The P-47 Debate is Delayed, but Still Happening!
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- Опубликовано: 19 апр 2024
- I'm sorry about this delay, but there just wasn't anyway for me to avoid it. When it does happen it's going to be great. I think Mr. Marshall is going to be well prepared and well versed in the subject matter, and I KNOW I'm ready. It's going to be great.
Along with the debate I'll be putting up a large amount of new P-47 information in the Pateron section. P-47 manuals you likely have never seen before, three of them, as well as a pile of relevant documents.
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Paypal: mistydawne2010@yahoo.com 
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Nothing better than hearing "greetings, this is Greg"
I see the notification and look forward to the moment I get home to hear those words
True! I’d also add that “lady’s and gentlemen it’s your friend Mike Brady from Ocean Liner Designs!”
The best part of the upcoming talk, as somebody who doesn't have a dog in the fight, is that whatever happens, I will get to learn a little more about the subject. Thanks to both of you for taking the time to share your points of view.
Yep, same here. Oth, if they were comparing it to a Hurricane...lol
I have every confidence that this will be a civilized, gentlemanly debate.
@@UncleJoeLITE "Oth, if they were comparing it to a Hurricane."
A beloved plane the Hurricane. The P-40 was better... 😇
@@scottgiles7546 I'll see you in the carpark later...
@@UncleJoeLITEWhen you get a challenge in the bar you agree to the fight, look towards the door. and say, "You walk out as if nothing is happening, I'll be with you in two minutes.'
And let him cool of while you get out the back way. 😊
Glad to see a friendly debate
Touché. Hats off to Greg for clarifying the reasons for the delay and keeping it civil.
Thanks for the update, Greg - we’re all looking forward to this!
The last time I was this early the P-47s didn’t have drop tanks 😉
Greg, quality takes time, and we collectively enjoy a QUALITY PRESENTER combined with quality viewers...a LOVELY combination !! THANK YOU
I'm happy to hear that the 190 series is still being worked on! Can't wait for the next video.
Best of luck sorting out the technical issues - it's always frustrating to have a major update go live that affects what you can do with the software.
Hope this is friendlier than the recent debates of tank enthusiasts.
I think it will be, although if I cared about the topic enough, I would like to debate Lazerpig on some of his German tank stuff.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Would be the most bombastic debate on a topic near to my heart in a very long time.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobilesI would pay serious money to see that 😂
Then again you gave such a high caliber of knowledge/delivery I don’t think it would be a valuable use of your time.
Greg , in the book The Big show , the author is a spitfire pilot and says the 8af asked the Raf for help on an escort mission , it took 3 days for a factory to make and equip the entire unit of spits with drop tanks . So I think you're right , drop tanks are a technically trivial problem to solve .
I know it's just a claim but it supports your analysis .
I was a P-51 fan as a kid. Built the models & even a couple U-controls. Then I grew up. Now I'm a P-47 fan.😁
Greg,
I've been looking for some specific archival footage of a P-47 for a while now. The clip shows a P-47 taxiing on the ground shortly after landing from a combat mission. In the clip you can clearly see one of the upper cylinders on the front row of the radial has been shot off. The piston and rod are still connected and can be seen flailing around. I think it perfectly showcases the ruggedness and get-you-home capability of the P-47. Saw this clip in a documentary or informational video about the P-47. Might've been on RUclips, but just can't remember. Please let me know if you have come across this clip in your research.
Thanks
You mean the the ruggedness and get-you-home capability of the R-2800 with that example. The missing parts and numerous bullet holes on landing are the P-47's part of that.
Very much excited for the debate and your up coming videos. Their isn't a video that you've uploaded that I didn't find interesting, thank you so much for all you do
This is an awesome update. You should take advantage of the delay to pick 4 documents to present during the debate, just to keep things equal. Eagerly anticipating this even though I just found out about it today.
Still very interested in the upcoming debate! Sounds well organized and it's Honorable of you to post this. 👍
Thanks Greg, looking forward to this debate. I was a fan of the P-47 years before I discovered your channel, you reinforced my love for the plane with the volume of info you provided. I have bias, assuredly, especially for the later models and the improvements.
Greg is the first person that I have run across that has backed up the fact that the P51 was not the only plane that flew long range escort missions. Please read “Thunderbolt!” for your selves. Thanks Greg, looking forward to the debate.
i love how goering is quoted about mustangs over berlin when 38s were there a year prior
@@daiichidoku Mustangs did recon over Berlin Before a P-47 even flew its first combat mission, in RAF service.
Yes, exactly. How does this stuff just keep going? It doesn’t help that every Spielberg production involving WW2 is basically a North American add campaign….goodness!
@@user-vk5rs5qi6l Spielberg lives mustangs "tank busters"
@@SoloRenegade sure. and early recce spitfires went as far as switzerland. but we are talking about escort missions, not recce flights. apples and oranges. and that puts 38s first over berlin. long before mustangs. 38s also did the very longest range/endurance combat missions of the war, of fighter types. 11 hour missions in PTO, IIRC.
I look forward to this debate and am glad to see it is still on. Greg, your presentation on the range issue of the P-47 answered a number of questions I had been mulling over the past few years. The narrative of the P-51 as the savior aircraft (the allies would have lost the war without it) just never rang true for me. I tend to be a fanboy for both the Mustang and the Thunderbolt, but some historians take their arguments to extreme which detracts from reality. Case in point is the Whites’ book Wings of War.
Rigid doctrine and a measure of arrogance in top level command is a topic that should be addressed more extensively. The order by Hap Arnold on fighter drop tanks is a case in point. I remember reading (and I am trying to track down the reference) an event where Hap Arnold had chastised the members of the 339th (who when equipped with P-38’s were the unit that shot down Yamamoto) for not shooting down more zeros when they were equipped with P-39’s. In the account I read Arnold’s titrate was quite similar to Herman Goering’s dressing down of his Jagdwaffe pilots, but Arnold did stop short of ordering one pilot in every unit shot for cowardness.
Every now and then in my reading on the subject of WW2 aviation I encounter a description of Arnold’s activities that have made me raise an eyebrow. I have begun to consider that there may have been a rigid irrational dark side of Arnold that has never been adequately addressed by historians due to his hero status. Would be interesting fodder for some PhD candidate’s doctorate dissertation.
General Kenney, 5th Air Force Commander and advocate of the P-38 said in his book, General Kenney Reports, that he knew General Arnold did not think much of the P-38 as a fighter.
@@martinricardo4503The P38 had a tactical number of .68 as opposed to .78 for the P51 so Arnold was correct - it wasn’t much of a fighter.
Always enjoy your supremely researched topics. While I know your fondness for the P-47 navigates a lot of your positions, the Fighter range issue in the ETO being limited in discussion to just the P-47 and P-51 always seemed rather incomplete, as the P-38 definitely had the range capability. However, due to the Brits octane gas in that theater constantly blowing up Allison engines, and USAAC making the decision to send the majority of P-38 units to the MTO (a necessary task) before a remedy could be found as the pivot to excluding what could have been. (Would be ecstatic if you did a video on the Allison/ETO octane issue!!). Warren Bodie in his P-38 book touches on this point thoughtfully. As you indicated, 8th AF Bomber Command really made it a political issue to protect their doctrine, but saving aircrews should have been a bigger priority. Thanks for all the content!
Would love to see this debate. Argued against one or two guys about it. I took Greg's side, and they threw enough reading material by the time I went thru it I decided screw it been long enough to just drop it, thought they were still wrong on the basis the 8AF could have provided P-47s with drop tanks earlier and still chose not to do so.
may the debate never get settled, so that we have quality content continuing into the future!
Never thought he was trying to duck out of the debate.
Whelp,,, back to my War for Badab video series!
Looking forward to the debate whenever it takes place!!!!!
As long as it still happens I’m okay with waiting until it does. Most folks have busy lives, throw on some tech snaffles and it’s easy to get a setback or two.
If you think about it, the fact that you gents can even consider having this debate live before a worldwide audience in the first place is a marvel of technology that we all take for granted nowadays.
Best of luck, and I hope all goes well next time.
Can't wait for the video on the Fw190 Fs. Pretty damn good attackers - very fast at low altitude with good payloads. The 190 Gs are also quite interesting, as the later models could also carry quite large bombs on the wings instead of just on the centerline.
Aren't you confusing F and G.
F could carry up heavier bombs under the wings.
The G was a long range fighter bomber, which had extra drop tanks under the wings, with almost double the range.
This modification shows, that the 190s airframe could have been a long range escort fighter as well.
@@HaVoC117X Yes, but the late G models could also carry 250kg bombs on the wings, which I hadn't seen on any F model.
@@reinbeers5322 a typical load out for F8 was three 250kg bombs.
@@HaVoC117X I'd love to see an armament chart for it if you have one, though I know youtube gets pissy with links.
@@reinbeers5322 found some with Google picture search if that helps....
I'm on your side of this debate Greg. Looking forward to this "debate". (The facts indicate who will "win" here.)
I don't doubt the sincerity or veracity of either parties, so I await the debate whenever possible.
Looking forward to learning more from Greg and Mr. Marshall.
Excellent channel, Greg. One of the best that I watch on YT.
The cross between John Bernthal and a young Brad Pitt look has surprised some who expected you to look like a P-47 with a centre drop tank.
Because we want our children and grandchildren to better understand what really happened in the war. Because we deserve to know what was kept hidden from our fathers.
Yes, but I think it's more than that. It's about understanding how narratives can be easily directed, even when clearly false.
It is OK. We will be there! Thanks for the info.
Take your time Greg. We will be right here! 👍
I haven't travelled much, so I'm surprised to hear that hotel Internet is so dodgy. You'd think that in the 21st Century hotels would have Internet that worked as standard, but obviously not. I do remember back in the day when I worked in IT, a customer called me asking for advice about getting his dial up modem working in his fancy hotel in Mumbai. It was trying to dial up the company I worked for and was confusing the hell out of the hotel switchboard operator. At that hotel, all outside calls had to be placed by the operator and then they would call you back. Like something out of the Nineteenth Century. Time to change hotel.
I'm just now finding out about this debate, I loved your P47 series and I'm sure I will love this debate.
Greetings from Fairbanks, Alaska. I hope the day in Anchorage was as nice as it was here. Sunny and about 60 degrees.
Connectivity in Anchorage is iffy between all of the various streaming platforms simultaneously. Alaska has power issues almost all of the time due to the Aurora Borealis. Line voltage from a regular 120v outlet can range from 180v all the way down to 75v. It's fun to play with in the data center spaces. ;-)
I totally bought the P51 range story from the bomber Mafia. Greg is the only person who I've ever seen push back again that narrative. I'm excited to hear this debate.
Nice to meet you, long time viewer and subscriber. Also drove a FIAT 124 in my young fourteen 😊, you'll understand the catch.
Looking forward to this debate ,
Thanks again Greg for the effort You spend on these videos. I am waiting patiently for Your next offering.
Best Wishes to You and Your Family.
Look forward to hearing what you guys have to say!
(Having been greatly impressed by your marshalling of information in your Thunderbolt videos); I have just been reading "Big Week" by James Holland, which is about the Point Blank strategy of destroying the Luftwaffe, and the massive "Operation Argument" USAAF/ RAF raids of late February 1944.
I was repeatedly struck by the degree to which Holland is subject to a kind of *mania* of pro-Mustang P-51 worship. This somehow led him to to neglect the actual facts wrt numbers and types of Mustang, and the timeline of their introduction; so that he was repeatedly contradicting himself by hugely over-estimating the impact of the P-51.
As you demonstrated, and as Holland himself says without noticing he has said it (!); the Mustang simply *cannot* have done more than (valuably) help *finish-off* the Luftwaffe, because it was not there (in sufficient numbers) to do more than that.
I'm looking forward to this discussion and the facts and arguments presented.
Never sacrifice quality for quantity!
No worries. We´ll be there.
Welcome to Anchorage!! :D
I am eagerly awaiting this debate....
Really looking forward to this.
No worries Greg. It'll happen. 👍
No problem, make it a good debate
I love your videos Greg, looking forward to hearing this debate. I think that the best thing about you is that you are an enthusiast. Every RUclipsr that I enjoy listening to is
This transparency and level of respect shown is unparalleled. Thank you for this!
Welcome to Alaska - from a viewer in Anchorage.
Looking forward to it even if I catch it belatedly.Well I think drop tanks were a factor in that it was part of Hap Arnold's job description to coordinate stateside industry in providing whatever was necessary to win the war in the air. Narratives of nearly everything about WW2 are changing as more objective assessments based on wider sources that since have become available and this issue probably won't be an exception.
..
However Gabreski himself said the 56th FG wasn''t really ready to exploit advantages of their aircraft thru the first half of '43 and that the 56th had lost 9 pilots to training incidents before they had even left the states! That leads me to suspect that the Jug was a relative hand-full for green pilots and presented a slower proficiency curve.
.
That and the P51's wider performance and altitude parameters added to the logistical advantages of cost, production rate and lower fuel consumption, range arguments aside, make the P51 a logical choice for the 8th AAF fighter of choice . . . which Greg has already as much as agreed with on logistical arguments.
P-51 vs P-47 would be a different topic, one that might be fun for a debate, but not what we are doing this time.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Understood. Focus is on the comparative range. The 56th escorted into Germany in early '44 with drop tanks so it, for sure, could've been done earlier.
I never got to meet the Uncle lost on his 12th mission as a substitute waist and tail gunner for the 351st Bomb Group in June of '43. Target was "Henschel Motor Works" in Kassel Germany. The B17, "Poisonality". made it back to Polebrook England but was scrapped after that mission. So I'm much appreciating y'all's debate.
The first U.S. B-17 mission in Europe was flown on August 17, 1942, by a dozen 97th Bombardment Group B-17s against the railroad marshalling yards in the French city of Rouen. It was escorted by spitfires.
Your point is?
@@martinricardo4503 there was some awareness but the 8th airforce of their need to have escorts from the start, so any explanation of tactics will be complicated. Also its interesting to see RAF USAAF cooperation
Greg, thank you for this message, and welcome again to Alaska, good sir. Thanks!
I can wait for quality
This could be a disappointing debate if both sides actually start from an agreement that there was no fighter escort provided in 1943. Even the Schweinfurt raids had fighter escort on the way out and on the way back, but the escorts did not yet have have the range to accompany the bomber deep into Germany. I can see debating why the escort range was limited, but I can't see debating whether there was any intent to provide escort.
Gort, I said that fighter escort was not provided for the most part in 1943 to 8th airforce bombers. That's not the same as saying there were absolutely no fighter escorts.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles My reading indicates that they were provided for the most part, as was planned from the start. I'll wait to see if the phrase "for the most part" is parsed during the debate.
Gort, this video is a quick update on the status of the debate. I think your reading a bit more into it that is actually there.
Don't need to apologize for nothing Greg, we can wait
I was fortunate enough to see a p51 flying at an air show today, it was great but I would have rather seen the thunderbolt
About 20 years ago, I had the immense pleasure of seeing a P-40, a P-47 and a P-51 in formation arriving at the local airport for an event weekend. That Saturday, I also had the pleasure of attending an outdoor wedding that just happened to be in the flight path for the event. I remember being quite thankful that I was only a guest, as I had great difficulty keeping my attention on the ground based proceedings.
Go get him Mr. Greg! I am really looking forward to this.
Awww man I'm really looking forward to this I hope you can get the technical issues ironed out soon.
Thank you for your update, looking forward to it.
Winced when I saw the room you sitting in…they all look the same after a few years don’t they ? Excellent wi-fi connection in this place? Have a safe sequence.
Will wait and enjoy when it happens.
I'll be waiting with great anticipation
Welcome back to ANC Greg!
Greg! Love your vids, man. Looking forward to the debate.
Hey, it’s Greg!
The voice of reason and knowledge.
Cannot say how much I enjoy your videos. Between your videos and Zenos Warbird Drive-in, I've got it all. Thank you! Don't worry too much about tech glitches. Hang in.
Thank you for making these videos. Love all of tnem!
Just have him hold docs up to camera or take his word for them and can be cross checked later. Love you Greg!
That would have been fine with me, but apparently that idea was a no go.
looking forward to this Greg..
Dear Greg,
Now I have a face for the bloke who has instructed me into some of the intricacies of aviation, my particular interest being aeroengines, (e.g. the Napier Sabre). Much of it beyond my ken but I enjoy aerodynamics etc.
Thank you. You're a pal.
You also speak English pretty well.
Slante!
☘👿
Tasmania.
For an issue that was so prominent 80+ years ago, it is amazing that circumstances can be seriously debated today by two simultaneously credible individuals. Further, if the standard line can be debunked, what other historical falsehoods have been accepted for decades, and why? Is ultimate truth ever attainable?
My two cents: It's true that figures like Eaker believed the B-17, armed with its 12 .50 caliber guns, could handle German day fighters, particularly when supported by YB-40 convoy defenders. Also the (necessary) withdrawal of the P-38s from the ETO to the MTO can be seen in this vain. However, this does not imply that the 'Bomber Mafia' actively resisted or failed to pursue improvements that could have extended the range of the P-47. The USAAF consistently utilized fighter escorts from the time it was stationed in England, which demonstrates that the 'Bomber Mafia' recognized the importance of escort fighters. A fortnight or so before the Schweinfurt/Regensburg raids, early droptanks for the P-47 became available which extended the P-47's range to the German border, but these leaked badly and were unusable at high altitudes. The better 150 gallon droptank became not available before the end of that year.
I still can't wait. Looking forward to next video as always
I am looking forward to this. I am a fan of both Greg and Marshall.
Looking forward to this still! As well as a P-38 vs mosquito video lol.
Looking forward to it
Drop tanks and the p47. I have seen pictures of the P47 with several configurations: centerline only, one on each wing and centerline with both wing tanks. But I am pretty sure I saw a picture of P47's operating from Iwo Jima with Two tanks per wing.
Got my popcorn, waiting to learn! If only I was this excited for some of college classes🧐
Welcome to Anchorage! I'd enjoy taking you out for a burger at Seward's Folly if it ever worked out when you are in town.
COOL MR GREG FLY SAFE
This is going to be great. I hope this gets going.
Haywood S. Hansell was a visionary ahead of his time. Or perhaps a man of his time. He could see the future and benefits to strategic precision bombing, but failed to account for the limitations of the present in 1942/43. And again in 1944/45 with the impossibility of precise accuracy of dropping unguided munitions while cruising in 100kt jet streams.
Greg , How fast in MPH was the spitfire going when in hit .89 at 29k ft ? My calculations seem wrong , low i mean 405 mph
True airspeed would be 527mph. However I have serious doubts about that ever happening.
Got to live this kind of super deep geekery. I am excited to learn more about this esoteric topic
Greetings Greg, we can all wait. Not a big deal, enjoy Alaska.
I would love for you to make a documentary on the Junkers Jumo engine, in all of its variants, upgrades, etc................
I would recommend using discord as opposed to zoom I remember using zoom for my school and it was a nightmare during the pandemic and ultimately we ended up using discord for lectures during covid
Can't wait!
Greetings, Greg!
So........, no pressure, but I'm on night shift 24th, 25th, 26th & 27th. So anytime then would be absolutely fine with me😉
I'm just thinking there's two options:
revert to the old zoom update?
use a different meeting app?
OBS
De Bate! De Bate! De Bate! De Bate!
Best Channel.
Excellent! From your new Okie flying buddy
A fellow Okie, that makes me happy.
Perhaps call them the “Bomber Cartel”?
The term Bomber Mafia was a term coined by the US Army Air Force itself. Though Not an official designation. Best explained in the Book, Black Snow, Curtis LeMay and the firebombing of Tokyo by James M. Scott. It was all about mission tactics and strategy.
Thanks!
Wow, twice in one day. Thanks, I do really appreciate it.
Would definitely feel privileged to debate you. I’d lose though 😂.
No apologies necessary. The time will come when everyone is ready. I'm looking forward to the debate.