I do agree with your main opinion here. As a woman, being feminine and wanting to embrace your sexuality doesn't make you any less of a feminist. Personally, I admire women with the confidence to wear whatever they want and own it. My problem with the fashion of charmed was that it wasn't done in the name of feminism. Not really. I've often heard this said of the producers that their issue of the week was often 'How can we get the girls naked?' And this was definitely during the Brad Kern seasons. It was also one of the things he and Constance M. Burge disagreed on. Her concern was the sisterhood element, his initially started out as being over Phoebe's love-interest, but evolved into how he could get our main interests into skimpy costumes to boost ratings. The stories and the characters were written with some meaning and entertainment (give or take some seasons), but executed differently, depending on the influence the choice of costume has. The woman in the costume department left charmed, not because she believed the show, or the women in it to be toxic, but because she saw the signs of where the show was heading and sensed that the producers didn't care about feminism anymore. Not truly. Phoebe was already a sultry, yet confident, intelligent and caring character (excluding all that Cole stuff!) especially in the first, three seasons. They didn't need to keep on pushing her sexuality to the forefront because we already knew who she was at this point. But because Alyssa Milano didn't object, and because it's a proven fact that sex sells, the powers that be decided to put her in golden pasties. It wasn't done for female empowerment; it was done to sell the show to a bigger audience. I can't blame the lead actresses for defending a show they put so much work into for a solid eight years. They did their jobs admirably and I can see the positive feminist elements of the show when they're there. Even the fashion of the first few seasons was inoffensive and often well-chosen. When there was a silly outfit, there was a better reason for it than just: 'magic did it'. Does magic want to put you into golden pasties, midriff ballgowns and leather bikinis? If so, magic is pretty perverted. On top of that, some of the costumes of charmed are just ugly, in general. Even for the time period, there were much nicer clothes to wear than half of the outfits Phoebe has donned on the show. I like your video, for the most part. But I don't think that criticisms of the shows costuming should be disregarded because it can be perceived as jealousy or toxic feminism. It's great that you've acknowledged that a woman is no less a feminist for wanting to be feminine; the original meaning of feminism is to give our sex the credit and equality they deserve. But I am certain of this; the costuming of charmed might've started out well enough, but in the Brad Kern era, it had nothing to do with empowering women. The goal of making money off of sex appeal overpowered the need of empowering, female protagonists.
You said so much of what I was thinking while watching this. I just want to add/reemphasize for @BetterWithBob a few more points... I not only grew up during this time, but also as a girl who was affected (like many young girls) by the treatment of women’s bodies during the late 90s-early 00s. @BetterWithBob, your arguments that women showing skin was a means of empowerment ignores several facts: 1. As @juliamontgomery7312 said, Brad Kern - a male executive - very specifically chose to put the leads in skimpy outfits to draw in a male audience. There was no other reason. It was not a decision made by women for the purposes of empowerment. This is also the case with the other examples from that period you provided where male executives, show runners, producers, etc. sometimes coerced their performers to dress that way or risk losing their jobs. Of course the performers are going to defend it while they are on the show and their jobs could be at risk for speaking out. Once they are off the show, it's another story, which brings me to... 2. Women from this era have expressed extreme discomfort with what they were forced to wear. They spoke not only on how uncomfortable they were being stripped down and on display, but also spoke on the practical issues that the tight, revealing clothing and heels left them constricted, cold, and in pain. (You blow over the fact that all three original Charmed leads have expressed this.) It’s not exactly empowerment if the women in these situations do not have the power to decide if this is what they want to wear. 3. Part of wearing these outfits was that it came with expectations of being a size 0. IIRC, AM openly discussed difficulty staying warm due to the demands that she stay unhealthily skinny and forced to dress in almost nothing, as well as constantly being monitored to stand and position herself a certain way to hide any sign of possible fat. HMC refused to comply with the size standards and was, subsequently, given a much more modest wardrobe. If it really were about appreciating women's bodies, she would have had the same outfits as her co-stars. (None of this even goes into the damage this did to young women’s self-esteem at that time and the increase in ED.) 4. These wardrobes moments were used when they didn’t make narrative sense. Phoebe wearing a skimpy outfit at P3, cool. Good for her. I’ll even give a pass to Prue in Ms. Hellfire. But Paige and Phoebe having their shirts chopped up to expose their shoulders and midriffs while patients in a mental health facility? No justification other than to be eye candy for a tv audience. Same with Prue wearing heels and constricting clothes while running up a wall. It makes no sense that the character would risk breaking her ankle or limiting her mobility in that situation. From a character standpoint, it characterized Prue as stupid and impractical, of which she was neither. In comparison, there is a scene with Phoebe training and she is wearing revealing gym wear, but at least the sports bra in this scenario is practical and contextually justified. Prue could have worn something like that and bike shorts if they were really about being proud of her body. But no, they put her in a wonder bra, which means no support and all sorts of boob pain after their workout. I am all for people dressing as they wish, but the wardrobe of Charmed was not about women’s empowerment or bodily autonomy. The cast of Charmed, The Spice Girls, (underage) Britney Spears and Christina Aguelera, etc. did not chose their wardrobes. They dressed as their almost exclusively male boss’s demanded.
Oh, I remember that fashion was one of the things I liked in the show. All sisters have their own style and it was interesting to see what they would wear in the next ep
This guy agreed with a post insulting feminist on another one of his videos. He’s 100% into the show to watch half naked women and he doesn’t like that being called out.
I forget the source but apparently they tried to give her lines about Piper hating her body post pregnancy at the start of S7 and Holly just simply refused to read them. BAMF behavior right there.
@@BetterWithBob I know Holly gain weight over the series I think I read about it back in the day. didn't know about Shannen and Alyssa. were they called to skinny or to big?
The problem with the clothes on Charmed isn't the clothes, its that they were sexed up by a male producer for ratings. As a teenage girl at the time, I never minded what they wore, and I was glad to later find out that they had some say in it, but I vividly remember the commercials/promos for the show in the later years and it was very much an attempt to capture the male gaze. The number of times they framed an episode around how naked they could get Alyssa is wild. The earlier seasons let them just be sexy regardless of what they wore, because they all are, but the later seasons didn't seem genuine about it and that was my problem with it.
You know I'm a long-term fan of your work, so please take this unnecessarily long comment in good faith. RUclips comments are a terrible medium for talking about social issues. On the male gaze discourse: The male gaze is (unhelpfully named) term for the way that women are framed for a presumed straight male audience. It's a genuinely useful term. You're using the term "pop feminism" derisively, but you're also kind of uncritically making reference to the 90s decidedly pop feminist attitude that overt and visible sensuality (you know, more skin) is a statement of empowerment, even though that's a pretty nuanced topic with some serious issues. It can absolutely and uncomplicatedly be the case for some media, but there's a definite dual economy at times, where media companies can use the language of empowerment to avoid actual accusations of objectification. A couple of times in the video, you use in-universe reasons excusing objectification ("an evil being controlling Phoebe's body and violating it," characters' choices), but these were choices made in our world by studios with audience and profit in mind. If it will draw in more money, companies will titillate the straight male gaze (a long-ago proven method) and it's all the better for them if they can excuse it with a few buzz words. Pretending that there isn't a dual economy with these things can really get in the way of understanding the systems at play. I think the reason Lola Bunny was wearing a crop top was at least mostly for the male gaze, if we're being honest, even if the character can be read in a progressive way. Coyote Ugly presents a really interesting example of how mixing narratives of female empowerment and the male gaze can create a very real tension. By pandering to the male gaze, they can achieve financial stability and success. By leaning in to their own objectification, they can be, in a sense, empowered. It's a story of women benefitting from systems of oppression through accepting and perpetuating it. Is that the kind of empowerment that a feminist movement should uncritically espouse? Honestly, I just think it's worth taking objections with regards to issues around the male gaze seriously, even if you take them as examples of wider systems of oppression, not as bad choices by individuals or studios.
But its in the ed empowering , like they have fundoing shows. Yes they earn money, but in coyote ugly they still have fun doig that. And it does make her way more confident to go out of her comfort zone and explore herself and that she can just do that scene stealin bar dance. Which that women there take pride in if i remember right. Thats not opression, people are horny often, people want tolook good, and maybe sshe in that movie likedd that she can do that even if its not what sh wants in life. Looking good and sexy can be self empowering too, or enoying the attention, or just, looking pretty, or sexy. If thats duality, its not a serious criticism, then anythig is a duality, because people like seeing stuff they like. Ok what has mot a "male gaze" if i lookl at yaoi, that are very female main targeted, often by women, mens gaze. To seriously talk about that, throw out itss mn opresssing women, and nor just people objectifying people. That falls apart if we look how women do objectify men too in, messd up romance stories. Not aklways, but yaoi, yeah thats Not top mention that women write weird very sexualizing stuff under else about women. I think why that statemnt that its invalid is that male gaze does maybe ignore women do it too. And opressed by what? I also think its unfair calling it patrarchy when men are not the problem, Because there are all kinds of factors why someone could be discriminated and that intersects. Men too, nonbinary, too. Because its more about power insituation and prejuduces than just gender. Male gaze a word just ignores its not a "male" thing. I will agowledge that yeah men should be, moe open, but its not like youcan force people wth rute force to open up.And women are the problem too. And .. ok its an attitude problem or abuse by people, additional under capitalism. . Ok male gaze iss jut reductive as term and too judgey on who is the problem. Tats why talking abou seriously you dont talk about male gaze, you talk about pery too sexualized above what they on camra deserve, or as people.
Thank you, I've been looking for a comment like this! I feel like he made a lot a valid and good point, but still somehow dropped the ball on male gaze. The Jessica Rabbit part confused me most, because he correctly identified, that she is a subversion of a trope, but only looked at the subversion and not the trope. And the trope is literally the objectification of women's bodies through the male gaze. And he used it as a counter-argument against the validity of the male gaze. That just didn't make sense! I also strongly dislike that he discarded the male gaze as a concept, because not all men want the same thing, but also uncritically talked about female empowerment through owning their sexuality by wearing revealing clothing. Well, that doesn't empower every woman, so it should also be viewed as treating women's empowerment as a monolith and therefore be discarded as an argument, no? This video feels very 50/50 for me, because he walked face first into many good points, yet somehow stilled missed the overall picture. Because the problem is not that women show their bodies and sexuality in a media, it's problematic if it's unrelated (or worst counter-productive) to the narrative and is only used as a marketing technique to attract people to ogle the actresses bodies. Which happened a lot in later seasons. And if the actresses themselves confirm that impression, it's simply not empowerment, but objectification.
@@rainyhaze2053I feel like blokes just don’t like the term “male gaze” to be honest. Every single guy I’ve watched on RUclips either completely misses the point (eg justifies the male gaze because the female gaze exists and women objectify men too) or like Bob here gets things about 50/50 and I think in part it has to do with the actual name of the expression.
Where this analysis misses the mark a bit, is that you’re commenting solely on the characters, whereas the criticism focuses on the actresses. Phoebe running around in a sexy top is empowering, but Alyssa being told to wear that by a man, isn’t.
First time I don't agree with everything in one of your Charmed videos.. and that's OK! Lol. Everyone knows when a woman dresses for herself that that's empowering, so this felt like an odd take on the fashion considering we all know behind the scenes that majority of the sexy outfits were being pushed by men. And if anything, the commentary from the cast showcases that they had to really fight for themselves -and sometimes lost. They can look back at it now fondly, but when they went through it back then, the truth is they were being objectified, and that is the reason people feel icky ab it. Not due to jealousy or not wanting to see women show more skin. When you prefaced the video by saying you wouldn't be engaging in the "pop feminist" chat and talking ab the male gaze and objectifying women, I thought this was going to be about what the fashion said ab each character 😂 Instead, because you decided to leave "problematic" at the door, the analysis felt one-sided and oversimplified. That being said, I am not a hater, still love ya channel, peace byee.
I was a kid back then and I love their fashion. The nanny, Buffy, Totally Spies, Clueless and Charmed's fashion were the best. Now I can dress like that LOL
I think the skimpiness of their outfits never bothered me, even now looking back as a near 30yr old woman I still think if I had their abs i'd try some of those outfits myself (have to admit I loved Phoebes mermaid look), and I think people remember them being a LOT more revealing than they actually were (for instance the wood nymph dress actually comes across as more of a frumpy green pillowcase than something sexy). That said there were a number of post season 4 episodes where I questioned the reality of what Phoebe was able to wear to work without a disciplinary complaint. I know its weird to talk about 'reality' in a fantasy show, but there were some of her outfits that sort of amounted to an embellished bra and jeans, which looked great on her, but don't strike me as the type of thing that would be allowed in a 90s-00s corporate workplace.
Lol I guess we can hand wave it in Seasons 5 and 6 with the paper being owned by her boyfriend and nobody daring to tell the boss's girlfriend "you can't wear that"
Like many concepts the "male gaze" seems to have multiple interpretations.. For me it was always less about what they wore, but what the camera did. In many novies and shows, the camera "looks" like a horny straight male would. Classic example: the transformers, where the "text" shows: this sexy lady is smart and capable, but the camera says: ooooh midriff! In charmed, the camera mainly focussed on what the camera focussed on, showing them as a whole..so no, i wouldnd't call it male gazy..
@@BetterWithBob he is extreme, that's true. But there is a tendency for cameras often looking as a straight (horny) male would. (Even if the story does not support that angle) Which as far as i know was the start of the discussion of male gaze. It was then, sadly turned into a buzzword being used every time a woman is sexy...and "proven wrong" every time a man is sexy, even though sexyness was never the issue...
I also don’t think that “male gaze” is meant to be specific to all men. The same way toxic masculinity isn’t. It’s more of a societal/cultural issue that TENDS to happen. I think that cultural jargon is an issue because MANY people with agendas misuse words to the point that the meaning gets distorted. (Not the OP) To me, feminism has always been about women being empowered to live how they choose to.
I totally agree with this point, and it's why I never questioned the amount of skin shown while growing up. It just felt like they were wearing what they wanted, had their own styles and could be sexy or not, depending on their mood and regardless of the clothes they were wearing.
I love this channel, but I'm 10 minutes into the video and have heard a lecture about the male gaze and a mini video essay on Jessica Rabbit. I was expecting a season by season look at the best & worst outfits or something😂
I usually love this the Charmed content. Idk I felt like this video was more a critique of 2023 view of the clothes and male gaze theory. Like I must have misinterpreted, I thought we were gonna talk about the clothes 😭. I’m 16 mins in and we have barely mentioned the clothing
I love Paige’s Season 7 fashions and notice a big change in Phoebe’s wardrobe in Season 5 onward with Season 5(and 7) being my favorite wardrobe of hers.
I suppose Phoebe's wardrobe change in Season 5 is probably because now she's "Ask Phoebe" and getting a hefty source of income. She doesn't get a car of her own until this season too
this video comes across as defensive and barley descusses the amazing fashion on this show. it basicly 25 miniutes of its ok to dress sexy and show skin. yea we all know this, Feminism has been saying this for years that is what sl*t walk was about. I wold love a video that actuly goes into the fashion of the show maybe you could do a colab with a fashion channel
seriously. it's the the chest close-ups while the girls are walking in slomo that people are side-eyeing - the actual male gaze of it all. the skimpy costumes aren't the problem on their own.
I also remember that at some point Phoebe started to wear too explicit and sexy outfit all the time and often it was not appropriate for the place in my opinion. Every episode was like 'let's see what else she will show this time'. And all her storyline suddenly started to revolve only around a new man she had every new season and seduction and sex.
Seasons 5 and 6 were the only ones where she was ever that skimpy, and even then there were plenty of modest outfits. She wore on average 2-3 outfits per episode and there was usually one covering something
@@BetterWithBobPhoebe rode naked on a horse in season 7. They had all 4 women (although things weren't that bad with Prue/Shannen) dress skimpily because they wanted men to tune in. That's all. It had nothing to do with their powers, the shows' progression or anything else. And the male gaze is definitely a thing. The spike in male viewership after A Witch's Tale proved that. Show AM practically naked from the waist up for the better part of two hours, and men will tune in.
I loved Holly's hair she could grow it so long and layered without extensions. I also loved the high ponytail with the bangs in season 1 and I loved her hair in Charmed and Dangerous
Yass! I have always said this. My sisters and I revisit Charmed sometimes and it's never too long before I'm doting on Piper's hair. Utter perfection. ♥
It was a hard adjustment for me as a kid when she started wearing more belly-bearing outfits in season 2 or 3. I was like "That's not what she would wear!! That's Phoebe clothes!!"
@@jerfuhrer2581prue was so beautiful in season 2 though. My favorite outfit was when she had that cropped pink cardigan on and the purple bra or whatever with the long skirt
@@jerfuhrer2581 towards the end of season 1 her fashion seemed to changed. she wore a few outfits that showed her belly towards the end. i Loved her fashion in season 1 also in Wicca Envy she worse some cool outfits
I never really focused on the fashion. What I did notice was that after Prue quit, she became more carefree in her clothes. My personal style is closer to Piper as I don't like showing off my body that much, not like some of the other sisters. What I also like about fashion, is that it gives each sister their own personality without telling us what is going on with them.
And she always had an article of green on in most of the S4 episodes. I heard green was either Paige or Rose's favorite color but I can't remember where I read that. It's been bugging me for months...
I love it, it was the season when she showed more of her artistic side and that reflected in her wardrobe. She tended to be the most out there in her style, but always cool!
While I love your content and absolutely cherish your Charmed coverage - it’s one of my favorite shows of all time - but I think your view is as limited as the opposite side. I personally would like to see less of women dressed like that so often because a man is writing them that way, but I don’t hate when women dress hot in shows, it’s just when it’s overboard or all the time. I think Charmed towed the line roughly 60/40, cuz you’re right, they often also wore an oversized sweater or regular jeans or something comfy, but the fact that they were pushed more to do it by men is the problem. Maybe I don’t speak to enough other women on this, lol, but I don’t think it’s strictly, “Women dressing hot is always bad,” or “Women dressing hot is always empowering.”
I agree with you. I thought this analysis had some good parts and some bad parts. All clothing is empowering, but only when the person chooses to wear them. If an actress chooses to wear sexy clothes, it's empowering. If the director tells her to wear it, not to tell a story but for ratings, it's not empowering, it's pandering to what society believes men want to see
Exactly. If it was the choice of the women then great, but it wasn’t. If the storylines had come first, and the outfits chosen to match, with the input of the women… great. But they weren’t. Some dude from the network has been quoted as saying “how can we get the girls more naked”. For example, the mermaid outfit being designed first, and then having to work out a story to showcase it second.
As a 12 year old who LOVED Charmed, I couldn't help but notice how unnecessary OVERsexualized these on-screen characters were at the time. Yes, everyone should be able to wear what s/he wants to wear, but "the industry's" influence on these things was and still is just massive. So in many ways, I don't agree with the content of this video. Compare, for example, the cover of Taylor Swift's albums (back then vs. her own version). And yes, fashion changes by time. But what about viewers for whom sexuality is not the most defining thing in life: can we get fictional characters with decent clothing to watch?
*My favourite outfit in the show was Holly Marie's outfit in the first episode. the long green top and green and black skirt and when Prue would wear leather jackets in season 1*
My favourite of hers is the red top she wore in Charmed & Dangerous. Her hair looked gorgeous the way it was done For Prue my favourite is the blue dress and the necklace she wore in Pardon My Past
Just so we're clear, i just absolutely love, love, _love_ this channel. I always feel intellectually stimulated for lack of a better phrase. 10:57 - 11:04 While I think it's empowering and maybe because I'm a minority myself, i tend to agree with the critics saying that all the non white Disney heroines (mentioned here) and princesses (including the *offensive* Senator from Massachusetts #shade) all were sexualized in some form or another. Yes an argument can be made that it's empowering because it made them full multi dimension women but its just interesting that Disney didn't do the same for the other white princesses when we were growing up. I can't stop thinking about what that has done to a generation of us boys and how we now may/may not have grown up to be men who value women of different races differently. I dunno. It's just something i think of sometimes.
The original 1989 Ariel was white as they come and wore a bra throughout half the movie. Tiana from princess and the frog dressed modestly and so did Pocohantis. Sorry my spelling is bad.
@@Hi-jw7oq I think the shots and angles of the last one you mentioned (ie the *offensive* one I also mentioned) seemed more mature to me than did Ariel in her bra. The latter, Ariel, looked more like a harmless child than the former who looked more like a sexualized adult, which is ironic considering the real historic character was like 12. But you may be right that I'm judging them through a 2023 lens rather than what they were in the time period when they came out.
@@TCt83067695 thats fair. I am a white woman and i lived in some countries where white skin was the minority and from personal expierence, i can tell you many fettishize white females as well.
Growing up in the 90s and 00s over sexualized culture simply fueled my own personal confidence and self esteem. It became GLARINGLY obvious that femininity, and its sexualization, has always demanded such an overwhelming amount of power that it terrifies those who do not poses it into wanting to control, oppress, and subjugate. Disgustingly, however, the lusting of 'grown adults' (men/women/whatever insert) as i was a personal victim to it caused me to suppress the innate feminine in attempts to protect myself. Going through puberty at 11 made me wish to be a boy as mentally I was not ready to display a womanly body because DUH I was very much still a child.
You should make a part 2 highlighting the best outfit choices or a series of how the outfits describe each character in a lengthy less political way that makes fashion more fun and less sensitive. I enjoy your videos 🙏🏽🙏🏽
this video is litteraly "let me, as a MAN, explain to you how sexy women with les cloth is actually good, and sexual misconduct in the world place is just non bothering to me"
Exactly! What an annoying video. I loved the show and was looking for a fun video looking at the show, the house, their fashions etc. But this seems like a grumpy anti feminist rant by a man who misunderstands and hates feminism.
As someone who just started to get into costuming, I love looking back at shows like this and realising that the clothes are so finely crafted for everyone as opposed to ‘yeah just put them in whatever’
Yeah I've had to be on the receiving end of it. Costume people making you try on the ugliest things for several minutes before ultimately leaving you in the things you put on.
As a gay guy, I love most of the outfits and seeing hot guy was also a bonus. Julian McMahon's hairy chest, or that one random male seer with the crystal ball in that one episode 😂
@@TCt83067695 He very briefly appears in one of the episodes, forget which one, but the magical creatures find shelter at the charmed one's home. Among the creatures is a male seer with a crystal ball, and of course Phoebe notices him 😂
The clothes in charmed reflect the fashion of that time. I was a teenager in the 90s and wore some of the things the sisters did (examples being crop tops, spaghetti straps and cargo trousers). In the UK we had ladette culture and girl power, freedom of expression and empowerment. I do agree that some of the wardrobe choices for Phoebe were questionable in the context of her work environment in seasons 5 and 6. Really enjoyed this balanced and informative video on one of the shows I will always love.
I admit I was wary at the start, but I understand your agreements not a hundred percent agree, i.e I do believe the male gaze can be a thing but there is nuance in that idea. Some of my favourite characters are sexy and pretty and but it because of their personalities not their looks. A hollow I'm sexy and I know it character is just as bad as a hollow, I am a strong female character but that is because it is hollow but the character type. There is a reason people love Bayonetta in my circles of the internet but dislike Quiet. But I admit I did not mind and even lovesome famous Mary sue characters because yes they are wish fillment and it is my wishes getting filled.
I haven't played Quiet's game but I think I remember reading that the intent with her was to actually create a woman who seemed objectified and then show more layers and subvert people's perceptions 🤔
@@BetterWithBob what I have seen it wasn't successful but I think certain characters are framed by your perspectives walking in, because I will always love Rey and the sequel movies no matter how bad they are because they were the first time I laughed since my mum died and dad loved her because I loved her if that makes sense? English needs a word for things you care about or hate because someone you love cares deeply about it.
I feel when it comes to the outfit choices, I am of the fan opinion Charmed has very questionable, yet very entertaining fashion. In fact the tacky fashion is one of the best parts of the show. It is progressive in that women got a say in what they wore or wore what they wanted to. And yeah, you're right, people can wear what they want to. For me where it can fall apart is context or how it feels in scene. Prue's knitwear in Season 1 for instance is old fashioned, but worked to enforce her character and nature at that time, loosening up her wardrobe by Season 2, and while I can love Phoebe's outfits some of them were just weirdly designed or didn't fit given the environment she was in. Like how she'd often wear skimpy outfits at work for instance. You can wear what you want, but you also have to know when and where to wear them. I have a particular style, but if an environment calls for me to wear something approciate. Then you have things like her jean halter top from Season 2's Awakened, her pantaloons in Season 4 and her infamous Cinderella dress, which even with these standards applied are just bad outfits outright. It just doesn't work. A lot of the times none of the outfits worked well together, even as an out of an ordinary thing, they came off as a sore thumb. I also think Seasons 5 and 6 could go too far in wanting to show off the girls in skimpy ways, like their walk sequence in Valhalley of Dolls.
That wasn't something exclusive to Charmed though. It was happening in shows and films all over the place. Characters were always dressed too glamorously for their jobs because at the time audiences weren't as insistent about realism, or the higher ups didn't believe they were. And really, Phoebe for Seasons 5-6 is the girlfriend of the paper's owner and also "doubled our readership" according to Elise, to the point where she admits she won't be fired for the incident in Forget Me Not because of what an asset she is, plus they make a point that her branding is as the glamorous, hip advice columnist who's often booked out for public appearances, so she would be expected to dress up a bit. And I worked at a radio station for a bit in the 2000s when all that stuff was in, and what you see Phoebe wearing wasn't too different from what was worn there - plenty of short skirts, plunging necklines and high fashion outfits among the younger female staff. Not too many bare midriffs because Ireland didn't really get the temperatures for them.
the jean-halter still works ok on her in its context, imo, even though would have maybe looked better if less worn-faded..I agree that it is an oddball piece..
I think the shows fashion was extremely realistic for the women and even the men in charmed. They were all women in their 20s and early 30s and thats a time where women normally experiment with fashion and take risks and dye/cut their hair during big times in their lives. Their P3 club clothes were of that of women during that time. Their work clothes is what me and my friends in their 20s attempted to wear to work and receive the write up or long emails anyway because we didnt care we owned our sexualities and we took risks in corporate settings. Of course the fantasy costumes were risky for years we saw mermaids depicted as the costume alyssa milano wore and the valkyrie costume was that of a confident cool feminine warrior look at Zena! but it was FANTASY! thats is what FANTASY is about and it made the story line in charmed sooo much more believable. Even Hollys choice not to wear a push up bra or bra in general is BELIEVABLE to women! All the women i know want to burn their bras! lol All and All the fashion was done right! Thanks Eilish!!!
Tight clothing with midriffs showing was the STYLE in the early 2000's! They were dressed for the time the show was made. The first two seasons were filmed in the 90's when darker aesthetics were popular, so the show reflected that. The rest took place in the early 2000's when the above forementioned styles (plus Y2K, whale tales, appropriating styles from other cultures, etc) were popular.
Picture it: 50-year-old man, happy wife, great teenage daughter...and then Charmed appeared. We all sat back and let the show wash over us, bringing us joy. And today, I don't understand all the examination and criticism. Charmed, in every regard, is perfect. Anyone who disagrees can just SHUT UP.
I remember watching charmed for the first time I always thought the show it was appealing only for girls but The reason to my skin at the same time they did it to attract boys I mean majority behind the scenes they were men who were directing a show and writing the episodes and the storyline so there wasn’t too much women producing Charmed The TV series couldn’t be typically are so only for women so this is why one of the sisters child they have to be sexier than ever please the male gaze so they could have a lot of fans like that the audience can relate to the series So every two different genders could be attached to the characters so this is why everyone Likes charmed to this day If there was more female writers and female directors or producers Maybe the TV series would I have more experience about femininity instead of men trying to explain women femininity
It was an advertising thing in the 2000s that they tried to aim for the 18-24 demographic because they thought they'd be easiest to snag. Now however they've shifted to women between 35 and 55, meaning the type who are likely to be wives and mothers and therefore controlling the purchasing decisions of a household - which is why you now see all this excessive shirtlessness in everything. There were actually plenty of female writers on the show - IMDB lists Constance M Burge, Edithe Swensen, Sheryl J Anderson, Valerie and Vivian Mayhew, Krista Vernoff, Monica Breen, Alison Schapker, Nell Scovell, Abbey Campbell, Laurie Parres, Andrea Stevens, Jeannine Renshaw, Julie Hess, Debra J Fisher, Erica Messer, Natalie Antoci, Elizabeth Hunter, and Liz Sagal. Most of these women were also producers, executive producers and story editors. A lot of males too but the ratio between them is more even than you might think. Showrunners do have the final say on edits and rewrites though, but even then Alyssa and Holly often had to take over and do rewrites themselves on set because they couldn't get the writers room on the phone.
@@BetterWithBob Okay then thank you for reminding me I have heard of her Monica Breen but I thought she was the only one and she was supposed to be the director of the Buffy reboot with Josh Whedon but it never happened at the moment They were female writers okay but I never knew that they were more Women writers so that’s a good thing but The producer of the show was Aaron spelling and other producers Shouldn’t have been more female producers
Wow can't believe how well this is done some points are hard to work through (not explicitily bc the video but bc they are serious topics and require reflection ) so worth having the conversation. Great video
Thanks for mentioning the great Montgomery Clift, as he is one of the best dramatic actors to have ever graced the screen. My dad was the one who introduced me to many of his movies, and I hope more people discover those cinematic gems. I also completely agree with your and your collaborator's perspective on the "male gaze"/feminist argumentation. A shame we seem to be regressing since the 90s-00s (when I was a kid watching this show, admiring the empowered charmed ones). It seemed there were certain aspects of culture back then where we were more progressive than we are now.
They have always been my favorite fashion icons for feminine empowerment. I still want to grow up to look like the Charmed sisters and I want to give all of the actresses major kudos for being so vocal and brave and thinking about all of the women watching.
You’re making an argument about representing different characteristics in female characters, and then being so condescending about modern films showing female characters in a storyline other than finding a man. It is enormous progress for women to have a small number of films & tv shows made where the goal is not pairing them off - something men get all the time. Likewise it’s progress for women not to have to be young, skinny & sexy all the time. Your sneering of modern films for finally allowing this side of women to exist on screen, completely contradicts your points about women being allowed to be varied & make their own choices.
As a female fan I didn't mind the sexy outfits and wished I felt comfortable to wear some of the sexy outfits they wore. With that being said, some of the costumes like the "Cinderella" dress looked tacky. And some of the outfits just weren't my style anyway.
Great content, fabulous video. Thank you so much for contributing to stopping that mad anti-feminine movement. I am a very feminine woman, always loved to wear dresses, worked as a ballerina, then a burlesque. Being feminine is not toxic, but strong and in control. Maybe it's because I was a 90s teenage goth and dancer, but the lack of female support and sisterhood is mostly gone these days.
In the latest House of Halliwell podcast Holly Marie Combs even said she did wear her own jeans. It was the perfect fit for her. And I felt less uncomfortable in my skin cause I always wear jeans.
Absolutely. As a person with a deep love of these sorts of topics it gets INCREDIBLY frustrating when, as you said, people only have a surface level, pop psychology (or pop whatever) knowledge of the subject. It's always more complicated than just thing bad! Sadly, a lot of people, especially right now, are desperate to be able to finger wave and say, yes, thing bad! And just leave it at that. I really enjoyed this video. I was expecting a break-down on the different types of clothes they wore, which ones were the best and stuff like that, but this was better.
Last paragraph - but wouldn't that have been _problematic_ coming from a male narrator? **faints in wokeism** 😉😅 I fully agree that there's a surface level "thing is popular so thing bad" narrative. But I still agree with critics who say it was terrible that the show execs were asking how would they get professional and extremely talented actresses naked to drive ratings. Those are toxic work conditions and should not be excused in any workplace ie not just Charmed.
Oh I can give a rough list of my favourites lol Prue - Ms Hellfire outfit (both), blue strapless dress from Pardon My Past, silver top from Coyote Piper, black wedding dress from Bride & Gloom, silver club top from Sight Unseen, Halloween costume from All Halliwell's Eve, colourful halter top from end of Be Careful What You Witch For, black dress, leather jacket and blonde hair from Morality Bites, black seethrough top in All Hell Breaks Loose, seethrough sweater and long skirt in Wicca Envy Piper - red top and black pants from Charmed & Dangerous, white tank top from Forget Me Not, blue turtleneck from Wrestling With Demons, black t-shirt and jeans from Y Tu Mummy Tambien, Valkyrie outfit, pink poncho from Crimes & Witch Demeanors, black dress for the party in Pardon My Past, white top with flowing sleeves in Saving Private Leo, purple top from the end of Witch Way Now Phoebe - white blouse and corset combo in Brain Drain, red corset in Sight Unseen, purple top, bodywarmer and bandana in Once Upon A Time, blue strapless dress in Witch Trial, purple thingy in A Paige From the Past, US flag tube top at the end of A Knight to Remember, white camisole in Battle of the Hexes, pink sweater and jeans in Wrestling With Demons, black bejewelled tank top and jeans in Hell Hath No Fury, evil look with the mohawk in It's a Bad Bad World, pink top from Gone With the Witches, mermaid outfit, blue tube top from Mr and Mrs Witch, tube top and white pants in Styx Feet Under, red sweater with hair net in Baby's First Demon, the thingy in The Torn Identity, floral patterned blouse in The Jung and the Restless...mostly anything from Season 4 or 8 Paige - pink ruffled blouse and plaid skirt from A Knight to Remember, Evil Enchantress green dress, pink dress from Charmed Again Part 2, green top and long denim skirt from Brain Drain, orange top from The Day Magic Died, black dress from the end of Sense and Sense Ability, green tank top and straightened hair from The Sword in the City, grey tank top and really short skirt from Styx Feet Under, yellow t-shirt and red pants from Cat House, white sweater and denim skirt from A Paige From the Past, white 60s outfit from Witchstock, the combo from Kill Billie Vol 2 and Forever Charmed, peach top from Siren Song
@@TCt83067695 Oh, absolutely. But that doesn't mean that women (and enbies, and intersex people, and femme men) don't need to hear the message that you can own your body, your appearance. You can be sexy and still taken seriously. Both can exist at once.
@@gideongrace1977 1000%. You're right. Both did in fact exist at once on Charmed. I'm just saying the exec part *shouldn't* exist and the empowering part, where the character and or the actresses get to choose, should continue to exist.
@@BetterWithBob Ohhh, man. EXCELLENT CHOICES. A lot are also my faves. Of course, now I have to give my lists. Prue - also definitely the outfits from Ms. Hellfire, the outfit from All Hell Breaks Loose, the time period appropriate outfit from All Halliwell's Eve, and the blonde hair and the dress from Morality Bites, the outfit from Deja Vu All Over Again (I feel like it just really fits the moment), the black dress in Dead Man Dating, the sweater outfit from Wicca Envy, the pink floral top in Be Careful What You Witch For (but especially when she's wearing it as a teen). The thick sweater in Sight Unseen. But Prue's season finale outfits seem to be my favorite. Piper - the floral dress in Apocalypse Not, the red tank top in Coyote Piper, the Valkyrie outfit in Valhalley of the Dolls, the fury look in Hell Hath No Fury, the outfit from Forget Me...Not, the black jaket outfit from Vaya Con Leos, the outfit with the scarf in The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell, the red top in Charmmageddon, the dress in Show Ghouls. But I don't like Piper's oufits quite as much because they tend to be so much more pared down. Phoebe - the tank top outfit from She's a Man Baby, a Man!, the white crop top in The Painted World, the jacket outfit in Astral Monkey, the shiny crop top in The Devil's Music, the blue tank top outfit in Charmed Again, Part Two, the pink net top in The Fifth Halliwheel, the black and red top from Witch Wars, the blue top and the beige sweater in We're Off To See The Wizard. And the mohawk outfit from It's a Bad, Bad, Bad World. And I can't find the episode, but in season 5, that little white crocheted hat she wears with the short hair, I loved that. And her hair, just in general. She really pulled off all the different hairstyles she had, and there were a lot of them. Paige - the white dress in A Witch's Tail, the crop top and choker in Witch Way Now?, the red and white top in The Fifth Halliwheel, the red top and the yellow hat in A Knight To Remember, also the evil enchantress green dress, the vampire outfit in Bite Me but also the crop top and jeans from that episode, the outfit from Size Matters where she's licking the lollipop, the black dress in Sense and Sense Ability, the teenager outfit in A Paige From The Past, the orange top from The Day The Magic Died, and the red dress from Death Becomes Them. I also find it fascinating the way Paige goes from bold, bright colors to mostly black and white and like lots of silky, satiny things in later seasons. Also, also, I wanted to say that I've seen how soooooo many of the comments are people being like, "But! But! It is bad!" And worse, being like, "Oh, yes, I love your stuff, totally agree, but super don't actually at all." Like. You put that whole well worded statement at the beginning of the video and it seems a lot of people didn't hear that and it sucks and I'm sorry that's a thing. Like, I've wanted to yell about it and it's not even my video. So it must be even more frustrating for you.
Sorry, but you just don't get it. When I wear something sexy because I want to - that's empowering. And I do it a lot, don't get me wrong. But when someone FORCES me to wear a skimpy outfit - that's oppression. I dress exclusively for myself. If I wear sweats it's because I want and I wear lingerie because I want it. You can be sexy without skimpy. You can be feminine without sexy, even. Sexy and feminine is not just "more skin". Unfortunately, as interviews prove, the actresses felt forced to reveal skin. So yes, this was problematic and it was mostly about the male gaze and fan service. The outfits in the show were not empowering. And I find it hilarious that you say as much in the first 30 seconds of your video but then go on a 20 minute tangent to disagree with your first statement.
So you are gonna talk about the male gaze, you’re just gonna defend it? It would’ve been fine if you wanted to avoid politics & talk about fashion like you implied, but this is still all about politics.
A lot of the fashion from 2003-2007 was questionable. Not even just on the show. I’m talking about in general. I absolutely hated the era then as much as I do now. 🤷🏾♂️
I used to be more towards prue and phoebes styles, more prue as i like her dark and sultry look, the leather jackets etc but as im older i kinda like how paige dressed, it was fun and sexy and she always suited what she was wearing.
I love the outfits in Charmed except when they get to transform to Valkyries, superheroes etc. There style drastically changed because I think during the 90s most of the outfits are very structured. Just like in SATC the S1 outfits are not that fashion forward. I think the producers focuses on the characters personal style as the series progress as the year progress. Coz they see now the importance of fashion and individuality.
I mostly enjoyed the fashion whether it was sexy or modest. But the constant costumes in later seasons bothered me because they kinda replaced good writing. It felt like they based the plot of the episodes on the skimpy outfits they could put the characters in. So the outfits weren't the problem but a symbol for the general decline of the show.
As a teen I loved the wardrobe on Charmed, but I now as an adult and a working actor understand how little say and ability to consent those actresses actually had, especially in the early days when they would have had very little job security. To me I think the concept of “The Male Gaze” is a misnomer, I think it’s actually describing the producer/director/writers attempt to appeal to what they believe men want, and unfortunately it can be very reductive. And let’s be real here, production asking for more skin was 100% an attempt to cultivate a young male following. Its a good example of how gendered stereotyping harms everyone, not just women.
while they got away with changing their hair, alyssa did get a lot of shit for the pixie cut as far as i remember. and the fact that they even had to add in a stupid potion explanation for rose's red hair was so useless, like it's not unrealistic for a character to change their hair at the salon and then obviously not mention it again. shows that they felt like they "needed" to explain it
I believe they were worried that young viewers were fickle and wouldn't recognise the stars if the hair changed too drastically. Danielle Fishel begged for years to let them cut her hair on Boy Meets World and they only agreed if they could make an episode out of it
@@BetterWithBob Not changing your hair was a thing of the 'Aaron Spelling' era of television. He believed that audiences resonated with a character because of their 'look' and that extended to their hairstyle, e.g. Charlie's Angels. Especially during this era of television when networks relied on people tuning in to watch a show at the same time, same day every week - changing the main characters look too soon was perceived as a risk. In The House of Halliwell podcast, Holly revealed in the first season Aaaron Spelling was so strict about their hairstyles, that he wouldn't even let her put her hair up in a ponytail. She wanted to grow out her fringe (because it got in her eyes and it was a continuity issue, with different shots showing different fringe lengths) and it took two whole seasons of her GRADUALLY growing it out and slowly pushing it to the side before she could be fringe-less. She also said that when Alyssa shaved off her hair, Aaaron was livid - but by this point in the show, the show was so successfull that the actresses knew they had a bit more power - if they died or chopped of their hair, refused to hide their tattoos - and Aaaron really couldn't do much about it.
@@BetterWithBob probably true when you think about the young viewers, but i don't know if charmed was aware how young their viewers were at the time lmao
I hate so much the "who are you dressing up for?" like "b*tch, myself!" because one, it gives the implicit idea that a woman is "for" a man and two, it says that women are only allowed to be comfortable in baggy pants and long-sleeved sweaters, like no, I'm comfortable in a short skirt tyvm. And if you ARE comfortable in baggy pants, good, rock it, wear whatever YOU like. I hate pretty much any cry of "objectification!" bc no, some women wear those things bc they want to and crying that is what makes a problem in the first place. Some women wear short skirts or tight tops not to show skin, it just makes them feel good. In one season 7 ep, Paige was wearing a dress that on my last watch, I took a screenshot and attempted a reverse image search to find one like it to buy (I knew it was a long shot so while sad I didn't find, I wasn't exactly surprised) so people who say "'real women' would never wear that" guess I'm just a figment of your imaginations. An awesome figment who wears what I like regardless of who is or isn't looking
@@BetterWithBob a thing I was just thinking since I said this, so you want people to look and dress accordingly, is that so wrong if that's the entire aim? Sure, if you're not going for that and that's all someone sees, that says a lot for the person LOOKING but if that's the point, why is that so wrong? Not to mention the whole 'objectification' concept kind of goes into victim blame territory
As a woman who considers herself a feminist, this video felt yucky to watch. You can't show all these videos of women wearing "sexy clothes" and chalk it up to "well that's just the way things were in the early 00's". Plus it's an ignorant statement to make when Rose McGowan herself has been very vocal about her sexualization during her run in the show. Just because they stated in interviews (probably filmed DURING their run in their show and probably under strict contracts) that they picked their clothes doesn't make it a true statement. They're obviously not going to upset the studio they're currently employed by.
I never had a problem with their outfits. What was always odd to me was they could wear the skimpiest outfts pretty much leaving nothing to the imagination, but they had to blur out or cover up their real life tattoos.
They were costumed to be sexualized, not empower females. Majority of the time theor outfits were grossly out of place,mainly phoebe. Never holly. Sometimes rose and shannen.
I had zero problem with any of the costumes on their own, but I had a HUGE problem with the show runners thinking that if they put Alyssa Milano in pasties, we would be duped into thinking the show was doing good storytelling. I resent and reject the implication that anyone who doesn't like gratuitous skin is just "jealous." I'm way more jealous of how good the characters looked in their modest clothes. But they replaced storytelling with costume design and expected the fans not to notice. But we did.
I was a very young kid when I started watching charmed. tv would just be left on and that was what was aired in my house. I had to have been 3 or 4 when I started watching it (so it was 2003-2004) and I loved their outfits. I watched that show alongside sailor moon and I loved the more skimpier outfits. I never compared my body to the girls, I saw them as dolls. They weren't real to me. I didn't care if i had any fat, It meant nothing to me. I figured I'd get to a body like that eventually if i really wanted to. There was something I always favored about each main girl. Prue's light eyes, Piper's parental role, Phoebe's perfectly white vampire-esk fangs, Paige's pale Snow White skin and bloody red lips, and Billie's layered blonde hair, blue eyes, and tiny waist. They were my ideal of perfect, they were dolls, they weren't real and I loved every bit of it. Obviously there was always more for me to latch onto with the girls but that was always something for me to focus on. I loved how thin they were, and I don't think it was bad for them to have "unrealistically" thin bodies. They weren't real, not meant to be compared. I never even thought about comparing them to myself. I'm so tired of people complaining about it. If you're sensitive to it or triggered by it then don't watch it and find something else, and if you still want to watch it then suck it up and watch.
1:42 - I have to agree on that. Also - "Pop-feminist buzz-words" sounds quite passive-aggressive and condescending towards anyone who doesn't agree with the stated opinion. Especially when it comes to objectification. Objectification, ha? You still believe in that modern feminist propaganda, young lady - grow up. 2:08 - there isn't a single feminist that ever said that. I'm serious the "sexiness" has never been a problem for feminism, sexism was and still is. Red carpet isn't really a good example of what a "real woman" would wear cause most women simply wouldn't be able to afford those gowns or to wear them on Daily bases. Is this whole video simply going to be - modern feminists are stupid, male gaze doesn't exist? Cause I am a so called modern feminist who also loves fashion and gravitates towards more revealing (even tough more androgynous) type of clothes and I might have to call bull_. 3:27 - no, literally no-one has never said that. 60-70s TV series especially Doctor Who were a pure example of - "A real woman wouldn't wear that" when after another episode where the main heroine was forced by directors to go hiking in heels and a short skirt and clearly struggled female viewers were so tired they were writing letters asking producers to stop dressing their leads in clothes least suitable for the occasion. Actresses on the show were pretty vocal about it as well. That's the male gaze. It's not about erasing queer men experience. It's about straight men only willing to watch movies if all the female leads are bangable, and them being infuriated by "unrealistically ugly" heroines in new videogames and directors of said movies enforcing those stereotypes. There's nothing wrong about a female character willing to look beautiful and to dress-up. And yet it is a problem when it becomes the screenwriters (and hers as the result) main and only priority in every scenario. I don't think Charmed as a TV series promoted any of those ideas, but I don't agree with your take either. The idea of Spice girls was stolen from a non-commercial anti-capitalist punk-rock girl band and watered down to be more palatable to a broader audience. From the beginning it was not about women empowerment, but about making money and selling merch. And those were the early 2000s. There was exactly one way to be a woman according to mass-media - skinny, flat stomach, conventionally attractive and preferably white.
… I found your channel a month or two ago through Charmed algorithm nonsense, and now I learn you know Song and Liana,who I have been following for years!?
*I'm actually shocked the network let Alyssa cut her hair that short. I mean dying your hair blonde is one thing but chopping it all off is an entirely different thing. I think the Network went ballistic over Rose's red hair and shorter hair but to her defence, she had never really worked in tv before and that you needed approval*
Rose simply broke the rules of her contract in messing drastically with her hair..she signed on on the basis of such pretty reasonable conditions...in addition to which, Paige looked way-hot with her original hair-colour anyway..but like a bottle-blonde dark-roots disaster with the blonde/red .. She says in interviews that 'they kept making her re-sign"..I don't see how they can make her re-sign new seasons new contracts...they CAN enforce the existing contract...as can she. If she did not want to be on the show, or had had it after 1 season, why did she continue at all? I guess maybe that it was a pretty good paying TV gig which might have led to other career stuff..I guess maybe because in spite of all the conflict we have heard about..she was benefitting..
I don't think it was written into her contract that she had to keep her hair a certain way. Just that there was a mandate from the network that the actors needed permission before they did so. It was sort of an accepted thing in the industry that you didn't drastically alter your appearance too suddenly back then. Nowadays no issue when you can do an Instagram post She says in her book that she signed a five season contract, being told that they'd likely only be on the air for a couple more seasons, as they only wanted to get to syndication and back then you usually got that with five seasons. They kept getting renewed and she probably could have broken contract if she really didn't want to come back, but she needed the work after Harvey Weinstein blacklisted her
I just find it a fundamentally flawed theory that Laura Mulvey herself admits was never meant to be one. At best, it was a response to a super specific type of mainstream filmmaking from the late 60s and 70s that was rooted in the collapse of the Hays Code and now being able to show nudity on camera, which was pretty much gone by the 80s. It's also rooted in outdated stereotypes from Second Wave Feminism that said every man was a potential enemy, meaning that for it to hold up, you have to generalise every single man in the world as thinking exactly the same regardless of other factors. It was rendered obsolete by the Third Wave in the 90s that instead stressed how everyone was an individual, and no one group's experience was a monolith. It's just not very useful as a theory, and seems to go 'thing bad because I say so' as opposed to starting a conversation. I find it more useful to ask 'what messages are being sent here?', 'what other factors are involved in this presentation?', 'why do I feel this way when I see this?', 'is this open to interpretation?' etc
I think it has less to do with jealousy in regards to turning public opinion against Jessica Rabbit, but more to do with times of economic/political paranoia and depression. In times of prosperity and peace, women tend to experiment more with their clothing and sexuality, such as in the Roaring 1920s and then again starting in the late 60s - 90s as the Cold War slowly started to wound down. Fashions and attitudes became more conservative starting in 1930s during the Great Depression, continuing through 1940s World War II and 1950s nuclear paranoia and Cold War. Our current financial crisis and environmental crisis coincides with another rise in pearl-clutching.
I totally get the message of this video but I still have to admit the fact that male gaze issue still very much does exist. Like, there's a certain spectrum between what we see in media. It could be women wanting to own their sexuality, just like what you presented us with Charmed characters and actresses... And the other side of the spectrum is these atrocious oversexualized fanservice character designs that we see in mostly animated media (anime, certain videogames etc.). Moral of the story is: the issue is much more compicated. We need to draw a line between complex characters who just happen to be conventionally sexy and characters who's existense is just for the sake of "OMG BOOBZ".
0:39 just take the L dude. The comments have called you in. I’m not watching this one. Since everyone harped enough on the male gaze stuff, I’ll just stick to what I saw. Delegitimizing the terms ‘objectification’ and ‘problematic’. It doesn’t really require much explanation, just please reflect on your privileged position to dismiss these words so flagrantly
2:48 k… ummm this is opinion and viewpoint not fact. (But you stated it as fact.) Also… not really any type of feminist analysis. (Or terribly sloppy) Which no one really asked for. I think we all expected a much different video. And the male gaze is not outdated or obscelete by intersectionality 🙄 Nor does the theory of the male gaze have anything to do with “all men are the same.” The male gaze is absolutely still part of actual feminist theory. I like this channel but.. just no on this whole take. As if the concept of male gaze or women being oversexualized is not valid because sexy woman is empowering.
I just don't understand why people mention "male gaze" as something that the creators of Charmed did to make the show popular. The target audience for this show was girls (at that time time I wasn't even a teen myself). The world just got crazy with this woke agenda 😢
It's based on stereotypes, but so is media marketing. So the male gaze in media exists in the same way that attempts to pander to women based on dumb stereotypes do. Especially since aggressively marketing shows with a primarily female audience to men by adding badly designed costumes and badly written stuff to the mix. If it actually fits the narrative organically, fine, but we're not dumb, getting it shoehorned in tells us that the creators think that making *us* happy isn't enough.
I always questioned the skimpier outfits, especially given the fact that these characters had to often physically fight Demons. It was apparent that the network was trying to lure in more viewers, meaning men. I didn't think it was necessary to put them in such tight-fitting clothes just for the sake of attracting male viewers.
I do agree with your main opinion here. As a woman, being feminine and wanting to embrace your sexuality doesn't make you any less of a feminist. Personally, I admire women with the confidence to wear whatever they want and own it. My problem with the fashion of charmed was that it wasn't done in the name of feminism. Not really. I've often heard this said of the producers that their issue of the week was often 'How can we get the girls naked?' And this was definitely during the Brad Kern seasons. It was also one of the things he and Constance M. Burge disagreed on. Her concern was the sisterhood element, his initially started out as being over Phoebe's love-interest, but evolved into how he could get our main interests into skimpy costumes to boost ratings.
The stories and the characters were written with some meaning and entertainment (give or take some seasons), but executed differently, depending on the influence the choice of costume has. The woman in the costume department left charmed, not because she believed the show, or the women in it to be toxic, but because she saw the signs of where the show was heading and sensed that the producers didn't care about feminism anymore. Not truly. Phoebe was already a sultry, yet confident, intelligent and caring character (excluding all that Cole stuff!) especially in the first, three seasons. They didn't need to keep on pushing her sexuality to the forefront because we already knew who she was at this point. But because Alyssa Milano didn't object, and because it's a proven fact that sex sells, the powers that be decided to put her in golden pasties. It wasn't done for female empowerment; it was done to sell the show to a bigger audience.
I can't blame the lead actresses for defending a show they put so much work into for a solid eight years. They did their jobs admirably and I can see the positive feminist elements of the show when they're there. Even the fashion of the first few seasons was inoffensive and often well-chosen. When there was a silly outfit, there was a better reason for it than just: 'magic did it'. Does magic want to put you into golden pasties, midriff ballgowns and leather bikinis? If so, magic is pretty perverted. On top of that, some of the costumes of charmed are just ugly, in general. Even for the time period, there were much nicer clothes to wear than half of the outfits Phoebe has donned on the show.
I like your video, for the most part. But I don't think that criticisms of the shows costuming should be disregarded because it can be perceived as jealousy or toxic feminism. It's great that you've acknowledged that a woman is no less a feminist for wanting to be feminine; the original meaning of feminism is to give our sex the credit and equality they deserve. But I am certain of this; the costuming of charmed might've started out well enough, but in the Brad Kern era, it had nothing to do with empowering women. The goal of making money off of sex appeal overpowered the need of empowering, female protagonists.
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yea exactly, kern wasn't about empowering anyone, it was about getting more views because sex sells (and kern was also a creep to no one's surprise)
Beautifully said! 👏🏻👏🏻
Perfectly summed up my feelings!
You said so much of what I was thinking while watching this. I just want to add/reemphasize for @BetterWithBob a few more points...
I not only grew up during this time, but also as a girl who was affected (like many young girls) by the treatment of women’s bodies during the late 90s-early 00s. @BetterWithBob, your arguments that women showing skin was a means of empowerment ignores several facts:
1. As @juliamontgomery7312 said, Brad Kern - a male executive - very specifically chose to put the leads in skimpy outfits to draw in a male audience. There was no other reason. It was not a decision made by women for the purposes of empowerment. This is also the case with the other examples from that period you provided where male executives, show runners, producers, etc. sometimes coerced their performers to dress that way or risk losing their jobs. Of course the performers are going to defend it while they are on the show and their jobs could be at risk for speaking out. Once they are off the show, it's another story, which brings me to...
2. Women from this era have expressed extreme discomfort with what they were forced to wear. They spoke not only on how uncomfortable they were being stripped down and on display, but also spoke on the practical issues that the tight, revealing clothing and heels left them constricted, cold, and in pain. (You blow over the fact that all three original Charmed leads have expressed this.) It’s not exactly empowerment if the women in these situations do not have the power to decide if this is what they want to wear.
3. Part of wearing these outfits was that it came with expectations of being a size 0. IIRC, AM openly discussed difficulty staying warm due to the demands that she stay unhealthily skinny and forced to dress in almost nothing, as well as constantly being monitored to stand and position herself a certain way to hide any sign of possible fat. HMC refused to comply with the size standards and was, subsequently, given a much more modest wardrobe. If it really were about appreciating women's bodies, she would have had the same outfits as her co-stars. (None of this even goes into the damage this did to young women’s self-esteem at that time and the increase in ED.)
4. These wardrobes moments were used when they didn’t make narrative sense. Phoebe wearing a skimpy outfit at P3, cool. Good for her. I’ll even give a pass to Prue in Ms. Hellfire. But Paige and Phoebe having their shirts chopped up to expose their shoulders and midriffs while patients in a mental health facility? No justification other than to be eye candy for a tv audience. Same with Prue wearing heels and constricting clothes while running up a wall. It makes no sense that the character would risk breaking her ankle or limiting her mobility in that situation. From a character standpoint, it characterized Prue as stupid and impractical, of which she was neither. In comparison, there is a scene with Phoebe training and she is wearing revealing gym wear, but at least the sports bra in this scenario is practical and contextually justified. Prue could have worn something like that and bike shorts if they were really about being proud of her body. But no, they put her in a wonder bra, which means no support and all sorts of boob pain after their workout.
I am all for people dressing as they wish, but the wardrobe of Charmed was not about women’s empowerment or bodily autonomy. The cast of Charmed, The Spice Girls, (underage) Britney Spears and Christina Aguelera, etc. did not chose their wardrobes. They dressed as their almost exclusively male boss’s demanded.
Oh, I remember that fashion was one of the things I liked in the show. All sisters have their own style and it was interesting to see what they would wear in the next ep
It's one thing to contextualize the male gaze, it is another one entirely to deny it exits.
Yeah.
Aren’t you shocked that a man is supporting “women are sexual beings and that’s empowering” as… apparently the only valid viewpoint?
This guy agreed with a post insulting feminist on another one of his videos. He’s 100% into the show to watch half naked women and he doesn’t like that being called out.
*I love that Holly Marie said NO to a lot of the more sexy outfits that they tried to put her in even in photoshoots for the show*
I forget the source but apparently they tried to give her lines about Piper hating her body post pregnancy at the start of S7 and Holly just simply refused to read them. BAMF behavior right there.
And not lightly done in the 90s and 2000s aka the heroic chic era. Shannen and Alyssa got lots of flack for their weight too from what I'm told
@@BetterWithBob I know Holly gain weight over the series I think I read about it back in the day. didn't know about Shannen and Alyssa. were they called to skinny or to big?
@@TCt83067695 I'm glad she refused. they had never talked about their bodies on the show before why start?
Alyssa Milano had a depression & was getting a little overweight. See the first half of season 3
The problem with the clothes on Charmed isn't the clothes, its that they were sexed up by a male producer for ratings. As a teenage girl at the time, I never minded what they wore, and I was glad to later find out that they had some say in it, but I vividly remember the commercials/promos for the show in the later years and it was very much an attempt to capture the male gaze. The number of times they framed an episode around how naked they could get Alyssa is wild. The earlier seasons let them just be sexy regardless of what they wore, because they all are, but the later seasons didn't seem genuine about it and that was my problem with it.
Yep
Those teasers/promos for Charmed in mid to later season were WILD. They were often inaccurately titled & framed around their outfits.
You know I'm a long-term fan of your work, so please take this unnecessarily long comment in good faith. RUclips comments are a terrible medium for talking about social issues.
On the male gaze discourse: The male gaze is (unhelpfully named) term for the way that women are framed for a presumed straight male audience. It's a genuinely useful term. You're using the term "pop feminism" derisively, but you're also kind of uncritically making reference to the 90s decidedly pop feminist attitude that overt and visible sensuality (you know, more skin) is a statement of empowerment, even though that's a pretty nuanced topic with some serious issues. It can absolutely and uncomplicatedly be the case for some media, but there's a definite dual economy at times, where media companies can use the language of empowerment to avoid actual accusations of objectification. A couple of times in the video, you use in-universe reasons excusing objectification ("an evil being controlling Phoebe's body and violating it," characters' choices), but these were choices made in our world by studios with audience and profit in mind. If it will draw in more money, companies will titillate the straight male gaze (a long-ago proven method) and it's all the better for them if they can excuse it with a few buzz words. Pretending that there isn't a dual economy with these things can really get in the way of understanding the systems at play. I think the reason Lola Bunny was wearing a crop top was at least mostly for the male gaze, if we're being honest, even if the character can be read in a progressive way.
Coyote Ugly presents a really interesting example of how mixing narratives of female empowerment and the male gaze can create a very real tension. By pandering to the male gaze, they can achieve financial stability and success. By leaning in to their own objectification, they can be, in a sense, empowered. It's a story of women benefitting from systems of oppression through accepting and perpetuating it. Is that the kind of empowerment that a feminist movement should uncritically espouse?
Honestly, I just think it's worth taking objections with regards to issues around the male gaze seriously, even if you take them as examples of wider systems of oppression, not as bad choices by individuals or studios.
But its in the ed empowering , like they have fundoing shows. Yes they earn money, but in coyote ugly they still have fun doig that. And it does make her way more confident to go out of her comfort zone and explore herself and that she can just do that scene stealin bar dance. Which that women there take pride in if i remember right.
Thats not opression, people are horny often, people want tolook good, and maybe sshe in that movie likedd that she can do that even if its not what sh wants in life.
Looking good and sexy can be self empowering too, or enoying the attention, or just, looking pretty, or sexy.
If thats duality, its not a serious criticism, then anythig is a duality, because people like seeing stuff they like.
Ok what has mot a "male gaze" if i lookl at yaoi, that are very female main targeted, often by women, mens gaze.
To seriously talk about that, throw out itss mn opresssing women, and nor just people objectifying people.
That falls apart if we look how women do objectify men too in, messd up romance stories. Not aklways, but yaoi, yeah thats Not top mention that women write weird very sexualizing stuff under else about women.
I think why that statemnt that its invalid is that male gaze does maybe ignore women do it too.
And opressed by what? I also think its unfair calling it patrarchy when men are not the problem,
Because there are all kinds of factors why someone could be discriminated and that intersects. Men too, nonbinary, too. Because its more about power insituation and prejuduces than just gender.
Male gaze a word just ignores its not a "male" thing. I will agowledge that yeah men should be, moe open, but its not like youcan force people wth rute force to open up.And women are the problem too. And .. ok its an attitude problem or abuse by people, additional under capitalism. .
Ok male gaze iss jut reductive as term and too judgey on who is the problem. Tats why talking abou seriously you dont talk about male gaze, you talk about pery too sexualized above what they on camra deserve, or as people.
Great analysis
Thank you, I've been looking for a comment like this! I feel like he made a lot a valid and good point, but still somehow dropped the ball on male gaze. The Jessica Rabbit part confused me most, because he correctly identified, that she is a subversion of a trope, but only looked at the subversion and not the trope. And the trope is literally the objectification of women's bodies through the male gaze. And he used it as a counter-argument against the validity of the male gaze. That just didn't make sense!
I also strongly dislike that he discarded the male gaze as a concept, because not all men want the same thing, but also uncritically talked about female empowerment through owning their sexuality by wearing revealing clothing. Well, that doesn't empower every woman, so it should also be viewed as treating women's empowerment as a monolith and therefore be discarded as an argument, no?
This video feels very 50/50 for me, because he walked face first into many good points, yet somehow stilled missed the overall picture.
Because the problem is not that women show their bodies and sexuality in a media, it's problematic if it's unrelated (or worst counter-productive) to the narrative and is only used as a marketing technique to attract people to ogle the actresses bodies. Which happened a lot in later seasons. And if the actresses themselves confirm that impression, it's simply not empowerment, but objectification.
@@rainyhaze2053I feel like blokes just don’t like the term “male gaze” to be honest. Every single guy I’ve watched on RUclips either completely misses the point (eg justifies the male gaze because the female gaze exists and women objectify men too) or like Bob here gets things about 50/50 and I think in part it has to do with the actual name of the expression.
This comment is EVERYTHING
Where this analysis misses the mark a bit, is that you’re commenting solely on the characters, whereas the criticism focuses on the actresses.
Phoebe running around in a sexy top is empowering, but Alyssa being told to wear that by a man, isn’t.
Alyssa wasn’t told to wear it.
First time I don't agree with everything in one of your Charmed videos.. and that's OK! Lol.
Everyone knows when a woman dresses for herself that that's empowering, so this felt like an odd take on the fashion considering we all know behind the scenes that majority of the sexy outfits were being pushed by men. And if anything, the commentary from the cast showcases that they had to really fight for themselves -and sometimes lost. They can look back at it now fondly, but when they went through it back then, the truth is they were being objectified, and that is the reason people feel icky ab it. Not due to jealousy or not wanting to see women show more skin.
When you prefaced the video by saying you wouldn't be engaging in the "pop feminist" chat and talking ab the male gaze and objectifying women, I thought this was going to be about what the fashion said ab each character 😂
Instead, because you decided to leave "problematic" at the door, the analysis felt one-sided and oversimplified.
That being said, I am not a hater, still love ya channel, peace byee.
Exactly. Real women can absolutely do whatever they want! The thing is, these aren't real women. They're characters.
Thank you. You worded this better than I was able.
I was a kid back then and I love their fashion. The nanny, Buffy, Totally Spies, Clueless and Charmed's fashion were the best. Now I can dress like that LOL
Winx Club as well lol?
I think the skimpiness of their outfits never bothered me, even now looking back as a near 30yr old woman I still think if I had their abs i'd try some of those outfits myself (have to admit I loved Phoebes mermaid look), and I think people remember them being a LOT more revealing than they actually were (for instance the wood nymph dress actually comes across as more of a frumpy green pillowcase than something sexy). That said there were a number of post season 4 episodes where I questioned the reality of what Phoebe was able to wear to work without a disciplinary complaint. I know its weird to talk about 'reality' in a fantasy show, but there were some of her outfits that sort of amounted to an embellished bra and jeans, which looked great on her, but don't strike me as the type of thing that would be allowed in a 90s-00s corporate workplace.
Lol I guess we can hand wave it in Seasons 5 and 6 with the paper being owned by her boyfriend and nobody daring to tell the boss's girlfriend "you can't wear that"
Like many concepts the "male gaze" seems to have multiple interpretations..
For me it was always less about what they wore, but what the camera did. In many novies and shows, the camera "looks" like a horny straight male would.
Classic example: the transformers, where the "text" shows: this sexy lady is smart and capable, but the camera says: ooooh midriff!
In charmed, the camera mainly focussed on what the camera focussed on, showing them as a whole..so no, i wouldnd't call it male gazy..
Very good point
That's Michael Bay being his own unique brand of gross for sure. He already had Megan Fox in a bikini while she was underage
@@BetterWithBob he is extreme, that's true.
But there is a tendency for cameras often looking as a straight (horny) male would. (Even if the story does not support that angle)
Which as far as i know was the start of the discussion of male gaze.
It was then, sadly turned into a buzzword being used every time a woman is sexy...and "proven wrong" every time a man is sexy, even though sexyness was never the issue...
I also don’t think that “male gaze” is meant to be specific to all men. The same way toxic masculinity isn’t. It’s more of a societal/cultural issue that TENDS to happen.
I think that cultural jargon is an issue because MANY people with agendas misuse words to the point that the meaning gets distorted. (Not the OP)
To me, feminism has always been about women being empowered to live how they choose to.
I totally agree with this point, and it's why I never questioned the amount of skin shown while growing up. It just felt like they were wearing what they wanted, had their own styles and could be sexy or not, depending on their mood and regardless of the clothes they were wearing.
I love this channel, but I'm 10 minutes into the video and have heard a lecture about the male gaze and a mini video essay on Jessica Rabbit. I was expecting a season by season look at the best & worst outfits or something😂
Thanks! You saved me 14:50 min ❤
I usually love this the Charmed content. Idk I felt like this video was more a critique of 2023 view of the clothes and male gaze theory. Like I must have misinterpreted, I thought we were gonna talk about the clothes 😭. I’m 16 mins in and we have barely mentioned the clothing
I can't with you 😭🤦🏾♂️🤣
I guess I owe y'all a more light-hearted one on the clothes down the line lol
I love Paige’s Season 7 fashions and notice a big change in Phoebe’s wardrobe in Season 5 onward with Season 5(and 7) being my favorite wardrobe of hers.
I suppose Phoebe's wardrobe change in Season 5 is probably because now she's "Ask Phoebe" and getting a hefty source of income. She doesn't get a car of her own until this season too
this video comes across as defensive and barley descusses the amazing fashion on this show. it basicly 25 miniutes of its ok to dress sexy and show skin. yea we all know this, Feminism has been saying this for years that is what sl*t walk was about.
I wold love a video that actuly goes into the fashion of the show maybe you could do a colab with a fashion channel
seriously. it's the the chest close-ups while the girls are walking in slomo that people are side-eyeing - the actual male gaze of it all. the skimpy costumes aren't the problem on their own.
I'm a woman and I don't mind the clothes on charmed 🤷🏻♀️
I just wished I owed some of those outfits 😊
Me neither 🤷♀️ they’re beautiful & as exactly underlined here, it was normal 🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️
I also remember that at some point Phoebe started to wear too explicit and sexy outfit all the time and often it was not appropriate for the place in my opinion. Every episode was like 'let's see what else she will show this time'. And all her storyline suddenly started to revolve only around a new man she had every new season and seduction and sex.
and she was one of the producers of this show. i think she had a choice
@@DafnaSmith it does looked like she was enjoying it, especially that she was a producer for years
Seasons 5 and 6 were the only ones where she was ever that skimpy, and even then there were plenty of modest outfits. She wore on average 2-3 outfits per episode and there was usually one covering something
@@BetterWithBobPhoebe rode naked on a horse in season 7. They had all 4 women (although things weren't that bad with Prue/Shannen) dress skimpily because they wanted men to tune in. That's all. It had nothing to do with their powers, the shows' progression or anything else. And the male gaze is definitely a thing. The spike in male viewership after A Witch's Tale proved that. Show AM practically naked from the waist up for the better part of two hours, and men will tune in.
iconic and timeless, love their wardrobe
Holly had the best hair on the entire WB network I will die on the hill saying that
It was gorgeous and still is
I loved Holly's hair she could grow it so long and layered without extensions. I also loved the high ponytail with the bangs in season 1 and I loved her hair in Charmed and Dangerous
Her season 2 hair was my favorite, especially the first half.
one of the best heads of hair in Hollywood...Shawnee Smith maybe gave her a run...
Yass! I have always said this. My sisters and I revisit Charmed sometimes and it's never too long before I'm doting on Piper's hair. Utter perfection. ♥
My top favorite fashion will always be Prue’s style in Season 1. Simple yet sheek, distinguished, mature and sultry.
It was a hard adjustment for me as a kid when she started wearing more belly-bearing outfits in season 2 or 3. I was like "That's not what she would wear!! That's Phoebe clothes!!"
@@jerfuhrer2581prue was so beautiful in season 2 though. My favorite outfit was when she had that cropped pink cardigan on and the purple bra or whatever with the long skirt
@@jerfuhrer2581 towards the end of season 1 her fashion seemed to changed. she wore a few outfits that showed her belly towards the end. i Loved her fashion in season 1 also in Wicca Envy she worse some cool outfits
I never really focused on the fashion. What I did notice was that after Prue quit, she became more carefree in her clothes. My personal style is closer to Piper as I don't like showing off my body that much, not like some of the other sisters. What I also like about fashion, is that it gives each sister their own personality without telling us what is going on with them.
Very good point :)
I loved Paige’s fashion for her in her debut season 4, she was always dressed super funky and quirky and colorful
And she always had an article of green on in most of the S4 episodes. I heard green was either Paige or Rose's favorite color but I can't remember where I read that. It's been bugging me for months...
I love it, it was the season when she showed more of her artistic side and that reflected in her wardrobe. She tended to be the most out there in her style, but always cool!
*The outfits changed and more skin was shown after Constance M Burge left the show and Brad Kern took over*
When do you think Constance left the show and was there really no evidence of "skin" before she left?
@@TCt83067695 I think she left after season 4
@@TCt83067695 she left after season 4
She stepped down as showrunner in Season 2 when the clothes were already getting skimpier and was Executive Consultant until Season 5
best fashion moments in charmed: prue & paige
worst fasion moments: phoebe's low rise pants
Don't forget the Phoe-bangs! That was a really bad style choice.
While I love your content and absolutely cherish your Charmed coverage - it’s one of my favorite shows of all time - but I think your view is as limited as the opposite side. I personally would like to see less of women dressed like that so often because a man is writing them that way, but I don’t hate when women dress hot in shows, it’s just when it’s overboard or all the time. I think Charmed towed the line roughly 60/40, cuz you’re right, they often also wore an oversized sweater or regular jeans or something comfy, but the fact that they were pushed more to do it by men is the problem. Maybe I don’t speak to enough other women on this, lol, but I don’t think it’s strictly, “Women dressing hot is always bad,” or “Women dressing hot is always empowering.”
Chal 🙄
I agree with you. I thought this analysis had some good parts and some bad parts. All clothing is empowering, but only when the person chooses to wear them. If an actress chooses to wear sexy clothes, it's empowering. If the director tells her to wear it, not to tell a story but for ratings, it's not empowering, it's pandering to what society believes men want to see
Exactly. If it was the choice of the women then great, but it wasn’t.
If the storylines had come first, and the outfits chosen to match, with the input of the women… great. But they weren’t.
Some dude from the network has been quoted as saying “how can we get the girls more naked”. For example, the mermaid outfit being designed first, and then having to work out a story to showcase it second.
As a 12 year old who LOVED Charmed, I couldn't help but notice how unnecessary OVERsexualized these on-screen characters were at the time. Yes, everyone should be able to wear what s/he wants to wear, but "the industry's" influence on these things was and still is just massive. So in many ways, I don't agree with the content of this video. Compare, for example, the cover of Taylor Swift's albums (back then vs. her own version). And yes, fashion changes by time. But what about viewers for whom sexuality is not the most defining thing in life: can we get fictional characters with decent clothing to watch?
*My favourite outfit in the show was Holly Marie's outfit in the first episode. the long green top and green and black skirt and when Prue would wear leather jackets in season 1*
My favourite of hers is the red top she wore in Charmed & Dangerous. Her hair looked gorgeous the way it was done
For Prue my favourite is the blue dress and the necklace she wore in Pardon My Past
@@BetterWithBob I like the red top also and the Black lace shirt Paige worse in Charmed and Dangerous with the necklace
Just so we're clear, i just absolutely love, love, _love_ this channel. I always feel intellectually stimulated for lack of a better phrase.
10:57 - 11:04 While I think it's empowering and maybe because I'm a minority myself, i tend to agree with the critics saying that all the non white Disney heroines (mentioned here) and princesses (including the *offensive* Senator from Massachusetts #shade) all were sexualized in some form or another.
Yes an argument can be made that it's empowering because it made them full multi dimension women but its just interesting that Disney didn't do the same for the other white princesses when we were growing up.
I can't stop thinking about what that has done to a generation of us boys and how we now may/may not have grown up to be men who value women of different races differently.
I dunno. It's just something i think of sometimes.
Completely agree.
The original 1989 Ariel was white as they come and wore a bra throughout half the movie. Tiana from princess and the frog dressed modestly and so did Pocohantis. Sorry my spelling is bad.
So he mentioned Jessica Rabbit she looks white to me. I would argue disney has an even split of whites and non whies dressing immodestly.
@@Hi-jw7oq I think the shots and angles of the last one you mentioned (ie the *offensive* one I also mentioned) seemed more mature to me than did Ariel in her bra. The latter, Ariel, looked more like a harmless child than the former who looked more like a sexualized adult, which is ironic considering the real historic character was like 12.
But you may be right that I'm judging them through a 2023 lens rather than what they were in the time period when they came out.
@@TCt83067695 thats fair. I am a white woman and i lived in some countries where white skin was the minority and from personal expierence, i can tell you many fettishize white females as well.
Growing up in the 90s and 00s over sexualized culture simply fueled my own personal confidence and self esteem. It became GLARINGLY obvious that femininity, and its sexualization, has always demanded such an overwhelming amount of power that it terrifies those who do not poses it into wanting to control, oppress, and subjugate.
Disgustingly, however, the lusting of 'grown adults' (men/women/whatever insert) as i was a personal victim to it caused me to suppress the innate feminine in attempts to protect myself. Going through puberty at 11 made me wish to be a boy as mentally I was not ready to display a womanly body because DUH I was very much still a child.
charmed fashion was great every sister had different
I love all of their fashion phoebe and piper especially
You should make a part 2 highlighting the best outfit choices or a series of how the outfits describe each character in a lengthy less political way that makes fashion more fun and less sensitive. I enjoy your videos 🙏🏽🙏🏽
Perhaps one day lol
@@BetterWithBob I hope so, love to help out lol
this video is litteraly "let me, as a MAN, explain to you how sexy women with les cloth is actually good, and sexual misconduct in the world place is just non bothering to me"
totally agree!
Exactly! What an annoying video. I loved the show and was looking for a fun video looking at the show, the house, their fashions etc. But this seems like a grumpy anti feminist rant by a man who misunderstands and hates feminism.
To be fair, I really liked the Jessica Rabbit section.
As someone who just started to get into costuming, I love looking back at shows like this and realising that the clothes are so finely crafted for everyone as opposed to ‘yeah just put them in whatever’
Yeah I've had to be on the receiving end of it. Costume people making you try on the ugliest things for several minutes before ultimately leaving you in the things you put on.
As a gay guy, I love most of the outfits and seeing hot guy was also a bonus. Julian McMahon's hairy chest, or that one random male seer with the crystal ball in that one episode 😂
There was a male seer?
@@TCt83067695 He very briefly appears in one of the episodes, forget which one, but the magical creatures find shelter at the charmed one's home. Among the creatures is a male seer with a crystal ball, and of course Phoebe notices him 😂
@@TCt83067695 Woops, It was a male Oracle, not a seer haha. During the Titans episodes.
I still simp for Julian. Charmed was an early awakening for me.
@@erivida64 thanks. I'll have to check that out again cause I don't remember him still
The clothes in charmed reflect the fashion of that time. I was a teenager in the 90s and wore some of the things the sisters did (examples being crop tops, spaghetti straps and cargo trousers). In the UK we had ladette culture and girl power, freedom of expression and empowerment. I do agree that some of the wardrobe choices for Phoebe were questionable in the context of her work environment in seasons 5 and 6. Really enjoyed this balanced and informative video on one of the shows I will always love.
I admit I was wary at the start, but I understand your agreements not a hundred percent agree, i.e I do believe the male gaze can be a thing but there is nuance in that idea. Some of my favourite characters are sexy and pretty and but it because of their personalities not their looks. A hollow I'm sexy and I know it character is just as bad as a hollow, I am a strong female character but that is because it is hollow but the character type. There is a reason people love Bayonetta in my circles of the internet but dislike Quiet. But I admit I did not mind and even lovesome famous Mary sue characters because yes they are wish fillment and it is my wishes getting filled.
I haven't played Quiet's game but I think I remember reading that the intent with her was to actually create a woman who seemed objectified and then show more layers and subvert people's perceptions 🤔
@@BetterWithBob what I have seen it wasn't successful but I think certain characters are framed by your perspectives walking in, because I will always love Rey and the sequel movies no matter how bad they are because they were the first time I laughed since my mum died and dad loved her because I loved her if that makes sense? English needs a word for things you care about or hate because someone you love cares deeply about it.
I feel when it comes to the outfit choices, I am of the fan opinion Charmed has very questionable, yet very entertaining fashion. In fact the tacky fashion is one of the best parts of the show. It is progressive in that women got a say in what they wore or wore what they wanted to. And yeah, you're right, people can wear what they want to. For me where it can fall apart is context or how it feels in scene. Prue's knitwear in Season 1 for instance is old fashioned, but worked to enforce her character and nature at that time, loosening up her wardrobe by Season 2, and while I can love Phoebe's outfits some of them were just weirdly designed or didn't fit given the environment she was in. Like how she'd often wear skimpy outfits at work for instance. You can wear what you want, but you also have to know when and where to wear them. I have a particular style, but if an environment calls for me to wear something approciate. Then you have things like her jean halter top from Season 2's Awakened, her pantaloons in Season 4 and her infamous Cinderella dress, which even with these standards applied are just bad outfits outright. It just doesn't work. A lot of the times none of the outfits worked well together, even as an out of an ordinary thing, they came off as a sore thumb. I also think Seasons 5 and 6 could go too far in wanting to show off the girls in skimpy ways, like their walk sequence in Valhalley of Dolls.
That wasn't something exclusive to Charmed though. It was happening in shows and films all over the place. Characters were always dressed too glamorously for their jobs because at the time audiences weren't as insistent about realism, or the higher ups didn't believe they were. And really, Phoebe for Seasons 5-6 is the girlfriend of the paper's owner and also "doubled our readership" according to Elise, to the point where she admits she won't be fired for the incident in Forget Me Not because of what an asset she is, plus they make a point that her branding is as the glamorous, hip advice columnist who's often booked out for public appearances, so she would be expected to dress up a bit. And I worked at a radio station for a bit in the 2000s when all that stuff was in, and what you see Phoebe wearing wasn't too different from what was worn there - plenty of short skirts, plunging necklines and high fashion outfits among the younger female staff. Not too many bare midriffs because Ireland didn't really get the temperatures for them.
Pantaloons in S4? What episode is this, somebody pls?
@@TCt83067695 Season 4 episode 9 MUse to my Ears in the episode PHoebe wears pantaloons paired with a trench coat.
the jean-halter still works ok on her in its context, imo, even though would have maybe looked better if less worn-faded..I agree that it is an oddball piece..
@@Surgemaster2012 oh I think I kinda liked how casual the look was. Particularly when paired with the trench coat.
Thanks btw for reminding me
I think the shows fashion was extremely realistic for the women and even the men in charmed. They were all women in their 20s and early 30s and thats a time where women normally experiment with fashion and take risks and dye/cut their hair during big times in their lives. Their P3 club clothes were of that of women during that time. Their work clothes is what me and my friends in their 20s attempted to wear to work and receive the write up or long emails anyway because we didnt care we owned our sexualities and we took risks in corporate settings.
Of course the fantasy costumes were risky for years we saw mermaids depicted as the costume alyssa milano wore and the valkyrie costume was that of a confident cool feminine warrior look at Zena! but it was FANTASY! thats is what FANTASY is about and it made the story line in charmed sooo much more believable. Even Hollys choice not to wear a push up bra or bra in general is BELIEVABLE to women! All the women i know want to burn their bras! lol All and All the fashion was done right! Thanks Eilish!!!
I agree the gladiator outfit rocked on Phoebe...her short wet hairdo and the muscles carried it..
Tight clothing with midriffs showing was the STYLE in the early 2000's! They were dressed for the time the show was made. The first two seasons were filmed in the 90's when darker aesthetics were popular, so the show reflected that. The rest took place in the early 2000's when the above forementioned styles (plus Y2K, whale tales, appropriating styles from other cultures, etc) were popular.
I really loved that you put Cat Grant in in 18:25, I appreciate that a lot 😂❤
I stopped with Supergirl after a while but always loved Cat lol
Picture it: 50-year-old man, happy wife, great teenage daughter...and then Charmed appeared. We all sat back and let the show wash over us, bringing us joy. And today, I don't understand all the examination and criticism. Charmed, in every regard, is perfect. Anyone who disagrees can just SHUT UP.
Amen , I agree, I love all the seasons, and all the sisters, no judgments
I remember watching charmed for the first time I always thought the show it was appealing only for girls but The reason to my skin at the same time they did it to attract boys
I mean majority behind the scenes they were men who were directing a show and writing the episodes and the storyline so there wasn’t too much women producing Charmed
The TV series couldn’t be typically are so only for women so this is why one of the sisters child they have to be sexier than ever please the male gaze so they could have a lot of fans like that the audience can relate to the series
So every two different genders could be attached to the characters so this is why everyone Likes charmed to this day
If there was more female writers and female directors or producers Maybe the TV series would I have more experience about femininity instead of men trying to explain women femininity
It was an advertising thing in the 2000s that they tried to aim for the 18-24 demographic because they thought they'd be easiest to snag. Now however they've shifted to women between 35 and 55, meaning the type who are likely to be wives and mothers and therefore controlling the purchasing decisions of a household - which is why you now see all this excessive shirtlessness in everything.
There were actually plenty of female writers on the show - IMDB lists Constance M Burge, Edithe Swensen, Sheryl J Anderson, Valerie and Vivian Mayhew, Krista Vernoff, Monica Breen, Alison Schapker, Nell Scovell, Abbey Campbell, Laurie Parres, Andrea Stevens, Jeannine Renshaw, Julie Hess, Debra J Fisher, Erica Messer, Natalie Antoci, Elizabeth Hunter, and Liz Sagal. Most of these women were also producers, executive producers and story editors. A lot of males too but the ratio between them is more even than you might think. Showrunners do have the final say on edits and rewrites though, but even then Alyssa and Holly often had to take over and do rewrites themselves on set because they couldn't get the writers room on the phone.
@@BetterWithBob Okay then thank you for reminding me I have heard of her Monica Breen but I thought she was the only one and she was supposed to be the director of the Buffy reboot with Josh Whedon but it never happened at the moment
They were female writers okay but I never knew that they were more Women writers so that’s a good thing but The producer of the show was Aaron spelling and other producers Shouldn’t have been more female producers
Wow can't believe how well this is done some points are hard to work through (not explicitily bc the video but bc they are serious topics and require reflection ) so worth having the conversation. Great video
Thanks for mentioning the great Montgomery Clift, as he is one of the best dramatic actors to have ever graced the screen. My dad was the one who introduced me to many of his movies, and I hope more people discover those cinematic gems.
I also completely agree with your and your collaborator's perspective on the "male gaze"/feminist argumentation.
A shame we seem to be regressing since the 90s-00s (when I was a kid watching this show, admiring the empowered charmed ones). It seemed there were certain aspects of culture back then where we were more progressive than we are now.
The outfits were the best part. I wanted to be them so bad as a kid. Powerful witches with cool clothes
I'm a dude and I kinda wish male fashion was this fun lol
They have always been my favorite fashion icons for feminine empowerment. I still want to grow up to look like the Charmed sisters and I want to give all of the actresses major kudos for being so vocal and brave and thinking about all of the women watching.
im a woman and i loved the outfits even the nymphs, goddess, and mermaid, and the mummy one
You’re making an argument about representing different characteristics in female characters, and then being so condescending about modern films showing female characters in a storyline other than finding a man.
It is enormous progress for women to have a small number of films & tv shows made where the goal is not pairing them off - something men get all the time. Likewise it’s progress for women not to have to be young, skinny & sexy all the time. Your sneering of modern films for finally allowing this side of women to exist on screen, completely contradicts your points about women being allowed to be varied & make their own choices.
I love your channel, thanks for this.
Don't think I didn't notice the Sucker Punch bits you threw in here - I love it!
I absolutely love the fashion in the first four seasons 🙂
I do just love having a man tell me what feminism actually is - ladies, if you've ever talked on the male gaze? No, no, we have been told.
As a female fan I didn't mind the sexy outfits and wished I felt comfortable to wear some of the sexy outfits they wore. With that being said, some of the costumes like the "Cinderella" dress looked tacky. And some of the outfits just weren't my style anyway.
Girls looked amazing, love their outfits, make up and jewelery 🤗🤞☺️
I loved this! Great video ❤
Season 2-3 fashions were the best!
Love them
living for the space jam/jessica rabbit interludes
And those were two movies I only saw for the first time last year!
I'm glad you enjoyed it
Thank you for this I LOVED charmed and then fashion
Great content, fabulous video. Thank you so much for contributing to stopping that mad anti-feminine movement. I am a very feminine woman, always loved to wear dresses, worked as a ballerina, then a burlesque. Being feminine is not toxic, but strong and in control. Maybe it's because I was a 90s teenage goth and dancer, but the lack of female support and sisterhood is mostly gone these days.
TBH I always loved Phoebe's outfits and always tried to duplicate them when I could or wished I could
In the latest House of Halliwell podcast Holly Marie Combs even said she did wear her own jeans. It was the perfect fit for her. And I felt less uncomfortable in my skin cause I always wear jeans.
I loved your video, specially the analysis of Disney and Warner products during the 90s.
Absolutely. As a person with a deep love of these sorts of topics it gets INCREDIBLY frustrating when, as you said, people only have a surface level, pop psychology (or pop whatever) knowledge of the subject. It's always more complicated than just thing bad!
Sadly, a lot of people, especially right now, are desperate to be able to finger wave and say, yes, thing bad! And just leave it at that.
I really enjoyed this video. I was expecting a break-down on the different types of clothes they wore, which ones were the best and stuff like that, but this was better.
Last paragraph - but wouldn't that have been _problematic_ coming from a male narrator?
**faints in wokeism** 😉😅
I fully agree that there's a surface level "thing is popular so thing bad" narrative. But I still agree with critics who say it was terrible that the show execs were asking how would they get professional and extremely talented actresses naked to drive ratings. Those are toxic work conditions and should not be excused in any workplace ie not just Charmed.
Oh I can give a rough list of my favourites lol
Prue - Ms Hellfire outfit (both), blue strapless dress from Pardon My Past, silver top from Coyote Piper, black wedding dress from Bride & Gloom, silver club top from Sight Unseen, Halloween costume from All Halliwell's Eve, colourful halter top from end of Be Careful What You Witch For, black dress, leather jacket and blonde hair from Morality Bites, black seethrough top in All Hell Breaks Loose, seethrough sweater and long skirt in Wicca Envy
Piper - red top and black pants from Charmed & Dangerous, white tank top from Forget Me Not, blue turtleneck from Wrestling With Demons, black t-shirt and jeans from Y Tu Mummy Tambien, Valkyrie outfit, pink poncho from Crimes & Witch Demeanors, black dress for the party in Pardon My Past, white top with flowing sleeves in Saving Private Leo, purple top from the end of Witch Way Now
Phoebe - white blouse and corset combo in Brain Drain, red corset in Sight Unseen, purple top, bodywarmer and bandana in Once Upon A Time, blue strapless dress in Witch Trial, purple thingy in A Paige From the Past, US flag tube top at the end of A Knight to Remember, white camisole in Battle of the Hexes, pink sweater and jeans in Wrestling With Demons, black bejewelled tank top and jeans in Hell Hath No Fury, evil look with the mohawk in It's a Bad Bad World, pink top from Gone With the Witches, mermaid outfit, blue tube top from Mr and Mrs Witch, tube top and white pants in Styx Feet Under, red sweater with hair net in Baby's First Demon, the thingy in The Torn Identity, floral patterned blouse in The Jung and the Restless...mostly anything from Season 4 or 8
Paige - pink ruffled blouse and plaid skirt from A Knight to Remember, Evil Enchantress green dress, pink dress from Charmed Again Part 2, green top and long denim skirt from Brain Drain, orange top from The Day Magic Died, black dress from the end of Sense and Sense Ability, green tank top and straightened hair from The Sword in the City, grey tank top and really short skirt from Styx Feet Under, yellow t-shirt and red pants from Cat House, white sweater and denim skirt from A Paige From the Past, white 60s outfit from Witchstock, the combo from Kill Billie Vol 2 and Forever Charmed, peach top from Siren Song
@@TCt83067695 Oh, absolutely. But that doesn't mean that women (and enbies, and intersex people, and femme men) don't need to hear the message that you can own your body, your appearance. You can be sexy and still taken seriously. Both can exist at once.
@@gideongrace1977 1000%. You're right. Both did in fact exist at once on Charmed.
I'm just saying the exec part *shouldn't* exist and the empowering part, where the character and or the actresses get to choose, should continue to exist.
@@BetterWithBob Ohhh, man. EXCELLENT CHOICES. A lot are also my faves. Of course, now I have to give my lists.
Prue - also definitely the outfits from Ms. Hellfire, the outfit from All Hell Breaks Loose, the time period appropriate outfit from All Halliwell's Eve, and the blonde hair and the dress from Morality Bites, the outfit from Deja Vu All Over Again (I feel like it just really fits the moment), the black dress in Dead Man Dating, the sweater outfit from Wicca Envy, the pink floral top in Be Careful What You Witch For (but especially when she's wearing it as a teen). The thick sweater in Sight Unseen. But Prue's season finale outfits seem to be my favorite.
Piper - the floral dress in Apocalypse Not, the red tank top in Coyote Piper, the Valkyrie outfit in Valhalley of the Dolls, the fury look in Hell Hath No Fury, the outfit from Forget Me...Not, the black jaket outfit from Vaya Con Leos, the outfit with the scarf in The Legend of Sleepy Halliwell, the red top in Charmmageddon, the dress in Show Ghouls. But I don't like Piper's oufits quite as much because they tend to be so much more pared down.
Phoebe - the tank top outfit from She's a Man Baby, a Man!, the white crop top in The Painted World, the jacket outfit in Astral Monkey, the shiny crop top in The Devil's Music, the blue tank top outfit in Charmed Again, Part Two, the pink net top in The Fifth Halliwheel, the black and red top from Witch Wars, the blue top and the beige sweater in We're Off To See The Wizard. And the mohawk outfit from It's a Bad, Bad, Bad World. And I can't find the episode, but in season 5, that little white crocheted hat she wears with the short hair, I loved that. And her hair, just in general. She really pulled off all the different hairstyles she had, and there were a lot of them.
Paige - the white dress in A Witch's Tail, the crop top and choker in Witch Way Now?, the red and white top in The Fifth Halliwheel, the red top and the yellow hat in A Knight To Remember, also the evil enchantress green dress, the vampire outfit in Bite Me but also the crop top and jeans from that episode, the outfit from Size Matters where she's licking the lollipop, the black dress in Sense and Sense Ability, the teenager outfit in A Paige From The Past, the orange top from The Day The Magic Died, and the red dress from Death Becomes Them. I also find it fascinating the way Paige goes from bold, bright colors to mostly black and white and like lots of silky, satiny things in later seasons.
Also, also, I wanted to say that I've seen how soooooo many of the comments are people being like, "But! But! It is bad!" And worse, being like, "Oh, yes, I love your stuff, totally agree, but super don't actually at all." Like. You put that whole well worded statement at the beginning of the video and it seems a lot of people didn't hear that and it sucks and I'm sorry that's a thing. Like, I've wanted to yell about it and it's not even my video. So it must be even more frustrating for you.
Sorry, but you just don't get it.
When I wear something sexy because I want to - that's empowering. And I do it a lot, don't get me wrong. But when someone FORCES me to wear a skimpy outfit - that's oppression.
I dress exclusively for myself. If I wear sweats it's because I want and I wear lingerie because I want it.
You can be sexy without skimpy.
You can be feminine without sexy, even.
Sexy and feminine is not just "more skin".
Unfortunately, as interviews prove, the actresses felt forced to reveal skin.
So yes, this was problematic and it was mostly about the male gaze and fan service. The outfits in the show were not empowering. And I find it hilarious that you say as much in the first 30 seconds of your video but then go on a 20 minute tangent to disagree with your first statement.
So you are gonna talk about the male gaze, you’re just gonna defend it? It would’ve been fine if you wanted to avoid politics & talk about fashion like you implied, but this is still all about politics.
A lot of the fashion from 2003-2007 was questionable. Not even just on the show. I’m talking about in general. I absolutely hated the era then as much as I do now. 🤷🏾♂️
I imagine you're not looking forward to when those styles will come back via nostalgia ;)
@@BetterWithBob lol it’s already coming back. It’s sooo cringy! Haha
I like pipers clothes season 4 and beyond ...mature colors and conservative. Classy classy classy
I used to be more towards prue and phoebes styles, more prue as i like her dark and sultry look, the leather jackets etc but as im older i kinda like how paige dressed, it was fun and sexy and she always suited what she was wearing.
Great video. And I totally agree
I love the outfits in Charmed except when they get to transform to Valkyries, superheroes etc. There style drastically changed because I think during the 90s most of the outfits are very structured. Just like in SATC the S1 outfits are not that fashion forward. I think the producers focuses on the characters personal style as the series progress as the year progress. Coz they see now the importance of fashion and individuality.
I mostly enjoyed the fashion whether it was sexy or modest. But the constant costumes in later seasons bothered me because they kinda replaced good writing. It felt like they based the plot of the episodes on the skimpy outfits they could put the characters in. So the outfits weren't the problem but a symbol for the general decline of the show.
And then by Season 7, when they stopped, signalled a return to form. Battle of the Hexes seemed more like a throwback to those days
As a teen I loved the wardrobe on Charmed, but I now as an adult and a working actor understand how little say and ability to consent those actresses actually had, especially in the early days when they would have had very little job security.
To me I think the concept of “The Male Gaze” is a misnomer, I think it’s actually describing the producer/director/writers attempt to appeal to what they believe men want, and unfortunately it can be very reductive. And let’s be real here, production asking for more skin was 100% an attempt to cultivate a young male following. Its a good example of how gendered stereotyping harms everyone, not just women.
I always loved the clothes on charmed. Im gay but they always looked so amazing and also just seemed to have fun with it.
Loved it.
while they got away with changing their hair, alyssa did get a lot of shit for the pixie cut as far as i remember. and the fact that they even had to add in a stupid potion explanation for rose's red hair was so useless, like it's not unrealistic for a character to change their hair at the salon and then obviously not mention it again. shows that they felt like they "needed" to explain it
I believe they were worried that young viewers were fickle and wouldn't recognise the stars if the hair changed too drastically. Danielle Fishel begged for years to let them cut her hair on Boy Meets World and they only agreed if they could make an episode out of it
@@BetterWithBob Not changing your hair was a thing of the 'Aaron Spelling' era of television. He believed that audiences resonated with a character because of their 'look' and that extended to their hairstyle, e.g. Charlie's Angels. Especially during this era of television when networks relied on people tuning in to watch a show at the same time, same day every week - changing the main characters look too soon was perceived as a risk. In The House of Halliwell podcast, Holly revealed in the first season Aaaron Spelling was so strict about their hairstyles, that he wouldn't even let her put her hair up in a ponytail. She wanted to grow out her fringe (because it got in her eyes and it was a continuity issue, with different shots showing different fringe lengths) and it took two whole seasons of her GRADUALLY growing it out and slowly pushing it to the side before she could be fringe-less. She also said that when Alyssa shaved off her hair, Aaaron was livid - but by this point in the show, the show was so successfull that the actresses knew they had a bit more power - if they died or chopped of their hair, refused to hide their tattoos - and Aaaron really couldn't do much about it.
@@BetterWithBob probably true when you think about the young viewers, but i don't know if charmed was aware how young their viewers were at the time lmao
I hate so much the "who are you dressing up for?" like "b*tch, myself!" because one, it gives the implicit idea that a woman is "for" a man and two, it says that women are only allowed to be comfortable in baggy pants and long-sleeved sweaters, like no, I'm comfortable in a short skirt tyvm. And if you ARE comfortable in baggy pants, good, rock it, wear whatever YOU like. I hate pretty much any cry of "objectification!" bc no, some women wear those things bc they want to and crying that is what makes a problem in the first place. Some women wear short skirts or tight tops not to show skin, it just makes them feel good.
In one season 7 ep, Paige was wearing a dress that on my last watch, I took a screenshot and attempted a reverse image search to find one like it to buy (I knew it was a long shot so while sad I didn't find, I wasn't exactly surprised) so people who say "'real women' would never wear that" guess I'm just a figment of your imaginations. An awesome figment who wears what I like regardless of who is or isn't looking
Those people think they're Esmeralda when they're really Frollo
@@BetterWithBob a thing I was just thinking since I said this, so you want people to look and dress accordingly, is that so wrong if that's the entire aim? Sure, if you're not going for that and that's all someone sees, that says a lot for the person LOOKING but if that's the point, why is that so wrong? Not to mention the whole 'objectification' concept kind of goes into victim blame territory
As a woman who considers herself a feminist, this video felt yucky to watch. You can't show all these videos of women wearing "sexy clothes" and chalk it up to "well that's just the way things were in the early 00's". Plus it's an ignorant statement to make when Rose McGowan herself has been very vocal about her sexualization during her run in the show. Just because they stated in interviews (probably filmed DURING their run in their show and probably under strict contracts) that they picked their clothes doesn't make it a true statement. They're obviously not going to upset the studio they're currently employed by.
The "not like other girls" interviewed and featured in the video didn't help at all either. I wouldn't call either of those women feminists lol
Really great deep dive!
I never had a problem with their outfits. What was always odd to me was they could wear the skimpiest outfts pretty much leaving nothing to the imagination, but they had to blur out or cover up their real life tattoos.
They were costumed to be sexualized, not empower females. Majority of the time theor outfits were grossly out of place,mainly phoebe. Never holly. Sometimes rose and shannen.
They only had a say in what they wore because they fought for it.
I remember years ago guys would video tape women walking at the mall.
I had zero problem with any of the costumes on their own, but I had a HUGE problem with the show runners thinking that if they put Alyssa Milano in pasties, we would be duped into thinking the show was doing good storytelling. I resent and reject the implication that anyone who doesn't like gratuitous skin is just "jealous." I'm way more jealous of how good the characters looked in their modest clothes. But they replaced storytelling with costume design and expected the fans not to notice. But we did.
Tell Song to start a youtube channel. I might listen to 5 essays about Jessica Rabbit.
Look, if people actually want to hear it... *starts writing a script*
@@songweretson yay!
@@songweretson seriously, I did appreciate your take on the character. It gave a lot of perspective and fit well into this vid
@@LLCCB thank you! I was really honored when Bobby asked me to take part. Some of what I initially wrote got cut for time, so I can start with that
eilish is the true god of the charmed universe
I love clothes on Charmed, it's absolutely not my style but clothes were cute
I was a very young kid when I started watching charmed. tv would just be left on and that was what was aired in my house. I had to have been 3 or 4 when I started watching it (so it was 2003-2004) and I loved their outfits. I watched that show alongside sailor moon and I loved the more skimpier outfits. I never compared my body to the girls, I saw them as dolls. They weren't real to me. I didn't care if i had any fat, It meant nothing to me. I figured I'd get to a body like that eventually if i really wanted to. There was something I always favored about each main girl. Prue's light eyes, Piper's parental role, Phoebe's perfectly white vampire-esk fangs, Paige's pale Snow White skin and bloody red lips, and Billie's layered blonde hair, blue eyes, and tiny waist. They were my ideal of perfect, they were dolls, they weren't real and I loved every bit of it. Obviously there was always more for me to latch onto with the girls but that was always something for me to focus on. I loved how thin they were, and I don't think it was bad for them to have "unrealistically" thin bodies. They weren't real, not meant to be compared. I never even thought about comparing them to myself.
I'm so tired of people complaining about it. If you're sensitive to it or triggered by it then don't watch it and find something else, and if you still want to watch it then suck it up and watch.
1:42 - I have to agree on that. Also - "Pop-feminist buzz-words" sounds quite passive-aggressive and condescending towards anyone who doesn't agree with the stated opinion. Especially when it comes to objectification. Objectification, ha? You still believe in that modern feminist propaganda, young lady - grow up. 2:08 - there isn't a single feminist that ever said that. I'm serious the "sexiness" has never been a problem for feminism, sexism was and still is.
Red carpet isn't really a good example of what a "real woman" would wear cause most women simply wouldn't be able to afford those gowns or to wear them on Daily bases. Is this whole video simply going to be - modern feminists are stupid, male gaze doesn't exist? Cause I am a so called modern feminist who also loves fashion and gravitates towards more revealing (even tough more androgynous) type of clothes and I might have to call bull_. 3:27 - no, literally no-one has never said that.
60-70s TV series especially Doctor Who were a pure example of - "A real woman wouldn't wear that" when after another episode where the main heroine was forced by directors to go hiking in heels and a short skirt and clearly struggled female viewers were so tired they were writing letters asking producers to stop dressing their leads in clothes least suitable for the occasion. Actresses on the show were pretty vocal about it as well.
That's the male gaze. It's not about erasing queer men experience. It's about straight men only willing to watch movies if all the female leads are bangable, and them being infuriated by "unrealistically ugly" heroines in new videogames and directors of said movies enforcing those stereotypes. There's nothing wrong about a female character willing to look beautiful and to dress-up. And yet it is a problem when it becomes the screenwriters (and hers as the result) main and only priority in every scenario.
I don't think Charmed as a TV series promoted any of those ideas, but I don't agree with your take either.
The idea of Spice girls was stolen from a non-commercial anti-capitalist punk-rock girl band and watered down to be more palatable to a broader audience. From the beginning it was not about women empowerment, but about making money and selling merch. And those were the early 2000s. There was exactly one way to be a woman according to mass-media - skinny, flat stomach, conventionally attractive and preferably white.
… I found your channel a month or two ago through Charmed algorithm nonsense, and now I learn you know Song and Liana,who I have been following for years!?
Don't you love when that happens?
This is an interesting vid. There was a lot here. Cool
*I'm actually shocked the network let Alyssa cut her hair that short. I mean dying your hair blonde is one thing but chopping it all off is an entirely different thing. I think the Network went ballistic over Rose's red hair and shorter hair but to her defence, she had never really worked in tv before and that you needed approval*
Possibly because she was a producer by then and they'd also achieved the five seasons they needed for syndication so things were a bit more lax
Yes rose was reprimanded for dying her hair
Rose simply broke the rules of her contract in messing drastically with her hair..she signed on on the basis of such pretty reasonable conditions...in addition to which, Paige looked way-hot with her original hair-colour anyway..but like a bottle-blonde dark-roots disaster with the blonde/red ..
She says in interviews that 'they kept making her re-sign"..I don't see how they can make her re-sign new seasons new contracts...they CAN enforce the existing contract...as can she. If she did not want to be on the show, or had had it after 1 season, why did she continue at all?
I guess maybe that it was a pretty good paying TV gig which might have led to other career stuff..I guess maybe because in spite of all the conflict we have heard about..she was benefitting..
I don't think it was written into her contract that she had to keep her hair a certain way. Just that there was a mandate from the network that the actors needed permission before they did so. It was sort of an accepted thing in the industry that you didn't drastically alter your appearance too suddenly back then. Nowadays no issue when you can do an Instagram post
She says in her book that she signed a five season contract, being told that they'd likely only be on the air for a couple more seasons, as they only wanted to get to syndication and back then you usually got that with five seasons. They kept getting renewed and she probably could have broken contract if she really didn't want to come back, but she needed the work after Harvey Weinstein blacklisted her
Denying the male gaze completely is quite a choice
I just find it a fundamentally flawed theory that Laura Mulvey herself admits was never meant to be one. At best, it was a response to a super specific type of mainstream filmmaking from the late 60s and 70s that was rooted in the collapse of the Hays Code and now being able to show nudity on camera, which was pretty much gone by the 80s. It's also rooted in outdated stereotypes from Second Wave Feminism that said every man was a potential enemy, meaning that for it to hold up, you have to generalise every single man in the world as thinking exactly the same regardless of other factors. It was rendered obsolete by the Third Wave in the 90s that instead stressed how everyone was an individual, and no one group's experience was a monolith. It's just not very useful as a theory, and seems to go 'thing bad because I say so' as opposed to starting a conversation. I find it more useful to ask 'what messages are being sent here?', 'what other factors are involved in this presentation?', 'why do I feel this way when I see this?', 'is this open to interpretation?' etc
I think it has less to do with jealousy in regards to turning public opinion against Jessica Rabbit, but more to do with times of economic/political paranoia and depression. In times of prosperity and peace, women tend to experiment more with their clothing and sexuality, such as in the Roaring 1920s and then again starting in the late 60s - 90s as the Cold War slowly started to wound down. Fashions and attitudes became more conservative starting in 1930s during the Great Depression, continuing through 1940s World War II and 1950s nuclear paranoia and Cold War. Our current financial crisis and environmental crisis coincides with another rise in pearl-clutching.
Love your view!! People claim everything as “problematic” Now and I’m glad you could defend the Charmed fashion
The word has lost all meaning now lol
I totally get the message of this video but I still have to admit the fact that male gaze issue still very much does exist. Like, there's a certain spectrum between what we see in media. It could be women wanting to own their sexuality, just like what you presented us with Charmed characters and actresses... And the other side of the spectrum is these atrocious oversexualized fanservice character designs that we see in mostly animated media (anime, certain videogames etc.).
Moral of the story is: the issue is much more compicated. We need to draw a line between complex characters who just happen to be conventionally sexy and characters who's existense is just for the sake of "OMG BOOBZ".
0:39 just take the L dude. The comments have called you in. I’m not watching this one. Since everyone harped enough on the male gaze stuff, I’ll just stick to what I saw. Delegitimizing the terms ‘objectification’ and ‘problematic’. It doesn’t really require much explanation, just please reflect on your privileged position to dismiss these words so flagrantly
2:48 k… ummm this is opinion and viewpoint not fact. (But you stated it as fact.)
Also… not really any type of feminist analysis. (Or terribly sloppy) Which no one really asked for. I think we all expected a much different video.
And the male gaze is not outdated or obscelete by intersectionality 🙄
Nor does the theory of the male gaze have anything to do with “all men are the same.”
The male gaze is absolutely still part of actual feminist theory.
I like this channel but.. just no on this whole take. As if the concept of male gaze or women being oversexualized is not valid because sexy woman is empowering.
I just don't understand why people mention "male gaze" as something that the creators of Charmed did to make the show popular. The target audience for this show was girls (at that time time I wasn't even a teen myself). The world just got crazy with this woke agenda 😢
It's based on stereotypes, but so is media marketing. So the male gaze in media exists in the same way that attempts to pander to women based on dumb stereotypes do. Especially since aggressively marketing shows with a primarily female audience to men by adding badly designed costumes and badly written stuff to the mix. If it actually fits the narrative organically, fine, but we're not dumb, getting it shoehorned in tells us that the creators think that making *us* happy isn't enough.
I always questioned the skimpier outfits, especially given the fact that these characters had to often physically fight Demons. It was apparent that the network was trying to lure in more viewers, meaning men. I didn't think it was necessary to put them in such tight-fitting clothes just for the sake of attracting male viewers.