It's Worse than you imagine | Greek Fire Unique Tech | Age of Empire II
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- I took some tests regarding the Byzantines Unique tech the Greek fire and came to a very weird conclusion. Greek fire has three bonuses, +1 range for fast fire ships, and also adds 0.5 blast radius to Bombard Towers and increases the radius of the Dromon's blast radius by 0.2. Now stay with me till the end where we will see how fast fire ships are actually worse after researching Greek fire.
What are you thoughts? 
Игры
Fire ships have 0 accuracy and instead a small attack dispersion (basically a cone by how much a missed shot misses) which gives this cone of fire effect.
bc the attack dispersion value is the same so more shots miss over the sprite of the other ship over the longer range bc the cone is bigger. makes sense. a fairly easy fix to slightly tweak the attack dispersion so the cone is the same on a slightly longer range.
side note: the biggest advantage is when you fight in semi choke points and you get a second row of fire ships to shoot so you get way more damage that way. in the open you simply get kited.
True. Sounds extremely situational too.
Your explanation is right. Fire ships fire similar to siege projectiles with no blast radius and awful accuracy.
Similar to siege you say.. Haven't thought that way, you might be right!
Never really heard about this tech being great, always felt like nice to have/win more tech, but this result makes it basically bugged. I think it's the spread, like you said. They can narrowly miss, and galleons don't stack enough to get hit by stray fire, so it's useless in big numbers as well. Interesting find, thank you.
Thank you for leaving a comment, much appreciated!
Bombard tower test wasn’t really fair. Bombard towers are often used as supports to late game fights which means they will prob face lots of trash and large armies.
Also unless there was a patch I missed I remember dramans were often used against lands/naval units. They actually are very effective and some even consider a little overpowered. So the bonus is worth testing in these scenarios.
I do agree with the results of your fast fire test though. Very interesting. Thanks for bringing attention to this.
Thanks for leaving a comment. I think I should give some reasonable tests with Dromons, to figure it out. Maybe I was too quick to make an assumption about them..
Fast fireships with greek fire work as intended and are definitely better than fireships without it. However they require more micromanagement.
1. No one fights with galleons against fireships without hit&run, the plus one range from greek fire enables thr fire ships to attack for long after they closed distance before they have to move again.
2. You now have to actually move your fireships as close as possible to the enemies ships, as otherswise they will just stop st max range begin to attack prevent the other fireships from getting close and making them less efficient. However if you move your fire ships point blank before ordering them to attack first and second row can sttack at the same time and overall just more fireships are able to attack at the same time making them a lot better
As I replied before, a tech shouldn't acquire more micromanagment than already is. We are not all high elo players, a researched tech should help you with more effective stats, not pushing you to more microing. I agree though what the rest of what you said.
Also this tech is usually used in very lategame and at that point u usually stop microing individual units anyway.
The Tower test is lackluster and the Dromon assumption is unfair. But your judgement on the fire ship is on point.
Yes, against typical anti-tower strategies, Greek Fire will not perform any better. Where it performs better is when towers are used as support ranged units to fight against large armies of weaker-than-paladins units, where other units such as infantry or cavalry will be helped in the engagement by this tiny bit of extra splash damage. Basically, if the tower is a support unit, Greek Fire is useful. Probably not enough, but that is another story. And it's the exact same argument to be made for Dromons.
It could be fixed by changing fireship's extra range with extra damage (or a little stackable damage overtime).
Bombard tower's splash damage is decent when there are several towers nearby shooting, so I think that buff is fine (that, or adding a second different attack to bombard towers, similar to the fire tower's).
Dromon's, though you say it is useless, it is not. With good accuracy you can clear incoming enemy fireships or demo.
Let's see if devs check this issue in the future
Maybe the tech silently should also lower the spread of byz fireships. The extra range seems to be not considered with fires' natural spread and therefore tech makes them miss more.
My first though was the same with yours. Instead of increased range, a +1 damage would be better
@@Memphisko that's actually the attack's animation, like a spreading fire. However, that spread, though it is good when fighting another fireships or others ships in tight spaces, if there are few ships there will be a lot of missed damage.
Bombard Tower bonus is probably way more effective against weaker units which usually come in large groups.
True but weaker units will not try to attack bombard tower in the first place
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv that's fair
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv Not sure about that, bombard towers are late game thing, right before trash wars, so it is very likely trash units will try to attack it and those have low hp.
Yes and no. While it does damage to surrounding units, that damage is usually not enough to actually kill them. And as something like a champion (one of the more likely "weaker" units to engage against bombard towers) already dies in one hit, it most commonly comes down to the unit getting weakened by the splash damaged and then getting oneshot by a direct hit anyways. So the impact is still rather low.
That’s what I was thinking
Seems all they need to do to fix this is increase fire-ship accuracy. I doubt that will really impact overall balance.
Did you try testing fire-ship vs fire-ship? I think that may be the one case where greek fire gives a clear advantage.
This also makes me think about what may be the biggest advantage of extra range (assuming it is not fire ship vs fire ship), and the main thing I think of is Demos. Extra range should hypothetically help fire ships kill them on time. But that one extra range is just not enough. So if a buff is really needed, I would argue that Greek Fire's bombard tower effect be replaced with fire ships dealing enough bonus damage to demos that, for example, two/three fire ships, with the current extra range of Greek Fire, can reliably kill a Demo before it gets on top of them. They'll probably still take some damage due to blast radius but it wont be the full force.
Also, I think to use greek fire properly you need to micro your fire ships a little. Keep them together in a ball and then move them right up next to the gally mass. This way, with the extra range, more ships will be able to engage against the same targets than without greek fire. (You'll have some ships firing from the standard range and some ships firing from the extended range) This will create more concentrated fire and should let you snowball the fight faster.
Although you make good points and I would agree on bombard towers replacement with extra damage on demos, I would disagree about the micro. I tech should make your life easier, not push you into trying to micro to even higher degree. Not all player are Hera or Viper. Upgrades should have visible effects even to lower elo player like me.
Other than that I agree with most of what you said.
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv I definitely agree with you on the micro. I was just pointing out that sans an accuracy fix there is still a way to take advantage of Greek Fire. At least in theory.
increasing their accuracy directly would have some unwanted side effects (like them having a chance to randomly hit units behind a building which they can't normally). But having greek fire decrease the attack dispersion (by *how much* they miss the target) could be a way to fix the issue.
@@IschmarVI how would increasing accuracy stop you from being able to hide behind docks and fishing ships? Doesn't matter how accurate you are if a "wall" is in the way.
fix and a small buff would be nice, it still seems as if the bonuses are not worth the resources
Is it possible to change the range of units in the editor? I'm thinking maybe extending the range of the fire ship to something large and seeing the drop-off could be conclusive evidence that it is the spread that is causing the issue.
Yes it is possible but haven't tried it. But you are right maybe it gives a clear view if the fire spread affects damage. Nice idea!
the extra range would be useful in larger engagements-- when a higher proportion of the fire ships can be dealing damage simultaneously. Helps the fire ships benefit from their weight in numbers (transforming from Lanchester Linear to Lanchester Squares calculation). The result would be that it has a slight negative effect in a 1:1 situation, but could be extremely valuable in a 30 vs. 30 engagement.
But as you can see in the video, they lose in large numbers too
4:35 So cool! I would love a SpiritoftheLaw analysis on this effect.
He could figure it out, no doubt
Did anyone send this to him?
Recently played one of the new scenarios for an achievement and i felt that researching that tech lead me to more losses, it also made cannon galeons able to hit my ships so if you arent microing (which is likely in late game) you have a bad time with this tech
I noticed it during a campaign too
Anyone send this to the Dev team to get it fixed? A tech shouldn’t make a troop or unit weaker, Also someone send it to spirtofthelaw
I would like to see what SOT has to say. He is the master of age of empire mechanics after all.
What is the result of fire ships vs fire ships with greek fire?
I don't know, I might have to test it though.
I would assume that they have slight edge
by logic the byz win cause will hit first and then attack at the same range both
Fire ship bonus is more effective in fire ship against fire ship for the same reason as incas kamyuks
Greek fire should also have give more accuracy since fire ships have 0 accuracy to begin with, normally it wouldn’t matter since the range is so short but in this case it does
It's like old Indian cannoneers
Either make them increase the range even more or increase the accuracy/decrease the spread
Alternatively a simple + damage bonus Vs ships and buildings
True. That's what I was thinking.
The devs should work in that, it's insane now that I've seen your video. I would include an additional +25% faster attack to compensate for the accuracy lost. Also increase the blast damage of towers and dromons to 0.5.
If this was auto-battle then the longer range also make the flank ships the closest to more enemy ships. The big battle, maybe the fire ships could go in to being 2 range from the galley front line. 1. Wouldn't hurt them much and in return they in range of 2nd line of galleys already. 2. If the fire is not target but more of a stream of hit-and-miss, you might get a small AoE effect. 3. The fires not in front row would be able to attack too without having to move around the flanks.
Fair points. But again to me sound that it would need extra microing, while a unique tech shouldn't make a unit harder to use.. right?
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv You should try vs fire ships, the value in +1 range should be better than vs galleys that already outranges. To your last point, I think you could find that a britons archer with +1 range would lose to a normal archer, because the briton archer will shot at a moving archer and most likely miss, giving the normal archer the first hit as they now both standing still.
@@jennystrandqvist1568I have a video coming, testing again the fast fire ship and it's range. And the projectiles range in general.
what campaign is 5:10 from?
It's custom made by me. It's the 3rd campaign of Emperor Basil the II against the Fatimids. I will upload a gameplay soon.
Fire ships with Greek fire do better against enemy fire ships (firing first and all that) - my tests found that the effect is more pronounced with large number of fire ships. In 5v5, unit micro is much more important and the advantage is not so clear (it can go either way). With over 20 fire ships, the ships with Greek fire clearly won. In 1v1, I sometimes had the fire ship survive with 1hp, other times mutual destruction (I tested against Byzantine fire ships without Greek fire). It does look like Greek Fire would benefit from a buff (reduced spread on fire ships would fix it nicely - ideally to have the same amount of spread at the increased range as they do at normal range).
Dromons should do better against other ships and units with Greek Fire - though I wouldn't expect any benefit against buildings.
BBTs have high damage, which means large amount of overkill (which makes the splash damage pretty useless when tested in isolation - but my own tests with cataphracts against halbs/paladins suggest that the impact is less than the impact of RNG)
I agree with most of your points. I did multiple tests too and the results were basically the same.
If there is spread, I think it should also be reduced by 50% with the tech. Otherwise the tech upgrade is basically counterproductive.
Exactly.
Interesting video!
THere are some instances in which the upgrade is solid.
Like a choke point, for instance where simply more ships can attack at teh same time if they have more range.
I think for the Dromons the upgrade is also nice.
Not when attacking buildings, of course, but when attacking land units.
I don't have much experience with Byzantine Dromons but I use Roman Dromons and
Armenian Dromons a lot.
And sometimes, I attack archers or siege units with Dromons.
In that scenario a somewhat bigger blast radius could be sick.
But all in all I would not play the Byzantines for their castle techs.
THey have other strengths.
I do believe that in specific situations and choke points, it might be good, in the way you pointed out. But that makes it even more situational. I believe we need something more impactful.
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv Yeah, agreed. It definelty is one of the weaker upgrades in the game.
Ye Tech sucks, if I were to improve I would do this:
1. +1 DMG to Fire ships
2. Bombard towers +1.5 Blast Radius
3. Dromon +0.5 / +1Blast Radius (Depending on how good would it be)
Many have requested for fire ships to gain +1 attack instead of range
I change the tech to an upgrade, like the imperial skirmisher, more hp and damage
@@luismoronigajardoaros8602 nice thinking
I'm your 34th subscriber.
Thank you sir! Much appreciated!
Looks like it night be due to the blast radius similar to a mangonel? Not a big water player, but knowing this I definitely won't get it in my Komnenos campaign game! 😂
A recommendation for future videos: If you want people to believe you having done the tests, put the numbers on the screen. Like "20 tests" and then 20 numbers (+ if own units left, - if opponent units left) of how the tests.
A simple 1v1provides the mosr accurate numbers, in this case generic galley vs byz fire with and without tech as well as byz fireship before and after against generic fireship.
Also consider putting timestamps in your video.
You thought about sharing this in the aoe2 subreddit? It would get a lot more visibility there compared to getting lost in the youtube algorithm.
Thanks for the suggestions, I will definitely get to them in time. I am just new to all these, and advice is more than welcome.
I intended to use 1v1, but I saw that with more units, my point was more clear. And ingame matches would always be battles between numbers.
I could though add the number of tries I did on screen, that's a nice idea. And timestamps of course.
About reddit, I never used it before. Maybe I should give it a try?😅
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv the thing is that 1v1s would give you the least amount of spread due to pathing and rng. You could e.g. clearly tell from 10 tests or even less "against galleons, fireships without greek fire are at 40 or 45hp left, with greek fire it's 30 or 35hp" (there's still a tiny bit of randomness even in 1v1s, but usually only a single hit more or less), then repeat the same against other fireships and the harbor building.
@@couchpotatoe91 you are right on 1v1 but on this particular scenario, and only in this one particular, will not give you results.
Why? Because the "missed" fireball, in mass battles, might hit the enemy ship right next to it, something that will not happen in 1v1.
And only if the "missed fireball" is correct and not just an illusion.
BUT, with that said, I could add a 1v1 just for clarification purposes, I watched again the clip and I noticed too that it would be better with a 1v1 example. Just for reference.
Man, you've got good grasp on things, you are most of the time on point, I appreciate your suggestions🙏
Thet should fix it with the original effect. İnstead of giving useless stats it should give 5 seconds burning effect to all naval and gunpowder unit attacks even just 1 damage per second would be sufficient enough.
Burn effect isn't introduced to aoe4?
I wish t hey would buff that greek fire technology but i 100% bet it will stay without a buff
Το έχουν αλλάξει πολλές φορές μέχρι στιγμής, δεν ξέρεις ποτέ..
If what toy say is true, then it need a fix.
You saw the tests on the video, I'm definitely not lying, you could recreate them yourself if you like. Unless I've made some arithmetic mistake, then it needs fixing.
It seems weird to me too.
This has long been known.
Really? Never heard of it before. Just noticed during a campaign
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv Yea at least since pre-de, likely had just fallen out of discussion since then hence not as known anymore. Saw some video but its been a long time I dont remember where.
@@jcpkill1175 cool info, honestly I didn't know it was already known. But I guess some people must have noticed too long time ago.
Would be important to report it to the devs, say in AoE forum or another way!
I believe that the devs will find out by themselves eventually. They always update little imperfections. Except pathing😅
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv but it would be a nice post!!
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv Further more, pitifully I don't know if the devs actually care about the game or they just follow the tasks of their superiors... Some of them even may not play the game at all.
@@joagalo you think? I don't know. Maybe I should reach out to some forum or something.
why the robot voice instead of your personal voice?
My real voice is crap. See my older videos.
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv no matter how crappy i prefer a human voice over a robot voice
@@ratoimariurs5323 just check one of my custom campaign videos..😅 it's my first ever videos I uploaded. It will change your mind
@@DemonAgeOfEmpires2-wf8lv i have seen and i prefered your actual voice over the robotic ones.
Your analysis is wrong. Not sure if you just want to make clicks or really think that way, but you only took worst case scenarios. Greek fire is defenitely worth it in so many situations. Your unit choice and micro in testing is misleading.
Big mad!
@@thomasbuchovecky171 It's okay to not like things that are lazily or stupidly done.
The dude is a pure content farm. From the fake voice to the lame scripts to the lack of any actual game knowledge, he's just here trying to make money with cheap knockoffs of topics already covered by actual good creators like SOTL.
I really liked the video, but please stop using that stupid AI-voice... Channels that do this are so much less enjoyable than channels with actual voice over.
Its on you, but I wont follow your content like that. Chess channels are doing the same and its terrible.
I use my real voice, people complain. I use Ai voice, people complain again.. But for RUclipsrs that English isn't their native language, it's the only solution. Sorry to hear it was distracting to you but I'm afraid it's something I cannot fix right now.