Can a 12V LiFePO4 Battery Replace the Lead Acid Battery in a Car?
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- Опубликовано: 14 янв 2022
- Can a 12V LiFePO4 battery replace the lead acid battery in most cars and trucks? I've been asked this question many times on the LiFePO4 review videos that I've published. Here are my thoughts...
WARNING: Lithium batteries are dangerous and can result in fire! This video is NOT intended to be instructional or a "how-to" lesson. I am not a professional. Do not attempt anything you see here without first contacting a certified and/or licensed professional.
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I directly replaced my car battery with a 46AH Lifepo4 battery in June 2018 out of curiosity. It only lasted for 3 years (until July 2021) when I expected it to last for 10 years! It was still able to start my car until the end but what I noticed was the engine stalls while we were on neutral in the middle of traffic. When I replaced my battery with SLA, my car went back to normal.
My Pb battery in my Bmw lasted for 14 years before being too weak to crank the 3l engine, it's still in use (18 years old now) to power a water pump (20Watts) in my garden, it's charged with a PV and a charge controller. Big advantage of this car (and some others) the battery is INSIDE the car and is kind protected from the elements.
Excellent overview of using a LiFePO4 as a starting battery - fets, under bonnet heat, low temperature performance and charging - kudos to your thorough and accurate knowledge and simple, well delivered explanations. Your honesty in outlining the limits of your knowledge is commendable too. There is a reason why I rush to see your videos, this probably has a lot to do with it.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this so clearly. I have always wondered why I cannot use a LiFePo4 battery for my car or boat as a starter battery. The manufacturers always recommend to use it only for a trolling motor of a boat.
Thanks again, I was still planning to try using a LiFePo4 battery as my starter battery. Now I understand what can happen, so I definately won't do it.
there is nothing to stop someone with a bit of brains to modify the charging circuit of the car to charge the lfp battery.
Very good explanation of the differences in LiFePO4 and Lead Acid. I build my own LiFePO4 batteries and do not use a BMS. I use them to power all sorts of things, even to start the outboard motor on my boat. I have specific chargers for LiFePO4, I use QNBBM balancers to keep cells in balance during charging and discharge. I monitor voltage of the batteries during use and storage. I have been following battery technology for five decades. Do not just go putting this that or the other thing batteries into use unless you understand all the factors necessary. Any battery with sufficient energy to start a large engine can also quickly start a large fire.
Wonderful topic I've been wondering the same thing, Thank you! I've personally used the battery tender one on my motorcycle and I had no issues with it for the 2 years I had it. I just bought a lithium starter battery for my lawnmower so I'll see how that goes.
I would really like to see you open and look at the Antigravity lithium car battery. They're very expensive and seem to get a lot of positive feedback. They have some pretty great claims too.
I've used very small LIFEPo4 batteries as the sole automotive battery. Above freezing it's simple. I've put a lot of thought into doing it below freezing, but it adds a lot of complexity. Smart management,insulated battery box with electric heater...and possibly running warm coolant into that box as well....
carry the battery inside the house with you lol. Hook it back up every morning xD
or maybe gank some parts off of a Tesla ?
This is the best explanation I've seen yet as to the many inherent problems in this goal. I wish he would experiment with the addition of super-capacitors to see if the combination works - and, if not, why. Ruining your car's electronics is a REAL issue!!!!
I've been using a LifeP04 8AH battery to start my 54" Zero turn 27HP Lawnmower. I also use a LifePO4 8AH battery to start my 15HP Hydraulic Power Pack. So far I've had no problems. This summer I'll be testing the same 8AH LifePO4 Battery on my Harley. Of course all my uses are only during the warm seasons
Find my longer comment above/below - I don't know what's in your pack but it sounds suspiciously like the 10 or so I have on my vehicles and vessel.
Of course LiFePO4 can be used to start engines, but they are not drop-in replacements for lead-acid for the reasons given. They do offer advantages of size, lifespan and weight but the cost of temperature management and appropriate battery management likely make that use impractical. Anyone who keeps their vehicle or engine in a heated space would have an easier time. I doubt batteries in most cars would overheat in a temperate climate. LiFePO4 cells have very low internal resistance so starting current is not an issue given reasonably large cells or cells in parallel. Starter circuits have their own solenoid switches so the BMS does not need to handle starting current, just charging currents and other loads. Temperature monitoring, load monitoring and voltages give a good enough indication to a BMS to regulate charging.
@@MrRobertPogson Whilst all of that is potentially true, in the real world I have ten (10) cars with LiFePO4 without BMS with active balance while running and low drain when not or isolate to prevent over discharge and readiness for next time. The cars I use weekly or more are just left connected, the ones that sit for longer are disconnected. Reality is an alternator can only do ~100A so if your cells can stomach that then you're good to go. 14.6 is max charge, but you'll get a full charge at much lower voltages, so as long as your alternator is behaving itself inad in the 13.8-14.4 range you're 100% fine. The trouble with BMS use for the charging current and rest of the loads in the car is that the BMS drains the battery itself - there is no solar array here. In my vehicles nothing except the clock and stray leakage current from moisture and ECU memory current drains the battery and even tiny 8AH and 16AH packs are reliable for me in terms of not being drained over short periods. One of those cars I'm going to change to a large capacity LiFePO4 pack just because the trip counters reset to zero on disconnect and I don't use it often but want to track fuel spend vs mileage - so a small isolated pack is not well suited to that car. I've been doing this for over 2 years now and I fully expect these cells to be at my funeral still able to crank over any reasonable engine and some unreasonable big ones aside.
@@fredio54 Don't u need a current limiter to ensure alternator does not get overworked?
Just want to share my experience. To cut story short. Recently caught a hit and run case while parking, therefore decided to build a 125A lifepo4 battery with a BMS can handle 200A discharge to replace my Lead starter battery, so I can run my 3 car cams 24/7 for week without worries.
I am using for two months now, so far very satisfied with the battery performance. Tips and my finding.
1. I add a super capacitor (360F x 6 nos, 16.2V60F) in parallel to the battery with 60A fuse. Reason is to help to jump start the engine (although I know my 200A lifepo4 battery is strong enough to handle the 2.0 Camry starter that will draw around 180A+-), second to buffer the voltage from alternator, also sudden cut-off from BMS ( Do it based on instinct).
2. I also add a TVS diode at the alternator to protect the alternator from the back emf if the battery turn-off by the BMS while running. (Based on research, and hope my research is correct)
3. I set the single cell over voltage at 3.65v and low voltage protection at 3v to prevent frequent on-off of BMS. Nevertheless I set my pack over voltage at 13.9v and turn-on charging voltage at 13v. Reason been the alternator voltage is always fluctuating, so when BMS sense 13.9 volt, the BMS turn-off the charging, the lifepo4 battery will has a voltage reading around 13.3v or 13.4v volt which is around 80% to 90% SOC. When the battery fall below 13v (around 40% SOC) the BMS will turn-on and start charging again. The main reason I doing so is because I want the battery to always fall between 90% or 80% to 40% SOC so I can enjoy max charging cycles of 4000 or more.
4. I stay in Singapore, base on my observation, my Lifepo4 +ve terminal, Battery and BMS temperature is around 50+- degree celsius, the battery will get hotter to around 56 or 57 degree celsius when parking. Therefore I have a build in Thermostat switch (activate at 55 degree celsius) to activate a 12v mini fan to cold the battery down. So far I only experience it turn-on one time while I am parking.
cool i like to do the same God bless sir
Cold the battery down?
When BMS switches off charging, does the battery remain connected to the system to act as capacitor?
maybe a dc-dc charger (renogy or victron) can save alternator and use those BMS with direct negative power.
Thanks !
Recently saw a video from CARPRIME channel where these Japanese enthusiasts used that small Shorai battery to replace their old Panasonic battery in an older car. The benefits seem great, because they were going for lower resistance when it came down to the alternator circuit in the system, resulting in better electrical performance that would have been obvious in the driving of the vehicle. I have to do more research on which exact battery model they utilized, but the results seem promising.
I just built a Lifepo4 12.8v battery pack and use it without a BMS and put an active capacitive balancer to keep the cells balanced. It's installed on my 2005 Ford Ranger with the WL diesel engine. It works just fine and has done so for a couple months. I'm in South East Asia.
Thank you I often wondered about this taught me a few things and probably saved me from a mistake
Thanks for the quick answer to my question. Very much appreciated.
I have a lifepo4 battery in my motorcycle, and it's been a great improvement over lead acid. It feels a little weak when cold, but running the headlight for 30 seconds first seems to warm it up and get it going hard and starts great.
Holy market opportunity. It's utterly *trivial* to design a lifepo4 battery for automotive use. For below-zero (and >14.6V) charging, shunt excess current into a warming circuit. Use a contactor instead of mosfets for disconnect. Monitor the terminal voltage for reengagement.
Outstanding and accurate video as always. :) I'm just amazed how *bad* lifepo4 battery manufacturers are at producing reliable products, generally speaking.
Dakota Lithium has had the DL plus line out since early '23. They specifically designed exactly for this application. You hook them straight up to the alternator like a lead, acid drop in replacement.
Kickass video--great work. Thanks for the information!
I have not tried this, but if you connect a lifepo4 battery in parallel, there is small risk of losing 12v supply and your lead acid battery will last forever because it will basically be in float stage and never discharge even when the starter is used. It would be cool because you could turn the car off and still have a large battery system without the added weight of heavy AGM deep cycle batteries in the trunk!
Thanks for making this video. Very informative and well made.
I'm working on some supercaps in parallel with the SLA battery and a controller to manage them, to increase longevity, I seem to go through a lot batterers in my diesel pickup, since its cranked many times per day.
Very well explained..thanks for clearing a lot of doubts I had about lithium batteries and their limitations.
Fantastic youtube - most intelligent discussion on this topic!! Thank you sir.
I have a car audio habit. Collected 240ah of the headway cells. I Paraleled them last spring to help the 630 farad ultra cap and 2 decent sized agm batteries. They worked great all spring feeding amps making around 8k or 9k watts. They did get warm in the summer so I added ventilation, a push and a pull fan controlled by a thermostat. Worked great all summer and fall. Since winter didn't really start here till about a month ago cold wasn't a worry. I pulled them all out when the forecast deemed it was time. I wish I had used LTO. They simply don't care about utah cold. At first I had active balancers on every pack but tried without and it had little affect. Moving only 2 amps is miniscule compared to the amount of variation they went through when the subs are dancing and they did stay within .25 of eachother since i balanced them thoroughly. I am going to do a capacity test to see if how much the abuse took out of them.
Very very useful information 👏👏👏 thank you brother for your very technical information 👍
Best regards from Philippines 🇵🇭
While it's correct that most LFP batteries on the market today aren't suitable for starting engines, there are plenty of LFP battery options that are perfectly capable of doing so which still have under temp charging protection and good CCA outputs.
I have several vehicles with LFP starting batteries:
1.) A Farmall Super H tractor using an EarthX battery (Which are actually designed and approved to crank aircraft engines where they see very cold temperatures). This battery has been in service since 2018 with no issues and has started the tractor in zero degree weather.
2.) I have a diesel motorhome with a 6.6L diesel engine. I replaced the two lead acid batteries with two Banshee Lithium Starting batteries. These have been in service since 2019 with no issues, and have started the engine in zero degree weather many times.
3.) I have a diesel Jeep Liberty where I replaced the lead acid starting battery with a Banshee Lithium battery. In service since early 2020.
4.) My parents have a diesel motorhome where they replaced the two lead acid starting batteries with two Dakota Lithium engine starting batteries (Just installed this year so no real use on them yet)
5.) The 8kW diesel generator in my motorhome is cranked by two BattleBorn batteries, in service since 2017 and has started the generator in below zero degree weather many times over the years without any issue.
6.) I also have several smaller engine equipment like garden tillers, portable generators. All have been switched to LFP starting batteries because they last longer.
None of the above applications required making any modifications whatsoever aside from swapping the batteries. The notion that LFP can't crank an engine is ludicrous. Any decent LFP battery, especially one designed for engine cranking, will have a BMS that protects against charging in cold weather and no that won't cause a "voltage spike" if the BMS shuts off charging. I don't understand where notion came from. Don't just repeat things you've "heard". If you think there's a voltage spike, prove it. Show us where the spike occurs. These FETs usually have large resistors across them so when they shut off they can still dissipate any "spikes" that might occur from the alternator. And you can absolutely disconnect the battery from a running car and nothing of any significance happens. I have done it many times when testing batteries and alternators.
As long as the battery has a properly designed BMS then an LFP battery will crank a car motor just fine. My diesel powered vehicles need a lot more cranking amps than the average gas car, so if these batteries can crank a diesel motorhome in zero degree weather then I think they'll start your Corolla just fine. I have been using LFP batteries to start engines for several years now and I have not had any issues.
I'm wondering why it is, that none of the prominent YT'ers in this field have examined the batteries now manufactured specifically for this purpose, instead of spouting the usual mantra? For example, I can't find anyone that has torn down & examined Dakota Lithium's dual purpose batteries...
@@DR-xr8so My guess is because they're too danmed expensive to acquire just to tear down for testing.
Regarding the Banshee batts you use in your diesel motorhome, I assume these are Banshee's marine batteries. Because on a number of websites selling Banshee batteries there are no direct automotive (or truck) versions, which I find odd. Also, if you are using the marine batteries, they are *very* costly. I really am a fan of the LiPo batteries, but the prices will need to come 'way down for acceptance by the general public.
@@bobconaway Yes, the marine dual purpose starting/deep cycle batteries. Their Group 34 version costs $600. So I can see why someone might conclude they are pricey if they didn't look any deeper. However that $600 buys you a battery with 50 usable Ah which is supposed to be good for 5,000+ cycles. A high quality AGM Group 34 costs around $300 for roughly 30 Ah usable and only good for roughly 1000 cycles at most. The AGM also must be maintained at 100% state of charge (SoC) at all times when it's not in use to maintain that cycle life, unlike the LFP which is quite happy to sit at any SoC.
Sure they cost roughly 2x a "comparable" AGM battery. But if they last as long as they are projected at 5000 to 7000 cycles: that's at least 5x longer than the AGM: if you price out the cost per cycle, the LFP batteries are substantially cheaper in the long run and offer more usable Ah to boot.
The LFP will give you 5000 cycles at 50 Ah per cycle = 250,000 lifetime Ah
The AGM will give you 1000 cycles at 30 Ah per cycle = 30,000 lifetime Ah
So the LFP will give you roughly 415 lifetime Ah per dollar spent. The AGM will give you roughly 100 lifetime Ah per dollar spent.
So which one is actually cheaper?
It strikes me as odd with these economics in favor of the LFP batteries that the expectation is that their price needs to come down. Why isn't the expectation that people understand the total cost of ownership of something and be educated that a higher upfront cost does not equate to a higher overall ownership cost?
People already pay 2x as much for AGM batteries over standard vented/flooded batteries because they last 2-3x longer and need less maintenance... And I don't see anyone claiming that "AGM prices need to come down for acceptance by the general public"
Also to be clear: These are not LiPo batteries. LiPo uses a different chemistry. LiFePO4 (aka LFP) is different from LiPo. LFP batteries last substantially longer and are not prone to catching fire like LiPo.
@@JeremyAkersInAustin Yes, I'm also referring to LiFePo batteries. I'll not try to pick apart what you've written, but the market that will make LiFePo batteries successful is the regular old auto and light truck market, and no one is truly targeting that 800lb gorilla. Why? I maintain price is one reason (no matter the benefits), and maybe - just maybe - because all of those hundreds of millions of already-installed alternators out there do not play well with LiFePo batteries. The powersports batteries out there don't do any voltage/current regulation, just cell balancing. I suspect a person will not see the potential cycles from them, but they just don't know it yet. Stupendous cycles are great, but the other great benefit is high, even discharge over time before the voltage drop-off. Well, today's cars and trucks don't need that. RVs and some marine applications, sure. But, again, if LiFePo batteries can't sucessfully meets the needs of the existing car and truck battery replacement market, they will not succeed. They will be a niche product, and will not attract the big investors. Therefore the prices will remain high. Vicious cycle.
Thank you so much! I've been looking for a teardown on one of these older battery tender LFP batteries to see about adding a BMS to it. This @ 7:08 is the only one I have found on the internet!
Good video! For everyone asking this question, it's important to understand that there are different types of LiFePo batteries. There are different types of cells and different BMS'. In general, LFP batteries can be used in your car. I think it was Porsche who even started fitting LFP batteries to some of their production cars many years ago. But most of the batteries reviewed here cannot be used for all the mentioned reasons. You need the right cells, there are LFP cells with a charging temperature of down to -20°C and end of charge voltages of 4V, and the right BMS or just no BMS at all. A BMS is usually there to protect the battery from situations which are considered normal workload in a car, so most BMS' will just interfere with the normal operation and might stop you from using your car. So, if you desperately want to do it, get the right parts needed for the job. But, don't forget that your car battery is subject to excessive wear in normal operation and will be consumed over time. Switching from LA to LFP will not change this.
BMW have been installing LFP into last two generations of the M3 (F80, G80) and M4 (F82, G82) amongst other cars. Sometimes go cheap on eBay - I've been tempted to get one and investigate!
Also, a proper Pb-acid battery is MUCH cheaper. (and can be found at any autoparts store.)
@@jfbeam a Pb is 5 times the weight of an lfp and the lfp even though more expensive may last a lot longer than the Pb, slight modification of the charging circuit is all thats needed
Another great video, I love the teardown.
Great video explains a lot to me
I had been considering one of those automotive emergency starter batteries to replace my Home burglar alarm battery because the batteries only last a year or so
but if the BMS in these is not built for constant charge monitoring of the combined cells maybe it could bea too risky A fire risk?
Cheers
I am thinking of adding a 12volt AC to my semi truck, to reduce idle time. I can probably fit 3 300ah batteries in my battery box. Truck will still have 4 lead acid batteries for starting. I already purchased a victron 12-12-30 dc charger as I was just going to use agm batteries, but I'm reconsidering lithium. I was wondering if the lithium could be used to jump start the truck batteries if I ever needed to. Also wondering if there is a battery disconnect switch that would also join the batteries if needed in a jump start. Thanks in advance
Great video, thanks! I think my previous comment was removed, due to adding an external link, sorry! Anyway, I was saying that BMW have installed LFP into some of their cars for a few years now, notably the M3 (F80, G80) and the M4 (F82, G82) amongst others. From photos these are rated at 70Ah and 860CCA. They are mounted in the trunk of the cars, negating problems relating to excessive heat, but what about the other issues? There's a document available online which describes the battery in some detail, along with some photos. Looks to be four prismatic cells with an internal BMS. Would be interesting to know more about these batteries, and how they deal with all the issues raised here.
Good video! I've been eyeing the Antigravity batteries for a while now. It looks like the company built their own BMS, and took into account a lot of the issues you describe (cold, thermal overrun, engine heat etc). They're expensive though, I would love to see a teardown on one of these!
shorai also has a 36ah with [540 cca] I was just comparing with an antigravity ATX20-RS, similarly priced. Both only cost between $2-300
The chemistry do not permit the use in automotive... no matter what you do .. LiFePo4 is not suitable .... ! Appart from buidling an overcomplex device that would heat hitself and waste energy between 2 use of the car/bike....
The company you talk about is just .... lying and they even put a high price to convince some other people ... lol ..
@@davidniquot6423 Rubbish. Maybe tell that to BMW who have used LiFePo4 batteries in the M3 & M4 for many years now...
@@davidniquot6423 I've been using LFP batteries to start tractors, diesel trucks, and other vehicles for many years. So please tell me more about how they aren't suitable.
In Australia we have a DSC branded LFP battery that is under bonnet rated and starting battery, appears to be ok under harsh conditions in offroaders.
Great video. I’ve been wondering about this for years.
I did put one of those small 12V LiFePO4 packs in my ATV and it gave me nothing but trouble. As you said, it would randomly disconnect causing the ATV to just turn off, or it randomly just didn’t supply power (0v at the terminal) only to appear again as soon as I put a charger to it…
Went back to lead acid very quickly..
On the other hand, I had a boat with separate starting and house batteries (both 12v) and it had a combine switch to allow staring the engine with the house battery in an emergency.
I replaced the factory 54ah house AGM battery with a 100ah LiFePO4 battery and it was night and day. I could run fridge, stereo, pumps all day and night and it still had charge…. I never needed to combine but I did test it when I installed it (with a working charged starter AGM battery). I checked what’s going on with a clamp meter and it looks like the slightly higher voltage LiFePO4 battery was charging the AGM battery until they equalised. When cranking, the load is shared between the two batteries so the LiFePO4 wasn’t being overloaded. Once the engine was running, turning off the combine switch split the two so the alternator was now charging just the starter battery.
Very interesting. Just started looking into solar-styled 100ah batteries and wondered whether or not they could be used like you're describing. I wanted to use to batteries in parallel to get more amp hours for my vehicle that runs an inverter and cb radio equipment but it looks like I'll stick to normal side post batteries in that config. Maybe I could use these LiFePO4s' in a pinch but for their cost I'd rather not smoke one!
Thank you for the info!
TBF, all the LiFePO⁴ 12v replacements really need are BMSes with better MOSFETs that can handle the current. And it's not like starter LiFePO⁴ isn't already here. I believe it'll reach a price parity where they'll start to become no-brainers to at least 10% of the market within 2 years.
Interesting. Glad you put it together.
Excellent update on these batteries thank you. Easiest solution seems to be just replace your flooded with flooded, and be done with it. No automobile sensors, switches, or expensive mistakes to worry about.
On the other hand, that alternator is there, so why not just use it a little differently?
You can. But it's going to cost you. It would be a fun project, as some of your commenters have informed with their elegant solutions.
This problem seems to beg an aftermarket fix.
Well, I have been doing it for many years. I will never use small cells with lower amp rating. I have 90AH plastic CALB Lithium iron phosphate cells in 4S configuration with 100 amp Daly BMS and 5A capacitive active balancer. Initially I had no BMS and I was overcharging some cells. Relocate your battery to trunk if you are concerned about high or low temps. These cells have no problem discharging at low temps just charging is disabled at low temp by Daly BMS. But as temperature rises the BMS will let it charge. Cranking amp at 3C of 90 amp or 270 Amp is not a issue. Honestly lead acid batteries are vulnerable to temps too. I was tired of sulfation and short storage life. As far as Alternator goes, you only need to worry about it failing if it is trying to charge a dead battery. But if you have a solar or plugin trickle charger than that is not a issue. Daly does allow you to set high amp disconnect. So set it low if you have a small alternator. I did upgrade mine to 200a alternator. Voltage is fine. My alternator goes to 14.3v and if cells are balanced than it has no issue. I did have to parallel two 100amp Daly bms to support higher cranking amps. They do have no problem with 150 amp surges. There is also a QUCC bms with contactor that can handle higher amps, But it will completely disconnect both charge and discharge circuits. Lead acid is old technology and lithium is the future. Now if you have not seen a out of box solution it does not mean it cannot be done.
good one bro. me the same.
Me too. Going to 8 months now. No problems at all.
i was hoping you'd see this video and comment. glad you can still start your hummer.
how were you able to tune your alternator to only 14.3v? thou you did admit to not using a BMS and overcharged some cells... how did that happen if your alternator 'only' goes to 14.3? even if you use a dc-dc converter, ALL the other problems are still there.
@@dobrzpe Just buy Invicta battery. Voltage regulator maintains 14.3 as it does for lead acid battery. But not all cells are designed the same. So if you are scared than just buy prebuilt.
Out of the box and stock items are for normal sheeple. Not us.
planning to assemble a starter battery using prismatic cells with balancer circuit board instead of bms. will employ super capacitors as well for constant supply for engine preheat coils (because its a diesel engine). will this suffice?
Great video as always
Thank you for taking the time to explain.
can we mix lead-acid and lithium for the boathouse battery?
Good question
I wonder in my old solar capable charger which came from the factory with 2 SLA 12v 100 ah batteries, if I could use a similarly spec lithium battery. Obviously not used to start vehicles. Thanks.
wondering how you feel about hybrid cars with a standerd battery for the engin and the battery place in the rear in the trunk
I remember a video where the lead battery was replaced by a bank of supercapacitors, with the support of a small lipo battery for voltage recharge. If it weren't for the price of supercapacitors, you could create such batteries for cars.
There was "1 year update" and it was working just fine
Yes they had the super capacitor wired directly to the starter only and then the lipo pack was in place of the lead acid then there was a separate charging circuit that ran off the lipo to charge the super capacitor
Laser Saber channel
I remember those videos. I was actually curious about the lithium battery because those things don't like extreme temperatures. The engine bay is definitely a bad place for it.
@@WTF_BBQ is it impossible to place the battery elsewhere? my battery is in the boot since there is no place under the bonnet for it but even in a cheap car the average person could move the battery if he wanted to, if he is not capable of doing such a simple task he shouldnt be messing with the car in the first place
@@dantronics1682
I don't know where else you would put it. Inside the car can get very hot during the summer. I had some lithium batteries in the car before and it damaged the batteries over the summer.
if for some reason the lithium ignites spontaneously, it'll definitely be a bad day.....
I have a super cap under hood and small LifePo4 under back seat. When truck is off, they are in parallel. When truck is on and above 13v they are separated and charged independently. Also have temp sensor on the lifepo4 that switches between charging/heating. Going almost 3 yrs now. Expensive but I'll never have to buy a battery again.
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Love the supercap. Sat in parking lot after work one day watching someone try to jump off a truck that had left his lights on. After 15min of just hearing them getting nothing but clicks, clicks. I drove over, said hold my beer. Hooked cables to my truck, it started instantly. They both just stared in shock at how awesome Toyota trucks must be to be able to do that. I didn't tell them about my secret 10,000 amps. lol
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Must careful with what you "jump"/"power" though, A non resistive or non amps limited load will let the smoke out before you had intended.
What did you use for your super caps? I'm an electrician and am planning this kind of setup for my truck. I was planning on using bank of either 6s1p or 6s2p 2.7v 3000f super caps. Is 6000f overkill for an f150?
@@Brandon_Nelson92 I used prebuilt cap from xspower. It's a 6s1p of 3000f caps. Which is overkill as far starting power goes, literally says on it "10,000amps". But I've seen those $50 ebay 6s1p diy caps of 500f do the same job. So either would be enough starting power even if it said Cat on the engine.
Hope you do a video, narration and/or picture/print publication!
A project well worth sharing!
Last 4 years, I am using supercapacitor parallel with lead acid battery. It take 4-5 year to replace one lead acid battery instead 1-2 years without supercapacitor. Now I am using LiFePO4 and supercapacitor. My main battery is supercapacitor. My LiFePO4(with bms) is backup for supercapacitor (using resistor to charge back supercapacitor). Charging LiFePO4 using car alternator series with diodes (prevent high current).
How do you feel about antigravity H8 sized battery? Made to fit for a car that uses a large H8 battery.
I'm running 48v lifepo4s in 2 electric golf carts and love them. So I'm keen on putting some 12v units on a 1970s sailboat for house and starter duties (small diesel). Thinking 4 x 75-100AH units so that each only sees 25% of the start current draw. No freezing temps, hot engine room or ECU to worry about, leaving only the charge voltage problem. I could just disconnect the alternator and stick to solar for every-day charging, but much better to have multiple charge options. Is there a device to cap the charge voltage from the alternator to 14.4V? Maybe a simple solar charge controller would do it..?
LTO chemistry is the better choice for a starting battery to replace lead acid. It can operate well below freezing, has excellent high C rate discharge ability, pretty decent high temp, and with 6 in series, 14.8 volt charging will keep it well under it's max cell voltage, but also well above it's minimum. They aren't as energy dense as lifepo4 cells are, but still much better than lead. Toshiba makes cells specifically for this sort of purpose, many larger generators use them now. They handle being run flat much better too.
Excellent explanation - Thanks 👍
Hi I em thinking about adding 2 of the tiny ( more basic) type in the rear of my car to help power a audio system and som Auxiliary systems. Because of their small size and decent ah rating. That are designed as start battery so should be ok . But can I connect 2 in parallel ? And can I charge it directly from my alternator
Thank you for this very competent presentation. I was tasked, to design a multicell charger. In over my head, damn thing never worked, never figured out the FET balance or the tempature feedbacks, just given an AD design controller to use. I quit the field after this as it was for an EMP Paul Allen sponsored high burn very visible RD. Didnt go back. Just couldnt stomach wasting money like this as the company set me up team wise to sink or swim. There were no field notes on these controllers or the FETs that are design standard, like we had in my earlier stages as a designer..
Comprehensive vid. I had to put a marine ssb 650cca power sports lanplus battery into my 4wd diesel when my agm completely randomly collapsed while i was in a remote area i left battery in for two weeks before swapping it out. The lithium phosphate battery seems to be fine it did dump charge once while in my car i haven't used it on the boat since would it be damaged at all? I recharged it the lipo4 with a slow repair charge lithium charger and seems to be fine although i'm hesitant to put it into my boat again.
My question is. I have a Old 4x4 and was wondering if I could link a cold crank motorcycle lithium ion battery to my lead acid battery to help the led acid battery do its job more effectively when starting. Using the winch. Using the music amp. What's your thoughts on that. Cheers Marcus
Would be interested to know your thoughts on using a LiFePO4 12V battery as a starter battery for an EV (2013 Nissan Leaf). Other than the cold temp charging concerns, the 12V battery only needs to supply enough power to close the contactors, along with some overhead. For the Nissan LEAF, that's about 250W. The DC-DC converter's output voltage may be too high, it's hard to find good specs on that. Having said that, the DC-DC converter in a LEAF is notorious for under charging the 12V stock lead acid battery.
Prius battery also no alternator, 12v battery is powered by high voltage battery
Don't know about a car, but I've been using a Antigravity battery in my motorcycle for a few years. It's got a nice feature that if it drops in voltage to a certain point, it 'disconnects' itself. You have to push a button on the battery to reset it / turn it back on, and it will usually have enough juice to start the bike. Great for storing the bike. The only problem is that it resets the dash clock...
Thanks for an informative video. The only reason I would want a Li battery is for weight reduction in my car. So lets say I relocated the battery to the trunk of my car saving it from extreme heat and other elements, is it possible to solve the other challenges you mentioned in the video? Can you create a battery which would be safe enough to use in a car ?
They actually already make them. They're just a bit....expensive for now. I'll be surprised if I don't get surprised how much their prices drop in two years, though.
Interesting to note that Tesla are now fitting in their model S plad a lithium starter battery. Of course it’s a lot different to an ice car as there’s no alternator or starter motor to worry about.
Great video. I installed a Shorai lithium in my Harley RoadGlide 7 years ago. It’s still going string and has never given me any issues at all. I installed after my original Harley brand lead acid battery failed at 2.5 years. I bought the bike new. I do use a lithium specific smart charger on it daily. Love the battery and the charger. The performance and longevity has been stellar. Costs more but appears to last much longer.
Very well explained! Well said dude!!!!!!!!
Nice work sir
Thanks
✌️PT
Great points. The application where I think LiFePO4 type batteries are feasible are in hybrid or full electric cars where there is no starter circuit being driven by the 12V battery. Temperature ratings & charging circuitry would need to be addressed. As the various hybrid or plug-in hybrid or full electric vehicles become more mainstream, the value of keeping lead-acid tech in place seems to diminish.
parhaps installa a capacitor on the car voltage system to prevent voltage spike ? or a MOV ?
Great video and logical reasoning
very informative. I have a 9.9 hp outboard motor on a sail boat that can start with a motorcycle/ lawn tractor lead acid battery or pull start.It puts out 14.5 volts at idle. the manufacture says it will charge a lead acid battery to power other loads on a boat. about 3 amps last check. Seams like for me using LIPO4 battery could open up a world of hurt for me in a failed battery case. Thank you
Thank you for Excellent presentation . So many times we have been asked about the same question and our reply No No No .
I don't see any added value in LiFePO4 for starting a car, but well-known European supplier GWL sells them. They are Winston/Thundersky batteries without a BMS and can be used for starting small private planes. Big advantage there is the limited weight compared to SLA.
Would you recommend any of these for a replacement for the lead acid battery of a Tesla?
Thank you 🙏
Excellent explanation!
Great work!
Thank you! great info
Hi thanks for the information. From what you’ve said the bus and temperature are the main issues. With that let me ask your opinion on LTO Cells which have a much broader range of low and high temperature charge / discharge capability. With no BMS and a balancer do you think that they would be a more viable alternative to lifepo?
(Typo: not Bus. BMS.)
if a 12V LiFePO4 Battery is charged at regular intervals, how long will it last as a standby sump pump battery? Assuming it can be used for that.
Really excellent explanation of how and why Lithium batteries are not suitable for automotive use, thanks!!! As an aside I have run into folks who try to use deep cycle batteries to start their diesel pickups. It might work in the summer but when you need a LOT of POWER in the winter they just won't do it.........but they still won't believe me when I tell them not to do it!!!
Yeah... they won't understand until they actually try starting one when it's cold. I killed the batteries in mine just a couple of weeks ago trying to start it when it was 5F overnight. That's the first time it's ever failed starting. Need to get me some new/better batteries soon for sure.
@@LithiumSolar Use your block heater!! Wired up to my block heater plug are a trickle charger to keep the batteries topped up and I have also installed a 50 watt heater in the pan of my transmission. A couple of hours in the morning before work and it starts right up and purrs like a.......tiger !!!!
Fully agree. There are some exceptions. Some do offer LFP cells for starting purposes. With a moderate climate where freezing isn't occuring at extreme cold, LFP still might be an option. But as you said, with the proper cells. I have seen some vendors providing cells for both leisure and starting. But those used Winston cells, and multiple of them in a 2P4S config, to fit in a Ducato(Promaster) battery compartment, so that both provides sufficient capacity, and more starting amps (Winstons are rated at 3C). Also, they allow charging up to -20 celcius, and the LiFeYPO does allow slightly higer voltages (3.85V/cell)
But my personal view? Too expensive. Just stick with lead-acid for starting.
djsmiley01, Yes there are indeed some LFP automotive starting options. Everything you stated is true, with the possible exception of the price issue. I posted a comment about that up above if you are interested.
I would like to have a all in one inverter that I can plug my 24v 3100w solararray in and not use the Ac hookup. Can you tell me what I need?
I was thinking of taking one of those battery pack, car jumpers and keeping it in the vehicle with cables running out to the engine for engine, start ups, and re-charging the battery inside the vehicle off the cigarette lighter outlet. Would that work?
Great video
Here's an idea how it could work:
When below freezing, a battery should have a heater and keep its temperature above freezing. When it gets near depleted (say 50% SOC), it should turn itself off and wait for demand. When it's needed again (when you want to start the car), it should refuse to work (provide no current) but start heating itself, such that if you waited a few minutes your car could start, once the battery is warm. You could use an app to configure things. Special safety measures could be taken to prevent disconnection when the car is running, probably add a supercapacitor just for safety measure and maybe a redundant BMS. Cars have many safety features already, electronics can be quite reliable.
Yes these type of batteries have existed for years.
They already have this. And the design is much less complicated than what you describe: Batteries with internal heaters typically only provide heat when the battery is being charged. IE: Since the cells can't accept a charge when cold: The BMS essentially redirects that charging current to the heaters. Once the cells are warm enough it turns off the heaters and lets the energy flow into the cells.
Since the heaters only operate on power that comes from the charger/alternator: there's no need to worry about them running the battery down. And these batteries also self-heat when cold, so there's no need for it to "refuse to work". A cold LFP can still crank a motor. I've used LFP batteries to crank motors as low 0F. And even if it couldn't: the act of trying to crank the motor creates a lot of heat within the cells (self warming) so even if an LFP is too cold to crank a motor, give it a couple tries and it will generally warm itself up to get it cranked over.
Do you know if the Braille batteries are worth the price? they're apparently made in USA
QUESTION: so when do you start to see damage from low temp charging a Lifepo4 battery? I have purposely kept a 100ah lifepo4 in the freezer for 48 hours, then instantly charged it up at 15 amps. I then did a capacity test and it didn't lose any capacity. This battery obviously doesn't have low charging protection.... But does it need it? I still pulled over 100ah. I'm just curious how many times it needs to be charged below freezing before you see damage. It has to be more than 3 since I have done that process (freeze, charge, test capacity) and it still pulls 100ah....weird right?
That's a very good question... Perhaps something I can do long-term testing of somehow.
@@LithiumSolar sounds good! I've always heard "charge lifepo4 below 32f and it's permanently damaged". My 100ah still works great after 3 charges below 5f. I'm sure you have plenty of 'spare' batteries to test this on and your audience would benefit from the testing.
Charging at low temperatures with a relatively low current like you did (0.15C) should be no problem even with LiFePo4 cells that are not suitable for higher charge currents (>0.5C) at low temperatures. As the battery probably already heats up a little from the discharge current when starting the engine I think the risc of damaging the cells by the alternator recharging it is not that big. But ideally the alternator voltage and thus charging current should be lower as long as the battery is too cold or you should use LiFePo4 cells suitable for low temperature charging if you use them in a cold climate.
Damage from charging a below freezing cell is instant and permanent. The "damage" is caused by Lithium plating so this is an instant and irreversible damage. If you did a capacity test and still pulled 100 AH then there was no damage.
The tricky thing with cold charging LFP is that there's no magic number at which an LFP cell will be damaged by cold charging. Every cell will be different. So 15 amps on your 100 AH cell may have not been an issue at all. 15 amps into a 100 Ah battery is only 0.15 C after all. But if you did the same thing with a 15 AH cell the result may have been much different because that would be a C rate of 1.0.
You *CAN* charge LFP below freezing. But how fast you can charge varies from cell to cell based on how easy the Lithium Ions can intercalate into the anode. Cells that have higher C rates for discharge will generally also have higher C rates for charging because the intercalting process is easier. These same cells with a higher C rate for charge/discharge can also be charged faster at sub freezing temperatures than other LFP cells with lower C rates.
Basically LFP cells don't really "freeze". They just get cold. It just so happens that the temperature where most LFP cells can no longer accept normal charge current is somewhere close to the freezing point of water. But for a cell with a lower C rate you might need to back off charging current at around 40-45 F, or for a cell with a very high C rate you might not have to back off until you get below 0 F.
The whole "don't charge below freezing" is just a rule of thumb. Most LFP cells start to show damage from high charge rates somewhere around 32 F, give or take. So to be safe we generally just avoid charging at all below that temp because unless you have a data sheet that specifies exactly what current you can charge at below 32 F, it's just not typically worth risking your expensive cells.
I bought a $15 aquarium heating pad for my SOK to solve the cold weather charging problem. I've got my battery in a small cooler for added insulation. Problem solved.
can u make the same video again regarding a 100ah AGM battery???
I actually made LiFePO4 battery for my Prius and so far it is doing great after 5 years. They may be better suited for hybrid or electric cars since HEV and EV do not have alternator to charge the 12 Volta auxiliary battery.
What if you put an inverter on the car battery and use the ac output to charge the LiFeO4 in a trailer or camper?
Great video 👍
Thanks for answering the million dollar question. My 22 Tesla Model Y has 12v lithium battery and I been asking myself this question for a while
Hello, Good video ! I just want to mention one thing about the 150 BMS you was discribing...There are BMS that have a spark for a few sec over its nominal amper rating ,and some can reach double and triple.
Check BMS desciption. In my opinion if you make your own car battery with LIFEPO4 Cells you must use the best BMS and the best cells in the market to be sure.
You make sense, and also good idea to add a lead acid starter style battery in parallel with the lifepo4 battery in case the BMS does turn off for whatever reason to avoid voltage spikes from the alternator.
What do you do if you live in cold country below 0c? Risk ruining it by charging below freezing? LEs have been cranking engines without failure for long before LiFePo at 1/5 of the cost. 😉
@@xraykadiddlehopper8067 You can get LFP cells that are rated for cold temp charging. The benefits is that LFP can last much longer than lead acid batteries, 10-20x longer if cared for and they are lighter. If you diy the pack, it isn't much different in price either.
ruclips.net/channel/UCVM3cs0va3nj7g_YikwffNw
@@jovsd.i.yprojects Looks interesting,
but either ID the language BEFORE the link or don't waste our time.
We speak ENGLISH in this country,
some Spanish, Italian, German, Tagalog ,Chinese
& some Eastern European dialects
But I don't have a clue what that gobbledygook is!
So, what is the best setup to use the alternator to charge the lithium solar bank, but, to prevent back drain from the 12v LED Acid car battery drawing from the solar bank when engine is off?
I have an electric car which has a lead acid battery to run the low voltage electrical system and it also powers the high voltage relay to engage the high voltage lithium drive battery. The 12v lead acid battery is a weak point in the system in my opinion. I would like to know if the lead acid battery can be replaced by a lifepo4 battery in my circumstance.
I'm pretty sure these LiFePO4 batteries are actually more ideal for the 12V circuit on electric cars due to not needing large cranking amps and getting recharged by some dumb alternator.
SLA batteries, meanwhile, actually last longer in ICE cars because they need a large starting current regularly to break up deposits on the lead plates.
Was wandering myself for my electric car, no extreme temperature under the bonnet, and it should wight much less.
I know someone that's been using one in his daily driver for 4 years...he drives over 20k miles a year. It was the cheapest battery he could find...no special BMS and we live in Salt Lake City...so hot summers and fairly cold winters
My ride on mower battery has failed. I have a starter battery which is said to be rated for six cylinder use. Can I use this occasionally with my mower without harming it?
I wouldn't use one of these on a mower either for the reasons mentioned; however, there are a number of LFP "sport" batteries out there for such applications, including up to motorcycle use. Those would be perfect for a riding mower!
Can we replace car battery with a bigger battery? like 12V - 150A or 200A .
Perhaps is better with another extra battery?
Looking for a converted camper Prius .
Hi sir i have a question i have lifepo4 of 200ah 48 volt can it happen of the lifepo4 battery inverter broken because i burn twice more in inverter can you please inform me as soon as possible
Good info!
Have you looked at the Dakota Lithium DL+ 12V started battery? What are your thoughts?
What if I want to replace the lead acid battery in my electric chevy Bolt ?
Hey,
What about using them for a Prius 12v battery replacement? The prius does not have a 12v starter motor or a 12v alternator. The Prius uses one of its 2 Motor Generators to charge its nimh 200 volt battery and a DC to DC converter to charge the 12v battery.
I've seen such lifepo replacements, can you confirm it's safe and efficient?
I don't know anything about the Prius to be able to comment on safety or efficiency.
A NOCO GB150 Lithium Jump box started my 7.3 PowerStroke Diesel when both the vans's batteries were dead. And I can recharge the GB150 using the 12v power plug on my dash. It seems like a small step to make this all work without the lead acid battery. Maybe keep one small lead acid battery for when the van is running and the Lithium just starts the engine?
My truck is equipped with 4X 1000CCA batteries, it would take a lot of copper to get a 4000amp 14v source to the starter. My batteries are also located in a separate compartment away from the engine so they're more likely to be ambient temperature, freezing in the winter and 110 degrees in the summer but not affected by the drive train of the vehicle.
Most likely your starter motor is 24V and the batteries are 2s2p (2 in series and 2 of those in parallel).
What about AGM glass matting batteries in a marine application ?
You should test antigravity car batteries lifepo4 chemistry. BMW and other car manufacturers have been using lifepo4 with success for years. Many autocross racers and track cars use antigravity batteries since there more reliable and weight is less than lead. Hope you buy one to tear it down to see how they make them for car use.
Can it be used for a hybrid vehicle?