Andraste {Lore - No Spoilers}
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- Опубликовано: 12 авг 2021
- Welcome, welcome! Want to know more about the great prophet in Thedas? Trying to grasp why your faithful inquisitor likes the Chantry? Like confusing stories? Then come and listen to what is known~
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This video does not contain story spoilers for the Dragon Age games and other related media.
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Игры
Near the end of this video, Andraste was depicted as ginger only by the banter between Sera and Cassandra
Cassandra: "The eye is wreathed in fire. The Light of the Maker and the flames of Andraste's Sacrifice."
Sera: "Oooooh. You need better painters. I just figured she was ginger."
Cassandra: "She was."
Guess she was, not the kind of things Cassandra would joke about.
Fun fact: Andraste was the name of a goddess of war worshipped by the Celts of ancient Britain. When Boudicca was rebelling against the Romans, she was known to impale captured Roman soldiers as a sacrifical offering to Andraste.
Morrigan is also a figure from Celtic mythology :)
@@AzuraBlackHeart And a shapeshifter, no less.
@@AzuraBlackHeart Yes, in fact she is often called The Morrigan, phantom goddess, goddess of battle. Her favored animals were the crow and the wolf. I was happy to see the details of The Morrigan that were reflected in Dragon Age's Morrigan.
@@AzuraBlackHeart yep, something with that root "mor-" or "mar-", basically for naming some renowned dark mythological chicks: Morrigan, Morgana, Mara, etc.
Isn't all of this just cheerful to think about.
I actually like the conflicting stories. Just like in real life religion can be incredibly conflicting due to different books or translations etc. So my head cannon is that they just have conflicting stories about Andraste, though I know it's more likely the devs and writers just had different ideas for the lore that conflicted in later games and tried to retcon 😂
I was so annoyed at first because I’m the type of person who wants facts and the story all laid out for me to find and when it’s conflicting everywhere I got upset lol. But like you said, they might have done it on purpose to reflect real life religion
@@williamballard767 I’m pretty positive it’s on purpose. While there’s no doubt mistakes (as anything with so many writers will have) the history of Thedas being wrong and misremembered is a pretty notable feature of Dragon Age’s world building. And given we know the Chantry likes to bend the truth, Shartan and Inquisitor Ameridan for example, the story of Andraste being wrong and/contradictory makes a lot of sense.
Same thoughts. There is already schism between Tevinter and Olesian Chantry with the former believing Andraste being a mere mage.
@@KikomochiMendoza I actually believe she was a mage based on her story, but I don't think it dismisses the belief that she could be the Bride of the Maker.I don't think those two things are at odds at all. Hell I think it makes way more sense if Andraste had an innate connection to magic.
@@dunnejos8423it makes you wonder if when the original team at Bioware took a look at Catholicism and Buddhism, the reason i mentioned them is because the chant of light part you can compare to the beliefs of the Catholic faith. out of all the Christian religions of the world, they believe they are the true church, of course you have others that try to make there case. but what they all have in common is Jesus Christ, they all have a belief in him, but what separates them is, they all have there own view. so you can see where Bioware took some things from life and just kinda pieced a story together, but i also mentioned Buddhism for a reason. because in Buddhism the original belief was, Budda was visited by the gods because they achieved what we know today as obtaining spiritual enlightenment. so the part about the Maker choosing Andraste to be his bride, what did she do to get that kinda favor or blessing from a god. so when i read different things about Andraste, i get different thoughts, but that is true about religion in general. no matter which side we all fall on, everyone always has there opinion, but that's where you can run into an issue or problem. now the part about Andraste that's a little unclear is how she's viewed among the elves, if you go by the dalish view they remember her as someone that was a rebel similar to Tevinter's view. but then there are other dalish clans that dismiss her completely, City Elves since there more around humans there most likely to go with the most common view. the Qunari and Dwarves are the only one's that don't have an opinion one way or another, part of it is because there mainly about there own people especially dwarves. but elves have been so far removed from the days of Arlathan, most of them would be split among there beliefs. most modern elves don't even know most of there ancient gods, now that's only because Bioware changed so much about the dalish, because the original writer wanted them to be related to ancient elves. it's why every keeper did whatever they could to find any lore, so originally they already knew who Mythal was, same with Fen'harel, but the studio has changed so much since Origins, now it's reverse, they changed it to who is Mythal, our Inquisitor if you play a dalish they come across as dumb, but that's what happens when people change things in the story. because now you have no choice but to accept where things are now. but getting back to the humans side, they changed things about Andraste to, in Origins i can't recall anybody saying anything different than what the Chant of Light said about her. the part about Tevinter was added to Dorian's dialogue, so from his point of view they believe she was a mage. now mother Gizelle gives an interesting perspective about her when you ask her, and even she mentions about a rebellion and an exalted march. now if we play as an elven Inquisitor, they'll bring up the part about the dales, but she made the claim that it wasn't so one sided. so it's possible that the dalish don't know the full story, if you play as a human she answers that question a little different, but she still gives a similar answer. now it's possible she might be a bit misinformed herself, Orleis we know for sure have been known to enslave people. Loghain comes to mind when you talk to him. during the exalted council meeting in Tresspasser, on the Ferelden side you have a frustrated Teagan he's seen too much drama in one lifetime, then on Orleis side, there hoping to use the Inquisition to further themselves in some way.
Ever since I came across that book in the Orzammar Shaperate in DA:O which says Andraste was a powerful mage, always thought that was the case
Wouldn’t be the first time the chantry has buried something like that, such as Inquisitor Ameridan being an elven mage for example
Futhermore, I’m guessing she was probably a dreamer too… if she spent her time chatting to the maker who’s home is the golden / black city at the centre of the fade
Honestly I'm with Tevinter her story just screams Mage her spending days alone in a Tranquil like state the crazy natural disasters. First time I went to the temple I had Oghren and his dialogue about the crazy magic be caused by the temple basically being built on Lyrium.
She just sound like an abomination like like Wynne or Flameth. Even her only having daughters feels contractual. To the people of Thedas her magic probably looked like miracles especially if it was all perpetrated by a powerful spirit.
I kind of do hope its both like this spirit had great influence but isn't doing the "Elves are responsible for everything bit" because even if its a spirit if it was powerful you might as well claim it was a god
It's the Elves lol. I mean, it's starting to sound like Andraste contained a fragment of Mythal.
And yet she preached that magic should serve man not rule over him. Seems...counter productive to a mage no?
@Star Wars Chronicler | I would say no, actually. I mean, Tevinter actually uses this same logic. They just say that they are serving man because they know what is right and what people need. It's politics. It's a platform. It's taking what she is, potentially, and making it the antithesis to an empire that was subjugating everyone. Our leaders in our governments are public servants. She is using her power and charisma to server the people against the tyranny of the Tevinter empire. However, she was also a leader. She may not have called anything she did rule. But people followed her and she ordered them to do things. But then, is it the idea that people with magic should serve people and not rule them, or is it that magic should not be used to force rule and should be used instead to serve the people in general? It's nitpicky, but I don't think Andraste would have ever claimed a person with magic cannot rule. If someone was elected to a position of power because of their character and good works, that would be fine. But Tevinter was a bunch of mages using their power and fear to rule over the people and each other. If you were a mage and you could cast fire out of your hands, should you use that ability to burn your enemies in order to rule with fear, or use it to kill Darkspawn, or light the festival bonfire, or make really nice pies? It's just a simply difference being being selfish, egotistical prats, and having compassion for your fellow human beings.
@PenitentDeadMan308 T | I think the Urn of Sacred Ashes has to be ambiguous, because The Maker and Andraste has to be ambiguous. In reality, for the player, both a world in which The Maker is real and everything the Chantry says is right/close and a world in which it's all religious bunk are equally valid. In truth, we have no way to even prove that the ashes in the urn are Andraste's. If the belief is that the are then there are a lot of ways that could be true. She is blessed of The Maker, she was possessed by a spirit of healing, she had innate healing gifts as a mage that were preserved in her remains. All of those could be completely true. Or, we have the other side where it was some big hoax. Maybe it's a healing powder, or a healing powder mixed with burnt wood and herbs. Maybe it is Andraste's ashes but it was the lyrium under the temple that did something to the "organic" material. It apparently can make a copy of Leliana with her memories, so making "healy dust" doesn't seem that hard. Maybe the Veil is weak and spirits can just do things, and you going there with just a strong desire to heal someone, and belief the ashes could do it moved a spirit to do something. It's not like Arl Eamon is facing some thousand year old curse. It's just Loghain and Jowan. But the gameplay has to allow for a player to be "wow, my character totally believes in this and I relate to this and it is important to me" and also "hahahaha, Chantry stupid bad. All idiots." Which is actually pretty easy to do. It's supposed to be ambiguous. Even Brother Genetivi has a bloody moral crisis when he finds more truth of the elvhan stuff. Their religion is based on stories told by men. And men have agendas. What we get from those stories is generally more important than the story itself.
@@Pink_Sinthetic it also maybe that the Temple is built on top of a heart of a titan. Which would be more intense than any dwarven mines. Like one Titan had an entire atmosphere inside of it in the DLC.
@PenitentDeadMan308 T SPOILERS! TURN BACK IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY
I often wounder what Lyrium is, we are told it's the blood of the titans, but also a gift from the stone, that it links the fade and our world. The Fade is the realm of ideas not separate but occupying the same space as ours, a frequency and filter between them keeps them apart, the Veil. I posit it may be, that the reason the temple is magical/miraculous isn't because of the lyrium, but rather, the other way around, The temple is magical and there for their is Lyrium. That magical places attract or spawn lyrium, the titans are simply being made of it, it's there blood in the same way our blood is water. Made of it.
I think it's the essence of makeing things that are REAL but also ideas, that something, the link that makes something more then just an idea, that makes it living, that makes something a THING. That is why titans stirred with the breach I think, They felt the other half of them, that, IDEA of them, get closer then it had been in a long time very suddenly, very violently. So it reached through the Lyrium, the "blood" in it's "veins" mingling with the raw natural Lyrium around and through out it. Something about the temple, the faith, the realness, the holy nature of it made lyrium appear there, either form somewhere else or from nothing. Perhaps Lyrium is the very essence of making things real. of "being" in all it's forms. The "material" that generates the song of creation if you will.
Conclusion: The Maker fandom is a lil spicy
There is no way it can be a coincidence that she was born the same year as the end of the first blight. Perhaps she was conceived in the same way as Kieran, Morrigan's son?
This is a good theory, but I thought that a child born from such a ritual would take on the body that corresponded to the Old God's gender? The first Archdemon to rise up was Dumat, who presented as a man.
@@AquaswanOfficial While it's a point against I don't think that disproves the theory though, as it is never specifically stated that that would be the case. Kiren being a male could be a conincidence.
@@ducky36F I'm not claiming its grounds enough to disprove the theory, just something we should keep in mind. It could be relevant, is all. Kieran sharing the same gender presentation as Urthemiel could very well be coincidence.
@@AquaswanOfficial We're talking about a soul here, and of a being that is barely understood. It's fair to say that gender may be of little consequence to such a being.
@@damvid21 yes, spirits as we've seen throughout the series seem to be genderless with the few exceptions like Cole and the Archdemons being described in a binary way. Their identity may not have any effect on what their vessel is in context of the ritual, but it might. We don't know.
*puts on hat for another mage theory* Could She have been a mage, who accidentally killed her sister coming into her power? and because they're at war with tevinter and "magic is bad!" She gets made tranquil? (Being still). At some point later (maybe when she's captured) she is then touched by a spirit. (Cassandra says you need to basically be without food and water and sit in a dark room, ironically be tranquil, and all that) and in coincindentally doing all this, she (hears the maker?) And is lifted from the tranquillity and she is granted some sort of power, (do mages get all there powers back? or just there emotions?) Maybe if she got s power back, it was one that helps her in rallying people to her side? 🤔 "They didn't know it, but she was the first ever seeker". Just thinking out loud
Sounds like flemeth, and how mithal came to her
I’m so interested in finding out more about Andraste and the maker in the games.
We will probably get to know more about the Golden city in DA4, I hope it brings to light sone new infromation about the Maker!
Yeah, this whole stuff about andrastian religion got me more intrigued than the other part of the lore
We'll likely get more history on what Solus did with the Veil and the elvhan pantheon. But we know they are never going to confirm or deny if the Maker exists. Andrastian religion too closely mirrors concepts from Christianity. We know that the elvhan gods weren't actually gods, nor were the old ones or the forgotten ones. But to confirm or deny the existence of the Maker or give a definite truth to any of that mythos would actually be a pretty bad step. Not to mention, in no way can we let the Chantry know they are right about anything. And they are too hardheaded to believe they were wrong. Hence, having your PC find any truth would be about as effective as you finding out God definitely did exist, and told the Pope. He'd just agree with you. You tell him God doesn't exist, he would consider you a lost child. Even though the lore does keep brushing up against things in the Chant of Light, they are sticking closer to all their really made up stuff instead of the Christian allegories. Like Ghil said, they dropped the cross from the first book cause that would be even MORE on the nose than it already all is.
I want both the chantry and the tevinter versions to be true. The fact about her being a mage or not. Its the perfect dragon age protagonist detail that we choose her class.
I feel like Andraste would be a really cool protagonist, but maybe more of a DLC thing? Because I feel like character creation (and role playing) is like the most important part of dragon age IMO
@@christiandrake5745 that would be hilarious though. That the chantry is so stupid that they confused andraste as a elven male mage😂
Still a fan of the idea that Mythal, Andrastie and Flemith are are retellings of the same story.
Mythal, Andraste, Flemeth, the Lady of the Skies… I’m with you man!
Yeah I’ve been thinking of that for a while, too
my predictions for the ultimate Andraste reveal:
Andraste was...
[x] elf-blooded
[x] in love with Shartan
[x] a mage
[x] an old god baby
[x] taken over by Mythal
[x] carried over into Flemeth
[x] a direct ancestor of Morrigan
[x] blighted and wanted to die before she became a ghoul and thought that she wouldn't spread the blight if she burned alive
[ ] a great singer
[ ] blonde
False. She is a great singer because she is Leliana.
@@avryantoinette, I can't agree with that last bit about Andraste being Leliana, maybe a like a reincarnation sort of thing.
@@xer_7438 It's mostly a crack theory haha. I more *wish* it was true than actually believe it.
Honestly I like that there's massive contradictions and multiple versions of events because that's exactly what happens when real people become mythologised and a major religion is founded ostensibly based on their teachings.
As is typically with this kind of thing, the case, what became the Chantry was just one of many early sects and cults that arose following the death of Andraste, each of whom would differ in the details and dogmas in part or in whole, and most of which would either be stamped out or absorbed as one cult (with Drakon's backing) became dominant over the others. The "absorbed" part is likely where certain fundamental inconsistencies arise as region that have converted to the "true faith" nonetheless retain some older traditions and beliefs, which over the centuries seems back into the larger culture largely through academia.
Add to that a thousand years of politicking, revisionist history, folkloric influence, the schism with the Tevinter chant, the war with the Dales (who seemed to hold their own beliefs about Andraste, which was probably the main source of friction) and no less than three more blights (prior to DAO) and it'd be shocking if the whole thing wasn't a garbled, inconsistent mess.
It's one of the reasons why making each codex entry an in-universe document is such a genius way on conveying lore over the course of several games. It allows the developers to be flexible and attribute any conflict between what's been written and what is shown to the good old "unreliable narrator". Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if some of these accounts are deliberately contradictory precisely for this purpose.
Personally I'm very much in the "Andraste was an OGB and a mage" camp. Primarily because she was born the same year Dumat was slain and yet the lore seems to take pains to draw no significance from this fact. Could be a red herring of course but given the shenanigans with her sister, the dreams and the thing with Sundermount, it seems like a fairly safe bet.
One thing that did occur to me while listening to this was: what if the betrayal wasn't even a betrayal at all? What if the whole thing was Andraste's idea? What if she saw her crusade was flagging, and decided the only way to give her followers the chance of lasting freedom from Tevinter was to talk Maferath into handing her over and thus martyring herself? I don't have anything to back it up beyond it actually giving her a little bit more agency in her story and her legacy.
Bold theory
My personal theory is that andraste was born after dumat's defeat and she is an old god baby and flemeth is andraste's decendant giving her power as we don't know if the soul of an old god is hereditary or not and flemeth is the most likely of her decendants to give in to being possessed by Mythal and Solas took Mythal but flemeth with the soul of dumat she will return to thedas
If she turns out to have been an elf I’m going to laugh my ass off
Wow that’s a lot of info! It is implied that the warden who performed the final death blow to Dumat didn’t live (I believe it’s in the codex entry in DAO) so the Dark Ritual didn’t happen.
Also it is stated that Flemeth would be giving her ‘Godhood’ to Morrigan. Not a soul of an Archdemon.
@@williamballard767 @William Ballard I don't think they ever say who killed dumat only that he died doing it but if someone died killing a god don't you think they would remember their name maybe they knew it would kill them did the ritual and faked their death and Morrigan isn't flemeth's biological daughter she stole her and it is only a theory
@@TheCorrodedMan that would be hilarious
I have a slightly different but similar theory that Halliserre was an OGB, and Dumat was channelled over to her during the incident her youth. We even have a Morrigan stand-in with Halliserre's mother, who was an arcanist who spoke of the old gods. I also believe the soul then went into Archon Hessarian upon Andraste's execution, but I have no clue where it could have gone after that.
Yeees, I *love* Chantry lore. I'm so excited for this series tbh.
A few things that support your theory in that the writers will go with the WOT description and something about her portrayal in-game.
- So, we have a Codex entry from Celene to her Ambassador to Ferelden - Codex: Culture of Ferelden - in which Celene sorta roasts Ferelden for a couple of lines until she says *'...They are the coarse, wilful, dirty, disorganized people who somehow gave rise to our prophet...'* If anyone was gonna claim that Andraste was born in Jader, meaning Orlais, it would the empress of Orlais. But Celene doesn't. Honestly, it's more likely that Justinia II was trying to rewrite history and spin it in Orlais favour, and therefore the Chantry's due to their close ties, and we can maybe dismiss her claims as an in lore misinformation that happens sometimes.
- About her depiction as blonde or redhead... There is actually a little caption on The Art of Dragon Age, pg. 240, (because even the bloody *artbook* has lore) that says something interesting about Andraste; *'An Orlesian triptych depicts Andraste as a warrior and a matriarch where a more crudely drawn Fereldan panel focuses principally on her as a warrior. Images based on and illuminating the Chant differ depending on culture, even if the subject matter is the same.'* . Honestly, this not only calls to attention the difference between the two countries but also how there might be more depictions of Andraste depending on the region.
Also, I wonder if her blonde hair is somehow in relation to the Valmonts since Celene and Judicael I seem to have pale hair, maybe there are other Valmonts that had too. It's not _too_ crazy considering how we know they aren't afraid of exploiting the Chantry for political clout; see Divine Amara III. Also, that depiction appears in the Winter Palace's little chantry saying that Celene's aunt painted it, granted that might be just because it's tradition at this point, but I thought to mention it.
Great work Caitie!
Big fan of the theory that, of the two of her daughters, one line runs to Leliana and the other to Morrigan.
Catie you beautiful beast, this is exactly what I've wanted from you for literal literal literal literal years. I am so excited and loved every single second. Thank you, thank you, thank you! All hail the chantry phase! I am so excited for this, so pumped! Also, the Fandom on AO3 has been exploding lately if you've seen
The Shapers of Orzammar has Andraste recorded as being a mage in the memmories. Also what about the Guardian and the spirits who guarded Andraste's tomb during the Sacred Ashes questline? Spirit only mimic real persons and events in the world, so insight of those eight spirits would and the Guardian would have the most historic accuracy.
Great video like always. Only thing I’d mention is that the differences between the Chant of Light and World of Thedas may very well be that the Chant of Light is not a literal telling of Andraste, but rather a story crafted. IE, the Chant has her betrayed outside of Minrathos. This could be because that makes for a better story then she was captured in Navarra and transported to Minrathos. That might explain some of the differences between the two sources. One being what historians believe to be true in Modern Thedas, and one the story told (one that may have been heavily edited, especially seeing how the Modern Chant of Light is roughly as old as they Chantry, some 200 years after Andraste’s death.)
The part about her being redheaded might also be a reference to her burning since fire is depicted as mainly red with hints of orange and yellow... Just an idea since I am actually running DA dnd and need to fill these things when questioned by my players :D
Andraste the Red head? Crack theory time Leliana is a descendant of Andraste.
Tbh i dont think that's a crack theory, the whole song and visions stuff is definitely not a coincidence
Double crack theory, She is the second coming of Andraste.
Extra crack: something something lyrium, song of titans... Leliana's lyrium ghost if you killed her
There's a whole lotta crack here.
I’m super excited for this series of videos, this was great!! Thank you for forever being our lore MVP ❤️
Just discovered this channel, thanks for covering the lore in such an appealing way on my favorite series!
Keep up the great Work! Loving the solo character lore like solas or Cole! Can't wait for more 😀
I remember reading that in a codex while playing DAO. It still puts tears in my eyes.
I have wanted this video for so long! Thank you!
If you think the lore about Andraste is a mess, study real world religions. This is pretty tame.
I really enjoy your videos!
Well, Andraste being a red head would go well if Leliana is a descendant of Andraste... after all she did hear her voice (as she claims) during dragon age I.
Ah damn I didn't realise you hadn't made an Andraste video yet. Assumed it was the algorythm spewing out an old video until I looked at the upload time 😆
Honestly if the Andraste myths were one solid story with no holes, I'd actually be MORE suspicious of some foul play.
I'm a huge fan of the idea that Andraste was a Leliana-esque lyrium ghost, maybe the same being crafted to enact Thedas's will in each age.
Brillant as always.
Great video! In the forward to WoTv1, Gaider talks about tweaking the knowns of our world (what if Joan of Arc instead of Jesus?) to create the world of Thedas. I think one of the things that can't be understated in the cosmology of DA is that Gaider made the founding personality of the Chantry not just a woman, but a woman who had been married and had children. It's not perfect, there are still bits that don't quite fit, but when you remove the cult of virginity from religion, you remove a lot of the misogyny and general BS from your world, and that's _so refreshing_ compared to a lot of other fantasy worlds. I think having that as a foundational part of the world is one of the reasons DA has such great women characters.
As far as the two different accounts in the same book goes, I don't know that it's incongruous: the Chant of Light is the Bible--which is an oral account of a cult of personality that went through many lives before it was committed to paper and punched up to make it more lyrical and palatable to the masses, and it's important to understand what the people believe about Andraste alongside the more sober historical record.
So I am making a dnd campaign based of dragon age and I was just trying to get chantry lore Soo thank alot you are a life saver.
So I know with this being a lore video and all, it’s hardly the place to talk about crackpot theories. Howeverrr, I do just want to leave a few of my mad ramblings down here because I can’t think of a better opportunity to do so. Also, this theory makes pretty much no sense with the World of Thedas Andraste, and therefore it is likely not very accurate. It is, however, very fun. So, bear with me here...
The “Andraste is an OGB” theory is a pretty prominent one in the community, considering we don’t really know the fate of Dumat’s slayer and she was born in the same year the first Blight ended. From the other OGB we see in the series, we know they have pretty gnarly dreams (Kieran makes a comment to Flemeth when she takes Urthemial’s soul away, something like “No more dreams?” and she gives a nod of affirmation). Is it much of a leap to consider these dreams might be brought on by the Old God’s own will?
To really get what I’m saying, let’s look at Flemeth’s case here. She is one of the few individuals to house multiple souls that we can talk to extensively. Whenever Flemeth talks about Mythal, she talks *about* Mythal. She says, “Mythal clawed her way to me”(paraphrasing), not “I came to bond with this vessel” or some weird thing I’m sure an old elven god would say if they were fully present in a new body. What does this lead me to believe? Even though Flemeth has Mythal’s soul inside of her, Flemeth-soul and Mythal-soul are not one. It is likely their consciousnesses share the mind, and we can assume Mythal talks with Flemeth internally.
Dumat is the dragon of secrets. We can assume, from this description, that he is deceptive or elusive. So, if Andraste is Dumat’s OGB, he wouldn’t come out and say “yo what good it’s your boy Dumat here”, he would likely be a little more cryptic. Perhaps he would even assume a new guise...
Yes, what I’m proposing is that Dumat lived within Andraste, and deceived her into thinking he was something called the Maker. Not one single document or historical text in Thedas mentions the Maker before Andraste. If this theory is true, it means that Dumat built up an entirely new religion via Andraste and caused even more separation in the belief systems of Thedas. As to whether Dumat is still around, I’d be willing to consider he is. This entire theory would be redundant if he wasn’t, after all. Surely if this is true, it would be some part of a larger plan. As to how Dumat would still be around, I don’t have many ideas. We know Flemeth has surpassed death before, and people like Corypheus can corrupt a new body every time the old one perishes. Perhaps Dumat used a mixture of these methods, perhaps he did something else. Either way, Dumat is still out there, planning... something.
Or he’s not. Either way, thank you for your time :3
There is a very explicit tale of what happened to the Warden that killed Dumat. From Codex entry: Archdemon:
"When a Warden's hand struck a fatal blow against Dumat, the Old God's spirit was drawn not to a darkspawn but to the man who had slain him. In that moment, the souls of both the Warden and the archdemon were utterly destroyed. And the dragon rose no more. The Blight was over."
@@YoshtTheAwesome shiiiieeeet
Personally I'd even go further and subscribe to the theory that the old gods are all pieces of Mythal. So in that case, yes, "Dumat" is very much around, found Flemeth as a host and we met "him" for the first time in front of a little hut in the Korcari wilds...
Also just fyi, he's the god of silence not secrets
@@Felsenkeks I advise you to read the Canticle of Silence. "And so the First Acolyte spoke to the High Priest
And said: "We are the masters of secrets"". Or Altar of Dumat: "Blessed are you, Dumat, Silent and strong, Secret and wise". Or Note: The Temple of Dumat: "For His Silence conquers all
And His Secrets are shared only with the worthy".
Also he's the god of silence AND secrets.
@@maxiumg4542 you had the words silent and silence in that quote for a reason. Not saying he doesnt have any secrets but he is the *god of* silence
Veilguard better give us some damn Andraste lore.
That's religion for you.
A God was thirsty for her, a married woman btw.
She said 'You want this? Help with my war campaigns'.
They said OK, got her in the end, and now don't give anymore damn than before. Why should they?
All bow to Maker...?
5:00 sounds like the dreamers, maybe she was the first human dreamer? or at least the first person to interpret what she saw into a religion
What if Andraste was the women that Mythal latch herself onto!? They both seek vengeance. 😱😱😱
If we follow the theory that Maferath knew what was coming and was trying to preserve her legacy, it isn't that far of a stretch to think that maybe Andraste knew as well and was in on the plan? Not only would it make sense, but it kind of makes an interesting parallel to what we've seen a lot of characters in the series do, martyr themselves for their cause.
What if Andraste was basically like Anders in a sense that she was simply a mage possessed by an ultra powerful spirit of faith or something.
I also like Solas’ comments about the Maker. He doesn’t just completely dismiss it and likes the idea of a god who doesn’t need to prove himself to his followers.
Tbh I always though she was wearing a veil and not that she was blonde xD And thank you for this informative Video! I truly look forward to know more and hope that we can dive deeper into the ancient history in the next DA game.
Also: I hope I didn't overlooked it, but could we maybe get a spotlight for Fenris and the Iron Bull? I just love these two and would like to know more about them...I mean, only if you see potential :)
Also: So I have now the Artbook of DA:I and in the Art of the glass windows of the churches Andraste is either shown with red hair or brownish-red hair (or a veil). I hope it helps :)
Love the video, thank you for trying to make out consistent lore on Andraste!
Only one thing bothering me, that's not how you pronounce Jader and Shartan. It's Orlesian so it's sounde like "ja-dáre" and "share-ten".
You can hear it in a few places in DA2 and DAI and surprisingly in The Masked Empire. Whoever gave direction on that audiobook did really well
I never did beat origins back in the day. I started a new campaign a few weeks ago. About to start the landsmeet!
Just watching this video made me convert to the Chantry
the accident with her half sister could be a darkspawn attack?, it makes sense since the blight ended a few years earlier so darkspawn would still linger on the surface, also the symptoms she had after the incident match with the blight sickness
Interesting video
ah Shartan...a suspiciously familiar elf.... hmmmmm 🤔
In the old god baby theory, I almost never see her father's alchemy advisor come up who supposedly was mother of Halliserre. This has all the hallmarks of that advisor being someone doing the same work as Flemeth.
So my approach is Halliserre was an OGB and what happened in the clearing that night was the alchemy advisor trying to claim the soul, but it was interrupted and ultimately Andraste got it.
It could be her father was a warden and part of a dark ritual proper or he raised Halliserre for a reason we have yet to obtain context of. It just seems to align all the details we get from the World of Thedas.
BioWare should make a game where we play the role of Andraste. I think that would be totally awesome and lore expanding.
Or perhaps make a game where we are a high ranking member of Tevinter and experienced the legendary events of the “First Exalted March” that way.
The possibility for more lore expansion of Dragons Age besides four console system games is endless.
we could play as Andraste *or* Shartan
@@happythoughts4553
I love that idea.
Twenty dollars says she was actually a mage. I’m fuckin’ calling it now. Furthermore, that bit about her crying after coming down from Mt Sundermount makes me think that she saw what would happen in Kirkwall during the dragon age, and wept at the loss of life.
Or, what if she met Flemeth or Mythal on Sundermount? Remember what's up there after all, that ritual area and an Elvhan graveyard.
So about the Red Hair thing, This was probably said at some point somewhere, But what if Leliana was the second coming of Andraste? What if her dream and the rose blooming is a hint that she is starting to wake up and realize this fact? Maybe time is almost up and judgement day is coming. Maybe the Maker put a time limit in place?
Because Leliana finds a rose after her vision, I considered that Roses are symbolic of Mary, the Mother of God and also has been used as a symbol for Jesus. There may be a connection?
"But what if you kill off Leliana and she becomes the Lyrium Ghost?" This is likely what you are thinking. But, why does it have to be a "Lyrium Ghost"? Why could it not be a spirit of Hope or Faith that used the lyrium to get enough power to become Leliana? You know, in the same way Spirit Cole becomes real?
Also, this would mean that the Warden might potentially be capable of doing the most evil thing imaginable.
Could Andraste have been a elf and The Maker be Solas ?
Wouldn’t surprise me
I think if you killed Leliana in the temple of sacred ashes, the spirit of Andraste transferred over to her from the slain dragon, and Andraste got reincarnated as 'Leliana', another devout ginger, and that is who you meet in Inquisition...if you killed the original.
I like to believe that Leliana just straight up *is* Andraste. I know it's a crack-theory, but until a game comes out to specifically disprove me it's my favorite haha.
I honestly really like that there's no definitive truth around Andraste, I always really like when games have an unreliable narrator it makes things more realistic in my opinion.
13:25 hmmm. perhaps both are true, caught and brought to minrathos, whith ther army giveing chase, the carved a path to there leader and began to sack the city proper and she was caught again, and brought in properly.
But… but… but, I want spoilers! 😢😭
Same here. I do have a couple of theories regarding to her. The fact that she and flemeth are connected because of mythal. The Chantry was nothing more than an elaborate lie that was based around mythal ironically enough
Honestly, the only spoiler is that the urn of sacred ashes was found and does heal people. It’s really not that exciting and better fits into another ‘theories on Andraste’ video I plan on doing!
Praise be Andraste, holy beacon and light for all! The Maker, praise above all, will see to the end of the degenerate and undutiful! Church reunification, no more strife for the children's nation!
The great thing about this is it isn't lore breaking that there are all these inconsistencies, it is in fact in lore that there are multiple versions of this story, so hey maybe one sect of the church does believe she was burned on a cross, or that she was a nobody slave, maybe it's all still in heated debate and the only reason the warden only saw this version of his story us he happened to only speak to those that believed that story, while the inquisitor and the hawk spoke with others.
This last bit with Andraste being a red head made me think that Leliana with all her oddities might be Andraste
Random question but we’ve met Shartan haven’t we, in the Temple of Sacred Ashes when you are answering the riddles. I know this may not be actual Shartan but seeing as I guess a spirit who appears as him is in the temple with the other people in Andraste’s life doesn’t that prove his existence?
Another thing about the Chant of Light contradicting itself. I’ll if the developers meant this but the Bible heavily contradicts itself all the time so it could be an allegory as the Chantry is influenced by Christianity
How interesting it would be if Liliana turns out to be andraste and solace turns out to be the maker
As a historian, I must say that the contradictory texts only make Thedas seem more real.
She's definitely a red-head. The murals in Orlais depict her as such. As for the Elf holding a key in that same room... I have no clue.
I wager mother Gisselle has her own theory about the origins of Andraste we might actually get to know the actual story since DA4 is most probably set in Tevinter so and since we are talking about fighting the the dread wolf Solas the Evanuris throw another time travel to the ancient times known the true origins of the blight so that you can tackle the two awoken final old gods Razikale and Lusacan you know because Solas what better distraction for the inquisition and all of Thedas to handle, as the dread wolf tears down the Veil and deals with the Elven Gods this game had better not be not less than 200GB of awesomeness how else would Bioware cram all that epic conflict.
No more a mess than our own worlds religions.
Me, knowing nothing about what you're talking about: _watches the entire video_ "Hmm hmm yes of course"
I don't know why I thought of this and I don't know how fimilar you are with d&d, but whenever you do the intro and outro just imagine you being a knowledge based warlock patron
So tewinter is willing to acknowledge that Andraste was a powerful mage but can't imagine that a powerful mage at a early age was just hearing the voice of some random spirit of Valor that claims to be the creator of all? I get that circle education wasn't a thing but with all the blood magic rituals going around surely most mages knew about spirits and demons and the "prophetic" visions they give like at this point in the dragon age lore whenever someone hears the voice of some God I assume it's just a random spirit in the fade trolling humans
My sister watching this with me: What if "the Maker" was actually just Elgar'nan screwing Andraste along like a puppet this whole time from the Fade which accidentally founded "the Maker and so-called prophet bride" religion???
Me, a die-hard DA player & fan: ?!?!? (◯Δ◯∥) .......ಠ_ಠ how dare you? Mind if I use that idea in my fic?
Sister: Go for it XD
The Maker was Dirthamen.
wooohooo
It would be so much cooler if this eventually wasn't revealed to be related to the old elven gods. Some more diversity and mystery is just good.
I'm sorry for my OOT but I'm really curious..
I found an interesting fact that when you playing DAI as elf and non-elf at the crossroads in trespasser DLC you can see a different landscape.. the elf would say it beautiful but the non-elf would say it just gray or something like that. Why would it be like that?
I think it's because the crossroads were created for/by elves as a means of fast travel. It makes strategic sense for them to be more hospitable to elves than other races, to give them a homefield advantage in case an enemy tries to invade. In one of the books, elves were able to move through the crossroads way faster than humans as well, like the space itself favored them. The different landscapes are probably meant to be an in-game reflection of that.
Lessssssgooooooo
A baby born within a year of an old gods death. Cool. . . Where else have we seen that in DA?
So... Andraste was joan of arc!
the Maker is Solas in Andreaste's story; my best guess after having played Inquisition and re-reading all the lore again.
Because of what Solas created... he would technically be "The Maker"... but I do not want Solas to be "The Maker" because eww.
@@EerieNoodles #SolasDidNothingWrong #IStandWithSolas
I find it funny how... egocentrical her origin story is? "I was so good at singing that God fell in love with me, y'all other singers ain't shit."
They have conflicting stories because it shows how the belief of a deity can change over time. And yes, this was intentional.
No differently than the church in the real world, the Chantry changed the views of Andraste as a means of control.
Power, influence, and instilling fear & order into the masses. What starts out as a simple faith, eventually gets turned into a tool.
The parallels of religious politics in real life are quite identical, and that's what makes the lore that much more interesting.
Imagine just trying to lead your people and then your girl gets snatched by God and she's like "let's wage war because the creator of the world said so."
And you're like "Can't argue with that logic."
I sent elements of Muhammad the prophet and Saint Joan of Arc
Actually in a lot of DAO voice over notes that are found in the game files, the writers called her a mix of Jesus, Joan, and Muhammad! So spot on!
Just a random thought.
Is solas the maker? Andraste is mythral? sorry for any misspellings.
Their stories sound very similarly.
Would make sense why solas is reluctant to be with you as an elf if hes already married..... I'm probably wrong just kept thinking about the lore
Andraste in my opinion sound eerily like flemeth, like, ALOT. Is it possible that the descendents of Andraste herself could be our player characters, and flemeth, being mithal, could recognise these wayward bits of flotsam in the wind as one of her "children". This is based on the story morrigan tells the Warden, at camp. Kormac the conqueror.
I wonder if Leilana is Andraste or a possible descendent.
If she was a redhead Iron Bull would convert to Andrastianism
i probs have missed it but the claim that the maker fell in love due to her singing seems strange as after this point her life she is never mentioned to sing or people talk about her singing???
I’m a bit confused as to how the Orlesian Chantry views Andraste. In orthodox lore, she was a mortal woman called by the Maker. After her betrayal, she is called to his side as his Bride. Based on how the Chantry clergy pray to her and bless people in her name, she is seen to have been divinized and been made a deity. I’ve been trying to come up with a real world example since for the Orlesian Chantry, she is given a status far above Muhammad (who Muslims would not pray to) or the Virgin Mary (which many Christians pray to as the preeminent saint but would not quite call divine). My best approximation is that Andraste is like Jesus BUT for Arian Christians. Nicene Christianity decided Jesus was divine which means he was always a deity. Arian Christians said that Jesus was created by God but was exalted to the point that he could be prayed to.
If Hessarian, the Archon, was indeed moved by her then why didn't he just put out the fire? You mean to tell me that (following the lore) the most powerful mage (at the time) in the most magically powerful nation couldn't extinguish the flame and heal her wounds? LOL.
Andraste is a blend of the Prophet Muhammad and Saint Joan of Arc. And a dash of Celtic barbarians.
Andraste is a direct rip-off of Slave Queen Alessia, a slave turned empress blessed with dragonblood by Akatosh and forged a pact with sealing the gates of Oblivion by lighting the Dragonfires. It was she who prayed to the Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time, for protection and victory against the wicked, Daedra Worshipping Ayleids. Pelinal Whitestrake served as a means of assistance to her. Even though she succeeded in freeing the Nedic slaves and founding the First Empire of Men, she passed away through unnatural causes. As a result of her efforts, the Empire she founded lasted for thousands of years in the form of Reman Empire, and Septim Empire, respectively.
In contrast to Saint Alesh, Andraste claimed to have received a vision from The Maker, which inspired her to destroy the Tevinter Imperium following her capture as a slave. She was married and her husband was a traitorous snake who couldn’t bear to see his wife rising to the occasion. As a result, he betrayed her to their mortal enemy, Archon Hessarian, an asshole at heart. In the end, Andraste's horrendous death by burning at the stake halted her revolt against the Tevinter Imperium, marking her conquest as a failure. The majority of her followers believe in The Maker, even if they cannot reconcile the ideas that the Maker abandoned the men to their rotting fate, and that He will not return to them until they become righteous.
Akatosh, the Father of Dragons, The Golden Divine, would never abandon his worshippers to their fate. He emerged in the blood of Martin Septim, the Last Septim Dragonborn, as The Golden Avatar and threw Mehrunes Dagon back into The Oblivion in the most difficult times in the history of men. Despite such a turbulent crisis, he never left the Dragon Empire that honored and devoted to him for all those years. The Dragon God cared for the men, he loved the men, and he watched over them as a father would do for his children.
The Maker, or some tainted spirit of Fade whispering in the corrupted priests' ears as the Maker induced men to believe that he would return only if they became righteous. Those fabled heroes who rose in the midst of dire need and troubled times only emerged because someone had to take the initiative and save Thedas, not because the Maker sent a savior.
Andraste, in her fractured mind, fabricated the Maker into a reality. She is widely ridiculed by her followers even to this day with such phrases such as ‘Andraste's dimpled buttcheeks’ or ‘Andraste's tits.’ Except for the idiotic chantry sisters and grand clerics, she commands no respect from anyone.
The high dragon that the Disciples of Andraste cult worshipped WAS Andraste. And if you took Kolgrim's offer...wouldn't that mean her soul finally 'grafted' into the dragon, technically bringing her back to life...but as a dragon?
I really hope the theory that she’s a mage is false. Does every important character in the setting have to have magic?