What? A Shardcast episode that is less than 90 minutes? How rare! Also. Diceborn season two when? Please tell me it’s soon… Edit: Finally got to the end of the episode. Ben did actually say it was coming “soon”. And I already have been rewatching sisg and season 1 on repeat, but the rewatching s1 just makes me more impatient😂. That cliffhanger makes me mad in a good way every time.
I blame the short episode on Argent. No show-and-tell or 15 minute tangents before the episode even begins. It was kind of shocking how quickly they started into the episode this time. PS... Not a critique of Evgeni, I love the chaos he can bring to the group.
I came out of the book believing she was getting more invested over time. There is a quote about how every time a spirit fulfills her request it takes something from her that eventually grows back. To me this very much sounds like the process of building muscles or bone density. If a spiritweb is a container for investiture imagine it being drained and refilled over and over and stretching a little bit each time. It never made any sense to me for the Yoki-hijo to be Elantrian level power when their only job was to call spirits. She is so powerful because of the 1700 years. IMO the Brandon WoB 100% confirms this. I don't think the invested at birth thing is even true. I think the people choosing the baby via whatever means gives them a connection to the spirit, and through their training they grow more powerful. The having it at birth thing from the text isn't from Hoid, it's from Yumi. It's based on how she believes it works, not necessarily how it actually works.
There could also be something with the way the Father Machine is blanking their memories. Brandon specifically mentions that unlike in other cases the memories are not being destroyed or removed. They are being overwritten. The small amount of investiture needed to do this may have built up over the millennia.
I don't think there's any textual evidence that she's gaining investiture over time, evidence that she had that amount of investiture at birth. My pet theory is that yokihijo are born with slightly more investiture than the average person, and that gives them the ability to commune with the spirits. And the act of commuting with the spirits leave some residual investiture. Normally this amount wouldn't be significant, over the course of a regular lifespan. But in the 1700 years of hurricane any more skill, she's building up more investiture. If this is the case, it's probably some sort of exponential curve, as with more skills she pulls more spirits which then leaves behind more investiture.
if Yumi (and the rest of the Yoki-hijo) were gaining investiture, then eventually their power would exceed the father-machine's ability to reset their memories would it not?
I believe there was a line in the books that for the entire thousand years, she didn’t actually draw any REAL spirits, only illusions to keep the act going. Only when she attained a certain level of skill was she able to draw one away from the father machine which plead with her to free them, and connected her to Painter. This disproves the theory of her siphoning power from the spirits over that time, I don’t think there was any evidence pointing to her increasing in investiture.
Related to the Raysium and Yumi discussion: What would a Raysium dagger do to a drab? What about a person with the Breath with which they were born? What about a single Breath, but which they acquired from someone else?
That's pretty hard to guess since we've only seen it used to move investiture that's in something else (like Spren in a gem or stormlight from a human). Here's my guess. We've seen that it just drains Stormlight from a stabbed Radiant and doesn't immediately suck up their soul. So either it will do nothing to a drab or to someone's innate Breath, or you have to stab them for much longer. Might also require a much larger gem. If it can draw out an innate Breath I still think it would stop at making someone a drab.
Nightblood at 4, also had Mare for the first question at 3 and was just as upset as Eric when it was wrong. Agree with Ian about Yumi becoming more invested over time.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like Brandon has said Dragonsteel is going to be the only first person pov Cosmere book which to me implies it's going to be from Hoid's pov. I could be misremembering or misinterpreting, but that's always been my understanding. EDIT: I think I found the WOB I was remembering, but there could be others. It's from the Legion Release Party on September 19, 2018. "Like, the first person book I'll do in the Cosmere, I probably won't do one until I do Hoid's book."
I agree with this sounding like it will be first person Hoid, but I think the distinction is, is this first person present tense, or first person past tense? It would be very different if Hoid is telling this as he is actively going through it, "I am doing this, I feel this way" vs "I did this, I felt that way". Hindsight and time to cope (or not cope) really change the perspective of the story.
First time watching one of these as it comes out! (Or within a day) Yall are my new background listening while between rereads of brandos work. But sometimes i just end up yelling at the screen cuz i have a different thought and i need opinions!
Small point but in one of the Dragonsteel WOBs i'm fairly certain that Brandon clarified about Silver that it doesn't destroy Investiture (only Anti-Investiture does that) but it disrupts investiture. His example was if you swiped silver through a pillar of sand that a Sand Master was using to move around, the pillar would disperse and the Sand Master would fall. But after that dispersal, they'd be able to manipulate the sand again. So it just sort of disrupts the magic that's happening.
I definitely read it the same as Eric! I think that yoki hijo at some point in the past were less invested and what could have changed was when Virtuosity splintered herself, it created more free investiture that was then imbued in all the yoki hijo since. Yumi didn’t get more invested than all the rest, she just became the most skilled of all time because of her 1700 years of experience.
I have wanted a fantasy world which actually operates under the principles of the four humors and astrology. Maybe that could tie into the disease magic.
For those of you on the cast that are currently beta reading for Wind and Truth, is it hard to have discussions about stormlight without spoiling or are most of these episodes filmed before you started reading to avoid accidental leaks?
39:03 I don't think Brandon is talking about the Heralds investiture levels after they were initially invested. He mentions the oaths before the Knights radiants, it's about when they first became Heralds and joined the Oathpact. The heralds varying in investiture is the variation between Heralds not the same Herald varying in investiture over time (with may be the exception of Nale coz he would get a boost from his Nahel bond).
The "Spirits" that Yumi drew were mostly fakes created by the shroud. The thing that was special that happened when she was connected to painter was that she actually managed to draw a real one. So she wouldn't have been interacting with spirits at all for most of the 1400 years. She could somehow have been siphoning extra investiture from the shroud or something, but the spirits were not making her more invested.
The Fused use raysium to take away Radiant's stormlight, but I doubt they can take away their innate inversiture (aka their soul) without wounding them to death, just like they did with Jezrien. For example, I doubt that having a raysium needle connected to a proberly big gemstone and stuck into your arm for hours woud have any effect. I think that, in order for raysium to take your soul, the bond with the body must be already being severed, and I would say that the Divine Breath is very connected to the soul (maybe it completely replaced the soul, according to Vasher). The Mother Machine and Nightblood are the two beings that certainly can take away every drop of investiture people are made of. BUT, you can permantly take away part of a regular person innate investiture if you use hemalurgy properly, even without killing them. So I'm not sure (however we must remember that raysium can be certainly used for hemalurgy with the proper intent).
Yokihijo becoming more powerful the better they become at art, and heralds becoming more powerful if they align to oaths both match up in terms of align yourself with your shards intent gives you more power, but this is news to me
First time I watched the initial logo frame by frame... I doubt it is just a coincidence that the arrow head break into 17 ...shards... and then re-mends itself with one of then yellow...
17:00 Silver is a metal know for very long. If it could kill spren, how coud they not know and still consider themselves immortal? 23:00 Sixteen - the Lord Ruler's son?
to that first point, he clarified in another WOB (i think during Dragonsteel) that a Spren hit with Silver would have a bad time but would not die. Silver disrupts investiture but doesn't destroy it, he clarified that in said WOB, idk why back during his interview with 17th Shard he seemingly said that Silver could destroy investiture
@@Apollo9898LP That in turn raises the question what happens if you ram an aluminium spike into a Spren. What is the difference between aluminim and silver at that point?
Rat skulls glow on Threnody because Brandon loves dark souls and in dark souls it's a lore point that rats have a chance to drop souls when killed because they are society's bottom feeders and so souls collect and pool at the very bottom.
Wouldn't the morbid origin of the ways off threnody be the death of Ambition. Like that investiture is scattered across the planet and allows for a bunch dynamic perpendicularities.
I get Eric's reasoning about Yumi's power levels, but Occam's razor tells me he's probably wrong. Being better at drawing and using investiture and being more invested often seem to go hand in hand in the Cosmere.
Im not sure but it it seems like you were all working off the idea that Therenodites turn into shades no matter what planet they die on. Was this definately confirmed? Because there also seemed to be some confusion about how it happens in sunlight man.
Ben, where is Diceborn. I need it. And i did went for Dockson partner after clue 3 (to be fair I went for her or Ham's wife so I would get it at clue 3 or 4) edit: ok I saw outro so i hope for that soon.
When you guys were talking about Silence Divine I had the thought that Stormlight, in a way, is a story about disease and sickness granting powers, only from the mental health / emotional aspect. The radiant spren are attracted to these people often because of the cracks in their spirit webs, but is there some lineage of arcana in the rosharan system that we can walk back to ashyn and the way that investiture is expressed through physical ailment? Idk just an interesting connection of two points in my head. Could be re-tooled into a signing/event question.
@@17thShard It is my theory based on the comment that older Yoki Hijo were less invested. So I surmise that when he said they have gained investiture over time that it was passed on to newer generations. Perhaps not all of it, but a larger part.
I still think silver should have been used in place of aluminum for the metallic arts. Silver destroying investiture works so much better for wiping Allomantic stores. Aluminum should just not react at all which in itself makes it important to the system.
Remember though, the metal is not the source of investiture, only the key to access it. Silver would have nothing to destroy in a Mistborn. Instead aluminum blocks access to the investiture other metals could provide.
@@solitaryrecluse7740 if the key is made of aluminum then the magic system shouldn’t even be able to recognize it. And aluminum doesn’t just block access to the investiture it destroys your stores of metal in your system.
@@obviousalias132 Now this part I can't prove, since I've never heard Brandon asked about it, but I don't believe Aluminum actually takes the other metals out of your body. They are still there, but simply unusable. In the analogy, aluminum plugs up the keyhole so that no other keys can be used. I wish we had more than 1 single example of aluminum allomancy in the entire cosmere. Ooh, I wonder if this explains how duralumin works. It's impure aluminum, so the plug is weak. When you draw another metal while burning duralumin the plug resists causing a pressure buildup that leads to all the investiture coming through at once.
Ignore my previous post, I looked up on Arcanum, and Brandon has confirmed that Aluminum does actually remove the metals themselves. Aluminum is weird.
@@solitaryrecluse7740 its described in book as wiping the stores from the body not just blocking access. And if it didn’t do that then the power doesn’t make sense in context as the person would just be able to burn their metals after the effects of aluminum wear off.
Idk about anyone else but I for one am loving the constant WOB episodes.
I read that thumbnail as "Last Words of Brandon" and just about had a heart attack
Same lol.
Long time no see Ben!
What? A Shardcast episode that is less than 90 minutes? How rare!
Also. Diceborn season two when? Please tell me it’s soon…
Edit: Finally got to the end of the episode. Ben did actually say it was coming “soon”. And I already have been rewatching sisg and season 1 on repeat, but the rewatching s1 just makes me more impatient😂. That cliffhanger makes me mad in a good way every time.
I blame the short episode on Argent. No show-and-tell or 15 minute tangents before the episode even begins. It was kind of shocking how quickly they started into the episode this time.
PS... Not a critique of Evgeni, I love the chaos he can bring to the group.
Am I losing my mind? Is there any textual evidence Yumi is literally becoming more Invested as the cycles continue? I am so baffled by this! -Eric
I came out of the book believing she was getting more invested over time. There is a quote about how every time a spirit fulfills her request it takes something from her that eventually grows back. To me this very much sounds like the process of building muscles or bone density. If a spiritweb is a container for investiture imagine it being drained and refilled over and over and stretching a little bit each time.
It never made any sense to me for the Yoki-hijo to be Elantrian level power when their only job was to call spirits. She is so powerful because of the 1700 years. IMO the Brandon WoB 100% confirms this.
I don't think the invested at birth thing is even true. I think the people choosing the baby via whatever means gives them a connection to the spirit, and through their training they grow more powerful. The having it at birth thing from the text isn't from Hoid, it's from Yumi. It's based on how she believes it works, not necessarily how it actually works.
There could also be something with the way the Father Machine is blanking their memories. Brandon specifically mentions that unlike in other cases the memories are not being destroyed or removed. They are being overwritten. The small amount of investiture needed to do this may have built up over the millennia.
I don't think there's any textual evidence that she's gaining investiture over time, evidence that she had that amount of investiture at birth. My pet theory is that yokihijo are born with slightly more investiture than the average person, and that gives them the ability to commune with the spirits. And the act of commuting with the spirits leave some residual investiture.
Normally this amount wouldn't be significant, over the course of a regular lifespan. But in the 1700 years of hurricane any more skill, she's building up more investiture. If this is the case, it's probably some sort of exponential curve, as with more skills she pulls more spirits which then leaves behind more investiture.
if Yumi (and the rest of the Yoki-hijo) were gaining investiture, then eventually their power would exceed the father-machine's ability to reset their memories would it not?
I believe there was a line in the books that for the entire thousand years, she didn’t actually draw any REAL spirits, only illusions to keep the act going. Only when she attained a certain level of skill was she able to draw one away from the father machine which plead with her to free them, and connected her to Painter.
This disproves the theory of her siphoning power from the spirits over that time, I don’t think there was any evidence pointing to her increasing in investiture.
I dont remember a time where Ben did Who's that Cosmere character and actually said "WTCC" instead of "WTTC" It's always funny 😂
Related to the Raysium and Yumi discussion: What would a Raysium dagger do to a drab? What about a person with the Breath with which they were born? What about a single Breath, but which they acquired from someone else?
That's pretty hard to guess since we've only seen it used to move investiture that's in something else (like Spren in a gem or stormlight from a human). Here's my guess. We've seen that it just drains Stormlight from a stabbed Radiant and doesn't immediately suck up their soul. So either it will do nothing to a drab or to someone's innate Breath, or you have to stab them for much longer. Might also require a much larger gem. If it can draw out an innate Breath I still think it would stop at making someone a drab.
Nightblood at 4, also had Mare for the first question at 3 and was just as upset as Eric when it was wrong. Agree with Ian about Yumi becoming more invested over time.
I’m catching up on episodes and so glad to see Ben back on the panel!
Looking forward to Yumi performing "Noodle shop of horrors" in the Cosmere musical.
Thanks!
Thank you!!! -Eric
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like Brandon has said Dragonsteel is going to be the only first person pov Cosmere book which to me implies it's going to be from Hoid's pov. I could be misremembering or misinterpreting, but that's always been my understanding.
EDIT: I think I found the WOB I was remembering, but there could be others. It's from the Legion Release Party on September 19, 2018. "Like, the first person book I'll do in the Cosmere, I probably won't do one until I do Hoid's book."
I agree with this sounding like it will be first person Hoid, but I think the distinction is, is this first person present tense, or first person past tense?
It would be very different if Hoid is telling this as he is actively going through it, "I am doing this, I feel this way" vs "I did this, I felt that way".
Hindsight and time to cope (or not cope) really change the perspective of the story.
Good point@@practicepositiveprogress5396
Yay more content 🎉
Omg Threnody is such a perfect setting for a survial horror game
I got nightblood before the cast. Could i get a compliment overlord?
First time watching one of these as it comes out! (Or within a day) Yall are my new background listening while between rereads of brandos work. But sometimes i just end up yelling at the screen cuz i have a different thought and i need opinions!
Ben is the true protagownist of this show
Small point but in one of the Dragonsteel WOBs i'm fairly certain that Brandon clarified about Silver that it doesn't destroy Investiture (only Anti-Investiture does that) but it disrupts investiture. His example was if you swiped silver through a pillar of sand that a Sand Master was using to move around, the pillar would disperse and the Sand Master would fall. But after that dispersal, they'd be able to manipulate the sand again. So it just sort of disrupts the magic that's happening.
50:01 painter also is connected to a shardblade… one who ran a noodle shop. Maybe they “helped”. Painter shares a lot of qualities with a Lightweaver
I definitely read it the same as Eric! I think that yoki hijo at some point in the past were less invested and what could have changed was when Virtuosity splintered herself, it created more free investiture that was then imbued in all the yoki hijo since. Yumi didn’t get more invested than all the rest, she just became the most skilled of all time because of her 1700 years of experience.
I have wanted a fantasy world which actually operates under the principles of the four humors and astrology. Maybe that could tie into the disease magic.
For those of you on the cast that are currently beta reading for Wind and Truth, is it hard to have discussions about stormlight without spoiling or are most of these episodes filmed before you started reading to avoid accidental leaks?
39:03 I don't think Brandon is talking about the Heralds investiture levels after they were initially invested. He mentions the oaths before the Knights radiants, it's about when they first became Heralds and joined the Oathpact. The heralds varying in investiture is the variation between Heralds not the same Herald varying in investiture over time (with may be the exception of Nale coz he would get a boost from his Nahel bond).
The "Spirits" that Yumi drew were mostly fakes created by the shroud. The thing that was special that happened when she was connected to painter was that she actually managed to draw a real one. So she wouldn't have been interacting with spirits at all for most of the 1400 years.
She could somehow have been siphoning extra investiture from the shroud or something, but the spirits were not making her more invested.
The Fused use raysium to take away Radiant's stormlight, but I doubt they can take away their innate inversiture (aka their soul) without wounding them to death, just like they did with Jezrien. For example, I doubt that having a raysium needle connected to a proberly big gemstone and stuck into your arm for hours woud have any effect. I think that, in order for raysium to take your soul, the bond with the body must be already being severed, and I would say that the Divine Breath is very connected to the soul (maybe it completely replaced the soul, according to Vasher).
The Mother Machine and Nightblood are the two beings that certainly can take away every drop of investiture people are made of.
BUT, you can permantly take away part of a regular person innate investiture if you use hemalurgy properly, even without killing them. So I'm not sure (however we must remember that raysium can be certainly used for hemalurgy with the proper intent).
I guess Night Blood correctly on Clue one.
They definitely say shades are drawn to the reliquaries post death, so i think new ones are being added
Yokihijo becoming more powerful the better they become at art, and heralds becoming more powerful if they align to oaths both match up in terms of align yourself with your shards intent gives you more power, but this is news to me
I was like “wait what star map” then noticed it’s literally Eric’s background.
Lol -Eric
First time I watched the initial logo frame by frame...
I doubt it is just a coincidence that the arrow head break into 17 ...shards... and then re-mends itself with one of then yellow...
YAY I got not not nightblood at clue 3!
17:00 Silver is a metal know for very long. If it could kill spren, how coud they not know and still consider themselves immortal?
23:00 Sixteen - the Lord Ruler's son?
to that first point, he clarified in another WOB (i think during Dragonsteel) that a Spren hit with Silver would have a bad time but would not die. Silver disrupts investiture but doesn't destroy it, he clarified that in said WOB, idk why back during his interview with 17th Shard he seemingly said that Silver could destroy investiture
@@Apollo9898LP That in turn raises the question what happens if you ram an aluminium spike into a Spren. What is the difference between aluminim and silver at that point?
Rat skulls glow on Threnody because Brandon loves dark souls and in dark souls it's a lore point that rats have a chance to drop souls when killed because they are society's bottom feeders and so souls collect and pool at the very bottom.
Wouldn't the morbid origin of the ways off threnody be the death of Ambition. Like that investiture is scattered across the planet and allows for a bunch dynamic perpendicularities.
I get Eric's reasoning about Yumi's power levels, but Occam's razor tells me he's probably wrong. Being better at drawing and using investiture and being more invested often seem to go hand in hand in the Cosmere.
I assumed the father machine somehow made the yoki-hijo more powerful when it was turned on
Im not sure but it it seems like you were all working off the idea that Therenodites turn into shades no matter what planet they die on. Was this definately confirmed? Because there also seemed to be some confusion about how it happens in sunlight man.
Ben, where is Diceborn. I need it. And i did went for Dockson partner after clue 3 (to be fair I went for her or Ham's wife so I would get it at clue 3 or 4)
edit: ok I saw outro so i hope for that soon.
I got Nightblood at clue 4.
No podcast on the new chapters released?
We are recording one soon! We recorded this the same weekend asC2E2. -Eric
Before I listen to this episode, to answer the title: wouldn't it be Sazed by default, since he holds two Shards?
When you guys were talking about Silence Divine I had the thought that Stormlight, in a way, is a story about disease and sickness granting powers, only from the mental health / emotional aspect. The radiant spren are attracted to these people often because of the cracks in their spirit webs, but is there some lineage of arcana in the rosharan system that we can walk back to ashyn and the way that investiture is expressed through physical ailment? Idk just an interesting connection of two points in my head. Could be re-tooled into a signing/event question.
I had nightblood at 4, VALIDATE ME!
I actually got Nightblood early! I never win WTCC!
Yoki Hijo inherit investiture from previous Yoki Hijo. That is why Yumi is more powerful.
Is that true? It's been a bit for me, but I'd love to see the quote on that. -Eric
@@17thShard It is my theory based on the comment that older Yoki Hijo were less invested. So I surmise that when he said they have gained investiture over time that it was passed on to newer generations. Perhaps not all of it, but a larger part.
I still think silver should have been used in place of aluminum for the metallic arts. Silver destroying investiture works so much better for wiping Allomantic stores. Aluminum should just not react at all which in itself makes it important to the system.
Remember though, the metal is not the source of investiture, only the key to access it. Silver would have nothing to destroy in a Mistborn. Instead aluminum blocks access to the investiture other metals could provide.
@@solitaryrecluse7740 if the key is made of aluminum then the magic system shouldn’t even be able to recognize it. And aluminum doesn’t just block access to the investiture it destroys your stores of metal in your system.
@@obviousalias132 Now this part I can't prove, since I've never heard Brandon asked about it, but I don't believe Aluminum actually takes the other metals out of your body. They are still there, but simply unusable. In the analogy, aluminum plugs up the keyhole so that no other keys can be used. I wish we had more than 1 single example of aluminum allomancy in the entire cosmere.
Ooh, I wonder if this explains how duralumin works. It's impure aluminum, so the plug is weak. When you draw another metal while burning duralumin the plug resists causing a pressure buildup that leads to all the investiture coming through at once.
Ignore my previous post, I looked up on Arcanum, and Brandon has confirmed that Aluminum does actually remove the metals themselves. Aluminum is weird.
@@solitaryrecluse7740 its described in book as wiping the stores from the body not just blocking access. And if it didn’t do that then the power doesn’t make sense in context as the person would just be able to burn their metals after the effects of aluminum wear off.
I said Nightblood a second before Eric.
2023. Also known as the year of WOBs
1:18:00
That's my first WTCC on Shardcast!
Good one.