Impressions: Pax Pamir, Rosetta, King's Dilemma
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- Today I discuss my initial impressions on the following games:
Introduction - 0:00
Pax Pamir 2nd Ed - 0:38
Rosetta: The Lost Language - 14:45
The King's Dilemma - 21:13
Remember you can listen to an audio version of this vlog at the JonGetsGames Podcast or by clicking this link: / impressions37
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Just watching the video 2 years later lol. I think it is important to mention one of the goals of Cole's design in PP 2E is the historical aspect, it is central to the experience. I'd like to think of that desperation of having to choose the lesser of evils is what a lot of local Afghans must have felt during the 19th century while trying to please 2 empires and local leaders
Listening to your views on the 1st and 3rd games, it made me think "huh, I wonder if games are getting to realistic for some" - meaning that in political life there isn't always a level of "perfect knowledge" of what is coming up and the "rich get richer" does happen (with sometimes sudden changes of fortune happening unexpectedly), and not that they are "perfect models of our real world".
Concerning _Pax Pamir_ 2E, one reason I liked 1E more is that there was more detail in actions (several actions were merged); and the original standard rules were total victory at a dominance check, with an empire being dominant or the game keeps going. The VP system with the double VP on final dominance check felt weird, and I like how in 1E if the game ends then the tiebreaker suit of army determines the winner. Still, the game is more like Twilight Struggle and CDG wargames - knowing the cards and their capabilities helps you make more informed decisions (but using a subset of cards also means you don't know that you can rely on a card showing up, unlike in Agricola where you _know_ all the possible actions and approximately when they happen but don't know _exactly_ when the actions come out).
Another thing I think that throws people for a loop on _Pax Pamir_ and all Sierra Madre Games Pax series titles is how you are equally trying to manipulate the victory condition and work towards it, more so in 1E. The catch is you need to watch your opponents and think about how you will undo their actions and progress towards victory. So you need to be working on getting as many empire pieces out while being most loyal, but you can't ignore getting your disks into the game in case someone foils your plan of dominance. Add in uncertainty on what that next card flip is, and you are constantly balancing going for a win versus balancing out your progress.
I think _Pax Pamir_ plays out like some Splotter games. In _Antiquity_ you need to be aware of the various victory conditions and what people wind up choosing to position themselves to go for; and in _Roads & Boats_ or _The Great Zimbabwe_ or _Food Chain Magnate_ the same thing happens. The difference is there is perfect information in those games; you know all the possible elements you can mix in a recipe for victory, while in _Pax Pamir_ you never know what the next card flip would bring. Of course, Splotters go 2.5+ hours typical and getting to 4-6 hours isn't unreasonable in larger player count games, while SMG Pax games you typically play 1-2 hours unless you get caught with AP.
Sorry the game wasn't enjoyable for you - but, hey, we can't all have the same choices. Also, even though you are a "professional gamer" you might want to look at the types of games you play. Do you jump into wargames and the heaviest of euros frequently (the "deep end" of the pool), do you stick to light filler styled games (the "kiddie pool"), or somewhere in the middle. From what I've seen of your reviews, you seem to lean slightly towards the lighter end of the spectrum but still central; what I would call lighter medium weight games. You also seem to prefer games that would fit into a game store meet up night, a 2-2.5 hour affair, rather than a weekend gamer meet up, a 6-12 hour affair. Maybe I am wrong and it is a biased filter of the videos I've seen of yours, but it is the impression I get of your play through. As a professional _reviewer_ of games, I think you have to tend towards lighter/faster more mass market level games; after all, do you really have time to learn the 200+ page rulebook for _A World At War_ and spend 24-48 _hours_ of _game play_ time for a single playthrough when you have to keep content coming out every day to couple of days? Is there really that much of a market to get paid to make a video on such a game? No. You need to still make money, and lighter/simpler games are more money; and much of your "professional gamer" time is transformed into reviews, so you must avoid the deep end of the pool if you want to stay economically viable. There is nothing wrong with this, it is just an observation on mass media and its inherent biases.
Great points, thanks for the response. I agree that I am a medium weight gamer primarily and this bias does have an effect on the games I choose and how I ultimately enjoy them. Interesting notes about the differences between 1st and 2nd edition, I didn't do research on it and assumed it was an aesthetic upgrade but it appears to be more then that.
That’s a lot of words. Pax, Antiquity etc etc are not for most. These appeal to folks like you and there are many many many people that will never wish to play these. Just like some people that like a Citroen car to those who would just go for a Toyota, Ford. None are wrong.
I do think there is a lot to explore in Pax Pamir, it is a game you can grow in. I do recognize that games who start to show more of their possibilities with more plays are not unproblematic. I think that is kind of a delightful aspect, but you need to be intrigued enough to get there, which they don't always do for all people. One might say that a lot of Cole's other games have that same problem, even if they might not make you feel like you are in the dark the first time you play.
Thanks Jon; fascinating insight into The Kings Dilemma. The concept sounds fantastic to me, but your experience seems to shed light on the game having some flaws in terms of balance / catch up .
Ah man, The King's Dilemma is a dream game of mine and my wives. Hope to get it on it's next printing.
Any man would be in a dream to have ONE wife that wants to play games with him... but you, my man, are the luckiest guy in the world if you have MORE THAN ONE who wants to!
Hey Jon,
Regarding the 'frustration' aspect of The King's Dilema: Any other games you've experienced this with?
I have certainly been frustrated in games in the past, but not quite like this frustration. That's due to this being a competitive campaign and the frustration was multiplied by feelings that I was slipping behind in a large multi-game experience whereas normally a game is over in an hour or two and the actions you were frustrated with no longer have an impact. I don't think I can really give examples that got me close to this type of frustration, sorry.
I'd love to see a current top10 list of yours
The other major problem with pax pamir is its exorbitant pricing. I have thought about it a few times, but not for $120 after shipping. This is for diehards only,
Wow, I had no idea it was that much!
Is it $120 now? I got it for $75 on Kickstarter and it was a freaking bargain at that price considering the components you get. Seriously, I've mostly made the switch to wargames now, and $80-$120 buys you two paper maps and 2-3 sheets of cardboard counters a lot of the time in that realm of gaming. Mostly the maps aren't even mounted. When I do break out Pax Pamir, I marvel at how gorgeous it is for the price. Would I pay $120 for it now? Not sure...but I'd probably convince myself to eventually because I'm a sucker for the Great Game period of history.
I'm glad you did the review of KD with spoilers. I briefly debated getting the game before it sold out, but was unsure about being able to actually get 6 or so willing players to commit to the campaign, especially ones that would buy into the style of game and one that looks so...I want to say proto-typey? I could get them to play one game of it, sure, but a whole campaign. Then the more I looked into the game the less interest I had, but I still wanted to know a bit more than people were giving me because of their adherence to not spoiling anything. Now I know for certain that I don't want to spend my money on this game, and when the game is as expensive as this, that's a very valid conclusion. So, thanks for not making me want to buy it, I guess haha
I'm glad you found this helpful. It's certainly not a game for everyone and after 17 plays I'm still not sure it was a game for me :P
I've bought king's dilemma and it seems like my perfect game but I can't find 3 or 4 other people that will consistently get together with me to play it. Hopefully that will change someday soon. Fingers crossed 🤞
Yeah, I hope you get to try it soon as well :)
Thanks for the video Jon. May I ask on which internet platform you play your games?
I mostly play on Tabletop Simulator.
@@JonGetsGames Thank you.
THE King's Dilemma is alphabetically categorized under T?!
Hehe, yeah I know that's a bit odd but it sort of counts and I wanted to keep that one for the end due to it having spoilery content at a certain point.
I'm one of the people that was surprised to hear you mention a lack of strategic play in Pax Pamir. But I would agree that on your first couple of plays, it is very difficult to formulate strategies. In fact I was not a fan after 2 games. It's now in my all-time top 5 though.
Knowing the cards helps and when there are four experienced players then the strategies (main ones being economic, alliances, spreading, allegiance control) are nuanced and take a fair amount of skill to win with. I'd really recommend giving it a few more tries with experienced players. Also - this game just doesn't play well virtually (imo). Our group are big fans, this is a top three game for us and we didn't really enjoy the virtual medium.
Thanks for comment, I do think I'll make sure to give this a shot in person once that's a possibility again. A good friend owns a copy so that shouldn't be too hard.
I don't really like the whole "If you play it a few more times..." Not everyone has the ability to play every game ten times to get into it. I have a hard time getting the games I currently own played that many times in a year; I'm certainly not going to give up plays on games I actually like to MAYBE change my mind on another game. That's like watching 10 episodes of a crappy show only because there's a great twist at the end. Life is too short and there are too many games.
If people like games that take a lot of plays to figure out and they have the time to devote to doing so, then they now know to try this. But that's not really a great suggestion for someone with a RUclips channel that is mostly about discovering new games. I know I would much rather he spend the time playing 5 or 6 other new games and telling us about them.
@@kevinbhieey9188 I agree
@@kevinbhieey9188 that is just a ridiculous premise. The deeper and better a game is, the more plays are required. Chess takes dozens of plays before you're anywhere close to competitive.
And while focusing on what you want (tell us about 5 or 6 new games) is a boldly selfish way to look at things, maybe suggesting to someone how they could increase their enjoyment of games isn't necessarily a bad thing.
If simple games that you can understand on the first play are your thing that's fine. But why you would buy a game without the intention of playing it multiple times is beyond me. The easy path isn't for everyone and I would think it's refreshing for people who play a lot of games to find something that's a challenge and takes a few plays to catch on.
@@jeffmackey2740 I agree with you. I think I’ve become much more selective with games. I’ve reduced my purchasing to 2 a year Fathers Day and my birthday here in November and that has worked wonders. For Father’s Day I get easier kid friendly games that hits at the everyone gets it right away. This year that was Quacks of Q. For my birthday I want that game that is going to open up thought and strategies on a deeper levels so went with Pax Pamir 2E. There certainly is room for both. I dislike it more when you get a game that after a few plays it’s enjoyable but marches down hill from there.
RE Pax: I would note that with more experience, you would find that some players will push the token method harder, which slows down and/or neutralizes the political aspect. i.e. Let Mr Russia and Mr UK battle it out with the colored pieces on the map, likely keeping the margin
The games were very politics heavy, I think one or two of the 7 scorings (out of 2 games) didn't have dominance. Interestingly one person playing was taugh by someone else who told them that dominance happens rarely, but that's certainly not what we saw. Again, we are all inexperienced with the game which is likely part of why it ended up like this. Many plays like moving spies to enable betrayal, moving any troops in the map, etc weren't really seen in our games because we were grappling with the basics still I think.
@@JonGetsGames I'd agree it's a game that you learn bit by bit - first getting the rules down, then the strategy. Also we find it plays best at 4, then 5 and 3 last (as it tends to end up as a two-on-one).
@@JonGetsGames The actions in each game will also be heavily determined by which cards get seeded into the deck and which cards come out first.
I'd also recommend playing the game some more at 2 players because you'll be able to better formulate plans while focusing on your own options as well as trying to get into your opponents head to figure out what they're trying to do. versus trying to figure out what 2 - 4 other players are trying to do.
At higher player counts, each additional player adds more and more chaos to the point that the board state is very different by the time your turn comes around again. With higher player counts, it becomes more important to keep a card in hand that will allow you to quickly switch coalitions or have some way of doing so.
Back to the deck, as with the chits in An Infamous Traffic, learning to read the market is a very important skill to develop. You'll want to look at the impact icons to determine whether or not a dominance is probable as well as what sorts of actions are available on the cards, as this will foretell possible avenues to coming out on top when the first dominance comes around.
You’re growing your hair. Looks cool.
Ha, well I normally get a hair cut every 8 or so weeks and that would have happened in early May if this was a normal year. This is the longest my hair has been in 18 years!