Tuschieren mit Schleifer / An alternative to hand scraping
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- Опубликовано: 17 апр 2013
- (English below)
Das Video zeigt eine Alternative zum Schaben. Nicht jeder hat entsprechendes Schabewerkzeug zu Hause oder hat Bedenken, mit Schaben ein gutes Ergebnis zu erreichen. Aber vielleicht ist eine Handschleifmaschine verfügbar. Mit einiger Übung ist das Ergebnis so gut wie geschabt. Es lässt sich eine Genauigkeit von weniger als 0,005mm (5µm) erreichen. Außerdem lassen sich so auch gehärtete Werkstücke bearbeiten. Der Schleifstaub ist kein Problem, solange die Tuschierplatte nicht in unmittelbarer Nähe des Arbeitsplatzes ist.
The video shows an alternative to hand scraping. Not everyone has appropriate scraping tool at home or is concerned with scraping to achieve a good result. But perhaps a hand grinder is available. With practice, the result is almost scraped. It can be an accuracy of less than 0.005 mm (5 microns) achieve. Moreover, so also hardened work pieces can be worked on. The grinding dust is not a problem as long as the surface plate is not in the immediate vicinity of the workplace. 
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I have recently found an interest in scraping but my body is getting too old and worn. I can not afford a proper power scraper. I already have all the tools to do it your way!! I do not care if some people claim this isn't as good as hand scraping. This I can do until I'm 90! Thanks a million for the video.
Thanks a million for your feedback. I'm happy because you are happy! Many greetings from Germany, Michael.
Das ist genial, geht schnell und funktioniert. Ich habe derzeit weder Powerscraper noch Hartmetallhandschaber und habe mich bisher mit einer entspr. angeschliffenen alten Feile beholfen. Das ging, aber langsam und sah nicht aus. Mit Deiner Technik habe ich gestern in wenigen Durchgäbgen eine Fläche ca. 70x200mm für einen Selbstbau eben und tragend bekommen. Das Tragbild kann man vorzeigen und mit Gleitbahnöl hält der Schlitten regelrecht saugend. Vielen Dank.
Super, das freut mich sehr! Und vielen Dank für das Feedback!
Sweet video. Really dig this sort of thing.
Would love to see more. Keep it up.
I think this is a good idea.
I used it, to get a compound slide to reasonable flatness. I did the finishing with a hand scraper. Saved me a lot of time. And the result after finish scraping was perfect.
Vielen Dank!
That pleases me very much. Thank you very much for the feedback
Just wish that I could click on Thumbs Up more than once. Great idea! Thank you.
Thank you for your feedback! What I show in this video is not an idea of mine. I am a toolmaker and it is quite a normal activity of a toolmaker. Let me know if you need more information.
Thanks for sharing. I've seen this technique use on hardened ways.
nice work
As a toolmaker in auto industry I do a lot of hand grinding with pneumatic or electric die grinders. For flat surfaces I prefer biger 25mm conical grinding stone, it produces very flat and even surface. Did a test on 250x150mm hardened steel. Surface was around 0.02mm low at the center. After 1/2 hour and around 10 grinding pases It was in few microns. So it can be done, but you must be very careful. Probably the best and fastest way would be to grind it with die grinder than scrape it for last 5 pases.
Thank you for your answer, Kevin. I'm also a toolmaker in auto industry and I also use larger grinding stones with 6mm shank for larg work pieces. Greets Michael
Hello Migru, was thinking of doing a video like this. I am a die maker in the auto industry in America. We call this spotting normally used on odd shaped die sections, trim steels, after heat treat. Spotting is and all around method to fit details together. I remember when I was an apprentice and scraperhands would be brought in to work on a machine, I used to think that type of work is to tedious for me. Now look how popular scraping has become at least on RUclips. Great video, I'm actually working on my atlas 618 lathe right now reclaiming all the wear surfaces.
Mike - Plus8Precision
Hi Mike, thank you very much for your contribution. I was also a toolmaker at a car manufacturer (now retired). My first contact with this type of surface machining was in the 70s during my toolmaker training. Since then it has been part of my daily work. I watched some of your videos: great work! I wish you a lot of fun with the restoration of the atlas 618 lathe. Greetings from Germany, Michael
I am not a machinist but I worked a piece of cast iron about 4x6 inches like this with a Dremmel and it worked .
Ha! Super!
@migru59 I've been using your technique recently, trying to level my lathe's bed ways. I had bought a mini lathe from China which arrived horribly out of spec, especially the lathe bed was in very bad shape. Originally I did the same as you showed in your video, using one of those coloured grinding wheels in my rotary tool to grind away the high points that were dyed blue by oil paint applied with a camelback parallel, and it worked really well. However it also left a pretty bad finish, very rough and needing quite a bid of work up in between to debur. I had a bit of an eureka moment and tried something else to remove the high spots with, rotary tool mounted sanding drums. It made a noticeable difference, much more accurate metal removal and it left a much better finish afterwards! The next improvement I'm wanting to try out is to make some custom sanding drums with fine sandpaper (240, 320 & 400 grit) for the final steps, so using coarse sanding drums for the initial metal removal and once it's showing blue dye over the entire length of the work switch over to the fine sanding drums to remove away very small amounts of metal and leave a very smooth finish.
Hello Pieter, thank you for your feedback 👍 I am using these grinding heads:
www.ebay.de/itm/403394057431?hash=item5dec28d4d7:g:0YoAAOSwcrph1Wev
www.ebay.de/itm/164922177142?hash=item266620b676:g:T9kAAOSwRXRgpdvP
www.ebay.de/itm/223647716296?epid=1004237806&hash=item34127153c8:g:tqMAAOSwMyJdbNFz
These are for steel and hardened steel
Very importent: for preparing the grinding head you need a sharpening stone: www.ebay.de/itm/265677987546?epid=1204239912&hash=item3ddba45eda:g:wOQAAOSwhx9ic5oI
It is for sharpening and cleaning the grinding head and gives him a perfect concentricity. If you use it very softly, the grinding head will be perfect for a smooth surface. For a smooth finish also importent: don't press to hard on the surface when grinding.
I m building my onw lathe and know how hard is scraping steel with scraper
Well done. I am going to try this as a method first with practice pieces, then I have a Clausing Lathe that has slightly worn ways. They are hardened so this may be much better for that
I did my Bridgeport's hardened Y way with a bench grinder and I was lucky enough to pull a 0,01 mm over 600 mm length. The X way I first cleaned it off of the crome coating and then I power scraped it. It took me forever and a day.
Finally a useful response. Thanks.
@@janlolwitz951 👍
I like it! :)
Danka! I'm tempted to try HSS Dremel bits to avoid the possibility of embedding abrasive particles in the work piece.
Thank you for you answer, Nicolas. You will not have abrasive particels in the work piece. Make a try. HSS Dremel bits and also Tungsten Carbide tools are better for aluminum or non-metallic materials like wood, plastics or something. You can make a try with HSS bits and tell us your result. Best regards, Michael.
Very good. And it is NOT an "alternative" (it sounds little bit inferior) to scraping...
It is separate, proper and legit technique in many industries (for example tool, die, and mold making). Rotary tools are used usually in roughing stage, then you switch to reciprocating motion (by machines or by hand, like classic stoning). If necessary you finish with lapping and/or polishing.
Thanks for the video, very useful for us who can't afford a power scrapper, . What type of grinding stone do you use?
Thanks for your feedback! The type of grinding head is corundum, the grid is 30 and 46 (in Germany). For preparing the grinding head you need a sharpening stone like this: www.harborfreight.com/combination-sharpening-stone-7345.html It is for sharpening and cleaning the grinding head and gives him a perfect concentricity. And also you can give the grinding head a conical form or what ever you need.
migru59 excellent, thank you.
wow,i like too much
Beautiful! how many RPM does proxxon multi tool?
The proxxon multi tool has 5,000 to 20,000 RPM. This small mounted point needs 20,000 RPM (twenty thousand) Der Proxxon-Schleifer hat eine Drehzahl von 5.000 bis 20.000 U/Min. Diese kleinen Schleifstifte benötigen 20.000 1/min
I dont have access to this pink rocket tool. Another DIY tip for using with a dremel?
You can also use this brown, grey and white grinding stones: www.ebay.com/itm/100pc-1-8-Mini-Rotary-Tools-Cutter-Grinding-Wheels-Polish-CHIFRS10/131928274288?hash=item1eb789b570:rk:5:pf:0
What is the type and/or grit of the grinding head? Also, what are you doing to prepare it around 1:15 ? Thanks!
The type of grinding head is corundum, the grid is 30 and 46 (in Germany). For preparing the grinding head you need a sharpening stone like this: www.harborfreight.com/combination-sharpening-stone-7345.html It is for sharpening and cleaning the grinding head and gives him a perfect concentricity. And also you can give the grinding head a conical form or what ever you need.
+migru59 Got it! I'm in the US, so I'll have to check to see if our aluminum oxide (corundum) grit system is the same. I'm getting a surface plate, and a dremel tool (but not a hand scraping tool!) so I'll give this a try on some scrap. Thanks!
+Thomas Donalek OK, tell me if you need help or more information!
I have been working on an unfinished, Busch Precision cast iron straight edge, a few minutes to an hour, for several weeks now. A very rough bar of cast iron. I have a scraper tool about 18 inches long with a carbide scraper bit and recently started using a file as well. When I write "rough" I mean that the differences the height of one part of the straight edge to another is as much as .125 thousands of an inch!
It has been very slow going. Before seeing this video, last week I started using a Dremel with a grinding stone. An American version of the Proxxon that is used in this video. The grinding stone is an orange one. I am not sure how that compares to the pink grinding stone. I will try that type of grind stone and see how it works. The work is going much faster now that I started with the grinding stone.
Hopefully there will be no problem with the grains of the grinding stone embedding in the cast iron. I have been bluing the straight edge on a cast iron surface plate. I will know if there is embedded particles of the grind stone when I clean the bluing off it. If there are lots of tiny circles on it, then there were. But, when using the carbide scraper bit, I was taught to use a small sharpening stone to smooth out any ridges left after scraping and before re-bluing the part being scraped. I am sure there were no abrasive grains of the stone embedded with that.
In regards to the issue of grinders embedding grains into the metal, I read on a hobby machinist forum where a guy wrote about a large, precision machine that was being scraped and rebuilt, in place, where he worked. He wrote that the man climbed up on the machine and began to use a 4 inch angle grinder on the ways of the large machine. He had to walk away at that point. So, if an employee of a professional scraping and rebuild shop would use a grinder on machines then they must know that it will not embed abrasive particles in the metal.
What do you mean with .125 thousends of an inch? Do you mean .125 inch or .00125 inch? Is the difference of the high .125 inch and the workpiece is large, then the dremel will be overloaded quickly. For your information: I am a toolmaker and in our company we use this grinder: www.bosch-professional.com/de/de/products/ggs-28-lce-0601221100
If a lot of material needs to be grindet, we use this: www.bosch-professional.com/de/de/products/ggs-8-sh-0601214300
Makita also has good die grinder. For small workpieces as in my video you can use the dremel.
The grindstone is not that important at first. With some grindstones you can remove more material, with other grindstones you can grind finer.
It is important that you sharpen the grindstone again and again, as I show it in the video.
It will not embed abrasive particles in the metal. You will see.
Tell me if you want more information.
@Nevil Oh, 1/8 of an inch, that's realy a lot. That's probably too much for that little Dremel. I would take a die grinder with more power or maybe an angle grinder
Thank you for sharing! Did you intentionally use the abrasive ceramic over tungsten carbide bit?
Thank you for your Feedback. I do not understand your question. Could you explain to me what you mean?
migru59 Awesome. The rotary tool you used had an abrasive ceramic tool bit and I was wondering why you didn't use a tungsten carbide tool bit. I thought that the tungsten carbide wood retain its Cutting Edge for longer and be a cleaner method. Have you only used the pink abrasive tool bits with this method? Thank you for responding.
Oh, now I understand your question. Abrasive ceramic tool bits are the best for steel and hardened steel. I'm also using brown, gray, white abrasive ceramic tool bits. The differences are small. Tungsten carbide tools are better for aluminum or non-metallic materials like wood, plastics or something
migru59 okay awesome! Thank you so much for the response.
You are welcome :)
that could work for a mated non moving surface but for moving surfaces you need about 20points per 25x25mm, the peaks and valleys need to be between 1-2micron for carrying lubrication oil. watching you work on that tiny surface, all i can say is it would have been much more efficient to have done it with a manual hand scraper to a much higher standard. nice idea but scarping wouldn't exist if it could be done this way properly.
This technique is used when machining sliding surfaces in tools and dies and works very well. The technology has to be adapted a little to the sliding surfaces. This technique has been around for more than 50 years and has largely replaced scraping because it is faster and still very accurate. In this way I have precisely machined all sliding surfaces of my milling machine and lathe. They work very, very well and precisely 😉 Did you try
what brand is the hi-spot blueing that you use?
In Germany it is called: DIAMANT Tuschierpaste blau
@Barry Manilowa Thank you!
Sir, i used your method wiht a Dremel 3000 over a Colcheter lathe ways. I could get .005 mm flatness in one meter.
Hello Carlos, thank you for the feedback! I am glad that your work was successful 👍👍👍
Michael
Is that surface plate made of steel
Yes, it is made of steel. If necessary, you can use anything that is plane and smooth
Can i use angle grinder for this method? And cutting disc?
Yes, if you need to grind down 1mm or more of material, for example, you can start with the angle grinder. It depends on how skillfully you can handle the angle grinder. But be careful, the workpiece can get very hot. The finish you do with the hand grinder
@@migru59 Dear Michael
First of all, thank you very much for your video it is very helpful.
Your method is widely used by professionals in many countries renovating machine tool slide ways if the layer to be removed is thick or the surface is hard. It is not considered economical to scrape a layer thicker than 0.05 mm by hand. Therefore, a layer over 0.05 mm is considered thick.
But removing a 0.9 mm thick layer with a Dremel would be almost impossible, even for the part you process in the video.
A lot of professionals at east-Europa and Asia on you tube use 115 mm angle grinder even for 0.02 mm. There are even those who do the finishing process with angle grinders.
The professionals have developed skills to do very precise work with 115 mm angle grinders despite being large and heavy.
For this, they use cut-off wheel with a thickness of 1-2 mm. They blunt the working edge by sharpening stone, as you do, to prevent the stone from cutting deeply.
Even if mini grinders like the Dremel were much more comfortable to work with, they wouldn't work on large machines and professional work. Because they are made for amateurish small jobs. They are not suitable for long-term use.
Pneumatic ones are convenient but are compressor dependent.
Mini grinders with flexible shaft, which are powered by universal motors with speed adjustment that can work continuously, may be suitable for long-term use.
Greetings from Turkey.
Atalay Surmeli
Hello Atalay Surmeli, Thank you for your reply. I've never used an angle grinder for this kind of work. But if a lot of material has to be removed, it makes sense. When I was still working as a toolmaker, I used this grinder for grinding work: www.bosch-professional.com/de/de/products/ggs-28-lce-0601221100
Most of the works were concave or convex surfaces and also sliding guides in pressing tools.
At home I reworked the sliding guides of my milling machine with the Proxxon grinder. He is very well suited for this.
Greetings from Germany
Michael
@@migru59 Hello Dear Michael
Thank you for the information you provided.
Renovation of the slideways of milling machine with Proxxson mini grinder is a great success, congratulations.
It's very nice to share your experiences with us.
Also Thanks for Bosch professional die grinder too.
Perhaps may be useul, there are some people on you tube, who use straight rubber polishing wheel with shank, after the scraping with grinder, to make grinding marks smoother.
Some of them also use only straight rubber polishing wheels,while scraping by grinding, to obtain shallow and smooth traces.
Straight rubber polishing wheel with shank, like to straight grinding wheel with shank you use.
I wish you continuation of your success and a happy life.
@@atalaysurmeli2653 Hello Atalay Surmeli
I cannot recommend a rubber polishing wheel. When the surface is finished I use a whetstone/honing stone which I draw by hand 3 or 4 times over the finished surface. This will only remove the highest peaks, that's enough.
For example, such or similar sharpening stones (120/240/400): www.amazon.de/OUHZNUX-Messersch%C3%A4rfsteine-Messersch%C3%A4rfer-profies-Schleifstein-Set/dp/B0BYJ7SFZK/ref=
Many greetings
I've seen people use 115mm angle grinders for this purpose on large workpieces!!!
Yes, if you have to remove a lot of material, that's a good method. It's the same principle :)
@@migru59 The example I saw was flattening a sway-backed anvil...
Many amateurs don't have a machine tool that'd do that, but print-cut-repeat does it easily
Why it bent in the first place, from surface quality look like has been finnished from surface grinding machine. Or you are working on unstable material not suitable to be used as any standard tool.
The workpiece is raw material
what type of paint do you use?
Spot paste blue www.wemag.de/en/item/spot-paste-3000331.0080
@@migru59 thank you
Have you heard anything about white hand syndrome?
Yes, there is when you use large, strongly vibrating machines like a chainsaw for a long period of time
I have the exact same rotary tool, so I thought I'd give it a try. It works, to be sure, but it takes a great deal of practice to keep the surface flat enough, instead of turning it into a series of wave-like peaks and valleys. If you don't have a scraper, then this is indeed a good alternative; on the other hand, you could invest perhaps 100 euros and get a proper hand scraper, which will produce a flatter trough. In any case, I commend migru59 for providing food for thought; given that a Biax scraper is far beyond most hobbyists' resources, perhaps we should start looking for alternatives. How about a modified reciprocating saw? Or even a jigsaw?
Thank you for your Reply! You're right, you need some practice. If you grind too large waves, maybee you press a bit too strong or you move the grinder too slowly over the surface. In the beginning, you can press a little bit more, in the end press less and less. The grinder should only slide over the surface. At the beginning of the video, the difference between highest and lowest point is 0.2mm. At the end less than 0.005mm. It is important to have a good concentric runout of the grinding pin (no vibrations). If it is possible to make a video of your work, I may help you better.
I won't publish the results of my attempt, because I mangled an - admittedly crappy - xy table badly! I just didn't realize how much material a grinding stone can remove . But I'm getting better. As soon as I get a decent result I'll publish it.
im a hobby mashinist from Bulgaria and i modified one pneumatic tool for cleaning welds.its cheap and very accurate for me.i just brazed cabide milling cutter to a flat bar.i dont know the name of the tool but its hardened rods to a piston bodi
i cant find any descent hand scraper or blue in Bulgaria
I've never seen someone paint bluing on.
This is usual for spotting concave and convex surfaces. For straight surfaces you should use a role for best results.
All that grinding dust is ending up on your surface plate. How do you expect to get good results from doing this? Why not just make a simple scraper from an old file and do it the right way? ,,, by hand scraping!
The video is an exemple as an alternative to hand scraping. Some workers don't have scraping tools or be afraid to scraping. But a lot of them have a grinding machine. So you can also use for hardened workpieces. If you have some practice the result is as good as hand scraping. The grinding dust is no problem if the surface plate is not very close to the workplace. Sorry for my bad English. Das Video zeigt eine Alternative zum Schaben. Nicht jeder hat entsprechendes Schabewerkzeug zu Hause oder hat Bedenken, mit Schaben ein gutes Ergebnis zu erreichen. Aber vielleicht ist eine Handschleifmaschine verfügbar. Mit einiger Übung ist das Ergebnis so gut wie geschabt. Außerdem lassen sich so auch gehärtete Werkstücke bearbeiten. Der Schleifstaub ist kein Problem, solange die Tuschierplatte nicht in unmittelbarer Nähe des Arbeitsplatzes ist.
Since the title of the video is "An alternative to hand scraping", I believe your question is... OK, let's say nonsensical,
What happens to grinded parts from precision grinder, when they get checked on surface plate? This kind of stone is not prone to embedding in material, unlike diamond lape or similar. Don't shit on other mans hard work, just to try to look smart, no one that knows anything will think high of you.
Hey "100nortonfan" moron, how can you know what is "The Right Way"?
It depends on industry, part function, application. Scraping is NOT the only way to make things flat (or "true" by any means).
to make something flat it is .prooven by much smarter people than you and me also
Terrible idea you're introducing grinding particles into the material you're trying to flatten. If it's a way, that it'll just accelerate the ear. This is definitely not an alternative
Thank you for your answer. Grinding does not introduce abrasive particles to enter the surface. If you have concerns you can use a grindstone for finishing. If your grinder is too loud, you can use earplugs. I do that too, if it's a longer work
its cheating.
it works, its fast, and its takes minimal effort.
its still cheating.
its ok to cheat sometimes.
work smarter, not harder!
for reference surfaces, theres no other way to get 90% or better.
still chase with a hand scraper on slides.