Messerschmitt Bf 109 , Why an INVERTED V-12 Pt. 1? inverted V12s vs. upright
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 10 апр 2019
- Why did the Germans use inverted V12s so frequently? If there were advantages to that design, why did Allison, Rolls Royce and Packard all go with upright V12s for their various engines in WW2? That's the topic for discussion in this video.
We get a bit off the topic here going into PT boat and tank engines. This isn't a tank video, but some explanation of the reasons the US didn't initially go with heavy tanks, and thus didn't need the Allison V-1710 in a tank needed to be explained. Anyway, I hope you guys like the video.
I know my comment about the US Army intentionally slowing down to allow the Soviets to reach Berlin first per the Yalta agreement is going to come up in the comments, so here is a source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to...
Updates, a lot of planes had guns mounted on the cowling way before the Germans started using inverted V-12's. In fact the VAST majority of fighters from 1915-1940 were set up that way, regardless of engine type. The 109 wasn't originally designed with gun firing through the prop hub, that was added to the design and was initially a machine gun. Hispano Suiza, and various Soviet engines were set up to fire through the prop hub as well, so I don't see that as being a reason to use an inverted V-type engine.
Please watch Part 2 as it explains a lot of things that have come up in the comment section of this video.
The Official auto and Air Fan Store is Here!
gregs-airplanesandautomobiles...
My Patreon: / gregsairplanesandautom...
Links to Taylor's Book:
archive.org/details/C_Fayette...
and repository.si.edu/handle/1008... 
Авто/Мото
As an FAA-licensed A&P Mechanic, I can tell you that inverted engines have less wear because upon start up, the cylinders have better lubrication. This is because gravity causes oil to settle in the cylinder walls. The primary benefits are visibility, maintenance access and less engine wear.
I can see that. because there is oil that settles around the piston rings. so there's less friction when starting. Great point
Too bad about those main and con rod bearings.
David Gold great point but in theory the ground crew could turn the propeller by hand as it is usually done on big radial engines in order to scavenge oil around especially on the lower heads but I never seen it done on the Merlin / Packard engines, why?
@@paoloviti6156 On radial engines, it's possible to get a hydraulic lock if the bottom cylinder is on compression. The Packard/RR are upright and therefore the oil drains away from the pistons.
Did you have to clear oil accumulating in the cylinders prior to starting to avoid "hydraulicking".
I enjoy the absence of bias and bravado which seems rare, just well resourced facts, very well presented with a clear voice and smooth accent! Thank you Greg!
I know. Can you believe our news used to be presented the same way?
Jerry Banks News never had been unbiased in history ever. Stop talking such nonsense.
@@Leon_der_Luftige How old are you?
@@JerryBanks572 Today we got more information and more opportunities to be unbiased than ever but the news choose to be biased still.
Back in the day before the internet things were misinterpreted so often...Or just as today, it's always the "us against them" scenario. How much more biased can you get? It's always been like that.
@@JerryBanks572 I hate to break it to you mate but news was always biased.
I think it's worth considering the number of inverted engines that were produced for aircraft use. The costs savings in maintenance might have been huge for their fleet size.
Another side benefit of the inverted v12 was a slight decrease in noise experienced by the pilot- the exhaust stacks were much lower.
İs sound going really lower or just a little effect
@@semihegeakdogan4964 It CAN be noticed,but i would not call it an important thing..you won´t hear much outside the cockpit either way :D
Surely every little helps. Remember, I don't think the Germans were using turbos, which means losing their muffling effect.
Many early aircraft in WW1 up to the beginning of WW2 had inverted engines. This allowed the direct propeller drive of the engine to be higher in the airframe helping with propeller/ground clearance. This may have influenced the later German designs.
And possibly also keeping the thrust line in the right place.
I bet you're right. It allowed a larger diameter prop with shorter landing gear.
See what DeHavilland did when they went from the Gipsy Moth to the Moth Major. That was the exact reason why.
Yep, but once you go geared you have the opposite problem. The prop shaft of the 109 is lower.
I think your right. A tradition of inverted aero engines made them comfortable with the inverted layout even when the primary reason for it went away with reduction geared outputs.
I am studying to be a war historian and I'm quite "the nerd" when it comes to the technology of WW2. I had never once considered why the most of the V-type piston powered aircraft have an inverted engine. This was very fascinating and very enlightening for me! Thank you sir! As a war historian I love your channel! Keep up with your great work!
You must remember that only the Germans adopted the inverted V-12 engines unless it was produced under license in other countries including Sweden and Japan. The allies only produced upright V-12 engines aside the radial engines produced on both sides.
It’s worth obtaining the Rolls Royce Heritage trust book 31 on George Bulman, it covers the development of all British engines. The interesting element was RR first proposed the 27 litre Merlin inverted, a mock-up PV12 in the early 30’s, and was sent to all manufacturers for comment. They being conservative in design were not impressed. However has the story goes visiting German RLM engineers were very impressed so you get the inverted German engines. Whether true or a myth it makes a great story.
While discussing the merits of the German inverted V-12s, I think I am one of MANY folks that did NOT expect you to tie that into the engines in...tanks! These are the kinds of things that make your channel so darned interesting! When I see an M1 (and I am around them nearly every day!), I still scratch my head and wonder how someone married a helicopter engine up to a tank. Someone did and it clearly works. Again, things like this are very interesting and thanks for sharing your knowledge!
I have always wondered about the 'why' of the inverted V12 in aircraft.. Your video answered that beautifully !! Thank you for work on this subject.
I believe this analysis is 100% spot on. Logistics is one of those things people just don't take into consideration most of the time when discussing these topics. fantastic.
Thanks Central.
Yes. Cost and standardization is also a thing often forgotten. Bf 109 won over the He112 because it cost half of what the Heinkel cost, even if it was slightly lower performing. Standardization allowed also to use different engines easily on some airframes. Ju88/188 could use Jumo211 or BMW801 with ease. In general though it was one of the biggest failings of the German industry to not be standardized enough.
a higher number of units are Often better than a few slightly better ones
as the case with German tigers/Panthers vs Sherman/T34s
@@JoelLinus wat
Amatuers study tactics
Professionals study logistics
Once again i am glad to see quality content from you. Thank you
According to a teacher that I had in Airplane Mechanic School in 1973 and 74, Merc Motter said that the reason for the crankshaft being on top in German aircraft was That they didn't have the quality on materials for bearings available to them as we did so they had to be able to change bearings much more frequently then we did hence the reason for the crankshaft on top to allow for quick easy bearing changes.
The distributer / Mag. and valves need the most "love" . Germans invented steel.
I can't believe how interesting Greg's videos are! I'm quite addicted to this channel now, Tthanks for your work Greg.
The 109 had exceptional focused firepower with it's engine block mounted cannon that fired through the gear reduction hub and nose cone. As well as the two MG 131s firing forward of the cockpit and along each side of the crankcase. Also keeps the weight of the guns and ammunition in the fuselage and not way out in the wings.
Reg Spitalls, the Northampton tank commander, said the only way to kill a tiger tank was to get round the back of it and bust either a track or the gas tank. He survived the war!
I really love how you are very clear about what is a sourced fact and what is your educated conclusion on things. It's so refreshing for this site.
I love the fact that you often go off-track in your videos! That way, we can learn other fascinating facets of technology, that we otherwise would never have encountered. Thanks for this immense work!
Greg, I'm really glad your channel is starting to get the recognition it deserves. Great stuff as always.
An underrated channel indeed! Awesome content keep it up!
But loved and appreciated by those that know it.
@@bigblue6917 100% AGREE; WITH BOTH OF YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I find it amazing he doesn't have 100's of thousands of subs , honestly!
I believe another reason for having inverted v-12 engines, is because, even when the engines haven’t been working for a while, the cylinders and pistons, don’t dry out of oil, gravity contribute to have them lubricated
Greg, you asked why Germans used the inverted V12.
I suspect or has to do with having enough space for the 2 machineguns above the engine.
This kind off engine has the advantage off flying inverted with having no fuel problems because off its pumping system wich RollsRoyce Merlin did found out.
As others have said, your presentations are a highlight. Well done Greg. I find all your videos very engagingly presented and loaded with interesting detail. Thanks!
It's hard to argue against the logic you have used for the reasons for inversion, in this excellent summary
Greg, without overuse of superlatives, your videos are sheer magic!
Thank's John, I am glad you like them.
Magic to us, John, but I think he still makes them the old fashioned way. A lot of hard work and research.
@@bigblue6917 you're-absolutely right!
His use of superlatives is appropriate considering he is dealing with data that could be debunked or argued against. Superlatives are a product of our adversarial times.
Another great topic and video! Kept my attention the whole time, partly from all the great photographs matching all the topics. Love your work, keep it up! :)
Thank you for another excellent and informative video. I really appreciate the time and care you obviously take in creating these gems.
I really enjoyed this program and learned things I never knew before. Thank you for the well presented account.
A simple food for thought comment. Mercedes Benz 300 gull wing had direct cylinder injection and had problems with cylinder ring washing with fuel on no start conditions damaging. Rings and bore,inverting would allow it to simply go out the exhaust doing no damage to cylinders and bores due to no lubrication from washing with fuel
Or cause hydrolock and damagethe whole engine
The MB 300 gull wing used a straight-six engine...
@@spitefulwar an upright one so that's why he said that 300 had issues with ring washing, inverted engine avoids that problem. How many cylinders does not matter, their orientation does
@@mmdirtyworkz It was a straight six but not very upright one at all. The ring washing problem was the fault of the groundbreaking direct fuel injection system, so trying to fix a fuel supply problem by turning the engine upside down is just ridiculous. The engine had seen service earlier in a 4 door Mercedes with carburetors without any problems.
@Max Pain Also, keeping the hot exhaust gas low and away from the tail helped with rudder efficiency because it made sure the rudder was as much as possible flowing in dense, cold air.
Fascinating. Many thanks for posting this.
Thank you for proposing logical explanations to a question that I have been wondering about for a long time.
I just love your channel Greg i could listen to your warm agreeable voice all day long talking about any subject, But your prowess in aviation and automobile engineering are as clear as day. Combined with your thoroughly researched material, clarity of thought, unbiased analysis and rationale. Thank you once again Greg totally superb !!!
Always but always fascinating discovery and analysis. Deeper understanding and appreciation of the machinery. Love it.
great doco, another use of non inverted V-12s was in Air-Sea Rescue boats, the RAAF rescue boats used right up until 1986 had twin Hall Scott Defender V-12s
Yip, that makes me think of the river boats in Vietnam. I road in a few of those manning a 50 cal & in my youth then I didn't pay much attention to what powered them, but they did haul ass!
Another great video. Your conclusions make a lot of sense to me. Thank you and please keep it up.
Nice to hear an analysis that includes logistical support. Well done.
Greg, Always a pleasure. Everything I've read, where they do add input by Db Engineers and the "Blackshirts" is serviceability and ease of maintenance for the Db's, plus the small valve train pieces were the main culprit for engine failure, invert the "V" add small magnets in critical areas, supposed longer life. Again great vids and info
At the Messerschmitt foundation in Germany they told me that the main reason was the weight distribution down to the longitudinal axis reducing adverse jaw and faster roll rate. The heavy gun and accessories are all underneath the crankshaft.
Centralising rotating & static mass along the thrust line axis will certainly take some wobble out your roll.
As usual an interesting and informative presentation. I was also fascinated by the report on Landstuhl/Ramstein. My father was stationed at Ramstein when I was in grade school in the 60s. We had more than one family outing hiking to the Landstuhl castle. As I recall it was mostly just a ruin in those days. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!
Sorry, but I'm still trying to get my head around the concept of a throughly sensible, informative and enjoyable RUclips clip. Very well done indeed.
When you look at a 109 it makes sense.
Bill Cotton really, the spanish Casa made Buchon seems to be wrong with the merlin, even the very first 109 prototype used RR engine..
Greg, once again a brilliant video, I have to agree with your theories you presented, I have wondered why the some engines were preferred over others, keep up the great work!!
Excellent, concise, educational and a pleasure to listen to as usual !. Many thanks from the UK.
I've never been one to comment on audio but good god is this mans audio on point. It just sounds so much better then other channels
Another great video from you! You are a real "talking encyclopedia ". Thx for upload Greg ;D
It's kind of funny that I came for a lesson on inverted engines and got one of the best arguments in support of the Sherman tank. Your channel has the right mix of technical and story telling to keep it very interesting.
The origin of the PT-109’s motor is in here, too! 8:20
Unless you actually were IN a Sherman when it got blasted and incinerated everyone in it of course!
The only arguments in support of the Sherman tank are in it's cost and production capability. Otherwise it was a poor machine, badly designed and incapable of taking on it's opposition. The soldiers left to fight in it were abandoned to economics, left to burn, because it was more cost effective to allow them to die rather than to build a better tank. Dead soldiers provide only tiny pensions for widows, much cheaper than a production run on a really good tank.
@@tag491a And yet none of that is true.
@@jaykilbourne1110 Substantiate your statement.
You make everything smooth Greg!!
Thanks for another great video presentation.
I always learn so much from your thoroughly detailed and in depth explanations.
Very fascinating.
☺
I initially thought that lower centre of gravity might be the inspiration behind this design. But ease of maintenance and better visibility add up to three out of three advantages over a standard upright V design. You managed to answer your own question and very elegantly too I might say. Thanks for that.
Terrific video...love the info. I look forward to your videos with glee. Thanks for the hard work and research. Cheers,
Carl, I appreciate your support.
Another excellent and highly informative video well done Greg. Great knowledgeable and unbiased style superb!
Well done channel and really appreciate the appropriate references. Very well done.
You did a great presentation!!
Please keep it goin!!!
From a factory trained Waukesha VHP mechanic!!!
Love me some V12
The audio quality in your video is exceptional!
Thanks for your very interesting and in depth presentations Greg.Cheers from Australia.
As usual, very interesting and informative.
This man is a wealth of information with a very professional presentation!
in my opinion the best video-source about airplane design and related topics.
Absolutely
Great video Greg , I guess another advantage of the inverted V, (in the case of the 109 and 190d at least ) would be having room for armament centrally located in the nose..Incidentally my father was a mechanic during the war and worked on the DB 605 , BMW 801 , the Argus AS 10 as well as the Maybach V12.s used in tanks and halftracks.
I agree 100% with Greg’s analysis. I really like this channel and his great speaking voice is perfectly suited for videos. Excellent topics, well researched, produced and presented. I’m a fan. Thank you
Thanks so much for this and other videos! As a WWII aviation buff, I thought I knew a lot about the subject, but I have learned a ton from your videos. Thanks, again!
I was thinking "improved visibility" when I clicked on this and right away, you state that is your highest contender amongst reasons. Now I feel all smart (at least for a while until my next duh moment).
really underrated channel. ...deserve more subscribers
Love your channel, learning a lot from you keep those videos coming, lot of respect, sincerely
I just found this channel recently but I wanna say it’s awesome. Your videos are amazing please keep up the good work!
Thank you, Sir! Love your work!
An excellent video! I just asked an aftermarket supplier for parts to a popular Detroit V-8 what it would take to run the engine upside down - beyond having a dry sump, he mentioned oil pickups in both valve covers and in the crankcase breather cavity.
But it's possible, and would make maintenance on a plane I'm Imagineering easier, as well as lowering the CG...
A Detroit powered plane would be something to hear lol
Hi Greg, as usual, outstanding presentation - as an engineer and former Navy pilot, I learned lot. Thank you for your very informative collection of vintage aircraft/car presentations, Cioa, L (Veteran)
Greg, you do the best ww2 aircraft videos in the web.
Thank you so much!!
“A heavy tank like a tiger 1 can be very effective on the battlefield. But what if you can’t get it to the battlefield... then you have no tank which is not good”
Subbing for that dry, witty comment alone. Great content, speech, pace, information, and presentation. Keep up the good work Greg!
Such an awesome channel! Thank you!
Well thought out. Well laid out. Well presented. And I like your logic! Great work.
I always learn something new watching your videos. Very well presented and enlightening stuff.
It made sense for the allied engine manufacturers to produce upright V12s as that was what they had already and they would be easier to adapt to other uses as you said. When developing their aircraft the Germans were working from a clean slate and aircraft engines were designed specifically for aircraft so those advantages (vis and maint) were worth it.
Thanks Barton, always nice to see you here.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Always good to be here. Love your videos. Always very good information.
The Allison brothers got their start racing cars and refurbishing and modifying Liberty V12's for racing. They moved to Indianapolis to be close to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. In 1929 the USAAC wanted a aircraft engine capable of operating at high altitude and making 1,000hp. Allison brothers used their experience building racing V12's and produced the Allison's V-1710. The Great Depression slowed development down but in April 1937 Allisons V1710 C-6 completed testing and was rated at 1,000hp at the required altitude.
I have read that Allisons was able to obtain a contract that any USAAC aircraft built with a V12 had to use a Allison V12. The only exception was the P-51. The Merlin engined P-51 gave such a boost in performance, especially at altitude, that it could not be ignored and was immediately ordered into production.
You cant compare a Tiger to a Sherman. two different tanks designed for to very different roles.
The Tiger developed from the 1938 Durchbruchswagen, basically a break through tank. It was designed to be deployed, punch a hole in the lines, be pulled back and serviced and readied for next assault. In that role it was very effective. When Germany started losing break through tank turned into "Fire Brigade" tank unit that was rushed from spot to spot along the front to counter attack a enemy breakthrough. The problem was while Tiger unit was plugging this hole in the line the Soviets were breaking through at two or more other places along the line.
The Tiger was also very good in its defensive role. But when your constantly outnumbered ( 1,347 Tiger I's versus 60,000 T-34's and 55,000 Shermans), constantly forced to withdraw so you dont get your maintenance time attrition constantly wears those numbers down. Add to this a German logistics system obsessed with producing more tanks and no spare parts then you see the readiness numbers constantly go down as tanks were cannibalized of parts to keep other tanks running.
Panther is a whole different bag of apples.
A few house further where I live there is an engine restoration company and there is a DB-605 engine, from a crashed BF109, sitting ready for restauration. I have to say it is an impressive engine
Well done. Very informative and well researched. A breath of fresh air on RUclips.
I enjoy airplane history. I am also an audio buff. Your voice and tone and sound dynamics, articulation and clarity are beyond amazing!
This is great to watch and very informative even for someone with only basic knowledge of airplanes and engines
EngineNerd451 p
EngineNerd451 mouse
Can't get enough of it! Great job! Very informative.
Very well done and researched, had never heard of a inverted engine.
Fascinating, well-researched, and really good presentation. Subscribing.
It may as well have helped with noise levels in the cockpit. Short pipes on 1000 + horsepower engine must have meant almost unbearable noise levels causing deafness in pilots
That certainly makes sense. Noise gets very fatiguing.
Really nice point, actually that reminds me that at least two pilots who have flown Buchon (Upright Merlin) and original Bf 109 G (Inverted DB605), complain the noise is considerably louder and much worser in Buchon due to packaging of the engine configuration, as well as the engine exhausts being higher and closer to the pilot.
Good one!, I like to hear about ww2 many and varied developments.
Excellent video and plausible reasoning. Thank you. I was left wondering which was first, inverted V engines and then specifications requiring them or vice versa.
Nice video! Thanks for creating and posting it.
This is probably the ONLY pro-maintenance as opposed to anti-maintenance decision on German equipment during all of WW2.
Another excellent video. I would be very interested in a similar comparative discussion of sleeve vs poppet valve aviation engines, , especially inclusive of the Napier Sabre and Bristol Centaurus on the sleeve valve side. Happy to support you via Patreon and encourage others to as well.
I do want to cover the sleeve valve engines. I think those might have proven to be the way forward had the turbine engine not showed up on the scene. The potential of that design is massive.
Mmm8
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
I think that with an aircraft engine in wartime another factor to consider is manufacturing hours. How any manhours to build a RR Griffon vs a Sabre. With the sleeve valve you effectively doubling or triping your manufacturing time per cylinder with all of the machining operations required
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobilesSleeve valve engines suffer badly from cold starting 'stickiness' of the sleeve assembly and the gear train comes under enormous loads if the engine hasn't been run for a while. Modern lubricants might solve this, but the complication of design and manufacture has always favoured the simplicity of poppet valves in a separate head assembly. See old BMW flat twin engines from the '70's !
@@jimlambert1398 I think the sleeve valve only really pays off in multi-row radials where it isn't practical to fit more than 2 poppet valves per cylinder.
RUclips just recommended this channel, I subbed right away, can't wait to see more :)
Your honesty and knowledge is awesome. thank you for anawesome 19min. appreciatied.
Two informative videos in one day! A wonderful late birthday gift.
The better view over the nose with the Inverted-V is very apparent and advantageous to those who can fight well. Indeed in IL2 the view over the nose between the 109s and the Spitfires is telling and very handy for aces like IL2 pilots like Arianne Scharfi, who can use it to help pull great deflection shots.
But the other factors in maintanance are new to me and logical. Despite the downsides of dealing with the increased possibility of hydraulic lock from pooling fluids.
Informative stuff as always. Great work.
One tiny correction, the British Crusader tank used the Liberty engine. The Meteor was used primarily in the British Cromwell and Comet cruiser tanks during the war.
Tank and AFV News
I was about to post exactly the same correction, with almost the same wording, when I saw your post.
The problems associated with the Liberty V12 made the Crusader unreliable in the Desert, and this experience caused the Meteor-engined Cromwell to be preferred over the Liberty-engined Cavalier and Centaur tanks that were otherwise fairly similar.
Top notch content. Thanks Greg.
great work greg .u know what i love about your channel accurate info
always glad to see il-2 pictures and references. I love flying in that game.
As promised!! :D
Thank you Greg!!
You're welcome!
This is an excellent channel. Greg is really a bright guy who knows his stuff. Excellent, excellent channel.
Excellent analysis, Thank you Greg.
sir, i had killed my hobby of reading on ww2 and 1 military history and industrial history. you have given it a new lease of life.
2:55
when did aircraft start using duel overhead cam instead of single?
Good work Greg. Thank you.
Rich.
Looking forward to having a read of Taylor's "Aircraft Propulsion", good stuff!
The chieftain makes this exact same point about tanks.
That's good to hear. I know who that is! I'll have to watch his videos.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles When you were describing the logistics issues that effected the Sherman's design, I thought you HAD watched his video. You hit all the same points.
@@Mishn0 -- That might be, but Germans took into account bridges limits, that is why originally their tanks weight only 18 tons, then 24, and every time weight limit increased the number of places where Panzers can go decreased, so they were aware of bridge and logistic limitations...
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
The Ford GA series of V-8s and 12s originate from the Ford V-1650 designed from the start for aircraft use.
@@RussianThunderrr the Germans built most of their tanks for Ford rivers, but they didn't have to worry about transport besides train width. The US had to fit their tanks on ships and amphibious landing craft
I've also read that a reason they went with the inverted engines, is because the civilian engines which were available at that time (Argus, if i remember correctly) were a good starting point for developing military grade engines. And those civilian engines happened to be inverted. Although i dont have any proper sources to back up such claim.
Enjoyed that information and analysis. Well done 👍
wow, some very interesting points made.
1st time to channel & subbed Pronto, good work Greg !