Honestly. Beartooth is expensive the most important part that did not talk enough about is that Gateway is over $2000 which you have to have to use an ATAK server. Even if you build your own. Bear tooth does voice and it’s pretty darn good. And none of the others in civilian price ranges do voice. It’s not bad at all. The pictures taken anywhere between 2 to 3 minutes to send but they’re not bad. If Beartooth didn’t charge so much money for a gateway, it would be more interesting even if they allowed you to use a radio to connect to your own server. But the fact that the gateway is so much money, it’s really hard to justify. I will say the updates and messages are near real time which is very impressive. But I always come back to the Gateway price. The CEO of Beartooth will respond to you himself and is actively engaged with the customers.
Yeah, the Gateway is pretty steep for what you get. I think you could replicate the functionality with your own TAK server and a wifi router to bridge to a phone with a regular Beartooth node, but we haven't tried that yet. But yeah, actually real-time traffic is important. And having an accessible team to talk to is huge.
@@T.REXLabs the value in the Gateway is in the software. there is some pretty heavy duty networking code to handle all the security aspects plus bridging an IP network to a non IP network. Its arguably pretty low priced versus the networking capability the end user is getting.
I am an integrator for Silvus mesh radios. Good products. Primary clients are LE. I am glad to see a review of more "civilian friendly" mesh radios. Thanks TREX LABS.
Not sure what the difference is between the Silvus for civs and Silvus for military is but the Silvus used by the military has a decent range. Typically about 2-5km depending antenna placements, interference, etc.
@@Sethiol73 Yeah that is what we typically see as well concerning ranges. We "soft" mounted one to a Hughes MD 550 helicopter once for testing and reached significantly further than typical ground deployment. I believe the only difference between civ and mil versions, is the bands allowed to transmit on.
Awesome vid. Easily digestible for a complex subject. Thanks for putting free content out for us not so wealthy folks who want to prep. Remember Proverbs 27:17.
Everything is perfect with Beartooth other than improvements need to be made with ruggedization, built-in ptt button or in house ptt accessories, and PRICE. User friendliness is what I like to see and absolutely deserve praise for, just most people can not swallow the price tag, if you guys lower the price, and more people are going to use them and buy them, it would be a better advertisement than anything. But at the end, it's just my opinion.
@@Vinn_K thank you for your feedback, we are working as hard as we can to drive price down, use the TREX code to save! lots of third party PTT devices on the market.
@@Vinn_Kprice is a matter of market forces and business sustainability… if/once these get more popularly adopted - only then can the price possibly come down.
@@bthemedia Then we are at a loop, because the price is high for what it is, not many will buy it, and because of no one buy it the price stays high. At the very least I can see it being utilized at hard core airsoft events, and most people there can't just throw 750 at it, me personally would have no problems paying 500 which is already high for a lot of people. Let's put the cost of the parts at 200, 300 for the software and future support of said software and future development is in my opinion, quite fair.
I've had a set of BTR MK2s for a few months now and love them. They're literally plug and play and just work compared to my team metastatic boards. Learning more about Pi devices to make my own ATAK server currently (Zero Tier works great, but I wanna keep learning). Beartooth also just recently started their own TAK server which works great as well...
Great comparison in one video. What a wide range of use cases. I like that this space is very well segmented and use cases / customer is fairly well defined.
The Meshtastic mesh where i live is phenomenal. Consistently getting almost 80 miles using only 2 or 3 hops. Its all about infrastructure. For example we have a few nodes on peaks that look down on the valley that allow for crazy range. I get for tactical use infrastructure usually needs to be man portable but i bet you could find a way to make a meshtastic range extender man portable.
I have a little EDC heltac v3. Mostly for hiking and communication with the wify. 20 bucks plus 5 euro battery and a free thingeverse case printed by a friend. As a network and security engineer this technology is very intriguing.
Nice comparison video. We just did a great interview over on our channel about getting the infrastructure set up for Meshtastic which would help support ATAK, or whatever use case, across a town or city. The range claims here definitely don't seem right though. Current record for meshtastic is 300km. We're regularly getting 20+
Yeah, we think this is what Meshtastic is great at; big static meshes for wider community use. Messages would not be instantaneous, but they don't need to be for most applications.
Meshtastic range is mostly dependent on typography. The Lora radios pretty much need line of sight, so if you live in Kansas, your range can be very impressive. Big cities or mountainous regions require a lot more nodes to ensure coverage.
@@BrewMeister27 Big cities have lots of nodes though. Good luck building a mesh in nothingville, unless you are going to fund it yourself and build it yourself.
My power company has been installing Meshtastic transceivers all over the countryside for their power meter network. Aliexpress sells the LoRa32 V2.1_1.6 Version 915Mhz ESP32 LoRa OLED 0.96 Inch SD Card Bluetooth WIFI Wireless Module ESP-32 SMA for about 23 bucks. Tiny display but it does work and it has an antenna.
Great technical comms and market survey comparison as always Isaac, much appreciated! Understanding the pros/cons of each platform on the price/performance spectrum is really helpful for making informed buying decisions… and C2 or Move/Shoot/Communicate - the secure comms is perhaps the most important of mission effectiveness - especially when it’s communicating valuable and timeline information/intel.
Excellent video on this stuff. I'm a radio guy myself (ham radio operator), and I admit I know very little about the mesh radios out there besides the basics. Thinking about buying some of the meshtastic stuff up to tinker with and develop some skills off them. Thanks!
Do it. It's a lot of fun. I do prefer the Rak 19007's when it comes to boards. But an inexpensive 2 pack of Heltec V3s with 3dbi antennas on Amazon are like ~$53 and a great start to get your feet when. But battery life sucks. So I prefer a Rak 19007 without screen and 1100mah gets you 4+ days of battery life.
Meshtastic is the way to go for most, you can build a 10 unit network inc repeater units for the price of a single Beartooth unit. The most important thing to understand is the local topography and hill shade so you can optimally locate ~ 3 repeaters. By doing this I've had coverage ~ 40km by 40km with longest node to node direct ~ 16km. The gotenna pro deployment pack is very effective and can be used to map local area traffic and thus determine best frequencies/wavelengths to operate on - its a very good system. Last and most obviously, height of antenna agl is often far more important than power of transmitter.
Done. Szenario Desaster: - cheap - easy - Portable - good performance - with led flashlight it’s a beacon But - danger to aircrafts Szenario Tactical - only for knowen places like camps
I’ve used all three of these pretty extensively and agree with your assessment. The Beartooth are typically my recommendation but the performance of the GoTenna is difficult to argue with. One thing that absolutely drives me up a wall about the GoTenna units is the connector though. It’s 2024 and why it isn’t USB-C is in my opinion, unacceptable.
I feel that meshtastic is the way to go for my budget. I'm sure Beartooth nodes are great but for one of those I can get 5 nice meshtastic nodes. I've been playing around with a pair of TBeam Supremes. From my testing they can get signal through 1/4 mile of flat woods consistently. On a lake with line of sight it has gone over 6 miles.
@@BeartoothRadioIncinteresting. A lot of people are running things like Peltor or Sordin. Currently I’m unaware of any solution to integrate these common headsets. Would love to see direct PTT into beartooth much like the mpu5 or Harris radios
The fact Beartooth keeps getting influencers to shill for them with "discount codes" to drop the price per node to $750 or whatever is kind of laughable. Sell it for what it costs to make it viable in the market, period. Don't play these "discount" games with everyone for social media clout, imho.
I would still like to see a T-Rex meshtastic device. Honestly, even if it was just a waterproof shell. Pick which meshtastic device you like the best, and develop an actually professionally built shell that isn't 3D printed. I agree with your conclusion that BearTooth is probably best for the consumer, but meshtastic still has the public channel that makes it the digital text equivalent of CB radio which gives meshtastic an advantage towards what I think is your audience: the armed citizen. BearTooth still is much better for the pre-organized group, but when things happen, will we be with our pre-organized group? or will we be figuring it all out on the fly And if I still have your attention, please make the shell for the T-Beam Supreme
if you want the best battery performance (and do not want WIFI), go with RAK 19007/19003 meshtastic kit. for solar repeaters you want a RAK. if you do not want to participate in the general mesh, you can exclude Long Fast as your primary channel, and use your own channel name with a private key. i believe this means you cannot utilize other peoples nodes for mesh traffic. a private channel above channel 1, with a private key set to Long Fast will still utilize the public mesh. also, a RAK on a wing drone instead of a quad drone can give you much longer loiter time that a 30m quad flight. pushing hours.
@TREX LABS you should look into the RFinder M6 and M1s paired with a beartooth. The Rfinders are radios with an midrange android chip set and full screen that have options for larger power source in the size range of the MPU5. I think there is a sweet spot with them as they run FOSA's olympus, ATAK, radio, and cellular out of the box, if we could merge meshtac radios into that packaged easily then we are cooking with gas.
Did a little digging. Sorry if I missed it, but one thing important to point out (IMO) is that Meshtastic has a Python API. Thanks for all your content.
There's a guy in Eastern TN who is building weather-proof solar charging Meshtastic nodes with a multiwatt antenna for $250. They're a bit heavy, though, so it's much more of a base camp system.
I mean you can just get a mini or "travel" router for $50-150 and just put them in a mesh network and connect ur phone or tablet or PC and just used the standard TAK coms since ur all on the same LAN. A travel router is small and light enough to strap to a drone as well if say you want to increase your range and they could be ran of a small solar panel and battery if you want to simply place a node. You can power it from any 12v capable PD battery pack via a 12v adapter that request the appropriate voltage. Being on standard modern wifi gives you high bandwidth and blends in, in an urban environment plus you get encryption. Also ur router will automatically switch between 2.5, 5 and 6ghz depending on ur distance to other routers. With the correct firmware you can switch TX power on the fly by simply logging into the router and changing the power setting. Basically what im saying is these devices aside from the commercial devices are trying to reinvent the wheel and the commercial devices are basically customized wifi...
The way I understand the issue is not just footprint but power requirements and range. You could do all that with wifi, but need far more power and range is even more of an issue.
@@fortusvictus8297 A travel router does not consume much power and a standard consumer router does not consume much more. Power can be provided by a not garbage battery pack like you would use for mobile devices or laptops. Range can be extended by the router auto switching to 2.4Ghz which is built into the wifi protocol as long as you leave 2.4Ghz enabled as meshed devices move apart they will automatically do what they need to do to stay connected. They also automatically channel hop as long as you leave channel set to auto. I use enterprise AP's and I get wifi from my house a few streets over on my phone and it works fine granted environmental variables are always a factor. You can also put a router or AP on a drone and tether it to a battery pack or vehicle for power for both the AP and drone to extend your range. Another thing you can do is place an AP on a high roof somewhere and hang it over the edge. If you use a device with detachable antennas or solder on a TNC connector you can use a light weight compact directional antenna for extended directional communications which would extend the range of every meshed device connected to your router or AP by quite a bit while reducing your signature for long range coms. So basically with a single instruction session you can get everyone in your group setup on coms which pretty much do most everything automatically as long as you preset-up the devices all anyone might have to do is place an AP or connect a different antenna occasionally or plug in a cell phone or sat phone (I recommend plugin in those devices for 1 charging and 2 keeping more wireless channels open and 3 signature reduction) but wireless in also an option for those. You can connect a cellular or satcom device to the mesh via wifi or USB / Eathernet to truncate your coms threw additional networks. As long as your devices are set up for a VPN and the VPN is set to auto connect you can relatively safely (tho I would try to limit this method to as necessary as anything going threw another network is still a risk) communicate with anyone anywhere with minimal fuss and all these devices are already designed to do all of this automatically as long as the devices are set up that way. So for example you can have dedicated de-googled cell phones which only use is to connect a mesh network directly to other such devices / networks threw the internet via VPN and of course you can use ur satcom device of choice as well tho satcom may draw more attention than a cellular device and offer significantly lower data rates unless its Starlink or something but Starlink would no longer be a hand held device until Elon decides he wants to release something like that.
With Meshtastic, you can get a Heltec board, antenna, and battery kit for about $37, then you can inhale a $1.50 pack of tic tacs, and once you cut an antenna port into the tic tac box the battery and board fit in quite nicely for a final cost under $40. I got two of those on the way, and I have a T-Deck Plus also on the way, I'm hoping the performance is good enough to keep in contact with my grandparents and friends in low contact situations, though I suspect I'll have to buy some to use as pure repeaters if I want to ensure signal through my whole town, mount them high as I can with a beefy antenna.
Meshtastic 2.0 and beyond are not flood (hell even the prior version doesnt flood in the way this video describes, with everything repeating, it selects at random who repeats.) On current version devices on the edge of the transmiters range transmit first to try and get the longest hops in there is also additional priority given to systems that mark themselves as routers being their core function.
I'd like to see the range tests you ran-- current official record for meshtastic is about 158miles with basic antennas. The range is not a function of power so much, but a function of hearing--LoRa devices can 'hear' at over -20db under the noise floor, which is insane and accounts for their very low power yet impressive distance. We get over 40 miles easily with well placed nodes in our southern Wyoming network. And surprisingly good propagation even in mountainous terrain.
Yeah, if you get enough elevation and run slow mode and set up two fixed nodes specifically to set range records, 100 miles is pretty simple. When you are crawling around in the weeds with omnis, it's a slightly different story.
@@T.REXLabs True different story. But I believe those records were set with omni's. We're still continually surprised how well the LoRa protocol works though. In any case, would love to see the range tests of the Gotennas! I thought I saw on their website ranges in the 1-2km range with good LOS, which is what one would expect from radios yes, using 2m-ish band at 5w, but no super efficient below-noise-floor capable digital protocol.
@@T.REXLabs We did the Meshtastic record by taking multiple trace routes from 2 different (stock) handheld devices with junky 2dbi OMNIs with ok SWR. We also did a 173km range test with junky omni snapped in half. 254km was done on the LongFast setting (not slow) to simulate the default settings. It would have easily done that distance even on the fastest setting. We have unofficial airborn records well over 400km. Yes this was line of sight, but was also point to point with the Fresnel zone showing almost 100% blocked in the mapping calculations. While urban point to point can be limited by sheer terrain, just 1 extra well placed node (on a water tower or roof) will give a blanket signal for the entire area. After all, these are all mesh devices we are talking about. If there’s a mountain in between you, doesn’t matter what device you use, you’ll still need a repeater of some sort. Meshtastic should really be at the top of the chart for both range and price.
Can you do some content on secure android devices? I like the idea of mesh radios and ATAK, but not really keen on running my android phone in the field for all sorts of reasons. I know Beartooth sell and android device in one of their kits, but its also expensive and spending another pile of money on a companion phone just makes it even more cost prohibitive.
The majority of people into preparedness probably won’t buy a single beartooth, much less enough of them to have a serious network. (Most won’t even buy a $300 anytone to have an encrypted handheld) You could have a great little Meshtastic network for the price of a single beartooth. You can have an awesome meshtastic network for the price of a pair of beartooth devices. A $650 price difference per node just isn’t justifiable to the majority of people IMO. The performance boost to price increase can’t be worth it. However, I am excited to see how this space improves and evolves over the next few years.
If you know your way around electronics it's also quite easy to get a meshtastic radio connected to a relatively small solar panel and keep it charged for basically ever at least until the battery age keeps it from making it through the night and the occasional seasonal string of bad weather. A particularly industrious person could even dawn a high vis vest and some climbing equipment and mount the whole thing on a telephone pole at the top of a hill and install it without anyone so much as batting an eye going unnoticed for a year or more.
Your completely right. These mesh radios are useless unless you have a few of them for the other people you want to communicate with. Id say 90 percent of us preppers are basically lone wolf types that don't have that coin to spend on mesh radios to just sit somewhere waiting to hand out. And if we did, the people we would hand them to wouldn't have any clue how to use them even with some instruction. If you don't have "a group, 'with money' ", just buy and stock a dozen baofeng HT's...
@@tylerhall6455 Yeah the Baofeng stash is a good baseline for preparedness.The next step would probably be encrypted Handhelds radios over any mesh devices. However,l Meshtastic is super easy for people who have no desire to learn radio stuff to use. If they can text, they can use Meshtastic. It's a good neighborhood type thing that gives the ability for encryption and has a lower signature than radios. Pros and cons.
LoRa isn't just for comms. There's a whole host of environmental monitoring applications and modules available. Want to know if a gate has been opened or something is chasing your livestock, Heltec has a node for that. RAK also has a heap of add on modules. Movement, gas detection, IR detection, vibration and more.
Yeah, it's arguably more valuable for other types of network traffic that can the shorter messaged, scheduled checks, and triggered by other actions. I would love to rig up an entire farm with lora sensors. The cloud-based smart home is over; smart off-grid farms are the new notness!
Beartooth is too expensive for what most people can afford even with the discount code. Would like to see more meshtastic content. Also the background music during the range part starting at 5:08 goes HARD. What song is it?
@10:49, I believe you meant to say "PLI" data, (Position Location Infornation), versus LPI (Low-Probability of Intercept). You spoke about both in this video, so I wanted to make sure no one gets confused if they're watching this, lol.
More interesting than drones is a rugged balloon that is small enough to carry and not attract too much attention in some areas while also being tethered. Theoretically the balloon could stay up in the air longer and possibly go higher. I haven't done enough research but I'm willing to bet this could be a lower cost, rapidly deployable/ retractable method for putting a mesh device high enough to get impressive range. Should also be less expensive.
Once Meshtastic has integrated voice comms it’ll absolutely explode. I’m genuinely considering a Meshtastic network for addition comms coverage for my volley FD. We’re in the mountains, so the cell service in our fire district is pretty garbage and the radios are hit or miss, especially with terrain considerations and aging repeaters.
FreqHop is old tech but it makes your signal almost impossible to block AND if you create a personalized security key and timing, well good luck breaking into those comms wether digital or voice.
I just got a few lora radios on meshtastic and integrated them into ATAK-Civ. I've been working on getting my DJI drone working in ATAK with the UAS plugin. I'd love to see you do a video on this. I've been having issues with ATAK crashing while using the plugin.
I wonder if/when we will start seeing plugins and software to integrate the Vero radios with ATAK. The GMRS Pro or Vr-N76 type radios would probably work great for this.
We just need more competition here to drive down beartooth pricing. Or someone make a very good, seamless meshtastic plugin for atak than is currently available.
Isn't there a way to integrate ATAK into a wifi stack? Using a wifi mesh with a vhf/uhf backbone for longer distance/ out of 2.4ghz range stuff seems doable.
@BeartoothRadioInc yeah dawg, I simply do not believe that. If you said you had to offset R&D costs that'd be fair, but PCB boards and Microprocessors aren't THAT expensive. Even the case is just additive manufacturing. Stop grifting. You're just giving people a reason to stay with meshtastic and that's the last thing you want to do when your main competitor is open source. The more people you drive away with your cash grab the faster they're gonna grow. I wish you a happy bankruptcy
@@BeastHunterSam thank you for the feedback. the main radio srack is $100 alone. add in other components and mechanical housing, antenna, battery.... and you are correct there is years of R&D plus ongoing software development to support ATAK, iTAK, Android, and iOS,.
@@BeastHunterSamgo ahead and bring your own “Beartooth” to the market at a better price performance value… I’ll wait. Otherwise, complaining about cost is one of the most baseless points to argue… especially after Isaac pointed out the current market options and price/value curve. Folks invest $750 on a rifle or optic, each of these comms tools should be considered as well. A vortex $750 optic with lifetime warranty is reassuring, not sure of Beartooth warranty support but presume it’s better than Meshtastic.
Don't overlook the Lilygo T-Echo for Meshtastic. It is an all in one for about $63. Has the SX1262 radio chip and is the only Lilygo unit with the power-sipping nRF52 processor.
When it comes to ATAK I'm planning to find and buy some 802.11ah WiFi HaLow APs/routers which operate at the ~900MHz band... It could probably work like a LAN but I'll see...
900mhz band is also where cordless phones (remember those?) typically operate. Also, with encrypted radios, my understanding is the FCC requires a business license to operate? Is that not the case with digital radios?
I was about to pull the trigger on beartooth but man, that gateway cost 😬. Pairing it with starlink seemed like a dream for my wildland fire crews but it’s gonna have to wait a season.
Trex, I have to take issue with a few statements on meshtastic. So, who am I to question/correct the great and all mighty "Trex"?...... I'm no one....... And I like it that way. However, I do have 90+ active mesh nodes in my state. For nearly 100% coverage of my state. And I/We have learned quite a lot about meshtastic over the past few years. First issue- Bat life, you mentioned the Beartooth lasting a "day or more" as though that was/is a "pro"...... You do realize the Old "T-beam" (which are horribly inefficient compared to current designs) will last a week+ with a single 18650? (+- 2500mah nmc bat) With the current energy efficient designs we see 2+ weeks on a single 18650 charge........ Add in a 3 dollar solar panel and you can ignore energy usage completely.... This is of course somewhat dependent in network usage. And strongly dependent on temperature. (Pro tip - Skip both NMC and LFP battery chemistries all together, and go straight to LTO. LTO performance in freezing temps is Orders of magnitude better than NMC or LFP) Second issue - Range. I don't understand how you're only getting 1-2k out of your system/s. As far as I know the current record is just under 200 miles for a point-to-point connection (LOS @ 1watt). I/We routinely see 100+ mile connections (point-to-point) (early days before we filled in the network). Though to be fair the vast majority of my nodes are 200-300+ feet in the air. That being said; I find it hard to believe 1-2k range with a proper setup and a good antenna. Max +2dbi for a "ground unit", NO MORE than +2dbi. And No more than +6dbi for a fixed node. (intracity, Assuming its up high) However intercity can use +9-12dbi nodes to cover the miles. (Pro tip - Use a +9-12dbi node co-located with a 0-+2dbi node to cover mountain top to mountain top AND cover the valleys between) Third issue - Network response and data throughput. Sure, you're NOT going to VIOP or facetime over a lora network. However, I vehemently disagree that a lora network is unsuitable for ATAK usage. Sure, it is "sluggish" for 1080p+ rez pics. You simply write your TTP's to minimize large file usage. Aside from large files, we have actually tested send-receive-respond (in ATAK) to +-750ms over 200 miles separation............. How much faster does a network need to be to qualify for ATAK in your eyes? IMO +- 750ms (over 200 miles) is MORE than "fast enough" for tactical operations........ Last issue - The statement of "90% of your network is spent transmitting other peoples stuff" is simply untrue. The only thing on your network are authorized nodes and users. Nothing else.....
The Beartooth might be a better option. I've seen a few videos where meshtastic has been over saturated with everyone jumping onto them, this has been an issue at a few conventions. There have been a few different modes, but rather than hacking, they could be useless by over-saturating the frequency.
@@T.REXLabs you can change that in the device configuration. in the device role, select "CLIENT_HIDDEN". this role has rebroadcast set to "LOCAL_ONLY", wich according to the documentation, "Ignores observed messages from foreign meshes that are open or those which it cannot decrypt."
@@daa3417 Fair observation, A lot of use cases people are planning on using this for would fall into an "incident response" category. Comms down, balloon up.
Find tallest tree, strap a long thin antenna to the top, or use another drone with a repeater to fly to top of tree and land. Seems simpler if the terrain allows.
The lilygo t-echo meshtastic is the closest thing to plug and play in meshtastic world at $55ish yall can see if it works for you for 100 and then see if you want to upgrade or build your own nodes
i have a question about wifi halow devices......even if internet and whole power grid goes down....could you still use these to communicate with each other?
Yes, so long as you can provide the devices with power via solar, batteries, or a generator. WiFi works just fine as an intranet for local-area connectivity with no link back to the broader internet.
Beartooth is 90% Meshtastic, plus some proprietary stuff you don't want, for 25x the price. In my opinion, it's the worst of all worlds. I am the guy who looks inside and says, "I can make something better" though.
Just once I'd like the solution not to be "spend thousands of dollars". I guess that's why I bought a bunch of walmart solar spotlights and cheapo lora boards. My buddy and I are setting up a dozen nodes for less than the price of one beartooth. I'm sure the beartooth is nice, just like nods are, but there's a reason we own "poverty pony" AR's
You left out one advantage of Meshtastic that shouldn’t be ignored. If you are operating in an environment that already has a well-functioning Meshtastic network, that network will automatically repeat your traffic and increase your team’s coverage beyond what you would be able to achieve with only your own nodes. You don’t need to coordinate this with other node owners, and they won’t be able to decrypt your encrypted traffic. At the cost of potentially increased congestion, you can experience a massive boost of range by piggybacking off the networks that others have built for their own purposes.
Question for guys who know more about these devices… if someone near you had a similar device, would they be able to receive your information? Like say I’m using a pair of beartooth mk II and someone within range had the same device, would they be able to see my location, see messages sent, voice, etc?
I dont have experience with beartooth, but all 3 options have encrypted comms, wich means that the only people who will "understand" your information are the ones you share the key with. Outsiders can still "see" the signal, but cant decrypt it (my understanding is that the 256bit encryption is bruteforce proof, but can still be badly implemented, leading to possible cracks) I dont know if this is a feature in other radios, but meshtastic also has a default public channel, so you can use encrypted comms with you group, while also monitoring/interacting with people in your vicinity
Just to clarify, people recording the RF spectrum can see a signal, but cant see the contents. people with similar devices but without the encryption key wont see anything, and, to my understand, their devices wont retransmit your signal
15:10 - u can't put stand alone devices on a drone of they have a lithium battery. Transporting lithium batteries is a violation of the drone laws. Work arounds: Power device from drone power. Use carbon or nickel batteries. Or... Add a strobe to lora unit and consider its primary duty to be a light safety beacon... then it can be powered by lithium since it's for aircraft safety... and where it's secondary duty is coms. U could also have the unit send flight information.. possibly gps, speed, direction.
I am literally in the middle of testing Beartooth MK2, SpecFive Meshtastic ATAK, Gotenna x2
Nice! Let me know what you find.
Honestly.
Beartooth is expensive the most important part that did not talk enough about is that Gateway is over $2000 which you have to have to use an ATAK server. Even if you build your own.
Bear tooth does voice and it’s pretty darn good. And none of the others in civilian price ranges do voice. It’s not bad at all. The pictures taken anywhere between 2 to 3 minutes to send but they’re not bad.
If Beartooth didn’t charge so much money for a gateway, it would be more interesting even if they allowed you to use a radio to connect to your own server.
But the fact that the gateway is so much money, it’s really hard to justify.
I will say the updates and messages are near real time which is very impressive. But I always come back to the Gateway price.
The CEO of Beartooth will respond to you himself and is actively engaged with the customers.
Yeah, the Gateway is pretty steep for what you get. I think you could replicate the functionality with your own TAK server and a wifi router to bridge to a phone with a regular Beartooth node, but we haven't tried that yet.
But yeah, actually real-time traffic is important. And having an accessible team to talk to is huge.
@@T.REXLabs the value in the Gateway is in the software. there is some pretty heavy duty networking code to handle all the security aspects plus bridging an IP network to a non IP network. Its arguably pretty low priced versus the networking capability the end user is getting.
@@BeartoothRadioInc caca
I am an integrator for Silvus mesh radios. Good products. Primary clients are LE. I am glad to see a review of more "civilian friendly" mesh radios. Thanks TREX LABS.
What’s considered not civilian friendly other than the military’s own use ?
Not sure what the difference is between the Silvus for civs and Silvus for military is but the Silvus used by the military has a decent range. Typically about 2-5km depending antenna placements, interference, etc.
@@Sethiol73 Yeah that is what we typically see as well concerning ranges. We "soft" mounted one to a Hughes MD 550 helicopter once for testing and reached significantly further than typical ground deployment. I believe the only difference between civ and mil versions, is the bands allowed to transmit on.
@@chadl.981 We recently did a test with a UAS and got further than we would expect with VHF/SINCGARS. If you can believe that.
Law enforcement are civilians too. We need to stop putting them outside of us. They are NOT military, despite how badly they'd like to LARP as one.
Awesome vid. Easily digestible for a complex subject. Thanks for putting free content out for us not so wealthy folks who want to prep. Remember Proverbs 27:17.
Thank you for going over all this. I'm currently working on together putting a a local mesh Network for our brush trucks for wildland ops.
Thank you TREX for the shout out and informative video!
Everything is perfect with Beartooth other than improvements need to be made with ruggedization, built-in ptt button or in house ptt accessories, and PRICE. User friendliness is what I like to see and absolutely deserve praise for, just most people can not swallow the price tag, if you guys lower the price, and more people are going to use them and buy them, it would be a better advertisement than anything.
But at the end, it's just my opinion.
@@Vinn_K thank you for your feedback, we are working as hard as we can to drive price down, use the TREX code to save! lots of third party PTT devices on the market.
@@Vinn_Kprice is a matter of market forces and business sustainability… if/once these get more popularly adopted - only then can the price possibly come down.
@@bthemedia Then we are at a loop, because the price is high for what it is, not many will buy it, and because of no one buy it the price stays high. At the very least I can see it being utilized at hard core airsoft events, and most people there can't just throw 750 at it, me personally would have no problems paying 500 which is already high for a lot of people. Let's put the cost of the parts at 200, 300 for the software and future support of said software and future development is in my opinion, quite fair.
Please make more units and bring costs down.
I've had a set of BTR MK2s for a few months now and love them. They're literally plug and play and just work compared to my team metastatic boards. Learning more about Pi devices to make my own ATAK server currently (Zero Tier works great, but I wanna keep learning). Beartooth also just recently started their own TAK server which works great as well...
thank you for the feecback!
Great comparison in one video. What a wide range of use cases. I like that this space is very well segmented and use cases / customer is fairly well defined.
The Meshtastic mesh where i live is phenomenal. Consistently getting almost 80 miles using only 2 or 3 hops. Its all about infrastructure. For example we have a few nodes on peaks that look down on the valley that allow for crazy range. I get for tactical use infrastructure usually needs to be man portable but i bet you could find a way to make a meshtastic range extender man portable.
I have a little EDC heltac v3. Mostly for hiking and communication with the wify. 20 bucks plus 5 euro battery and a free thingeverse case printed by a friend. As a network and security engineer this technology is very intriguing.
Trex labs is my favorite Trex channel.
Isaac is my favourite Botkin 🙌
No drama and all business
@@danielkemp4860 Facts, Isaac = Best Botkin
@@alexz5336 ... What? You must not have seen my twitter feed.
100% agree, sharing info we want to know, no showing off, just nerding out with us, and no drama
My hat goes off to you. Thank you so much for taking the time out to put these types of videos together. You’re a great American brother.
Nice comparison video. We just did a great interview over on our channel about getting the infrastructure set up for Meshtastic which would help support ATAK, or whatever use case, across a town or city.
The range claims here definitely don't seem right though. Current record for meshtastic is 300km. We're regularly getting 20+
Yeah, we think this is what Meshtastic is great at; big static meshes for wider community use. Messages would not be instantaneous, but they don't need to be for most applications.
@@T.REXLabs Prepare for the most likely scenarios first, right?
Meshtastic range is mostly dependent on typography. The Lora radios pretty much need line of sight, so if you live in Kansas, your range can be very impressive. Big cities or mountainous regions require a lot more nodes to ensure coverage.
@@BrewMeister27 Big cities have lots of nodes though. Good luck building a mesh in nothingville, unless you are going to fund it yourself and build it yourself.
@@BrewMeister27 That's true of all of these mesh radios. None of the radios mentioned in this video support BLOS
so nice to have a serious channel that doesn't tear others down
I want to take a moment and thank you for the great content as well as the quality of your videos.
That affiliate shout out at the end for other creators was hella cool. Great video!
As an RF specialist you did a very good job with this.
Well done, I did my masters thesis on Lora, and utilizing them in the UAS space like ADSB.
My power company has been installing Meshtastic transceivers all over the countryside for their power meter network.
Aliexpress sells the LoRa32 V2.1_1.6 Version 915Mhz ESP32 LoRa OLED 0.96 Inch SD Card Bluetooth WIFI Wireless Module ESP-32 SMA for about 23 bucks. Tiny display but it does work and it has an antenna.
That's a pretty cool idea, especially if you're using directional lora
Great technical comms and market survey comparison as always Isaac, much appreciated! Understanding the pros/cons of each platform on the price/performance spectrum is really helpful for making informed buying decisions… and C2 or Move/Shoot/Communicate - the secure comms is perhaps the most important of mission effectiveness - especially when it’s communicating valuable and timeline information/intel.
Love this! I use Beartooth, and while I am a complete and total novice with coms… it works quite well for me.
thank you for the feedback!
Excellent video on this stuff. I'm a radio guy myself (ham radio operator), and I admit I know very little about the mesh radios out there besides the basics. Thinking about buying some of the meshtastic stuff up to tinker with and develop some skills off them. Thanks!
Do it. It's a lot of fun. I do prefer the Rak 19007's when it comes to boards. But an inexpensive 2 pack of Heltec V3s with 3dbi antennas on Amazon are like ~$53 and a great start to get your feet when. But battery life sucks. So I prefer a Rak 19007 without screen and 1100mah gets you 4+ days of battery life.
Meshtastic is the way to go for most, you can build a 10 unit network inc repeater units for the price of a single Beartooth unit. The most important thing to understand is the local topography and hill shade so you can optimally locate ~ 3 repeaters. By doing this I've had coverage ~ 40km by 40km with longest node to node direct ~ 16km. The gotenna pro deployment pack is very effective and can be used to map local area traffic and thus determine best frequencies/wavelengths to operate on - its a very good system. Last and most obviously, height of antenna agl is often far more important than power of transmitter.
I’ve been looking for exactly this!!!❤
Beartooth is a no-go at that price
This has been my question for months. Thank you!
Why does no one tie one to a balloon with a 200ft string?
That is a completely workable, practical, usable strategy.
this actually a very good idea. we tie Beartooth to a kite to achieve this
Done.
Szenario Desaster:
- cheap
- easy
- Portable
- good performance
- with led flashlight it’s a beacon
But
- danger to aircrafts
Szenario Tactical
- only for knowen places like camps
That just happened in Cedar Rapids at a HAM meet. I was getting signal from really far. I think FAA starts to get involved with that, though
Some guys in Canada did this with meshtastic using a weather balloon. Got 128 miles ground to air.
This is the video I've been waiting on. I'd also like to see what these can't do compared to Silvus or MPU.
Edit: Nvm, you covered it.
I’ve used all three of these pretty extensively and agree with your assessment. The Beartooth are typically my recommendation but the performance of the GoTenna is difficult to argue with. One thing that absolutely drives me up a wall about the GoTenna units is the connector though. It’s 2024 and why it isn’t USB-C is in my opinion, unacceptable.
Their new pro device will come with usb-c, but they were working on that over a year ago so who knows when it’ll come out.
I feel that meshtastic is the way to go for my budget. I'm sure Beartooth nodes are great but for one of those I can get 5 nice meshtastic nodes.
I've been playing around with a pair of TBeam Supremes. From my testing they can get signal through 1/4 mile of flat woods consistently. On a lake with line of sight it has gone over 6 miles.
Beartooth is over priced, Gotenna stopped selling to civilians or supporting people who already bought them. The only solution for this is Meshtastic.
I just wish it didn't suck....
Furthermore beartooth doesn’t even support a hardware PTT. You going to ask that much and are missing critical features? No thanks.
@@TheStudentOfNumbers great news. We support all kinds of PTT hardware. Ranging from Samsung X Cover PTT key to Klein PTT to Aina and more to come!
@@BeartoothRadioIncinteresting. A lot of people are running things like Peltor or Sordin. Currently I’m unaware of any solution to integrate these common headsets. Would love to see direct PTT into beartooth much like the mpu5 or Harris radios
The fact Beartooth keeps getting influencers to shill for them with "discount codes" to drop the price per node to $750 or whatever is kind of laughable.
Sell it for what it costs to make it viable in the market, period. Don't play these "discount" games with everyone for social media clout, imho.
I would still like to see a T-Rex meshtastic device. Honestly, even if it was just a waterproof shell. Pick which meshtastic device you like the best, and develop an actually professionally built shell that isn't 3D printed.
I agree with your conclusion that BearTooth is probably best for the consumer, but meshtastic still has the public channel that makes it the digital text equivalent of CB radio which gives meshtastic an advantage towards what I think is your audience: the armed citizen. BearTooth still is much better for the pre-organized group, but when things happen, will we be with our pre-organized group? or will we be figuring it all out on the fly
And if I still have your attention, please make the shell for the T-Beam Supreme
Meshing around
meshing!
Simply meshing about in boats...
Not if NextNav gets their way.
Underrated channel.
No one mentioned Doodle Labs mesh. Basically a beartooth priced mpu5. Very interesting piece of kit
if you want the best battery performance (and do not want WIFI), go with RAK 19007/19003 meshtastic kit. for solar repeaters you want a RAK.
if you do not want to participate in the general mesh, you can exclude Long Fast as your primary channel, and use your own channel name with a private key. i believe this means you cannot utilize other peoples nodes for mesh traffic. a private channel above channel 1, with a private key set to Long Fast will still utilize the public mesh.
also, a RAK on a wing drone instead of a quad drone can give you much longer loiter time that a 30m quad flight. pushing hours.
lets go🔥, been waiting for this!!
@TREX LABS you should look into the RFinder M6 and M1s paired with a beartooth. The Rfinders are radios with an midrange android chip set and full screen that have options for larger power source in the size range of the MPU5. I think there is a sweet spot with them as they run FOSA's olympus, ATAK, radio, and cellular out of the box, if we could merge meshtac radios into that packaged easily then we are cooking with gas.
Did a little digging. Sorry if I missed it, but one thing important to point out (IMO) is that Meshtastic has a Python API.
Thanks for all your content.
@@kinvert that is important!
@@AlwaysPreparedSolutions Why is that important?
@warspirit9488 understanding which OS is used for the programming could sway which device a person wishes to choose.
There's a guy in Eastern TN who is building weather-proof solar charging Meshtastic nodes with a multiwatt antenna for $250. They're a bit heavy, though, so it's much more of a base camp system.
Great video. Turn key Meshtastic devices are getting cheaper. The T-Echo Lillygo is only $55 and the SensCAP Card Tracker is $40.
I'll be testing the Card Tracker whenever it ships. It's only 100ma, but it can talk to a bigger node somewhere else, I guess ...
we have come along way in the last 3 years.
I mean you can just get a mini or "travel" router for $50-150 and just put them in a mesh network and connect ur phone or tablet or PC and just used the standard TAK coms since ur all on the same LAN. A travel router is small and light enough to strap to a drone as well if say you want to increase your range and they could be ran of a small solar panel and battery if you want to simply place a node. You can power it from any 12v capable PD battery pack via a 12v adapter that request the appropriate voltage. Being on standard modern wifi gives you high bandwidth and blends in, in an urban environment plus you get encryption. Also ur router will automatically switch between 2.5, 5 and 6ghz depending on ur distance to other routers. With the correct firmware you can switch TX power on the fly by simply logging into the router and changing the power setting. Basically what im saying is these devices aside from the commercial devices are trying to reinvent the wheel and the commercial devices are basically customized wifi...
The way I understand the issue is not just footprint but power requirements and range. You could do all that with wifi, but need far more power and range is even more of an issue.
@@fortusvictus8297 A travel router does not consume much power and a standard consumer router does not consume much more. Power can be provided by a not garbage battery pack like you would use for mobile devices or laptops. Range can be extended by the router auto switching to 2.4Ghz which is built into the wifi protocol as long as you leave 2.4Ghz enabled as meshed devices move apart they will automatically do what they need to do to stay connected. They also automatically channel hop as long as you leave channel set to auto. I use enterprise AP's and I get wifi from my house a few streets over on my phone and it works fine granted environmental variables are always a factor.
You can also put a router or AP on a drone and tether it to a battery pack or vehicle for power for both the AP and drone to extend your range. Another thing you can do is place an AP on a high roof somewhere and hang it over the edge. If you use a device with detachable antennas or solder on a TNC connector you can use a light weight compact directional antenna for extended directional communications which would extend the range of every meshed device connected to your router or AP by quite a bit while reducing your signature for long range coms.
So basically with a single instruction session you can get everyone in your group setup on coms which pretty much do most everything automatically as long as you preset-up the devices all anyone might have to do is place an AP or connect a different antenna occasionally or plug in a cell phone or sat phone (I recommend plugin in those devices for 1 charging and 2 keeping more wireless channels open and 3 signature reduction) but wireless in also an option for those.
You can connect a cellular or satcom device to the mesh via wifi or USB / Eathernet to truncate your coms threw additional networks. As long as your devices are set up for a VPN and the VPN is set to auto connect you can relatively safely (tho I would try to limit this method to as necessary as anything going threw another network is still a risk) communicate with anyone anywhere with minimal fuss and all these devices are already designed to do all of this automatically as long as the devices are set up that way. So for example you can have dedicated de-googled cell phones which only use is to connect a mesh network directly to other such devices / networks threw the internet via VPN and of course you can use ur satcom device of choice as well tho satcom may draw more attention than a cellular device and offer significantly lower data rates unless its Starlink or something but Starlink would no longer be a hand held device until Elon decides he wants to release something like that.
With Meshtastic, you can get a Heltec board, antenna, and battery kit for about $37, then you can inhale a $1.50 pack of tic tacs, and once you cut an antenna port into the tic tac box the battery and board fit in quite nicely for a final cost under $40. I got two of those on the way, and I have a T-Deck Plus also on the way, I'm hoping the performance is good enough to keep in contact with my grandparents and friends in low contact situations, though I suspect I'll have to buy some to use as pure repeaters if I want to ensure signal through my whole town, mount them high as I can with a beefy antenna.
TicTac-tastics sound even better than Altoid Tin QRP radios.
@@T.REXLabs tic-tac-stic 🙂
Meshtastic 2.0 and beyond are not flood (hell even the prior version doesnt flood in the way this video describes, with everything repeating, it selects at random who repeats.)
On current version devices on the edge of the transmiters range transmit first to try and get the longest hops in there is also additional priority given to systems that mark themselves as routers being their core function.
you know this guy knows what hes talking about from just the name
I'd like to see the range tests you ran-- current official record for meshtastic is about 158miles with basic antennas. The range is not a function of power so much, but a function of hearing--LoRa devices can 'hear' at over -20db under the noise floor, which is insane and accounts for their very low power yet impressive distance. We get over 40 miles easily with well placed nodes in our southern Wyoming network. And surprisingly good propagation even in mountainous terrain.
Yeah, if you get enough elevation and run slow mode and set up two fixed nodes specifically to set range records, 100 miles is pretty simple. When you are crawling around in the weeds with omnis, it's a slightly different story.
@@T.REXLabs True different story. But I believe those records were set with omni's. We're still continually surprised how well the LoRa protocol works though. In any case, would love to see the range tests of the Gotennas! I thought I saw on their website ranges in the 1-2km range with good LOS, which is what one would expect from radios yes, using 2m-ish band at 5w, but no super efficient below-noise-floor capable digital protocol.
@@T.REXLabs We did the Meshtastic record by taking multiple trace routes from 2 different (stock) handheld devices with junky 2dbi OMNIs with ok SWR. We also did a 173km range test with junky omni snapped in half. 254km was done on the LongFast setting (not slow) to simulate the default settings. It would have easily done that distance even on the fastest setting. We have unofficial airborn records well over 400km. Yes this was line of sight, but was also point to point with the Fresnel zone showing almost 100% blocked in the mapping calculations. While urban point to point can be limited by sheer terrain, just 1 extra well placed node (on a water tower or roof) will give a blanket signal for the entire area. After all, these are all mesh devices we are talking about. If there’s a mountain in between you, doesn’t matter what device you use, you’ll still need a repeater of some sort. Meshtastic should really be at the top of the chart for both range and price.
Can you do some content on secure android devices? I like the idea of mesh radios and ATAK, but not really keen on running my android phone in the field for all sorts of reasons. I know Beartooth sell and android device in one of their kits, but its also expensive and spending another pile of money on a companion phone just makes it even more cost prohibitive.
The majority of people into preparedness probably won’t buy a single beartooth, much less enough of them to have a serious network. (Most won’t even buy a $300 anytone to have an encrypted handheld) You could have a great little Meshtastic network for the price of a single beartooth. You can have an awesome meshtastic network for the price of a pair of beartooth devices. A $650 price difference per node just isn’t justifiable to the majority of people IMO. The performance boost to price increase can’t be worth it.
However, I am excited to see how this space improves and evolves over the next few years.
If you know your way around electronics it's also quite easy to get a meshtastic radio connected to a relatively small solar panel and keep it charged for basically ever at least until the battery age keeps it from making it through the night and the occasional seasonal string of bad weather.
A particularly industrious person could even dawn a high vis vest and some climbing equipment and mount the whole thing on a telephone pole at the top of a hill and install it without anyone so much as batting an eye going unnoticed for a year or more.
@@Segphalt yeah the modularity and portability of Meshtastic is great. It doesn’t take much to learn it all.
Your completely right. These mesh radios are useless unless you have a few of them for the other people you want to communicate with. Id say 90 percent of us preppers are basically lone wolf types that don't have that coin to spend on mesh radios to just sit somewhere waiting to hand out. And if we did, the people we would hand them to wouldn't have any clue how to use them even with some instruction. If you don't have "a group, 'with money' ", just buy and stock a dozen baofeng HT's...
@@tylerhall6455 Yeah the Baofeng stash is a good baseline for preparedness.The next step would probably be encrypted Handhelds radios over any mesh devices.
However,l Meshtastic is super easy for people who have no desire to learn radio stuff to use. If they can text, they can use Meshtastic. It's a good neighborhood type thing that gives the ability for encryption and has a lower signature than radios. Pros and cons.
Exactly. Beartooth is a ripoff. Also, you can build 2 x very nice nodes for $100, not 1.
LoRa isn't just for comms. There's a whole host of environmental monitoring applications and modules available. Want to know if a gate has been opened or something is chasing your livestock, Heltec has a node for that. RAK also has a heap of add on modules. Movement, gas detection, IR detection, vibration and more.
Yeah, it's arguably more valuable for other types of network traffic that can the shorter messaged, scheduled checks, and triggered by other actions. I would love to rig up an entire farm with lora sensors. The cloud-based smart home is over; smart off-grid farms are the new notness!
Just made a video on the MPU5 , never heard of the goTenna, would love to get hands on with that system.
Beartooth is too expensive for what most people can afford even with the discount code. Would like to see more meshtastic content. Also the background music during the range part starting at 5:08 goes HARD. What song is it?
@10:49, I believe you meant to say "PLI" data, (Position Location Infornation), versus LPI (Low-Probability of Intercept). You spoke about both in this video, so I wanted to make sure no one gets confused if they're watching this, lol.
I also meant to say Low Probability of Detect, which is an additional mistake.
Thank u for the video and cannel.
Greetings from Germany
Thanks Isaac!
I like the topo map used to break up segments. Wonder if it's available to download? I kinda just want to stare are it for a while while it rotates.
More interesting than drones is a rugged balloon that is small enough to carry and not attract too much attention in some areas while also being tethered. Theoretically the balloon could stay up in the air longer and possibly go higher. I haven't done enough research but I'm willing to bet this could be a lower cost, rapidly deployable/ retractable method for putting a mesh device high enough to get impressive range. Should also be less expensive.
Mesh might not necessarily own the future of communications yet, but I would bet that mesh is transformative of future communications in some way.
YeeHaw. Looking forward to this one.
I'd never even heard of beartooth before this.
Once Meshtastic has integrated voice comms it’ll absolutely explode. I’m genuinely considering a Meshtastic network for addition comms coverage for my volley FD. We’re in the mountains, so the cell service in our fire district is pretty garbage and the radios are hit or miss, especially with terrain considerations and aging repeaters.
FreqHop is old tech but it makes your signal almost impossible to block AND if you create a personalized security key and timing, well good luck breaking into those comms wether digital or voice.
You should check out the T-deck with the extended battery ham radio crash course showed one recently
I just got a few lora radios on meshtastic and integrated them into ATAK-Civ. I've been working on getting my DJI drone working in ATAK with the UAS plugin. I'd love to see you do a video on this. I've been having issues with ATAK crashing while using the plugin.
I need that for wooworking, to tell mama that I am dead if a Bear messes up with me in the jungle... LOL
Nice beartooth ad
I wonder if/when we will start seeing plugins and software to integrate the Vero radios with ATAK. The GMRS Pro or Vr-N76 type radios would probably work great for this.
We just need more competition here to drive down beartooth pricing. Or someone make a very good, seamless meshtastic plugin for atak than is currently available.
The biggest bottleneck for mashtastic is not so much the plug-in, but the actual network speed and traffic routing of LoRa.
Isn't there a way to integrate ATAK into a wifi stack? Using a wifi mesh with a vhf/uhf backbone for longer distance/ out of 2.4ghz range stuff seems doable.
This comms stuff is cool, how does one find a battle buddy?
Beartooth would move so much inventory at 300 a piece.
and lose a ton of money..... that wouldn't cover the bill of materials.....(-:
@BeartoothRadioInc yeah dawg, I simply do not believe that.
If you said you had to offset R&D costs that'd be fair, but PCB boards and Microprocessors aren't THAT expensive. Even the case is just additive manufacturing.
Stop grifting. You're just giving people a reason to stay with meshtastic and that's the last thing you want to do when your main competitor is open source. The more people you drive away with your cash grab the faster they're gonna grow.
I wish you a happy bankruptcy
@@BeastHunterSam thank you for the feedback. the main radio srack is $100 alone. add in other components and mechanical housing, antenna, battery.... and you are correct there is years of R&D plus ongoing software development to support ATAK, iTAK, Android, and iOS,.
@@BeartoothRadioInc ok so say that instead of lying about material costs
@@BeastHunterSamgo ahead and bring your own “Beartooth” to the market at a better price performance value… I’ll wait. Otherwise, complaining about cost is one of the most baseless points to argue… especially after Isaac pointed out the current market options and price/value curve. Folks invest $750 on a rifle or optic, each of these comms tools should be considered as well. A vortex $750 optic with lifetime warranty is reassuring, not sure of Beartooth warranty support but presume it’s better than Meshtastic.
Using wifi halow would be best with range of about 3km and mesh networking 802.11ahs is great
We need a 5w beartooth, or cheaper prices so we can buy a third unit and put it upon a balloon or drone for repeating.
Finallly 🎉🎉🎉🎉
One more comment, you should also look at the Doodle Labs Mesh Rider Radios.
Don't overlook the Lilygo T-Echo for Meshtastic. It is an all in one for about $63. Has the SX1262 radio chip and is the only Lilygo unit with the power-sipping nRF52 processor.
Yep, that's a good combo.
When it comes to ATAK I'm planning to find and buy some 802.11ah WiFi HaLow APs/routers which operate at the ~900MHz band... It could probably work like a LAN but I'll see...
900mhz band is also where cordless phones (remember those?) typically operate. Also, with encrypted radios, my understanding is the FCC requires a business license to operate? Is that not the case with digital radios?
If you are in the ISM bands, like your wifi is, it can be encrypted and used to communicate encrypted content.
In a SHTF scenario put one up with a tethered balloon. Bring it up and down to change the batteries in the radio etc.
I was about to pull the trigger on beartooth but man, that gateway cost 😬. Pairing it with starlink seemed like a dream for my wildland fire crews but it’s gonna have to wait a season.
Cheap long range antennae is a few helium balloons 🎈 and a mesh radio attached to the ground. Can stay up for days. No need to even be co-located.
Thanks for the great video.
So...
Meshtastic = guerilla
Beartooth = warlord/militia
goTenna = government
Understood.
Trex, I have to take issue with a few statements on meshtastic. So, who am I to question/correct the great and all mighty "Trex"?...... I'm no one....... And I like it that way. However, I do have 90+ active mesh nodes in my state. For nearly 100% coverage of my state. And I/We have learned quite a lot about meshtastic over the past few years.
First issue- Bat life, you mentioned the Beartooth lasting a "day or more" as though that was/is a "pro"...... You do realize the Old "T-beam" (which are horribly inefficient compared to current designs) will last a week+ with a single 18650? (+- 2500mah nmc bat) With the current energy efficient designs we see 2+ weeks on a single 18650 charge........ Add in a 3 dollar solar panel and you can ignore energy usage completely.... This is of course somewhat dependent in network usage. And strongly dependent on temperature. (Pro tip - Skip both NMC and LFP battery chemistries all together, and go straight to LTO. LTO performance in freezing temps is Orders of magnitude better than NMC or LFP)
Second issue - Range. I don't understand how you're only getting 1-2k out of your system/s. As far as I know the current record is just under 200 miles for a point-to-point connection (LOS @ 1watt). I/We routinely see 100+ mile connections (point-to-point) (early days before we filled in the network). Though to be fair the vast majority of my nodes are 200-300+ feet in the air. That being said; I find it hard to believe 1-2k range with a proper setup and a good antenna. Max +2dbi for a "ground unit", NO MORE than +2dbi. And No more than +6dbi for a fixed node. (intracity, Assuming its up high) However intercity can use +9-12dbi nodes to cover the miles. (Pro tip - Use a +9-12dbi node co-located with a 0-+2dbi node to cover mountain top to mountain top AND cover the valleys between)
Third issue - Network response and data throughput. Sure, you're NOT going to VIOP or facetime over a lora network. However, I vehemently disagree that a lora network is unsuitable for ATAK usage. Sure, it is "sluggish" for 1080p+ rez pics. You simply write your TTP's to minimize large file usage. Aside from large files, we have actually tested send-receive-respond (in ATAK) to +-750ms over 200 miles separation............. How much faster does a network need to be to qualify for ATAK in your eyes? IMO +- 750ms (over 200 miles) is MORE than "fast enough" for tactical operations........
Last issue - The statement of "90% of your network is spent transmitting other peoples stuff" is simply untrue. The only thing on your network are authorized nodes and users. Nothing else.....
What's that blue radio? Is that meshtastic? What case is it?
you can make the meshtastic radios only transmit your own traffic, which is much better for atak
The Beartooth might be a better option. I've seen a few videos where meshtastic has been over saturated with everyone jumping onto them, this has been an issue at a few conventions. There have been a few different modes, but rather than hacking, they could be useless by over-saturating the frequency.
And forcing meshtastic nodes to "out" themselves by sending out traffic and listening to it repeat.
@@T.REXLabs you can change that in the device configuration. in the device role, select "CLIENT_HIDDEN". this role has rebroadcast set to "LOCAL_ONLY", wich according to the documentation, "Ignores observed messages from foreign meshes that are open or those which it cannot decrypt."
How about you send the Meshtastic node up on a tethered weather ballon? No limited battery flight times.
Balloons are only good for temp setups like incident response.
@@daa3417 Fair observation, A lot of use cases people are planning on using this for would fall into an "incident response" category.
Comms down, balloon up.
Find tallest tree, strap a long thin antenna to the top, or use another drone with a repeater to fly to top of tree and land. Seems simpler if the terrain allows.
The lilygo t-echo meshtastic is the closest thing to plug and play in meshtastic world at $55ish yall can see if it works for you for 100 and then see if you want to upgrade or build your own nodes
Have you discussed connecting to LoRa satellites yet?
Have you played with WiFi HaLow?
Like AsiaRF's ARFHL-UM, which is 900Mhz HaLow & regular 2.4Ghz wifi portable mesh device for $180.
i have a question about wifi halow devices......even if internet and whole power grid goes down....could you still use these to communicate with each other?
Yes, so long as you can provide the devices with power via solar, batteries, or a generator. WiFi works just fine as an intranet for local-area connectivity with no link back to the broader internet.
@@Porty1119 thank you. what is the max range in miles?
@@Porty1119 what is max range in miles, and the asiaRF device is what you would recommend?
Beartooth is 90% Meshtastic, plus some proprietary stuff you don't want, for 25x the price. In my opinion, it's the worst of all worlds. I am the guy who looks inside and says, "I can make something better" though.
def not meshtastic. meshtastic is great for hobbyist but radically unsuitable for mission critical.
Just once I'd like the solution not to be "spend thousands of dollars". I guess that's why I bought a bunch of walmart solar spotlights and cheapo lora boards. My buddy and I are setting up a dozen nodes for less than the price of one beartooth. I'm sure the beartooth is nice, just like nods are, but there's a reason we own "poverty pony" AR's
T.Rex Arms does not understand the average consumer. Hence the SCAR-H reviews.
You left out one advantage of Meshtastic that shouldn’t be ignored. If you are operating in an environment that already has a well-functioning Meshtastic network, that network will automatically repeat your traffic and increase your team’s coverage beyond what you would be able to achieve with only your own nodes. You don’t need to coordinate this with other node owners, and they won’t be able to decrypt your encrypted traffic. At the cost of potentially increased congestion, you can experience a massive boost of range by piggybacking off the networks that others have built for their own purposes.
Question for guys who know more about these devices… if someone near you had a similar device, would they be able to receive your information? Like say I’m using a pair of beartooth mk II and someone within range had the same device, would they be able to see my location, see messages sent, voice, etc?
I dont have experience with beartooth, but all 3 options have encrypted comms, wich means that the only people who will "understand" your information are the ones you share the key with. Outsiders can still "see" the signal, but cant decrypt it (my understanding is that the 256bit encryption is bruteforce proof, but can still be badly implemented, leading to possible cracks)
I dont know if this is a feature in other radios, but meshtastic also has a default public channel, so you can use encrypted comms with you group, while also monitoring/interacting with people in your vicinity
Just to clarify, people recording the RF spectrum can see a signal, but cant see the contents. people with similar devices but without the encryption key wont see anything, and, to my understand, their devices wont retransmit your signal
WNC could use this BIG TIME right now.
West happens when star link is available?
The Civilian Defense Industry needs to conjure up a voice encryption unit for Baofengs and ATAK interfaces.
Or a better radio.
FINALLY!
How long will that coupon for Beartooth last? I just don’t have buddies running it quite yet
15:10 - u can't put stand alone devices on a drone of they have a lithium battery. Transporting lithium batteries is a violation of the drone laws.
Work arounds:
Power device from drone power.
Use carbon or nickel batteries.
Or...
Add a strobe to lora unit and consider its primary duty to be a light safety beacon... then it can be powered by lithium since it's for aircraft safety... and where it's secondary duty is coms.
U could also have the unit send flight information.. possibly gps, speed, direction.
Real world testing of these please 🙏
lots done~