11 year old video but it has been extremely useful for me in 2020 and the first video that showed me how to descend. There are countless videos about ascending techniques, but I suppose those folk assume descending is common sense. It wasn't for me as I had been thinking climbers actually descend using their hitches or ascending devices. I also like that in the video you have repurposed jumar style hand ascenders and have exploited wallet friendly webbing. Webbing is so cheap it is practically free but often stronger than the best ropes so it's strange it's not used more often!
Those are CMI Ultracenders. Definitely our favorite for courses. Two big attachment holes, durable, not too harsh on the rope, two stroke motion makes it hard to accidentally take the ascender off the rope. Excellent customer service, also.
@palindromepk86 You can certainly tie in short if you want a back up for the two ascenders. As for the gri gri method, sure, you can ascend that way or any of at least 20 other methods. The advantage of the gri gri systm is a trivial transition to rappel. The disadvantage is that to pull in slack, even redirected off the top ascender, you end up picking up the trailing rope. Gets tiring on a long ascent. Also a closer connection to the rope at your waist makes standing on a limb harder.
@emlarge97 You can put your autoblock on the leg loop. Just make sure it is short enough not to run into your belay device. The key here is that the autoblock doesn't hold your weight. It merely acts in place of your hand on the brake strand of the rope. The tension on your leg loop will be about equivalent to hand pressure.
@NorthWashOutfitters If I follow you correctly we rejected that method specifically because students have difficulty controlling the rappel when they are removing the last ascender. The lower ascender hitting the belay device is a very reliable backup in this situation. If the last ascender removed is above the belay device and the student bobbles the rappel then off they go.
I really like your videos, thanks a lot cornell tree climbing, but be carefull the autoblock has to be at least two inches below the descender just as the way she did it the first time. Thanks, I have learned a lot from your videos good job!
@pauljrsdad Autolockers are certainly nice. Our systems do away with carabiners in many places where arborists use them regularly, as in the connection to the ascenders. The two places where we still use them, in the ground anchor and in rappelling, don't necessarily need autolockers for safety. We double the anchor carabiners anyway as a matter of redundancy, and it is easy to monitor the status of a screw lock while rappelling.
@jorndis That's a good point, and I know a number of folks with that perspective. I think the short answer is that you can accomplish all these things with prussiks, munter, Blake's or whichever of the zillions of reversible hitches you prefer. We have a guy on the staff who can climb with prussiks as fast as I can with ascenders. On the other hand, there are a lot of folks around who can't manage those systems well, and prefer the accessibility of handled ascenders.
@NorthWashOutfitters The one additional thing we sometimes do is to add a figure eight on a bight below all the action. However, we always maintain two connections to the rope, and removing the lower ascender last means that if we lose control of the rappel, the ascender jams in the rappel device. You can find this same transition in rope rescue books. Try Fasulo. These days we use gri gri's for the change over which makes things considerably easier. Any specific recommendation?
@Zember007 Interesting notion! Well, no. I can assure you that it is not in any way illegal for a recreational tree climber to rappel with an ATC. This is not to say that it is the only or best way, but it is certainly serviceable.
Revisiting these videos after a couple of years. This is basically textbook rock climbing techniques in a tree. Arborists don't operate in this fashion. Having to switch out gear for ascent and descent is a luxury that production work doesn't afford. There are a number of options that allow ascent and descent in a static system without reconfiguration. There are various mechanical devices like the uniscender. You can use a rope wrench and still use a friction hitch. Many arborists prefer to switch out for a classic dynamic double rope system after ascending and reaching their tie in point. If you're interested in production tree work, this will not cut it. Yes I realize the pun.
True enough. We should probably do a few more videos of other techniques with some more modern gear. I believe there is one in this series using the unicender. For recreational climbers (this video was aimed at recreational and research climbers) who do not have the "time = money" constraint, this is still legit. And in some circumstances, like super giant trees, these and related SRT modes are still the way to go. We also use this kind of climbing in conifers when there is no possibility of isolating a branch, and when hitches get really hard to deal with on a sap covered rope.
@pauljrsdad I'm sorry but I just can't stand using auto lockers with the detent ball... the twisting gates with no detent are fine. Just hate trying to manipulate the detent while climbing
Hi Cornell, Now I have it, the Prusik loop is the cord and the Autoblock is the knot (rather than the function). Can you please advise what rope you are using for your static line and for your Prusik loop? Also, I get that for a club you are budget conscious in selection of your gear, but if you only had to purchase one item for your personal kit, what devices would you consider as alternatives to the ATC device shown for rappelling solo? Thanks for the excellent videos, I have not found any online that explain the basics more clearly. Gus
Hi Gus, We usually use New England Fly for our standard climbing classes. The Prusik cord is 5 or 6 mil nylon utility cord. I'm not sure of the supplier offhand, but most reputable rope companies supply something like that. These days we almost always use the Petzl GriGri for descending. While not completely idiot proof, it is nice to have the autolocking feature. If you have piles of money you might also consider a Petzl ID. Climb safe!
I'm glad to have started recreational climbing in the times, when you can just switch from a chest ascender to a self-braking descender. Not getting the capital punishment for tying a prusik wrong 20m in the air feels sort of comfortable :)
Interesting Video, but I still dont see the advantages to a technologically complicated system over what can be done with the minimal prussiks and hitches? can any one clarify this for me please?
Generally, you cannot reach the first branch. Even if you could, you can't necessarily reach the second. Even if you could reach all the branches it is a lot safer to be tied to something when you are up that high!
A locking carabiner isn't really necessary here. It is common practice to use a non locking carabiner. There certainly wouldn't be any problem using a locking one either. These days we no longer use tube style descent devices. We have switched over to the grigri or ID for most purposes.
@@CornellTreeClimbing thank you for replying! I was concerned there was a safety risk to using a locking one that I wasn't understanding. This would work on a figure 8 setup too from what I can tell. I'm looking for a low weight backup in case something happens to my mechanical device.
@@the.mr.beacher A tube style device is a very solid backup and very lightweight. The only tricky thing with the figure 8 is that it requires a bit more space to install, just because it is a longer device. One could also use a munter hitch on a locking carabiner to descend, though the change over is awkward.
I think most people refer to that knot as an autoblock knot. In the Machard the end of the cord goes thru its own loop. In the autoblock, it doesn't. The autoblock is sometimes called a French Prusik or Manchard Tresse.
i was not aware that leg loops were life safe hard points. secondly why not ascend using a grigri and an ascender, you wouldn't have such a terrifying transition and you can back up your grigri with a with a prussick if you need, (to hard point.)
If you are an Arborist then you are obligated to use the autolocking version, but there were probably 100,000 people who in some rope context, used screw gate carabiner to rappel today...without incident. In a recreational setting, the thing that matters is your ability to monitor the state of your locking carabiner. If you are descending cleanly down a rope and doing nothing else, then a screw gate carabiner is perfectly fine. We also use the Blake's Hitch system, but there are situations were that is not possible - for example in the case of trees with seriously down-sloping branches.
As a tower climbing instructor, it really concerns me that you have no secondary means of fall protection. I understand this is recreational activity, but.......
How would you switch to abseil? I would be solo climbing with a Micro traxxion above and a second below as a back up device (on a second line). If a climb went wrong and i am weighting the above device. how would you switch to abseil?
Yes, Sarah is very pretty, but what's more is that she is also really smart (finishing her PhD) and funny and athletic, and masterful with children. But, yes, she is married. And her husband is 7 feet tall with arms like pythons.
11 year old video but it has been extremely useful for me in 2020 and the first video that showed me how to descend. There are countless videos about ascending techniques, but I suppose those folk assume descending is common sense. It wasn't for me as I had been thinking climbers actually descend using their hitches or ascending devices.
I also like that in the video you have repurposed jumar style hand ascenders and have exploited wallet friendly webbing.
Webbing is so cheap it is practically free but often stronger than the best ropes so it's strange it's not used more often!
Those are CMI Ultracenders. Definitely our favorite for courses. Two big attachment holes, durable, not too harsh on the rope, two stroke motion makes it hard to accidentally take the ascender off the rope. Excellent customer service, also.
@palindromepk86 You can certainly tie in short if you want a back up for the two ascenders. As for the gri gri method, sure, you can ascend that way or any of at least 20 other methods. The advantage of the gri gri systm is a trivial transition to rappel. The disadvantage is that to pull in slack, even redirected off the top ascender, you end up picking up the trailing rope. Gets tiring on a long ascent. Also a closer connection to the rope at your waist makes standing on a limb harder.
@emlarge97 You can put your autoblock on the leg loop. Just make sure it is short enough not to run into your belay device. The key here is that the autoblock doesn't hold your weight. It merely acts in place of your hand on the brake strand of the rope. The tension on your leg loop will be about equivalent to hand pressure.
@NorthWashOutfitters If I follow you correctly we rejected that method specifically because students have difficulty controlling the rappel when they are removing the last ascender. The lower ascender hitting the belay device is a very reliable backup in this situation. If the last ascender removed is above the belay device and the student bobbles the rappel then off they go.
Great stuff but I would suggest using auto-lock biners only.
I really like your videos, thanks a lot cornell tree climbing, but be carefull the autoblock has to be at least two inches below the descender just as the way she did it the first time. Thanks, I have learned a lot from your videos good job!
Thanks! Indeed, now auto blocks are usually attached to the belay loop and the rappel device extended with a sling.
Ty very informative
@pauljrsdad Autolockers are certainly nice. Our systems do away with carabiners in many places where arborists use them regularly, as in the connection to the ascenders. The two places where we still use them, in the ground anchor and in rappelling, don't necessarily need autolockers for safety. We double the anchor carabiners anyway as a matter of redundancy, and it is easy to monitor the status of a screw lock while rappelling.
@jorndis That's a good point, and I know a number of folks with that perspective. I think the short answer is that you can accomplish all these things with prussiks, munter, Blake's or whichever of the zillions of reversible hitches you prefer. We have a guy on the staff who can climb with prussiks as fast as I can with ascenders. On the other hand, there are a lot of folks around who can't manage those systems well, and prefer the accessibility of handled ascenders.
@NorthWashOutfitters The one additional thing we sometimes do is to add a figure eight on a bight below all the action. However, we always maintain two connections to the rope, and removing the lower ascender last means that if we lose control of the rappel, the ascender jams in the rappel device. You can find this same transition in rope rescue books. Try Fasulo. These days we use gri gri's for the change over which makes things considerably easier. Any specific recommendation?
@Zember007 Interesting notion! Well, no. I can assure you that it is not in any way illegal for a recreational tree climber to rappel with an ATC. This is not to say that it is the only or best way, but it is certainly serviceable.
Revisiting these videos after a couple of years. This is basically textbook rock climbing techniques in a tree. Arborists don't operate in this fashion. Having to switch out gear for ascent and descent is a luxury that production work doesn't afford. There are a number of options that allow ascent and descent in a static system without reconfiguration. There are various mechanical devices like the uniscender. You can use a rope wrench and still use a friction hitch. Many arborists prefer to switch out for a classic dynamic double rope system after ascending and reaching their tie in point. If you're interested in production tree work, this will not cut it. Yes I realize the pun.
True enough. We should probably do a few more videos of other techniques with some more modern gear. I believe there is one in this series using the unicender. For recreational climbers (this video was aimed at recreational and research climbers) who do not have the "time = money" constraint, this is still legit. And in some circumstances, like super giant trees, these and related SRT modes are still the way to go. We also use this kind of climbing in conifers when there is no possibility of isolating a branch, and when hitches get really hard to deal with on a sap covered rope.
@@markholton8555
I see your point. Recreationally, totally legit.
@ZK818 I don't like my voice much either, but it's the one God gave me. Not much I can do about it.
@pauljrsdad I'm sorry but I just can't stand using auto lockers with the detent ball... the twisting gates with no detent are fine. Just hate trying to manipulate the detent while climbing
Hi Cornell,
Now I have it, the Prusik loop is the cord and the Autoblock is the knot (rather than the function).
Can you please advise what rope you are using for your static line and for your Prusik loop?
Also, I get that for a club you are budget conscious in selection of your gear, but if you only had to purchase one item for your personal kit, what devices would you consider as alternatives to the ATC device shown for rappelling solo?
Thanks for the excellent videos, I have not found any online that explain the basics more clearly.
Gus
Hi Gus,
We usually use New England Fly for our standard climbing classes. The Prusik cord is 5 or 6 mil nylon utility cord. I'm not sure of the supplier offhand, but most reputable rope companies supply something like that. These days we almost always use the Petzl GriGri for descending. While not completely idiot proof, it is nice to have the autolocking feature. If you have piles of money you might also consider a Petzl ID. Climb safe!
I'm glad to have started recreational climbing in the times, when you can just switch from a chest ascender to a self-braking descender. Not getting the capital punishment for tying a prusik wrong 20m in the air feels sort of comfortable :)
Thanks
at 1:36 what are those ascenders and about how much are they
Interesting Video, but I still dont see the advantages to a technologically complicated system over what can be done with the minimal prussiks and hitches? can any one clarify this for me please?
Friction and rope life. Also convenience but more expensive.
@kidesqu I'm sorry you don't like my voice but what am I supposed to do?
Generally, you cannot reach the first branch. Even if you could, you can't necessarily reach the second. Even if you could reach all the branches it is a lot safer to be tied to something when you are up that high!
Why a "non-locking carabiner" for the autoblock?
A locking carabiner isn't really necessary here. It is common practice to use a non locking carabiner. There certainly wouldn't be any problem using a locking one either. These days we no longer use tube style descent devices. We have switched over to the grigri or ID for most purposes.
@@CornellTreeClimbing thank you for replying! I was concerned there was a safety risk to using a locking one that I wasn't understanding.
This would work on a figure 8 setup too from what I can tell. I'm looking for a low weight backup in case something happens to my mechanical device.
@@the.mr.beacher A tube style device is a very solid backup and very lightweight. The only tricky thing with the figure 8 is that it requires a bit more space to install, just because it is a longer device. One could also use a munter hitch on a locking carabiner to descend, though the change over is awkward.
Why get stuck on the "sound" of the voice? Its not like you cant mute the volume if you dont "like" it.
Isn't that knot called Machard? the prusik is different... at 1:05
I think most people refer to that knot as an autoblock knot. In the Machard the end of the cord goes thru its own loop. In the autoblock, it doesn't. The autoblock is sometimes called a French Prusik or Manchard Tresse.
i was not aware that leg loops were life safe hard points. secondly why not ascend using a grigri and an ascender, you wouldn't have such a terrifying transition and you can back up your grigri with a with a prussick if you need, (to hard point.)
I will never climb on a screw gate carabiner. And didn't like way of climbing. I trust my Blake hitch with split tail system
If you are an Arborist then you are obligated to use the autolocking version, but there were probably 100,000 people who in some rope context, used screw gate carabiner to rappel today...without incident. In a recreational setting, the thing that matters is your ability to monitor the state of your locking carabiner. If you are descending cleanly down a rope and doing nothing else, then a screw gate carabiner is perfectly fine. We also use the Blake's Hitch system, but there are situations were that is not possible - for example in the case of trees with seriously down-sloping branches.
menos susurro... hablar más firme, suena a ronroneo. Sin ofender !, Excelentes todos los videos !!. Saludos desde Argentina.
qué voz... por favor... un minuto más y tiro la pc. Buen video.
As a tower climbing instructor, it really concerns me that you have no secondary means of fall protection. I understand this is recreational activity, but.......
How would you switch to abseil?
I would be solo climbing with a Micro traxxion above and a second below as a back up device (on a second line). If a climb went wrong and i am weighting the above device. how would you switch to abseil?
objectionable pursik
I only wish the narrator talked more softly. Such a shame I can still only just make out what is being said.
I want find me an arborist chick 😎
Good luck! haha
CornellTreeClimbing Is Sarah single 😍?
Yes, Sarah is very pretty, but what's more is that she is also really smart (finishing her PhD) and funny and athletic, and masterful with children. But, yes, she is married. And her husband is 7 feet tall with arms like pythons.
CornellTreeClimbing Oh okay! Thank you!