Please just ask if you've any questions? Don't forget the full categorised index of all my videos at www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/ If you'd like to make a small donation towards my testing, I have a Kofi page: "Buy me a coffee" ko-fi.com/keithcooper See the video notes for books and links. Buying stuff? I also have some affiliate links which earn me a small commission if used. US Amazon photo/print gear: amzn.to/3l9vJC6 B&H Photo: www.bhphotovideo.com/?BI=2008&KBID=2711&DFF=d10-v1-t8-x4 Adorama: www.adorama.com/?
Great video! We (Red River Paper) often have customers ask us simply "what is the best paper?" and my answer is always that it all depends! Every paper has its own characteristics (gamut volume being one of several factors) and thus its own use cases.
@@KeithCooper Let me help you with answering those questions. Best Printer - Canon Best Camera - Canon Best Ink - Canon Best RUclips channel - Northlight Images Best Cheese Burgers - Burger Master in north Seattle. :🤣 On a more serious note; I think this video has great advice & information and I encourage you to cover more color management. I felt self imposed pressure I should know more about color gamut, now I’m free!!
Thank you, Keith, for another great video. In my early professional life as a lawyer I quickly ran into the problem of how to express a simple thought when I was dealing with a complex issue. Whenever I made a clear and simple statement, I would be ignoring several issues, exceptions, variables, etc. On the other hand, if I tried to express some of the nuances, my listener would likely miss the point. We are all constantly faced with this dilemma when discussing as complex a subject as photographic digital printing. In this video, I think you’ve struck just the right balance between directedness and complexity. Your analogy of a paper’s color gamut to the fastest possible speed of a car was spot on. In and of itself, both statistics are relatively insignificant. You know so much about your subject - but you don’t want to confuse the issue by saying more than is necessary to make your point. Other times, you throw in a lot of extra information in the hope of presenting a more complete picture. As one of your long-time subscribers, I try to listen carefully and think about the essence of your message. It’s always worth the effort. Thanks again.
Especially when attempting to explain all of these nuances to people who are new to the printing game, it’s quite useful to have a video like yours to help us sort the signal from the noise. In my day job as electrical engineer, I encounter examples of pointless specmanship every single day, it is a superpower to know what to ignore. Thanks for helping clear the waters.
I’m so grateful to have found you, Keith! Refreshing honesty, experience and opinion. My Canon Pro-1100 arrives Monday. I found your channel (and website reviews) last week after already having made the purchase. I’m looking forward to all my mistakes and learning. And when the print comes out terrible, I’ll remember exactly whose fault it is! 😂 Cheers!
Social media influencers (not this one) constantly tell us that if we don't obsess over this sort of thing then we're just not part of the program. Thankfully, I got over it and decided to keep things at a level at which there's a discernible and not just a scientifically measurable difference.
Something I found interesting with my Eizo monitor is that the monitor will emulate various papers. You go through the process and monitor white profile can be created to match any paper. It also stores all the various color spaces, Adobe, DPI etc. switchable in the menu. The calibrator swings down from the bezel and operates automatically, doing a cal on a schedule you set in the software. They also have A+ support out of California.
Sounds more useful than the BenQ version of this which is limited to papers/printers they have tested. It's been a while since I last tested an Eizo monitor...
Excellent educational video. I think, unfortunately, photography and audio reproduction both attract a huge amount of marketing technobabble and pseudo or spurious technical data. It's good to see it addressed and put in its place in such a matter-of-fact way.
Excellent piece on gamut. I'd love to hear your comments sometime on applying the Ansel Adams Zone System to digital photography. When I think of what I want to reproduce on paper, I think of paper whites and blacks, but with detail in both when there should be detail. Sometimes you don't want detail--depends on what you're trying to achieve. Might be an interesting discussion looking at gamut and the Zone System.
Thanks. That reminds me of a guest article we published on the Northlight site from 2011 www.northlight-images.co.uk/digitals-analogue-ettr-and-exposure/ A digital 'zone system' approach for me is more something I tend consider for image capture, where I'm looking for optimal 'data quality' in my raw files. I just don't think of printing tonality this way. I've the three AA books and see very clearly how the zone system can be of use - when you have that degree of control over film processing, and have the resources to go out and do all the calibration/testing. One area I've been disappointed with for about 20 years now, is that not one camera maker [AFAIK] offers a form of ETTR exposure metering in camera. With 'always on' sensors and modern levels of processing, this should be an easy one to implement... Of course, just how many know about ETTR is an unanswered question.
Keith, I really love your approach to "the numbers" 😂😉. That said, after watching many of your videos (and by all means, learning a lot), I can say that after calibrating and profiling my monitor for photo editing, setting up my printer software (in my case, Canon PPL) with the correct ICC profile, proper lighting in the room where I sit and edit my images, and using a neutral gray background color where my monitor is, I have to say that I am very happy with what I manage to produce in terms of prints with my limited knowledge of photo editing. What I get out of the printer is almost identical to what I see on the screen. While I find your videos interesting and educational, it does (in my opinion) become a bit of navel-gazing (or hair-splitting if you will) when you drill down into what you cover. What you (often) bring up is probably in most cases only of academic interest (for most people) and for those who want to nerd out in the smallest detail, but for the vast majority a good print is a good print, no matter what if you understand me correctly. But as I said, what you often bring up is interesting, informative and educational and I will definitely continue to take part in your videos. Finally, a question, (although I think the answer is given); Couldn't you make a comparison between the standalone photo editing programs Darktable and Gimp to see how they compare from a color management perspective!? With all due respect; Mr.T
Thanks - I'm all for making use of 'the numbers' but just keeping them 'in context' ;-) Yes, the detail can be excessive for some, but it's less than the articles and it is 'what I do' ;-) Two packages I'm not looked at for a long while [at least 20 years for gimp] - they fall into the 'why' category for me...
1. Actually contrary to your perception Coop passes by a lot of tech nerdy detail - a lot, in favor of layman's explanations. He does this on purpose to avoid going down rabbit holes. 2. He's not going to make a comparison video about two niche softwares that few people use and he never uses, and there is a lesson in that - there is too much available information in photography to begin with and unless you are writing an encyclopedia you really need to know what to ignore.
Thank you for this Keith. I had always wondered if the gamut question was important or not. To my finely tuned Mk 1 eyeball my pictures seem Ok, so I've always discounted gamut as a technical aspect of printing that really didn't seem to affect me or my prints. It's what looks good to me that counts.
Agree 100% that gamut volume is a rather inconsequential parameter on it’s own compared to other characteristics though gamut volume, shape, and color range are valid considerations.
You are redundant here, gamut is gamut, "volume, color range, shape" are the same thing. What matters is that a workflow be consistent across hardware & software.
@@johnsmith1474 No, not really. Keith was speaking to "gamut volume" which is one characterization of gamut. Gamuts can display deficiencies due to improper profiling or simply paper/coating issues. These can lead to "holes", abrupt transitions, deficiencies in certain colors, and other issues.
@@KeithCooper Precisely, and those who look at or sell papers based on gamut volume are doing so largely for marketing reasons. As you indicated, there are so many characteristics which are far more important.
Thanks. Unlikely, for a few reasons I'm afraid... I don't really do 'full tutorials' - there is plenty of 'how to make a print' stuff in and linked from the main review [the written one - the videos are supplements] www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-pro-200-printer-review/ Secondly - I don't ever shoot jpegs - I've not done so since I got my first proper DSLR [Canon 1Ds] in 2003 - remember my 'day job' is as an architectural and industrial photographer. I regard them as unsuitable for general editing for print. It's fine to export a processed image from an editing package as a full quality jpeg and print it, but not for any degree of editing. Thirdly - what editing software, what system? I only use Photoshop on Macs for most of my work - Whilst I have a few walkthrough videos they concentrate on the principles of what I'm doing and why, never step by step guides
I think this saying stolen from a friend decades ago applies here: Measure with a micrometer, mark with a chalk line and cut it with a chainsaw. I don't think I need to provide a graph...... :^D
Absolutely. A bit like soft proofing itself, it is a tool for occasional use when you need it. Having it on automatically just makes it too easy to be bothered by something which likely does not matter.
The right answer is it doesn't matter. Why? Because after your 8550 content probably 90% of this community owns one (including me) and the ink cost is so low, you can afford to throw out multiple test prints.
Please just ask if you've any questions? Don't forget the full categorised index of all my videos at www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/ If you'd like to make a small donation towards my testing, I have a Kofi page: "Buy me a coffee" ko-fi.com/keithcooper See the video notes for books and links.
Buying stuff? I also have some affiliate links which earn me a small commission if used.
US Amazon photo/print gear: amzn.to/3l9vJC6
B&H Photo: www.bhphotovideo.com/?BI=2008&KBID=2711&DFF=d10-v1-t8-x4
Adorama: www.adorama.com/?
Great video!
We (Red River Paper) often have customers ask us simply "what is the best paper?" and my answer is always that it all depends! Every paper has its own characteristics (gamut volume being one of several factors) and thus its own use cases.
Thanks - I always slightly dread 'what is best' questions, since 'it depends' is rarely what people want to hear ;-)
@@KeithCooper Let me help you with answering those questions.
Best Printer - Canon
Best Camera - Canon
Best Ink - Canon
Best RUclips channel - Northlight Images
Best Cheese Burgers - Burger Master in north Seattle.
:🤣
On a more serious note; I think this video has great advice & information and I encourage you to cover more color management. I felt self imposed pressure I should know more about color gamut, now I’m free!!
@@gary4739 One to remember when I'm next in Seattle ;-)
As to the first three - it depends ;-)
Thank you, Keith, for another great video. In my early professional life as a lawyer I quickly ran into the problem of how to express a simple thought when I was dealing with a complex issue. Whenever I made a clear and simple statement, I would be ignoring several issues, exceptions, variables, etc. On the other hand, if I tried to express some of the nuances, my listener would likely miss the point. We are all constantly faced with this dilemma when discussing as complex a subject as photographic digital printing.
In this video, I think you’ve struck just the right balance between directedness and complexity. Your analogy of a paper’s color gamut to the fastest possible speed of a car was spot on. In and of itself, both statistics are relatively insignificant. You know so much about your subject - but you don’t want to confuse the issue by saying more than is necessary to make your point. Other times, you throw in a lot of extra information in the hope of presenting a more complete picture. As one of your long-time subscribers, I try to listen carefully and think about the essence of your message. It’s always worth the effort. Thanks again.
Thank you - I appreciate you observing that
Especially when attempting to explain all of these nuances to people who are new to the printing game, it’s quite useful to have a video like yours to help us sort the signal from the noise. In my day job as electrical engineer, I encounter examples of pointless specmanship every single day, it is a superpower to know what to ignore. Thanks for helping clear the waters.
Thanks - appreciate that!
I’m so grateful to have found you, Keith! Refreshing honesty, experience and opinion. My Canon Pro-1100 arrives Monday. I found your channel (and website reviews) last week after already having made the purchase. I’m looking forward to all my mistakes and learning. And when the print comes out terrible, I’ll remember exactly whose fault it is! 😂 Cheers!
Glad to help
Social media influencers (not this one) constantly tell us that if we don't obsess over this sort of thing then we're just not part of the program. Thankfully, I got over it and decided to keep things at a level at which there's a discernible and not just a scientifically measurable difference.
Spot on ;-)
Something I found interesting with my Eizo monitor is that the monitor will emulate various papers. You go through the process and monitor white profile can be created to match any paper. It also stores all the various color spaces, Adobe, DPI etc. switchable in the menu. The calibrator swings down from the bezel and operates automatically, doing a cal on a schedule you set in the software. They also have A+ support out of California.
I just got one, how do you set up the paper emulation?
Sounds more useful than the BenQ version of this which is limited to papers/printers they have tested.
It's been a while since I last tested an Eizo monitor...
I think this is the best explanation I have ever understood, Thank you so much .I have learned so much from you!!!
Thanks - glad to have helped!
Excellent educational video.
I think, unfortunately, photography and audio reproduction both attract a huge amount of marketing technobabble and pseudo or spurious technical data.
It's good to see it addressed and put in its place in such a matter-of-fact way.
Thanks! Glad it was of interest.
Another impressive video. Thanks Keith
Glad you enjoyed it
Excellent piece on gamut. I'd love to hear your comments sometime on applying the Ansel Adams Zone System to digital photography. When I think of what I want to reproduce on paper, I think of paper whites and blacks, but with detail in both when there should be detail. Sometimes you don't want detail--depends on what you're trying to achieve. Might be an interesting discussion looking at gamut and the Zone System.
Thanks.
That reminds me of a guest article we published on the Northlight site from 2011
www.northlight-images.co.uk/digitals-analogue-ettr-and-exposure/
A digital 'zone system' approach for me is more something I tend consider for image capture, where I'm looking for optimal 'data quality' in my raw files.
I just don't think of printing tonality this way. I've the three AA books and see very clearly how the zone system can be of use - when you have that degree of control over film processing, and have the resources to go out and do all the calibration/testing.
One area I've been disappointed with for about 20 years now, is that not one camera maker [AFAIK] offers a form of ETTR exposure metering in camera. With 'always on' sensors and modern levels of processing, this should be an easy one to implement...
Of course, just how many know about ETTR is an unanswered question.
Thanks Keith! Looks quite interesting. I'll have a read on it. 🙂
Keith, I really love your approach to "the numbers" 😂😉.
That said, after watching many of your videos (and by all means, learning a lot), I can say that after calibrating and profiling my monitor for photo editing, setting up my printer software (in my case, Canon PPL) with the correct ICC profile, proper lighting in the room where I sit and edit my images, and using a neutral gray background color where my monitor is, I have to say that I am very happy with what I manage to produce in terms of prints with my limited knowledge of photo editing. What I get out of the printer is almost identical to what I see on the screen.
While I find your videos interesting and educational, it does (in my opinion) become a bit of navel-gazing (or hair-splitting if you will) when you drill down into what you cover. What you (often) bring up is probably in most cases only of academic interest (for most people) and for those who want to nerd out in the smallest detail, but for the vast majority a good print is a good print, no matter what if you understand me correctly.
But as I said, what you often bring up is interesting, informative and educational and I will definitely continue to take part in your videos.
Finally, a question, (although I think the answer is given); Couldn't you make a comparison between the standalone photo editing programs Darktable and Gimp to see how they compare from a color management perspective!?
With all due respect;
Mr.T
Thanks - I'm all for making use of 'the numbers' but just keeping them 'in context' ;-)
Yes, the detail can be excessive for some, but it's less than the articles and it is 'what I do' ;-)
Two packages I'm not looked at for a long while [at least 20 years for gimp] - they fall into the 'why' category for me...
1. Actually contrary to your perception Coop passes by a lot of tech nerdy detail - a lot, in favor of layman's explanations. He does this on purpose to avoid going down rabbit holes.
2. He's not going to make a comparison video about two niche softwares that few people use and he never uses, and there is a lesson in that - there is too much available information in photography to begin with and unless you are writing an encyclopedia you really need to know what to ignore.
Thank you for this Keith. I had always wondered if the gamut question was important or not. To my finely tuned Mk 1 eyeball my pictures seem Ok, so I've always discounted gamut as a technical aspect of printing that really didn't seem to affect me or my prints. It's what looks good to me that counts.
Yes - it's a factor, but unless you are working in pre-press and repro, not one to unduly worry about.
Agree 100% that gamut volume is a rather inconsequential parameter on it’s own compared to other characteristics though gamut volume, shape, and color range are valid considerations.
Yes - lots of factors come into play - just not the simple option many consider.
You are redundant here, gamut is gamut, "volume, color range, shape" are the same thing. What matters is that a workflow be consistent across hardware & software.
@@johnsmith1474 No, not really. Keith was speaking to "gamut volume" which is one characterization of gamut. Gamuts can display deficiencies due to improper profiling or simply paper/coating issues. These can lead to "holes", abrupt transitions, deficiencies in certain colors, and other issues.
@@KeithCooper Precisely, and those who look at or sell papers based on gamut volume are doing so largely for marketing reasons. As you indicated, there are so many characteristics which are far more important.
it's a great tutorial, hope you will make a complete tutorial for people who take fuji jpeg and want to print these pictures
Thanks.
Unlikely, for a few reasons I'm afraid...
I don't really do 'full tutorials' - there is plenty of 'how to make a print' stuff in and linked from the main review [the written one - the videos are supplements]
www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-pro-200-printer-review/
Secondly - I don't ever shoot jpegs - I've not done so since I got my first proper DSLR [Canon 1Ds] in 2003 - remember my 'day job' is as an architectural and industrial photographer.
I regard them as unsuitable for general editing for print. It's fine to export a processed image from an editing package as a full quality jpeg and print it, but not for any degree of editing.
Thirdly - what editing software, what system? I only use Photoshop on Macs for most of my work - Whilst I have a few walkthrough videos they concentrate on the principles of what I'm doing and why, never step by step guides
I think this saying stolen from a friend decades ago applies here: Measure with a micrometer, mark with a chalk line and cut it with a chainsaw.
I don't think I need to provide a graph...... :^D
Excellent...
Would you recommend turning off the gamut indicators in Lightroom when soft proofing?
Absolutely.
A bit like soft proofing itself, it is a tool for occasional use when you need it.
Having it on automatically just makes it too easy to be bothered by something which likely does not matter.
@@KeithCooper Thanks Keith, one less thing to worry\distract me
The right answer is it doesn't matter. Why? Because after your 8550 content probably 90% of this community owns one (including me) and the ink cost is so low, you can afford to throw out multiple test prints.
Yes - that could well be so ;-)
You forgot to drink your tea...
Nope - coffee and it was just fine when I finished ;-)
@@KeithCooper 😄