I'm quite used to out of the world Idil Biret performances, so no surprise 😂 She has been a distance teacher to me, with her 130 recorded albums. I could only meet her in person in 2012 after a recital in Sala São Paulo.
I beg to differ: it has been disregarded as a _real piece_ for reason. Chopin really wrote two sonatas. B flat being this ultimate masterpiece. However I always opted for playing and performing B minor sonata.
@@mv848 well the b flat minor and b minor are both absolute masterpieces. I personally prefer op58 (b minor). The op 35 is known bc of the funeral march, but i dont think the rest of the sonata is better known than the b minor. This sonata is regarded as a lesser sonata as it has many passages which are really hard even for very experienced pianists. The 2nd ans 3rd are very juvenile and different from the 2 outer mvts. The 4 mvts dont stick together like for the 2nd and 3rd sonatas.
@AS-gy5wn Nonsense. They include plenty of Mazurkas and Nocturnes and Polonaises which are significantly easier than this. Also it's not far easier, just a tad bit. Henle gives this an 8 out of 9 and the other sonatas an 9 out of 9. By comparison, all Polonaises except the Polonaise-Fantaisie and the op. 53 are ranked below 8 and none of the Nocturnes ranks above a 7. Other works below this rating are most of the Scherzi, all of the Rondos, and the Fantasie. Other works of the same difficulty are the first 3 Ballades and the Barcarolle. All of them are competition repertoire. The reason it's not included in the competition repertoire is because it's regarded as one of Chopin's more forgettable compositions and because it's not part of the standard piano repertoire.
Apart from the slow movement being in 5/4, other unusual features are: the exposition of the first movement stays in C minor without the usual modulation, and equally unusual, the recapitulation is in B flat minor rather than C minor.
it's actually not necessarily about the meter. there are plenty of examples of how meters like 5/4, 7/4 or even prime numbers like 11/8 or 13/8 sound "natural". Also there are plenty of examples of how meters like 4/4, 2/4 or 6/4 sound quite unnatural. Try listening to Tchaikovsky's 2nd movement of the 6th symphony which is 5/4 or Don't You Know by Jacob Collier which is 7/4 and 5/4.
Chopin adored Johann Sebastian Bach and played every day "Das Wohltemperierte Klavier". Bach's influence is not that obvious as in Brahms or Schumann. In this sonata, though, Bach gives Chopin a friendly hand. I like this c minor sonata very much. Thank you so much for uploading this rarely played gem.
The Larghetto in 5/4 has been written many years before the Allegro con grazia in 5/4 of Tchaikovsky 6th Symphony (the 2nd movement). Here things are very different, a slow movement, much slower. Before Chopin, Anton Reicha, contemporary of Beethoven, used this metre in the last movement of his "Quatuor scientifique" (Allegro un poco vivo). In the 18th century, we have the few 5/8 bars in Handel's "Orlando", on the words "Già solco l'onde".
A sonata that harkens the days of young Chopin competing with Moscheles and Kalkbrenner with friends like Herz and Henselt, freshly inspired by Hummel (so much so), who was a direct descendant of Mozart. Along with the rondos, often forgotten. I love this Chopin, as impressed was Schumann or Liszt.
@@Tijaxtolan Well, I can talk to you about that now, I would recommend listening to all the mazurkas because they are priceless gems, and researching all Chopin's songs that aren't talked about a lot, like Chopin's Cello Sonata In G Minor, it's amazing and I plan to post it soon because it's a masterpiece that gets very little commented on.
Love the piece. I kinda get why it's underplayed. But it's Chopin nonetheless, part of his journey. Should be cherished and valued. I think I prefer Lilya Zilberstein's rendition, but Biret is impeccable as well. Thanks for the upload (y)
I always felt like he took a cadential excerpt from one of Mozart signature features, a four note chromatic rise, and made an entire sonata movement out of it. The second movement is a delight. An exercise in imitative counterpoint and inversions, but so melodic nonetheless.
Did Chopin write anything else in 5/4? I can't think of any other pieces in his output in quintuple time at all. Odd that he would write a piece in 5/4 early in his career then never do it again.
When a virtuoso is a composer too, sometimes the music takes a back seat to pyrotechnics. Same with Rachmaninov. But you don't see this with Beethoven or Brahms because the intellect behind the music always stays in charge. In Chopin's variations for example, it is mainly brilliant decoration whereas the Germans vary the theme itself in all kinds of ways. (I do not say this to disparage Chopin as he is truly a genius. But sometimes. when Chopin uses classical structures they are more like fantasias and one wonders where are the actual themes....). For a similar reason, most of Tchaikovsky's symphonies are more like suites. Composers who are brilliant melodists cannot usually build imposing and unified structures.
About refinements of his sonatas... To me only his 3rd is refined, well structured. So if the unbalanced 2nd is played often, why not 1st too? In those 3 pianists composers friends in the romanticism, among Alkan, Chopin and Liszt, only Alkan was good at large classical forms. Chopin is much more comfortable in his scherzi and ballades, and Liszt was inventing new modern forms.
El Finale es de una densidad y fuerza increíble como una fuente de agua alguna similitud en partes con las sonatas de Beethoven sobre todo por la persistencia de las rítmicas
I have NO idea why this sonata is hardly ever played! It's even left out of the Chopin Competition....as they only list #2 and #3 as competition sonatas. It really is underrated!
@@FelipeFerreira7 I highly recommend listening to Garrick Ohlsson's recording of the first Sonata.....I haven't seen it on RUclips....maybe I'll upload it ...it is a miraculous and virtuosic reading of the first Sonata....in my opinion the best out there. Idil Biret's was great ....and RUclips also has Ashkenazi's and Leif's....which are both great as well...but Garrick's recording is incredible....it will completely change your perception of this sonata. It's worth the listen!!!
Might be because this is quite a bit easier. In my opinion it’s not as exciting either. It’s still great and I agree it should be played more and honestly I prefer it to Schumann’s sonatas but the bflat and b minor Chopin sonatas are really out of this world good.
@@enigmas6210it’s interesting to see the comment about Garrick Ohlsson’s. He is coming to Sydney and playing this and cos I’ve never heard of sonata 1, I was searching RUclips to listen it. Well I should definitely should go and see his recital then. Thank you for recommendation!
I like how the second movement is written in a canonic manner. Schumann would have been impressed (he loved canons). Also, the second theme in the first section of the Minuet makes use of the rhythmic motif (the triplet) that ends the first theme. Beethoven liked to make good use of rhythmic motifs. The second and fourth movements sound like Germanic classical music, overall (Beethoven and Schubert maybe?)
Though it's not the most ingeniously written or original work by Chopin, it nonetheless foreshadows his future music and his immense talent at such a young age
Great one, I really like this sonata, although it's not my favourite tho, I like the 3rd more than the other two, so I would like to see a video of it, also I want to suggest the interpretation of Pogorelich or Seoing Jin Cho (they are very very different form each other). Another thing that I would like to say is the audio is quite loudly for me in this video a little bit noisy, hope you improve the next time. Love it anyway and +1 sub from me, keep the great progress up!
Yes. The reason it was assigned the opus number 4 was that it was submitted and accepted for publication. (I think it was Haslinger) Either Chopin or Haslinger. Made the decision not to publish it, as his style had matured so quickly - compare this work to the Rondo a la Mazur, op. 5 and the Mazurkas of op. 6 and 7. This was a student work, written during his studies with Elster. In terms of overall quality, it does not compare to the other two sonatas.
Did this beautiful though not typically chopinesque sonata have an impact on young Brahms? Brahms may have known the piece through the Schumanns. Anyways: 18 year old Chopin here tries to be Beethoven and what´s amazing: he nearly succeeds. No way could ignore he Beethovens monumental 32. The "Menuett" is really a scherzo inspired by Beethovens Scherzi. The Finale as well has much of Beethovens gusto while 3. movement in 5/4 is the most unique movement in this beautiful but not very chopiniesque sonata.
@@FelipeFerreira7 Sadly we cannot ask him. But given that Beethoven in 1828 was the gamechanging composer fo those days, how could Chopin actually not know at least part of his ouvre for the Fortepiano?
I wouldn't say that it's a bad sonata. In Chopin's standard, yeah, an inmature work; but a bad sonata? I would say that it's pretty experimental, specially the third move, which is pretty interesting. Overall this sonata would be a 6/10.
My least favourite Chopin piece is his Bouree No 2 as it doesn’t really have musical value. This is my 3rd favourite behind his other sonatas due to its length, immense complexity, uniqueness, melody line, and beauty. I can imagine how you can find this unchopanistic, but how on Earth can you ever say this is his WORST piece? You clearly have no taste.
i read comments.. but.. no one said, what an amazing performance !
It truly is!
I'm quite used to out of the world Idil Biret performances, so no surprise 😂
She has been a distance teacher to me, with her 130 recorded albums. I could only meet her in person in 2012 after a recital in Sala São Paulo.
If it had been less known composer who wrote this piece, this definitely would have been a masterpiece...
One of the most underrated Chopin pieces!
Unfortunately
Agree!!!
I beg to differ: it has been disregarded as a _real piece_ for reason. Chopin really wrote two sonatas. B flat being this ultimate masterpiece.
However I always opted for playing and performing B minor sonata.
@@mv848 well the b flat minor and b minor are both absolute masterpieces. I personally prefer op58 (b minor). The op 35 is known bc of the funeral march, but i dont think the rest of the sonata is better known than the b minor.
This sonata is regarded as a lesser sonata as it has many passages which are really hard even for very experienced pianists. The 2nd ans 3rd are very juvenile and different from the 2 outer mvts. The 4 mvts dont stick together like for the 2nd and 3rd sonatas.
@AS-gy5wn Nonsense. They include plenty of Mazurkas and Nocturnes and Polonaises which are significantly easier than this. Also it's not far easier, just a tad bit. Henle gives this an 8 out of 9 and the other sonatas an 9 out of 9. By comparison, all Polonaises except the Polonaise-Fantaisie and the op. 53 are ranked below 8 and none of the Nocturnes ranks above a 7.
Other works below this rating are most of the Scherzi, all of the Rondos, and the Fantasie.
Other works of the same difficulty are the first 3 Ballades and the Barcarolle. All of them are competition repertoire.
The reason it's not included in the competition repertoire is because it's regarded as one of Chopin's more forgettable compositions and because it's not part of the standard piano repertoire.
Apart from the slow movement being in 5/4, other unusual features are: the exposition of the first movement stays in C minor without the usual modulation, and equally unusual, the recapitulation is in B flat minor rather than C minor.
It says something about Chopin's skills that he can make 5/4 sound so natural
YES
I think his secret was to compose music by playing it before putting on paper.
Also Biret's skills. I've tried to play it and it hurts my brain.
it's actually not necessarily about the meter. there are plenty of examples of how meters like 5/4, 7/4 or even prime numbers like 11/8 or 13/8 sound "natural". Also there are plenty of examples of how meters like 4/4, 2/4 or 6/4 sound quite unnatural. Try listening to Tchaikovsky's 2nd movement of the 6th symphony which is 5/4 or Don't You Know by Jacob Collier which is 7/4 and 5/4.
@@aktasluna 5 and 7 are prime numbers too
Chopin adored Johann Sebastian Bach and played every day "Das Wohltemperierte Klavier". Bach's influence is not that obvious as in Brahms or Schumann. In this sonata, though, Bach gives Chopin a friendly hand. I like this c minor sonata very much. Thank you so much for uploading this rarely played gem.
What? Bach's influence is very obvious in Brahms. He uses dense counterpoint in his large scale works all the time.
Wow, this was actually very interesting to listen/watch. Didn't expect 3rd and 4th movenment to be this good.
Sadly this wonderful piece isnt as famous and often played as the other Chopin Sonatas. Wonderfull played.
The Larghetto in 5/4 has been written many years before the Allegro con grazia in 5/4 of Tchaikovsky 6th Symphony (the 2nd movement). Here things are very different, a slow movement, much slower. Before Chopin, Anton Reicha, contemporary of Beethoven, used this metre in the last movement of his "Quatuor scientifique" (Allegro un poco vivo). In the 18th century, we have the few 5/8 bars in Handel's "Orlando", on the words "Già solco l'onde".
Legend Turkish pianist İdil Biret... Amazing performance...
I've never heard this piece of Chopin before. It's beautiful!
So much
A sonata that harkens the days of young Chopin competing with Moscheles and Kalkbrenner with friends like Herz and Henselt, freshly inspired by Hummel (so much so), who was a direct descendant of Mozart. Along with the rondos, often forgotten. I love this Chopin, as impressed was Schumann or Liszt.
Yes!
Would you edit your comment and recommend us all some pieces of this chopin? Would be lovely.
@@Tijaxtolan Well, I can talk to you about that now, I would recommend listening to all the mazurkas because they are priceless gems, and researching all Chopin's songs that aren't talked about a lot, like Chopin's Cello Sonata In G Minor, it's amazing and I plan to post it soon because it's a masterpiece that gets very little commented on.
@@FelipeFerreira7 Thank you! : )
Śliczności mogła bym słuchać bez końca❤❤❤❤
Those triplets on the minuet are ridiculously difficult to play
Of course
Written by an 18 year-old boy... unbelievable!!
I hear Op,35 Sonata no.2 as Chopin’s “earliest sonata “ I knew, but I was always like: “Where’s Sonata no,1?”
It's a sonata in the previous romantic period like, the transition
Sonata No. 2 was the first to be published since Chopin made this one Op. 4 but never published it. It was then published as Op. 4 posthumously
I like the first movement, it sounds so mysterious, like a fairytale
Amazing Performance! Beautifully played!
Love the piece. I kinda get why it's underplayed. But it's Chopin nonetheless, part of his journey. Should be cherished and valued.
I think I prefer Lilya Zilberstein's rendition, but Biret is impeccable as well.
Thanks for the upload (y)
Ashkenazy isn't bad as well
I always felt like he took a cadential excerpt from one of Mozart signature features, a four note chromatic rise, and made an entire sonata movement out of it. The second movement is a delight. An exercise in imitative counterpoint and inversions, but so melodic nonetheless.
So very enjoyable, many thanks.
You're welcome
Did Chopin write anything else in 5/4? I can't think of any other pieces in his output in quintuple time at all. Odd that he would write a piece in 5/4 early in his career then never do it again.
I don't think he wrote something else
Just so people understand you are referring to the third movement.
When a virtuoso is a composer too, sometimes the music takes a back seat to pyrotechnics. Same with Rachmaninov. But you don't see this with Beethoven or Brahms because the intellect behind the music always stays in charge. In Chopin's variations for example, it is mainly brilliant decoration whereas the Germans vary the theme itself in all kinds of ways. (I do not say this to disparage Chopin as he is truly a genius. But sometimes. when Chopin uses classical structures they are more like fantasias and one wonders where are the actual themes....). For a similar reason, most of Tchaikovsky's symphonies are more like suites. Composers who are brilliant melodists cannot usually build imposing and unified structures.
Agreed
I really love this
About refinements of his sonatas... To me only his 3rd is refined, well structured. So if the unbalanced 2nd is played often, why not 1st too?
In those 3 pianists composers friends in the romanticism, among Alkan, Chopin and Liszt, only Alkan was good at large classical forms. Chopin is much more comfortable in his scherzi and ballades, and Liszt was inventing new modern forms.
A truly masterwork
Of course
Brilliant
The 4th mvt is the star of the sonata in my opinion!
The 4th and the 2nd
For sure!
El Finale es de una densidad y fuerza increíble como una fuente de agua alguna similitud en partes con las sonatas de Beethoven sobre todo por la persistencia de las rítmicas
sí
ty for upload
1st mov kinda slaps ngl
I have NO idea why this sonata is hardly ever played! It's even left out of the Chopin Competition....as they only list #2 and #3 as competition sonatas. It really is underrated!
yes
@@FelipeFerreira7 I highly recommend listening to Garrick Ohlsson's recording of the first Sonata.....I haven't seen it on RUclips....maybe I'll upload it ...it is a miraculous and virtuosic reading of the first Sonata....in my opinion the best out there. Idil Biret's was great ....and RUclips also has Ashkenazi's and Leif's....which are both great as well...but Garrick's recording is incredible....it will completely change your perception of this sonata. It's worth the listen!!!
Might be because this is quite a bit easier. In my opinion it’s not as exciting either. It’s still great and I agree it should be played more and honestly I prefer it to Schumann’s sonatas but the bflat and b minor Chopin sonatas are really out of this world good.
@@enigmas6210it’s interesting to see the comment about Garrick Ohlsson’s. He is coming to Sydney and playing this and cos I’ve never heard of sonata 1, I was searching RUclips to listen it. Well I should definitely should go and see his recital then. Thank you for recommendation!
@@enigmas6210 Can you please upload it? I would love to hear it but cannot find it on RUclips. He’s such a great pianist
Many thanks, I enjoy a lot :)
You're welcome
2:44 is such a great development section
12:50 Does anyone knows if Nocturne Op 32 no 2 was quoting this passage?
I like how the second movement is written in a canonic manner. Schumann would have been impressed (he loved canons). Also, the second theme in the first section of the Minuet makes use of the rhythmic motif (the triplet) that ends the first theme. Beethoven liked to make good use of rhythmic motifs. The second and fourth movements sound like Germanic classical music, overall (Beethoven and Schubert maybe?)
I love the third movement and I hope I can play it someday ❤
You can
If this was published after Chopin's death so why it isn't op. Post?
An interesting piano sonata. The rhythms seem complicated or is it the phrasing.
the opening of movement 2 is stuck in my head
In mine too
Oh no now in mine as well
Though it's not the most ingeniously written or original work by Chopin, it nonetheless foreshadows his future music and his immense talent at such a young age
Too underrated 😢
It's at the same level of other his sonatas for me
The main motive in the first mvt somewhat reminds me of Scarlatti k1 first mtove
might be from BWV 773, its relation with its imitation in the bass (b. 2) is structurally similar as well
Scarlatti sonatas only have ONE movement!! What are you talking about?
*first motive* did I mean to say
@@kofiLjunggren Lmao I can't believe you replied after several months.
@@yuk_notkim7658 Hahah yes
Great one, I really like this sonata, although it's not my favourite tho, I like the 3rd more than the other two, so I would like to see a video of it, also I want to suggest the interpretation of Pogorelich or Seoing Jin Cho (they are very very different form each other). Another thing that I would like to say is the audio is quite loudly for me in this video a little bit noisy, hope you improve the next time. Love it anyway and +1 sub from me, keep the great progress up!
Thanks for the idea but I don't do separate motion videos but I'll think about it anyway
The audio quality isn't Felipe's fault. All of Biret's recordings sound like this.
Tocar como quem brinca assim fazia, às vezes, Nelson Freire, o som q tirava do piano só ele mesmo conseguia Divino
Era extremamente e completamente divino, eu vou tentar fazer mais vídeos dele, ele é um dos meus favoritos não tem como não ser também
Is this the only posthumous work that has an opus number below 65?
yes
Yes. The reason it was assigned the opus number 4 was that it was submitted and accepted for publication. (I think it was Haslinger) Either Chopin or Haslinger. Made the decision not to publish it, as his style had matured so quickly - compare this work to the Rondo a la Mazur, op. 5 and the Mazurkas of op. 6 and 7. This was a student work, written during his studies with Elster. In terms of overall quality, it does not compare to the other two sonatas.
The finale sounds like the motif is taken from the muffin man
Esse presto finale deve ficar bom se tocado no órgão.
Last movement sound like Beethoven
my first version that I heard of this sonata was that of Biret. it is not very interpreted ... and it is very difficult ... greetings!
Did this beautiful though not typically chopinesque sonata have an impact on young Brahms? Brahms may have known the piece through the Schumanns. Anyways: 18 year old Chopin here tries to be Beethoven and what´s amazing: he nearly succeeds. No way could ignore he Beethovens monumental 32. The "Menuett" is really a scherzo inspired by Beethovens Scherzi. The Finale as well has much of Beethovens gusto while 3. movement in 5/4 is the most unique movement in this beautiful but not very chopiniesque sonata.
A fun fact, is that chopin didn't know Beethoven's music at this time
@@FelipeFerreira7 Sadly we cannot ask him. But given that Beethoven in 1828 was the gamechanging composer fo those days, how could Chopin actually not know at least part of his ouvre for the Fortepiano?
Обожаю эту сонату. Играла её,учась в консерватории. Но это исполнение не понравилось.
If you look very closely, THIS was the real beginnings of jazz and rock n’roll!
Maybe
@@FelipeFerreira7 not maybe….DEFINITELY, ok?
@@HelloooThere rather Beethoven's 32nd
@@karoldettlaff5345 ok I don’t know it but will see for his 32nd symphony ok
@@HelloooThere 32nd piano sonata ;)
Personally It sounds like bach at first
A little bit
Definitely! There’s a lot of inspiration taken from Chopin’s favorite composer.
Recorder in NAXOX
He composed this piece to teach his students...sonata n°2 & 3 however is a different story, Obviously
He did not compose this piece to teach his students. There's no documentation that he ever performed it, and he never wanted it published.
А вы уверены,что это Шопен?очень странная музыка...
Подросток Шопен, это может быть совсем не странно, по крайней мере, на мой взгляд.
Good playing a bad sonata, short after Chopin become my favorite composer.
it isn't a bad sonata
I wouldn't say that it's a bad sonata. In Chopin's standard, yeah, an inmature work; but a bad sonata? I would say that it's pretty experimental, specially the third move, which is pretty interesting. Overall this sonata would be a 6/10.
@@OscarLanuzaUrrutia Yes, and maybe an important experiment.
The work a year after are just great op.7/9/10....
Chopin's worst piece
no bro, no
My least favourite Chopin piece is his Bouree No 2 as it doesn’t really have musical value. This is my 3rd favourite behind his other sonatas due to its length, immense complexity, uniqueness, melody line, and beauty. I can imagine how you can find this unchopanistic, but how on Earth can you ever say this is his WORST piece? You clearly have no taste.
No. His first pieces and variations are much more superficial. This last movement rocks!
Nah, this is actually one of my favorite Chopin pieces
Nahhh, where's the swing?? i don't really like this performance
This is Chopin not jazz, it claims for rubato not swing.