitch it till it’s done over like 15 minutes. No pre loading I think it’s a bit of a waste of effort, no idea which way it’s going to move when your welding it
Yeah that’s it! Yeah I may do a separate video on the straightening process, everyone seems very interested although I didn’t think it would be/ it’s a bit hard to do at home. Shows what I know! 🤣
Great video Matt. I have braced housings before and used the take your time method, but I will generally only weld 25mm at a time then move around, let it cool and repeat. It looked like your stitch welds were around 75mm in the experiment you did, do you think a much shorter stitch weld would produce different results?
I don't think it'd make a difference. It's not the just the "timeframe" that pulls the diff, it's the added metal of the filler wire. You just can't get around the fact that you're adding metal to the assembly in a molten form that then cools and contracts.
your test showed how welding warps material, but it isn't really applicable to welding a truss on as there was no truss. a well fitted truss, tacked on at many places, welded using short stitches and moving around does not usually create a bent housing. at least in my experience not on dana diffs with a nodular iron centre section and heavy wall axle tubes. maybe it's a bigger issue on the stamped sheet metal housings.
Hey Matt, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on this, I recently welded up my front GU diff using a road runner kit. I followed the directions as per road runner and similar to superior. I did 50mm passes over the brace and diff pumpkin housing, I did this over 2-3 days, welding 2-3 50mm passes at a time and letting cool, I obviously tacked and fitted it all up. With the knuckles being cast I wanted to pre heat so I left the housing in the sun on a hot day and map gassed the knuckles and welded on the 8mm knuckles plates, these are opposite each side so hoped that they would counter each other out, these I welded side to side but didn't let them cool obviously as I was trying to keep the heat in with cast and then let them cool over the rest of the day gradually. I've been running the front diff for a few months, maybe putting 1-2k on the car, wheel alignment was was fine and no front axle seal leaks however I've only been in 4x4 for 200-300k of those ks. Do you find these home jobs tend to have bent housings and any issues with this process? Obviously been a home job I didn't have any way to check if the housing was bent pre or post..
The problem is the stresses are accumulative. When a weld cools, it shrinks. You might reduce this with not doing them all at once or even “back stepping” but they won’t be neutral. Peening the hot weld can help as well. I’d guess your housing is not true. But you might be lucky and it might be minimal. I’m not familiar with GU but I don’t run axle seals in the housing in my LR. A CV will allow a little more misalignment than a straight rear axle will. The other thing, are the swivel balls cast or forged? They can look very similar. Forging would be superior in strength.
You’ll probably be fine, Gu brace kits tend to go ok when they sit down halfway onto the tube both sides sort of cancelling each other out if that makes sense. They can usually do with a bit of a touch up but nothing too extreme if it was done how you have.
If you are retaining a standard arm then flipping it will do little. If you change the bush separation at axle end or the overall length of arm this would.
@husq2100 I have played around a little with the suspension calculators but not worked out how to calculate for radius arms. I would have thought the angle of the arms would affect the anti dive characteristics. The separation of the mounts at the diff end would effect the stability under brakes and obviously flex. But for a rear triangulated 4 link the link separation at the diff housing is around 25% of tyre diameter which isn't part of anti squat calculation, more a resistance to the diff rolling under accelerations and braking. Happy to be corrected and would be even happier if someone could show how to put radius arms into a suspension calculator
@@bennyjahmin3953 I was a bit wrong. The axle end separation will absolutely affect anti squat/dive on a 3 link or 4 link because it’s the relationship between upper and lower control arms that determines the convergence points, but on a RA it is simply the chassis end pivot that would change anything . A Longer radius arm up front means less anti lift/dive. As for angle of the arm, it doesn’t matter if on top or bottom of the housing the convergence is still the same at the chassis end and the line from tyre contact still strikes through the convergence point. As for axle roll axis angle, some will argue that this changes with flipped radius arms, but I can’t see how it can give its physical attachment and attributes to and with the axle housing. I always plot my front roll axis (with RAs) from axle tube centre to centre of RA chassis bush. Regarding how to calculate RA anti lift (anti dive is a braking force and also requires brake bias in the equation) just use the 3 link calculator. Lowers will be the lower axle bush and chassis bush centres, upper will be the upper axle bush and chassis bush centres. It won’t be truly accurate for change through travel as a 3 link will have a slightly different pinion change and relationship change between upper and lower than a “fixed” RA but it will be close enough for your needs.
Would be super interesting to see the process of how you straighten the housing
I was really looking forward to seeing how that's done
Same
I was kind of hoping the same. I recently straightened a trophy truck housing with a 3.5" x 3/8" wall thickness axle tube. Did it by securing on a huge beam and preloading in the direction it needed to go then using lots of heat/quench cycles. Is now running true
I might do a separate video on it
@@mattkinsela would also like to see if preheating and wrapping in a fibreglass blanket to slow the cooling has an effecting on the warping
Would love to see the process of straightening a diff 👌🏽
Yeah I might do a seperate video on it
Yeah I've got a slightly kinked front on my GU. Would love it straightened and braced.
Really keen to see the process of how you straighten the diff housings
Yeah I might do a separate video!
Definitely like to see how you straighten the diff
Yeah I might do a seperate video
Would love to see the process of straightening a diff for at home builds
Might do a seperate video, not really that easy at home though
I love the detail you're going into mate. It's awesome to go through the thinking of the build and design decisions.
Cheers mate
Great video and some really good info on the diff bracing.
Have a good Christmas mate
Personally I like the idea of flipped arms for the way it changes the geometry for a better ride and in my situation that is more important than clearance but it's a great side affect to have. Will definitely be looking into a kit in the future.
Your build is very interesting , look forward to more
Nice build and really nice parts you make....... well thinking fellow.
Master craftsmen. Well done
Matt will probably address this (either comment or video) but for the DIY’r if you want to straighten an axle housing after welding you’ll need the following. Centreless ground solid bar , pucks to suit carrier bearing location in diff housing (and solid bar) a steel beam (UB ) , lifting chains and at least a 10 tonne bottle jack (but a porta press is favourable)
Simply chain the housing to the beam ( obviously one chain each end) and press the housing in the appropriate areas to return to straight. This will take multiple goes and moving the hydraulic jack/cylinder about as necessary.
On the money!
Are there go-to places to buy a centreless ground solid bar? I assume a steel supplier but what about the pucks? Cheers
I’ve watched all the other 4wd boys weld in diff braces on the million dollar cars and not one of them has checked to see how straight they are .. they all probably watching matty freaking out now haha
Great video mate, and you’ve covered a lot of what I agree with. One major issue (other than welding distortion) that I often see is the bracing/reinforcement being placed inboard of the spring points/ link mounts etc.
Your rear housing was on point (end to end) but the front (for obvious reasons) was inboard. Given the input forces are at the wheel and the resistance to these is at the links, springs and bumpstops, the bracing isn’t doing much. In fact it could be introducing a greater difference in stiffness at the highest stress point which is less than ideal.
Agreed
most inboard trusses are to mount links on and stop the centre section spinning on the axle tubes.
@@6226superhurricane yep but that’s not what I’m taking about. You might be from the US where Salisbury style housings are much more common and tubes spinning a potential problem. These banjo style housings don’t spin tubes as they are a completely different construction.
My comment was based on the vast majority of weld in strengthening kits and owner made stuff for Banjo housings which are used in Toyotas, Nissans , LRs etc
@@husq2100 nope i'm from australia, salisbury are landrover diffs they made their own stamped housings and nodular iron housings based off dana designs.
i was just pointing out that a truss doesn't have to go wheel to wheel to be useful.
the centre section is the main problem area, as evidenced by the stamped housings that break axletubes near the centre.
@@6226superhurricane A quick history lesson, Salisbury was an American company (Salisbury Wheel Company) founded in 1901, they started making front then rear axle assemblies a few years later, then were bought by Spicer in 1919 but still built the axles. They supplied MANY vehicles (including war time jeeps) with their axle design, which was referred to as a Salisbury. They were renamed Spicer Axle Division in about 1970.
It’s one of those brand recognition things. So you have Dana (44, 60, 70 etc ) Chev (12 bolt) , AAM, Sterling diffs etc but the housing style can be referred to as a Salisbury (and even US companies like Currire do so)
I’ve never seen a banjo snap its “tubes” ( that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened) but have seen plenty bend at the ends. It’s simple physics. Forces acting one way (at the wheel) forces resisted in the opposite directions (at the outer links, spring mounts and bumps). There is nothing acting upon the middle of the housing.
By reinforcing the middle of the housing and stopping that reinforcement just inboard of the resistance points you are creating a greater change in stiffness, which creates a greater stress riser. In short it’s not a good idea.
If you are bending housing to the point of tube tear out/ shearing , you need to start from scratch or cut all the bracketry off, strengthen then fab all new mounting points.
If you’ve taken a big hit and stopped the centre area from bending or failing without reinforcing to the ends, 100% your ends are bent…
I would love to see how the arms are made and brackets as well. Is there a way to get a flipped arm DIY fabrication kit to the US? Or maybe laser cut file sent to me or a trusted distributor who could cut them and ship them in the US? I have a Disco and a Classic with 80 series axles under one currently and one in a soon to be swap.
I too would love to see the straightening process in long-form with all the details. It may save my rearend one day.
D2 radius arms will be longer than Toyota LC and they have big flexible bushes….
We do have a diy kit we send overseas regularly, shoot me an email man!
Bloody awesome video keep it up
Please show us how you actually straighten the diff! really excited / need this for home builds.
Love the content. So much great information in a short video.
Keep it up mate
Cheers mate, will do!
So, just me or did the thumb say straightening differential?
Of course if you preheat there is far less chance of warpage and cracking (especially on cast). Not trying to be nasty there.
The compensation by flex in the reverse was different. I'm somewhat surprised it only had a 4mm effect.
You would have to preheat the entire housing to at least 200c and then monitor the heat throughout the process making sure not to get too hot.
Pre tension can be used but it’s an art and generally need more than most people think, plus the equipment to do that given the odd shape and welding locations.
Fixtures can work but again they are complicated due to shape etc and if you inadvertently restrain in the wrong location or direction you’ll cause more distortion…
I’ve only built a few housings but with simple tools I find it a mater of good design, good welding procedure and then straighten.
Awesome Matt, that’s a dreamy front housing and cool how you’ve made the flipped arms low profile to maximise uptravel!👌
Would love to get numbers on up/down travel and ride height once it’s all setup for context
Numbers for what mate? As in travel?
Was hanging out to watch to straightening it, left out the best bit. Also after your test with the pipe which technique did you go for? Did you end up preloading the housing?
I’ll probably do a separate video on the straightening.
Na just welded it out like I normally would, stitch it till it’s done over like 15 minutes. No pre loading I think it’s a bit of a waste of effort, no idea which way it’s going to move when your welding it
Another awesome video mate…
Thank you
Cheers mate, you might like one I’m working on at the moment 😉
@@mattkinsela can’t wait to see it 😊
Love the work
Thanks
Great job. Great videos 👍
Keen to do the flipped arms on 78 series
Thanks mate, yeah it’s a great mod!
@ I will want to send you my housing , it’s way out of my wheelhouse to do that kind of work. What’s your turnaround time. Thank you
2 days of the arms are in stock, which we do tend to have on the shelf
@ I’ll send you an email to work out the transport
10 20mm flat weld opposite for braising
Fiber disc, aka Fibre disc
Are you doing a separate video on straightening?
Yeah that’s it!
Yeah I may do a separate video on the straightening process, everyone seems very interested although I didn’t think it would be/ it’s a bit hard to do at home. Shows what I know! 🤣
Nice work Matt. Makes me wonder how many bent axle housing there are out there :)
Lots. Small amounts get away with it, but more bent can definitely lead to failed wheel bearings, snapped drive flange bolts or axles.
Yeah there would be a fair few!
Great video Matt. I have braced housings before and used the take your time method, but I will generally only weld 25mm at a time then move around, let it cool and repeat. It looked like your stitch welds were around 75mm in the experiment you did, do you think a much shorter stitch weld would produce different results?
I don't think it'd make a difference. It's not the just the "timeframe" that pulls the diff, it's the added metal of the filler wire. You just can't get around the fact that you're adding metal to the assembly in a molten form that then cools and contracts.
Maybe slightly but it’s probably negligible
your test showed how welding warps material, but it isn't really applicable to welding a truss on as there was no truss. a well fitted truss, tacked on at many places, welded using short stitches and moving around does not usually create a bent housing. at least in my experience not on dana diffs with a nodular iron centre section and heavy wall axle tubes.
maybe it's a bigger issue on the stamped sheet metal housings.
You’re right, it’s way less of an issue on the heavy wall Dana or Sheetmetal housings, more metal needs more heat I suppose.
@@mattkinsela stamped sheetmetal as in hilux, cruiser, patrol, 9"
Hey Matt, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on this, I recently welded up my front GU diff using a road runner kit. I followed the directions as per road runner and similar to superior. I did 50mm passes over the brace and diff pumpkin housing, I did this over 2-3 days, welding 2-3 50mm passes at a time and letting cool, I obviously tacked and fitted it all up. With the knuckles being cast I wanted to pre heat so I left the housing in the sun on a hot day and map gassed the knuckles and welded on the 8mm knuckles plates, these are opposite each side so hoped that they would counter each other out, these I welded side to side but didn't let them cool obviously as I was trying to keep the heat in with cast and then let them cool over the rest of the day gradually. I've been running the front diff for a few months, maybe putting 1-2k on the car, wheel alignment was was fine and no front axle seal leaks however I've only been in 4x4 for 200-300k of those ks. Do you find these home jobs tend to have bent housings and any issues with this process? Obviously been a home job I didn't have any way to check if the housing was bent pre or post..
The problem is the stresses are accumulative. When a weld cools, it shrinks. You might reduce this with not doing them all at once or even “back stepping” but they won’t be neutral. Peening the hot weld can help as well. I’d guess your housing is not true. But you might be lucky and it might be minimal. I’m not familiar with GU but I don’t run axle seals in the housing in my LR. A CV will allow a little more misalignment than a straight rear axle will.
The other thing, are the swivel balls cast or forged? They can look very similar. Forging would be superior in strength.
You’ll probably be fine, Gu brace kits tend to go ok when they sit down halfway onto the tube both sides sort of cancelling each other out if that makes sense. They can usually do with a bit of a touch up but nothing too extreme if it was done how you have.
Can you put the strait pipe in the housing before you brace it,
So you don’t have to straiten it ?
It would bend that bar and you'll never get it out.
Na it’ll just pull the bar with it unfortunately
How much does the flip arm change the anti dive geometry?
If you are retaining a standard arm then flipping it will do little. If you change the bush separation at axle end or the overall length of arm this would.
@husq2100 I have played around a little with the suspension calculators but not worked out how to calculate for radius arms. I would have thought the angle of the arms would affect the anti dive characteristics. The separation of the mounts at the diff end would effect the stability under brakes and obviously flex. But for a rear triangulated 4 link the link separation at the diff housing is around 25% of tyre diameter which isn't part of anti squat calculation, more a resistance to the diff rolling under accelerations and braking.
Happy to be corrected and would be even happier if someone could show how to put radius arms into a suspension calculator
@@bennyjahmin3953 I was a bit wrong. The axle end separation will absolutely affect anti squat/dive on a 3 link or 4 link because it’s the relationship between upper and lower control arms that determines the convergence points, but on a RA it is simply the chassis end pivot that would change anything . A Longer radius arm up front means less anti lift/dive.
As for angle of the arm, it doesn’t matter if on top or bottom of the housing the convergence is still the same at the chassis end and the line from tyre contact still strikes through the convergence point.
As for axle roll axis angle, some will argue that this changes with flipped radius arms, but I can’t see how it can give its physical attachment and attributes to and with the axle housing. I always plot my front roll axis (with RAs) from axle tube centre to centre of RA chassis bush.
Regarding how to calculate RA anti lift (anti dive is a braking force and also requires brake bias in the equation) just use the 3 link calculator. Lowers will be the lower axle bush and chassis bush centres, upper will be the upper axle bush and chassis bush centres. It won’t be truly accurate for change through travel as a 3 link will have a slightly different pinion change and relationship change between upper and lower than a “fixed” RA but it will be close enough for your needs.
Arm flip won’t change it, the only thing you can do on a radius arm setup to help is extend the arm and lower the chassis mount to the ground.
hydraulic bumps would be awesome. check out kings.
Na no thanks man!
I need some of them gloves and some spates for my thongs 😅
Haha!
Do you even sleep bro? 😴
Sometimes 😂