I’m just a RUclips future sailor current non-sailor and I support this message. It is always great seeing the thought that goes into future maintenance and taking everything into account.
I no longer have a dishwasher after 60 years and now live in a hard water area. I have found I have to add bleach once in a while as my white dishes get a grudgy looking film! My neighbor and I feel like our dishes never look really clean, like with a dishwasher. Both of us are contemplating getting a small dishwasher like our neighbor has! Glad I had one once Covid hit!
I dont blame him top loaders are expensive so I hope he finds one to fit the corner where they have chosen to fit one if she lets him have one which I think she has as the blowback from subscribers including me would be massive I am just wondering whether it is a mutual decision to go without daggerboards to me it makes sense to go without them I would do the same if I had a choice as dagger boards are expensive and you have more safety with the wiglets as it protects the rudder as they have said and it makes the boat stronger to boot so it's a win-win.
Remember when you guys were moving onto a sailboat before you knew how to sail and fast forward today. Now, you are stepping up in performance. Tiny steps lead up to dream goals met. ❤
As an Aussie, we were so impressed when Australia 2 won the America Cup 1983, back in the day. The big advantage they had was the design of the keel with a bulb and winglets, by Ben Lexcen, which started the tradition of winged keels.
I think you made the right decision on the dagger boards. You don't need any added complexity and failure points in your boat for what you do. I guess if it takes you another day to get somewhere it's a small price to pay for having to sit on the hard for months to fix a dagger board. It goes along with the KISS principle which in most things in life is a very good rule of thumb. Keep the good stuff coming guys and happy anniversary.
That doesn't really make much sense. Avoiding dagger boards does avoid some complexity but not much and pretty much anything which will break a daggerboard will also either break or heavily damage a standard keel. Additionally, while HH boats while extremely impressive from an engineering standpoint they are definitely not KISS. They're more or less comfortable raceboats. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that as a boat, but as a cruiser they're terrible. Everything is hyper-digitalised, made out of carbon-fibre (which while an amazing material takes damage extremely poorly) and there is very little in terms of back ups. A lightning strike and/or collision with a container, whale or uncharted ground will make the boat extremely dangerous and will very possibly sink it. All these problems are present to some extent in all modern cat manufacturers and the way keels are built for almost all modern monohulls makes them extremely dangerous for cross-ocean sailing too (kraken is, to the best of my knowledge, the only manufacturer making boats with an integral keel). However, HH is a particularly bad offender, they build some of the least durable and worst suited boats for cursing and market them for that exact purpose.
Dagger boards are simple to fix with no need to haul out... Keels are way more ongoing maintenance and when damaged can be more expensive due to haulout costs
The winged keel, if my memory serves me correctly, was introduced to the sailing world in the American's Cup race in 1983 onboard the Australia II 12m boat. The keel was designed and tested in secret by Ben Lexcen in the Netherlands. Great Aussie/Dutch innovation!
For his 1983 challenge, Ben Lexcen revolutionised sailing yacht design with the creation of the winged keel. Described as 'upside down', the keel lowered drag, made the boat more stable and manoeuvrable, particularly in tacking. Cheers guys live your videos,Tony Brisbane Australia 🇦🇺
Happy Anniversary! I think you guys made the right decision with the winglets. So stoked to see you guys out on the water with that beast of a boat! Cheers!
If you sail around the world with the trade winds, a dagger board would be in the up position most of the time and give no advantage. I think you made the right decision. I'm looking forward to a race against Parlay Revival. When winglets were introduced into the Americas Cup by Australia, it was a way to outwit the 12 meter rule. When the boat healed over, the winglets gave the boat a deeper draft than the boats without winglets, creating an advantage upwind. It was a brilliant move by the Aussies.
You're right that cruisers will have the daggerboards being in the up position most of the time. However, that doesn't mean they won't be providing an advantage. A dagger board in the up position produces almost no drag as opposed to a minikeel which, even with the best designs, will still produce quite a lot of drag. As for the winglets, to the best of my knowledge you are right about them being designed for and introduced on Australia II, however, the advantage doesn't have anything to do with outwitting rules or any particular length, it's simply a more efficient design for high speeds.
From your transition from RV to Cat Sailing to now designing a high performance Cat, meeting top designers and boat builders... You have become such experts. You can swim with the big fish now. 🐠. The science of boat speed is so mind boggling (engineering & physics). Love how they take the extreme strides and sneak them into a. Cruiser for improvements. So many decisions🥴 can't wait when you take off on the water. Blessings!
The main considerations for me were speed and safety, Dagger boards are safer when the shit hits the fan for real, pull them right up and have nothing to trip over, can not do that with mini keels. Large beam as well. I don't have an escape hatch.
Another wonderful feature of winglets is that they act like a shovel. So when the boat does run aground it digs in and anchors you to that spot so you don’t have to worry about going anywhere while you wait for a tow boat service to arrive and give them all your money!
She's going to be a terrific boat. I'm surprised you were talking about your concern on light wind. From earlier videos, to my understanding this boat's going to do just fine compared to earlier boats.
I agree, you made the correct choice here. The other issue with dagger boards not mentioned is that because they have to make them so strong to withstand those forces constantly that when you do hit something with one, you can end up with a hull breach because the dagger board case cracks which is an even more scary situation. I have a catamaran with dagger boards, and another with mini keels, you can guess which one I use for cruising!
I look at this way... If you get dagger boards you have to know how to use them, and to be honest it adds complexity to every movement you make. I agree the winglets would be my decision as well. I would rather just know my draft is X and cruise into an anchorage and chill....
Coating a dagger board with bottom paint while on the hard can be quite the procedure when they are 12 feet long or longer! Also, one would have to worry about barnacles and such jamming them in the trunks.
A super interesting video this week and a really great interview with someone who actually isn't in sales and knows their stuff - looking forward to seeing Jason going upwind with his hair on fire or maybe a Katniss Everdeen moment for Nikki 🤣. I really would like to know if the winglets are providing lift why are they symmetrical or do they not behave in a fluid like in air so angle of attack is more important? The other question and you sort of answered it is would simply putting on one electric motor make the real advantage of daggerboards in light wind irrelevant - you can effectively increase apparent wind with a bit more air speed so sail higher anyway and a small amount of added energy oversomes any drag deficit of the stub keel and improves lift efficiency, also as the motor is off-centre you reduce leeeway by adding a rotation vector to the hulls so improve vmg.
Jason and Nikki, thanks for digging into the technical in a way that few other content producers do. You've kept the topic narrow, invited expert opinion, kept to to the idea that it is all personal preference and then added a nice dose of local color. The average viewer does not have the time or resources to go pick apart each of these topics to this extent. At the end of the day, despite all of the eco this's and thats, you've still got one of the most impressive pieces of plastic in the ocean, and you're not sanctimonious about it.
Excellente vido. I designed and built a 18' cat after high school (modeled after a photo of a 20' Tornado cat). I used my parents garage stud spacing for the hull bulkheads. Sailed it in Marina Del Rey and Mission Bay San Diego CA. I gained confidence in building anything in the future with this project. I went on to join the Peace Corps in Africa after taking a course in agricultural engineering.
We had a wing keel on our monohull. At anchor I noticed wonderful breezes coming through from the cockpit and thought - that's not right....we should be bow into the wind. Current and wind cause our anchor line to wrap around the wing keel. LOL. Another time in the Bahamas we ran aground in a remote area 3' from depth.....we sat firmly on our wing keel all night while the water drained out below our seacocks - never tipped and then as soon as we felt water lapping the hull we kedged and motored over to the depth. LOL! Fabulous lifestyle!
winglets are in general a much greater obstruction hazard when you get obstructed., you wont be slipping out of the mud or sand, you may not be sliding over fishing gear, you wont be bouncing of of bommies or seawalls in the same way. you're much more likely have a more serious impact, if.....if.. the winglets get involved. It's not like the wings run the full length of the keel. so maybe youll never notice. BUT, WINGLETS ARE THE POLAR OPPOSITE OF A SWING KEEL. i would guess it would be a decision between niche case of wanting to beach her occasianally, vs wanting the performance all of the time
I think you made the right decision. And the smart decision. But I know I would have gone for the daggerboards, probably the curved ones if they were available. I just could not help myself.
Wife and I had the same discussion you two had as we have a HH50 OC being built. I can see her in your videos as it is two over from where yours sit. It might have been the one you filmed the actual keel-winglet on within this video. We came to the conclusion as you two as we are cruisers and the cost difference was also a factor.
@@pauldegan8324 They do not price it out individually...you either get the cruising version or the sport version. Sport version is full carbon hull, carbon mast & boom and carbon dagger boards. The cost of the upgrade package (sport version) from the cruising version is ballpark $350k-$400k USD. That is the figure HH has stated in the various boatshows. I'm not sure the price difference for the H44 that the Wynn's are getting as I can only speak to the HH50. But if I was guessing.... $300k USD
Great video, I was impressed that I actually understood 90% of what Eric was talking about especially the comparison of the winglet on the keel to the winglet on an aircraft. On an aircraft wing there is what's known as wing tip vortex (a swirling motion in the air as it travels off the end of the wing or wing tip), wing tip vortex creates more drag, more drag equals less speed. The keel acts the same way, it creates a vortex at the bottom of the keel, by adding the (horizontal) winglet, it prevents the water from rolling off the bottom of the keel and creating the vortex type flow with the water (I think that is called fluid dynamics, but I am not sure). Again fantastic video, and great choice in adding the winglet.
For someone who has sone a lot of miles in both, dagger boards on a performance cat allow up to 8 degrees better windward performance, reduced drag off the wind, increased control and stability at speed and greater safety in storm conditions. So, your boat, your choice, but those shallow hard to access spots, no longer on your menu.
Happy Anniversary guys. Fun fact, in Auckland harbor there is an Americas Cup monohull that was the one which won, it's now a monument, the secret sauce was the use of a winglet. Next time you are there you can go and have a look at it on display there.
"Kiwi Magic" lost, actually. USA's Catamaran, with daggerboards, easily defeated the behemoth Kiwi boat. :) Meanwhile, it was the Aussies that introduced a wing keel to the 1983 Cup that proved victorious over the Americans. Thanks to Morrelli & Melvin, it's great to see Cup technology trickling down to cruising boats though.
@@pauldegan8324 Maybe? I think this is a budget question, and at the moment I don't have the budget! But I am also from a racing background and I enjoy eking out every 0.1 knots from a boat. So yes, if I had the cash, why not!? :)
For my 2cents, You guys are cruisers, as you mentioned, and if you find yourself solo in the middle of the night and a blow pops up, the dagger boards are one more thing to possibly get wrong/forget to adjust. Fixed was definitely the right choice.
Happy Anniversary!! Interesting video with winglets and dagger boards. It’s amazing how far you have come in the sailing world, congratulations. Like they say the more information you can gather on a subject the better decisions can be made. Enjoy your time in Thailand and see you in two weeks.
Live aboard a Gemini sailing cat. Has retractable center boards and retractable rudders. This arrangement allows the boat to be set on sand and dried out if necessary. Have never done this intentionally, but a couple of times accidentally. Being a shallow draft boat I regularly take it into skinny water (because I can) mostly to find anchorage space where others can't go. Consequently occasionally bump into things sticking up from the bottom. Luckily, never anything as solid as a large rock, and never while under sail (harder to stop). Each encounter resulted in a little noise and the board or rudder just pushing up out of the way. Never any permanent damage only scratched paint. I am a cruiser. The Gemini is NOT a racer, so it fits me perfectly. Just my two cents😊
Something interesting I learned recently. The area where the Winglet connect to the keel produces quite a bit of drag. The drag is caused by the tight angle. If the put a radius in where the angle is this reduces drag. This was figured out on airplane wings and it was about a 10% gain in speed and a 10% gain in fuel economy. I don't know if this is the same for keels but the drag will still be true. You should ask. Now the down side. There's always a trade off😊 you lose a little bit of wing area with the radius.
I often wonder what the effect would be if the entire keel is curved in, or for complexity's sake, angled in, similar to how straight dagger boards will be angled in. Seems like you can get a little more surface area to bite with minimal draft penalty.
I think the first time you guys in the USA saw a winged keel was in 1983 when we took the cup off you. it was the first day in my life that I had a beer first thing in the morning, so proud to be an Aussie that day.
Sorry guys, but I can think of two downsides to winglets on your mini-keels: -More wetted surface area means more profile drag -Higher likelihood of snagging seaweed and crab pots
Wise decisions based on research, and knowledge that suits your cruising style and life. Best regards sent. Enjoy life, congratulations on your anniversary.
Good to get on camera a competent naval architect👍. When a client says "I want this one thing", the architect has 40 things that are impacted by just that one thing you want and... a list of engineers to manage that change.
Sunday Morning Coffee with the "Wynn's", nothing better than this! What a learning curve on keels, dagger boards, efficiency, etc. It is so interesting to learn how much sailing has turned in the last 15 years. The only thing is when your guest Erik was discussing the wing tips of an aircraft that was a really silly remark, they are not just for aircraft to fit together. They serve a far more important Purpose. They improve the efficiency of the Aircraft! Just like your illustration at Min 6:12 said. This aspect has been in use in Aviation for at least 50 years. When I worked at Cessna Experimental Twin Division we were just incorporating it into the Citation 500 Jet and their brand new Designed twins Piston Aircraft. Glad you cleared that up. Happy Anniversary Jason & Nikki! Wow! Cannot wait to hear and learn about Thailand!
I had a small 18 foot Buccaneer that I restored . The center board was fiberglass and broke off do to adding more sail area. I tried a wood CB with lead inserted 8 lbs circle glassed over it. I raced this little beast, but that also snapped in half. Then tried a full 1/2 inch Aluminum tapered shape 3 ft long. That worked but sailing in 15 to 25 knot wind it would shudder vibrate on a beam reach. Hiking out would clear that and you could feel counter force. Fast fun and my boys loved learning on that little beast. If you never sailed try a smaller daysail you may get hooked..
I got hooked sailing on an old 20’ Buccaneer with a long lead keel. Only 24” draft. And actually the rudder was a few inches longer. It would bump/drag first. Fortunately, with my inexperience I was sailing over either sand or mud on the west coast of Florida. Also, a plus to inexperience, so much weight below, if it heeled over too far it wouldn’t flip over before just turning into the wind and stopping. Had a blast learning on it.
Maintenance would be my number one concern as a cruiser. I’m not gonna necessarily be in someplace where I can readily get the complicated pieces for intricate parts of the boat. I certainly wouldn’t want to be sailing around the Caribbean and hit a reef and then I have to call up the company in China to say hey, please make me a new dagger board and ship it to me halfway around the world. With the mini keel its lift, the boat do a little fiberglass work and you’re back in the water and if it’s the winglet, you may not even care so you could wait till you can get someplace to get it fixed proper. So I agree with you I think you made the best choice and I especially like that the winglet gives you the better performance without giving up draft.
Thanks for covering this topic!! You made the perfect choice. You may or may not want to go faster (though I think you’ll go plenty fast), but I’ve never heard anyone wonder about whether they’d like to point better or more poorly. No one says, “ya know, for $5K, I just really would rather have worse VMG for all those years of sailing”. Very excited for you both!
You guys made the right decision going with the mini keels with winglets vs dagger boards based on all of the facts and how you use your boat I wouldn’t listen to the naysayers!
Eric,,is one of the nicest guys. I’m just saying I didn’t notice him saying wetted surface area great info!I looked at a few HH boats and met Gino and the crew in Charleston. Love what they are doing. They would not install a v-drive transmission for me so I went with a Balance 526,also I didn’t like the import tax into US. Enjoy your custom boat, great decision. 35 yrs ago I didn’t like fin keel boats I only liked full keels,,,and I was anti Catamaran for many years people change ,I did. What seems important to you now will change. Just reef early. I wish you the best of weather in crossings to come.
Those mini keels eliminate a maintenance item from the list(daggarboard systems ), which is always advantageous on a sailboat because there's always something to check .
Daggerboards so much better....just bought a 60 foot cat with daggerboards....prior sailed a bunch on fixed keels....the difference is astronomical....even for cruisers ...my opinion based on actually sailing both...
That was really interesting...loved Erik's perspective. And for me personally, it was cool to see them using some fluid dynamics software I worked on a few years ago!
Based on your cruising requirements - I think you made a good decision. When I hear people rambling on about performance; I never really hear them talk much about WEAR AND TEAR. The harder you run most equipment, the more stress and wear you apply.
I’m just a full-time RVer here in a motorhome, but this process has been very interesting to watch. And there is a lot of correlation between boats and airplanes, which I am more familiar with. Thanks for the video.
Happy Anniversary guys, I hope your keel doesn't prohibit you from the more shallow areas of anchorages too much, where a removeable daggerboard would give you more clearance in those situations! Love your presentation and best of luck. Stay Safe & Fair Winds!!
Nikki is right! I wanted to hear about the winglet at that point! Thanks, Nikki! Now that you have made your decision away from the dagger boards do you gain interior space where the dagger boards would have been? I know that wasn't a priority in the decision making process, but is there a cool bonus? Happy anniversary!!!
Thanks for another great video! Pilot here and just a quick comment on the comparison with aircraft winglets. Winglets are not added due to wingspan and space issues at the gate. Winglets are fitted for one reason only - to reduce induced drag which comes as a result of the lift generated by the wing. Basically air escaping around the wingtips from higher pressure below than above wing.
Happy anniversary the original winged keel was designed by an Australian for the Americans cup in the 80s sometime back well thanks for another amazing vlog and a big gday mate from Australia 🇦🇺 and cheers 🥂
You made the correct decision, I have a monohull but with a wing keel 4 foot draft, the keel performs better than most fin keels, but let’s me get into places, that other boats cannot get into. Under speed it really improves the handling greatly, only downside is lobster pots. Never had a problem fishing catching lines.
Well done guys! You`ll love Thailand, or not. The people are beautiful, not so much in main tourist destinations and it can be a tad salacious at times ! You being you, I`m sure you`ll get out and about and see the real Thailand, sah wah dee khrap! 😎
Wish you all the best with your new boat which seems to be shaping up quite nicely. 2:25 There is one language this type of guy understands, and it is not kindness unfortunately. (No, I'm kidding of course.)
Going upwind the longest boat wins not necessarily the boat with daggerboards. You made the right choice in my opinion. For a couple to sail a boat where ease of use is a very important thing, especially during nights when your doing turns, you don’t wanna be adjustments with daggerboards on top off all the other lines etc. As for phuket obviously go see the big Buddha on the mountain. On the road there to there’s elephant rides through the jungle and 4x4 scooters for rent. There’s a sea aquarium in the south of Phuket and lots of places for shopping and dining out Al around the island. Pataya is a popular nightlife area many consider a must see… have fun!!
I agree with your decision . I don’t much about sailing but I feel you made the right decision. Sailing to me is not about speed but comfort and enjoyment and enjoying your time on the water. Why is everyone in a hurry. A few minutes doesn’t matter. Freeway mentality. I really watching you guys.
What I enjoyed most about Phuket were the Elephants on the island. Don’t know how many remained/survived the tsunami of 2005. What you will find is infrastructure that is very new and modern as it was all replaced. The water is wonderful and the hotels have a swimming pool between it and the beach. The food is wonderful! The Bats flying around at night were fun to watch as they went about clearing the sky of mosquitoes and other winged insects. IMHO, Phuket is the best part of Thailand. Congratulations on your wedding anniversary.🎉❤
I'm thinking winglets are not offered by most catamaran manufacturers due to lack of demand from consumers. In any product a good feature may not be commonly offered simply because nobody is asking for it, because they don't know the benefits. Then one or a few manufacturers start offering that feature to differentiate their product (like HH is doing here), and over time the benefits become more widely known. Then consumers start asking other manufacturers about the feature and eventually some will start offering it.
I have a winged keel on my monohull, which helps keep the draft under 4ft. It’s great for the lake sailing we do. I have hit a rock on the tip of the winglet. We had just pulled up anchor and slowly motored out of the cove (which was 8ft deep). The depth gauge flashed 3ft and then back to 8ft. In a matter of a second my brain was like, “wtf was that”. Then the boat stopped almost dead in its tracks. Luckily everyone was seated, including my wife that was on the bow cleaning the anchor locker up. Even on a 30yr old cruiser those wings are strong! Really no damage when hauled out. Just a small, sharp, wedge shape gash about 3/4” across. Unbelievable that the wing took a 4ton hit on such a small area to bring the boat to a stop.
I love how you two see something, discuss and research it before you make a decision as to whether or not it will benefit you in the long term. You will have an amazing home to take you anywhere, once you have finished building it.
Great video - super educational! Have you heard about the orcas attacking cruisers off Spain? They've sunk 3 and damaged a lot of other yachts. The pods are teaching other pods and now in North Atlantic off Scotland a cruiser vessel was attacked. The thinking is that a vessel likely drowned or killed an orca and they've found a way to hurt the vessels.
The islands in Phang Nga bay are beautiful, just don't go ashore on the nature preserve islands, e.g. "Monkey Island" . But otherwise, you could canoe through mangrove swamps, visit Kho Pingkan, Kho Phi Phi Don/Phi Phi Lei, there's spectacular reef diving there and in the Andaman sea. Cape Panwa and Chalong bay are absolutely beautiful, and the Giant Buddha is new since I was there but the views are spectacular. And stay clear of Patong - it's the one part that is super-touristy and a bit grubby.
Cape Panwa is lovely guys, great ice cream / cakes at the Cafe Kantary and the Aquarium is lovely for $2 ! get there about 5pm and enjoy the great street food, there are no discos and girly bars there as it's a Muslim area and utterly delightful, stay well / travel safe xx
Smiling! Happy Anniversary! Wife and I have an anniversary the 19th of July, suspect it's a few more years. 54 Always enjoy your videos. Watching you guys getting your dream boat, nice.
Guys, you made absolutely the right choice. Research by the Wolfson unit at Southampton University UK quantified the advantage of daggerboards at about 2 degrees when hard on the wind in a like for like boat. I doubt you will ever be in an upwind tacking war where 2 degrees will be vital. The Wolfson study also found that fixed keels are just as efficient on a broad reach. The big advantage of fixed keels is being able to beach the boat. I have a 12m Dazcat with fixed keels that look exactly like yours and i have never been disappointed with upwind performance. I have beached the boat dozens of times with no trouble. In my view daggerboards are for true racing boats not cruisers. Most Dazcats are cruiser racing boats hence have daggerboards. As a comparison a 1295 Dazcat is 5.5 tonne lightship whereas I think your HH is 9 tonne lightship. Weight slows you down!
I believe Dazcats have the ultimate solution... Daggers for performance and a wedge from the dagger to the rear protecting the shaft and rudder and allowing beaching Fixed keels are not as efficient as boards on a broad reach as most of the dagger is raised making much less surface area. Your boat is a great combo... I like them... but prefer daggers
Erik was good at explaining various aspects of appendages. Your own explanation discussing your decision making was very informative and made the issue much clearer. I have a boat with asymmetic foils and lifting rudders, I like the light weight and the ability to go into much shallower water. B M
I maybe repeating myself, however, Happy Anniversary! Bangkok street food is awesome as is the beach food scene in the evenings. The Eastern & Oriental Express is the most luxurious train travel in Asia. I cannot remember the city but it’s uniqueness is a train that runs a few feet from the front doors of the houses on either side, very bizarre. So step out of the house at the wrong moment and yes you will be hit by a train. I have pictures somewhere otherwise it’s a “believe it or not” situation. Thailand is beautiful and Singapore is an absolute must tour, take the train! Have a great time u2…
I have asymmetric leeboards on my cat, its a pain when short tacking so we leave them both down, there are designers who use winglets on asymmetric hulls but you would have to build it yourselves. Theres a bit more drag with LAR keels downwind but even over 24 hours running a ¼ of a knot less is only 6 miles. As live aboard cruisers I think you made the right decision
My opinion, for what it's worth ......I have a racing and cruising background.........I strongly disagree with the wing keel decision .... here's why... I agree 100% on no curved boards but....Straight center boards I think are similar price (let me know) and will give you many advantages and are super simple. Other than the obvious sailing performance advantage, the biggest is draught @ 3ft only as opposed to 5ft on the keels. This puts you back into mono territory. They will be a lot harder to keep growth off. Many cruisers would say they don't go upwind instead they wait for a weather window and sail downwind but these keels are very "draggy" reaching and running and are more of a trip hazard as well. Why drag these around 100% of the time, motoring included, when you can lift up a board..? Straight boards are easy to fix or replace if damaged while in the water and the boat is fine to sail on one. The wings will give you very little difference from the standard fixed keels... you will never actually notice the difference... and for the small advantage of end plate / buoyancy, there is a surface area / weight penalty. HH base everything around performance and I believe they have offered Mini keels as some buyers are very inexperienced and are likely to hit a reef at some point but you two are not and deserve efficiency....I'm pretty sure the MM designer would choose the boards as well...... I would also rather have boards if caught out in a gale for many reasons but that can be argued.... This reminds me a bit of the Parasailor spinnaker debate... they are 30% more expensive for less performance..... great marketing..... I love your boat choice and keep up the videos..... ditch the keels...IMHO
Lots of solid discussion RE: dagger board for fixed keel with wings; so, I'm going to add my 2 cents worth. If it a choice between raising or lowering the dagger boards or putting down my beer to do so, I'm going with the fixed keels.
I think you made the best choice for what you are going to do with the boat. I had this discussion with people on a boat in SF Bay yesterday. No boat is perfect for everyone. As you said neither is a car. I say Great call.
Happy Anniversary!!! Our Anniversary is July 4th. Not sure what date yours is but, close enough! Love your videos and will always be a huge fan! May you live happily ever after!
For every choice you make in life you will find those who are like minded and others who’s beliefs and opinions are polar opposites… At the end of the day this boat will be your home and your opinion is the only one that matters!! I love that you try to explain your choices so that your viewers can understand, but it’s your boat/home. So please do you and don’t stress over the opinions of others even if those opposing opinions are very vocal!! Love you guys and always excited to watch the next video! ❤😊♥️
Happy Anniversary! I learned a lot from this video. As a non-sailor, I just assumed that catamaran == daggerboards needed. Really appreciated the interview/conversation with Eric, and the explanations by all of you.
important info dagger boards will give you more performance options but the require more adjustments (work) cool video!!! i would choose the dagger boards you will pull them up going down wind (less drag) and most of the time you will sail down wind!! two great choices good luck i enjoy sailing and your videos!!
First of all, next Sunday for ME will not be a great day!.... Sad face.... BUT, I know it's NOT all about me so you two ENJOY your time off and thank you for letting us know that you're going to take a week off. Now some of us won't worry about you. HAPPY ANNAVERSARY!!! What "if" there was a combination of the two, "Dagger Boards" and "Winglets" .... Like, in shallow waters, you can raise your winglets hydraulically and the water sees nothing and you can now go into the shallower waters. The same as, when you're underway, deploy the winglets and away you go. The down side of this is more moving parts. It's like the difference between having an RV WITH slid-outs and having an RV WITHOUT slid-outs. Slid-outs will traditionally fail first, that's been "MY" experience anyways. OH!!..... One more thing..... Nikki is SUCH a DARLING!!!!!!! --> 0:03 🙂
I mean from my experience with dinghies having centreboards gives you the ability to go upwind when you want to and not to have draft when you want to and reduce draft when you want to (also I know people who slowly feel their way into sandy/muddy anchorages with their boards - knowing they can pull them up when they ground. So I would have gone with centreboards (if I had the money) but it's your money and your choice so go with what you want the suceptibility to damage would be the thing that really would concern me.
Perfect you heard from a Professional and not someone who does not sail, it's like you chose the Lucid instead of a tesla experience reason that is exactly what i did, and I don't regret it, you buy what you want for your buck. Happy Anniversary you guys, have a wonderful time, 👍
Having no knowledge at all about this subject before watching your videos (which have been IMMENSELY informative and interesting; I really enjoy the instructional aspect of your channel) I remember your original motivation to go performance and I think that your moderation of that with the mini keels over dagger boards seems a well considered choice.
You've chosen well!!! So much info shared here!! I love this learning experience, knowledge not shared any where else!!!! I can't wait to see your next adventure! Sending love Nikki and Jason!!❤❤
I’m just a RUclips sailor, but it seems to me you made the right decision for how you will use it. And future maintenance is always a consideration.
I agree - there will be more resale demand for the way they set up this cat than is now. I think they made the right choices.
I’m just a RUclips future sailor current non-sailor and I support this message. It is always great seeing the thought that goes into future maintenance and taking everything into account.
Exact same. My research is watching all the stuff the Wynns and so many others go through. O'Kellys to Delos to etc etc
nah
Jason is just wanting to save money on going with these so that he can use the saved money to buy a dishwasher LOL
😆😆😂 You figured it out!
Dishwashers have saved a LOT of marriages. We've been married 57 years and started the first year with a dishwasher.😇
I no longer have a dishwasher after 60 years and now live in a hard water area. I have found I have to add bleach once in a while as my white dishes get a grudgy looking film! My neighbor and I feel like our dishes never look really clean, like with a dishwasher. Both of us are contemplating getting a small dishwasher like our neighbor has! Glad I had one once Covid hit!
I dont blame him top loaders are expensive so I hope he finds one to fit the corner where they have chosen to fit one if she lets him have one which I think she has as the blowback from subscribers including me would be massive I am just wondering whether it is a mutual decision to go without daggerboards to me it makes sense to go without them I would do the same if I had a choice as dagger boards are expensive and you have more safety with the wiglets as it protects the rudder as they have said and it makes the boat stronger to boot so it's a win-win.
Shabara mine
Remember when you guys were moving onto a sailboat before you knew how to sail and fast forward today. Now, you are stepping up in performance. Tiny steps lead up to dream goals met. ❤
As an Aussie, we were so impressed when Australia 2 won the America Cup 1983, back in the day.
The big advantage they had was the design of the keel with a bulb and winglets, by Ben Lexcen, which started the tradition of winged keels.
I think you made the right decision on the dagger boards. You don't need any added complexity and failure points in your boat for what you do. I guess if it takes you another day to get somewhere it's a small price to pay for having to sit on the hard for months to fix a dagger board. It goes along with the KISS principle which in most things in life is a very good rule of thumb. Keep the good stuff coming guys and happy anniversary.
More engine time ,so kinda defeats the purpose of a sailboat.Bad idea really😮
Dagger boards are hardly complex.
That doesn't really make much sense. Avoiding dagger boards does avoid some complexity but not much and pretty much anything which will break a daggerboard will also either break or heavily damage a standard keel.
Additionally, while HH boats while extremely impressive from an engineering standpoint they are definitely not KISS. They're more or less comfortable raceboats. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that as a boat, but as a cruiser they're terrible. Everything is hyper-digitalised, made out of carbon-fibre (which while an amazing material takes damage extremely poorly) and there is very little in terms of back ups. A lightning strike and/or collision with a container, whale or uncharted ground will make the boat extremely dangerous and will very possibly sink it.
All these problems are present to some extent in all modern cat manufacturers and the way keels are built for almost all modern monohulls makes them extremely dangerous for cross-ocean sailing too (kraken is, to the best of my knowledge, the only manufacturer making boats with an integral keel). However, HH is a particularly bad offender, they build some of the least durable and worst suited boats for cursing and market them for that exact purpose.
Dagger boards are simple to fix with no need to haul out... Keels are way more ongoing maintenance and when damaged can be more expensive due to haulout costs
The winged keel, if my memory serves me correctly, was introduced to the sailing world in the American's Cup race in 1983 onboard the Australia II 12m boat. The keel was designed and tested in secret by Ben Lexcen in the Netherlands. Great Aussie/Dutch innovation!
For his 1983 challenge, Ben Lexcen revolutionised sailing yacht design with the creation of the winged keel. Described as 'upside down', the keel lowered drag, made the boat more stable and manoeuvrable, particularly in tacking.
Cheers guys live your videos,Tony Brisbane Australia 🇦🇺
Happy Anniversary! I think you guys made the right decision with the winglets. So stoked to see you guys out on the water with that beast of a boat! Cheers!
If you sail around the world with the trade winds, a dagger board would be in the up position most of the time and give no advantage. I think you made the right decision. I'm looking forward to a race against Parlay Revival. When winglets were introduced into the Americas Cup by Australia, it was a way to outwit the 12 meter rule. When the boat healed over, the winglets gave the boat a deeper draft than the boats without winglets, creating an advantage upwind. It was a brilliant move by the Aussies.
You're right that cruisers will have the daggerboards being in the up position most of the time. However, that doesn't mean they won't be providing an advantage. A dagger board in the up position produces almost no drag as opposed to a minikeel which, even with the best designs, will still produce quite a lot of drag. As for the winglets, to the best of my knowledge you are right about them being designed for and introduced on Australia II, however, the advantage doesn't have anything to do with outwitting rules or any particular length, it's simply a more efficient design for high speeds.
From your transition from RV to Cat Sailing to now designing a high performance Cat, meeting top designers and boat builders... You have become such experts. You can swim with the big fish now. 🐠. The science of boat speed is so mind boggling (engineering & physics). Love how they take the extreme strides and sneak them into a. Cruiser for improvements. So many decisions🥴 can't wait when you take off on the water. Blessings!
The main considerations for me were speed and safety, Dagger boards are safer when the shit hits the fan for real, pull them right up and have nothing to trip over, can not do that with mini keels. Large beam as well. I don't have an escape hatch.
Another wonderful feature of winglets is that they act like a shovel. So when the boat does run aground it digs in and anchors you to that spot so you don’t have to worry about going anywhere while you wait for a tow boat service to arrive and give them all your money!
She's going to be a terrific boat. I'm surprised you were talking about your concern on light wind. From earlier videos, to my understanding this boat's going to do just fine compared to earlier boats.
I agree, you made the correct choice here. The other issue with dagger boards not mentioned is that because they have to make them so strong to withstand those forces constantly that when you do hit something with one, you can end up with a hull breach because the dagger board case cracks which is an even more scary situation. I have a catamaran with dagger boards, and another with mini keels, you can guess which one I use for cruising!
I look at this way... If you get dagger boards you have to know how to use them, and to be honest it adds complexity to every movement you make. I agree the winglets would be my decision as well. I would rather just know my draft is X and cruise into an anchorage and chill....
It’s the Wynns again this Sunday morning! Getting closer and closer to the final details done for this lovely boat! 👍😊🌸
Coating a dagger board with bottom paint while on the hard can be quite the procedure when they are 12 feet long or longer! Also, one would have to worry about barnacles and such jamming them in the trunks.
A super interesting video this week and a really great interview with someone who actually isn't in sales and knows their stuff - looking forward to seeing Jason going upwind with his hair on fire or maybe a Katniss Everdeen moment for Nikki 🤣. I really would like to know if the winglets are providing lift why are they symmetrical or do they not behave in a fluid like in air so angle of attack is more important? The other question and you sort of answered it is would simply putting on one electric motor make the real advantage of daggerboards in light wind irrelevant - you can effectively increase apparent wind with a bit more air speed so sail higher anyway and a small amount of added energy oversomes any drag deficit of the stub keel and improves lift efficiency, also as the motor is off-centre you reduce leeeway by adding a rotation vector to the hulls so improve vmg.
I think the fixed keel is absolutely the best way to go. Don’t give yourself the maintenance and management burden.
Jason and Nikki, thanks for digging into the technical in a way that few other content producers do. You've kept the topic narrow, invited expert opinion, kept to to the idea that it is all personal preference and then added a nice dose of local color. The average viewer does not have the time or resources to go pick apart each of these topics to this extent. At the end of the day, despite all of the eco this's and thats, you've still got one of the most impressive pieces of plastic in the ocean, and you're not sanctimonious about it.
I'm living vicariously through you guys! I can't wait til we're sailing again! 😂😂😂
Excellente vido. I designed and built a 18' cat after high school (modeled after a photo of a 20' Tornado cat). I used my parents garage stud spacing for the hull bulkheads. Sailed it in Marina Del Rey and Mission Bay San Diego CA. I gained confidence in building anything in the future with this project. I went on to join the Peace Corps in Africa after taking a course in agricultural engineering.
I am here cheering you on knowing you did your homework and you know the use of your home- You got this! see you in a few Happy Anniversary
We had a wing keel on our monohull. At anchor I noticed wonderful breezes coming through from the cockpit and thought - that's not right....we should be bow into the wind. Current and wind cause our anchor line to wrap around the wing keel. LOL. Another time in the Bahamas we ran aground in a remote area 3' from depth.....we sat firmly on our wing keel all night while the water drained out below our seacocks - never tipped and then as soon as we felt water lapping the hull we kedged and motored over to the depth. LOL! Fabulous lifestyle!
winglets are in general a much greater obstruction hazard when you get obstructed., you wont be slipping out of the mud or sand, you may not be sliding over fishing gear, you wont be bouncing of of bommies or seawalls in the same way. you're much more likely have a more serious impact, if.....if.. the winglets get involved. It's not like the wings run the full length of the keel. so maybe youll never notice. BUT, WINGLETS ARE THE POLAR OPPOSITE OF A SWING KEEL. i would guess it would be a decision between niche case of wanting to beach her occasianally, vs wanting the performance all of the time
I think you made the right decision. And the smart decision. But I know I would have gone for the daggerboards, probably the curved ones if they were available. I just could not help myself.
Wife and I had the same discussion you two had as we have a HH50 OC being built. I can see her in your videos as it is two over from where yours sit. It might have been the one you filmed the actual keel-winglet on within this video. We came to the conclusion as you two as we are cruisers and the cost difference was also a factor.
What is the difference in cost of the mini keel / wing and the straight dagger boards...?
@@pauldegan8324 They do not price it out individually...you either get the cruising version or the sport version. Sport version is full carbon hull, carbon mast & boom and carbon dagger boards. The cost of the upgrade package (sport version) from the cruising version is ballpark $350k-$400k USD. That is the figure HH has stated in the various boatshows. I'm not sure the price difference for the H44 that the Wynn's are getting as I can only speak to the HH50. But if I was guessing.... $300k USD
Great video, I was impressed that I actually understood 90% of what Eric was talking about especially the comparison of the winglet on the keel to the winglet on an aircraft. On an aircraft wing there is what's known as wing tip vortex (a swirling motion in the air as it travels off the end of the wing or wing tip), wing tip vortex creates more drag, more drag equals less speed. The keel acts the same way, it creates a vortex at the bottom of the keel, by adding the (horizontal) winglet, it prevents the water from rolling off the bottom of the keel and creating the vortex type flow with the water (I think that is called fluid dynamics, but I am not sure). Again fantastic video, and great choice in adding the winglet.
For someone who has sone a lot of miles in both, dagger boards on a performance cat allow up to 8 degrees better windward performance, reduced drag off the wind, increased control and stability at speed and greater safety in storm conditions. So, your boat, your choice, but those shallow hard to access spots, no longer on your menu.
correct
Happy Anniversary guys.
Fun fact, in Auckland harbor there is an Americas Cup monohull that was the one which won, it's now a monument, the secret sauce was the use of a winglet. Next time you are there you can go and have a look at it on display there.
"Kiwi Magic" lost, actually. USA's Catamaran, with daggerboards, easily defeated the behemoth Kiwi boat. :) Meanwhile, it was the Aussies that introduced a wing keel to the 1983 Cup that proved victorious over the Americans. Thanks to Morrelli & Melvin, it's great to see Cup technology trickling down to cruising boats though.
@@TheSailingFamily out of curiosity, i assume you would choose the dagger board option....?
@@pauldegan8324 Maybe? I think this is a budget question, and at the moment I don't have the budget! But I am also from a racing background and I enjoy eking out every 0.1 knots from a boat. So yes, if I had the cash, why not!? :)
For my 2cents, You guys are cruisers, as you mentioned, and if you find yourself solo in the middle of the night and a blow pops up, the dagger boards are one more thing to possibly get wrong/forget to adjust. Fixed was definitely the right choice.
Happy Anniversary!! Interesting video with winglets and dagger boards. It’s amazing how far you have come in the sailing world, congratulations. Like they say the more information you can gather on a subject the better decisions can be made. Enjoy your time in Thailand and see you in two weeks.
Live aboard a Gemini sailing cat. Has retractable center boards and retractable rudders. This arrangement allows the boat to be set on sand and dried out if necessary. Have never done this intentionally, but a couple of times accidentally. Being a shallow draft boat I regularly take it into skinny water (because I can) mostly to find anchorage space where others can't go. Consequently occasionally bump into things sticking up from the bottom. Luckily, never anything as solid as a large rock, and never while under sail (harder to stop). Each encounter resulted in a little noise and the board or rudder just pushing up out of the way. Never any permanent damage only scratched paint. I am a cruiser. The Gemini is NOT a racer, so it fits me perfectly.
Just my two cents😊
Something interesting I learned recently. The area where the Winglet connect to the keel produces quite a bit of drag. The drag is caused by the tight angle. If the put a radius in where the angle is this reduces drag. This was figured out on airplane wings and it was about a 10% gain in speed and a 10% gain in fuel economy. I don't know if this is the same for keels but the drag will still be true. You should ask. Now the down side. There's always a trade off😊 you lose a little bit of wing area with the radius.
Water is more dense than air.
I often wonder what the effect would be if the entire keel is curved in, or for complexity's sake, angled in, similar to how straight dagger boards will be angled in. Seems like you can get a little more surface area to bite with minimal draft penalty.
I think the first time you guys in the USA saw a winged keel was in 1983 when we took the cup off you. it was the first day in my life that I had a beer first thing in the morning, so proud to be an Aussie that day.
Sorry guys, but I can think of two downsides to winglets on your mini-keels:
-More wetted surface area means more profile drag
-Higher likelihood of snagging seaweed and crab pots
Wise decisions based on research, and knowledge that suits your cruising style and life. Best regards sent. Enjoy life, congratulations on your anniversary.
Good to get on camera a competent naval architect👍. When a client says "I want this one thing", the architect has 40 things that are impacted by just that one thing you want and... a list of engineers to manage that change.
Sunday Morning Coffee with the "Wynn's", nothing better than this! What a learning curve on keels, dagger boards, efficiency, etc. It is so interesting to learn how much sailing has turned in the last 15 years. The only thing is when your guest Erik was discussing the wing tips of an aircraft that was a really silly remark, they are not just for aircraft to fit together. They serve a far more important Purpose. They improve the efficiency of the Aircraft! Just like your illustration at Min 6:12 said. This aspect has been in use in Aviation for at least 50 years. When I worked at Cessna Experimental Twin Division we were just incorporating it into the Citation 500 Jet and their brand new Designed twins Piston Aircraft. Glad you cleared that up. Happy Anniversary Jason & Nikki! Wow! Cannot wait to hear and learn about Thailand!
I had a small 18 foot Buccaneer that I restored . The center board was fiberglass and broke off do to adding more sail area. I tried a wood CB with lead inserted 8 lbs circle glassed over it. I raced this little beast, but that also snapped in half. Then tried a full 1/2 inch Aluminum tapered shape 3 ft long. That worked but sailing in 15 to 25 knot wind it would shudder vibrate on a beam reach. Hiking out would clear that and you could feel counter force. Fast fun and my boys loved learning on that little beast. If you never sailed try a smaller daysail you may get hooked..
I got hooked sailing on an old 20’ Buccaneer with a long lead keel. Only 24” draft. And actually the rudder was a few inches longer. It would bump/drag first. Fortunately, with my inexperience I was sailing over either sand or mud on the west coast of Florida. Also, a plus to inexperience, so much weight below, if it heeled over too far it wouldn’t flip over before just turning into the wind and stopping. Had a blast learning on it.
Maintenance would be my number one concern as a cruiser. I’m not gonna necessarily be in someplace where I can readily get the complicated pieces for intricate parts of the boat. I certainly wouldn’t want to be sailing around the Caribbean and hit a reef and then I have to call up the company in China to say hey, please make me a new dagger board and ship it to me halfway around the world. With the mini keel its lift, the boat do a little fiberglass work and you’re back in the water and if it’s the winglet, you may not even care so you could wait till you can get someplace to get it fixed proper. So I agree with you I think you made the best choice and I especially like that the winglet gives you the better performance without giving up draft.
Thanks for covering this topic!! You made the perfect choice. You may or may not want to go faster (though I think you’ll go plenty fast), but I’ve never heard anyone wonder about whether they’d like to point better or more poorly. No one says, “ya know, for $5K, I just really would rather have worse VMG for all those years of sailing”. Very excited for you both!
You guys made the right decision going with the mini keels with winglets vs dagger boards based on all of the facts and how you use your boat I wouldn’t listen to the naysayers!
Eric,,is one of the nicest guys. I’m just saying I didn’t notice him saying wetted surface area great info!I looked at a few HH boats and met Gino and the crew in Charleston. Love what they are doing. They would not install a v-drive transmission for me so I went with a Balance 526,also I didn’t like the import tax into US. Enjoy your custom boat, great decision. 35 yrs ago I didn’t like fin keel boats I only liked full keels,,,and I was anti Catamaran for many years people change ,I did. What seems important to you now will change. Just reef early. I wish you the best of weather in crossings to come.
Those mini keels eliminate a maintenance item from the list(daggarboard systems ), which is always advantageous on a sailboat because there's always something to check .
Your boat, your decision. Thanks for sharing. 😊
So glad you got wings! Awesome explanation of your decision process! As always, stay safe out there!
Daggerboards so much better....just bought a 60 foot cat with daggerboards....prior sailed a bunch on fixed keels....the difference is astronomical....even for cruisers ...my opinion based on actually sailing both...
That was really interesting...loved Erik's perspective. And for me personally, it was cool to see them using some fluid dynamics software I worked on a few years ago!
Australia II won the America's Cup in 83 had the first Winged Keel seeing that keel started my love for sailing.
Based on your cruising requirements - I think you made a good decision.
When I hear people rambling on about performance; I never really hear them talk much about WEAR AND TEAR.
The harder you run most equipment, the more stress and wear you apply.
Happy Anniversary! Enjoy your week and cant wait to see your upcoming trip!
I’m just a full-time RVer here in a motorhome, but this process has been very interesting to watch. And there is a lot of correlation between boats and airplanes, which I am more familiar with. Thanks for the video.
You can always go for a massage to get rid of all the stress - Enjoy your wonderful trip and thank you for the great videos
Happy Anniversary! Can’t wait til you guys are back on the water!!! So exciting
Happy Anniversary guys, I hope your keel doesn't prohibit you from the more shallow areas of anchorages too much, where a removeable daggerboard would give you more clearance in those situations! Love your presentation and best of luck. Stay Safe & Fair Winds!!
Nikki is right! I wanted to hear about the winglet at that point! Thanks, Nikki!
Now that you have made your decision away from the dagger boards do you gain interior space where the dagger boards would have been? I know that wasn't a priority in the decision making process, but is there a cool bonus?
Happy anniversary!!!
I love the wings!
Absolutely, comfort and safety go first.
Thanks for another great video! Pilot here and just a quick comment on the comparison with aircraft winglets. Winglets are not added due to wingspan and space issues at the gate. Winglets are fitted for one reason only - to reduce induced drag which comes as a result of the lift generated by the wing. Basically air escaping around the wingtips from higher pressure below than above wing.
Love the videos on the details and systems of the boat. Keep them coming.
Happy anniversary the original winged keel was designed by an Australian for the Americans cup in the 80s sometime back well thanks for another amazing vlog and a big gday mate from Australia 🇦🇺 and cheers 🥂
You made the correct decision, I have a monohull but with a wing keel 4 foot draft, the keel performs better than most fin keels, but let’s me get into places, that other boats cannot get into. Under speed it really improves the handling greatly, only downside is lobster pots. Never had a problem fishing catching lines.
Well done guys! You`ll love Thailand, or not. The people are beautiful, not so much in main tourist destinations and it can be a tad salacious at times ! You being you, I`m sure you`ll get out and about and see the real Thailand, sah wah dee khrap! 😎
Happy Anniversary! Definately go to Koh Tao to go diving. It's so worth the journey!
Totally agree with your choice of mini keels as apposed to dagger boards. Although boards would be great for max knots, too tempting to fly a hull.
Wish you all the best with your new boat which seems to be shaping up quite nicely. 2:25 There is one language this type of guy understands, and it is not kindness unfortunately. (No, I'm kidding of course.)
Going upwind the longest boat wins not necessarily the boat with daggerboards. You made the right choice in my opinion. For a couple to sail a boat where ease of use is a very important thing, especially during nights when your doing turns, you don’t wanna be adjustments with daggerboards on top off all the other lines etc.
As for phuket obviously go see the big Buddha on the mountain. On the road there to there’s elephant rides through the jungle and 4x4 scooters for rent. There’s a sea aquarium in the south of Phuket and lots of places for shopping and dining out Al around the island. Pataya is a popular nightlife area many consider a must see… have fun!!
I agree with your decision . I don’t much about sailing but I feel you made the right decision. Sailing to me is not about speed but comfort and enjoyment and enjoying your time on the water. Why is everyone in a hurry. A few minutes doesn’t matter. Freeway mentality. I really watching you guys.
What I enjoyed most about Phuket were the Elephants on the island. Don’t know how many remained/survived the tsunami of 2005. What you will find is infrastructure that is very new and modern as it was all replaced. The water is wonderful and the hotels have a swimming pool between it and the beach. The food is wonderful! The Bats flying around at night were fun to watch as they went about clearing the sky of mosquitoes and other winged insects. IMHO, Phuket is the best part of Thailand.
Congratulations on your wedding anniversary.🎉❤
I'm thinking winglets are not offered by most catamaran manufacturers due to lack of demand from consumers. In any product a good feature may not be commonly offered simply because nobody is asking for it, because they don't know the benefits. Then one or a few manufacturers start offering that feature to differentiate their product (like HH is doing here), and over time the benefits become more widely known. Then consumers start asking other manufacturers about the feature and eventually some will start offering it.
and there is price, and when you think about winglets or better radar....
you know boat is like bottomless pit when you spend money
@@tihomirrasperic good point.
I have a winged keel on my monohull, which helps keep the draft under 4ft. It’s great for the lake sailing we do. I have hit a rock on the tip of the winglet. We had just pulled up anchor and slowly motored out of the cove (which was 8ft deep). The depth gauge flashed 3ft and then back to 8ft. In a matter of a second my brain was like, “wtf was that”. Then the boat stopped almost dead in its tracks. Luckily everyone was seated, including my wife that was on the bow cleaning the anchor locker up. Even on a 30yr old cruiser those wings are strong! Really no damage when hauled out. Just a small, sharp, wedge shape gash about 3/4” across. Unbelievable that the wing took a 4ton hit on such a small area to bring the boat to a stop.
I love how you two see something, discuss and research it before you make a decision as to whether or not it will benefit you in the long term. You will have an amazing home to take you anywhere, once you have finished building it.
Good choice! Can’t wait to see this boat in the water!
Great explanation of the mini keel. Another good reason for adding that appendage is that "winglet" is a fun word to say.
Great video - super educational! Have you heard about the orcas attacking cruisers off Spain? They've sunk 3 and damaged a lot of other yachts. The pods are teaching other pods and now in North Atlantic off Scotland a cruiser vessel was attacked. The thinking is that a vessel likely drowned or killed an orca and they've found a way to hurt the vessels.
Good choice, and liked the decision process explanation shared.
The islands in Phang Nga bay are beautiful, just don't go ashore on the nature preserve islands, e.g. "Monkey Island" . But otherwise, you could canoe through mangrove swamps, visit Kho Pingkan, Kho Phi Phi Don/Phi Phi Lei, there's spectacular reef diving there and in the Andaman sea. Cape Panwa and Chalong bay are absolutely beautiful, and the Giant Buddha is new since I was there but the views are spectacular. And stay clear of Patong - it's the one part that is super-touristy and a bit grubby.
Cape Panwa is lovely guys, great ice cream / cakes at the Cafe Kantary and the Aquarium is lovely for $2 ! get there about 5pm and enjoy the great street food, there are no discos and girly bars there as it's a Muslim area and utterly delightful, stay well / travel safe xx
Smiling!
Happy Anniversary!
Wife and I have an anniversary the 19th of July, suspect it's a few more years. 54
Always enjoy your videos. Watching you guys getting your dream boat, nice.
Guys, you made absolutely the right choice.
Research by the Wolfson unit at Southampton University UK quantified the advantage of daggerboards at about 2 degrees when hard on the wind in a like for like boat. I doubt you will ever be in an upwind tacking war where 2 degrees will be vital. The Wolfson study also found that fixed keels are just as efficient on a broad reach.
The big advantage of fixed keels is being able to beach the boat. I have a 12m Dazcat with fixed keels that look exactly like yours and i have never been disappointed with upwind performance. I have beached the boat dozens of times with no trouble. In my view daggerboards are for true racing boats not cruisers. Most Dazcats are cruiser racing boats hence have daggerboards. As a comparison a 1295 Dazcat is 5.5 tonne lightship whereas I think your HH is 9 tonne lightship. Weight slows you down!
I believe Dazcats have the ultimate solution... Daggers for performance and a wedge from the dagger to the rear protecting the shaft and rudder and allowing beaching
Fixed keels are not as efficient as boards on a broad reach as most of the dagger is raised making much less surface area.
Your boat is a great combo... I like them... but prefer daggers
Erik was good at explaining various aspects of appendages. Your own explanation discussing your decision making was very informative and made the issue much clearer. I have a boat with asymmetic foils and lifting rudders, I like the light weight and the ability to go into much shallower water. B M
I maybe repeating myself, however, Happy Anniversary! Bangkok street food is awesome as is the beach food scene in the evenings. The Eastern & Oriental Express is the most luxurious train travel in Asia. I cannot remember the city but it’s uniqueness is a train that runs a few feet from the front doors of the houses on either side, very bizarre. So step out of the house at the wrong moment and yes you will be hit by a train. I have pictures somewhere otherwise it’s a “believe it or not” situation. Thailand is beautiful and Singapore is an absolute must tour, take the train! Have a great time u2…
I have asymmetric leeboards on my cat, its a pain when short tacking so we leave them both down, there are designers who use winglets on asymmetric hulls but you would have to build it yourselves. Theres a bit more drag with LAR keels downwind but even over 24 hours running a ¼ of a knot less is only 6 miles. As live aboard cruisers I think you made the right decision
My opinion, for what it's worth ......I have a racing and cruising background.........I strongly disagree with the wing keel decision .... here's why... I agree 100% on no curved boards but....Straight center boards I think are similar price (let me know) and will give you many advantages and are super simple. Other than the obvious sailing performance advantage, the biggest is draught @ 3ft only as opposed to 5ft on the keels. This puts you back into mono territory. They will be a lot harder to keep growth off. Many cruisers would say they don't go upwind instead they wait for a weather window and sail downwind but these keels are very "draggy" reaching and running and are more of a trip hazard as well. Why drag these around 100% of the time, motoring included, when you can lift up a board..? Straight boards are easy to fix or replace if damaged while in the water and the boat is fine to sail on one.
The wings will give you very little difference from the standard fixed keels... you will never actually notice the difference... and for the small advantage of end plate / buoyancy, there is a surface area / weight penalty.
HH base everything around performance and I believe they have offered Mini keels as some buyers are very inexperienced and are likely to hit a reef at some point but you two are not and deserve efficiency....I'm pretty sure the MM designer would choose the boards as well...... I would also rather have boards if caught out in a gale for many reasons but that can be argued....
This reminds me a bit of the Parasailor spinnaker debate... they are 30% more expensive for less performance..... great marketing.....
I love your boat choice and keep up the videos..... ditch the keels...IMHO
Lots of solid discussion RE: dagger board for fixed keel with wings; so, I'm going to add my 2 cents worth. If it a choice between raising or lowering the dagger boards or putting down my beer to do so, I'm going with the fixed keels.
Curiosity is growing and becoming a beautiful lady! Enjoy Thailand, Wynns, have a good one!!
I think you made the best choice for what you are going to do with the boat. I had this discussion with people on a boat in SF Bay yesterday. No boat is perfect for everyone. As you said neither is a car. I say Great call.
Love all this behind-the-scenes info!
All the small details will make it a fantastic boat.
Happy Anniversary!!! Our Anniversary is July 4th. Not sure what date yours is but, close enough! Love your videos and will always be a huge fan! May you live happily ever after!
For every choice you make in life you will find those who are like minded and others who’s beliefs and opinions are polar opposites… At the end of the day this boat will be your home and your opinion is the only one that matters!! I love that you try to explain your choices so that your viewers can understand, but it’s your boat/home. So please do you and don’t stress over the opinions of others even if those opposing opinions are very vocal!! Love you guys and always excited to watch the next video! ❤😊♥️
Happy Anniversary! I learned a lot from this video. As a non-sailor, I just assumed that catamaran == daggerboards needed. Really appreciated the interview/conversation with Eric, and the explanations by all of you.
I have sailed various cats without dagger boards nor keels, and they did upwind pretty well. It largely depends on the shape of the hull.
important info dagger boards will give you more performance options but the require more adjustments (work) cool video!!! i would choose the dagger boards you will pull them up going down wind (less drag) and most of the time you will sail down wind!! two great choices good luck i enjoy sailing and your videos!!
First of all, next Sunday for ME will not be a great day!.... Sad face.... BUT, I know it's NOT all about me so you two ENJOY your time off and thank you for letting us know that you're going to take a week off. Now some of us won't worry about you. HAPPY ANNAVERSARY!!!
What "if" there was a combination of the two, "Dagger Boards" and "Winglets" .... Like, in shallow waters, you can raise your winglets hydraulically and the water sees nothing and you can now go into the shallower waters. The same as, when you're underway, deploy the winglets and away you go. The down side of this is more moving parts. It's like the difference between having an RV WITH slid-outs and having an RV WITHOUT slid-outs. Slid-outs will traditionally fail first, that's been "MY" experience anyways.
OH!!..... One more thing..... Nikki is SUCH a DARLING!!!!!!! --> 0:03 🙂
I mean from my experience with dinghies having centreboards gives you the ability to go upwind when you want to and not to have draft when you want to and reduce draft when you want to (also I know people who slowly feel their way into sandy/muddy anchorages with their boards - knowing they can pull them up when they ground. So I would have gone with centreboards (if I had the money) but it's your money and your choice so go with what you want the suceptibility to damage would be the thing that really would concern me.
Happy Anniversary, Nikki and Jason.
I, for one, love all the innuendos. When you were caulking in New Zealand was the best lol.
Perfect you heard from a Professional and not someone who does not sail, it's like you chose the Lucid instead of a tesla experience reason that is exactly what i did, and I don't regret it, you buy what you want for your buck. Happy Anniversary you guys, have a wonderful time, 👍
Having no knowledge at all about this subject before watching your videos (which have been IMMENSELY informative and interesting; I really enjoy the instructional aspect of your channel) I remember your original motivation to go performance and I think that your moderation of that with the mini keels over dagger boards seems a well considered choice.
You've chosen well!!! So much info shared here!! I love this learning experience, knowledge not shared any where else!!!! I can't wait to see your next adventure! Sending love Nikki and Jason!!❤❤
Congratulations on your aniversary. God bless. May you have many, many more.