CASH RULES EVERYTHING AROUND ME! CREAM GET DA MONEY DOLLA DOLLA BILLS YALLLL! I think people forget that amazing music that still stands the rest of time today across all genres actually succeed through their simplicity. Less is definitely more when it comes to music with vocals that need to shine through/bars that must be spat. Above all though I think the mentality of a lot of younger artists/producers is so much different from the beginning stages. We are exposed to so many more people who are “making it” and expect to immediately be touring next year with them after you get Serum downloaded. I’m sure you can testify that you had to put in years and years of actual work sitting down on the Daw, and years of video editing and figuring out how to be an entertaining personality before anything even started to click. I just hope people don’t get discouraged or quit making music because there’s always a chance 10 or 20 years down the line of working hard and doing the damn thing, that you might be better than anybody ever was before. Or, leave behind a legacy that in 100 years people will still be listening to and loving it, even if you don’t get to be there to see it.
Only partially true IMHO. The market is crowded and people afraid to stand out are dominating it, this confirms the corporate mindset, BUT if listeners are getting bored, it will not last long anymore. Either some artists will take risks and we Will see the shift, or the genre will decline in numbers, sooner or later
I have a few different hypotheses: 1. In the past, the main way to get discovered was to have a unique sound. You had to be different for labels to even think about meeting with you. Today, young artists can have a song go viral even if it sounds like lots of other music out there. You don’t need a ‘different’ sound to be discovered. 2. The current generation of producers/artists has grown up listening to the same music. Streaming services have made it possible for producers in LA and Toronto to listen to the same music and have the same musical influences. In the past, your exposure to music was heavily influenced by where you lived. Music is global now. Shared experiences/influences = shared sound. 3. Technology was changing faster in the past. A lot of “signature” sounds were based off of whatever physical synth or technology came out (think sample chopping, distortion, 808s, etc). Innovation in technology doesn’t evolve as much year over year like it did before.
1) labels were always afraid to invest on a new sound. They willing to give their money to whatever they know is gonna work. Labels now mostly get already internet famous artists. 2) Well, back in the day people from they same areas were making similar sounding music because they influenced each other as you said. you had grunge in the 90s coming from Chicago. You had East ad west coast hip-hop etc. Instead of areas now we have subcultures on the internet is kind of the same thing. 3) mm I don't know. we definitely had waves of new "internet" sounds coming. Look at the digicore stuff or the rage beats for example. plenty of new trends when it comes to sound. Its just not the major labels that use them
What pisses me off the most is that whenever people try to have their own unique sound, others would ask “ why don’t you make stuff that’s cool like xyz?” I’m coming from experience btw.
I feel like part of it is that people REFUSE to listen to underground or less popular artists. Producers ARE advancing and experimenting, but a fair amount of popular one's aren't.
Producers aren't the problem. The dynamics of the music industry has placed so much emphasis on the bottom line it encourages artists and producers to make safe music via musical formulas that have been proven to work like trap that has been consumed for almost 20 years. Producers and artists that are innovative and that create music that's rooted in authenticity exist but don't always get the backing because it's riskier. Especially hiphop that's conscious and socially aware. It starts with the audience demanding more than just the mediocrity that's force fed to them.
The music industry has always been about money. If you look to the overlords to save us and to just suddenly "stop caring about money" then youre gonna be waiting your whole life man. But youre right about us demanding more risky sounds. We need to stop giving your attention to boring shit so the cash dries up with it
Too many 'PRODUCERS" that are not!, (they just wake up one day and say I wanna be a music producer), thats the problem. They dont even know what a DO is, or an Atari. Anayway why we call them producers? music makers better
Since I am a producer now, I hear the same beat over and over again in today's Hip Hop. I think the antidote to this is like what you mentioned i.e smaller producers working with smaller artists and developing their own unique sounds together or just rap/sing on your own beats or both. The E-Collab system is just watering down the end product.
Two main problems with producers today: 1. 90% of producers couldn’t tell you where the F key is on a piano, let alone what a chord is or what a progression should resolve to. Basic music knowledge is sorely lacking. 2. Technology today allows for anyone who can click a mouse to grab a bunch of premade loops, which are being used by 1000 other producers, throw them in a DAW and call it a beat. No music knowledge or skill needed.
I think that with electronic producers. For rock producers/bands they need to make fresh recording each time because when pluck a guitar it never exactly the same. it also why hip hop is not respected genre because it all about doing bare minimum. it where vocalist does not sing and uses a drum machine with a loop. Reflects the culture geto of super cities like Chicago. even with edm you challenged to do more to stand out than rap.
@angelsantana3001 I wholeheartedly disagree that music knowledge needs to be strictly observed through the lens of music theory, even on a basic level. Good musicians can simply play good music without understanding how they’re doing it; electronic musicians understand the tools they use without rhetorical knowledge of the craft. It’s an advantage, not a hinderance, that someone can make good music without theoretical knowledge. Using premade loops, the equivalent of “asset flipping,” is the real problem since the artist does not customize their own instrument and/or melody.
@@PearFinch that because they usually have a good ear. Which means they can tell what musical intervals are being played. what cords Are being played. these people usually can be good singers. these are usually minority of musicians. how ever hip hop attracts those with a poor ear. the reason being you do not need to sing. When you listen to rap you can tell they are in it because they lack talent and music theory knowledge. I am musician with a poor ear. So I cope by learning music theory and ear training.
@@PearFinch I disagree in that anyone who says that doesn't even know what music theory means. If they are actually good, they would already be doing what music theory "provides" whether you realise it or not. Many use their ears without being even able to do that. Good ears are more than just little beats, I'd say if you cant properly compose decently and consistently by ear your ears arent good enough
This is a part of why I listen to a lot of triphop and experimental. it is interesting and textured, it holds nuance and isn't afraid to break convention because essentially it is just a more modern take on jazz in many ways.
As a producer I think that a major problem is also the type beat system. A lot of internet people say that to be discovered you should run a YT channel where you post consistently (so 1 beat a day) and to exploit the algorithm you should keep the same style of beat. So that's why small producers make the every day the same beat over and over again without tring to develop new styles.
I don't see it as a problem at all. 1. A LOT of people who wouldn't have had a chance in the 90s or prior have been able to achieve great success thanks to the internet and type beats. 2. Trying to be innovative is always risky, because it's like traveling unknown territory. That's why there are elite artists and producers and average (which isn't necessarily bad, 50 was elite, Joe Budden was average, but that doesn't make him wack). If a producer wants to focus on a particular style/sound, find someone else who's doing something different than what everyone else is doing. It's funny, because nobody expected DJ Premier to change his very distinctive style (you pretty much know a Preemo beat when you hear one because of the way he chops samples and scratches), nobody criticized him for not being innovative (as in creating a sound indistinguishable from what is familiar), same with Neptunes, Timbaland and others. The all have distinctive sounds that people immediately recognized and they didn't really change that, that may have updated the equipment they use to make beats, but their styles are still pretty much the same, which is why they aren't topping the charts like they used to.
@@dugnice for point 1 I agree with you, obviously YT and Internet gave a huge opportunity to a lot of people. For point 2, nobody would ever tell Preemo to change his style which is the result of years and years of experiments which ended in success or fail. You said, his (and Pharrell, timbaland etc) style is UNIQUE. He took what he like from artists before him and gave his twist. All these type beat channel are all a copy and paste of a style from a bigger producer (southside, tm88, or else) and doing that style over and over again. If they took 2-3 styles and mix them that would be a unique style.
@@23MrCrash you’re right but on the other side you can get your own style out there as a “type beat producer”. You just have to try and experiment some people will like it. The type beat system gave many people great opportunities and if you find your own style with it you can be a top creator for a specific type. I am not talking about southside type beats etc.
@@yovngblake yeah sure! I was just saying that algorithm push more some kind of type beat, while experimenting could be difficult to categorize some beats under a certain type beat.
I've gotta say just even browsing youtube and beatstars, a lot of beats sound the same. But when you find a unique, well produced beat now a days, it feels like finding gold! Underground producers are the best! They're willing to take more risks and remain unique!
as someone in the underground im tired of people blaming the prods. The artists are the ones choosing to stay mainstream most likely due to labels. We trying to push new stuff, but a lot of the times artists just wanna go on what they are familiar with.
It’s not audiences fault for being exposed to the music with the biggest marketing budgets. People listen to mediocre mainstream music because it’s inescapable and everybody is exposed to it. It’s an industry problems.
It's actually the nature of the music that despite its minimalistic repetitive nature, it's catchiness and addiction of it that makes audience keep drawn into it. It's an inescapable pleasure, just like when you get yourself drugged, it's hard for you to get out of it
I'm not a fan of this idea that an audience is in the wrong for liking a genre of music. I assume the subject of this video is trap music, I am a hip hop producer and I personally love a lot of trap that has a lot of production credits. Just because you don't like a genre doesn't mean it's invalid.
I’ve been really fond of these collaborative albums that an artist and producer unify to create, without outside producers. Examples jpegmafia/Danny brown, Kaytramine, Gibbs/madlib. I feel these collaborations not only bring back previous attempts of innovation, but also encourage nuance to hip hop
You should check Danger Mouse/Black Thought "Cheat Codes", an album that sounds like both artists complementing and competing with each other at the same time.
There are some producers out there that still make me feel that spark I used to feel way back in the 90s/early '00s. Conductor Williams, Daringer, Alchemist, etc. are still bringing the originality imo.
This is why you need to support your local artists, cause those people produce, records and mixes all of their tracks by themselves. And keep their tracks 100% original.
there's the aspect of sifting through the garbage to find some gems, not every local/underground rapper is doing sum different. some if not most of em are doing the same thing their fav artist is doing for quick cash and clout. some don't even care abt their music fr
@@juzelajuze6868 thank you!!! I keep telling people but everyone keeps saying your not searching hard enough it's just rap in general got worse after 05 after least in the 90s 🚇artist were doing they think not for many and fame they just wanted to be a local artist and get they own music playing that's why I get mad when people keep saying your not searching hard enough well 🤷 😒 😴 😑 😤 well i listen to other genre anyways so it dosent matter basically it opened the door for me to listen to other stuff plus I'm getting older to only to just listen to rap only
I first started rapping, then learned production, now do the artwork. Its a dope feeling when you can flesh out a concept urself start to finish, and that individual process/style cant be duplicated. 💯
Agreed, I do everything myself too - it started out of nescessity. Tired of waiting on other people, or not having the money to pay other people. Now it's my norm and liberating. I also don't pay much attention to what other people are doing, just making stuff becase I like it. It's been a 20 year journey but thats been the best part, I'm just enjoying the ride.
You aren’t lying, just learned to make beats and to shoot my own videos, got good at lyrics and engineering first, trying to get better at social media too, it’s a great feeling when you actually see the improvement so much💯, good luck bro keep going
Agreed…but also taxing. I hope you never stop bro. If people offer help I would say take it but it’s totally badass if you are someone who can be all of these pieces. I’m only saying this cause I need to take my own advice.
I believe the same can be said for R&B. The production has been watered down to sound and fit like Drake’s style of singing. There are very few artists who are truly singing with passion and not just carrying a note with a song while cussing every two lines lol.
Big facts. Although the really good R&B is easier to find than the really good Hip Hop. Or maybe I'm just more picky when it comes to Hip Hop but I know where to go for R&B that's different. Flo, Joyce Wrice, Snoh, Victoria Monet, Nao, Emmavie, etc.... n the women have been killing the men in r&B lol I got a small amount of men on my playlist
Hip-hop has fully become pop now so this was inevitable unfortunately. Even in the 00s it wasn't at the very top of the music "food chain", now that it is, artists I think just want what works for their 15 minutes of fame. A producer/artist relationship is key though, all the greats had 1 producer (or 1 producer group)
I really don't see what all the complaining is about. There's plenty of diversity and variety, it's just not on the radio, you gotta look for it. If people like the music of any previous timeframe better, they should just listen to that. Innovation happens in due time.
We’re ignoring the fact that artists are requesting the same beats. When the artist aren’t choosing the different beats we have no choice but to make what they’re requesting. I believe it’s also on the artists to choose the next sound. We only making what’s being requested. That’s business 101.
That's the easy way out ! So because somebody request a certain sound that stops you from being Creative 🤣😭 If it's Hot they going to want it Regardless !
@@ctnative203 are you acutally in the producer community? because we got a LOT of creative and crazy producers right now with the connections but nobody gets big records. How is that?
@@dvnito3890 having to get threw so many doors to get your Production to an artist is probably why ' When a producer gets signed to a label they book you with sessions with big artist or upcoming artist , when you don't have that backing you everything is on you how to get heard or noticed .
Some artists are to blame too. Why do I say that? Because recently I heard an interview from Producergrind (shout-out to them) and they were interviewing Turbo who produces for Young Thug, Lil Baby, Gunna, etc. His biggest record is Drip Too Hard (which went diamond). He said on his interview when he was working with Young Thug that everytime he saw him which was maybe everyday he wanted a new beat pack. So when you got artists like Thug who want a new batch of beats as much as possible, how can a producer that want placements take time and be creative? I agree totally with this video tho. You got super producers like Southside that makes 50 trap beats a night. So what is that telling new producers trying to make it? That I gotta make microwave beats to keep up. It's crazy
And it's ridiculous how beats now have like 15 producers under the credits. No way in hell am I having that many producers on my shit. 3 at most and that's pushing it.
@@bazooka6746 That's a big accusation to make, no disrespect. Do you have proof of this ? He is one of my favorite producers. If this is true, that is fucked up !!
This video speaks to what and why I haven't been listening to a lot of Hip Hop today. Even being a producer I don't listen to it so that I can keep my creativity fresh and not trying to be like EVERY OTHER producer now. I love the fact Navie of how you detailed every valid point to hip hop now even with the research! Great video family and I am glad some one has said this! Blessings!
Thank you! I find myself listening to a lot more house and electronic music for the same reason. I will admit, it could very well be because I have been listening to hip hop for 25+ years so maybe I'm just fatigued.
@@NavieD Honestly I think we are all really fatigued. But yes I listen to A LOT of jazz, boom bap, neo soul and A LOT of the classic back in the day music. Music when it was really creative has SO MUCH life today and is still relevant. So I listen to these instead. Love the video seriously!
@@teoigi3247 Man I love Jamiroquai and Daft Punk. Grew up on them in High School!!! That's the types of vibes I'm talking about and the music is timeless.
Great subject that needs to be talked about: -In the years 1980-2000 when beats were mainly sample based, producers had to be musical expert and pull from many genre outside of hiphop. Rock, jazz, classical, movie soundtrack... from drums to melodies to bass everything needed to be sampled and put together from scratch. Now 90% of producers are using VST's presets and sample pack. Also most young producers nowaday only listen to hiphop which doesn't help. -The social media algorithm values quantity over quality. Before, artists would work on their project for 2 years before dropping their album. But now you have to release stuff often or the algorithm will leave you behind. Which means no time to reinvent yourself. -Autotune really lowered the bar so much when it comes to riding a beat. All a producer needs is a fat bass, autotune and social media clout to make a song blow up. -Overpowered computers. Limitation brings creativity. When a sampler had only 10 sec memories and 4 track, producers needed to be scientist to really pull the best out of their groovebox/synthesizer. Now all you got to do is torrent the latest hot vst and that's it.
Don't agree completely, but I definitely resonate with what you're saying. There's something seriously wrong with the kinds of expectations put on beatmakers and rappers in the social media age. It's really no surprise the genre is going so downhill :/ I can't believe we've allowed algorithms to dictate art so much And the story of sampling is downright tragic. Copyright laws have tried to attack this musical subculture for so long, and even with hip hop becoming pop music in recent years, labels are STILL relentless in their push to make sampling as unnatractive of a business decision as possible. Cause of that, the initial diverse tastes of early hip hop prods has become less desirable and the "music fanatic" aspect of it is not something that people see as part of the identity... but, like, THAT'S hip hop though. It all started from rhyming to and recontextualizing disco vinyl
that's not entirely true. It's not like there were more musical experts than today, they just made a greater percentage of all the producers and only they succeeded. And no, better computers don't limit creativity. Back in the day beats were really a 4 bar loop based on someone elses work, now you can make things from scratch even if you can't afford to hire musicians. Except most people would rather still avoid doing their work and use shortcuts instead
Agreed. I think technology and internet have made things so easy that mass production of beats and lyrics has become the focal point vs innovative creation. The genius of a producer or rapper used to be celebrated by stories of how they perfected their craft - whether it be the producer who spent 3 full days finding the perfect snare for one single part of a song, or the rapper who took a full week on one verse. Seems like now mass production and speed are celebrated more - how fast someone can make a beat and how quickly the artist turns it in to a song, which leads to everything sounding the same.
And this is again to blame on streaming. The share system of Spotify and other big streaming plattforms only makes the one‘s rich who own the most part of the market. So you have to have a big catalogue in order to get revenues. So it even encourages this fast food production.
Well said ! An other big issue is the beats vlog that keep popping up on RUclips. I see industry producers making 5 beats in an hour or even less and basically every beat is the same. These beats have zero "personality", there are just oversaturated sounds that producers know that work in the industry. I think that harms a lot the community as newer producers think they should do the same to succeed, apart from the vlogs interviews of producers saying how to get placements and build your connections is very bad as well. All of them say the same things, but I haven't seen any them say how to be creative and follow your own path to success. This why I don't like the industry, everything is about money and zero risk is taken
Yeah, I agree that many producers focus a lot on being 'productive'. While there may be a time and place for that, there also needs to be space for exploration
1. The audiences lets rappers off the hook with artists not taking chances. They want the safest decisions not innovation. This is in all of entertainment. Give them what they expect not new. Or they want new but in efforts to be more “positive” they accept what ever you give. - Drake is a key example of this. He’s been making variations of the same album since scorpion. The fans reward him. The rest of rappers follow suite because he’s the top guy. If it works for him it should work for them. 2. Fans lowered the bar for entertainment. They hear the mediocrity, see the gimmick, ignore it and ride with it. Other people see it and repeat. There’s always people that solely got into rap for money but now that’s what they mostly are more than not. So passion for the Genre isn’t there anymore. It’s not about your contribution but what people can take from it which leads to people trying to find the easiest way to get what they can and the points towards gimmick filled music. 3. No objectivity...Everyone is scared to be considered a hater to criticize the music though we all see/hear what’s coming out. When I was growing up most people wouldn’t dare try to rap because the bar was set so high. Now the bar is under the floor. Same for producers.
Thank you for bringing that topic on the table. I’m making beats myself and I always blame myself for not liking the main stream of beats on beatstars. But these beats are being sold like crazy. It’s hard for me to hold my place in all this.
this video has kicked off a great conversation in the replies, loving what I'm reading here. It's great to see so many people are still passionate about this. I do struggle severely with burnout and haven't composed anything for over a decade, swamped with other commitments and numbing myself with drugs in the limited time I have to myself. I do want to get back into making music again one day and seeing the love for the craft in places like this video and this comment section inspires me to get back into it again.
I’m a singer/songwriter, and I started out as just a producer, back before beatstars was really popping off, I used to feel like rappers never picked the beats that would make the best songs. It’s like they wanted the song to be finished without vocals on it. I focused on solely my own work and now I honestly say “no” to working with most rappers. Unfortunately for a lot of people it really isn’t about the art, and I think what we are about to see is a large “culling of the herd” when it comes to musicians who didn’t get into it for the right reasons.
@@NavieD my thoughts exactly. I think it will also emphasize the power of a live performance, the way the streaming era is going artists will be paid less and less for streams. I’m focusing right now on how to adapt to give people new types of live performances. Every artist is pretty much going to need to ask what that looks like for them, and at the end of the day, honest, unique, emotional expression is going to be the thing that sets an artist apart.
The problem is how easier it has become for anyone to make beats. People no longer have gone through direct/ indirect music theory. Some producers can’t even play an instrument and that takes away the timbre in musicality.
I do agree, and I really see alot of people chosing to make hip-hop because you can get away with what you mentioned. I wish people would be about the actual music
that doesnt matter, theres niggas on tiktok on fl studio making neo soul and jazz, its just a lack of people innovating when it comes to trap production
@@N4orEditor FACTS i use fl my self trash or not but yes i agree iv seen a lot of people do this these days on fl studio i also seen someone make elevator music on LITTERALLY fl studio on youtube. But people choose to go to whats trending the MOST instead of the love for it. Thata just my 2 cents. Its not the daw its the producer behind it
@@N4orEditorstraight up. You can still be SO CREATIVE on just a laptop alone. Yet people don’t like to experiment or take risks and try and be creative with things or take their times with things.
It’s interesting seeing the stuff that happened to rock happen to you guys now, what’s eerie though is when it happened to us we knew hip hop was coming next, I still have yet to see a dominant sound emerge for the next wave of popular music (I guess 80’s maybe? But I feel like that’s already coming to it’s end as well)
you nailed it. I never did a collab, and people thinks its wrong, but thats what I "feel": I wanna make "my beat", then will see what happens. If someone likes the loops or the drums I can easily extract, but I keep developing both beat making and composing.
KennyBeats' series The Cave has made him my favorite producer. I love the energy of the artists he brings on and you can tell they're friends not just business partners
Totally great and timely topic to bring up. On top of the situation mentioned here, there are a few other major systemic probs… “Type beats” are reinforcing the tendency to play it safe as possible as well as condition a producer to spend more energy learning the techniques and tropes of another producer or trend and being rewarded for it more easily than trying to stand out. They end up learning for example, how to use their daw’s sampler to do NY drill bass glides, clipping, maybe some saturation and ducking it under the kick as you would hear in a pop smoke track, instead of learning how to produce bass in a more general sense and being capable of doing something creative with it, so they can just replicate or build on it a little at best. Another far more difficult issue is that the audience is getting very comfortable with this context where even some name brand producers “signature sound” is only a slight deviation from others and anything that drifts too far from what we used to call “signage sounds” is now being considered genres. The best way I can explain this, is take the recent developments in NJ Club/Drill tracks by Bandmanrill’s producer, MCvert (the tag “project project x x, yo mc make another hit”) should be MCvert’s sound, even though he may use some cliches from previous Jersey Club, he’s also revolutionized its application in hip hop and even if his beats have a very similar rhythm, at least it’s HIS sound (as far as my knowledge of that scene goes), but now we have other producers globally replicating that sound and we are calling MCvert’s sound, “Jersey club”. It would be like if in 1995 you had tons of producers emulating RZA down to the Kung Fu samples and calling it “Kung Fu Soul” and hearing it from countless producers, using endless prepackaged sample packs already starting with a loop that comes from the same records RZA was pulling from. RZA in fact probably wouldn’t have his iconic status or anything close to it because it would get lost in a sea of imitations. Worst part is the music fans are getting very used to this situation and afraid to stray far from the carbon copies of a few unique sounds being thrown at them.
Type Beats is interesting to me because I always took it as a challenge to try to make a beat like someone who makes different challenging shit. Others/(most people) seem to use it as an excuse to keep milking out these easy-bake oven beats n slapping a famous rappers name on it lol. I feel like signature sounds only really stay signature when it's not mainstream yet. Kaytranada for example has a sound that's unique to him but when he blows up (cause he will and he better lol) that sound will be mass produced...maybe. I think how easy it is also a factor. Griselda gettin some love but I don't see the industry thirsty to steal their style cause they don't wanna pay for samples or probably don't kno abt the royalty free ones that sound vintage lol
I would think it helps to not only put your projects out if you’re a producer but also to make sure that said projects feature your most creative (and perhaps most “off the wall”) bodies of work.
@@NavieD and doing their own projects provides a much more clear idea of the worlds they’d personally like to see the hip hop genre explore, which I’m personally a fan of myself.
This! Cause somebody might release a project of beats but it sound like everything else that's floating around in the mainstream that's here today forgotten tomorrow
@@carlincole3236 i understand. It’s like you know you’re on to something but the minute you try to show that off, everything resets to “what’s really winning? You should do something like that!” And it’s like…dude…the whole point WAS to be different, and so that you could actually tell my stuff from everyone else…
I think the problem with the perspective of it being towards the producers is mainly the fact there are soooo many producers now. The underground producer community is as big as its ever been with the rise of tiktok prods and cheap studio software/free reddit plugins. It’s nearly impossible to be unique because someone has likely already done the exact same thing before. But there is a difference, if you are consistently working on making unique and fun beat’s and practicing you have more of a chance to catch someone’s ear
The issue is rap is mainstream and the mainstream doesn't care about furthering the art form. I've seen songs get dragged because they're not using the same triplet flow and heavy base 808s as everybody else. I feel like this is also true with female pop vocalists. I didn't even realize how many of them were out at the moment because they literally all sound the exact same
I think part of the problem is also the music labels that are not letting music evolve. You see newer producers redefining the sounds with super trap for example and different kinds of beats but they aren’t being utilized. Recently I discovered a new artist getting pushed online and he’s literally just a Nav clone. Same can be said for many new artists that are popping up outta nowhere. Labels realize what is selling and they are capitalizing and milking it as much as possible until they are forced to look at more ways to push the music forward and evolve.
The eCollab style doesn't seem to kill innovation in rap as much as it just makes every song sound disjointed as hell without any fun or groove focused parts because too many people are tinkering with the production (Jack Harlow's "First Class" is a great example of this). It's merely a textbook example of having too many cooks in the kitchen (aka the law of diminishing returns).
This is probably the main reason why I mostly listen to underground music, There's some amazing innovative and especially creative music that never reaches the masses. I sometimes find artists that become some of my favourites even though they only have something crazy like 500 monthly listeners on Spotify.
Amen! Originally, not trying to go for mass appeal, and most importantly: cheap concerts with great seats! Every show that I've been to I've been front row and able to reach out and touch the artist. Tech/Strange gang, Token, Snow Tha Product, ScarLxrd
@@kylespevak6781 I'm from the east of the Netherlands, so afaik, a staggering 0 people in my 4500 resident town has the same music taste as me. Almost everybody here talks down on America, but I really want to at least visit it sometime in the future so I can enjoy my music taste with other people. I also want to make an earning off of producing, so I'd love to be able to work with American rappers in person then.
@@jasperborggreve1047 Where are you from? I'm willing to bet that your country's culture is a lot more friendly than the American culture you might glamorize it to be. Despite the fact that most Americans are into hip hop a lot of us are very.....opposite about going. It may be harder than you think to stumble into the situations you're talking about but best of luck to you! Not that I'm anyone with huge clout but technically speaking I am an American rapper if you would like to collaborate 😂
I’m glad that this is being said. As a person that didn’t grow up with 90s hip-hop I did grow up with early 2000s and mid 2010s music. I really wish that prods were way more creative with their approach to beat making. HECK I wouldn’t even call these new guys prods they’re just beat makers no more no less. There’s no passion anymore. This is coming from a fkg GenZ.
I would recommend looking into the history of producers and beat makers and the processes that differentiate them. It sounds like your understanding is beat makers have no passion and producers are a level above, when there is a rich history behind both. on the video as a whole, I think the issue is not producers. and this issue is not 'the biggest issue in hiphop'. The issue is commercialised beats that this new wave of producers are chasing. There is endless talent and innovation from smaller beat makers but their beats never reach these charting artists because of the hyper-commercialisation and need to appeal to algorithms. You have to dig for gold but it is there and to blame producers as a whole ignores the deeper reasons as to how we got here.
I'm a little late on the discussion. I wasn't aware of that. It explains a lot. I agree the system needs to be changed. Great video and breakdown. Props!
From the Message by Grandmaster Flash, to the Lyrical Flows of Bone thugs n Harmony. We had so much different Diversity and Styles. Today: Trap, Trap and more Bubble Wrap. Even in bloody Movie Trailers!
honestly this was really thought provoking. having this ecollab system means no one can understand, be on board with, and be on the same page with the ideas that are presented
I used to play shows and collaborate with a bunch of artists while I was studying in another city. They became my best friends and we made some very special music together that I'll always treasure. When I finished studies, I moved to my hometown to work. I tried my hand at the youtube game and sending out beats to artists, but it quickly became stale and I ended up hating it. Sending beats to rappers online, everyone playing the numbers game left a sour taste in my mouth. I thought I'd lost my passion for music or that I'd somehow lost my talent. What I realised years down the track is that the connection I had with those artists is what made music such a special thing to me. I tried time and time again to recreate the sounds, or the energy but it was never the same! Sometimes I look back and wonder how I even came up with an idea. The music I made then represented a specific moment in my life, a connection, and being in the same room with people a million times more talented than me made me up my game. I would urge the new generation to get out of the basement and into the lab with a bunch of random artists. You might make some of the best music you'll ever make.
Well said. It seems crazy when you here some of those producers say they make like 20 beats a day and send out tons and tons of dms. Becomes quantity over quality after awhile. Same formula that EVERYBODY is using. The artist/producer connection has been lost over the years.
This is why I love metro boomin, kenny beats, take a day trip, and pasqué (aminé prod), they usually collab with their fav artists only who know their sounds and mostly do the whole production process instead of pulling loops and put a trap drum on it
Metro has been doing these collab songs and albums with only a couple specific artist for years that all his beats and songs he works with people sound the same now
I think the problem is that producing is just way easier now… Producers back in the day had to be these wizards that knew everything about music theory, drums, mixing techniques etc. Because back then there were no websites with sample libraries you could subscribe to for 10 bucks a month that give you the most beautiful royalty free melody loops you can think of. We now have drum kits you can buy for 20 bucks that give you the sounds EVERYONE uses, even the best of the best. People back in the day litteraly needed to go to record stores and find sounds through old songs, hoping they find gold. sometimes it would take days, weeks or even YEARS to have s good sound kit. You dont even have to be that good at making music to be a succesfull music producer nowadays. It’s all about connections now. So the top producers might not be the greatest musicians ever but that’s because… they DONT have to be. So the people on top are basically just good business people rather than good musicians. And that’s the problem
Great video!! I agree with everything you said! I also think in part, Artist are to blame as well. I think artist are in such a hurry to blow up that they tend to want beats that sound popular and closer to what’s already working with other artist and less inclined to make what’s true to them as an artist regardless if it is successful or not. Producers play a role in this as well because they want placements and the fastest way to do that is to make music that artist want, which are beats that sound like other music that’s already popular.
I definitely do agree with some comments that say it’s the fan base. I say that because we as fans/viewers/listers push mediocre sounds to the forefront and that’s what the labels run with. I watched a video from the breakfast club and Stephanie Mills said which I ageee with that nowadays they only push mainstream songs on the radio while talented artists suffer while back then you had various variety’s on the radio pop/rock/hip hop/soul/gospel etc we need to as a collective bring that back!!!😊
you’re 100% right. i started noticing i changed my style of music to try to get placements. i eventually stopped making music all together. u can clearly see this e collab system when u see 4 producers make a loop from europe place a beat on lil baby album
This makes a whole lot of sense. I've been producing for 20 years now and I've always had my own style, it's not something everyone goes for. But one thing I've never even considered is not going directly to artists or a "director" with my work, and instead passing it through 4 or 5 other hands. Innovation dies when that many minds have a chance to alter or dismiss it.
I like your argument and the points you brought up. I would also add that there seem to be a lot more people down for tagging along knowing other artists have already seen success doing one thing versus trying something new which is risky and more of an uphill battle. Essentially we have a lot of peeps trying to take shortcuts, being lazy so just hopping on bandwagons and also people who are in it more for clout and material things.
100% agree! Had to watch this video, as soon as it popped up. I thought it was maybe just me, been so bored with music lately. Trying to figure out if I was getting old, or the music was getting less innovative and exciting. I want something new, but anytime something new comes out I am underwhelmed. Thank you for this video and your expertise.
Dang, these were exactly my thoughts these past few years! As a producer, I started out just making music that I ENJOYED making, and then after a few years of doing that I wanted to branch out and experience the idea of making beats for artists. After trying that for a year or so, I didn't like that the unique songs that I spent hours making didn't gain traction, but the "simple" beats did. So I stopped my subscription to beatstars, which is what I was using to sell my beats and went back to making music I enjoy. Since then, I've published over 170 songs, most of which I enjoyed creating and listening to. Every song is unique, and has some sort of meaning to it, giving it life. That's a bit of my take on this video's topic. I 100% agree with everything you've said, and you've gained a new subscriber! Good luck on your grind, Navie D!
@@JHNTR I actually did both! I got placements with my beats, and the ones that didn't sell were released onto all music streaming platforms under my name. Eventually I just got to a point where I wanted to experiment more with my music, and so I stopped doing placements and just stuck with releasing songs as an album.
Amazing video and insights. This is a major reason I changed my focus to EDM and it’s sub genres. EDM is WAY more producer focused while hip-hop is more rapper focused. Innovations are almost sought out in dance music compared to other genres and the sound palette is so much wider you can truly develop your own sound that no one else has.
You just spoke out what I‘m thinking since I began producing. In the times of Beatstars, beat production has been industrialized and there is tons of the same generic beats. This makes it not only to a massively available good, it’s also really unpersonal. You distribute something online and it gets used and there is no more work done by yourself on the project. Furthermore, your statement proves once more what I preach almost everyday: if you want to be a good artist you need a custom sound and a custom production which can only achieved by working with one or two producers intensively. Buying beats here and there won’t give you a unique and custommade sound. But this is the key to uniqueness. This is why I completely shut down my beatstars store and began establishing more intensive relationships to artists. I prefer working one on one in sessions over sending beats out anyway. I‘m really selective about who I work with instead of trying to get a placement at all cost. In the long run this will probably a better strategy.
good point, but i think part of the problem are also streaming services. in order to get played in the algorithm or get onto playlist you have to sound similar to other tracks. if you do stuff that is more experimental, it is very tough to get an audience these days
I think that more producers need to be open in communicating with artists when working with each other. I can say that a lot of the artists I worked with have told me that I’m the first producer they worked with that is involved with the song and help push the song. It also helps to release instrumental singles too that way producers can get an idea what an artist should do. Overall I’m glad that this conversation was presented 🐉🙌🏽
Producers and Artists are the main problem. I couldn't tell you how many artists I've met that makes the same kind of music about the same subject matter. Producers are the problem when they just roll with the punches and never challenge the artist to make different kinds of songs.
This was a very thorough and valid analysis brother. You nailed it and perfectly articulated the effects of the new system, in my opinion. No shade at all to those who work in this fashion. After all, business is business. But we certainly can not deny the impact that this business model has had on the degree of innovation, within Hip Hop, that we are used to.
Great video. A lot of what you said was very informative about how the current industry works. I also think that back then there were more isolated groups of people. Seems like now with only a certain sound getting exposure more producers are being influenced by the same sound and standard.
Excellent explainer, quantified by %❤ My guy you captured the essential issues brought about by smashing creative endeavors into a de-personalised corporate microsoft teams type framework. Business and management schools will kill us all. There was a reason many creative executives were not traditionally Ivy league MBAs. This "streamlining" which strips away all the contours of cultural products rendering them into inoffensive, easy to administer suppositories is the reason.
Great video I think this is an interesting concept. I remember Russ saying something along those lines a few years ago. A point that should also be made to elevate what you’ve said is that Artist should also be looking for something innovative as well. The ecollab can create limitations to this like you said but I think it’s a 50/50 split on artist/producer to be pushing for a reinvention of what hip hop music should sound like
I just commented same thing agree 💯 They hated him too bad for that He was 100% right but still if ur giving opnions u gotta be best at it yourself Russ production is decent but what he said was right
The last time I was super excited for hip hop was when I first heard Griselda. I come from the boom bap era. My goat producers are Dre DJ Premier and Timbo. Dilla too. It felt like you were getting a collab between a great rapper and a great producer. The music now feels lifeless and vapid.
If you start with The Last Poets and DJ Kool Herc, you can trace rap back to the 70s, but you don't really see it become a distinct genre until the mid 80s. That would still make it 40 years old. It's natural for genres to become a little stagnant. In some ways you could argue rock music has experienced a similar fate: started in the 50s, had a golden age in the 60s, many variations emerged from the 70s throughout the 90s, and was pretty much aesthetically repeating itself by the early 2000s, and has almost entirely faded from the mainstream since then, though there are of course many independent label artists making interesting music. I might be showing my age, but my favorite moment in rap was in the 90s-the NY gangster rap-jazz production era: Pete Rock, DJ Premier, Q Tip, Large Professor. But even in the 2000s, Timbaland and Pharrell were making some pretty unique beats. You just didn't hear it anywhere else. A lot of producers today are probably learning how to work by watching RUclips tutorials and making music that is technically proficient but common and expected. If rap is dead, well, I guess it's not very different from a lot of other things in our world. Who knows what will happen next.
This video was so good. I don't listen to hip hop, pretty much at all. It's not one single thing; it's more that I've grown out of it more than anything. There seems to be no story anymore, at least in the handful of songs I've heard in the last 10, 15 years. I grew up in the very early days of hip hop and heard groups like Leaders of the New School; Public Enemy (my all-time favorite rap group on the planet); Black Sheep; Run DMC; Beastie Boys; and then later, OutKast, and a few others, etc etc. Navie did a great job in explaining why he feels hip hop has become stuck. I think many, if not all, of his opinions are valid. Well done.
@Krill Thank you for your question. I'm referring to a beginning, middle and end to songs, a reason why the song "is". What it's about. Just from my experience.
@Krill Yes, give me a reason to listen. Again just from my experience, many songs are just clever sounding music with just some words...any words...over it for 2 1/2, 3 minutes and then it's like, What was that song even about? What did I just listen to? I've said this for many years now: music has become like snack food. It just tastes good, but it has no real nutritional value. It lasts a few moments and then it's on to the next thing, the next flavor, the next treat
@@beachlife8367 You summarized my thoughts perfectly. I've been thinking about that issue for a long time now and it's pretty sad how the industry has turned into 'fast food' consumption of music basically.
I've been listening to hiphop since 2016 which could be seen as the starting point for the current trend were and you are describing. I do no however recognize myself in hiphop being boring, I've been having a lot of fun with new releases. I think what could be said is that mainstream hiphop and with that i mean the very most popular artists are afwully boring, bland and repetetive. However, i feel like there is so much innovative stuff going on with lesser known artists. Hyperpop and rage beats while still being very fundamentally true to the trap basics, are recent developments I would consider innovations within the hiphop landscape. Hyperpop is not hiphop but it is a very new thing that takes a lot from recent hiphop. Rage music is very repetitive in a lot of ways but I would still call it an innovation in respect to trap beats as we knew it beforehand. We have a very cool indie scene going on with rappers such as, MIKE, Navy Blue, Wiki, Mavi, Akai solo. Giving a very new spin on the oldschool sound. Next to that Griselda is also bringing tons of cool stuff with Mach Hommy, Boldy James and Gunn, conway, Benny themselves. Lot of these artists been here for a minute but they are dropping a lot (a lot) of projects i personally fuck with and consider a breath of fresh air. Also within the trap scene, I feel like there is a lot of unique talent. Jeleel, 454, Surf Gang. These artists aren't changing the fundamentals in hiphop in the sense they changed the mainstream or something like that but I still consider them to do their own thing and are not respecting trends. What I consider one possible reason (in addition to a lot of other reasons ( its never one thing youknow, stuff is complicated)) is that hiphop has reached is in its most commercially potent state ( i think). In 2017 we had that announcement that Hiphop is officially more popular than rock in the US. It's just a rule of thumb when something is more popular and has more money, things are just gonna attract way more generic boring stuff to cash in on the trend. So while a part of hiphop is very stale and boring and soulles, I think its a shame to define hiphop by the wave that is for a large part a commercial trend. There are so many cool artists but they are overshadowed because they don't conform to this trend. The most popular hiphip is generic and boring by default because it's not just hiphop but pop, music that is made to be generic in order to appeal to so many people. I celebrate criticism and solutions to it such as this video, its important to the culture. But what is equaly important (maybe even more) is to celebrate the smaller artists that aren't part of this trend. They are way more crucial in keeping hiphop fresh. ALSO IF YOU WERE DISSAPOINTED BY THE JACK HARLOW ALBUM I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU EXPECT BUT ITS YOUR OWN FAULT FOR THINKING HE WAS GONNA DROP A SIGINIFICANT ALBUM LIKE COME ON. Like how frequent is it that a mainstream thing actually changed something??? Just my thoughts, love your vids Navie, kisses and goodbye.
@@SaitouXD alot of beats sound repetitive, alot of melodies sound repetitive , a lot of cadence's sound very repetitive , Producers are making the same sounding beats , Rappers are rapping with the same cadence's , Every beat has 808s in it and the same drill hi hat drum roll , Auto tune charmed the game , When it Worked for t- pain everybody started using it , And alot of people were successful hell even Snoop Dogg had a hot song singing called Sexual Seduction lol , Auto tune started the Copy cat Wave we now have Have today , Swizz Beats Will ever sound like Scott storch, Dre will never sound like the Neptunes , Pac and Biggie never sounded alike but look at Future and Designer , look at Drake and Jack Harlow, you would have to had been listening to Hip Hop for a longer time to really understand but I think you get my point .
the biggest problem i’ve noticed is producers who ONLY use loops. I am by no means against chopping samples, but i’ve seen way too many producers just drag loops into FL and throw in a drum loop and call it their beat
This is so true about getting innovative ideas to artists, loop makers and producers are just making lazy music because its easy to get placed and it doesnt challenge the artists. As a producer myself im trying to start this new sound called 'Neural Music' which is a mix of trap, soundtrack, percussion, industrial and ambience. At the moment non of my beats actually reflect this on my youtube as its a type beat channel however on my Instagram I showcase it more. Now me trying to push this sound without direct connetions to an artist is almost impossible as most producers just dont have the mindset or clarity on how to push a sound or don't want to make the artists uncomfortable. Which is why in my case as person trying to bring a new sound I have to create drirect connections or close connections. For Producers it's also the lack of people that listen to different music as a music producer you should listen to all types of music to draw new ideas but sadly most hip hop producers just listen to hip hop. Personally I bearly listen to rap, more on the side of soundtrack music, industrial music, and ambient music. Which is why I have my sound. So what im getting at is a solution for producers is to do your best to create a direct connection with artists and not going through other producers for your oppurtunities. Also for producers to explore more genres of music so they create their own sound. Because nowadays if i go through my loop email most loops or melodies sound exactly the same, same sounds, same effects and just lazy overall. More thought has to be put into it for us producers to create new ideas.
V inspiring Navie! Sometimes I feel like my output isn't enough but I'd rather make 5 beats a week that I acc care about than 30 that are mid, problem is it's too easy to get into the routine and actual innovation doesn't feel like progress, but it's the essence of what we're doing! Fs gonna cook up now 👌
Well spoken, but another problem that may cause this is that making music is becoming very accessible for everyone and how many people are really enyoing the process of it? The main focus for some producers is just the money, because of how the industry is built today. They are just simply following a formula on making beats and that's where the actual creativity dies. I hope something changes soon, but it's gonna be hard as Rick said, not everyone is gonna like the new innovation. But keep up the good work bro cus I really enjoy this channel, much love!🙌
100%! I love collaborating but I think this tier for tier status of producers trying to make a name or support themselves. But the negativity affect will result in what we have today. Everyone wanting a piece of the pie. Not even know how the pie is gonna end.
I believe producers need to put out their own projects, like you said. Nobody's listening to a acapella projects as producers it's all about the beat might need to start dropping More instrumental projects and let the rappers find what they like
Хобби
When cash rules everything... Commerce beats art and quantity beats quality. Sad but true
CASH RULES EVERYTHING AROUND ME! CREAM GET DA MONEY
DOLLA DOLLA BILLS YALLLL!
I think people forget that amazing music that still stands the rest of time today across all genres actually succeed through their simplicity. Less is definitely more when it comes to music with vocals that need to shine through/bars that must be spat. Above all though I think the mentality of a lot of younger artists/producers is so much different from the beginning stages. We are exposed to so many more people who are “making it” and expect to immediately be touring next year with them after you get Serum downloaded. I’m sure you can testify that you had to put in years and years of actual work sitting down on the Daw, and years of video editing and figuring out how to be an entertaining personality before anything even started to click. I just hope people don’t get discouraged or quit making music because there’s always a chance 10 or 20 years down the line of working hard and doing the damn thing, that you might be better than anybody ever was before. Or, leave behind a legacy that in 100 years people will still be listening to and loving it, even if you don’t get to be there to see it.
True
Facts! late stage capitalism!!!
That's the new acronym. CBAQBQ!
Only partially true IMHO. The market is crowded and people afraid to stand out are dominating it, this confirms the corporate mindset, BUT if listeners are getting bored, it will not last long anymore. Either some artists will take risks and we Will see the shift, or the genre will decline in numbers, sooner or later
I have a few different hypotheses:
1. In the past, the main way to get discovered was to have a unique sound. You had to be different for labels to even think about meeting with you. Today, young artists can have a song go viral even if it sounds like lots of other music out there. You don’t need a ‘different’ sound to be discovered.
2. The current generation of producers/artists has grown up listening to the same music. Streaming services have made it possible for producers in LA and Toronto to listen to the same music and have the same musical influences. In the past, your exposure to music was heavily influenced by where you lived. Music is global now. Shared experiences/influences = shared sound.
3. Technology was changing faster in the past. A lot of “signature” sounds were based off of whatever physical synth or technology came out (think sample chopping, distortion, 808s, etc). Innovation in technology doesn’t evolve as much year over year like it did before.
1) labels were always afraid to invest on a new sound. They willing to give their money to whatever they know is gonna work. Labels now mostly get already internet famous artists.
2) Well, back in the day people from they same areas were making similar sounding music because they influenced each other as you said. you had grunge in the 90s coming from Chicago. You had East ad west coast hip-hop etc. Instead of areas now we have subcultures on the internet is kind of the same thing.
3) mm I don't know. we definitely had waves of new "internet" sounds coming. Look at the digicore stuff or the rage beats for example. plenty of new trends when it comes to sound. Its just not the major labels that use them
What pisses me off the most is that whenever people try to have their own unique sound, others would ask “ why don’t you make stuff that’s cool like xyz?” I’m coming from experience btw.
@@loserfaceproductions same
@@loserfaceproductions so what pisses you off the most is other people’s opinions? weirdo shit lmao.
I agree with your third point. Don't underestimate the tech.
I feel like part of it is that people REFUSE to listen to underground or less popular artists. Producers ARE advancing and experimenting, but a fair amount of popular one's aren't.
Underground artists look very happy n look like they eating good enough to make a living off music
@@drakedutch24 yeah, but not nearly as much as the people doing the same bars over the same beats every month.
The underground has been making some innovations lately in producing with things like darkplugg and hoodtrap
i'm more the opposite, i rarely give mainstream a chance. but i'm ADHD and have a high novelty seeking.
Producers aren't the problem. The dynamics of the music industry has placed so much emphasis on the bottom line it encourages artists and producers to make safe music via musical formulas that have been proven to work like trap that has been consumed for almost 20 years. Producers and artists that are innovative and that create music that's rooted in authenticity exist but don't always get the backing because it's riskier. Especially hiphop that's conscious and socially aware. It starts with the audience demanding more than just the mediocrity that's force fed to them.
The music industry has always been about money. If you look to the overlords to save us and to just suddenly "stop caring about money" then youre gonna be waiting your whole life man. But youre right about us demanding more risky sounds. We need to stop giving your attention to boring shit so the cash dries up with it
that's the music industry! they already have a set agenda. Which means producers are part of the problem.
Music = food
Too many 'PRODUCERS" that are not!, (they just wake up one day and say I wanna be a music producer), thats the problem. They dont even know what a DO is, or an Atari. Anayway why we call them producers? music makers better
i would change the word music and call them beat makers@@TheGirlFromTheFishandChipShop
Since I am a producer now, I hear the same beat over and over again in today's Hip Hop. I think the antidote to this is like what you mentioned i.e smaller producers working with smaller artists and developing their own unique sounds together or just rap/sing on your own beats or both. The E-Collab system is just watering down the end product.
I agreeeeeee
Just listen to egyptian hip hop music and you'll feel the difference
@@harrrby_8971 No thank you.
That’s what I’m on! Learned to produce to rap to my own beats!
It’s already been happening, it’s called underground music.
Two main problems with producers today:
1. 90% of producers couldn’t tell you where the F key is on a piano, let alone what a chord is or what a progression should resolve to. Basic music knowledge is sorely lacking.
2. Technology today allows for anyone who can click a mouse to grab a bunch of premade loops, which are being used by 1000 other producers, throw them in a DAW and call it a beat. No music knowledge or skill needed.
I think that with electronic producers. For rock producers/bands they need to make fresh recording each time because when pluck a guitar it never exactly the same. it also why hip hop is not respected genre because it all about doing bare minimum. it where vocalist does not sing and uses a drum machine with a loop. Reflects the culture geto of super cities like Chicago. even with edm you challenged to do more to stand out than rap.
@angelsantana3001 I wholeheartedly disagree that music knowledge needs to be strictly observed through the lens of music theory, even on a basic level. Good musicians can simply play good music without understanding how they’re doing it; electronic musicians understand the tools they use without rhetorical knowledge of the craft. It’s an advantage, not a hinderance, that someone can make good music without theoretical knowledge.
Using premade loops, the equivalent of “asset flipping,” is the real problem since the artist does not customize their own instrument and/or melody.
@@PearFinch that because they usually have a good ear. Which means they can tell what musical intervals are being played. what cords Are being played. these people usually can be good singers. these are usually minority of musicians. how ever hip hop attracts those with a poor ear. the reason being you do not need to sing. When you listen to rap you can tell they are in it because they lack talent and music theory knowledge. I am musician with a poor ear. So I cope by learning music theory and ear training.
I agree. There are things to make stuff easier, but relying just on them you will have less control and don't truly know what ur doing.
@@PearFinch I disagree in that anyone who says that doesn't even know what music theory means. If they are actually good, they would already be doing what music theory "provides" whether you realise it or not. Many use their ears without being even able to do that. Good ears are more than just little beats, I'd say if you cant properly compose decently and consistently by ear your ears arent good enough
This is a part of why I listen to a lot of triphop and experimental. it is interesting and textured, it holds nuance and isn't afraid to break convention because essentially it is just a more modern take on jazz in many ways.
As a producer I think that a major problem is also the type beat system. A lot of internet people say that to be discovered you should run a YT channel where you post consistently (so 1 beat a day) and to exploit the algorithm you should keep the same style of beat. So that's why small producers make the every day the same beat over and over again without tring to develop new styles.
@@itspayokee its horrible too. Like it is draining to me creatively trying to make the same type of beat every day
I don't see it as a problem at all.
1. A LOT of people who wouldn't have had a chance in the 90s or prior have been able to achieve great success thanks to the internet and type beats.
2. Trying to be innovative is always risky, because it's like traveling unknown territory. That's why there are elite artists and producers and average (which isn't necessarily bad, 50 was elite, Joe Budden was average, but that doesn't make him wack). If a producer wants to focus on a particular style/sound, find someone else who's doing something different than what everyone else is doing.
It's funny, because nobody expected DJ Premier to change his very distinctive style (you pretty much know a Preemo beat when you hear one because of the way he chops samples and scratches), nobody criticized him for not being innovative (as in creating a sound indistinguishable from what is familiar), same with Neptunes, Timbaland and others. The all have distinctive sounds that people immediately recognized and they didn't really change that, that may have updated the equipment they use to make beats, but their styles are still pretty much the same, which is why they aren't topping the charts like they used to.
@@dugnice for point 1 I agree with you, obviously YT and Internet gave a huge opportunity to a lot of people.
For point 2, nobody would ever tell Preemo to change his style which is the result of years and years of experiments which ended in success or fail. You said, his (and Pharrell, timbaland etc) style is UNIQUE. He took what he like from artists before him and gave his twist. All these type beat channel are all a copy and paste of a style from a bigger producer (southside, tm88, or else) and doing that style over and over again. If they took 2-3 styles and mix them that would be a unique style.
@@23MrCrash you’re right but on the other side you can get your own style out there as a “type beat producer”. You just have to try and experiment some people will like it. The type beat system gave many people great opportunities and if you find your own style with it you can be a top creator for a specific type. I am not talking about southside type beats etc.
@@yovngblake yeah sure! I was just saying that algorithm push more some kind of type beat, while experimenting could be difficult to categorize some beats under a certain type beat.
I've gotta say just even browsing youtube and beatstars, a lot of beats sound the same. But when you find a unique, well produced beat now a days, it feels like finding gold! Underground producers are the best! They're willing to take more risks and remain unique!
You're right!
I agree
i can relate to that
as someone in the underground im tired of people blaming the prods. The artists are the ones choosing to stay mainstream most likely due to labels. We trying to push new stuff, but a lot of the times artists just wanna go on what they are familiar with.
Ay das me
Producers aren't the issue, the audience is. They're the ones that keep the industry pumping out mediocre beats by constantly eating them up.
Exactly! Also if bigger artists try something new it is even better for original songwriting.
WOMEN HAVE THE WORST MUSICAL TASTE ! THEY ARE DRIVING THIS PROBLEM !
ON INSTAGRAM & TIK TOK, THEY ARE SINGING & DANCING TO THE WORST MUSIC POSSIBLE !
It’s not audiences fault for being exposed to the music with the biggest marketing budgets. People listen to mediocre mainstream music because it’s inescapable and everybody is exposed to it. It’s an industry problems.
It's actually the nature of the music that despite its minimalistic repetitive nature, it's catchiness and addiction of it that makes audience keep drawn into it. It's an inescapable pleasure, just like when you get yourself drugged, it's hard for you to get out of it
I'm not a fan of this idea that an audience is in the wrong for liking a genre of music. I assume the subject of this video is trap music, I am a hip hop producer and I personally love a lot of trap that has a lot of production credits. Just because you don't like a genre doesn't mean it's invalid.
I’ve been really fond of these collaborative albums that an artist and producer unify to create, without outside producers. Examples jpegmafia/Danny brown, Kaytramine, Gibbs/madlib. I feel these collaborations not only bring back previous attempts of innovation, but also encourage nuance to hip hop
You should check Danger Mouse/Black Thought "Cheat Codes", an album that sounds like both artists complementing and competing with each other at the same time.
@@takecareyoself5379Thanks for mentioning this. Had no idea they made an album together.
Don’t forget about The Alchemist
@@takecareyoself5379 I have! That’s on the list for sure.
I love this.
Hell even clipping could go in here.
2 noise and experimental producers and 1 amazing rapper
There are some producers out there that still make me feel that spark I used to feel way back in the 90s/early '00s. Conductor Williams, Daringer, Alchemist, etc. are still bringing the originality imo.
This is why you need to support your local artists, cause those people produce, records and mixes all of their tracks by themselves. And keep their tracks 100% original.
or not well known artists like underground rappers for example
@@styl1ssttt absolutely 🙌
No, they don't always keep their tracks 100% original.
there's the aspect of sifting through the garbage to find some gems, not every local/underground rapper is doing sum different. some if not most of em are doing the same thing their fav artist is doing for quick cash and clout. some don't even care abt their music fr
@@juzelajuze6868 thank you!!! I keep telling people but everyone keeps saying your not searching hard enough it's just rap in general got worse after 05 after least in the 90s 🚇artist were doing they think not for many and fame they just wanted to be a local artist and get they own music playing that's why I get mad when people keep saying your not searching hard enough well 🤷 😒 😴 😑 😤 well i listen to other genre anyways so it dosent matter basically it opened the door for me to listen to other stuff plus I'm getting older to only to just listen to rap only
I first started rapping, then learned production, now do the artwork. Its a dope feeling when you can flesh out a concept urself start to finish, and that individual process/style cant be duplicated. 💯
Agreed, I do everything myself too - it started out of nescessity. Tired of waiting on other people, or not having the money to pay other people. Now it's my norm and liberating. I also don't pay much attention to what other people are doing, just making stuff becase I like it. It's been a 20 year journey but thats been the best part, I'm just enjoying the ride.
@@soundslikefyci Word up
You aren’t lying, just learned to make beats and to shoot my own videos, got good at lyrics and engineering first, trying to get better at social media too, it’s a great feeling when you actually see the improvement so much💯, good luck bro keep going
Agreed…but also taxing. I hope you never stop bro. If people offer help I would say take it but it’s totally badass if you are someone who can be all of these pieces. I’m only saying this cause I need to take my own advice.
@@soundslikefyci Good 💯
lots of amazing music out there. keep diggin
I believe the same can be said for R&B. The production has been watered down to sound and fit like Drake’s style of singing. There are very few artists who are truly singing with passion and not just carrying a note with a song while cussing every two lines lol.
Big facts. Although the really good R&B is easier to find than the really good Hip Hop. Or maybe I'm just more picky when it comes to Hip Hop but I know where to go for R&B that's different. Flo, Joyce Wrice, Snoh, Victoria Monet, Nao, Emmavie, etc.... n the women have been killing the men in r&B lol I got a small amount of men on my playlist
@@TalentedKamarty For the men, there’s Giveon, DVSN, Lucky Daye, Daniel Caesar.
@@TalentedKamartyDon't forget Brent Faiyaz
@@TalentedKamarty yeah so far ginuwine, ne yo, r kelly, brent faiyaz, the weeknd are my top fav male r&b artists
@@jaredvale Brent Faiyaz is alternative R&B. His style isnt that vintage or 90s or early 2000s R&B like most are used to.
Hip-hop has fully become pop now so this was inevitable unfortunately. Even in the 00s it wasn't at the very top of the music "food chain", now that it is, artists I think just want what works for their 15 minutes of fame. A producer/artist relationship is key though, all the greats had 1 producer (or 1 producer group)
Yeah, this could be a by-product of the genre existing for so long now. It's gotta crash at some point.
I really don't see what all the complaining is about. There's plenty of diversity and variety, it's just not on the radio, you gotta look for it. If people like the music of any previous timeframe better, they should just listen to that. Innovation happens in due time.
great video im glad you touched on this topic bro
really good analysis and it was very clear and concise.
We’re ignoring the fact that artists are requesting the same beats. When the artist aren’t choosing the different beats we have no choice but to make what they’re requesting. I believe it’s also on the artists to choose the next sound. We only making what’s being requested. That’s business 101.
That's the easy way out ! So because somebody request a certain sound that stops you from being Creative 🤣😭 If it's Hot they going to want it Regardless !
@@ctnative203 no hes right. all last year dudes was asking me to make gunna beats. now not so much....
@@edashmusix yea and it was your choice to say i dont make type beats ! im right your in control not the artist !
@@ctnative203 are you acutally in the producer community? because we got a LOT of creative and crazy producers right now with the connections but nobody gets big records. How is that?
@@dvnito3890 having to get threw so many doors to get your Production to an artist is probably why ' When a producer gets signed to a label they book you with sessions with big artist or upcoming artist , when you don't have that backing you everything is on you how to get heard or noticed .
Some artists are to blame too. Why do I say that? Because recently I heard an interview from Producergrind (shout-out to them) and they were interviewing Turbo who produces for Young Thug, Lil Baby, Gunna, etc. His biggest record is Drip Too Hard (which went diamond). He said on his interview when he was working with Young Thug that everytime he saw him which was maybe everyday he wanted a new beat pack. So when you got artists like Thug who want a new batch of beats as much as possible, how can a producer that want placements take time and be creative? I agree totally with this video tho. You got super producers like Southside that makes 50 trap beats a night. So what is that telling new producers trying to make it? That I gotta make microwave beats to keep up. It's crazy
And it's ridiculous how beats now have like 15 producers under the credits. No way in hell am I having that many producers on my shit. 3 at most and that's pushing it.
southside steals loops and melodies from young producers. he just adds drums, that's why he makes 50 beats a day
Yeah, I don't want to give the impression that I am saying producers are 100% to blame. I just wanted to shed some light on this idea, that's all
@@NavieD oh no I agree with you. I understand you completely
@@bazooka6746 That's a big accusation to make, no disrespect. Do you have proof of this ? He is one of my favorite producers. If this is true, that is fucked up !!
you explain things so well!!
So much good information for young producers (and old like me!). Thanks, bro! Very nicely done across the board...
This video speaks to what and why I haven't been listening to a lot of Hip Hop today. Even being a producer I don't listen to it so that I can keep my creativity fresh and not trying to be like EVERY OTHER producer now. I love the fact Navie of how you detailed every valid point to hip hop now even with the research! Great video family and I am glad some one has said this! Blessings!
Thank you! I find myself listening to a lot more house and electronic music for the same reason. I will admit, it could very well be because I have been listening to hip hop for 25+ years so maybe I'm just fatigued.
@@NavieD Honestly I think we are all really fatigued. But yes I listen to A LOT of jazz, boom bap, neo soul and A LOT of the classic back in the day music. Music when it was really creative has SO MUCH life today and is still relevant. So I listen to these instead. Love the video seriously!
House, jazz, and disco for me. Lately, I've been listening to a lot of Jamiroquai and Daft Punk. I love how they capture emotions I their beats.
@@teoigi3247 Man I love Jamiroquai and Daft Punk. Grew up on them in High School!!! That's the types of vibes I'm talking about and the music is timeless.
@@PULSEMusicGroup Same right here my guy. I’ve also been listening to a lot of 70’s music lately
Great subject that needs to be talked about:
-In the years 1980-2000 when beats were mainly sample based, producers had to be musical expert and pull from many genre outside of hiphop. Rock, jazz, classical, movie soundtrack... from drums to melodies to bass everything needed to be sampled and put together from scratch. Now 90% of producers are using VST's presets and sample pack. Also most young producers nowaday only listen to hiphop which doesn't help.
-The social media algorithm values quantity over quality. Before, artists would work on their project for 2 years before dropping their album. But now you have to release stuff often or the algorithm will leave you behind. Which means no time to reinvent yourself.
-Autotune really lowered the bar so much when it comes to riding a beat. All a producer needs is a fat bass, autotune and social media clout to make a song blow up.
-Overpowered computers. Limitation brings creativity. When a sampler had only 10 sec memories and 4 track, producers needed to be scientist to really pull the best out of their groovebox/synthesizer. Now all you got to do is torrent the latest hot vst and that's it.
So true
Don't agree completely, but I definitely resonate with what you're saying. There's something seriously wrong with the kinds of expectations put on beatmakers and rappers in the social media age. It's really no surprise the genre is going so downhill :/ I can't believe we've allowed algorithms to dictate art so much
And the story of sampling is downright tragic. Copyright laws have tried to attack this musical subculture for so long, and even with hip hop becoming pop music in recent years, labels are STILL relentless in their push to make sampling as unnatractive of a business decision as possible.
Cause of that, the initial diverse tastes of early hip hop prods has become less desirable and the "music fanatic" aspect of it is not something that people see as part of the identity... but, like, THAT'S hip hop though. It all started from rhyming to and recontextualizing disco vinyl
Great points.
I actually did not know Jam Master Jay played drums and bass before DJing...
Best explanation I believe, you encapsulated all the points, especially on producers only listening to hip hop that is a limitation in itself
that's not entirely true. It's not like there were more musical experts than today, they just made a greater percentage of all the producers and only they succeeded. And no, better computers don't limit creativity. Back in the day beats were really a 4 bar loop based on someone elses work, now you can make things from scratch even if you can't afford to hire musicians. Except most people would rather still avoid doing their work and use shortcuts instead
Wow thanks for this. I felt in my gut that brilliant people weren't getting through but didn't know how or why.
Thank you madlib for providing this insight
Agreed. I think technology and internet have made things so easy that mass production of beats and lyrics has become the focal point vs innovative creation. The genius of a producer or rapper used to be celebrated by stories of how they perfected their craft - whether it be the producer who spent 3 full days finding the perfect snare for one single part of a song, or the rapper who took a full week on one verse. Seems like now mass production and speed are celebrated more - how fast someone can make a beat and how quickly the artist turns it in to a song, which leads to everything sounding the same.
And this is again to blame on streaming. The share system of Spotify and other big streaming plattforms only makes the one‘s rich who own the most part of the market. So you have to have a big catalogue in order to get revenues. So it even encourages this fast food production.
@@ParkerJMusic00 He is a scammer, do not believe this liar
@@ModernArtProductions He is a scammer, do not believe this liar
Well said ! An other big issue is the beats vlog that keep popping up on RUclips. I see industry producers making 5 beats in an hour or even less and basically every beat is the same. These beats have zero "personality", there are just oversaturated sounds that producers know that work in the industry. I think that harms a lot the community as newer producers think they should do the same to succeed, apart from the vlogs interviews of producers saying how to get placements and build your connections is very bad as well. All of them say the same things, but I haven't seen any them say how to be creative and follow your own path to success. This why I don't like the industry, everything is about money and zero risk is taken
Yeah, I agree that many producers focus a lot on being 'productive'. While there may be a time and place for that, there also needs to be space for exploration
1. The audiences lets rappers off the hook with artists not taking chances. They want the safest decisions not innovation. This is in all of entertainment. Give them what they expect not new. Or they want new but in efforts to be more “positive” they accept what ever you give.
- Drake is a key example of this. He’s been making variations of the same album since scorpion. The fans reward him. The rest of rappers follow suite because he’s the top guy. If it works for him it should work for them.
2. Fans lowered the bar for entertainment. They hear the mediocrity, see the gimmick, ignore it and ride with it. Other people see it and repeat. There’s always people that solely got into rap for money but now that’s what they mostly are more than not. So passion for the Genre isn’t there anymore. It’s not about your contribution but what people can take from it which leads to people trying to find the easiest way to get what they can and the points towards gimmick filled music.
3. No objectivity...Everyone is scared to be considered a hater to criticize the music though we all see/hear what’s coming out. When I was growing up most people wouldn’t dare try to rap because the bar was set so high. Now the bar is under the floor. Same for producers.
This is well thought out great video. Thx for this.
Thank you for bringing that topic on the table. I’m making beats myself and I always blame myself for not liking the main stream of beats on beatstars. But these beats are being sold like crazy. It’s hard for me to hold my place in all this.
this video has kicked off a great conversation in the replies, loving what I'm reading here. It's great to see so many people are still passionate about this. I do struggle severely with burnout and haven't composed anything for over a decade, swamped with other commitments and numbing myself with drugs in the limited time I have to myself. I do want to get back into making music again one day and seeing the love for the craft in places like this video and this comment section inspires me to get back into it again.
Do it broski. Even as a hobby it's fun...
relatable
I’m a singer/songwriter, and I started out as just a producer, back before beatstars was really popping off, I used to feel like rappers never picked the beats that would make the best songs. It’s like they wanted the song to be finished without vocals on it. I focused on solely my own work and now I honestly say “no” to working with most rappers. Unfortunately for a lot of people it really isn’t about the art, and I think what we are about to see is a large “culling of the herd” when it comes to musicians who didn’t get into it for the right reasons.
Yeah I can see AI killing a lot of the people who make highly replicable art
@@NavieD my thoughts exactly. I think it will also emphasize the power of a live performance, the way the streaming era is going artists will be paid less and less for streams. I’m focusing right now on how to adapt to give people new types of live performances. Every artist is pretty much going to need to ask what that looks like for them, and at the end of the day, honest, unique, emotional expression is going to be the thing that sets an artist apart.
The problem is how easier it has become for anyone to make beats. People no longer have gone through direct/ indirect music theory. Some producers can’t even play an instrument and that takes away the timbre in musicality.
I do agree, and I really see alot of people chosing to make hip-hop because you can get away with what you mentioned. I wish people would be about the actual music
that doesnt matter, theres niggas on tiktok on fl studio making neo soul and jazz, its just a lack of people innovating when it comes to trap production
@@N4orEditor FACTS i use fl my self trash or not but yes i agree iv seen a lot of people do this these days on fl studio i also seen someone make elevator music on LITTERALLY fl studio on youtube. But people choose to go to whats trending the MOST instead of the love for it. Thata just my 2 cents. Its not the daw its the producer behind it
Which leads to no creativity and brainpower.
@@N4orEditorstraight up. You can still be SO CREATIVE on just a laptop alone. Yet people don’t like to experiment or take risks and try and be creative with things or take their times with things.
It’s interesting seeing the stuff that happened to rock happen to you guys now, what’s eerie though is when it happened to us we knew hip hop was coming next, I still have yet to see a dominant sound emerge for the next wave of popular music (I guess 80’s maybe? But I feel like that’s already coming to it’s end as well)
you nailed it. I never did a collab, and people thinks its wrong, but thats what I "feel": I wanna make "my beat", then will see what happens. If someone likes the loops or the drums I can easily extract, but I keep developing both beat making and composing.
hi monk
@@prodlilbooger aye bro ✌️
Seeing JPEG live was a game changer. He really runs his own show and it's super inspiring
Peggy the goat
Damn peggy😩😩😩😫😫😫
KennyBeats' series The Cave has made him my favorite producer. I love the energy of the artists he brings on and you can tell they're friends not just business partners
Hadn’t considered this but it makes A LOT OF SENSE. I agree with you.
Totally great and timely topic to bring up. On top of the situation mentioned here, there are a few other major systemic probs…
“Type beats” are reinforcing the tendency to play it safe as possible as well as condition a producer to spend more energy learning the techniques and tropes of another producer or trend and being rewarded for it more easily than trying to stand out.
They end up learning for example, how to use their daw’s sampler to do NY drill bass glides, clipping, maybe some saturation and ducking it under the kick as you would hear in a pop smoke track, instead of learning how to produce bass in a more general sense and being capable of doing something creative with it, so they can just replicate or build on it a little at best.
Another far more difficult issue is that the audience is getting very comfortable with this context where even some name brand producers “signature sound” is only a slight deviation from others and anything that drifts too far from what we used to call “signage sounds” is now being considered genres.
The best way I can explain this, is take the recent developments in NJ Club/Drill tracks by Bandmanrill’s producer, MCvert (the tag “project project x x, yo mc make another hit”) should be MCvert’s sound, even though he may use some cliches from previous Jersey Club, he’s also revolutionized its application in hip hop and even if his beats have a very similar rhythm, at least it’s HIS sound (as far as my knowledge of that scene goes), but now we have other producers globally replicating that sound and we are calling MCvert’s sound, “Jersey club”. It would be like if in 1995 you had tons of producers emulating RZA down to the Kung Fu samples and calling it “Kung Fu Soul” and hearing it from countless producers, using endless prepackaged sample packs already starting with a loop that comes from the same records RZA was pulling from. RZA in fact probably wouldn’t have his iconic status or anything close to it because it would get lost in a sea of imitations.
Worst part is the music fans are getting very used to this situation and afraid to stray far from the carbon copies of a few unique sounds being thrown at them.
dam the point u made about MCvertts sound is very interesting. never thought about it like that.
Type Beats is interesting to me because I always took it as a challenge to try to make a beat like someone who makes different challenging shit. Others/(most people) seem to use it as an excuse to keep milking out these easy-bake oven beats n slapping a famous rappers name on it lol.
I feel like signature sounds only really stay signature when it's not mainstream yet. Kaytranada for example has a sound that's unique to him but when he blows up (cause he will and he better lol) that sound will be mass produced...maybe. I think how easy it is also a factor. Griselda gettin some love but I don't see the industry thirsty to steal their style cause they don't wanna pay for samples or probably don't kno abt the royalty free ones that sound vintage lol
All great points here. Reminds me of the plethora of J Dilla copycats out there making music under the guise of “Lo-Fi Hip-Hop”.
Couldn’t have wait it better myself
I would think it helps to not only put your projects out if you’re a producer but also to make sure that said projects feature your most creative (and perhaps most “off the wall”) bodies of work.
That's why I love hearing producer albums. Often, it's their most creative work
@@NavieD and doing their own projects provides a much more clear idea of the worlds they’d personally like to see the hip hop genre explore, which I’m personally a fan of myself.
That's my mind frame by it's hard to get traction cause no one gets it
This! Cause somebody might release a project of beats but it sound like everything else that's floating around in the mainstream that's here today forgotten tomorrow
@@carlincole3236 i understand. It’s like you know you’re on to something but the minute you try to show that off, everything resets to “what’s really winning? You should do something like that!”
And it’s like…dude…the whole point WAS to be different, and so that you could actually tell my stuff from everyone else…
I think the problem with the perspective of it being towards the producers is mainly the fact there are soooo many producers now. The underground producer community is as big as its ever been with the rise of tiktok prods and cheap studio software/free reddit plugins. It’s nearly impossible to be unique because someone has likely already done the exact same thing before. But there is a difference, if you are consistently working on making unique and fun beat’s and practicing you have more of a chance to catch someone’s ear
The issue is rap is mainstream and the mainstream doesn't care about furthering the art form. I've seen songs get dragged because they're not using the same triplet flow and heavy base 808s as everybody else. I feel like this is also true with female pop vocalists. I didn't even realize how many of them were out at the moment because they literally all sound the exact same
I think part of the problem is also the music labels that are not letting music evolve. You see newer producers redefining the sounds with super trap for example and different kinds of beats but they aren’t being utilized. Recently I discovered a new artist getting pushed online and he’s literally just a Nav clone. Same can be said for many new artists that are popping up outta nowhere. Labels realize what is selling and they are capitalizing and milking it as much as possible until they are forced to look at more ways to push the music forward and evolve.
The industry is looking for stuff that fits their formula. It's not about novelty.
Why would anyone want another Nav. I wish the one there already is would go away. He's so bottom of the barrel.
Man this video is just encouraging me to be more innovative with my music
Forreal 💯🔥🔥
The eCollab style doesn't seem to kill innovation in rap as much as it just makes every song sound disjointed as hell without any fun or groove focused parts because too many people are tinkering with the production (Jack Harlow's "First Class" is a great example of this). It's merely a textbook example of having too many cooks in the kitchen (aka the law of diminishing returns).
I’ve been saying this for yeeaarrrss! It’s true! Thank you for making this video!
This is probably the main reason why I mostly listen to underground music, There's some amazing innovative and especially creative music that never reaches the masses. I sometimes find artists that become some of my favourites even though they only have something crazy like 500 monthly listeners on Spotify.
Amen! Originally, not trying to go for mass appeal, and most importantly: cheap concerts with great seats! Every show that I've been to I've been front row and able to reach out and touch the artist. Tech/Strange gang, Token, Snow Tha Product, ScarLxrd
@@kylespevak6781 I'm from the east of the Netherlands, so afaik, a staggering 0 people in my 4500 resident town has the same music taste as me. Almost everybody here talks down on America, but I really want to at least visit it sometime in the future so I can enjoy my music taste with other people. I also want to make an earning off of producing, so I'd love to be able to work with American rappers in person then.
@@jasperborggreve1047 Where are you from? I'm willing to bet that your country's culture is a lot more friendly than the American culture you might glamorize it to be. Despite the fact that most Americans are into hip hop a lot of us are very.....opposite about going. It may be harder than you think to stumble into the situations you're talking about but best of luck to you!
Not that I'm anyone with huge clout but technically speaking I am an American rapper if you would like to collaborate 😂
I’m glad that this is being said. As a person that didn’t grow up with 90s hip-hop I did grow up with early 2000s and mid 2010s music. I really wish that prods were way more creative with their approach to beat making. HECK I wouldn’t even call these new guys prods they’re just beat makers no more no less. There’s no passion anymore. This is coming from a fkg GenZ.
Soy
I would recommend looking into the history of producers and beat makers and the processes that differentiate them. It sounds like your understanding is beat makers have no passion and producers are a level above, when there is a rich history behind both.
on the video as a whole, I think the issue is not producers. and this issue is not 'the biggest issue in hiphop'. The issue is commercialised beats that this new wave of producers are chasing. There is endless talent and innovation from smaller beat makers but their beats never reach these charting artists because of the hyper-commercialisation and need to appeal to algorithms. You have to dig for gold but it is there and to blame producers as a whole ignores the deeper reasons as to how we got here.
@@Atriums he's a GenZ, did you really think he'd know about something?
strongly disagree
I love you Navie, thanks
I'm a little late on the discussion. I wasn't aware of that. It explains a lot. I agree the system needs to be changed. Great video and breakdown. Props!
From the Message by Grandmaster Flash, to the Lyrical Flows of Bone thugs n Harmony.
We had so much different Diversity and Styles.
Today: Trap, Trap and more Bubble Wrap. Even in bloody Movie Trailers!
That's why underground music is so good, its unique and the beats are unique.
exactly
honestly this was really thought provoking. having this ecollab system means no one can understand, be on board with, and be on the same page with the ideas that are presented
great video!
I used to play shows and collaborate with a bunch of artists while I was studying in another city. They became my best friends and we made some very special music together that I'll always treasure. When I finished studies, I moved to my hometown to work. I tried my hand at the youtube game and sending out beats to artists, but it quickly became stale and I ended up hating it. Sending beats to rappers online, everyone playing the numbers game left a sour taste in my mouth. I thought I'd lost my passion for music or that I'd somehow lost my talent.
What I realised years down the track is that the connection I had with those artists is what made music such a special thing to me. I tried time and time again to recreate the sounds, or the energy but it was never the same! Sometimes I look back and wonder how I even came up with an idea. The music I made then represented a specific moment in my life, a connection, and being in the same room with people a million times more talented than me made me up my game.
I would urge the new generation to get out of the basement and into the lab with a bunch of random artists. You might make some of the best music you'll ever make.
Well said. It seems crazy when you here some of those producers say they make like 20 beats a day and send out tons and tons of dms. Becomes quantity over quality after awhile. Same formula that EVERYBODY is using. The artist/producer connection has been lost over the years.
Honestly this is why I just dont collab with producers...I want no one to mess with my beats period.
Well said sir!! Excellent insight and explanation. Yeah hip hop already has one foot in the grave. We truly need a rap renaissance!!
This is why I love metro boomin, kenny beats, take a day trip, and pasqué (aminé prod), they usually collab with their fav artists only who know their sounds and mostly do the whole production process instead of pulling loops and put a trap drum on it
Metro has been doing these collab songs and albums with only a couple specific artist for years that all his beats and songs he works with people sound the same now
I always wondered why I liked metro boomin so much
I think the problem is that producing is just way easier now… Producers back in the day had to be these wizards that knew everything about music theory, drums, mixing techniques etc. Because back then there were no websites with sample libraries you could subscribe to for 10 bucks a month that give you the most beautiful royalty free melody loops you can think of. We now have drum kits you can buy for 20 bucks that give you the sounds EVERYONE uses, even the best of the best. People back in the day litteraly needed to go to record stores and find sounds through old songs, hoping they find gold. sometimes it would take days, weeks or even YEARS to have s good sound kit. You dont even have to be that good at making music to be a succesfull music producer nowadays. It’s all about connections now. So the top producers might not be the greatest musicians ever but that’s because… they DONT have to be. So the people on top are basically just good business people rather than good musicians. And that’s the problem
i agree that the most popular producers aren’t the most talented, but producing is just becoming more accessible to people, not a bad thing.
Drill and the Griselda Movement are sth fresh!!
Great video!! I agree with everything you said! I also think in part, Artist are to blame as well. I think artist are in such a hurry to blow up that they tend to want beats that sound popular and closer to what’s already working with other artist and less inclined to make what’s true to them as an artist regardless if it is successful or not. Producers play a role in this as well because they want placements and the fastest way to do that is to make music that artist want, which are beats that sound like other music that’s already popular.
I definitely do agree with some comments that say it’s the fan base. I say that because we as fans/viewers/listers push mediocre sounds to the forefront and that’s what the labels run with. I watched a video from the breakfast club and Stephanie Mills said which I ageee with that nowadays they only push mainstream songs on the radio while talented artists suffer while back then you had various variety’s on the radio pop/rock/hip hop/soul/gospel etc we need to as a collective bring that back!!!😊
you’re 100% right. i started noticing i changed my style of music to try to get placements. i eventually stopped making music all together. u can clearly see this e collab system when u see 4 producers make a loop from europe place a beat on lil baby album
This makes a whole lot of sense. I've been producing for 20 years now and I've always had my own style, it's not something everyone goes for. But one thing I've never even considered is not going directly to artists or a "director" with my work, and instead passing it through 4 or 5 other hands. Innovation dies when that many minds have a chance to alter or dismiss it.
IF YOURE BORED STREAM M!DNIGHT I PRODUCE ALL MY BEATS
Never knew about the e collab system, thanks for putting me on game
I like your argument and the points you brought up.
I would also add that there seem to be a lot more people down for tagging along knowing other artists have already seen success doing one thing versus trying something new which is risky and more of an uphill battle. Essentially we have a lot of peeps trying to take shortcuts, being lazy so just hopping on bandwagons and also people who are in it more for clout and material things.
IF YOURE BORED STREAM M!DNIGHT I PRODUCE ALL MY BEATS
100% agree! Had to watch this video, as soon as it popped up. I thought it was maybe just me, been so bored with music lately. Trying to figure out if I was getting old, or the music was getting less innovative and exciting. I want something new, but anytime something new comes out I am underwhelmed. Thank you for this video and your expertise.
I feel the same way. Nowadays, there are only a handful of artists who I am excited to hear new projects from
@@NavieD who are some of these artists? I need some new jams.
This is a rly good video I had no idea abt any of this!!!
Fantastic video. Agree 100%
Dang, these were exactly my thoughts these past few years! As a producer, I started out just making music that I ENJOYED making, and then after a few years of doing that I wanted to branch out and experience the idea of making beats for artists. After trying that for a year or so, I didn't like that the unique songs that I spent hours making didn't gain traction, but the "simple" beats did. So I stopped my subscription to beatstars, which is what I was using to sell my beats and went back to making music I enjoy. Since then, I've published over 170 songs, most of which I enjoyed creating and listening to. Every song is unique, and has some sort of meaning to it, giving it life.
That's a bit of my take on this video's topic. I 100% agree with everything you've said, and you've gained a new subscriber! Good luck on your grind, Navie D!
i love this! when you said you published your songs do you mean you got placements with artists or you releases your own music like a beat tape
@@JHNTR I actually did both! I got placements with my beats, and the ones that didn't sell were released onto all music streaming platforms under my name. Eventually I just got to a point where I wanted to experiment more with my music, and so I stopped doing placements and just stuck with releasing songs as an album.
IF YOURE BORED STREAM M!DNIGHT I PRODUCE ALL MY BEATS
Amazing video and insights. This is a major reason I changed my focus to EDM and it’s sub genres. EDM is WAY more producer focused while hip-hop is more rapper focused. Innovations are almost sought out in dance music compared to other genres and the sound palette is so much wider you can truly develop your own sound that no one else has.
That feeling first hit me back in 1993 when sampling had its first sharp dive and the producer overtook the role that the DJ once held.
Super valid point and explanation of the problem. I agree, makes perfect sense when presented in this way.
This is why 15 years deep into this game I still do business in the old way and I make 100% of my beats from scratch
You just spoke out what I‘m thinking since I began producing. In the times of Beatstars, beat production has been industrialized and there is tons of the same generic beats. This makes it not only to a massively available good, it’s also really unpersonal. You distribute something online and it gets used and there is no more work done by yourself on the project.
Furthermore, your statement proves once more what I preach almost everyday: if you want to be a good artist you need a custom sound and a custom production which can only achieved by working with one or two producers intensively. Buying beats here and there won’t give you a unique and custommade sound. But this is the key to uniqueness.
This is why I completely shut down my beatstars store and began establishing more intensive relationships to artists. I prefer working one on one in sessions over sending beats out anyway. I‘m really selective about who I work with instead of trying to get a placement at all cost. In the long run this will probably a better strategy.
this was very insightful! Thank you Benzema.
good point, but i think part of the problem are also streaming services. in order to get played in the algorithm or get onto playlist you have to sound similar to other tracks. if you do stuff that is more experimental, it is very tough to get an audience these days
The strongest video I have seen on the topic, super sharp Navie. Thank you
Thank you Joey!
I think that more producers need to be open in communicating with artists when working with each other. I can say that a lot of the artists I worked with have told me that I’m the first producer they worked with that is involved with the song and help push the song.
It also helps to release instrumental singles too that way producers can get an idea what an artist should do. Overall I’m glad that this conversation was presented 🐉🙌🏽
IF YOURE BORED STREAM M!DNIGHT I PRODUCE ALL MY BEATS
Producers and Artists are the main problem. I couldn't tell you how many artists I've met that makes the same kind of music about the same subject matter. Producers are the problem when they just roll with the punches and never challenge the artist to make different kinds of songs.
Amazing bro thanks
This was a very thorough and valid analysis brother. You nailed it and perfectly articulated the effects of the new system, in my opinion.
No shade at all to those who work in this fashion. After all, business is business. But we certainly can not deny the impact that this business model has had on the degree of innovation, within Hip Hop, that we are used to.
Great video. A lot of what you said was very informative about how the current industry works. I also think that back then there were more isolated groups of people. Seems like now with only a certain sound getting exposure more producers are being influenced by the same sound and standard.
Excellent explainer, quantified by %❤ My guy you captured the essential issues brought about by smashing creative endeavors into a de-personalised corporate microsoft teams type framework. Business and management schools will kill us all.
There was a reason many creative executives were not traditionally Ivy league MBAs. This "streamlining" which strips away all the contours of cultural products rendering them into inoffensive, easy to administer suppositories is the reason.
Great vid and completely agree
Agreed. Great points. Cannot wait for more innovation.
Me tooooo
Great video
I think this is an interesting concept. I remember Russ saying something along those lines a few years ago. A point that should also be made to elevate what you’ve said is that Artist should also be looking for something innovative as well. The ecollab can create limitations to this like you said but I think it’s a 50/50 split on artist/producer to be pushing for a reinvention of what hip hop music should sound like
I just commented same thing agree 💯
They hated him too bad for that
He was 100% right but still if ur giving opnions u gotta be best at it yourself
Russ production is decent but what he said was right
The last time I was super excited for hip hop was when I first heard Griselda. I come from the boom bap era. My goat producers are Dre DJ Premier and Timbo. Dilla too. It felt like you were getting a collab between a great rapper and a great producer. The music now feels lifeless and vapid.
If you start with The Last Poets and DJ Kool Herc, you can trace rap back to the 70s, but you don't really see it become a distinct genre until the mid 80s. That would still make it 40 years old. It's natural for genres to become a little stagnant. In some ways you could argue rock music has experienced a similar fate: started in the 50s, had a golden age in the 60s, many variations emerged from the 70s throughout the 90s, and was pretty much aesthetically repeating itself by the early 2000s, and has almost entirely faded from the mainstream since then, though there are of course many independent label artists making interesting music. I might be showing my age, but my favorite moment in rap was in the 90s-the NY gangster rap-jazz production era: Pete Rock, DJ Premier, Q Tip, Large Professor. But even in the 2000s, Timbaland and Pharrell were making some pretty unique beats. You just didn't hear it anywhere else. A lot of producers today are probably learning how to work by watching RUclips tutorials and making music that is technically proficient but common and expected. If rap is dead, well, I guess it's not very different from a lot of other things in our world. Who knows what will happen next.
lets just face it. its stagnant because it got too 'open' and lost its soul due to accessibility, technology, and "the algorithm.
This video was so good. I don't listen to hip hop, pretty much at all. It's not one single thing; it's more that I've grown out of it more than anything. There seems to be no story anymore, at least in the handful of songs I've heard in the last 10, 15 years. I grew up in the very early days of hip hop and heard groups like Leaders of the New School; Public Enemy (my all-time favorite rap group on the planet); Black Sheep; Run DMC; Beastie Boys; and then later, OutKast, and a few others, etc etc. Navie did a great job in explaining why he feels hip hop has become stuck. I think many, if not all, of his opinions are valid. Well done.
what do you mean by story? like an underdog one?
@Krill Thank you for your question. I'm referring to a beginning, middle and end to songs, a reason why the song "is". What it's about. Just from my experience.
@@beachlife8367 oh okay so like some nas, krs, wu and whatnot right? a song with an underlying theme.
@Krill Yes, give me a reason to listen. Again just from my experience, many songs are just clever sounding music with just some words...any words...over it for 2 1/2, 3 minutes and then it's like, What was that song even about? What did I just listen to? I've said this for many years now: music has become like snack food. It just tastes good, but it has no real nutritional value. It lasts a few moments and then it's on to the next thing, the next flavor, the next treat
@@beachlife8367 You summarized my thoughts perfectly. I've been thinking about that issue for a long time now and it's pretty sad how the industry has turned into 'fast food' consumption of music basically.
I've been listening to hiphop since 2016 which could be seen as the starting point for the current trend were and you are describing. I do no however recognize myself in hiphop being boring, I've been having a lot of fun with new releases. I think what could be said is that mainstream hiphop and with that i mean the very most popular artists are afwully boring, bland and repetetive. However, i feel like there is so much innovative stuff going on with lesser known artists.
Hyperpop and rage beats while still being very fundamentally true to the trap basics, are recent developments I would consider innovations within the hiphop landscape. Hyperpop is not hiphop but it is a very new thing that takes a lot from recent hiphop. Rage music is very repetitive in a lot of ways but I would still call it an innovation in respect to trap beats as we knew it beforehand.
We have a very cool indie scene going on with rappers such as, MIKE, Navy Blue, Wiki, Mavi, Akai solo. Giving a very new spin on the oldschool sound. Next to that Griselda is also bringing tons of cool stuff with Mach Hommy, Boldy James and Gunn, conway, Benny themselves. Lot of these artists been here for a minute but they are dropping a lot (a lot) of projects i personally fuck with and consider a breath of fresh air.
Also within the trap scene, I feel like there is a lot of unique talent. Jeleel, 454, Surf Gang. These artists aren't changing the fundamentals in hiphop in the sense they changed the mainstream or something like that but I still consider them to do their own thing and are not respecting trends.
What I consider one possible reason (in addition to a lot of other reasons ( its never one thing youknow, stuff is complicated)) is that hiphop has reached is in its most commercially potent state ( i think). In 2017 we had that announcement that Hiphop is officially more popular than rock in the US. It's just a rule of thumb when something is more popular and has more money, things are just gonna attract way more generic boring stuff to cash in on the trend.
So while a part of hiphop is very stale and boring and soulles, I think its a shame to define hiphop by the wave that is for a large part a commercial trend. There are so many cool artists but they are overshadowed because they don't conform to this trend. The most popular hiphip is generic and boring by default because it's not just hiphop but pop, music that is made to be generic in order to appeal to so many people. I celebrate criticism and solutions to it such as this video, its important to the culture. But what is equaly important (maybe even more) is to celebrate the smaller artists that aren't part of this trend. They are way more crucial in keeping hiphop fresh.
ALSO IF YOU WERE DISSAPOINTED BY THE JACK HARLOW ALBUM I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU EXPECT BUT ITS YOUR OWN FAULT FOR THINKING HE WAS GONNA DROP A SIGINIFICANT ALBUM LIKE COME ON.
Like how frequent is it that a mainstream thing actually changed something???
Just my thoughts, love your vids Navie, kisses and goodbye.
this!!
i heavily agree. the underground is more innovative than ever right now
lol bro you've only beem listening to hip hop 5 years you shouldn't even comment lmfao .
@@ctnative203 whats your opinion bro?
@@SaitouXD alot of beats sound repetitive, alot of melodies sound repetitive , a lot of cadence's sound very repetitive , Producers are making the same sounding beats , Rappers are rapping with the same cadence's , Every beat has 808s in it and the same drill hi hat drum roll , Auto tune charmed the game , When it Worked for t- pain everybody started using it , And alot of people were successful hell even Snoop Dogg had a hot song singing called Sexual Seduction lol , Auto tune started the Copy cat Wave we now have Have today , Swizz Beats Will ever sound like Scott storch, Dre will never sound like the Neptunes , Pac and Biggie never sounded alike but look at Future and Designer , look at Drake and Jack Harlow, you would have to had been listening to Hip Hop for a longer time to really understand but I think you get my point .
the biggest problem i’ve noticed is producers who ONLY use loops. I am by no means against chopping samples, but i’ve seen way too many producers just drag loops into FL and throw in a drum loop and call it their beat
This is so true about getting innovative ideas to artists, loop makers and producers are just making lazy music because its easy to get placed and it doesnt challenge the artists. As a producer myself im trying to start this new sound called 'Neural Music' which is a mix of trap, soundtrack, percussion, industrial and ambience. At the moment non of my beats actually reflect this on my youtube as its a type beat channel however on my Instagram I showcase it more. Now me trying to push this sound without direct connetions to an artist is almost impossible as most producers just dont have the mindset or clarity on how to push a sound or don't want to make the artists uncomfortable. Which is why in my case as person trying to bring a new sound I have to create drirect connections or close connections. For Producers it's also the lack of people that listen to different music as a music producer you should listen to all types of music to draw new ideas but sadly most hip hop producers just listen to hip hop. Personally I bearly listen to rap, more on the side of soundtrack music, industrial music, and ambient music. Which is why I have my sound.
So what im getting at is a solution for producers is to do your best to create a direct connection with artists and not going through other producers for your oppurtunities. Also for producers to explore more genres of music so they create their own sound. Because nowadays if i go through my loop email most loops or melodies sound exactly the same, same sounds, same effects and just lazy overall. More thought has to be put into it for us producers to create new ideas.
V inspiring Navie! Sometimes I feel like my output isn't enough but I'd rather make 5 beats a week that I acc care about than 30 that are mid, problem is it's too easy to get into the routine and actual innovation doesn't feel like progress, but it's the essence of what we're doing! Fs gonna cook up now 👌
Best of luck on your cookup
@@NavieD much love ❤ keep doing what ur doing!
Well spoken, but another problem that may cause this is that making music is becoming very accessible for everyone and how many people are really enyoing the process of it? The main focus for some producers is just the money, because of how the industry is built today. They are just simply following a formula on making beats and that's where the actual creativity dies. I hope something changes soon, but it's gonna be hard as Rick said, not everyone is gonna like the new innovation. But keep up the good work bro cus I really enjoy this channel, much love!🙌
100%! I love collaborating but I think this tier for tier status of producers trying to make a name or support themselves. But the negativity affect will result in what we have today. Everyone wanting a piece of the pie. Not even know how the pie is gonna end.
I like that you are thinking about these issues
I believe producers need to put out their own projects, like you said.
Nobody's listening to a acapella projects as producers it's all about the beat might need to start dropping More instrumental projects and let the rappers find what they like
Been doing that and was wondering if anyone actually listened to instrumental stuff besides me. Got my answer