I love the bit where you are sitting pondering what to do about the rusted polybush and then cut to the appearance of an angle grinder, to the surprise of nobody at all. Really enjoying this series, thanks.
Okay, I need to 'fess up.. The front axle was replaced in 2005, because the old one caught fire and totally let me down on my way to doing sound for Saxon and Dumpy's Rusty Nuts in Monmouth. That's probably why that axle came off fairly easily! ;)
Made my friday night seeing another Project Kermit video uploaded. Glad you got the steering relay out so easily, hoping when I tackle the one on the Series 3 rebuild I have in the shed, that it is equally cooperative!
You jammy git Max, I was settled with a cuppa for a full ten rounds with that steering relay. Top man. Thanks for posting and the time taken to edit and post, appreciate your time.
I’ve started using erbauer diamond discs which are thin steel. They stay the same diameter until they’re blunt and they cut rebar steel sheet whatever. Much less likely to maim you. I recommend them
4 inch cutting discs? How much are they? I’m experienced with cutting discs & I still had one disintegrate not long ago, it was a close call! I’m sure screwfix stock erbauer gear
Great to see you making progress on kermit, at this stage I would be very tempted to invest in a galvanized chassis, but in fairness the original does not look to bad for its age. Thanks for sharing.
It's certainly one of them cars that is satisfying to know you can take it to bits to fix properly, unlike modern cars which are plastic glued together that when it breaks, forget it, much prefer classic metal... :D
I remember years ago taking an old Series two that had been used on a farm into a garage. The apprentice must have totally peed the owner off. The owner put it up on the ramp and told the apprentice to get under and tap the chassis with a hammer. I was going to protest and got a hard look so shut up. Poor lad walked under it and hit the rear chassis hard. It was like a curtain coming down. Amongst the coughing the owner looked at me and said'That bugger has been asking for something like that all week'. For rust treatment have a look at a stuff called Vactan. Water based easy to apply, economic and long lasting. Freezer spray is great for getting bushes out, especially in mixed materials .
Great entertainment as ever, Max (& Mark). I’ve watched you use a ball joint splitter a few times and wondered why you bother. I’ve split dozens of Land-Rover ball joints, and I’ve never yet found one that doesn’t just pop apart when I give the ring a good whack on the side with my 2kg club hammer. Avoids damaging the rubber boots or threads.
I was wondering if you managed to do anything with Kermit and here you are. Great Timing. Ive just needle gunned and painted my chassis due to the old underseal starting to trap water in. Very labour intensive job with lots of tea supping involved! Looking forward to the next episode Max!
One note about diesel fuel, technically it can go "bad", but that's not the fuel's fault, it's often caused by so-called "Diesel bug" which occurs if a layer of water forms in the tank and a bacteria starts consuming it, especially so if it has biodiesel mixed in as most pumped diesel now does, though more affects boats than cars given the proximity to water, but still something to be aware of... :)
"Bad" diesel is easily fixed with a dual-filter system called "polishing". Very common in marine applications. Project Brupeg (an excellent RUclips series about refitting a wrecked fishing trawler) has an episode all about that process. Gasoline (or Petrol) cannot be salvaged when it goes stale. Diesel doesn't do that-- it just gets "dirty".
Yup, similar sitution with Jet A-1 and other aircraft engine fuels of the gas turbine species. It is possible for a plant like fungus to grow in aircraft fuel tanks and that's why they should be regularly tested for water contamination, especially if fuel has been uploaded in third world countries!
Chuck a pint of Parraffin in, also stops waxing. The stuff we used to do before Winterised Diesel were epic. Bury a jerry can in the muck heap overnight, so it was hot to touch the following morning, dump that into the tank, parrafin fired weed gun under the sump. Pile bales around the edge of the vehicle, then put a hurricane lamp or green house garden heater under a bucket in the middle.
I think the previous owner needs a haircut lol . Are you up to the job max :-D The old series 3 got bit of history which nice and sure his dad be glad it getting some work and back on the road . Chassis does look surprisingly good, some new out riggers and it be pretty much done ... The good weather is coming to an end so that going suck . Have fun and keep at it ...
Well done :D Another nice video to help keep me sane, really good to see Mark back again. Very much looking forward to a Project Awesome video some time.
Great to see progress on Kermit and with a bonus Mark appearance as well! Quick question - Are you planning another brewing session in the future? I really enjoyed the last one!
Made my own S1 bulkhead when it was obvious mine was beyond patching up, replaced the entire rear crossmember, and a couple of the outriggers, still loved that truck, paid 750 quid for mine in 1991, stupidly got rid of it to a "mate" that never actually paid for it. This doesn't half bring back memories.
Looks like its got the better rear axle. Not sure how common they are in your neck of the woods but the axles out of a Toyota FJ62 would be a nice upgrade and they fit pretty well too. They would have 4.10 gears vs the land rover which I think are 4.70's.
Someone, cutting, on his roof ,overhanging tin, put the going sidegrinder on his leg. It rotated through his thigh and artery, cutting off a large amount of flesh. Stuck his finger into the artery, threw the grinder. Climbed down ladder, picked up the lump of flesh. Got to hospital, had it sown back in. OK now, 40+ years later.
Max, this is why I enjoy your episodes so much; you're a Renaissance Man. Many skills to manage most situations in a frugal and self sustainable manner. I'm sure there's not many homestead or mechanical issues you can't tackle and your not afraid of thinking outside the box to find a solution. Question: since most of the vehicles I've watched you repair, i.e. The Soviet truck or your land rovers may have sat for periods of time and many bolts are rusted; how long do you allow penetrating oil to work before you attempt to loosen? Just curious. I've left it work overnight in some instances if it's something I can't use heat along with oil to loosen. I look forward to your next episode and you and yours stay healthy and safe. Cheers from across the pond from this old retired coot living in Tennessee.💖 👍 😷 🍻 👀 ✌
Hi Bob, in practice I rarely leave it to soak long, the WD40 is more there for ease of unwinding once it's loosened off. If it's putting up a fight I usually reach for the heat or the grinder!
If you have some really stiff bolts, I found out by accident (it was all I had at the time) soak a rag in old engine oil and disiel, wrap around or lay on nuts. Cover with plastic or cling film and go away overnight. Also takes old paint and rust off.
I'd love some longer video's to, but I'm having a feeling off grid living/ rural internet upload speed might be the first problem. His first 20 hour video is edited and uploading now, it's 95 days into a 3 year upload time. He's hoping the system don't crash 2 hours before it's finished L.O.L
Great content, but PLEASE get a guard on the grinder - I've seen too many horrific injuries by not using them (usually by yanks who always seem know better) ATB Dave
If at first you don't succed get a bigger hammer, to avoid dissapointment always use big hammer. The trick is the weight of the hammer does the work, drop it on don't hit it .
It seems that pretty much everything about Landroveres it completely AWFUL - and yet people still love them to bits!! Funny old thing - life, innit.....??!!
I've found tin roof paint to be ideal for chassis, cheap easy to appply , dosen't cover faults like thick stuff and works very well. Also very easy to inject thin with white spirit and an ordinary parrafin gun gets into the inside of the chassis through any available holes. Any scratches or marks show and can be treated an repainted easily.
That system first came in on 2As. The original chassis was square box four section, but it was a bugger to weld square, so Land Rover changed to to U shaped channel jigged and welded.
My first Landy ( first car, had bikes for years) was only 15 when I got it. 1970 2A in 1985. Crunches wing and the first/ reverse pinion had teeth missing ( so I knew it’d be a gbox out job). £500 , I know I paid a bit too much Ignorance of youth!
That steering relay came out a treat. For the other end of the spectrum, check out Mr Foreman's woes here (stiff drink required): ruclips.net/video/oF_9XvY_b3s/видео.html
Hi, i like your vedieos very much , and a subscriber. One thing i want to know is what is the motorbike you have .i saw a one in the background.thanks. from Sri Lanka.
@@maximusironthumper i had a yamaha xt 250.here the goverment allowed only maximum 250 cc bikes and now only 450 bikes.they said that you cant go over police bike capacity which is now 600 cc.
I bet that air drill thing doesn't really make that noise, and that it's actually max and the spunglemeister adding high- pitched 'brrrrrrrr' type noises to the edit for shitz n giggles.
Oi Max, i know you use bitumen to paint your sheds and that, what do you think of UV/solar reflective bitumen? Iv painted mine with some bitumen and it isnt half bloody hot in there (': considering either that or painting over it with a light gray cheers
He does visit and has even made a cameo appearance at the end of one of my videos (Man builds wall), but sadly he has not been able to visit this year.
it's insane how much Land Rovers are worth in the US. the problem is, most over there buy them for the "style" but very few have the right attitude to ever bother fixing them up.
@@gramursowanfaborden5820 yup, i would love to have an old 1 like that, when was younger they werent that high, but couldnt afford still, now that i can afford a new car an that they are insanely priced
Scary thing is they are worth more as a bag of bits than a whole vehicle now. Fifteen years ago you could buy ten ex army series three petrol vehicles from Witham's for £500 each.
Forth bridge comes to mind. over engineered. i think they use an epoxy paint now. Not sure if it's has zinc in it cow pat and poor steel not envisioned at the drawing board!!!!!
I love the bit where you are sitting pondering what to do about the rusted polybush and then cut to the appearance of an angle grinder, to the surprise of nobody at all. Really enjoying this series, thanks.
Okay, I need to 'fess up..
The front axle was replaced in 2005, because the old one caught fire and totally let me down on my way to doing sound for Saxon and Dumpy's Rusty Nuts in Monmouth.
That's probably why that axle came off fairly easily! ;)
The axle caught fire?
Dumpy's rusty nuts, blimey that takes me back, wearing size 34 jeans and actually having hair worth mentioning...
Caught fire *and* let you down, that's pretty bad! Excellent work with the beard, sir.
Hey, great name checks, I hope to hear you worked for Wishbone Ash too!
Dare we ask how it caught fire?
The relief in you voice when the steering relay moved. Excellent.... and very lucky
The dynamic duo back together again 👍
...momentarily...
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one rocking the hermit look in these plague times.
Thats how we allways looks, you bigot.
Lots of Series Land Rover owners, smiling and nodding in agreement as the Series experience is accurately described!
Nice to know the history and see the care you both have for Kermit.
Hopefully it will last another 50 years+
Just sat down with a fresh mug of tea, and this pops up. Bonus!
yay , Kermit getting some love & good to see Mark
Was good to see Max too!
We haven't worked together for months!
Great video Again Mr IronThumper ❗👌🏻
Made my friday night seeing another Project Kermit video uploaded. Glad you got the steering relay out so easily, hoping when I tackle the one on the Series 3 rebuild I have in the shed, that it is equally cooperative!
"Bludgeon that apart" Lovely word Bludgeon.👍
Really cool to see you progress. Also great you already have the engine and gearbox ready.
Enjoyed the video. reminds me that working on grass is no place to repair a watch bad on the knees
You jammy git Max, I was settled with a cuppa for a full ten rounds with that steering relay. Top man. Thanks for posting and the time taken to edit and post, appreciate your time.
I’ve started using erbauer diamond discs which are thin steel. They stay the same diameter until they’re blunt and they cut rebar steel sheet whatever. Much less likely to maim you. I recommend them
4 inch cutting discs? How much are they? I’m experienced with cutting discs & I still had one disintegrate not long ago, it was a close call! I’m sure screwfix stock erbauer gear
Google it mate. Worthwhile. The thin composite discs break well easy. Too easy to accidentally put a side load on them
Thank you for another excellent video.
Great job. Love the riggers also!
Great to see you making progress on kermit, at this stage I would be very tempted to invest in a galvanized chassis, but in fairness the original does not look to bad for its age. Thanks for sharing.
Good to see you back big fella !
Thankyou Max thoroughly enjoyed that 😁👍
Well done , in need of lots of TLC .
I've never seen one of those stripped down to the frame before, explains the ruggedness of the vehicle 👍
Whilist they are in good condition. They and the bulkheads are prone to Metal Moth.
Land rovers.... endless amusement
Diesel doesn't go off? I never knew that! Useful - thanks
It's certainly one of them cars that is satisfying to know you can take it to bits to fix properly, unlike modern cars which are plastic glued together that when it breaks, forget it, much prefer classic metal... :D
Classic rust?.
I remember you, new age travellers, at Bala and Trecastle digging your trucks out of the mud looked like good fun
I can just imagine you two smashing back bottles of real ale after filming these videos 🍻🍻
I remember years ago taking an old Series two that had been used on a farm into a garage. The apprentice must have totally peed the owner off. The owner put it up on the ramp and told the apprentice to get under and tap the chassis with a hammer. I was going to protest and got a hard look so shut up. Poor lad walked under it and hit the rear chassis hard. It was like a curtain coming down. Amongst the coughing the owner looked at me and said'That bugger has been asking for something like that all week'. For rust treatment have a look at a stuff called Vactan. Water based easy to apply, economic and long lasting. Freezer spray is great for getting bushes out, especially in mixed materials .
Well done max😁👍👏👏👏
That is a nice big project bro...!!
Hi thank you for the video. Eagerly waiting to see the progress and change coming to Kermit, hope it will come every week.
Love ur channel
Great entertainment as ever, Max (& Mark).
I’ve watched you use a ball joint splitter a few times and wondered why you bother. I’ve split dozens of Land-Rover ball joints, and I’ve never yet found one that doesn’t just pop apart when I give the ring a good whack on the side with my 2kg club hammer. Avoids damaging the rubber boots or threads.
You're not alone, people often wonder why I bother!
I could’ve phrased that better. I’m very glad you *do* bother! I thoroughly enjoy all your videos!
It all takes time keep going keep safe and good luck
Damn your lucky with that steering relay ! On my SIIa I had to make a bracket and use a 7 ton bottlejack to persuade it to come out😝
👍👌👏 Well done again!
Best regards, luck and health.
I was wondering if you managed to do anything with Kermit and here you are. Great Timing.
Ive just needle gunned and painted my chassis due to the old underseal starting to trap water in. Very labour intensive job with lots of tea supping involved! Looking forward to the next episode Max!
Well done, keep on posting !
😊👍
The boys are back in town 😆😀👍
Not used to seeing fuel tank fitted in there, looks like good idea.
Nice to see the team back together. =;-))
One note about diesel fuel, technically it can go "bad", but that's not the fuel's fault, it's often caused by so-called "Diesel bug" which occurs if a layer of water forms in the tank and a bacteria starts consuming it, especially so if it has biodiesel mixed in as most pumped diesel now does, though more affects boats than cars given the proximity to water, but still something to be aware of... :)
"Bad" diesel is easily fixed with a dual-filter system called "polishing". Very common in marine applications. Project Brupeg (an excellent RUclips series about refitting a wrecked fishing trawler) has an episode all about that process. Gasoline (or Petrol) cannot be salvaged when it goes stale. Diesel doesn't do that-- it just gets "dirty".
I have found mixing 2stroke oil in with the fuel can help that from happening.
Yup, similar sitution with Jet A-1 and other aircraft engine fuels of the gas turbine species. It is possible for a plant like fungus to grow in aircraft fuel tanks and that's why they should be regularly tested for water contamination, especially if fuel has been uploaded in third world countries!
Chuck a pint of Parraffin in, also stops waxing. The stuff we used to do before Winterised Diesel were epic. Bury a jerry can in the muck heap overnight, so it was hot to touch the following morning, dump that into the tank, parrafin fired weed gun under the sump. Pile bales around the edge of the vehicle, then put a hurricane lamp or green house garden heater under a bucket in the middle.
@@crustycurmudgeon2182 unless you own a Norton Commando, VW splittie bus or 350Jawa two stroke which all quite happily consume 5 year old petrol.
Its been a while since you did a video, welcome back we like your stuff .cheers from Australia
You're making real progress. Stop showing the rest of us up! These projects should take years, not months!
Here's to Kermits next 50 years
Love the content
Max been missing your videos
I think the previous owner needs a haircut lol .
Are you up to the job max :-D
The old series 3 got bit of history which nice and sure his dad be glad it getting some work and back on the road .
Chassis does look surprisingly good, some new out riggers and it be pretty much done ...
The good weather is coming to an end so that going suck .
Have fun and keep at it ...
Well done :D Another nice video to help keep me sane, really good to see Mark back again. Very much looking forward to a Project Awesome video some time.
Great to see progress on Kermit and with a bonus Mark appearance as well!
Quick question - Are you planning another brewing session in the future? I really enjoyed the last one!
Actually diesel does go off if it's biodiesel or contaminated with biodiesel products.
Just big meccano, with added rust!!!
👍🍻🍺🍺
Made my own S1 bulkhead when it was obvious mine was beyond patching up, replaced the entire rear crossmember, and a couple of the outriggers, still loved that truck, paid 750 quid for mine in 1991, stupidly got rid of it to a "mate" that never actually paid for it. This doesn't half bring back memories.
to make you really cry, start adding 0's now.
51WCDodge oh I know, I know 😫
Love your films. Just watched a video from ‘diedineveryfilm’ making a knife from an adjustable spanner it’s clever.
Looks like its got the better rear axle. Not sure how common they are in your neck of the woods but the axles out of a Toyota FJ62 would be a nice upgrade and they fit pretty well too. They would have 4.10 gears vs the land rover which I think are 4.70's.
A guy who worked across the road from us found out the hard way about exploding grinding discs, by losing the use of two of his fingers.
Someone, cutting, on his roof ,overhanging tin, put the going sidegrinder on his leg. It rotated through his thigh and artery, cutting off a large amount of flesh. Stuck his finger into the artery, threw the grinder. Climbed down ladder, picked up the lump of flesh. Got to hospital, had it sown back in. OK now, 40+ years later.
An American joined nailed his pecker to a stud wall with an air nailer, just saying 🤷🏻♂️
Go on, put a Defender steering box on, you’ll never be that close again! 😁
Hello, thanks for the great videos. I also love your boots. Where can i find a pair like these???
Keep it up, true pleasure to watch your work.
Max, this is why I enjoy your episodes so much; you're a Renaissance Man. Many skills to manage most situations in a frugal and self sustainable manner. I'm sure there's not many homestead or mechanical issues you can't tackle and your not afraid of thinking outside the box to find a solution. Question: since most of the vehicles I've watched you repair, i.e. The Soviet truck or your land rovers may have sat for periods of time and many bolts are rusted; how long do you allow penetrating oil to work before you attempt to loosen? Just curious. I've left it work overnight in some instances if it's something I can't use heat along with oil to loosen. I look forward to your next episode and you and yours stay healthy and safe. Cheers from across the pond from this old retired coot living in Tennessee.💖 👍 😷 🍻 👀 ✌
Hi Bob, in practice I rarely leave it to soak long, the WD40 is more there for ease of unwinding once it's loosened off. If it's putting up a fight I usually reach for the heat or the grinder!
If you have some really stiff bolts, I found out by accident (it was all I had at the time) soak a rag in old engine oil and disiel, wrap around or lay on nuts. Cover with plastic or cling film and go away overnight. Also takes old paint and rust off.
@@51WCDodge thanks for the tip👍
Pretty small hammer for a blacksmith!!
these episodes should last at least twenty hours each one...
I'd love some longer video's to, but I'm having a feeling off grid living/ rural internet upload speed might be the first problem. His first 20 hour video is edited and uploading now, it's 95 days into a 3 year upload time. He's hoping the system don't crash 2 hours before it's finished L.O.L
... and lovin it
I picked bits of an exploded slitting disc out of me belly last year. Fortunately my belly deeply covers all important organs.
I also use a 9" grinder when a spanner will do
and after all this work and sweat you'll still end up with a Landrover. ;-)
My first car was a Landy. The only good thing about it was the heater.
Stunned reaction Landy owners! The heater worked?
Great content, but PLEASE get a guard on the grinder - I've seen too many horrific injuries by not using them (usually by yanks who always seem know better)
ATB
Dave
💓Seems I’ve learnt something new, if all else fails hit it with a hammer😃💓
If at first you don't succed get a bigger hammer, to avoid dissapointment always use big hammer. The trick is the weight of the hammer does the work, drop it on don't hit it .
1:50 In other words, some of the rust was structural?
Super unleaded doesn't go off as it has no ethanol in it.
It seems that pretty much everything about Landroveres it completely AWFUL - and yet people still love them to bits!!
Funny old thing - life, innit.....??!!
Can't believe some companies want almost £7.000 for a new galvanized chassis and bulkhead madness....
I've found tin roof paint to be ideal for chassis, cheap easy to appply , dosen't cover faults like thick stuff and works very well. Also very easy to inject thin with white spirit and an ordinary parrafin gun gets into the inside of the chassis through any available holes. Any scratches or marks show and can be treated an repainted easily.
Hiya
Is the chassis from a series 3? That weld along the length of the chassis is what you would expect on a 110 chassis.
That system first came in on 2As. The original chassis was square box four section, but it was a bugger to weld square, so Land Rover changed to to U shaped channel jigged and welded.
My first Landy ( first car, had bikes for years) was only 15 when I got it. 1970 2A in 1985. Crunches wing and the first/ reverse pinion had teeth missing ( so I knew it’d be a gbox out job). £500 , I know I paid a bit too much Ignorance of youth!
That steering relay came out a treat. For the other end of the spectrum, check out Mr Foreman's woes here (stiff drink required): ruclips.net/video/oF_9XvY_b3s/видео.html
Love the video as always. Mark’s got some beard on him now 😂 “COVID-Beard”
Putting the guard back on the grinder mate might help stop you losing your face from disc shrapnel.
Hi, i like your vedieos very much , and a subscriber. One thing i want to know is what is the motorbike you have .i saw a one in the background.thanks. from Sri Lanka.
Hello there, it's an old Yamaha XT600
@@maximusironthumper paris dakar one? I love off road vehicles plus motor bikes.
@@maximusironthumper pls make a viedio on that bike.thanks
@@maximusironthumper i had a yamaha xt 250.here the goverment allowed only maximum 250 cc bikes and now only 450 bikes.they said that you cant go over police bike capacity which is now 600 cc.
I bet that air drill thing doesn't really make that noise, and that it's actually max and the spunglemeister adding high- pitched 'brrrrrrrr' type noises to the edit for shitz n giggles.
Ace bit of story telling.... great to see the old double act back.
Is "horse related stuff" a euphemism for "shite"? ...... ah yes.... it seems so.
Try Pig Related stuff. Dosen't rust metal, dissolves it.
Oi Max, i know you use bitumen to paint your sheds and that, what do you think of UV/solar reflective bitumen? Iv painted mine with some bitumen and it isnt half bloody hot in there (': considering either that or painting over it with a light gray
cheers
I've never used solar reflective coating so can't give an opinion there. I'd probably look first at insulating the inside of the wall.
@@maximusironthumper allright, cheers boss
😳 Were you fond of jigsaws as a kid? 🤭🤣🥳
Meccano.
pickle fork chisel
It could do with a 200tdi
I see Paul Lyons is a patron, is that DJ Paul Lyons from Cardiff?
Does Grandad ever visit he sounds very dear to you.
He does visit and has even made a cameo appearance at the end of one of my videos (Man builds wall), but sadly he has not been able to visit this year.
Are them old ones so insanely priced over there like in the states, the one you currently drive would be 35k here
My daily driver is worth about £3000 on a good day - so no they're not!
@@maximusironthumper that my dream ride, always wanted 1, never afford here, but enjoy watching when you work on them
it's insane how much Land Rovers are worth in the US. the problem is, most over there buy them for the "style" but very few have the right attitude to ever bother fixing them up.
@@gramursowanfaborden5820 yup, i would love to have an old 1 like that, when was younger they werent that high, but couldnt afford still, now that i can afford a new car an that they are insanely priced
Scary thing is they are worth more as a bag of bits than a whole vehicle now. Fifteen years ago you could buy ten ex army series three petrol vehicles from Witham's for £500 each.
Basically scrap then. once they have gone they are gone my opinion only?
I mean, why wouldn’t you just pick up a landy gearbox and walk away? 😂
Do you ever worry you are annoying your neighbour's with the compressor
Reaction to effective enemy fire what neighbours 😁
Max, what is marks RUclips channel? Thanks
Get the gas axe oot lol
some of the maritime channels like Brupeg complain of diesel bug ruining their fuel ?
Forth bridge comes to mind. over engineered. i think they use an epoxy paint now. Not sure if it's has zinc in it cow pat and poor steel not envisioned at the drawing board!!!!!
Why not treat yourself to a Niva instead, be good company for the ZIL and they work !
Unfortunately modern deisel does go off😔, and now you can't get red deisel it's getting more expensive to run deisel vehicles, on or off the road
Chuck a pint of parrafin in, works wonders and stops waxing.
Why is there that big round hole in the rear cross member
For PTO powered equipment. As is the hole in the front crossmember
so you can run a Power take off ( PTO ) from the gearbox/ xfer box to a trailer or anything behind the car
888johnmac I'll have you know that rear hole is perfect for a 4" outlet of a "Wasp" silencer 😉😁
888johnmac thanks that’s what I thought but never have seen it done